discussion: movement ticks 1-50
protomatter
boarding actions and other things to happen. while i know of the
boarding actions occuring before tick 50 i dont recall off the top of
my head the other things that occur prior to movement tick 50 that
would combat not take place.
i think combat should occur anytime two opposing forces come within
range of combat.
it would just seem silly to allow a japanese carrier to pass thru
pearl harbor during world war II unharmed simply because it came and
went prior to movement tick 50. the reality of this situation in game
play allows a weaker opponent to swoop thru a bases orbit drop ground
assault forces without the base being able to fire a single shot to
prevent it. im trying to imagine the normandy invasion without the
beach defenses firing at the landing craft approaching the bases and
waiting til all the ships and troops have unloaded from the allied
fleet before they can fire.which is how Vgap4 plays out.
and why wait so long for a combat to occur.
if its only purpose is for boarding actions then lets change how that
works, and bring weapons to bear on ships. that come within combat
range.
we can change the boarding action by performing a check for boarding
action at 5lyrs first. and determine victory at that point or failure,
if a victory is determined then the ship is now owned by the capturing
player and no combat takes place. if it is a failure then lets see a
combat take place after the boarding action fails. serves them right
for making aggressive actions on our ships and not doing it right the
first time. if your gonna board to take a ship, then board it. dont
dink around with not having enough troops. if your gonna destroy the
ship then destroy it, dont make use of a capture tactic to destroy a
ship simply because you forget to bring ordinance along. again your
failure to meet the needs. and therefore punitive combat would take
place as a failure to do it right the first time.
i imagine this would change a few things such as a single mcbr
boarding a Rush with 1 crew and 1 troop every single turn then moving
away before combat can begin to stall delay deplete repair units. and
eventually destroy the ships hull without firing a shot. something
seems a lil bit off there anyhow. if he is going to take the rush for
a prize then board with the appropriate number of ships and troops in
unison, if it fails which is a risk you have to take, prepare to be
fired upon as your consequence. as it is the game already favors the
attacker, so why provide another loophole (free Escape) for the
attacker who failed to do it right to begin with.
now dont get me wrong, im not saying this for just privateer actions.
i just want combat to occur when ships and bases encounter each other.
if we can come up with a better way for the boarding actions to occur
without preventing combat during ticks 1-50 then im all ears.
Proto
Black No.1
doesn't make sense, even if it was thought as a way of balancing
things -what about no combat at the even ticks? May work, too, and wouldn't
make sense either...
As this issue is closely related to boarding, this has to be adressed, too.
As there has to be a way to allow boarding, what about moving the boarding
action *in* the space combat (if range < x)?
I know some people will shout:" Don't change any mechanics of the game!
Everything is fine!"... ;)
Cheers,
Jochen
Ralph Hoenig
"Black No.1" <keineah...@gmx.de> schrieb
This is how I imagined boading would work when I first came across VGAP-4.
Your boarderer ship moves towards the enemy ship within the VCR, blasting
away at its shields, and when those shields are gone and the range is short
enough its: "Attention Boardingparties, stand by, --- go! go! go!"
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
Black No.1
> This is how I imagined boading would work when I first came across VGAP-4.
> Your boarderer ship moves towards the enemy ship within the VCR, blasting
> away at its shields, and when those shields are gone and the range is
> short enough its: "Attention Boardingparties, stand by, --- go! go! go!"
Same with me. And just as I got used to the fact, I realized that assault
pods can *only* board in vcr...
Cheers,
Jochen
protomatter
glad to see that im not alone in this theory of no vcr before tick
50,
and yes i like the shields actions going down before a boarding
attemot too, but i think races like the privs would be hard set to
put weapons on thier MCBRS and thier ships dont last too long in some
fights. which would mean to strengthen mcbr suvival would cost way
more credits and thus produce fewer MCBRS for the race.
any other alternatives for boarding if the tick 50 no combat rule were
removed?
protomatter
wrote:
i realise also that the benefit of changing the tick 50 rule would be
that its possible to board on tick 155 or even later, if we can
somehow manage to get it to work with apporved effectiveness.
Perhaps an alternative to boarding could be that the ship must enters
combat even if for a brief moment to allow boarding, a brief combat
vcr could be performed by means of quick strike or even use of the
evasiveness of flee enemy attacks, but id rather prefer my previous
idea over this, i only mention this as a possibility to spark some
more potential ideas.
Proto
rumata
> [...]
> we can change the boarding action by performing a check for boarding
> action at 5lyrs first. and determine victory at that point or failure,
I read this as boarding would always occur before (or in) combat.
While the privateers can certainly be annoying, I think this cure is
worse than the disease. It would be an immense boon for all races w.
Battleships with boarding laser and big guest quarters (e.g. borg).
For klingons and romulans it might be a net win too. What strategy
would you use against a cube fleet with full guest quarters?
Cheers,
Michael
protomatter
its pointles to board a borg cube anymore, as the guest qaurters on
borg ships when fillied with assimilated beings or colonists, will now
convert to crewmembers when the ship is undermanned. so unless you
kill everything on board the cube in one fatal swift blow, its
pointless to skirmish board them. but as a borg who boards an enemy
craft well that most likely wont change at all, with the exception
that it could be able to board after tick 50, and instantly replenish
its crew after the action occurs. this would definately add some
advantage to the borg cubes, but when has a cube never been a threat
anyhow. and in this case your talking about a fleet of cubes, most
cases a fleet of cubes wont bother to capture an board ships unless it
has something really nice to offer, such as a nifty ship device, or a
new mode of transport such as hyperspace or gravity drives. the
biggest perk to the borg wasnt the plan im suggesting, it was the
ability to replenish crew from colonists. that was the boon, not
this. in most cases you will need more than one ship to defeat a cube
anyhow, and in this situation it hasnt changed that fact. the boon to
the privs would be the same for all boarding ships, boarding at any
time during movement instead of just the 50 ticks.
alevans
are both in the same place. Combat should also be accross the entire battle,
some sort of relationship with the speed, agility and experience should
determine the order in which actions occur.
"Black No.1" <keineah...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:46ed3531$0$7688$9b4e...@newsspool2.arcor-online.net...
alevans
"rumata" <mmos...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1189985394.5...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
GFM GToeroe
wrote:
> we can change the boarding action by performing a check for boarding
> action at 5lyrs first. and determine victory at that point or failure,
> if a victory is determined then the ship is now owned by the capturing
> player and no combat takes place. if it is a failure then lets see a
> combat take place after the boarding action fails. serves them right
> for making aggressive actions on our ships and not doing it right the
> first time. if your gonna board to take a ship, then board it. dont
> dink around with not having enough troops. if your gonna destroy the
> ship then destroy it, dont make use of a capture tactic to destroy a
> ship simply because you forget to bring ordinance along. again your
> failure to meet the needs. and therefore punitive combat would take
> place as a failure to do it right the first time.
>
Or one has to change the order of transfer, moving and combat check in
the single MPs.
But once there was an issue with BLs because one could board without
combat even after tick 50. This was regarded so strong for Cubes for
example that is was quickly fixed.
If one allows combat at any tick in the MP while preserving the
possibility of boarding before combat then one should have the order
moving, transfer, combat check for the 50 ticks. For the rest the
order should be as it is right now: Transfer, moving, combat check.
And one should think to preserve the abilities of the Falcon and MCBR.
GFM GToeroe
morningstar
> "rumata" <mmoser...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Give the Fed Multiple Sagittarius's full of troops.
protomatter
i agree im not looking to change the other races ability if we dont
have to,
only looking for combat potetnial prior to tick 50
if its possible to to a check for boarding success prior to combat on
the same tick for every tick before tick 51 then id say yes whoo hoo
we have accomplished something, but im not an expert here on the way
the code is laid out. is it possible to do that and allow combat for
every tick possible within the code?
Proto
GFM GToeroe
wrote:
I do not know the code responsible for this. Magik can tell. But I
think it should not be a problem. The more important thing is a
general agreement about the change.
GFM GToeroe
redherring
Just a side note. You can board after tick 50. If you can get
close enough before any combat can happend. I mostly talking about
hyp ships.
Flynx
1. Make combat possible in every movement step.
2. Boarding is possible only in VCRs (is this a constraint to the
general idea?)
2.1 Boarding occurs within a VCR with a certain percentage at every
combat phase tick in which the target is nearer than a certain
distance (like 300). Only one boarding attempt may be possible per VCR
(that's to be discussed: There could be more than one attempt per VCR,
but there are more than one VCR possible per turn anyway)
-> This way the boarding ship can be defeated more easily especially
if it's a small ship (low armor & shield) and a single attacker (or
against a fleet of enemies).
-> Small ships can avoid being boarded by bigger ships if they try to
stay out of boarding range (stay off range).
Problems:
1. How to deal with cloaked boarding ships?
2. The balance has to be checked very carefully. Please contribute
critics to this simple suggestion :-)
Additional thoughts:
- If shield strength of victim lowers wihtin the VCR, the boarding
chance can raise.
- Boarding within the first 50 movement ticks could be easier (to keep
it a little more like it is now).
- Boarding attempts without Boarding Laser (Fed, Stormer) must come
nearer to victim
Black No.1
> 1. Make combat possible in every movement step.
> 2. Boarding is possible only in VCRs (is this a constraint to the
> general idea?)
Wuold be nice - just like assault pods...
> 2.1 Boarding occurs within a VCR with a certain percentage at every
> combat phase tick in which the target is nearer than a certain
> distance (like 300). Only one boarding attempt may be possible per VCR
> (that's to be discussed: There could be more than one attempt per VCR,
> but there are more than one VCR possible per turn anyway
The max. boarding range should be shorter maybe 200?
> -> This way the boarding ship can be defeated more easily especially
> if it's a small ship (low armor & shield) and a single attacker (or
> against a fleet of enemies).
>
> -> Small ships can avoid being boarded by bigger ships if they try to
> stay out of boarding range (stay off range).
> Additional thoughts:
> - If shield strength of victim lowers wihtin the VCR, the boarding
> chance can raise.
What about making the distance dependend on the shield strength of the
defender like
Boarding Range = 200 - (200 * Shield Strength)
100% shield -> range 0
50% shield -> range 100
0% shield -> range 200
> - Boarding within the first 50 movement ticks could be easier (to keep
> it a little more like it is now).
> - Boarding attempts without Boarding Laser (Fed, Stormer) must come
> nearer to victim
Would be nice, too
Cheers,
Jochen
Flynx
you wrote:
> > 2.1 Boarding occurs within a VCR with a certain percentage at every
> > combat phase tick in which the target is nearer than a certain
> > distance (like 300). (...)
>
> The max. boarding range should be shorter maybe 200?
Sure, that was just a first suggestion.
> > Additional thoughts:
> > - If shield strength of victim lowers wihtin the VCR, the boarding
> > chance can raise.
>
> What about making the distance dependend on the shield strength of the
> defender like
>
> Boarding Range = 200 - (200 * Shield Strength)
Nice idea, but then a boarding would be very difficult at first and
especially against strong shielded ships. I think that may be a little
bit to difficult.
> 100% shield -> range 0
> 50% shield -> range 100
> 0% shield -> range 200
But perhaps that's the solution to the cloaked boarding problem: If
cloaking device is enabled just add e.g. 100 to the range (like an
offset).
Hmm, can everybody board if the shields are down? I think so .... what
about adding another 50 to the range if boarding lasers are used?
Flynx
Black No.1
>> What about making the distance dependend on the shield strength of the
>> defender like
>>
>> Boarding Range = 200 - (200 * Shield Strength)
>
> Nice idea, but then a boarding would be very difficult at first and
> especially against strong shielded ships. I think that may be a little
> bit to difficult.
>
>> 100% shield -> range 0
>> 50% shield -> range 100
>> 0% shield -> range 200
>
> But perhaps that's the solution to the cloaked boarding problem: If
> cloaking device is enabled just add e.g. 100 to the range (like an
> offset).
> Hmm, can everybody board if the shields are down? I think so .... what
> about adding another 50 to the range if boarding lasers are used?
>
> Flynx
>
A way to make it harder to board could be to check for boarding only every X
combat ticks.
- the boarder would have to survive and be in range at the next boarding
check.
- the defending ship would have a chance to flee
I would increase the bonus for using a boarding laser (maybe to 200).
So we would have:
Boarding Range = BBR - S + BL + C
BBR (Base Boarding Range) = 200? (HConfig?)
S = (BBR * Shield Strength)
BL = 200 if Boarding Laser is active, 0 otherwise
C = 100 if cloaked, 0 otherwise
A cloaked DS with BL could board a ship with full shield at a distance of
300 an unshielded ship at 500.
Two (nice) implications of the whole new boarding system would be:
* DS would probably be set to a smaller standoff range
* MCBRs would have a reason to switch on their cloaking device for boarding
Cheers,
Jochen
Lord Lancelot
Fed & stormer should get the bording laser range bonus on all their
ship, since their special ability allow them to board without them.
partial cloak should grant + 100
but full cloak should grant at least the same bonus has BL +200
I think 100% cloaked ship should still be able to board before a VCR
start.
Lord Lancelot
Ralph Hoenig
"Lord Lancelot" <pola...@hotmail.com> schrieb
>
> Fed & stormer should get the bording laser range bonus on all their
> ship, since their special ability allow them to board without them.
> partial cloak should grant + 100
> but full cloak should grant at least the same bonus has BL +200
>
> I think 100% cloaked ship should still be able to board before a VCR
> start.
>
> Lord Lancelot
>
How about:
ships that are
a) fully cloaked AND
b) have a Boarding Laser OR
c) are Stormer/Fed
can make a boarding attempt at combat tic 1, regardless of range
On another note: BLs work through fully functional shields as of now, I
donæ„’ see the need to bring shield strength into the equation (except for
boarding attempts without BLs, in which case the shields would have to be
down). So, simply assign a range to the BL as if it would be a weapon, and
once the thing hits the target, itæ„€ "Boarding Party away".
Another advantage if the BL would be treated like a weapon is that
cloakers, which start shooting in VCR before non-cloaked ships, could move
into range and fire the BL before the non-cloakers can shoot back.
I donæ„’ like the range bonus for cloakers, they have advantages enough, I
think. If you use your BL, your no longer cloaked anyway.
Stormers and Feds could attempt boarding at regular BL range without BL.
This is how it is right now anyway. The BLs of those races simply kill some
of the personnel on the boarded ship and therefore make boarding easier.
Just my 2 cents, anyway
Ralph Hoenig, Germany
protomatter
wrote:
> "Lord Lancelot" <polan...@hotmail.com> schrieb
>
>
>
> > Fed & stormer should get the bording laser range bonus on all their
> > ship, since their special ability allow them to board without them.
> > partial cloak should grant + 100
> > but full cloak should grant at least the same bonus has BL +200
>
> > I think 100% cloaked ship should still be able to board before a VCR
> > start.
>
> > Lord Lancelot
>
> How about:
>
> ships that are
> a) fully cloaked AND
> b) have a Boarding Laser OR
> c) are Stormer/Fed
> can make a boarding attempt at combat tic 1, regardless of range
>
> On another note: BLs work through fully functional shields as of now, I
> boarding attempts without BLs, in which case the shields would have to be
> down). So, simply assign a range to the BL as if it would be a weapon, and
>
> Another advantage if the BL would be treated like a weapon is that
> cloakers, which start shooting in VCR before non-cloaked ships, could move
> into range and fire the BL before the non-cloakers can shoot back.
>
> think. If you use your BL, your no longer cloaked anyway.
>
> Stormers and Feds could attempt boarding at regular BL range without BL.
> This is how it is right now anyway. The BLs of those races simply kill some
> of the personnel on the boarded ship and therefore make boarding easier.
>
> Just my 2 cents, anyway
>
> Ralph Hoenig, Germany
i disagree with the whole boarding Range thing, basically in order for
me to protect a valued vessel like....lets say a pax....all i would
have to do is keep my standoff range at 1000 and i would literally be
boarding immune. i think theres possibly a better way than this. i
think it should be odds based, every 100 vcr ticks a check is made to
see if boarding occurs.... boarding had a cchance to occur if A) the
Targets ships shields have taken damage. and b) if the target ships
shields are at or below zero, then boarding is 100% successful. if
shields are at lets say 5% remaining, then the odds drop to 30% and
the odds drop 1 % for success for every 5% of shield strength above
10% the table would look something like:
shield strength odds to board.
--------------------------------------------------
100% 0% if boarder has boardee's UFC or
FC then 100%
99% 10%
98% 11%
97% 12%
96% 13%
95% 14%
94% 15%
93% 15%
92% 15%
91% 15%
90% 15%
85% 15%
80% 16%
75% 17%
70% 18%
65% 19%
60% 20%
55% 21%
50% 22%
45% 23%
40% 24%
35% 25%
30% 26%
25% 27%
20% 28%
15% 29%
10% 30%
5% 30%
0% 100%
or something similar to this. this gives a lil bit of time for the
defender to kill the attacker before being boarder. in addition if
something like this were successful i would like to see somekind of
beam maybe a blue particle beam show or reflect the succes during the
VCR, this way if the beam occurs and the ship still remains under its
owners control. the the owner would then know that the attempt to
board was made and failed.
as for allowing only one ship to board per VCR, this is something i
would frown upon. as in order to board larger ships like the aries
class metal ship or even a borg cube, you would need many mnay ships
to perform the action at the same time. and thus the vcr would reflect
several blue particle beams hittng the cube ship. until either its
captured, or the cube is victorious and destroys the boarding ships.
the idea of VCR combat taking place to introdue boarding actions is
great one, especially if disrpter crew kills and disruptor cannon crew
kills can be calculated during the VCR to reflect a lower crew
complement when boarding actually takes place.
an example: would be that the several deth speculas using disruptors
on an aries class metal ship are killing off large amounts of colonial
Crew, while at the same time the Aries diruptors is killing off large
amounts of Birdmen boparding crew and troops, so now when the boarding
actually takes place, theres less crew and troops actually boarding
the aries, due to the disrupters killing them, while in the situation
the the birdmen boarding parties, while dimished in numbers, only have
to face a dimished number of Colonial crew for the same reason.
anyhow, i seriuosly dislike the range idea, due to the defensive
standoff of 1000 being a good way to avoid boarding altogether.
Proto
Black No.1
>as for allowing only one ship to board per VCR, this is something i
>would frown upon. as in order to board larger ships like the aries
>class metal ship or even a borg cube, you would need many mnay ships
>to perform the action at the same time. and thus the vcr would reflect
>several blue particle beams hittng the cube ship. until either its
>captured, or the cube is victorious and destroys the boarding ships.
I think what was meant is: a ship can try to board its boarding target ship
only once per turn.
In fact I would like it, if you had to set the boarding target by using the
"capture" target.
>anyhow, i seriuosly dislike the range idea, due to the defensive
>standoff of 1000 being a good way to avoid boarding altogether.
I don't think a pax trying to stay away from a DS that has its standoff set
to say 300 will succeed.
Cheers,
Jochen
Magik
between fights that a single object can be in, which is 49 pulses.
The first fight for all objects is set to 49 (which you should have
noticed in your ships logs). Bases can only be in combats after pulse
100. The first fight could be set to a lower value (which I wouldn't
suggest being below 5 for balance).
The idea around boarding within combat is fine, but will be a major
change. However, the current system is based on the difference
between "combat shields" and "movement shields". Ships aren't moving
through space at full shields because it would exhaust too much energy
that should be applied to other things. Where you have energy, you
have an engine and an engine requires fuel. So if you wanted to run
full shields while moving, you would be using extra fuel. Movement
shields in this game is minimal shields to allow going through space
debris and anomalies without harm to the hull. It is only when combat
is eminent that full shields are applied and used. So, this allows
for boarding to happen through the movement shields (where
applicable), which boarding is done up to 5 ly away whereas combat
occurs in 1000 km range.
Magik
protomatter
> applicable), which boarding is done up to 5 ly away whereas combat
> occurs in 1000 km range.
>
> Magik
thats kinda odd then magik, because ships engage in combat up to 5
lyrs away all the time.
if its the same range as boarding then your argument of 1000km makes
lil sense unless 1000km = 5 lyrs
proto
GFM GToeroe
wrote:
In planets you will always find reasons for anything. Combat
triggering at 5lj does not mean that in vcr objects will fight at a
distance of 5lj.
The 5lj distance may be regarded as a condition how close hostile
objects has to be for being able to fight each other. Nothing more but
also nothing less. You may explain it by the minimum distance where
captains can/want to trigger combats. And for the game play it means
that a reasonable high chance of combat events is given. It would be
much more difficult to fight if the distance has to be smaller than 1
or has to be 0. Unforseen rounding errors may have an too big
influcence.
And if the vcr zone is measured in kms, miles, astronomic units, light
years, parsecs or what ever else isn't important, too. For the inner
mechanic of the combat the ratio between the numeric size of vcr zone,
weapon ranges, speeds and accelerations are important.
At the end only the implications for the game play are important.
So I would stop thinking about the five lys or the 1000km. Much more
important is if boarding should be an event of the space combat and
how it should work.
As an first suggestion one may think about if one ADDs boarding events
to the space combat. How they work and when they are allowed.
GFM GToeroe
GFM GToeroe
> 100. The first fight could be set to a lower value (which I wouldn't
> suggest being below 5 for balance).
That's new for me. What's the reason for it? A base should be able to
fight with the orbitting defense in all vcrs.
Gabor
protomatter
it may be new to you gabor, i dont know, but i can assume the
reasoning for ship to combat at 5 lyr and not the base was originally
intended to allow for slaving races to attack the orbitals only and
perserve the population on the below for ensalvement. i agree with you
that bases should fight along side with its orbitals. but it currently
thats not the case.
as for the boarding actions, magik seems to think its possible for a
boarding event to take place within a VCR but indicates it would be a
lot of work for it occur. im not a programmer here but i think someone
should look into a potential program to implement this without the
tons of work. ive often found that in programming, a certain event
that seems to require alot of work, can sometimes be handled in a
different way to achieve the same result. usually based on skill
knowledge and other experiences. perhaps someone out there might find
an easier way to perform this action with less codng or programming.
perhaps gabor has some idea? or some else with experience?
from what i can tell the boarding action during a VCR has the popular
request in this thread. and there isnt much argument to it being
implemented other than the coding. by performing this action we can
bring back the battles occuring in movement ticks 1-50
is there any disagreement to this other than what ive posted?
Proto
GFM GToeroe
wrote:
> On Sep 22, 7:52 pm, GFM GToeroe <g...@gtoeroe.de> wrote:
>
> > On 21 Sep., 18:33, Magik <rickglo...@paulhastings.com> wrote:
>
> > > 100. The first fight could be set to a lower value (which I wouldn't
> > > suggest being below 5 for balance).
>
> > That's new for me. What's the reason for it? A base should be able to
> > fight with the orbitting defense in all vcrs.
>
> > Gabor
>
> it may be new to you gabor, i dont know, but i can assume the
> reasoning for ship to combat at 5 lyr and not the base was originally
> intended to allow for slaving races to attack the orbitals only and
> perserve the population on the below for ensalvement. i agree with you
> that bases should fight along side with its orbitals. but it currently
> thats not the case.
If there is general agreement I think there is nothing what shall
prevent us from this.
>
> as for the boarding actions, magik seems to think its possible for a
> boarding event to take place within a VCR but indicates it would be a
> lot of work for it occur. im not a programmer here but i think someone
> should look into a potential program to implement this without the
> tons of work. ive often found that in programming, a certain event
> that seems to require alot of work, can sometimes be handled in a
> different way to achieve the same result. usually based on skill
> knowledge and other experiences. perhaps someone out there might find
> an easier way to perform this action with less codng or programming.
> perhaps gabor has some idea? or some else with experience?
The boarding code is the space version of ground combat though not of
same size but pretty long, too. It has to be rewritten into a
procedure version to be able to be called from inside the space combat
code. It isn't a minor job. :)
>
> from what i can tell the boarding action during a VCR has the popular
> request in this thread. and there isnt much argument to it being
> implemented other than the coding. by performing this action we can
> bring back the battles occuring in movement ticks 1-50
>
> is there any disagreement to this other than what ive posted?
It is a matter of time available to do this. And other jobs are still
in the pipeline. I would suggest that after imcoporating and testing
the new vcr code we could start with a rule change due to the "no
combat before tick 50" rule.
And there are still bugs to be fixed in the current host.
Gabor
GFM GToeroe
>
> The boarding code is the space version of ground combat though not of
> same size but pretty long, too. It has to be rewritten into a
> procedure version to be able to be called from inside the space combat
> code. It isn't a minor job. :)
Well, just got the following idea:
Just pre-calculate the boarding results in the usual manner, but
without the application to the objects. Then import the boarding
results into vcr andlet them take place under certain conditions
during vcr.
Just a thought.
Gabor
Black No.1
> The boarding code is the space version of ground combat though not of
> same size but pretty long, too. It has to be rewritten into a
> procedure version to be able to be called from inside the space combat
> code. It isn't a minor job. :)
Correct me, if I'm wrong: Assault Pods *do board* in space combat at the
moment?
Cheers,
Jochen
General Khael
which I think is kind of lame. Perhaps assault pods' movement should
be increased in VCRs?
GFM GToeroe
So what? This code is already written.
Gabor
GFM GToeroe
> Yes they board during combat but you better have hundreds of em...
> which I think is kind of lame. Perhaps assault pods' movement should
> be increased in VCRs?
Done in new vcr code...
Gabor
zakmckr...@yahoo.de
>
> Well, just got the following idea:
>
> Just pre-calculate the boarding results in the usual manner, but
> without the application to the objects. Then import the boarding
> results into vcr andlet them take place under certain conditions
> during vcr.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Gabor
Yes, please do the above. ...Maybe the objects are nice enough to not
change their states during combat before the
conditions are met...
ps. Under the conditions that the boarding code is correct and will
not be changed refactoring that part of the code into the vcr is a
work of no more than half an hour, a little bit more with testing, but
that's it...
Magik
The reason is that it was determinet that bases should only be
involved in 2 combats per turn. This is the solution for that.
Tada! It's...
Magik
GFM GToeroe
In earlier days you told more exciting...
Gabor
GFM GToeroe
> The reason is that it was determinet that bases should only be
> involved in 2 combats per turn. This is the solution for that.
And why only two vcrs per turn for a base?
Gabor
Amaranthine
Because a single, poorly armed, ship in orbit around a base could deal
an unholy amount of damage to any base without Ion Cannons, if it
could attack every tick (or even every 5 ticks).
Black No.1
news:1190579369.8...@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
And that boarding code for Assault Pods can't be applied to ships?
Btw. If there are 2 identical code bits in use that alone should be a reason
to refactor it and make it a seperate procedure.
Cheers,
Jochen
GFM GToeroe
wrote:
Yes, thanks, slowly I'm remembering the whole discussion...
So right now we have one vcr with tick>=100 and one at tick=200 for a
base. And when one wants to combine base defense with orbital defense
(which were set to "guard base") the opponent could send in a sinlge
ship at tick 100. Then the "orbital remover fleet" comes in and at
tick 200 the remaining objects fight against the base again.
What if the objects in "guard base" are handle like the base so that
in any case they fight in the same two ticks like the base?
GFM GToeroe
protomatter
Makes absolute sense to me, and its what we would like to see, but
that still leaves the base open to ship devices that occur during
movement, such as ships gaurding the base being towed away and ships
being boarded while in the protection of the port. and ships landing
assault troops on a base right under the very noses of those ships
gaurding the base. what would you do for this instance? if the ships
and bases fight together after tick 100
GFM GToeroe
wrote:
> > What if the objects in "guard base" are handle like the base so that
> > in any case they fight in the same two ticks like the base?
> Makes absolute sense to me, and its what we would like to see, but
> that still leaves the base open to ship devices that occur during
> movement, such as ships gaurding the base being towed away and ships
> being boarded while in the protection of the port. and ships landing
> assault troops on a base right under the very noses of those ships
> gaurding the base. what would you do for this instance? if the ships
> and bases fight together after tick 100
I haven't thought about it in detail, but I wonder how a ship which is
triggering vcr at a distance of 5 to a base and which is destroyed can
setup a ground force on the planet's surface. Or do you refer to
something different?
And on the other hand a base shall not be an undefeatable fortress.
If a ship sets up a ground force which won't be destroyed the next
turn (before ground assault phase after movement) then this is ok. If
a there is nothing left to destroy the Cube then it is ok if it begin
to assimilate the personnel. If an earth quake trigger cannot be
destroyed then it shall do its work.
And if someone can tow away the Gorbie without being destroyed then it
is ok in my eyes.
Or do you refer to something really different?
Gabor
protomatter
in the case of no combat with a base before tick 100 and the ships at
the base are set to defend base......
enemy ship enters orbit of base at tick 40 where no combat takes
place, because its too early, drops assault pods, grabs the gorbie
with a tractor beam and tows it away, while fleet two enters within 5
lyrs of the base at tick 102 or so and engages the bases defense, with
no ships protecting it because the gorbie is towed away.
im trying to picture how a ship can enter orbit tow off a ship inside
the port, without the port firing a shot to prevent it.simply because
it occured before tick 100
proto
GFM GToeroe
wrote:
> in the case of no combat with a base before tick 100 and the ships at
> the base are set to defend base......
> enemy ship enters orbit of base at tick 40 where no combat takes
> place, because its too early, drops assault pods, grabs the gorbie
dropping pods would be ok.
> with a tractor beam and tows it away, while fleet two enters within 5
I always wondered how easy a Death Star can be towed away by a fly. It
is not the core subject here but a point which needs a tweak...
> im trying to picture how a ship can enter orbit tow off a ship inside
> the port, without the port firing a shot to prevent it.simply because
> it occured before tick 100
Well, I have the image of a "surprise attack" in my mind. Something
like this should be possible depending on the hull's and ship's stats
(and maybe race stats).
Gabor
protomatter
granted a cloaked vessel could perform such actions as a surprise
attack, but not so likely by a highly visable aggressor such as the
crystals or even the borg.
at any rate if a ship were to be boarded or towed before a base VCr
could begin, then whats the point in going thru all the riggamajig to
add a switch defend ground base? it would become obsolete very fast.
GFM GToeroe
wrote:
I think it is ok if you can board them. But it is not ok to tow them
away too easily. But that is more a problem of tow formula.
Let's summarize what one could do:
1) Skip the strict combat free first 50 ticks. I could imagine an
order transfer-combat check-movement for the first 50 ticks. Then
transfer-Movement-combat check. And/or The combat check could be
modified by a probabilistic condition which leads to an increasing
combat chance the more ticks have passed.
2) Let object which are set to "guard base" be handled like bases (if
the vcr breaks off over a planet with a base) so that they are in the
same vcrs like the friendly base.
3) In vcr objects which are set to guard base can only be targetted if
the attacker is "in orbit", i.e. within a 400 distance to the
center.
4) Re-model the tow contest formula so that massive objects with many
and strong engines (and maybe good generators = high total power)
cannot be towed away too easily.
In addition the new guard base algorithm lets base guardians leave the
orbit if there is no hostile fire at a friendly base. And they return
if the enemy is firing at the base again. And further more enemies
have to be in range of the base defense before they can fire at a
base.
Would that help?
Gabor
protomatter
im thinking allow 4 VCRS per base,
but only one VCR per 50 ticks, or 2 per 100 ticks
option 1
option2
1 vcr allowed before tick 49 2 Vcr's allowed prior to
tick 100
another allowed between 50-99
another allowed between 100-149 2 vcrs allowed between tick
101-200
another allowed between 150-200
this would solve the problem much easier i think
GFM GToeroe
If you want to allow vcrs before tick 50 then you also have to declare
what shall happen to the ability to board before combat. And how would
you handle the trick that a single unimportant ship uses up the
allowed vcrs of a base during a given interval before the main fleet
comes in the same interval?
Gabor
protomatter
as discussed in this thread, many people agree that a boarding action
take place during the VCR, and not before.
if all 4 vcrs are used up, then the invading fleet is sitting in orbit
alongside the port and the defender ships until next turns VCRs take
place at tick 1 and so if they happen to drop landing forces, then
both bases will be in th same orbital fight for the next 4 VCRs of
that turn.
GFM GToeroe
What many people agree and what can be done are to different pair of
shoes...
>
> if all 4 vcrs are used up, then the invading fleet is sitting in orbit
> alongside the port and the defender ships until next turns VCRs take
> place at tick 1 and so if they happen to drop landing forces, then
> both bases will be in th same orbital fight for the next 4 VCRs of
> that turn.
So you don't mind that a single ship come in at tick 34 fight against
the base and the orbital defense. Then at tick 45 a main attacker
fleet only fight the orbital defense. And then after tick 50 the
attacker fight only the base. Or do I miss something (this way I have
understood your suggestion)?
Gabor
protomatter
no that i do mind, but i thought you had that fixed with the " defend
base switch "
if its set to defend base, then attacks against those vessel can only
take place if the base participates.
the ships and bases are tied together. at least thats my impression of
your "defend base switch" otherwise (i know i said this before) whats
the point of the switch if it can be bypassed, routed or made
obsolete.
proto
protomatter
yes after the 4 VCRS are done, only ships that are not tied to the
base, or not set to "defend base" can still be angaged as often as
needed..
but u cant engage ships that are set to "defend base" but 4 times per
turn when the base is participating in the battles. thats it, its
done, no more attacks on those perticular ships. and this should
include docked wings, wings docked to the base and wings docked to
those specific ships assigned to defend the base.
GFM GToeroe
Ok, then I misinterpreted the statement "Just add 4 vcrs per base per
turn. This is much easier."
Gabor
protomatter
lol yeah i can see that now you showed,me the flaw in the grasping of
text.
it makes sense now yeah?
proto
GFM GToeroe
wrote:
> lol yeah i can see that now you showed,me the flaw in the grasping of
> text.
> it makes sense now yeah?
Yes. Let's see if we can press out further code from Magik... ;)
Gabor
zakmckr...@yahoo.de
> In earlier days you told more exciting...
>
> Gabor
I am afraid but the whole thing has something to do with the vcr...
And therefore you should know why my posts concerning this are
unexciting... If a certain offer would never had been made it would
have been different.
But then it seems as everything concerning the vcr is under control
(luckily no one can see me while I am posting this, as it is difficult
to keep a straight face while posting this)...
And then especially funny is that quiet a few people thing that there
are only two vcr combats per turn which can include the same base,
maybe that is now the case, but then again probably not (it was not
the case for a long time - you can calculate the time frame during
which that was without doubt not the case yourself)...
GFM GToeroe
> I am afraid but the whole thing has something to do with the vcr...
> And therefore you should know why my posts concerning this are
> unexciting... If a certain offer would never had been made it would
> have been different.
Still moping?
> (luckily no one can see me while I am posting this, as it is difficult
> to keep a straight face while posting this)...
And perhaps it is better this way...
>
> And then especially funny is that quiet a few people thing that there
> are only two vcr combats per turn which can include the same base,
> maybe that is now the case, but then again probably not (it was not
Not with host210. I've seen three so far..
Gabor.
zakmckr...@yahoo.de
> Still moping?
Why would I be? Or have been for that matter? - I did just give you an
explanation, as you seemed to be complaining about the unexciting
post.
> Not with host210. I've seen three so far..
And you probably do not know when these combats were triggered, too
bad... There are quiet a few obvious explanations...
Have I already mentioned that you and the others seem to have
everything under control? Nearly all problems are fixed, super working
base defenses (especially Ion Cannons and such), no problems with ie.
the strength of the fighters vs. ships, no problems with the fighter
movement, no problems with with the weapon strengths, no problems with
small bugs in the vcr code, no problems with the attack settings, no
problems with the targetting options (especially the weights...), no
problems with the movement patterns of ships, etc. All of you must
have been awfully busy to get the vcr into that shape... Respect...
Great work.
GFM GToeroe
> On 25 Sep., 21:13, GFM GToeroe <g...@gtoeroe.de> wrote:
>
> > Still moping?
>
> Why would I be? Or have been for that matter? - I did just give you an
> explanation, as you seemed to be complaining about the unexciting
> post.
>
> > Not with host210. I've seen three so far..
>
> And you probably do not know when these combats were triggered, too
This is not my job atm.
> Have I already mentioned that you and the others seem to have
> everything under control? Nearly all problems are fixed, super working
> base defenses (especially Ion Cannons and such), no problems with ie.
> the strength of the fighters vs. ships, no problems with the fighter
> movement, no problems with with the weapon strengths, no problems with
> small bugs in the vcr code, no problems with the attack settings, no
> problems with the targetting options (especially the weights...), no
> problems with the movement patterns of ships, etc. All of you must
> have been awfully busy to get the vcr into that shape... Respect...
> Great work.
Not a single line of the new vcr stuff is in the current host.
Gabor