Syxx wrote in message <362918C8.D47F7...@ix.netcom.com>... >Giles Hjort-Tyson wrote:
>> the guardians do pretty well for defence. I don't usually attack before I >> have full tech, because I like to use small but effective groups, like 12 >> hydras +8 queens+ 4 defilers+ 12 zerglings. Very little can stop a group >> like that, and if you do lose it, it all costs a lot less to rebuild then >> 150 hydras or 12 battlecruisers. (and it would beat 12 cruisers or 150 >> hydras)
>I have to question this strat when used by the Zerg. Their >strength is numbers, and any Terran worth a damn will EMP >Queens and Defilers(both weak and defenseless) on sight. >Without the requisite infantry backup the spellcasters go >down easy. It seems to me that sitting around and tech >climbing is a strat better suited to Protoss or Terrans, as >the Zerg's heavy units just can't stand up to theirs. The >new ultras might change this, but we'll have to see. Queens >and Defilers are great, but they draw too much fire to go in >undersupported like that. This is sort of the same gripe I >have with the Arbiter. It might as well have a flashing >neon bullseye on it.
Not really. Very few people use the science vessals, and when they do they are only annoying.. yes they kill queens and defilers, but they cost 300 gas. An erradiated defilers always has time to plague a sci vessal, and it practicly costs more to repair the vessal then it does to morph another defiler. With queens it's a little worse of a trade, but it's easier to keep the queens further back unless you need them. Now as for the magic units being 'unsupported', they aren't... didn't you see the 12 hydras + 12 zerglings? It's not much but it's enough to kill any science vessals that come too close. And science vessals are the biggest threat. Templars are slow, and if they are in shuttles they take time to come out, so it's usually pretty easy to take one or 2 queens away from the rest and broodling any templars. Just about any combat unit will die to between darkswarm and spawn broodling, and ensnare is good for killing wraiths or other fast flyers. Plague is just a luxury, not usually needed but still helpfull, mainly used to discourge huge groups of battlecruisers or scouts or guardians or anything else that flies.
>Also, how do you figure that group will beat 150 hydras? I >don't think the 150 hydras would take much damage, even >assuming the full complement of plagues, ensnares, dark >swarms, etc.
It's very easy. Assuming the other player does the usually attack-move or patrol or whatever, you just set up a dark swarm over your hydras and sit them there, dark swarm lasts a long time and between 4 defilers they will regain energy faster then it's used up to maintain one swarm, but besides that it would only take 2 or 3 to kill 150 hydras. If the player with the hydras is smarter, he can put his hydras under the swarm also, well some but not all 150... but that wont work because of the zerglings which would be unborrowed then. The only real option is to turn around and run, after taking some 20-30 losses most likely. You don't even use plague btw, and queens aren't really that usefull either vs hydras.
>I get the theory but in practice I don't think >any human could coordinate that sort of thing before the >hydras wiped them all out, considering their range and rate >of fire.
It's actually very easy. Select defiler, cast darkswarm, move all units under swarm, order 'hold position', burrow zerglings.
There is 1 unit that the zergs have a lot of trouble with, the Archon. Broodling doesn't work, Plague doesn't work, and they got a hecka lot of points, 350, and cheap too, 100/300, especialy on those mucho money maps wehre you have 4 geysers at each bae. send in 36 archons against the zergs, ad you are literally unstoppable. To make things even more swwet, send in 36 archons and 2 temps, and storm those guys, or just hallucinate a bunch for a front line
Giles Hjort-Tyson wrote in message <355f9cd...@newsprime.tidalwave.net>...
>Syxx wrote in message <362918C8.D47F7...@ix.netcom.com>... >>Giles Hjort-Tyson wrote:
>>> the guardians do pretty well for defence. I don't usually attack before I >>> have full tech, because I like to use small but effective groups, like 12 >>> hydras +8 queens+ 4 defilers+ 12 zerglings. Very little can stop a group >>> like that, and if you do lose it, it all costs a lot less to rebuild then >>> 150 hydras or 12 battlecruisers. (and it would beat 12 cruisers or 150 >>> hydras)
>>I have to question this strat when used by the Zerg. Their >>strength is numbers, and any Terran worth a damn will EMP >>Queens and Defilers(both weak and defenseless) on sight. >>Without the requisite infantry backup the spellcasters go >>down easy. It seems to me that sitting around and tech >>climbing is a strat better suited to Protoss or Terrans, as >>the Zerg's heavy units just can't stand up to theirs. The >>new ultras might change this, but we'll have to see. Queens >>and Defilers are great, but they draw too much fire to go in >>undersupported like that. This is sort of the same gripe I >>have with the Arbiter. It might as well have a flashing >>neon bullseye on it.
>Not really. Very few people use the science vessals, and when they do they >are only annoying.. yes they kill queens and defilers, but they cost 300 >gas. An erradiated defilers always has time to plague a sci vessal, and it >practicly costs more to repair the vessal then it does to morph another >defiler. With queens it's a little worse of a trade, but it's easier to keep >the queens further back unless you need them. Now as for the magic units >being 'unsupported', they aren't... didn't you see the 12 hydras + 12 >zerglings? It's not much but it's enough to kill any science vessals that >come too close. And science vessals are the biggest threat. Templars are >slow, and if they are in shuttles they take time to come out, so it's >usually pretty easy to take one or 2 queens away from the rest and broodling >any templars. Just about any combat unit will die to between darkswarm and >spawn broodling, and ensnare is good for killing wraiths or other fast >flyers. Plague is just a luxury, not usually needed but still helpfull, >mainly used to discourge huge groups of battlecruisers or scouts or >guardians or anything else that flies.
>>Also, how do you figure that group will beat 150 hydras? I >>don't think the 150 hydras would take much damage, even >>assuming the full complement of plagues, ensnares, dark >>swarms, etc.
>It's very easy. Assuming the other player does the usually attack-move or >patrol or whatever, you just set up a dark swarm over your hydras and sit >them there, dark swarm lasts a long time and between 4 defilers they will >regain energy faster then it's used up to maintain one swarm, but besides >that it would only take 2 or 3 to kill 150 hydras. If the player with the >hydras is smarter, he can put his hydras under the swarm also, well some but >not all 150... but that wont work because of the zerglings which would be >unborrowed then. The only real option is to turn around and run, after >taking some 20-30 losses most likely. You don't even use plague btw, and >queens aren't really that usefull either vs hydras.
>>I get the theory but in practice I don't think >>any human could coordinate that sort of thing before the >>hydras wiped them all out, considering their range and rate >>of fire.
>It's actually very easy. Select defiler, cast darkswarm, move all units >under swarm, order 'hold position', burrow zerglings.
Giles Hjort-Tyson wrote: > Not really. Very few people use the science vessals, and when they do they > are only annoying.. yes they kill queens and defilers, but they cost 300
I love SV's.
> gas. An erradiated defilers always has time to plague a sci vessal, and it > practicly costs more to repair the vessal then it does to morph another > defiler.
Interesting point, is there any sort of scale for the amount of resources used to repair various Terran units?
> It's actually very easy. Select defiler, cast darkswarm, move all units > under swarm, order 'hold position', burrow zerglings.
I see. I rarely play Zerg on bnet, so maybe i'm just a little behind on this topic. But how would this strat work in actual practice? Dark Swarm seems like almost exclusively a defensive spell(esp. vs. terrans, due to tanks and firebats), so laying siege to an enemy base with it seems like more trouble than it's worth(and you can't swarm guardians, which seem to be the best defense breakers anyway). Now the BC scenario would be a real bitch. It's been my experience that 12 BC's pretty much have free reign but against swarmed hydras they would have a real problem. This is one reason I'm a little disappointed in the Valkyrie, it's just a flying siege tank. I would have like a moderately cheap air to ground unit to ease the burden of BC's.
matt It would apear I ahve worked my way onto your enmies list on 2 counts. 1 my grammer not being quite up to standard 2 rushing:What i will not do though is rush when a no rush game is accpeted by both sides. I see rushing as a valuable tactic. If you can beat someone in the first 10 minutes then why not try. A rush is easy to defend against all you have do is build an early atack force at the same time as your opponent if you stay at your base you will have more troops than him and you will win the ensuring conflict. Other ways to avoid rushes are to play 3 way ffa or island maps.
-- Tom Furber I have always hoped for the best but life has led me to expect the worst P.S this is not a flame
: matt : It would apear I ahve worked my way onto your enmies list on 2 counts. : 1 my grammer not being quite up to standard : 2 rushing:What i will not do though is rush when a no rush game is accpeted : by both sides. [deletia]
Thomas,
Ahhh, but by your own admission, you do not rush when a "no rush" is called. This is honest behavior. Your #2 item is invalid.
as to #1, lets <cut to studio audience shouting in unison>: "Ask Dr. Grammar!"
Everyone: Dr. Grammar, what is the difference between "your" and "you're"?
Dr. Grammar: I'm glad you asked. It seems that "you're" is the contracted form of "You are" while "your" is the possessive form of "you." Here is an example sentence that uses both words. "You're going to lose because your Battlecruisers have been plagued and ensnared by my forces. Ha ha."
Remember to use "you're" wherever "you are" would be appropriate and "your" whenever you wish to refer to something owned by someone.
Everyone: Thanks, Dr. Grammar!
Dr. Grammar: *You're* welcome kids.
There you have it, straight from the source.
Pax Hvmanvs --matt-- "Your marines are swimming in my spawning pool."
Syxx wrote in message <362B7A4F.85F24...@ix.netcom.com>... >Giles Hjort-Tyson wrote: >I love SV's.
As I usually only play against them, I hate em :)
>Interesting point, is there any sort of scale for the amount >of resources used to repair various Terran units?
Not sure, but I have a feeling it's either 1/3rd or 1/4th the normal cost to fully repair from 1 hp to full hp.
>I see. I rarely play Zerg on bnet, so maybe i'm just a >little behind on this topic. But how would this strat work >in actual practice? Dark Swarm seems like almost >exclusively a defensive spell(esp. vs. terrans, due to tanks >and firebats), so laying siege to an enemy base with it >seems like more trouble than it's worth(and you can't swarm >guardians, which seem to be the best defense breakers >anyway). Now the BC scenario would be a real bitch. It's >been my experience that 12 BC's pretty much have free reign >but against swarmed hydras they would have a real problem. >This is one reason I'm a little disappointed in the >Valkyrie, it's just a flying siege tank. I would have like >a moderately cheap air to ground unit to ease the burden of >BC's.
Yeah it kills battlecruisers, really anything flying, extreamly well. While it is sorta defensive, it can be used ofensivly very easily. It just takes more time. I'll usually first scout with queens, parasite a few units, then broodling any tanks. Assuming there is a bunker, i'll either plague it and let it burn, or if the terran is paying attention I'll darkswarm infront of it and move in the hydras. Or I could swarm on the bunker and use zerglings, but that wouldn't be very good if the bunker had firebats. Anyway the trick is to just advance slowly, with dark swarm your units are basicly invincible against the average zerg or terran player, and vs protoss reavers and zealots can be a bitch, thats why you need guardians if going against protoss.
Pax Thank you(or should i say Docter Drammer) for enlighting me about the grammer. After rereading the post you are right that I was not techicly on his enimes list.But from the way he talked about rushers in genral i got the picture i was deifinatly not on his friends list.
-- Tom Furber I have always hoped for the best but life has led me to expect the worst
plusether...@my-dejanews.com wrote: > In article <lieschj-1310981505030...@jliesch.reshall.ucsd.edu>, > lies...@primenet.com (Jesse) wrote:
> > I was having a discussion with one of my friend's about his protoss > > strategy the other day. Basically he plays heavy D at the beginning of > > the game, using many zealots/cannons and templars to defend his bases. > > The difference between this, and say, a terran defense is that he doesn't > > ONLY worry only about defending his main base and never leaves his shell, > > but instead he focuses on grabbing all the extra expansions he can take.
> This is a pretty powerful strategy especially on island maps and FFAs. The > main difficulty lies in setting up the expansions on land maps 1v1, which can > be hard even against zerg players who just use the simple strategy of out > expanding you and swarming in zerglings/hydra/muta before your expansion is > properly set up.
> Actually on a slightly different point I think a game imbalance exists here > on maps with easily accessible/defendable expansions such as most ladder > maps, as the zerg can expand early and safely with their 2nd hatchery and > build a stronger economy with little risk and no diversion of resources.
An imbalance in favor of the zerg does exist in my opinion. But I fail to see your point. A terran or protoss player could just as easily expand with the same risk no?
> > This is one example of going for HEAVY resources. After his operations > > are decently set up there should be no way his opponent has any chance of > > winning if they are only harvesting half the resources.
> Against zerg, I agree the protoss have the advantage in late game (if you can > get to that stage.) Terrans are a more even match and you really have to > out-resource them to win as protoss.
I am not sure how you came to this conclusion. The only time I can possibly see a weakness in the zerg is in the early game when their only unit is the zergling and their base consist of 2 buildings.
