Borg wormholes
David Goodenough
> They [The Borg] will be the race that controls warp chunneling..the
> ability to open controlable "wormhole"like gateways in the subspace time
> continum and travel any distance using 50KT of fuel.....
Unless this is controlled, it would make them close to unstoppable. Imagine
a fleet of super freighters able to jump from a starbase to "mineral mine"
planets and back again, for a total cost of 100 KT of fuel.
Now, he wants to expand. Send out a bunch of small freighters as "throw
away scouts." find a likely planet, send in some super freighters with
colonists and supplies, and some medium freighters to move the stuff
around (tech 1 engines would be great: use once and colonize).
And that's not counting what happens when you start sending monster cubes
through. If the warp wormholes behave just like current hyperjump of the
B200 (et al), you've just given the game to the Borg.
There *IS* some limit on this, right?
dg
---
+ SLMR 2.1a #1246 + SOA - the Society for the Opposition of Acronyms
David Rusell Killingsworth
Yes there are limits...the Firecloud is the only ship that can open a
chunnel. There needs to be one at each end of the chunnel. Whe a
chunnel is started both fireclouds can not move (or be towed). The
Firecloud is the only ship that burns fuel (other traveling ships burn none)
If a ships comes out of a chunnel it has NO SHIELDS that turn. The
chunnel strips the shield systems and leave them inoperative that
turn...so catch em coming out of the chunnel.
See firecloud...make firecloud go poof.
The game will not be given to the Borg. Tim and I spent at least 4-5
hours discussiong this new abitlity. We think we thought of every
concieveable way to include it while maintaining a workable game
balance. It was mainly designed to provide a mineral super highway for
faster development.
Oh by the way when a FC opens a chunnel it goes with anyother ships to
the destination point. So if you dont have a FC left behind you are
stuck where you go. ooops
Dave Killingsworth -- Echo Press
Patrick Stewart
>a fleet of super freighters able to jump from a starbase to "mineral mine"
>planets and back again, for a total cost of 100 KT of fuel.
Lizards beware... finally.
>Now, he wants to expand. Send out a bunch of small freighters as "throw
>away scouts." find a likely planet, send in some super freighters with
>colonists and supplies, and some medium freighters to move the stuff
>around (tech 1 engines would be great: use once and colonize).
If I'm right, Fireclouds are supposed to be the ships that warp chunnel,
and only if they're made at the same 'base.
>And that's not counting what happens when you start sending monster cubes
>through. If the warp wormholes behave just like current hyperjump of the
>B200 (et al), you've just given the game to the Borg.
Better then giving the game to the Privateers...
Anyway, the solution is to increase the cost of a Borg cube
(((<<<***+++---!!@#BIGTIME#@!!---+++***>>>))) and perhaps the armaments as
well to make the cost a bit more worth it. Perhaps it should jump less or
something...
-Patrick Stewart
Sean O'Connell
> The game will not be given to the Borg. Tim and I spent at least 4-5
> hours discussiong this new abitlity. We think we thought of every
> concieveable way to include it while maintaining a workable game
> balance. It was mainly designed to provide a mineral super highway for
> faster development.
>
> Oh by the way when a FC opens a chunnel it goes with anyother ships to
> the destination point. So if you dont have a FC left behind you are
> stuck where you go. ooops
Nice additions/limitations. The Imperial Assault sounds a little scary
(with it's immunity to ATT/NUK), but then so did the Borg chunnel at
first--B222 opens chunnel at the cost of just 25kt fuel at each end, all
the ships went through intact, and the chunnel ships remained in place...
and that's why there's playtesting.
Reservations aside, I like the idea of revitalizing lower tech ships.
The dominant theme to winning seems to be "build (or steal if you're the
Privateers) the best/most tech 10 ships that you can and hope you've built
enough." I can see Instrumentalities and other low tech capital ships
becoming key because it'd just take too much fuel tracking down Fireclouds
and Super Star Destroyers with the 600-1,000kt monsters. It puts more
strategy into the game and a little less advantage to a favorable starting
position (such as being close to an insectoid planet to get an early jump
on the tech levels).
-------
Sean O'Connell When the going gets tough, the tough get caffinated.
se...@hacks.arizona.edu
The only suprises for a pessimist are pleasant ones.
David Rusell Killingsworth
generating a warp chunnel.
And the imperial assualt can only occur after clans are dropped. So you
have to sit there one turn...uhhh oh...and the 80 cargo limitsx you to 70
fighters as cargo...you are only 8-3 and can be bait for most 8&3 or
better torp ships....even 6&3's
Dave Killingsworth
PS> Limited fuel is a bitch too.
Ludwig Goller
>Just for clarification the Firecloud is the ONLY ship capable of
>generating a warp chunnel.
Hmmmm. Suppose I am the Privateer and steal two Fireclouds.
Does that mean I'm able to generate my own warp chunnel?
Ludwig
--
Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy
forget in time that men have died to win them.
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Belrose The Blue
>>> They [The Borg] will be the race that controls warp chunneling..the
>>> ability to open controlable "wormhole"like gateways in the subspace time
>>> continum and travel any distance using 50KT of fuel.....
(snip)
>>There *IS* some limit on this, right?
The ultimate one; disable it with hconfig (at least I assume it can be
disabeled...)
>Yes there are limits...the Firecloud is the only ship that can open a
>chunnel. There needs to be one at each end of the chunnel. Whe a
>chunnel is started both fireclouds can not move (or be towed). The
>Firecloud is the only ship that burns fuel (other traveling ships burn none)
>If a ships comes out of a chunnel it has NO SHIELDS that turn. The
>chunnel strips the shield systems and leave them inoperative that
>turn...so catch em coming out of the chunnel.
>See firecloud...make firecloud go poof.
Interesting. Big question; what order does chunneling take place in? Before
towing, movement, combat? I think the order is important and may make the
difference for overall effectiveness.
>The game will not be given to the Borg. Tim and I spent at least 4-5
>hours discussiong this new abitlity. We think we thought of every
>concieveable way to include it while maintaining a workable game
>balance. It was mainly designed to provide a mineral super highway for
>faster development.
Not to insult you or anything, but I have every reason to believe that others
will be spending FAR more than 4-5 hours trying to figure out how to use/abuse
the ability. The ability to move ANY size force, ANY distance for only 50kt
of fuel scares the heck out of me. The advantages this presents are
staggering.
Oh, by the way, in the 4-5 hours did you figure out that from the info I have
seen on it, it can be used to completely eliminate the effectiveness of the
crystal web mines?
Anyway, I'll reserve judgement on it, but I am skeptical.
David Rusell Killingsworth
Yep sure can. The only thing that Privateers and Crystals can not do in
the new host 3.2 (not released yet) is clone enemy starships.
Hope that answers your questions.
Dave Killingsworth
Alvin
DR> can not do in the new host 3.2 (not released yet) is clone
DR> enemy starships.
Do you mean by 'cloning' starships:
1. I have a MBR at my starbase, and I want to copy it. It will cost me
2x what it costs to build another one though.
2. I have NOTHING at my starbase, but I want to build a MBR. I can do
so without ever owning the ship..
please clear up my confusion on this topic. Thanks.
alvin
Martin Jennings
}have to sit there one turn...uhhh oh...and the 80 cargo limitsx you to 70
}fighters as cargo...you are only 8-3 and can be bait for most 8&3 or
}better torp ships....even 6&3's
Dave,
I take this statement to mean that the Imperial Assault can only
be done from one ship, and I take it that this ship is the SSD.
Also, when are we (the Europeans) going to get our hands on the new VGAP
manuals et al?
Cheers
--
+==+ "Nuke them 'til they glow and
| | Martin Jennings then shoot them in the dark"
+=== ===+
| | aka tho...@dxcern.cern.ch
+=== ===+
| | The Swiss Mercenary "If you are not paid for doing it,
+==+ Le Mercenaire Suisse then it is not worth doing"
Autour de nous il tombe des bombes, plus besoin de creuser nos tombes.
On est tous des morts en vacances, mais on s'en fou ce soir on danse.
- Michel Berger/Luc Plamondon : Starmania/Tycoon
Dave
crazy...but the cost is a bit much and you are NOT ALLOWED to clone any
ship you can build for your self...only clone enemy ship designs.
Dave Killingsworth
Kaj Laursen
Dave> Yes, as long as you have the $$ and minerals you can clone
Dave> liek crazy...but the cost is a bit much and you are NOT
Dave> ALLOWED to clone any ship you can build for your self...only
Dave> clone enemy ship designs.
Dave> Dave Killingsworth
The cost is the _normal_ ammount of minerals and double amount of MC?
If so, i dont think it is a bit much. Just ask the Lizards. Normally
MC is not the problem, so i know that i would clone like crazy. And
why the exception 'only enemy ship designs'? Don't make much sence,
does it?
I have to say that i totally agree with Tomas Voigt. If Tim wants to
make a lot of changes, then change what is really nessesary - the vcr
program, the ship limit, the use of friendly codes etc. and call it
version 4.0. Forget the compatibillity with 3.0.
Kaj
Andrew Sterian
Dave <st...@ecst.csuchico.edu> wrote:
>Hey guys, the version number is just semantics....who really cares that
>number we put on it. The new stuff is supposed to be compatible with 3.0
>and will clean up most (probably all, if my bug list is complete and as
>far as I know it is) if not all of the bugs in the current host (ie super
>spy/damage) and the like. So I guess for the sake of arguement it needs
>to be 3.5 since it has fixes and is still running a lot like 3.0.
Why don't you post your bug list to this newsgroup. This way we can let
you know about any bugs the net knows about but you don't.
And one more question...will there be a new VCR coming out with 3.2/3.5?
If not, then all of the combat bugs are certainly not fixed.
Andrew.
THOMAS VOIGT
unet!zib-berlin.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!voigtgob
From: voig...@cs.tu-berlin.de (Thomas Voigt)
Newsgroups: alt.games.vga-planets
Subject: Re: Borg wormholes
Date: 17 Nov 1994 18:38:06 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
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Message-ID: <3ag7ue$n...@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
References: <dpgCz4...@netcom.com> <3a196h$j...@charnel.ecst.CSUChico.EDU>
Reply-To: sp...@dobag.in-berlin.de
NNTP-Posting-Host: birka.cs.tu-berlin.de
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st...@ecst.csuchico.edu (David Rusell Killingsworth) writes:
>>Unless this is controlled, it would make them close to unstoppable. Imagine
>>a fleet of super freighters able to jump from a starbase to "mineral mine"
>>planets and back again, for a total cost of 100 KT of fuel.
(...)
>Yes there are limits...the Firecloud is the only ship that can open a
>chunnel. There needs to be one at each end of the chunnel. Whe a
(...)
>The game will not be given to the Borg. Tim and I spent at least 4-5
>hours discussiong this new abitlity. We think we thought of every
>concieveable way to include it while maintaining a workable game
>balance. It was mainly designed to provide a mineral super highway for
>faster development.
Hmpf. Under normal circumstances it will _help_ the Borg, but now
imagine a game with wormholes ! Wormholes are fun, but if the Borg are
in the game and can send just one Firecloud to the edge of the
universe they will really, really strong. I hope warp chunneling
will be configurable ?
Thomas
--
----------------------------------------------------
If your server's not responding, perhaps you should.
----------------------------------------------------
Thomas Voigt sp...@dobag.in-berlin.de
Kaj Laursen
I will try to express my thoughts about all these new features of
version 3.5/3.2. I have to say that i only know what i have read on
this newsgroup, so i may be wrong. If my message is not clear, please
tell me, and i'll try again.
What i discussed with Dave was the new ability to clone ships. You
can clone any number of ships at one star base in one turn for a cost
of twice the normal megacredits and the normal amount of minerals. There
is a exception that you can not clone your own ships. I said that this
exception dosnt make sense.
Dave> Sure it makes sense....since you can not clone your own
Dave> ships, this will help keep down the Lizards advantage...no
Dave> mass production of hissers...and if you can only clone enemy
Dave> designs...well then cloning will be less likely to be
Dave> abused...except of course ina team game, but the new host
Dave> has caps on max ammount of creds that a planet can produce
Dave> in one turn...and a few other balancing factors to bring the
Dave> Liz money back under control.
The problem is that in the game, there is some rules that define the
universe where we play. These rules does not need to have something to
do with the "rules" in our world, we all accept that a ship can go 84
(yes, 84 :-) light years in one month. The problems only surface when
the rules of the game are inconsistent. I think it is inconsistent
that you can clone (read: build in some way) enemy ships, and not in
the same way build your own ships.
I think you (that is Tim and Dave) have a problem. You introduce some
features, but then you have to introduce a lot of exceptions. Now you
tell me that there will be a max amount of credits a planet can
produce in one turn - Why? Where does this rule fit in the rules of
the "universe." The answer is that it dos'nt. Its just an exception
that you have to introduce to not make the lizards to powerful.
You says there will be no mass production of hissers for lizards -
well they can just use some "enemy" ship design for hissing. And mass
produce them, _double the numbers each turn at just one star base_.
"Balancing factors" (read: exceptions to the general rules) SUCK! Try to
make the general rules fair from the start. Thats why i think you
should not introduce all these new features (and exceptions) but make
the version you have now work the way it's supposed to do.
>> I have to say that i totally agree with Tomas Voigt. If Tim
>> wants to make a lot of changes, then change what is really
>> nessesary - the vcr program, the ship limit, the use of
>> friendly codes etc. and call it version 4.0. Forget the
>> compatibility with 3.0.
>>
>> Kaj
>>
Dave> Hey guys, the version number is just semantics....who really
Dave> cares that number we put on it. The new stuff is supposed
Dave> to be compatible with 3.0 and will clean up most (probably
Dave> all, if my bug list is complete and as far as I know it is)
Dave> if not all of the bugs in the current host (ie super
Dave> spy/damage) and the like. So I guess for the sake of
Dave> arguement it needs to be 3.5 since it has fixes and is still
Dave> running a lot like 3.0.
The version number is just semantics. But what we are saying is that
you should not make it "run a lot like 3.0." But, lets see the bug
list so that we can comment. And a complete list of the new features
in 3.5/3.2 would be really nice too.
Dave> As for 4.0 it will be REALLY REALLY different from what you
Dave> have now. Mobile starbases (maybe hint hint) and I created
Dave> 15 new races late last year and part of this year...the new
Dave> races will be involved in the game..15 new guys will all
Dave> unique abilities. Fun hunh.....
Forget about new races, mobile star bases and such. Concentrate on what
you work on now.
Dave> Dave Killingsworth
Kaj
Andrew Sterian
Dave <st...@ecst.csuchico.edu> wrote:
>Dont forget...about ION storms...a ton of little hissers could dissapear
>in a flash of ion gas charged particles and thus balance is
>restored...would you invest that kind of $$$ in cloned ships if they
>might go poof..and you $$ is limited a bit...no (maybe) but you see where
>the balance is trying to assert itself.
I don't think that inserting more randomness (i.e., Ion Storms) into the
game is a good idea. Randomness takes away from the skill and strategy
of the game (imagine playing chess when you knew that on each move
there was a 1% chance of your piece just magically disappearing). The
real source of randomness (and fun) in the game is the actions of the
other players.
>I am still waiting for people to send me their bug lists for compiling
>and work....the 3.2 host is going to be ready for beta soon and I need a
>list ASAP as someone feels inclined to help.
And we are still waiting for YOU to post YOUR bug list. Why should we help
you if you won't help us.
Andrew.
Belrose The Blue
>Hmpf. Under normal circumstances it will _help_ the Borg, but now
>imagine a game with wormholes ! Wormholes are fun, but if the Borg are
>in the game and can send just one Firecloud to the edge of the
>universe they will really, really strong. I hope warp chunneling
>will be configurable ?
Even without wormholes the borg can have fireclouds all over the map. All
they need to do is send their hyperdrive ship out 350 ly, find natives,
assimilate them, set up a base, build a firecloud, chunnel in a cube for
protection while this new neighbourhood gets developed properly. Repeat.
Dave
Well it was designed the way it is for a reason.....your best
defense...keep the fireclouds out...intercept them and lay mines....if
you keep them out then they cant chunnel onto your head.
DONT PANIC
dAVE
Dave
Andrew Sterian <aste...@quip.eecs.umich.edu> wrote:
>In article <3aiic7$2...@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>,
>Dave <st...@ecst.csuchico.edu> wrote:
>>Dont forget...about ION storms...a ton of little hissers could dissapear
>>in a flash of ion gas charged particles and thus balance is
>>restored...would you invest that kind of $$$ in cloned ships if they
>>might go poof..and you $$ is limited a bit...no (maybe) but you see where
>>the balance is trying to assert itself.
>
>I don't think that inserting more randomness (i.e., Ion Storms) into the
>game is a good idea. Randomness takes away from the skill and strategy
>of the game (imagine playing chess when you knew that on each move
>there was a 1% chance of your piece just magically disappearing). The
>real source of randomness (and fun) in the game is the actions of the
>other players.
Well they are not really a random factor...they WILL show up and they
will move. You will see them coming from a long ways off (outside the
star area) and theyhave predictable courses (3.5 will project them) and
you can get out of the way really fast and wait for it to go by....not
random ..you have to plan ahead and take these factors into
consideration...we just up the strategy requirements and long range
planning required of the game...heheh
>
>>I am still waiting for people to send me their bug lists for compiling
>>and work....the 3.2 host is going to be ready for beta soon and I need a
>>list ASAP as someone feels inclined to help.
>
>And we are still waiting for YOU to post YOUR bug list. Why should we help
>you if you won't help us.
>
>Andrew.
My bug list is not yet compiled..or ready to be posted....do not want to
post it for all to see....they need to be kept secrect to keep from
abuse...I dont want people to POST to me...just E-mail me so that we can
get them fixed in the host...if that is too much trouble I understand and
I would expect that there should be no bitching about 3.2 when it comes
out and still has a bug in it....
I will post in short hand some of the bugs and those who know them will
underdstand (PS> Thanx to the 3 persons who have sent lists already
THANX)
SUPERSPY>damage
Xtra move
left side
fed refit ( neg num)
crystal midas touch (not actually a bug)
torp ->fighter self destruct
fighter vaporization
repair after ship vs ship but before ship vs planet (also not a bug)
That should do for now
dAVE
Kaj Laursen
Dave> In article <KAJ.94No...@napier.iesd.auc.dk>, Kaj
Dave> Laursen <k...@iesd.auc.dk> wrote:
>>>>>>> "Dave" == Dave <st...@ecst.csuchico.edu> writes:
I dont think you quite understood what i wanted to say, so ill answer
this even though i perfectly agree with the comments Andrew (Andrew
Jones (lr...@unb.ca)) posted to this.
>> I will try to express my thoughts about all these new features
>> of version 3.5/3.2. I have to say that i only know what i have
>> read on this newsgroup, so i may be wrong. If my message is not
>> clear, please tell me, and i'll try again.
>>
>> What i discussed with Dave was the new ability to clone
>> ships. You can clone any number of ships at one star base in
>> one turn for a cost of twice the normal megacredits and the
>> normal amount of minerals. There is a exception that you can
>> not clone your own ships. I said that this exception dosnt make
>> sense.
>>
Dave> Sure it makes sense....since you can not clone your own
Dave> ships, this will help keep down the Lizards advantage...no
Dave> mass production of hissers...and if you can only clone enemy
Dave> designs...well then cloning will be less likely to be
Dave> abused...except of course ina team game, but the new host
Dave> has caps on max ammount of creds that a planet can produce
Dave> in one turn...and a few other balancing factors to bring the
Dave> Liz money back under control.
I any game i have played i have been in an alliance of some sort. Just
exchange your good shipdesigns and clone away. Andrew is right that
this is very unbalancing. It destroys the major concept of one
star base, one ship produced each turn.
>> The problem is that in the game, there is some rules that
>> define the universe where we play. These rules does not need to
>> have something to do with the "rules" in our world, we all
>> accept that a ship can go 84 (yes, 84 :-) light years in one
>> month. The problems only surface when the rules of the game are
>> inconsistent. I think it is inconsistent that you can clone
>> (read: build in some way) enemy ships, and not in the same way
>> build your own ships.
Dave> What "rules" are you talking about. There is a set of
Dave> predefined conditions. These are the limits of the HCONFIG.
Dave> You accept these conditions when you read the Host DOC file
Dave> and decide to use that particular host.
The rules in the game. They define a universe where the game takes
place. This universe has to logical consistent and intuitive. In
vga-planets it is not. The 500 ship limit has no logical explanation
in the universe of the game. Neighter has your new rules that you can
only clone enemy ship designs. Or that the lizards has some maximum
amount of tax money on the planets.
Dave> Everybody screams about game imbalance here and there, well
Dave> Tim and I are doing our best to eliminate gross imbalances.
Dave> If we wanted to call "rules" or "realities" look at the
Dave> ships in the game. In all "reality" the Gorbie should be
Dave> able to waste many many ships....It doesn't ....why ??
This is not the reality that i want - _you_ define the reality by the
rules of the game. This reality has to be believable. This is what
makes movies like Star Wars and (especially) Blade runner very
good. The world they display is believable.
(Dave explains how the current hiss mission of the lizards makes the
game unbalanced.)
Dave> Yes money allone can not win the game everytime (look at the
Dave> FEDS) but $$$ like that, coupled with 200% mining can give
Dave> away the game too quickly. Balance needs to be maintained,
Dave> even if it means a change.
Then change it in some way that is more logical. Andrew had a great
idea.
Dave> The rules will not be inconsisent. They are setdown before
Dave> you use the new host. They are predefined and very clear.
It does not look that way to me. Again, this might be because i dont
know all about the new host. The problem is that you dont want to tell
me all about the new host.
(a lot of discussion where i agree with Andrews comments zapped)
Dave> A complete list of new features is too long for me to post,
Dave> and I really dont have that kind of time...I have posted
Dave> many partial lists and explanations....a complete,
Dave> documented, and explained list of new features is available
Dave> inthe VGA Planets Complete Users Manual (yes by me) and that
Dave> is by far the better source of clear and accurate
Dave> info....pulling it out of my head while on-line does not
Dave> lend itself to being FULLY explained..and the manual gives
Dave> exact (precise) descriptions and instructions.
I dont know if its just me, but i read this as a "if you want to know
more you have to pay me." I dont like that. When version 3.5/3.2 is
ready, is the registration going to include complete documentation, or
do we have to buy your book as a manual?
Dave> Peace and long life,
Dave> dAVE
Kaj
Kaj Laursen
Dave> In article <3aimiv$m...@zip.eecs.umich.edu>, Andrew Sterian
Dave> <aste...@quip.eecs.umich.edu> wrote:
(Talk about ion storms deleted)
Dave> Well they are not really a random factor...they WILL show up
Dave> and they will move. You will see them coming from a long
Dave> ways off (outside the star area) and theyhave predictable
Dave> courses (3.5 will project them) and you can get out of the
Dave> way really fast and wait for it to go by....not random ..you
Dave> have to plan ahead and take these factors into
Dave> consideration...we just up the strategy requirements and
Dave> long range planning required of the game...heheh
Well, they are created randomly right? Thus they only hit some random
players. Sounds random to me. And the sound like real trouble to the
players it hit.
Dave> dAVE
And just one more minor thing. Could you please not use all those ...
I think it makes it harder to read what you write.
Kaj
Dave
definitely an incorrect statement. The new info section of the manaul is
to big to post, and I have more or less posted all of the stuff in pits
and pieces by now, look for it.
Sure Tim and I are in this to make a profit, but I never really expected
to make that much money off of the net people. From what I have read
there are a lot of you that yell and scream over the 15$ registration
fee. And if someone will complain about 15$ for a game this cool, I know
they wont buy a manual and I am not really concerned. The new people who
are registering daily and buying manauls, though, will quickly catch up
to the regular players level of knowledge. They will learn many of the
nasty tricks and strategies that can make them good players.
You may not like or approve of the manual, but the newbies will and I
think they will quickly have many people looking over their shoulders and
wondering how did bozo suddenly start competeing.
SOAP BOX OFF!!!
Sorry for any irritation that appears in this or sarcasm but well I
needed to vent a bit.
Have a good game
Dave
Mythar
Dave <st...@ecst.csuchico.edu> wrote:
>
>Well here is a nice little suggestion on cloning. If you are playing a
>team game turn it off. This is the design crews suggestion. Hmmmm that
>was easy.
yeah. like, instead of making the e/s bonus "balanced", just turn it off.
so, now you have TWO useless major features. hmm.. that was easy.
>
>The maximum tax rate applys only to the lizards..to keep hissing in
>line. The exact % has yet to be determined.
>
well. how about if you set a (perhaps configurable) limit on how many
hissers you can have per planet? it makes more sense than the kludge-and-
a-half you described above.
--
>>>fi...@rahul.net<<< today's tidbit: "The Necromancer didn't care whether
you were a Dragaeran or an Easterner, a Jhereg or a Dragon. To her, you
were either living or dead, and she got along better with you if you were
dead." -- Steven Brust
Dave
Andrew Sterian <aste...@quip.eecs.umich.edu> wrote:
>In article <3allbi$g...@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>,
>Dave <st...@ecst.csuchico.edu> wrote:
>>Sure Tim and I are in this to make a profit, but I never really expected
>>to make that much money off of the net people. From what I have read
>>there are a lot of you that yell and scream over the 15$ registration
>>fee.
>
>verdict is virtually unanimous that the price for this game is a real
>bargain. What people are complaining about, by my estimation, is:
>
>1) Having to pay an extra fee to register 3.5 just days/weeks after having
>registered 3.0 (if Tim has a cheap upgrade policy then by all means post it
>and calm the masses)
Well 3.0 has been out for quite a while and if people are worried about
just registering and then having to upgrade...wait a few months and just
buy the upgrade, which I think is a better interface than 3.0 (yes I have
got to see some of it already)
As for upgrading it is as follows. Registered users upgrade for 15$ and
newbies are 20$. This is to cover more disks, programing and a nifty
quick reference and starup guide (although this part was cheap since I do
work so cheap. And before anyone says anything, it is not left out stuff
from the manual, but a nice neat startup install paphlet like you get in
professional software.
>
>2) Having to pay 150% of the game price for a manual which does a good
>job of describing the game (I'm assuming) when this information should
>have come with the game itself. (Note that you made a marketing mistake
>by announcing this as a product sanctioned by Tim. Had you said that this
>manual was an independent product, people would not have perceived it
>as an attempt to squeeze some extra $$$ out of players)
>
Well in all honesty the info did come with the game. Albeit kind of bad
docs. Tim did not have access to me at the time the game was released or
he may have made 3.0 include the manual but the game would have cost more
than 15$. Look at it this way your buy the game and the manual you have
invested 35$ in a great game, with support (like me ;) that you do not
get from other games. 35$ is pretty cheap and Tim keeps maintaining
price breaks fro registered users.
As for the manual, sorry it is 20$ but the cost on the thing is a bit
high. 67wt paper (heavy and durable) is expensive, color ink for the
printers is expensive, burning up a printer (yes it dies) about every 450
manuals is expensive, and no I did not do the manaul out of the goodness
of my heart, though I thought about it <G>. Basically the cost to
produce the manual is a hell of a lot higher than on the game itself.
Sorry but there was no way around it. We wanted to do the manual at 15$
or 12$ but that was impossible.
>What you're encountering with the net people are customers whose standards
>are higher. When we buy a software product, not only do we expect the
>software itself to be of high quality but we expect the same from the
>documentation. Paying extra for good documentation tends to make us
>a little cranky :-)
>
Sorry, but there is enough NEW and INTERESTING info in the manual that
even you long time players could find it useful.
It was originally intended of newbies, but I thought we could make it so
that even disciminating long time players could get some use out of it.
So hence the technical section was born. Also the strategy section and
hints could be stuff yuo guys have not thought of. I complied it out of
info from some of the nastiest VGAp BBS players in the world. Has I had
access here when I was writing I would have asked for you input as well,
but again not an option at that time.
The tech stuff includes, a complete and detailed sequence of host events.
The hints and stuff are things like, how to increase the cost to your
enemy the theft of starships (part 1 and 2), hiding movements, tracking a
supposedly untrackable starship, stopping the tow, and hinst for each
race, Fascist quick kill strat., wolf pack, handicapping your enemy with
probes, team tactics, how to protect your web mines, nasty medium ships,
hypering RGA on the fly, and more...
>Don't discount us "net people". We've got more disposable income (on
>average) than the BBS crowd and are just as happy paying the $15 for
>what we consider a good game. The flack that you're taking on this
>newsgroup has to do with the implementation quality of the game, not the price.
well from what I have read here it can only go up....;)
3.5 will be a serious improvement on implementation, but yuo gotta window
it. This was not done to piss you guys off. The majority of the free
world is actually using windows. Tim said his research said that DOS
market share keeps shrinking while windows is growing but yuo have to go
where the people are and windows will allow a, basically inept user to
play the game and isn't that a goo thing ?
>
>And hey everybody, ease up on this Dave guy. You may not agree with what
>he is saying but at least he's speaking up on behalf of Tim and establishing
>more contact with us "net people" than Tim ever has. This is a Good Thing(tm).
>Let's not drive Dave away.
>
Thanx. Not going anywhere I will be here as lomg as Tim feels it is
necessary for me to try to keep you all informed and on track about whats
happening. Coming here was his idea to benefit YOU GUYS. I don't really
enjoy the headaches but I am will ing to try to help bridge the gap
between here and there. <--eeeewww sounds kinda liberal don't it...ick.
Would you believe that I spent almost 3 hours on today answering e-mail
and net stuff.......and I call in twice a day anyway.....ohhhhh tired.
Dave Killingsworth
scm!@svnsav <hand cramp
reacher
>** Host 3.2 is free and only the 3.5 interface requires registration**
>The maximum tax rate applys only to the lizards..to keep hissing in
>line. The exact % has yet to be determined.
Suggestion: make the <max happy points from hissing per planet> configurable,
Then each group can decide how to limit this ability.
reacher
Dave
Well here is a nice little suggestion on cloning. If you are playing a
team game turn it off. This is the design crews suggestion. Hmmmm that
was easy.
The maximum tax rate applys only to the lizards..to keep hissing in
line. The exact % has yet to be determined.
The host will have docs. Whether they will be as good as the
documentation in manual is unknown, I am not writing them. Tim is...hehhehe
I know a lot of the internet guys wont buy the manual and this does not
concern me. (its already selling like crazy) The information that is in
it on strategies hints is very good, but if you feel that this info is
not worth the $$ that is fine, but I would appreciate it if you have not
read it do not denigrate it. That is the sureest sign if an ignorant
person and we all know the VGAP players of the world are the smartest 1%
o the population (except of course for one guy we play with
locally...dumb as a nail andhas been playing for a year and still can not
colonize)
sighhhh
Good luck in your games, and just sit back and be patient the host will
work and it will be good and if you dont like something just turn it off
and loook no problem.
dAVE
Andrew Sterian
Dave <st...@ecst.csuchico.edu> wrote:
>Sure Tim and I are in this to make a profit, but I never really expected
>to make that much money off of the net people. From what I have read
>there are a lot of you that yell and scream over the 15$ registration
>fee.
Nobody's complaining about a $15 registration fee. In fact, I think the
verdict is virtually unanimous that the price for this game is a real
bargain. What people are complaining about, by my estimation, is:
1) Having to pay an extra fee to register 3.5 just days/weeks after having
registered 3.0 (if Tim has a cheap upgrade policy then by all means post it
and calm the masses)
2) Having to pay 150% of the game price for a manual which does a good
job of describing the game (I'm assuming) when this information should
have come with the game itself. (Note that you made a marketing mistake
by announcing this as a product sanctioned by Tim. Had you said that this
manual was an independent product, people would not have perceived it
as an attempt to squeeze some extra $$$ out of players)
What you're encountering with the net people are customers whose standards
are higher. When we buy a software product, not only do we expect the
software itself to be of high quality but we expect the same from the
documentation. Paying extra for good documentation tends to make us
a little cranky :-)
Don't discount us "net people". We've got more disposable income (on
average) than the BBS crowd and are just as happy paying the $15 for
what we consider a good game. The flack that you're taking on this
newsgroup has to do with the implementation quality of the game, not the price.
And hey everybody, ease up on this Dave guy. You may not agree with what
he is saying but at least he's speaking up on behalf of Tim and establishing
more contact with us "net people" than Tim ever has. This is a Good Thing(tm).
Let's not drive Dave away.
Andrew.
Sami Nikander
>I am still waiting for people to send me their bug lists for compiling
>and work....the 3.2 host is going to be ready for beta soon and I need a
>list ASAP as someone feels inclined to help.
Just my 2 pennies worth (we don't use cents in Finland ;-)...
I'd LOVE to help fixing the bugs - to keep the best game I know
as fresh and exciting as you describe it, BUT:
I haven't systematically gathered a list of all bugs I have noticed.
Neither do I have TIME to spend hours right now just playtesting
with myself to remind me of all of 'em. Umm... what I'm trying to
say is, that I do know some bugs, but when asked to list them,
I can't - you know, the usual exam effect :-)
I bet this is the situation with lots of other guys around here, too.
It takes a lot of time to compile a complete list of bugs you have
noticed during the YEARS of planeteering - and you should know it!
So: why in the world should we all invent the wheel again?
Is there any reason you wouldn't want to publish the complete
list of known bugs in this group?
It would help both us and you. First, we wouldn't have to spend
our time just scratching our heads and wondering if we have recalled
all the bugs...
Second, which I believe is important to you, do you really insist
on receiving hundreds of bug reports, in which most of the listed
items are already known to you, but you still have to go through
all of them? Didn't you just mention, that you nowadays spend
all your time here in the Net monitoring our whinings... Isn' that
enuff :-)
If you would post the list publicly, you would only get replies
with bugs that are already NOT on the list. Am I right or am I right?
>Peace and long life,
Yep! We wouldn't want to cause Tim a heart attack, would we :-)
So get off your soapboxes, everybody... VGAP isn't perfect,
and neither will 3.2/3.5/4.0/17.54 be... but it's fun!
(yeah, I agree with most of the criticizing here, but let's
give the author a break... AND YOU, DAVE, POST THE DAMN BUG LIST! :-)
--
Sami 'Niksu' Nikander Computer Science, Physics, whatever...
nika...@cc.helsinki.fi University of Helsinki, Finland
Andrew Jones (lrpr@unb.ca)
2 jumps). Thus, a fleet of cubes will be able to trash opposition
on one side of his empire, then jump to the other in a turn (as the
fireclouds follow the advancing cubes) and trash the other side.
That is a terrific advantage for anyone - not to have to split
their forces - and will be a killer.
Andrew Jones (LR...@UNB.CA) "##include <standard disclaimer>"
------------------------------------------
| "Give up, Earthlings! Your superior |
| intelligence is no match for our puny |
| weapons!" |
| (The Simpsons' Halloween II Aliens) |
------------------------------------------
Andrew Jones (lrpr@unb.ca)
>Well here is a nice little suggestion on cloning. If you are playing a
>team game turn it off. This is the design crews suggestion. Hmmmm that
>was easy.
was not cumulative with building, I'd have left it in and it would have
been a neat feature. sigh.
>The maximum tax rate applys only to the lizards..to keep hissing in
>line. The exact % has yet to be determined.
>The host will have docs. Whether they will be as good as the
>documentation in manual is unknown, I am not writing them. Tim is...hehhehe
>I know a lot of the internet guys wont buy the manual and this does not
>concern me. (its already selling like crazy) The information that is in
>it on strategies hints is very good, but if you feel that this info is
>not worth the $$ that is fine, but I would appreciate it if you have not
>read it do not denigrate it. That is the sureest sign if an ignorant
Yes, I am ignorant, BECAUSE I HAVE NO INFORMATION. Ignorance has
nothing to do with intelligence.
And I am not willing to buy something sight unseen. Perhaps some
kind soul could post a review of the manual? No copyright-infringing
quotes, please, just a book review.
Andrew Jones (lrpr@unb.ca)
>As for the "if you want to know more pay me" comment, this is wrong and
>definitely an incorrect statement. The new info section of the manaul is
>to big to post, and I have more or less posted all of the stuff in pits
>and pieces by now, look for it.
pieces, and that doesn't tell me anything about the quality of the
writing.
>Sure Tim and I are in this to make a profit, but I never really expected
>to make that much money off of the net people. From what I have read
>there are a lot of you that yell and scream over the 15$ registration
>fee. And if someone will complain about 15$ for a game this cool, I know
>they wont buy a manual and I am not really concerned. The new people who
>are registering daily and buying manauls, though, will quickly catch up
>to the regular players level of knowledge. They will learn many of the
>nasty tricks and strategies that can make them good players.
FYI, many "net people" (myself included) are the "gateway" to VGA-P
for a number of BBS'ers, and many of us are hosts. Thus, you are
underestimating your market. I've never screamed over $15, not have
the many people I've turned on to the game (we're ALL registered).
And more power to the newbies who learn quickly - more opponents
for me :).
>You may not like or approve of the manual, but the newbies will and I
>think they will quickly have many people looking over their shoulders and
>wondering how did bozo suddenly start competeing.
I never said I didn't like it - just that I don't buy something sight
unseen, especially if I've been burned before (like by Tim's docs).
And I don't think the game is complicated enough that we sharks will
worry about a "bozo" (how unkind) suddenly learning to compete -
I for one welcome the challenge.
Andrew Jones (lrpr@unb.ca)
>In article <3aimiv$m...@zip.eecs.umich.edu>,
>Andrew Sterian <aste...@quip.eecs.umich.edu> wrote:
>>In article <3aiic7$2...@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu>,
>>Dave <st...@ecst.csuchico.edu> wrote:
>>>Dont forget...about ION storms...a ton of little hissers could dissapear
>>>in a flash of ion gas charged particles and thus balance is
>>>restored.
>>I don't think that inserting more randomness (i.e., Ion Storms) into the
>>game is a good idea. Randomness takes away from the skill and strategy
>>of the game.
>Well they are not really a random factor...they WILL show up and they
>will move. You will see them coming from a long ways off (outside the
>star area) and theyhave predictable courses (3.5 will project them) and
>you can get out of the way really fast and wait for it to go by....not
>random ..you have to plan ahead and take these factors into
>consideration...we just up the strategy requirements and long range
>planning required of the game...heheh
>
Well, that's more than we have heard about them before. Could you
possibly post a complete description of this goody?
>>>I am still waiting for people to send me their bug lists for compiling
>>>and work....the 3.2 host is going to be ready for beta soon and I need a
>>>list ASAP as someone feels inclined to help.
>>And we are still waiting for YOU to post YOUR bug list. Why should we help
>>you if you won't help us.
>>Andrew.
>My bug list is not yet compiled..or ready to be posted....do not want to
>post it for all to see....they need to be kept secrect to keep from
>abuse.
Once again, I fail to see how you can be ready for Beta if you
haven't even compiled a bug list for the current version. The comment
about "abusable" bugs is valid - but surely there are very few of
those that haven't become public already (I've only heard of 1...).
>.I dont want people to POST to me...just E-mail me so that we can
>get them fixed in the host...if that is too much trouble I understand and
>I would expect that there should be no bitching about 3.2 when it comes
>out and still has a bug in it....
I think the idea behind posting is that we end up sending you only
the REAL bugs - not what newbies think are a bug, because they don't
understand the game mechanics. Nonetheless, I will be happy to work
on this project, even without help from Dave - anyone out there want to
send ME your bugs, and I'll compile a list? 1 bug per email, please,
as that makes it easier to manage the resulting files. Also, I won't
be answering most of the mails, as that would often be redundant.
>
[shorthand bug list snipped]
>crystal midas touch (not actually a bug) if it's NOT a bug, and you
aren't going to get it fixed, mind explaining it?
>repair after ship vs ship but before ship vs planet (also not a bug)
Documented in your manual, I presume?
Dave
Andrew Jones (lr...@unb.ca) <LR...@UNB.CA> wrote:
Dont forget...about ION storms...a ton of little hissers could dissapear
>>
>possibly post a complete description of this goody?
OK ION STORMS
The Hconfig will allow you to set the max number of ION STORMS in the
game. I think minimum is 1.
An IS is a cloud of charged ION gas that roams the echo cluster. It
(they) start off of the map (approx 500 LY from stars) and you can see
them coming. They will ahve a charge rating. The higher the # the
nastier they will be. The lower the less nasty.
They have a warp speed from 3-15. And have predictable and projectable
courses. (3.5 projects it for you)
If your ships encounter and IS they will have a chance of survivng it
based on crew experience, and power of the storm. The more experienced
your crew the better your chances of surviving.
IS will disbale cloaks, cloak minefields from sensors and damage your
ship (not if experienced crew)
What is experience ?? OK you kill ships get exp., you move around (the
llarger the ship the more exp.) or you perform alchemy functions. Tim
has said there willbe a few surprises instore insode IS, but wont tell me
what they are (I guess he wants a few things for all to discoveron their
own).
Note: If IS are disabled in Hconfig the new ship build queue will be
disbaled.(my idea heheheh)
As they travel they will either get stronger or weaker. If they get
stronger they will shrink in size, gain power and increase in warp
veloc. If they are weakening they will slow, weaken and get bigger.
I think thats it.
>>My bug list is not yet compiled..or ready to be posted....do not want to
>>post it for all to see....they need to be kept secrect to keep from
>>abuse.
> Once again, I fail to see how you can be ready for Beta if you
>haven't even compiled a bug list for the current version. The comment
>about "abusable" bugs is valid - but surely there are very few of
Ok I was fibbing a bit, I had my list but wanted to see who was willing
to help me out and who was not. Bad thing to do I know but it was what I
wanted to see filter out. I posted my listt (later after the message
this is quoted from). Sorry for that.
>[shorthand bug list snipped]
>>crystal midas touch (not actually a bug) if it's NOT a bug, and you
>aren't going to get it fixed, mind explaining it?
This is only pertinent in a team game. When the Crystals lay a web field
in another races code (yup this works, although other race web fields do
not drain 25KT a turn, they only drain the 50KT/or 1/6 remaining fuel if
struck), they can do something very cool.
If they lay a torp (web) in another code, while in the ally web field the
entire field will change to the new race.
>>repair after ship vs ship but before ship vs planet (also not a bug)
> Documented in your manual, I presume?
Yup. In the hints and strategy section pg 68.
>
Man yuo ask many questions kimosabe
Dave
Dave
want ta. All I ask is that you don't quote important stuff, you know
copyright violating stuff.
Thanx
Dave
PS> I know you dont need my permission just wanted to encourage a
possibly hesitant person to go ahead a post a glowing a wonderful review ;)
Dave again
Falko Poiker
> And just one more minor thing. Could you please not use all those ...
> I think it makes it harder to read what you write.
writing style. I don't think that asking him to stop using "..."
is in any way relavent to what we're debating here.
Falko
_________________________________________________________________
Fresco's Discovery:
If you knew what you were doing you'd probably be bored.
Dave
Belrose The Blue <bo...@gov.nb.ca> wrote:
>Dave, you keep commenting on how your beta testers are some of the best
>players in the world. That may well be, but it sounds like they completely
>miss out on the MOST IMPORTANT aspect of the game; diplomacy. Do they never
>trade ships willingly? Do they never cooperate and form alliances (in a
>non-'team' game of course)? I am assuming they do some. If they do, it
>surprises me to see this 'cloneing' ability still on the drawing board. The
>nice thing about trading is that you are in control of the supply (not the
>demand, just the supply). With cloning, if you trade away a ship you are no
>longer in control of the supply either. Consequently, it will greatly
>deminish (if not completelyt kill) my desire to trade.
>
Well the group at warp speed does play standard games now and then but
after over a year of playing each other (always the same8-10 of us) we go
sick of beating each other up, no one would trust anyone else, loopholes
were the talk of the cluster and bam....we became know by tim as the
nastiest and most cuthroat place to play.
So we started to takeon BBS vs BBS challenges. One bbs with its best 5
players vs andother BBS's best 5 players. These have become very very
fun and challenging.
We would like to try it out some of hte netters here who seem to be or at
least claim to be very good, but I still cant do file transfers with this
thing.
Some names for a challenge that come to mind are Scott Emery, Andrew
Sterian and a few others...
>One last comment to you Dave. Why did you link several configurations
>together? It sounds to me like Ion Storms are your favorite thing in the
>world and you will force us all to use them, or we won't be able to use most
>of the new features. Did you not say if IS is turned off, so is cloning and
>the new building queue? If so, what else is linked together? If they are not
>linked, my apologies.
IS and the queue are teh ONLY things linked together, I screwed up on the
clone thing. Sorry.
Dave