SF2/KI vs. question (was Re:Austin's Glosses etc.)
Miyamoto Musashi
Cochems) writes:
>In another article, I wrote
>>Yes, but like KI, other nodes' characters have "retaliations", too. Ryu has
>>his Dragon Punch, Fei Long has the Phoenix? Kick, Chun Li has her Spinning
>>Bird Kick, etc. You also fail to mention that the KIers have one major
>>disadvantage: THEY CAN'T THROW! All another character would have to do is
>>tick/throw them to death. As for the combo breaker ability, this only
>>applies to combos greater than 2 hits, so the other characters could just
>>do 2-hit combos which, BTW, take off more damage than the same in KI.
>Wrong..
>The characters in SF2 CANNOT perform a retaliation against a PROPERLY
>TIMED ATTACK! If you don't believe me, ask all the regulars on
>alt.games.sf2 and they'll all tell you the SAME THING. If an attack it
>timed just right, it must be blocked. All a KIer has to do is do the
>unblockable at that very instant. The same is true of almost EVERY
>fighting game around.
Okay, he told me to bring it here, so I have. SF2 gods, what say ye?
+------------------------------------------------------------+
| The views contained within are those of me, myself, and I. |
| (Not necessarily in that order, though) |
+------------------------------------------------------------+
irwi...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu
Matthew Wallace
: In article <3gv326$a...@camelot.bradley.edu> zap...@camelot.bradley.edu (Chuck
: Cochems) writes:
: >Wrong..
I am of the firm belief that there is no such thing as an unstoppable
attack. I believe that even a perfectly timed attack can be countered.
Of course, you can't even initiate a "perfectly timed attack" unless
your opponent is on the ground to begin with.
-Matt
Chris Ozols
>>TIMED ATTACK! If you don't believe me, ask all the regulars on
>>alt.games.sf2 and they'll all tell you the SAME THING. If an attack it
>>timed just right, it must be blocked. All a KIer has to do is do the
>>unblockable at that very instant. The same is true of almost EVERY
>>fighting game around.
BS. What do you think a reversal attack is? When you get up, and right
as you get out of block stun you can pull a special move (dp) that will
hit anything. Obviously, pulling a reversal fireball will still get you
hit as it doensn't connect right away, but a reversal DP against any
attack _will_ hit a "properly timed attack".
Chris Ozols | ozol...@student.msu.edu | That's it; that's my whole .sig
Henry Ha
1) KI character take ticking damage only against special moves, but still
very little damage.
SF2 character gave alot of ticking damage to each other.
So does that mean an SF character can do alot of ticking damage to
KI characters or does that mean KI characters will be almost invulnerable
to ticking damage, because KI characters take very little ticking damage
from everyone?
2) This is like a boss match with Shao Kahn(MK) or Eyedol(KI), because one
mistake by the SF characters will result in over 80% damage(25-40% damage
for dizzies, 35-50% for killer combos) especially against TJ Combo but if
you don't make a mistake you can do well.
3) Glacius's super fast unblockable uppercut which can be done whether or
not you are knocked down on the ground.
4) Would they be the same speed or not? Would they both KI and SF2 be in
turbo mode, or just SF characters? Which version of the SF2 characters
the super versions, hyperfighting, CE, turbo, etc.? What speed for the
KI characters, turbo or normal?
-Henry Ha
Henry Ha
>>>The characters in SF2 CANNOT perform a retaliation against a PROPERLY
>>>TIMED ATTACK! If you don't believe me, ask all the regulars on
>>>alt.games.sf2 and they'll all tell you the SAME THING. If an attack it
>>>timed just right, it must be blocked. All a KIer has to do is do the
>>>unblockable at that very instant. The same is true of almost EVERY
>>>fighting game around.
>
>BS. What do you think a reversal attack is? When you get up, and right
>as you get out of block stun you can pull a special move (dp) that will
>hit anything. Obviously, pulling a reversal fireball will still get you
>hit as it doensn't connect right away, but a reversal DP against any
>attack _will_ hit a "properly timed attack".
What about the other special moves by other characters? Don't forget
that the strategies for each SF2 character would be different, since
some of them don't have fireballs or dragon punches.
-Henry Ha
John Bigelow
Perhaps those of you who play KI regularly could be more specific, to help out
a poor KI Fulgore scrub. I've played before, and found ground attacks that had
to be blocked high, but no attacks that I couldn't block, given time to figure
out whether they were coming high or low. Which attacks are these, and who
performs them?a
Miyamoto Musashi (irwi...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: In article <3gv326$a...@camelot.bradley.edu> zap...@camelot.bradley.edu (Chuck
: Cochems) writes:
: >Wrong..
Miyamoto Musashi (irwi...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: In article <3gv326$a...@camelot.bradley.edu> zap...@camelot.bradley.edu (Chuck
Chuck Cochems
>BS. What do you think a reversal attack is? When you get up, and right
>as you get out of block stun you can pull a special move (dp) that will
>hit anything. Obviously, pulling a reversal fireball will still get you
>hit as it doensn't connect right away, but a reversal DP against any
>attack _will_ hit a "properly timed attack".
It seems there are still a few people who are unconvinced.
The answer is right in the SF2 FAQ.
If someone does a perfectly timed attack, and you try to do a dragon
punch, you will GET HIT..
Try to dragon punch through a Chun Li palm press. See how many times you
can do that. Doesn't work very often, does it?
It IS IN THE FAQ that you MUST block an attack if it is timed perfectly.
Haven't you all heard of the force on Ming?
(Ming, go enlighten these guys..)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
zap...@camelot.bradley.edu
Sorry, no .signature.funny today. Maybe next time!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Cochems
>I am of the firm belief that there is no such thing as an unstoppable
>attack. I believe that even a perfectly timed attack can be countered.
>Of course, you can't even initiate a "perfectly timed attack" unless
>your opponent is on the ground to begin with.
>-Matt
In SF2, the way you counter it is to block it.
However, Killer Instinct charcters have unblockable moves. If one of
these is used with that special timing, then there wouldn't be a damn
thing the sf2 character could do.
Henry Ha
>
>Perhaps those of you who play KI regularly could be more specific, to help out
>a poor KI Fulgore scrub. I've played before, and found ground attacks that had
>to be blocked high, but no attacks that I couldn't block, given time to figure
>out whether they were coming high or low. Which attacks are these, and who
>performs them?a
>
Let's say I am using Cinder, and you are using whoever you want.
I somehow manage to knock you down. After I knock you down, I do
the fierce torpedo so that I am right next to you. After the torpedo,
I have about 2 seconds to do a jump kick. I do the jump kick before you
get up, so that it misses. As soon as your character starts to stand,
they will magically fall down again without me even touching you. It is
sort of like Guile's magic throw from SF:TWW. I don't touch you, but you
get knocked down anyway. The only way to stop it is with a reversal move
you do before you get up. If you do any other attack besides the reversal
move, you will get knocked down before the animation of that move appears.
You can not block at all. You cannot block Back, Down-back, forward,
down-forward, or down, because the jump kick is down before you get up
and the jump kick animation never touches you anyway.
-Henry Ha
Alex Werner
Miyamoto Musashi <irwi...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>In article <3gv326$a...@camelot.bradley.edu> zap...@camelot.bradley.edu (Chuck
>Cochems) writes:
>
>
>>The characters in SF2 CANNOT perform a retaliation against a PROPERLY
>>TIMED ATTACK! If you don't believe me, ask all the regulars on
>>alt.games.sf2 and they'll all tell you the SAME THING. If an attack it
>>timed just right, it must be blocked. All a KIer has to do is do the
>>unblockable at that very instant. The same is true of almost EVERY
>>fighting game around.
>
>Okay, he told me to bring it here, so I have. SF2 gods, what say ye?
Well, he's right. But, when he says "timed attack" he means "attack timed
perfectly _when you're getting up_". So if a KI character knocked a SF2
character down, that would (in this silly hypothetical example) be that.
On the other hand, if an SF2 character knocks a KI character down, a
major tickfest will ensue, and the KI character will lose.
--
Alex Werner | Math/CS | Haverford College
awe...@haverford.edu awe...@ralph.cs.haverford.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------
Nobody's really going to be free 'til nerd persecution ends.
ryu, god of street fighter
> I am of the firm belief that there is no such thing as an unstoppable
> attack. I believe that even a perfectly timed attack can be countered.
> Of course, you can't even initiate a "perfectly timed attack" unless
> your opponent is on the ground to begin with.
> -Matt
If you believe that, then you haven't experienced a perfectly timed crouching
strong or forward from Ryu/Ken/Akuma, or you haven't had anybody do a
Yoga Flame, or DP when you were getting up. All those you have to block,
or else eat it. Personally, I like the the crouching strong, so that I can
then do a 3 hitter.
Ryu
ryu, god of street fighter
> I am of the firm belief that there is no such thing as an unstoppable
> attack. I believe that even a perfectly timed attack can be countered.
> Of course, you can't even initiate a "perfectly timed attack" unless
> your opponent is on the ground to begin with.
> -Matt
If you believe that, then you haven't experienced a perfectly timed crouching
Justin Ratcliff
BZZT, HONK, CLANK! I'm sorry, you don't get the ten thousand dollar bonus,
but we have some nice consolation prizes... :)
SF2 has a property called a "Meaty Attack" or a properly timed attack. They will
prevent ANY kind of retaliation from an opponent. They are most commonly used
as someone is getting up. If someone tries to reversal DP a meaty attack, they
will get a good hard smacking.
Balrogs low forward and Feilongs low fierece are good examples of meaty attacks.
Matthew Wallace
I have timing that will put 99.999999% of everyone I ever played
in line if they try getting out of my attacks. Yet, Jason Nelson, who
for a long time owned his own Super and practiced day and night
with Thomas Osaki, seems to get out on a regular basis.
The whole debate is a moot point. The "perfect timing" is so
impossible to get it is irrelevent. It's a matter of who times it
better, because no one is going to get it perfectly.
-Matt
Matthew Wallace
: mwal...@netcom.com (Matthew Wallace) wrote:
: Ryu
If you believe that, then you haven't played enough players with good
timing. Come on out to California, and I'll throw you out of what you
THOUGHT was a perfectly timed forward kick.
And why the hell would you do a ducking strong? I can try to
throw AND block!
I play every week against the top players. I AM a top player.
Granted, I don't know it all, but I have come up against better
Ryus than you, I don't doubt. Example: Mike Watson, who won the
tournment out there... Well, I threw him out of his forward kicks.
-Matt
Henry Ha
>The whole debate is a moot point. The "perfect timing" is so
>impossible to get it is irrelevent. It's a matter of who times it
>better, because no one is going to get it perfectly.
>-Matt
KI characters especially Cinder. All you gotta do is be right next them
and do a jump kick as soon as they are on the ground but before they
are awake to block. You are suppose to purposely miss with his
jumping move or flipkick. As they are getting up, a little spark will
appear, signifiying they have been hit, even though Cinder's animation
never touched you. You cannot block it. The dragon punch as a reversal
is all wrong. You must be able to do a dragon punch before you are
able to block. That is what a retaliation move is. SF characters don't
have the ability to do moves before they can block.
-Henry Ha
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Henry,
Matt's post was referring to SF2....the game. It had nothing to do with
KI or this node-fest that everyone else is debating.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
RpM-acct2/5
>In <mwallaceD...@netcom.com> mwal...@netcom.com (Matthew Wallace) writes:
>
>
>>I am of the firm belief that there is no such thing as an unstoppable
>>attack. I believe that even a perfectly timed attack can be countered.
>>Of course, you can't even initiate a "perfectly timed attack" unless
>>your opponent is on the ground to begin with.
>>-Matt
>
>In SF2, the way you counter it is to block it.
>
>However, Killer Instinct charcters have unblockable moves. If one of
>these is used with that special timing, then there wouldn't be a damn
>thing the sf2 character could do.
yeah, but they can't be done over and over and over....
now _throws_ on the other hand.... :)
Chuck Cochems
>On the other hand, if an SF2 character knocks a KI character down, a
>major tickfest will ensue, and the KI character will lose.
Except that the KI characters can interrupt their standing up and do a
retaliation and hit the SF2 person as he attempts the tick.
Or does that only work if the other person tries an unblockable?
Even still, air based ticks don't work. The KI character can just block
the jump kick and then do a jump kick of their own, which always kits the
person who jumped in.
Sonic boom ticks are not very repeatable.
And short-short throw can just remain unblocked and then be broken like
any combo.
In short, the KIer can escape the tick, but the SF2er can't escape the
unblockable. If an unblockable knocks down, then it can be repeated ad
nauseum, with no worry, whearas the tick can be screwed up easier.
Realistically, if they are given their priviledge of unblockables, they
will beat the characters from many fighting games. Try to throw someone
who is stickin their sword in your face as you stand up in SS. Doesn't
work well, does it? Almost every fighting game has this stipulation that
an attack that hits the person the instant they get up can't be
reversed. They can, however, usually be blocked. NO people in any
fighting game besides KI have unblockable moves (with the possible
exception of a drop-kick in the back of the head in VF, and that can be
retaliated against...)
--
zap...@camelot.bradley.edu
"You are now grooving..to the hypnotic sounds of...Culture Beat"
Chuck Cochems
>The whole debate is a moot point. The "perfect timing" is so
>impossible to get it is irrelevent. It's a matter of who times it
>better, because no one is going to get it perfectly.
It is not a moot point.
This perfect timing CAN be gotten.
I have seen people who can always stop the slot machine in the original
Super Mario Brothers 2 (US version) for NES on the cherries. That
requires awfully damn good timing. This is with a plain control pad.
THis guy I saw hit the cherries every time, without any trickery.
However, with the observation made my peple who swear that the have seen
others get out of what loked like perfectly timed attacks, I have a new
theory.
It is the theory of the ideal timing.
There is a certain ideal timing fro all attacks aimed at a person
standing up.
THere is also an ideal time for initiating a "reversal attack"
If the person doing the reversal attack does the reversal attack later
than the ideal timing, any attack timed to hit when he stands wll hit.
If the attacker's attack is later than the ideal timing, then any
properly executed reversal attack will come out and beat it.
If both go over, then the attack that comes first gets it.
If neither the attack, nor the reversal is too late, then the move which
is done closer to it's iddeal time gets the priority.
Say Ken jumps in with a flying fierce which is timed 0.01 milliseconds
before the ideal time for a flying fierce, and Ryu attempts a wake-up DP
attack 0.1 milliseconds before the ideal time for a reversal attack. Ryu
will eat the Touch Of Death. However, if Ryu timed his Dragon Punch
0.009 milliseconds before the ideal time for reversal attacks, he would
get it off, and Ken would be flat on his back.
In the case of both players doing there move at precisely the same
amount of time before the ideal time for their respective moves, the
attacker would hit the defender attempting to do their reversal attack.
So with this theory, the perfectly timed attack that must be blocked DOES
exist, but if the reversal attack is bufered in early, the attack doesn't
need to be timed as well to function like a perfectly timed attack.
If this theory is true, then I also theorise that in Championship
Edition, the ties went to the DEFENDER instead.
Thusly, in Championship edition, there was a perfectly timed wake-up DP
that couldn't be stuffed. People who got that timing down never got
their wake-up DPs stuffed. Those same people who went on to play HF
would get stuffed by perfectly timed attacks, as then the ties would
start going to the attacker.
Lee Saito
[essentially unprovable theory deleted]
: If this theory is true, then I also theorise that in Championship
: Edition, the ties went to the DEFENDER instead.
: Thusly, in Championship edition, there was a perfectly timed wake-up DP
: that couldn't be stuffed. People who got that timing down never got
: their wake-up DPs stuffed. Those same people who went on to play HF
: would get stuffed by perfectly timed attacks, as then the ties would
: start going to the attacker.
Chuck, Chuck, Chuck.
You are speculating with no real-world experience to back you up.
First off, you don't even play a character that has a useful wake-up move,
in CE, anyway...Last I looked, you more or less refused to play anyone
except Chun Li. I even remember you "theorizing" that merely picking Guile
was cheap on Classic! I can't remember a single time that you have even
TRIED to stuff one of my DPs, or TUs, or FKs...
I suppose you could counter by saying "But Lee, your timing sucks!" Funny,
then, how I destroy your Chun Li with damn near any character? I know you're
fond of those jump-over throws...if my timing is so bad, how come I get the
throw most of the time? I seem to recall that I caused you to start a thread
called "Psychic Ryu/Ken players" or some other such nonsense...
As I've pointed out before, I HAVE a Champion Edition machine. It is
certainly possible that there is a timing that will defeat a "meaty"
attack. But I've never seen it, and I've never seen it done with the
regularity that you suggest. This puts your theory in doubt, since you are
not good enough at the game to do a meaty attack, much less DP out of one
(or DP at all!)...
I maintain that the players in your area didn't know how to handle Ryu/Ken's
new jumping arc when CE hit.
Chuck, I recommend you get better at the game before you sit in front of your
terminal and spout idle speculation...
--
--------------...@camelot.bradley.edu------------------------
Most ridiculous toy spotted this holiday season: The Eco-Ranger Chainsaw.
---------------...@rhf.bradley.edu--------------------------
RpM-acct2/5
>In <3h1evi$h...@saturn.haverford.edu> awe...@ralph.cs.haverford.edu (Alex Werner) writes:
>>On the other hand, if an SF2 character knocks a KI character down, a
>>major tickfest will ensue, and the KI character will lose.
>
>Except that the KI characters can interrupt their standing up and do a
>retaliation and hit the SF2 person as he attempts the tick.
well, yeah, that's why SFers occasionally fake the tick...
>Or does that only work if the other person tries an unblockable?
>
>Even still, air based ticks don't work. The KI character can just block
>the jump kick and then do a jump kick of their own, which always kits the
>person who jumped in.
this is assuming that KI block stuns apply no matter who their opponent
is.....
>Sonic boom ticks are not very repeatable.
no, but that's not a big factor...
>And short-short throw can just remain unblocked and then be broken like
>any combo.
no it can't. It's not a combo.
>In short, the KIer can escape the tick, but the SF2er can't escape the
>unblockable. If an unblockable knocks down, then it can be repeated ad
>nauseum, with no worry, whearas the tick can be screwed up easier.
the unblockables are not so repeatable as to be unescapable.
NAME
that the once invinsable dragon punch is no more?
-Al
Alex Werner
NAME <v130...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>>
>
> I know this is a stupid question, but, by reading this am I to assume
>that the once invinsable dragon punch is no more?
> -Al
yes and no. Through SSF2, Ken and Ryu's dragon punches were invincible. That
is, once the move had started, they were completely invulnerable while
going up. However, in HF and SSF2, as well as SSF2T, they could not
even start a DP if they weren't blocking while getting up and someone
hit them with a well timed (or meaty) attack.
In addition, in SSF2T the DP did lose its invlunerability. However,
Akuma's DP,, as well as SSF2 Ken and Ryu's DP, is still invulnerable, although
it still can't be done when you're getting up if someone times an attack
well.
--
Alex Werner | Math/CS | Haverford College
awe...@haverford.edu awe...@ralph.cs.haverford.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------
And then, the young man smiled...
T C Barrett
I reckon that when Pacman eats one of those big cheeses he's gonna
gobble you all up!
Tom (So can vertigo escape guile's magic throw?)
Chuck Cochems
>Chuck Cochems (zap...@camelot.bradley.edu) wrote:
>[essentially unprovable theory deleted]
>: If this theory is true, then I also theorise that in Championship
>: Edition, the ties went to the DEFENDER instead.
>: Thusly, in Championship edition, there was a perfectly timed wake-up DP
>: that couldn't be stuffed. People who got that timing down never got
>: their wake-up DPs stuffed. Those same people who went on to play HF
>: would get stuffed by perfectly timed attacks, as then the ties would
>: start going to the attacker.
>Chuck, Chuck, Chuck.
>You are speculating with no real-world experience to back you up.
I am making observations from what is posted in this group by other
people. Throughout the existence of this group, I have seen people swear
that they have seen what looked like perfectly timed attacks get
countered. This guy claims to be throwing people out of what they think
are well-timed attacks. He claims to throw Mike Watson out of
ground-based meaty attacks regularly. Someone else posted that 99.999%
of people who try to get out of his attacks eat comboes, but one person
was getting out on a regular basis.
All of this is evidence in support of my theory. Why people haven't
figured it out before is that they are usd to buffering the DP to be sure
it comes out the instant one stands. Because this buffer is considerably
before the last minute, it would stand to reason that the tiing to beat
an early buffer was discovered long before the timing of DP that could
break that same attack.
>First off, you don't even play a character that has a useful wake-up move,
>in CE, anyway...Last I looked, you more or less refused to play anyone
>except Chun Li. I even remember you "theorizing" that merely picking Guile
>was cheap on Classic! I can't remember a single time that you have even
>TRIED to stuff one of my DPs, or TUs, or FKs...
Well, that's simply because Chun Li's hang time is sooo large that she
has a hard time making ANY well timed attack against a caracter that
stands up quickly. And, of course, there is the matter of knocking you
down first..
>I suppose you could counter by saying "But Lee, your timing sucks!" Funny,
>then, how I destroy your Chun Li with damn near any character? I know you're
>fond of those jump-over throws...if my timing is so bad, how come I get the
>throw most of the time? I seem to recall that I caused you to start a thread
>called "Psychic Ryu/Ken players" or some other such nonsense...
That's mainly because I an such a bad counter-thrower. You know that.
Ypu laughed when you ticked me with Blanka. And I did get a lot of those
jump-over throws. I never got it when I tried more than once in a row,
but a lot of the times when, according to my theory of tie-breakers with
throws (the person who was last hit gets the ties) I would be getting the
throw, I DID get the jump-over throw.
When I started that other thread, someone finally explaind the real reason
my fakes didn't work (people watch my hands..)
>As I've pointed out before, I HAVE a Champion Edition machine. It is
>certainly possible that there is a timing that will defeat a "meaty"
>attack. But I've never seen it, and I've never seen it done with the
>regularity that you suggest. This puts your theory in doubt, since you are
>not good enough at the game to do a meaty attack, much less DP out of one
>(or DP at all!)...
Well, how many championship editions have you seen in action within the
last year? Besides yours? My observations (which back then were
plentiful) were that people who tried to jump in on a fallen Ryu/Ken got
dragon punched.
>I maintain that the players in your area didn't know how to handle Ryu/Ken's
>new jumping arc when CE hit.
Before Championship Edition hit, people weren't really getting wake-up
DP'd much because GUILE was busy dominating the game. When CE came in,
Ryu started dominating the game. Then when people went BACK to Classic
because the CE's joystcks were broken, THEN I started seeing wake-up DPs
getting stuffed. Guile wasn't dominating as much either.
>Chuck, I recommend you get better at the game before you sit in front of your
>terminal and spout idle speculation...
Kind of difficult when I have no TV, no system, and no SF2 game around
here to play anymore, and hardly any money to play it if there WAS one..
You show me where there is a SF2 game set on free play, and maybe I'll be
able to start improving..
--
You got the POWER!!!(Black Knight 2000)|POWERball! (Twilight Zone)
Feel the POWER of the wind! (Whirlwind)|Feel the POWER.. (Addams Family)
Never underestimate the POWER of the |FirePOWER (Firepower)
Twilight Zone....(Twilight Zone) |Okay, so I'm on a POWER trip today!)
Chuck Cochems
>Note that we are talking about CHAMPION EDITION. These people you mention
>are almost assuredly posting about things they see and do in Super Turbo.
>It is also entirely possible that they did put in a timing to defeat a
>well-timed attack.
I'd like to head down over to your championship edition and see what I
can do. Have the person trying to DP try to do it AT THE LAST POSSIBLE
MINUTE, LATER than the buffer is normally timed. My theory is that if
the DP is done as LATE AS POSSIBLE, then it will break the attack that
was "well-timed" My theory states that the better the attack is timed,
the tougher it is to wake-up DP out of it, with a totally perfect down to
the pixel attack being impossible to reverse in all versions of SF2
except CE. My theory is that in CE, to break out of a well-timed attack,
the button press or release that triggers the DP has to happen at the
exact instant that you stand up. To do that is very difficult, because
if you do the DP one internal clock tick too late, you eat the attack,
and if you do the DP one internal clock tick early, and the attack is
timed absolutely perfectly, you eat the attack. Only if you do the
wake-up DP at the PERFECT time can you break out in CE. And, of course,
as a DP involves joystick motion, it's more difficult to time a DP
perfect thaan to time a simple button press perfectly..
So to casual, and even pretty careful observation, the simpler theory
that all you have to do is time an attack well and it can't be DPed seems
valid.
>You may or may not be right. I am just pointing out that you are dead
>wrong about Champion Edition. I have talked to a few of the regulars on
>this group...and no one really knew for sure, since this "force of Ming"
>nonsense didn't happen until most of the CE machines had been converted
>to Hyper.
And you may very well be perfectly right when it comes to your
Championship Edition machine. They made more than one version, you
know.. Just as there are versions of Classic in whch all flash kicks
went the same height, and magic throws didn't exist, there may be
versions of CE without the force of Ming.
>: Well, that's simply because Chun Li's hang time is sooo large that she
>: has a hard time making ANY well timed attack against a caracter that
>: stands up quickly. And, of course, there is the matter of knocking you
>: down first..
>I used to stuff my friend's DPs with Chun Li all the time. (This was before
>he caught on, hehe ;) Instead of jumping, why not try a meaty low forward?
>You can use that palm press that you keep using as an example, too...
yeah, if I knock you down.. :) BUt how can I do that without a SF2 game
to play? do you have one in your room?
>Hehe, I never really ticked you to death, Chuck. Maybe you'd get KO'ed from
>a tick, but I never repeated one tick over and over that you couldn't get
>out of, or something...I think I did that out of mercy. ;)
Except with your Dhalsim fireball/throw tick. You ticked me to death
with that when I was Chun Li, and as I didn't have a wake-up move that
truly got me out of it, it WAS quite inescapable to me.
But for the most part, you are right. I just sucked bad at
counterthrowing. I'm much better at that jump-over throw stuff... :)
I drove many Blanka players NUTS with the jump-over throw.. when I do
the jump over throw I think I land OUTSIDE blanka's throw range when I do
it right, and he's within mine.. :) SOOOO many times they try to bite me
and I see another attack come out and I throw them...
>And hey, even though Blanka generally sucked on Super, you have to give him
>some credit...he was still a decent ticker. (I laughed because Blanka is
>one of my worst characters...plus he was crap in Super...)
Funny, at the time, you stated that Blanka was a horrible ticker.
Changed your mind, did you?
>: When I started that other thread, someone finally explaind the real reason
>: my fakes didn't work (people watch my hands..)
>Chuck, I don't watch your hands. Honest. The real reason your fakes didn't
>work against me is because you were being so damned predictable...as a few
>other netters pointed out to you, if I remember correctly...
I made those posts long before I ever played you... I wasn't referring
to you. I was still trying to get the hang of the fast speed of Hyper..
I never really tried to do that much faking on you.
>I have seen one other, but it was hacked into an "Accelerator!" machine. I
>reckon the guys who did the hack wouldn't mess with the code that governs
>wake-up DPs, though you never know...we tested it, and yes, you can time
>attacks to stop wake-up specials.
You can time attacks to stop *normally buffered specials*. But can you
stop a non-buffered special? (one that the motion is completed at the
last moment?)
>Wake-up DPed, Wake-up FKed. What's the difference? I can jump in on Guile
>and stuff his FK too...they are both wake-up specials and they will both
>eat my foot if they try to do it...
Well, back in the days of Guile dominance of Classic, people simply were
not knocking Guile down that much.. A lot of Guile wins were perfects or
near perfect..
They really weren't ABLE to learn the timing for those "well-timed
attacks" because they hardly ever got to USE them.. THAT is why I
maintain that your statement about them not being able to handle the new
arc is false, beccause they never learned the timing to begin with..
Why did they then learn it only AFTER they went back to classic?
Answer that one..
--
zap...@camelot.bradley.edu
"I owe you nothing so I will send you straight away with a rocket to the moon!"
-- Culture Beat --
Vctr113062
>writes:
>>The whole debate is a moot point. The "perfect timing" is so
>>impossible to get it is irrelevent. It's a matter of who times it
>>better, because no one is going to get it perfectly.
zap...@camelot.bradley.edu (Chuck Cochems)
>It is not a moot point.
>
>This perfect timing CAN be gotten.
>
>I have seen people who can always stop the slot machine in the original
>Super Mario Brothers 2 (US version) for NES on the cherries. That
>requires awfully damn good timing. This is with a plain control pad.
>THis guy I saw hit the cherries every time, without any trickery.
>[...]
That's not the best example. Getting cherries on the Super Mario Brothers
2 "slot machine" bonus rounds is no great skill. When the slot machines
start going the second frame to flicker upon the first window is (almost?)
always a cherry. After that, it's just a matter of learning the right
interval of time, and then it's always the same - press the button
bap-bap-bap just so and voila, cherries up the wazoo. I used to play SMB2,
& I liked to use this trick to get oh, at least 60 extra lives (helps ya
finish the tougher worlds :). And I am hardly the most coordinated/adept
at video games... getting combos with more than four hits is still a
challenge for me (KI combos don't count :)
The big difference between the SMB2 slot machine and your typical fighting
game, such as SF2, is that a fighting game has many more variables. Let's
say you want to do a "perfectly-timed" air Roundhouse kick on your
opponent as he/she gets up. You have to worry about:
-your character's jump arc
-your character's jump speed
-the nature of your character's air roundhouse (for example, Blanka's air
roundhouse is angled down, while Cammy's is horizontal)
-how long you opponent's character takes to get up
-where you begin the jump; if you want to move forward/back before
jumping, then how far should you move and should you walk or dash (as in a
Samurai Shodown dash)?
-hop jump, normal jump, or long jump? (that's from Primal Rage, but I
think other games should follow PR's lead :)
-anything else I've missed
pretty complex, though once you get used to a particular character you
become familiar with some of the variables when you play him/her...
In SF2, when I hear about "perfectly timed" jumping attacks that Ryu/Ken
cannot counter with a wake-up DP, I wonder, "can a player with
'perfect-timing' do this to the CPU?" When CPU Ryu and Ken get knocked
down, they often like to do a DP as they get up, should you be so
foolhardy as to jump in. So, can anyone out there use their timing to jump
kick the CPU before it can do the DP? (hitting Ryu/Ken out of their
vulnerable TSSF2 DP doesn't count, and is beside the point anyway).
Somehow, I doubt it...
Victar
"Velociraptor's a pack hunter, you see. He's using coordinated attack
patterns and he's out in force today. He slashes at you with a six-inch
retractable claw, like a razor, on the middle toe. They don't bother to go
for the jugular. They just cut across your belly, spilling your
intestines. Point is, you're still alive when they start to eat."
- Dr. Grant, _Jurassic Park_
Lee Saito
: In SF2, when I hear about "perfectly timed" jumping attacks that Ryu/Ken
: cannot counter with a wake-up DP, I wonder, "can a player with
: 'perfect-timing' do this to the CPU?" When CPU Ryu and Ken get knocked
: down, they often like to do a DP as they get up, should you be so
: foolhardy as to jump in. So, can anyone out there use their timing to jump
: kick the CPU before it can do the DP? (hitting Ryu/Ken out of their
: vulnerable TSSF2 DP doesn't count, and is beside the point anyway).
: Somehow, I doubt it...
Yes, you can. I can jump in on a fallen CPU Ken with impunity. Usually,
instead of eating the combo, the CPU opponent will block...
Alex Werner
Vctr113062 <vctr1...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>In SF2, when I hear about "perfectly timed" jumping attacks that Ryu/Ken
>cannot counter with a wake-up DP, I wonder, "can a player with
>'perfect-timing' do this to the CPU?" When CPU Ryu and Ken get knocked
>down, they often like to do a DP as they get up, should you be so
>foolhardy as to jump in. So, can anyone out there use their timing to jump
>kick the CPU before it can do the DP? (hitting Ryu/Ken out of their
>vulnerable TSSF2 DP doesn't count, and is beside the point anyway).
>Somehow, I doubt it...
>
well, you're wrong
--
Alex Werner | Math/CS | Haverford College
awe...@haverford.edu awe...@ralph.cs.haverford.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------
Faith may move mountains, but what's going to get this boil off my butt?
John Bigelow
: -Henry H
D
So what you're saying is that a KI'er can't block the instant it gets up? That
there is a split second of vulnerability in between the time it gets up and
the time it can begin to block? Sounds like the KI'ers would all get slaughteredbecause ANYONE from ANY node could take advantage of this vulnerability. Hell,
a Time Killer could beat a KI'er this way! HA!
-Virtual Adepta
AKE.
> I know this is a stupid question, but, by reading this am I to assume
> that the once invinsable dragon punch is no more?
> -Al
It is no more if you choose turbo ryu/ken. But Akuma , White Ryu
and Red Ken still have it. May I repeat again that I am very PISSED with
Capcom for taking away Turbo Ryu's invincible Dragon Punch. Its just NOT
Ryu without the mighty Sheng Long. Chris Kramer you heard that???
-DP 4/ever
Carlo emilio Ang - MECE/W94
: It is no more if you choose turbo ryu/ken. But Akuma , White Ryu
: and Red Ken still have it. May I repeat again that I am very PISSED with
: Capcom for taking away Turbo Ryu's invincible Dragon Punch. Its just NOT
: Ryu without the mighty Sheng Long. Chris Kramer you heard that???
Funny, this is the same guy who, in a post below (called- HONOR was
re: Toronto tournament) implied that sf2 is about adapting to
our inadequacies. If you believe that people who cry cheap should
learn how to deal with throws, and that it only takes a big
mouth to cry cheap. Then I ask what it takes to type PISSED about
a missing invincible DP. You suggested we adapt to throws, then why
not suggest to yourself to adapt to the new (and more interesting
Ryu).
Personally, I would rather be beaten by Ryu's new downward punch,
rather than fireball traps that have been so done to death. It's like
hearing more chicken jokes than Seinfeld jokes.
Lanzer
>> I know this is a stupid question, but, by reading this am I to assume
>> that the once invinsable dragon punch is no more?
Ryu and Ken in Turbo move only has invincibility during the first
few frames of the DP, the pose which does more damage, granting 1000 points
if hit.
> It is no more if you choose turbo ryu/ken. But Akuma , White Ryu
>and Red Ken still have it. May I repeat again that I am very PISSED with
>Capcom for taking away Turbo Ryu's invincible Dragon Punch. Its just NOT
>Ryu without the mighty Sheng Long. Chris Kramer you heard that???
Hey, I don't see anything wrong with making the 300 point pose
vulnerable. This sets the differences between amature and expert players
where the same tactic might work for the more experienced players only
since for those who DP too early will get hit. Personally I always try
to DP opponents on the 1000 point pose anyways, and I know my friends won't
be impressed if they see me hitting people with the 300 point pose.
--
--=/ Name: Derek Liu |=| Handle: Lanzer |=| E-mail: de...@unixg.ubc.ca \=--
--=| Suffering at: the British Columbia Institute of Technology, Canada.|=--
--=| Hobbies: Anime, Manga, SF2, SNES & VJAC. Author of SFLIUv2.20 too! |=--
--=\ More news: Yup, SFLIU V2.20 is out. What's new? Beats me here... /=--
Scott D Bradburn
|> Hey, I don't see anything wrong with making the 300 point pose
|> vulnerable. This sets the differences between amature and expert players
|> where the same tactic might work for the more experienced players only
|> since for those who DP too early will get hit. Personally I always try
|> to DP opponents on the 1000 point pose anyways, and I know my friends won't
|> be impressed if they see me hitting people with the 300 point pose.
You do it to impress your friends? You know, there's a reason for the additional
points and difficulty... It does about 4 times as much damage if you get it
nice and deep. I could care less about impressing people. But that damage is
important if you want to win.
Ryu, a god of sf2
>
>
It's not that much of a problem having a vulnerable dragon punch. It
makes you more effecient with it, bringing it out when needed (i.e.
punching late for more damage). However, I agree that it gets annoying
not being able to use it defensively (i.e. fierce dp through fireball).
Ryu
Lanzer
<sigh> I just took it that gamers on this newsgroup would naturally
know that more points means more damage. Sorry if I didn't clearfy it for
amature or beginner players.
No, my friends won't be impressed by me scoring more points because
I hit the guy with this DP pose, they would be impressed because I'm
inflicting more damage and because I timed it right, naturally.
Who thinks that I do the move just to
impress my friend but not to imflict more damage raise your hands. (Who
thinks that I don't know the 1000 point pose does more damage raise your
legs. :)
Richard Weremiuk
: Henry Ha (st...@Rosie.UH.EDU) wrote:
: So what you're saying is that a KI'er can't block the instant it gets up? That
: there is a split second of vulnerability in between the time it gets up and
: the time it can begin to block? Sounds like the KI'ers would all get slaughteredbecause ANYONE from ANY node could take advantage of this vulnerability. Hell,
: a Time Killer could beat a KI'er this way! HA!
Im afraid not, no......If a retaliation move is performed, and every
character has one, then, Its blockable....
Its a fairly pointless exercise, Versing characters from different
arcades against each other anyway........But for my money, KI combos are
so venemous that, since no combo breakers exist on other games
then...death would be swift for the non KIer.
Rich
: -Virtual Adepta
The mad bassist
gone over already and I was just too damn blind to read the post.) How can
anyone be sure that sf2 characters can't break KI combos??? (I know that sf2
characters don't combo break each other, but then again, when was the
last time you saw a sf2 character do a 14+ hit combo.) As I see it, most KI
combos have at least one "delay spot" in their combos where the other
player, if he's lucky, can perform a combo breaker. Why can't a sf2
character take advantage of the same opportunity?? One could use Ken or
Ryu's DP (Why not?? Fulgore and Jago get away with it!!), Guile's flash
kick (albeit this would be tough...), or Zangief's spinning attack etc.
No one can be sure since the two nodes haven't been combined yet (if ever
they will...) I may be wrong but then again, who can tell???
Flame if you dare...
--the mad bassist
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Duty is heavier than a mountain, death lighter than a feather..."
--Rober Jordan
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RpM-acct2/5
> I would just like to voice a question. (and forgive me if this has been
>gone over already and I was just too damn blind to read the post.) How can
>anyone be sure that sf2 characters can't break KI combos???
you're about to answer your own question...
> (I know that sf2 characters don't combo break each other,
general rule in the DT is that you come with all the powers you
got, nothing more and nothing less. This means NOBODY
but them pesky KIers combo break.
> but then again, when was the
>last time you saw a sf2 character do a 14+ hit combo.)
Hm.... got halfway there with Dee Jay....
Alex Werner
RpM-acct2/5 <csc...@rosie.uh.edu> wrote:
>
>Dee: 9/10 hitter (super combo & luck needed)
>Balrog: 8/10 hitter (big target needed, Super mode Balrog)
>
>I bet Chunner can get near the 10 mark....
Chun li can do flying fierce-2xjab-SC-2 hit triple kick for 11 hits.
DJ can do 10 hits without even using his SC.
Balrog can do >100% damage with one combo
Ryu can do neck fierce-rushing punch-crouching strong-crouching forward-SC
for 10 hits. Zangief can do neck flying fierce-crouching jabx4-standing jab-
green hand-SC for 10 hits and +- 95% damage. (Only a true combo against
a few characters, like Bison.)
Anyway, as for this whole stupid KI vs SF2 argument, since KI combo breakers
can only interrupt certain moves at certain times (as I understand it), there's
no reason to think that any of the SF2 combos will include those breakable
times. And as for repeatedly using unblockable attacks as a SF2 character
gets up, most special moves cannot be done with perfect timing, and even
if they can, the latest thinking from sunnyvale Golfland (the home of the
best US SF2 characters, probably) is that with truly perfect timing, a SF2
character can actually throw or DP out of even a meaty attack.
And SF2 characters can still tick KI characters to death.
And to be honest, the most damaging
SF2 combo is nastier than any KI combo, although
it's almost impossible to get off.
--
Alex Werner | Math/CS | Haverford College
awe...@haverford.edu awe...@ralph.cs.haverford.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------
Algebraists do it. But at least they're discrete about it
RpM-acct2/5
>In article <13FEB199...@rosie.uh.edu>,
>RpM-acct2/5 <csc...@rosie.uh.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>>Dee: 9/10 hitter (super combo & luck needed)
>>Balrog: 8/10 hitter (big target needed, Super mode Balrog)
>>
>>I bet Chunner can get near the 10 mark....
>
>Chun li can do flying fierce-2xjab-SC-2 hit triple kick for 11 hits.
*doh* I knew I should have remembered this one....
>DJ can do 10 hits without even using his SC.
er... How? I'm assuming jabs & the MGU is involved, yes?
>Balrog can do >100% damage with one combo
Er... with SC I assume? Is it the Meaty TAP - SC combo?
>Ryu can do neck fierce-rushing punch-crouching strong-crouching forward-SC
>for 10 hits.
=O Daaaaamn..... don't think I'll ever be able to pull that one
off. Looks like it takes some serious Ryu-skill involved, and
I only have average...
> Zangief can do neck flying fierce-crouching jabx4-standing jab-
>green hand-SC for 10 hits and +- 95% damage. (Only a true combo against
>a few characters, like Bison.)
-RpM
Chuck Cochems
You can even break after the first hit.
So yes, you can break it before it's a combo..
If you use the proper button for the strength of attack when doing the
combo breaker, you can break the combo.
Weak breaks strong, middle breaks weak, and strong breaks middle. Unless
you do the combo breaker code, then ANY button breaks any combo. (combos
are useless..)
So the KIers, if they are brought in with all their abilities, can just
break after the first hit, and avoid all tick sby letting the first
attack hit them, then doing da combo breaker. NOBODY could combo them,
and they would be knocked down by the combo breaker and then, especially
if the KIer is Cinder, just keep on with the unblockables, and they can't
retaliate, and if they do break out, they are limited to walk-in throw
attempts or their combos will get broken, and then the KI-er gets the big
old combo off. Orchid can keep her combo going for a damn long time,
and, when it goes unbroken, gets 22 hits without an Ultra... Eyedol has
that 80 hit combo...
Only the VF2ers, with their mega damaging moves and their ability to
dodge to the side and go around the other person (they CAN in VF2) would
realistically beat those KI people... In fact, their dodging ability
would take them VERY far. I wouldn't be suprised if Akira won DT3 if it
ws done on the basis of actual likelyhood of winning... He can dodge
every fireball, break defensive stances up, and do mega damage..
(I remember that in DT1 Vega lost to Guile because of a lack of
masculinity and that Guile lost to Chun Li because of too much of it...)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
zap...@camelot.bradley.edu
"Save the earth!" -- Culture Beat
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Raven
(Chuck Cochems) wrote:
> Only the VF2ers, with their mega damaging moves and their ability to
> dodge to the side and go around the other person (they CAN in VF2) would
> realistically beat those KI people... In fact, their dodging ability
> would take them VERY far. I wouldn't be suprised if Akira won DT3 if it
> ws done on the basis of actual likelyhood of winning... He can dodge
> every fireball, break defensive stances up, and do mega damage..
>
I've said it before, I'll say it again.
KOF'ers would kill KI'ers pretty easily. Just keep on AB dodging, and
since KI'ers can't throw, there's no way to possibly hit them. If a KIer
gets even close, instant throw (particularly with Goro Daimon).
Raven