Space Gods (was Re: Demographics)
Ks. Jim
[much deleted]
> (my beef is the multiple faith skills, but the religion is sound -
I would really like to know where you and several other people in my game
got the idea that you can have multiple Faith skills in Akasha...it says
nothing about that in the SG SB anywhere, just that all religions are
part of Apeiros/Nameless One and so different religions can work together
on miracles in Akasha without spiritual conflict.
The only place multiple Faith skills are mentioned in TORG is in the
Delphi Council Worldbook in regards to Voodoo, which is a special case.
> heck, elves get weeks, and no gm worth his salt would kill a cybered
> character just because he wandered into a ll pure zone
Depends on what cyberware he has...
> (and before you say otherwise Jim, remember that you let quick live and
> even function almost fully in the lb, and that was a rewired head!)
A partially rewired head - nothing in his brain was replaced, so the loss
of the cyber components didn't shut down his brain. Now if he had had
a fully computerized brain replacing his organic one, then he would have
died in the Land Below (or a cyber heart, cyber lungs, etc.)
> (in looking back over the explanation of social 21 in the sb, the
> statement that psi requires "group cooperation for the benfit of society
> and the individual" makes me wince. almost as bad "psi gets better with
> lower social axiom". are we to say that psi requires a group
> conciousness? maybe for jedi level powers, but not in general.)
For the interpretation of psionics that they're using in the Space Gods,
they probably are basing it on a group consciousness or something similar
(Mike probably knows more since he's read the books the psi rules appear
to be based on.)
That of course leads to the possibility of psionics not based on group
consciousness; we have different forms of magic all over the place, as
well as different forms of technology, why not psionics? (Probably
because no one has written a supplement or sourcebook with a different
form of psionics yet....)
Kansas Jim (jo...@aoc.nrao.edu)
Michaael Cantrell
* > (my beef is the multiple faith skills, but the religion is sound -
*
* I would really like to know where you and several other people in my game
* got the idea that you can have multiple Faith skills in Akasha...it says
* nothing about that in the SG SB anywhere, just that all religions are
* part of Apeiros/Nameless One and so different religions can work together
* on miracles in Akasha without spiritual conflict.
hmm, can't recall anyone specifically mentioning multiple faith skills
in Akasha (in your game), but it seems a reasonable extrapolation of the
world laws of the Star Sphere. Of course, what it comes down to is GM
interpretation: personally I could go either way on the issue.
*
* For the interpretation of psionics that they're using in the Space Gods,
* they probably are basing it on a group consciousness or something similar
* (Mike probably knows more since he's read the books the psi rules appear
* to be based on.)
*
* That of course leads to the possibility of psionics not based on group
* consciousness; we have different forms of magic all over the place, as
* well as different forms of technology, why not psionics? (Probably
* because no one has written a supplement or sourcebook with a different
* form of psionics yet....)
*
*
* Kansas Jim (jo...@aoc.nrao.edu)
*
Well, since I've been invoked, i feel obligated to respond. I don't
think that group consciousness is quite the right word. In fact, the
relavant concept from the books doesn't even translate well into TORG
terms: but I keep trying! I think *meta*consciousness comes closer to
the idea and is supported by the descriptins of the Social axioms in
the Rulebook. At Social 28, evil is eliminated. Presumably because the
social consciousness is so sophisticated that deliberate evil becomes
impossible to contemplate, much less execute.
Hmmm, I digress I think (should have seen the last couple of
paragraphs I just deleted). let me just say that i don't think
psionics *depend* on any sort of group consciousness *or*
metaconsciousness, but i think these things are side effects of the
interaction between higher Social axioms and psionics, i.e., i think,
using the May books as an example, that the Unity is a natural
extension of a psionic culture possessing a Social 27 axiom, *not*
a prerequisite...
Hope this helps,
--Mike
David J Oakes-1
> dave writes:
> [much deleted]
> > (my beef is the multiple faith skills, but the religion is sound -
"it is also possible for non-natives of the akashan realm to perform the
miracles of other faiths while in the realm [thank goodness for that
qualifier!]. to accomplish this, the character must have at least one
faith add, and will need to purchase an add in faith(akasha)." it goes on
to mention there is a time to learn req as well
this says to me that the character now has her original faith skill, and
one add of faith(akasha) as well - multiple faith skills
(unless of course this is part of some previously unmentioned method for
transforming old faith adds into new ones, which might be worthwhile in
itself)
> The only place multiple Faith skills are mentioned in TORG is in the
> Delphi Council Worldbook in regards to Voodoo, which is a special case.
and i am not to happy about those either, but i accept that voodoo is a
very special case wrt religion, belief, et all
> > heck, elves get weeks, and no gm worth his salt would kill a cybered
> > character just because he wandered into a ll pure zone
> Depends on what cyberware he has...
> > (and before you say otherwise Jim, remember that you let quick live and
> > even function almost fully in the lb, and that was a rewired head!)
> A partially rewired head - nothing in his brain was replaced, so the loss
> of the cyber components didn't shut down his brain. Now if he had had
> a fully computerized brain replacing his organic one, then he would have
> died in the Land Below (or a cyber heart, cyber lungs, etc.)
bad call (and noy just because i was playing him)
if a character willing enters what he knows to be a pure zone, then he
should get whats coming to him, i agree. but it is very easy to just find
oneself in a low tech pure zone (we magically apeared in cairo after the
chalice trilogy in your game, and and one usually just drops in on the lb
unannounced), and it is unfogivable to kill a charater for something they
didnt do willfully.
yes, low tech areas should be a hinderance to cybered characters. but
instant (or even near instant) death is NOT the way to do it.
(even for the totally bogus tharkold infiltrator...)
and from an artistic point of view, it is much more dramatic to draw out
their suffering then just eliminate them quickly
> For the interpretation of psionics that they're using in the Space Gods,
> they probably are basing it on a group consciousness or something similar
> (Mike probably knows more since he's read the books the psi rules appear
> to be based on.)
they might be, but they never say right out - as for the may books mike
references, i dont remember any "group mind" concepts, but then it has been
awhile
> That of course leads to the possibility of psionics not based on group
> consciousness; we have different forms of magic all over the place, as
> well as different forms of technology, why not psionics? (Probably
> because no one has written a supplement or sourcebook with a different
> form of psionics yet....)
and why not martial arts?
looks like you were just cayght raising your hand - want to volunteer for
a couple of modules while you are at it?
dave "i never said anything about TORG:1889 either!" oakes
Jim Ogle
> On Tue, 8 Feb 1994, Jim Ogle wrote:
> > I would really like to know where you and several other people in my game
> > got the idea that you can have multiple Faith skills in Akasha...it says
> > nothing about that in the SG SB anywhere, just that all religions are
> > part of Apeiros/Nameless One and so different religions can work together
> > on miracles in Akasha without spiritual conflict.
> sg sb, chap 7 miracles of faith, pg 78, paragraph 3:
Oh, silly me, I only checked the world laws and the section on the
Akashan religion in the front of the book...
[flip, flip, read, read]
[quote about buying an add in Faith(Akasha) deleted]
> this says to me that the character now has her original faith skill, and
> one add of faith(akasha) as well - multiple faith skills
> (unless of course this is part of some previously unmentioned method for
> transforming old faith adds into new ones, which might be worthwhile in
> itself)
Okay, by my interpretation of the section in question, they are talking
about the character coverting to the Akashan religion - I really don't
see how (for example) a Cyberpapaist could go to Akasha, learn about a
philosophy that runs counter to the very basic tenants of his religion (one
god <> all gods are the same), and then be able to go around performing non-
CP miracles while still having any kind of belief in the CP doctrines.
Now it may just be some funky aspect of the Law of Acceptance that would
allow said character to have two Faith skills, but I would say that once
you buy that first add in Faith(Akasha), you're no longer a follower of
your previous religion, you're a follower of the Akashan religion - due to
the tenants of the Akashan religion you would still have access to the
miracles of your former religion but you would be using your new Faith
instead of the previous one and your old Faith skill should eventually
fade away as it is absorbed into the Akashan belief system. (All IMO
of course.)
> > > heck, elves get weeks, and no gm worth his salt would kill a cybered
> > > character just because he wandered into a ll pure zone
> > Depends on what cyberware he has...
> > > (and before you say otherwise Jim, remember that you let quick live and
> > > even function almost fully in the lb, and that was a rewired head!)
> > A partially rewired head - nothing in his brain was replaced, so the loss
> > of the cyber components didn't shut down his brain. Now if he had had
> > a fully computerized brain replacing his organic one, then he would have
> > died in the Land Below (or a cyber heart, cyber lungs, etc.)
> bad call (and noy just because i was playing him)
> if a character willing enters what he knows to be a pure zone, then he
> should get whats coming to him, i agree. but it is very easy to just find
> oneself in a low tech pure zone (we magically apeared in cairo after the
> chalice trilogy in your game, and and one usually just drops in on the lb
> unannounced), and it is unfogivable to kill a charater for something they
> didnt do willfully.
Since most characters aren't going to be cybered to the point of dying right
away it shouldn't be much of a problem. If they are cybered to the point that
they cannot survive without their cyberware functioning, tough titty if they
die in the Land Below; they accepted that risk when they had their heart and
lungs ripped out and replaced with cyberware, even if they weren't expecting
to go anywhere that would kill them.
> yes, low tech areas should be a hinderance to cybered characters. but
> instant (or even near instant) death is NOT the way to do it.
> (even for the totally bogus tharkold infiltrator...)
>
> and from an artistic point of view, it is much more dramatic to draw out
> their suffering then just eliminate them quickly
Depending on the genre, it's also dramatically appropriate for them to
suffer the results of their follies, and if that means dying over the
course of a few minutes because of their cyberware, so be it.
> > That of course leads to the possibility of psionics not based on group
> > consciousness; we have different forms of magic all over the place, as
> > well as different forms of technology, why not psionics? (Probably
> > because no one has written a supplement or sourcebook with a different
> > form of psionics yet....)
> and why not martial arts?
Can you describe an entirely different philosophy behind "martial arts"
that would require a different setup than what we have currently? I
think the current system (once we readjust the social axiom to something
historically believable) will work for just about any situation where we
can come up with martial arts, as opposed to the situation with psionics
where there are a large number of different interpretations and variations
on what causes them, how they came about, why they work, etc.
Kansas Jim (jo...@aoc.nrao.edu)
David J Oakes-1
> dave writes:
> Oh, silly me, I only checked the world laws and the section on the
> Akashan religion in the front of the book...
(and i think some post sb npc has two faith skills, but i might be wrong)
>
> Okay, by my interpretation of the section in question, they are talking
> about the character coverting to the Akashan religion - I really don't
> see how (for example) a Cyberpapaist could go to Akasha, learn about a
> philosophy that runs counter to the very basic tenants of his religion (one
> god <> all gods are the same), and then be able to go around performing non-
> CP miracles while still having any kind of belief in the CP doctrines.
nor is anything really mentioned along these lines.
and this is a bad precedent - if "all gods are one" or "there are voodoo
loas" are really entirely new faith adds, then why not model baptist as
"faith(christianity) + faith(fire and brimstone)"? which of course leads
us to the case of many different faith skills to identify all possible
sects, first brought up by joe(?)
[killing cybered characters deleted]
> Since most characters aren't going to be cybered to the point of dying right
> away it shouldn't be much of a problem. If they are cybered to the point that
> they cannot survive without their cyberware functioning, tough titty if they
> die in the Land Below; they accepted that risk when they had their heart and
> lungs ripped out and replaced with cyberware, even if they weren't expecting
> to go anywhere that would kill them.
due to reality storms, characters may not have always accepted that risk.
and even if i play smart, there is nothing to stop the gm from saying
where i am is now a pure zone, <bang> i am dead.
(ok, little to stop the gm from saying that anyway - but it takes elves
weeks if not months to die from disco, and realistic or not, i think we
should cut cybers some slack)
> Depending on the genre, it's also dramatically appropriate for them to
> suffer the results of their follies, and if that means dying over the
> course of a few minutes because of their cyberware, so be it.
maybe in that "hamlet" cosm, but true to the "cinematic genre" the hero
doent die right in the middle of the picture just because his pacemaker is
on the fritz. martyr cards, sure, even tense dramas of "but i must enter
that pure zone to save the world!" (nile pure zone obviously). but not
"oops, didnt use duracell. sorry."
> > > That of course leads to the possibility of psionics not based on group
> > > consciousness; we have different forms of magic all over the place, as
> > > well as different forms of technology, why not psionics? (Probably
> > > because no one has written a supplement or sourcebook with a different
> > > form of psionics yet....)
> > and why not martial arts?
> Can you describe an entirely different philosophy behind "martial arts"
> that would require a different setup than what we have currently? I
(note how he artfully doges the work?)
i was not at all saying we need many different basis for ma - i was saying
that as long as you are rewriting ma to fit the general case, why not psi
as well?
(i wont even get on my "why does all magic work like the middle ages said
it does" soapbox)
dave "well, only a little" oakes
Michaael Cantrell
* "it is also possible for non-natives of the akashan realm to perform the
* miracles of other faiths while in the realm [thank goodness for that
* qualifier!]. to accomplish this, the character must have at least one
* faith add, and will need to purchase an add in faith(akasha)." it goes on
* to mention there is a time to learn req as well
I think Dave's got us on this one
* yes, low tech areas should be a hinderance to cybered characters. but
* instant (or even near instant) death is NOT the way to do it.
* (even for the totally bogus tharkold infiltrator...)
Hey, I resemble that remark...
--Mike
Jacob Bara-Skowronek
>dave writes:
>> bad call (and noy just because i was playing him)
>> if a character willing enters what he knows to be a pure zone, then he
>> should get whats coming to him, i agree. but it is very easy to just find
>> oneself in a low tech pure zone (we magically apeared in cairo after the
>> chalice trilogy in your game, and and one usually just drops in on the lb
>> unannounced), and it is unfogivable to kill a charater for something they
>> didnt do willfully.
>Since most characters aren't going to be cybered to the point of dying right
>away it shouldn't be much of a problem. If they are cybered to the point that
>they cannot survive without their cyberware functioning, tough titty if they
>die in the Land Below; they accepted that risk when they had their heart and
>lungs ripped out and replaced with cyberware, even if they weren't expecting
>to go anywhere that would kill them.
>
>> yes, low tech areas should be a hinderance to cybered characters. but
>> instant (or even near instant) death is NOT the way to do it.
>> (even for the totally bogus tharkold infiltrator...)
>>
>> and from an artistic point of view, it is much more dramatic to draw out
>> their suffering then just eliminate them quickly
Actually, in my campaign we've found that it IS appropriate to use
InstaWounds in low-tech-zones for heavily cybered characters. We
have a Race cyborg-priest who is so heavily cybered that it shudders
my mind when I think of his un-Cyberharmonied cybervalue (it's over
100 right now - b/c of enablers). He is an extraordinarily powerful
character (the muscle of the party), but he has always had one
limitation which the other two of us have not - low-tech-pure-zones.
As a result, he has fewer possibilities than we do (in general) but
usually on uses them to initiate reality bubbles. If he does not, he
starts to die - taking one wound each round as his cyberorgans begin
to shut down and fail.
When our GM first instituted the rule, the player argued vehemently
against it (to no avail), but now that's it's been in use for a number
of adventures, we've found that it's a good limitation to the
character. In one sense, he 'bought' a pulp power which gave him
access to incresing amounts of cyberware (due to the unique
cyberpsyche skill), but along with it came a limited death flaw which
doesn't give him possibilities. It may seem rather harsh, but if
one's going to play a cyborg (or the equivalent), the benefits of
almost unlimited cyberware counterbalance the risk of dying in pure
zones (or InstaDeath due to transformation). In fact, in many ways,
they more than counterbalance the risks.
It has also been very interesting to see his reaction when he is faced
with a reality which cannot support his very existence. For a priest
of the Race - God's a cyborg, why can't we be one too? - it's
disturbing to be faced with the realization that a cosm cannot suffer
him to live. He always ends up going a bit wacko during those
periods.
Jacob Bara-Skowronek
jac...@cs.brandeis.edu
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Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim)
>Actually, in my campaign we've found that it IS appropriate to use
>InstaWounds in low-tech-zones for heavily cybered characters. We
>have a Race cyborg-priest who is so heavily cybered that it shudders
>my mind when I think of his un-Cyberharmonied cybervalue (it's over
>100 right now - b/c of enablers). He is an extraordinarily powerful
Cough cough cough - over 100? Even if we eliminate the enablers
(technomagical enablers, right?) that's still a cybervalue in the
70's! I'd say that someone that cybered would certainly die if his
cyberware stopped working (since there's probably nothing human left
by that point!)
--
Kansas Jim, TORG guru (jo...@aoc.nrao.edu, NRAO-VLBA, Socorro New Mexico)
"I'd be apathetic if I cared."