Sabin's B4 Log - LOOONG

[Arturo Sanchez]

Sabin's B4 Log.

First off, I'd like to say that B4 was the best tourney I've ever been to in
my whole life - (and that's not saying much,
I'm only 17 :P) Huge props go out to Tom & Tony Cannon (and anyone else who
was involved) for making it all work. I'll
definetely be at B5 (or whatever) next time.

This is going to be pretty long, so get ready -_-

Thursday @ 9:30 PM

After numerous delays and switched flights (priceline.com sucks, man!) I
finally arrived in San Francisco. The original
plan was to have David Sirlin pick me up in Sacramento, and I would meet up
with the Cannons, Omni, and the rest of the
gang. But because of flight changes and what-not (Stupid Priceline!) I ended
up in San Francisco. Fortunately, I had made
plans before-hand in case something like this happened. So I had my friends
Mike/Ishmael (Lawd/Bathory, fellow
Perfect-Zero.com staffers) pick me up, and I ended up spending the next day
in ghetto Oakland. Ugh. o_O I think Lawd
pointed out 20 hookers to me on the street, as well. Ugh...At that point, I
knew my fragile little mind was going to be
corrupted that weekend... -_-

I won't go into much of what happened that night. Let's just say they got me
drunk, and I owned them all in A3/3s/MVC2
on the DC. :P

Friday @ 3:30 PM

OK. After staying at Lawd's house for most of the day trying to get Sirlin's
# on #capcom (yes, I'm irresponsible, I
lost Sirlin's # somehow) to no avail, Lawd decides to take me to the "Oak
Tree" arcade. He told the players before hand
that the "Midwest MVC2 champ" was coming to their arcade or something - so
when I went there, I was greeted accordingly.
I didn't even have to say anything, and suddenly there were like 20+ players
surrounded around me. I destroyed them in 3s
with my Ryu. On A3, I lost quite a few games due to the fact that the
machine kept shaking (the controls were not screwed
in properly) and my fierce button was quite dodgy, so I couldn't get any
grabs at all =/ Oak Tree isn't the greatest place
for A3 comp either, with the exception of the "legendary" Heiro (who is Oak
Tree's best player.)

Then I moved onto the MVC2 machine. I didn't trust the controls on this
machine either (I couldn't get out DP's very well,
which is a must for Strider.) I thought the Oak Tree players were weak-sauce
in MVC2 at first, but they surprised me quite
a bit. I spent like 4 hours playing there, and the highest winning streak I
got was 20 wins. I got beat by Heiro quite a bit
with his pressure tactics, as well as losing to other random players every
now and then. As soon as I lost a game, the
arcade went CRAZY. Mad fools yelling all over the place "OAK TREE! OAK
TREEEEE!!!!" hehe.

One thing I noticed about WC players in MVC2 (at least the majority of them)
is that they are ALL attack. Constantly.
They'll keep trying to rush you down - and they do a pretty good job of
rushing down people too (this is MVC2 we're
talking about, after all.) EC is all about turtling and jump back fierce. :P
This was a pretty good training session for me,
since prior to Oak Tree, I had no experience playing against rushers in
MVC2. The players there also use triple teams quite
a bit...which is something I think the top players are lacking for the most
part. I would call a helper, and they would
triple team it with something like... Hulk/IM/Anakaris, and the helper would
lose 90% or more. Ouch. I definetely have to
mess around with triple teams more, which is something that I lack in my
game.

Anyway, the final score vs. the Oak Tree players was something like 60 to 8.
:P I leave with Lawd and Heiro to pack our
stuff, and hop on a Greyhound bus to Sacramento (and no, I still don't have
Sirlin's # by this time. =/ ) We get there at
like 11:45 or something. Heiro's uncle was supposed to pick us up (and drive
us up to Folsom) but we couldn't get through
to him. Oh well. We had no way of getting into Folsom, so we got a hotel
room for the night. I got some practice in 3s/MVC,
showed Heiro some new things, then went to bed.

Saturday @ 9:00 AM - B4 Day 1

Ok, it was the big day, and we were obviously pressed for time. So the three
of us left as early as possible. We caught
the lightrail (is that what it's called?) to somewhere outside Folsom,
caught another bus, then a taxi to the Gameroom.
I think we got there at something like, 10:30 - 11PM. As i look around I
notice many people are there yet. I greet Ponder
and inkblot, put my stuff in the back, and walk around to see who's here. I
see Derek Daniels (omni) and Scott A, and I
greet them both. I also get a call from Mike D and Henry Cen at 11:00,
before the A3 tourney is about to start. Mike is
stuck and has no ride, and Henry tells me that he is NOT getting there until
AFTER the A3 tourney starts. Mike eventually
gets there on time, but Henry was put in the losers bracket (for A3) cause
he arrived there too late. Oh well.. =/

I get introduced to Image, someone who I've been talking to on the net for
2+ years about Marvel games. He introduces
me to the legendary Duc :P and I kneel to him, bow, and say, "Oh my god,
it's the Legendary Duc!" I'm not worthy! I'm
not worthy!" Hehehe. I greet some more fools, like FlipMeign (Mark Acero)
and DreamTR (Jason Wilson) and my fellow jailbait,
Floe (Ari Weitraub). Then I meet Viscant, who gives me this damn scary
stare. I was scared to shake that dude's hand. For
the past two weeks, he's been talking about how he's going to molest me and
Floe *shudder* So I go on the MVC2 machine,
play with scrub teams for a little bit w/ Eddie, and then Alpha 3 begins...

A3 tourney - 12PM

OK. Alpha 3 was obviously going to be the biggest tourney of the day, and it
was something I was looking forward to. For
some reason, 99% of the players in the nation can't fight EC runaway Vega. I
always manage to do well with him (getting
top 5) before I get dominated by Choi/Valle. I was hoping for the same luck
today. :) But out of all the tourneys I've
been to, this tourney had the smallest scrub ratio. Maybe because it's a
Cali tourney, I suppose... I don't remember much
about my initial A3 matches. I just remember doing jump back fierce a lot,
killing them with the roll custom, and climbing
on the fence. Hehe. A couple of matches later, I'm called to play Alex on
the big screen. OMG. I've had to play Alex in all
three tourneys this year, and I got peaced out every time. I always do
manage to win a round tho, mainly cause he gives
them to me, I think :P Alex knows that Vega gets raped by Akuma, so he picks
V-Akuma against me. First game I lose quickly,
almost winning a round. 2nd game, Alex starts short HK'ing me to death. I
was hoping he wouldn't do that, since Vega can't
do much against short HK's (in other games as well..not just A3) He does
like 10 short HK's on me in a row, and I can't do
anything. Every time I try to poke him, I eat another hurricane kick. Oh
well. I did manage to win a round in that set tho.
:)

I then had to play Jason Cole (he has a bigger fro than me! ;_;) I managed
to beat him at ECC2K, and I'm sure he was looking
forward to his revenge. I remember him mentioning something like "I have
something for that Vega.." and I was a little
nervous. I was hoping that he wouldn't pick X-Balrog, and he did. X-Balrog
is a hard fight for V-Vega because he can
reverse you so easily...all you have to do is keep poking, and then he'll
blow right through with a super for 60% dmg.
Ouch. Plus he beats Vega's pokes on the ground...I think his low strong
beats Vega's low fwd and low strong. Ugh. I did
manage to win a set in that game, but Cole eventually came out victorious.
Oh well. I did get to watch him lose to
Eddie's V-Karin. Cole picked V-Dhalsim (!) and lost that "for free" match.
^_^ Then I went on to watch Eddie beat Watson,
but eventually, he would get peaced out by Choi and Valle (as usual, sigh.)
Damn, those two are just on another level in A3.
Especially Choi...he managed to beat Valle 4-0 and getting a perfect on the
final round!

Super Turbo

I didn't enter this tourney, nor did I Watch much of it, because I didn't
get any hardcore training prior to B4. Noone plays
ST in NYC =/ Image told me his "theory" about ST (which I think is true to a
extent..if you're not 20+, you can't play ST
because you're too young to play old-school games, and therefore, you're not
OG. I think that's sooo true...Eddie lost his
first match to Joey the Giant Peach :P (MrWizard) for free. I don't remember
who else he lost to tho. As for me, I was off
in my own world getting 45+ wins in MVC with one of my scrub teams
(Cammy/Doom/Cable.) Ok, that's a pretty good team, but I
don't really play Cammy/Cable at all..so sue me. I think I finally lost to
Viscant, mainly because he was trying to cop a
feel on me during the whole match. I got really, really, really scared. -_-

After I lose, I then go to check up on ST. Jason Deharas (Shirts) got 4th,
and I see Valle/Watson going at it in the finals.
(I'm not going to comment on the controversy about this match - Viscant
already went into detail about it.) So Watson wins
his game, and gets points for his Japan trip. At this point, Eddie knows he
has to win 3s..

Also, there's one thing I want to say: I WILL be the first next gen player
to be good at ST! Hehe.

SF3: 3s

This was another tourney I was looking forward to, even though there were
such a small # of players. I don't know why
everyone hates SF3:3s so much..it's such a fun and competitive game (I hate
2i because of overpowered Akuma/Ibuki crap, and
the high/low universal overhead game..) 3s gets rid of all that crap. Even
though Chun is the best char in the game, she has
weaknesses (she's high parry bait) and noone is really useless. You'd be
surprised how good every char is in 3s. And
kara-throwing people to death is fun too :) Anyway, I just wish more people
would play that game, it's my current fav
right now...

As usual, I don't remember much of my initial matches. I just remember kara
throwing fools to death with Ryu and owning
fools with Makoto. I did see some cool stuff in between my fights..like
Scott A vs Hsien Chang in 3s (wtf, Scott plays 3s?
with Akuma/Ibuki no doubt.) Hsien was toying with Scott for the most part,
and it was pretty funny. On the last fight (
Akuma v. Hugo) Hsien used the Raging Demon for anti-air, passing STRAIGHT
through Hugo's jump RH. LOL. Hsien is too dope
in that game :)

Also something to note: This was the first 3s tourney in which I saw SOOO
many Chun-Li players. My GOD. I've never seen so
many Chun-Li players before. I guess everyone finally found out the power of
Chun after SJG :P Watson came up to me before
one of his matches, and said "Hey Furby! This match is for you, bro.." I
didn't know WTF he was talking about until he picked
Chun-Li. LOL. Even Valle plays Chun-Li now, too...and so does Hsien...wtf is
everyone coming to? o_O

Anyway...my first serious 3s match was against Valle. Ugh. I almost managed
to beat him at SJG with my Makoto, (going down
to the last game, last round) in a match that NOONE saw. Damn. I knew I
wasn't going to have the same luck this time..as
expected, he picked Shinkuu Ryu, and played a LOT smarter than he did at
SJG. I coudln't dash in because he was predicting
me and keeping me out with normal/EX FB's. And I would fall for his mind
games too...for example, he would throw me in the
corner, and stay in kara-throw range but wait for me to do something. He
would wait for me to whiff a throw (I was scared of
getting grabbed, so I would try to tech) and then he would do a low fwd into
a EX Hurricane Kick. Ouch. I should have done
the option select tech (crouch and try to tech instead so I do a jab instead
of a whiffed throw if I miss) but I was playing
stupid. Also, I wouldn't punish his sweeps...usually, when Makoto blocks a
low rh, that's a free fierce dash punch, but I
would try to dash up and choke (like a idiot) and I ended up getting thrown,
every time. I was attacking way too much. At
least I won a round (I think...)

Most of my matches in the losers bracket weren't too hard....I had to play
Ricky (best MVC2 No. Cali player) and I beat him
rather quickly w/Makoto. He didn't know how to stop her mind games. ^.^ Then
I had to play against Viscant's Hyper Bomb Alex,
but I wasn't scared that much, since Alex is one of my main 3s characters. I
kara-threw him to death with Ryu. :P He scared
me after our fight, tho. I shook his hand, and he wouldn't let go of me. o_O

AFterwards, Viscant and I talked for a little bit, he showed me a picture of
him with his ex-GF, (Wolvie) and then he was
telling me how Erika (the Chun-Li girl at SJG) was the perfect girl for
him...then he proceeded to tell me how he would be
competing w/ me for Erika at the MVC2 nationals. LOL! Viscant is such a pedo
:)

Anyway...back to 3s. My next hard fight was against Watson. I was somewhat
confident I'd do okay in this match - and this
was a game I was really looking forward to playing Mike in. He picked Ken, I
played Makoto. First game I fell for the same
mindgames that Alex did on me, and I got peaced out quickly. Damn, I forgot
how to fight Ken. I was thinking of playing
Alex, but I don't like that match v. Ken since he has way too much priority
on his jumpins. Also, if I try to poke Ken, I
usually get supered. I then considered picking Ryu, but I refrained from it
in the end - I'm sure Watson has WAY too much
Ryu experience, mostly because he plays Valle quite a bit, and his Ryu is
superior to mine...SO I was like, "oh well, screw
it" and I picked Makoto again. He then told me, "WTF, you're not picking
Chun?" I low forwarded him to death in the 1st
round. In the 2nd, I should have won it, and I was looking for him to do a
Shippu reversal super on my pokes, and the one
time I try to poke (I was playing really defensive and turtlish) he supers
me...I was a little pissed, because that was ALL
I was looking for him to do.

On the 3rd round, I started dominating Watson, getting him with a chokehold
into a super combo, bringing his life down to
40%. Then, I was up by like 80%, and then Watson started turtling up on me
(smart move.) I got frustrated, and I tried to
rush him down, which is exactly what he wanted...he started grabbing me to
death, and then I got caught by short short super
quite a bit. Peace out. I was a little frustrated with my performance in 3s,
but oh well. I watch the rest of the 3s high-
lights..like MrWizard beating Eddie's Ibuki w/ his Chun! (Ibuki v. Chun is a
match in Ibuki's favor, IMO. At least when it
comes to Eddie's Ibuki.) He then had to switch up to Chun v. Chun to
win..ugh. The biggest upset of the night was
Choi beating Eddie in 3s. Choi had a whole gameplan for Eddie this time
around...apparently, Hsien and Choi were practicing
against Eddie's best chars (Chun/Ibuki) at Valle's 4th of July
barberque...and apparently, it paid off. Eddie went off to
lose to Hsien, who's Yang just dominated Eddie's Ibuki/Chun. Wow. So since
Hsien was prepared for Eddie this time, Eddie
ended up in 4th place. I then went on to see Hsien getting dominated by
Valle's Chun-Li (LOL...even Alex plays Chun now :P)

Then, on Machine 4, DoCBoM installed a MVC1 machine finally! So Viscant and
I decided to start playing...tragic said
something on the mic like..."All Marvel scrubs report to machine 4!" Hehe.
Jay peaced out my Wolvie with his Gief, and from
that point, I didn't lose for a long time. Eddie came over and we decided to
tag team with Strider/Hulk. Hulk was owning
fools in for free matches over and over again. Hulk was beating DWM players,
almost perfected Viscant/Scott, and it was
owning Image's RV. I think the score by the end of the night was like 22-3.
I did exorcise my demons v .Viscant tho. No
magical pass right through FAB's for him....and the best part about it all
was: Omni was watching us dominate them. :)

By this time, it was like 1AM, so we all packed in Sirlin's SUV to sleep at
his parent's house (this was me, Tin, Omni,
Image, Crowbait, Jae Puervis, Mike D, and Eddie.) We all stayed up talking
for a little bit, and then went to bed.

Day 2: Alpha 2, and MVC2

Alpha 2

We all got back to the Gameroom at about 11, where everyone was getting some
practice for the A2 tourney. I was going
to that tourney with NO worries at all - since I've only played A2 a total
of like, 40 times or something. I only
started playing that game at SJG - when Omni, Sirlin and Seth asked me to
play - since then, I've been hooked. I did
get some training from a MIT player, so I was kind of prepared, sorta....In
the practice games, I was getting rocked by
Jason Wilson. Damn Chun... My first match was against Martin Vega. I was
watching him play A3 and 3s the other day, and I
was pretty impressed by him, to say the least...the first thing I said to
him was "OK, this is going to be a quick and easy
fight, since I don't play A2." He said he didn't play A2 that much
either...so I picked Rolento, (a character that he wanted to pick) and
instead, he picked Charlie. Having no experience in A2, I got quickly peaced
out by Charlie on the first game. I picked
Rolento again, and during the 2nd game, I killed him with the help of 40 low
fierces. Heh. Not messing up your customs
helps, too. Third game - he picked Chun, and I got wrecked. God dammit, I
hate Chun in A2! Priority bitch...well, anyway,
I went into the losers bracket in one as expected. :P

My first match in the losers was against Peter (Mouko) - another guy I have
been talking to online for quite a bit. We
both picked Rolento, and I out-low fierced him and counter CC'ed him to win
the match 2 straight. I was quite
pleased that I didn't go out in two. ^_^ My next match was against Hsien
Chang, the "Texas Techer". He doesn't play A2
that much either, so I assumed that he was going to go with a shoto, and he
did. Ryu v. Rolento. When I played him, he
was turtling SO much! God damn, he reminded me of....me. :) Never jumping,
rarely CC/AC'ing, just sitting in the corner
throwing FB's ALL day. I was surprised how well that worked..he managed to
beat me a game...but I did manage to out-turtle
him in the second game by busting out my Vega A3 skills. Hit him once, say
"Oh good! I'm up!" Then jump back for 99 seconds.
Hehe. :P

My next match was against Afro-thunder Cole - Battle of the Fros. Heh. I was
a little nervous - espeically since the match
was being played on the big screen. Heh. He played Charlie - and I picked
Rolento. Unlike Martin Vega's Charlie, Cole's
Charlie was damn aggressive - he was grabbing me a LOT. And instead of
trying to jump back or CC'ing him - I tried to tech,
which was a mistake. 1st game, I got wrecked - bad. He grabbed me like 10
times that game to win the match. 2nd game,
I adapted somewhat and started running away as soon as I had a lead. 3rd
game is kind of a blur - all I remember is the
final round, when I CC'ed him in the beginning to take off like 2092900293%
damage, then running away for the rest of the
match for the win. I was soooo surprised I beat Cole, which is something I
didn't expect to do.

But my end had to come somewhere, and it came in the form of David Sirlin.
Once my name was called, I was thinking, "OMG,
I'm playing Mr. Low Strong himself...time to get peaced out." He picked
Rose, and I picked Rolento (duh.) I did surprisingly
well as a matter of fact, and I don't know if he was toying around with me
or whatever, but - I had him beat on the 2nd
round - and I tried to run away, but couldn't. As soon as I landed, he CC'ed
me, and I lost. Ugh. FlipMeign said something
cool like "Arturo is desperately searching for his assist now" or something.
And someone yelled "Doctor Doom Jump Back
Fierce!" too. Heh. :P 2nd game, I don't know how, but I somehow managed to
win it. Sirlin tried to do like 90238490849023
23894389423440234903889034089 low strongs, and they didn't work. Then he
switched to Ryu....first round, I got killed by
40 red fb's and low strongs. 2nd round, same thing. Oh well. I was quite
pleased with my performance in A2, especially
since I just started playing the game...

I watched the rest of the A2 highlights (while meeting and chatting with
Fluff/Jinmaster at the same time.) I saw Eddie
wreck Watson in A2 only to get raped by Choi. Ugh. As usual, Choi/Alex ended
up dominating A2...

MVC2

OK. This was the tourney everyone was waiting for at B4, and the # of people
entering certainly reflected that. 70+ people
entered. Wow. The pot was about $500+, which was pretty hefty. The Cannons
did something intresting with the MVC2 tourney
as well. First, there was a bounty on Duc. Like Viscant said in his log, Duc
Hunt 2000 was on. Heh. Anyone who put Duc
in the losers bracket would get a free shirt. Also, anyone who got a 120 hit
combo would cause a T-shirt to be thrown into
the crowd. It was then lowered to 100, cause people are weak. :P Eventually,
the Cannons stopped throwing away free shirts
because someone stole like 4 or something like that. =/

At the same time, this was also Eddie's last chance to gain the 3rd spot on
the US National Team...

Eddie and I both get byes for our first matches, so this gives us a chance
to scope out the competition. We watch Duc play,
and while he is one of the best players I have ever seen, yes, he's not GOD
like people make him out to be. He's definetely
beatable, and he's mortal like the rest of us. I was a bit annoyed as to how
overhyped he was...anyway, I watched him thrash
some unsuspecting player (like everyone else in the arcade) and all I heard
were "oohs" and "aahs" even though he was messing
up his Spiral traps occasionally. Bleh. I'll say this much - Duc's Spiral
owns mine. For free.

My first match was against some unsuspecting player who's heard of me
before. I never had a player truly fear me before - so
I used this to my advantage. I picked my "test" team - Doom/Cable/Cammy -
and rushed down the poor guy. He played
Tron/Cable/? I don't remember his 3rd char, all I remember is everyone
watching me and winning the match. Bleh. My second
match (which Apoc was so generous to get on the mic and announce my match
with a dope freestyle rap ^_^) was against Jackson
from Portland. As I understand it, this is someone that Stilt Man plays
with, frequently. I let him pick first, and as soon
as I saw him pick a top tier team (Doom/Cable/BH) I knew I had to stop
messing around...so I picked Doom/Strider/BH. First
game I made mincemeat of him - apparently, in their arcade, he's had no
experience against the Strider/Doom trap. He had
problems blocking my crossup teleports, so I used that to my advantage and
rushed that fool down. Peace out. Game 2 - He
obviously caught on to the way I was calling my helpers. He would AHVB
before my helper even came out, and then one second
later, the helper would come in accordingly, to get hit. Yikes. I was being
too predictable. What really got me scared was
when I called a eagle w/ Strider to see what he would do, and he AHVB'ed it.
Oops. I knew that I shouldn't be messing around
- but by then, I only had BH left, and there was no way I was coming back.

3rd game. Jackson's weakness is that he puts Cable first. I baited him into
wasting a level so I could rush him down. He
took the bait accordingly, hitting my Blackheart. I whittled him down with
Doom/BH for a bit, then I called in Strider.
I remember him AHVB'ing my Strider accordingly, then fools went crazy. I
don't remember too much as to what happened here,
except that I killed his Cable (finally) and his BH came in. My Strider was
in, and I called BH out, and he HOD'ed me and
I got hit. I remember being down to 15% for Doom/Strider (BH died at this
point) vs his 30% BH/Doom. My Doom was then
whittled down to 5%, and I knew I had to get out. At this point, I seriously
thought I was going to lose. I did a Photon
Array into orbs, and then "rushed that shit down" for the win. Barely.

Afterwards, Jackson was walking around, and I talked to him for a bit. I
then asked him if he's heard of "Stilt Man". He
didn't, and I then described the characters he played and he seemed to
remember. I then told him how this "Stilt Man" guy
was talking up and down on alt.games.sf2 about how Rogue was really, really,
really, good. He said something like "Don't
worry about it".

Stilt Man, if you're reading this (and you probably are) - Yes, Jackson is
good - one of the better players I've ever played
- I'll give you that much. But if you honestly do believe that Rogue is/was
THAT good, and that the Strider/Doom trap is
overhyped, then I guess you must be on crack or something..seriously. I
don't know what to say. Jackson says that noone has
ever done the Strider/Doom trap where you people play at, so that might
explain it.

Rogue cannot escape the Strider/Doom trap, no matter what. If there was/is
any chance of her airdashing away, BH stops her
dead in her tracks. Cammy helps, but she won't help enough to stop Rogue
from dying. I almost wish I could play you so I
could show you the error of your ways, seriously. I'm not going to try to
convince you any more, because this topic has
been discussed to death with you.

My next match was a crucial match in the tourney - myself v. Valle
(again. -_-) We should have done a blind pick - he was
waiting on me. I picked Strider/Doom/BH on him, and he picked
Cable/Sentinel/Doom. OK. I will admit that I don't have much
experience v. Sentinel. He was stomping on me quite a bit before I decided
to start shooting him down with jump back fierce.
Heh. Eventually I called my Strider in, and it was Strider v. Cable. I got
caught in a AHVB, so that was peace out for me
losing the first game. I picked the same team again (which is a no-no) and I
managed to not get AHVB'ed for once, and won.
EC Doom/BH jump back fierce owned him!! Heh. Then - he switched to
Strider/Doom/Commando - and I lost in a VERY, VERY close
game. At one point - I had him beat w/10 seconds left on the clock - I
caught him with a inferno into Doom assist, but I
didn't finish it up - I did a Heart of Darkness by accident. I really wanted
to do another inferno into HOD. Oh well. I
lost, and fools in the arcade went crazy. Into the losers bracket I go...

My first match in the losers bracket was against Dan Thompson (SpiderDan).
Another grudge match for me. He picked Duc's
old team (OR/Cable/Cyke) and I picked my Doom/Strider/BH team. I remember
him getting owned by jump back fierce into BH,
and blocking his Cyke assist constantly. So for the most part, I didn't open
myself up to Cable AHVB (meaning, I won.) My
next few fights were kinda blurry - I remember fighting some random Cali
player who mirror matched me - and I also remember
playing some Storm player that gave Valle a hard time in the winners
bracket. Storm can't run from EC Doom/BH tho, so he got
peaced out. Somewhere after that, I remember playing Tom Cannon as well. I
don't remember muh about this either, except that
he picked Spiral and I won. The next important match for me was my
controversial fight against Eddie..

OK. I'll clear up all the rumors and such right now. Until the very last
second, I was going to give the fight to him. He
also asked me beforehand if I was going to throw the fight to him. I
silently said no and shook my head. He didn't try to
dispute me or anything, he understood. But he had no gameplan for me (he
spent all his time thinking about how to beat Duc/
Valle.) So we fight. He picks Doom/Cable/Cammy, I pick the team I've been
playing all night, Strider/Doom/BH. When I was
playing him, he wasn't giving me that hard of a time (like he usually
does -) maybe he wasn't playing like himself. He was
actually attacking. So I just sat there patiently, waiting for him to rush
me with Doom, and I launched him into a Photon
Array/Ouroboros DHC for 80%. He switched in Cable, and I think he only got 1
AHVB on me the whole match. I won that by
a decent margin. Second fight - Eddie was mumbling - "maybe I should try to
out Doom/BH/Strider him -" and I was hoping
he wouldn't pick that team, and I pretended like I didn't hear what he said.

He was stubborn that night, thinking that "oh, I can beat Arturo with this
team, I know I can" and picked Doom/Cable/Cammy
again. The 2nd game he was playing much smarter, rushing down my Doom with
Cammy assist. I couldn't get away and my
Doom kept getting hit. So I DHC'ed w/Strider, and Eddie was ready for it and
AHVB'ed x3 my Strider. Peace out. By the end
of the match, it was a 100% BH v. 3 damaged characters. And Eddie was
laughing at me on top of that. Usually, when he
does that to me, I get pissed and I just give up. So I let him kill my BH -
and everyone thought I threw the fight to him.
Tom/Tony Cannon bombed on me and said "Do you want to give up now?" I told
them I didn't give up the fight, and noone
believed me. We give up fights all the time. Oh well.

I picked the same team for the 3rd and final match, and I could tell that
Eddie was playing desperate. He was rushing me
down with Doom/Cammy yet again. I was ready for that this time, and I only
called BH and Photon Shocked at the right time.
He eventually had to bring in Cable. He started rushing me down again - then
I launched him into a DHC and took off 80%.
Vs Strider/Doom, Cable needs at least 60% health to fight that team. Because
he'll lose at least 40% from orb/doom traps
before he can start to move. He didn't have the necessary health to fight
me, so he died. As soon as his Cable died, I
won already. He got desperate and tried everything. It didn't work, and I
won. People were clapping, but I know they think
I backstabbed him.

I'll be honest about this. Truthfully, I wanted a shot at being the top
player in the nation at MVC2. Which is why I took
out Eddie . And he didn't try to stop me or anything. That's about all I can
say about it. Watch the documentary or something
when it comes out. I was interviewed for over a half-an hour about it by
Tamara and gang. I've talked about this way too many
times, and I don't feel like explaining my actions in detail again.
Anyway...

My next fight was against Image (this had to be my biggest grudge match so
far.) I've waited 2 years to play this fool in
a tourney, and ther was no better place to settle the score than at B4. OK.
He picked Magneto/Cable/Cyke and I picked
my usual team. I wrecked him the first two games. He wasn't used to my
runaway tactics at all, and he was dying to jump-back
fierce. :P It didn't help that he was messing up his Magneto hyper-grav
combos as well...then he started adapting. Like a
idiot, I didn't switch up my teams. I was thinking of picking
Sentinel/Doom/BH, but I didn't have enough confidence in my
Sentinel, which was a mistake. He eventually adapted and came back to win
the set 3-2. Oh well. Mad props go to Image. I'll
have to get my revenge on that fool at the MVC2 nationals :P

I was then interviewed for 30 minutes or so, so I don't know what happened
next. I heard Image got owned by Valle, and I
only came back to watch the last fights of Alex v. Duc. I saw Alex getting
owned by Duc, which was quite surprising. IMO,
he rushes down too much for his own good. He was getting hit by Cyclops
assist CONSTANTLY. My god. Block that shit, Alex!
:P

Woohoo! B4 was finally over. We then congratulated each other on jobs well
done, took some group photos and such. I swear,
I am NOT happy in that pic of me getting bombed on. I might look like I'm
smiling all the way down there, but I'm in pain.
Believe me. If you look closely in that pic, you'll see that Viscant is
about to fall on me. -_- Nuff said. Heh. Then we got
to see a very silly Tragic put on a show for us in the parking lot. Hehe.
Everyone busted a nut. Then Viscant got his last
fondles of the night (I heard he molested Eddie) then we went to Denny's
where we got rocknationed by the WAITRESS DOT COM!!!
Apoc/Tin/and the Denny's waitress were serving us our food, and I don't
remember much of what happened. I was too tired.
Sicdic/Eddie/Mike D were talking, Valle came over every now and then to feel
my furbish fro (TEAM COLOMBIA!!) and I was
sleeping through it all. Oh well. Then we said our goodbyes, and went back
to Sirlin's SUV to catch our flight in the morning...

The highlights of B4:

- Wrecking WC in MVC1. Heh. We dominated them, baybee!

- Getting my revenge on Viscant (and the rest of Team Cali) in MVC1/2 and
3s. Heh. No pass through FAB's
for him this year. (a la ECC4)

- Kicking it with all the fools on #capcom. Seriously, those guys are dope.
FlipMeign, Choi, Valle, Watson, omni, Javi, Rairu, tragic, the Cannons,
Seth, Sirlin, DreamTR, Hsien, SpiderDan,
Viscant, Apoc, MrWizard, Image, waterb0y, Crowbait, CaliSean and anyone
else I forgot. (don't bomb on me if I forgot you!)
Seriously, you guys are some of the dopest guys I've ever been with.

- And I'd also like to give a special thanks to Mike and Heiro (of Team
Oakland) for housing me pre-B4, and for just
being plain cool guys to kick it with. Seriously, you guys were dope. Now
you better get your asses to SHGL so you can
get better for when we next meet :) Oak Tree!! Team Perfect Zero! :P

- Getting to hear Apoc rap. Hehe! I didn't know that he was so dope at
freestyling....and it was funny how he had to force
himself to stop swearing because he was being recorded. I hope that ends
up in that documentary, that freestyle was too
dope.

- The Jab Strong Fierce productions crew. I think they did a great job of
capturing the SF community at it's best. Also,
a special thanks to Scott, who talked to me a lot during B4 and constantly
asked for my input on matches. I think he
got over an hour of footage on me....too bad that's not all heading into
the documentary :)

The low-lights of B4:

- Getting molested by Viscant. Seriously. All of the jailbait got fondled by
Viscant at B4. Floe, Tokenboy, and myself. We
were mad jailbait. Like, when I'm playing Viscant in MVC2, suddenly his
hands will start to wander. LOL. I'm turning 18
in a month tho, so I think my appeal will soon fade. ^_^

- EC's poor performance at B4. Seriously, this was the worst performance to
come out of EC in a long time. Henry Cen didn't
place in A3 (that's partly his own fault, since he came late,) but we
didn't do so well in the other games. I got 9th at
A3/3s. Henry lost to Mike D (upset) at 3s. Eddie only ended up getting top
4 in 3s. EC didn't break top 4 in MVC2. Oh well.
This IS a WC tourney after all, and of course the comp is going to be MUCH
harder than any other EC tourney. Until next
year, I guess..

- Seth NOT rapping on the mic. Tom/Tony Cannon said Seth was supposed to do
a freestyle rap. Damn. I WANTED TO HEAR SETH
FLOW WITH THE MIC! Dammit, I was looking forward to some white boy
rap...too bad Rob Ingrim wasn't around (CaliSean) to
do some dope white boy rap, after all, he is a Emimem lookalike :P

What, you actually read this far, and you're not bored yet? If so, I commend
you for not falling asleep. Heh. Thanks for
reading!

Arturo "Sabin" Sanchez
ai...@altavista.net
ICQ: 553999
Web: http://204.30.23.21/ (Perfect Zero Emergency MP3 Server)

[Stilt Man]

In article <8lhe57$79n$1...@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>,

Arturo Sanchez <ai...@columbia.edu> wrote:
>Bleh. My second
>match (which Apoc was so generous to get on the mic and announce my match
>with a dope freestyle rap ^_^) was against Jackson
>from Portland. As I understand it, this is someone that Stilt Man plays
>with, frequently. I let him pick first, and as soon
>as I saw him pick a top tier team (Doom/Cable/BH) I knew I had to stop
>messing around...so I picked Doom/Strider/BH. First
>game I made mincemeat of him - apparently, in their arcade, he's had no
>experience against the Strider/Doom trap. He had
>problems blocking my crossup teleports, so I used that to my advantage and
>rushed that fool down.

There are people who used it prior to B4, although I don't know if I'd say
it's a regular occurence or that they're likely the best people in the country
at it.

>Game 2 - He
>obviously caught on to the way I was calling my helpers. He would AHVB
>before my helper even came out, and then one second
>later, the helper would come in accordingly, to get hit. Yikes. I was being
>too predictable. What really got me scared was
>when I called a eagle w/ Strider to see what he would do, and he AHVB'ed it.
>Oops. I knew that I shouldn't be messing around
>- but by then, I only had BH left, and there was no way I was coming back.

I have to say... I'm laughing reading this, front to back. I definitely can
tell we're talking about the same guy here. I've played a lot of people at
these fighting games in a lot of places, and I can't think of more than maybe
one or two guys I've ever played who I'd say has a better combination of
brains and reaction time than Jackson. You give him most anything on a
horizontal level with a recovery time, you'll get BFG'ed. You do much of
anything that he picks up on as predictable, he'll BFG it. And sometimes --
I suspect he's baiting people when he does this -- it'll seem like he's going
into a pattern on you, knowing that there's only so many ways you're going
to break the pattern, and then he'll BFG a helper on you just to make sure
you realize he's still awake. The guy is just uncanny sometimes.

Hell, one time just before B4 he got so far ahead of me in one game that,
with about fifteen seconds left, he just flat out stopped blocking and let
me whale on his characters. And he still won when the clock ran out because
he was so far ahead that with the one char I had left I couldn't possibly
do enough damage to even it back up. That was probably one of my least proud
moments in gaming, I must say... :/

>3rd game. Jackson's weakness is that he puts Cable first.

At risk of getting arrogant here, though, I should stand and take a bow here.
There's a bit of a story behind that.

Prior to his settling on Cable/BH/Doom for B4, Jackson was playing
Mag/Cable/Cyke as his overall best team, using Magneto to mess people up and
build meters for Cable. The trouble was, when he put this against my
Rogue/Doom/Cammy, he lost a lot of games doing that. My Rogue was _very_ good
at controlling that early matchup against his Magneto, and once I'd put
together a good lead, I'd hang back and let him do all the attacking, giving
him no chances to counter out Magneto for anyone. This left him forced to
either let Magneto die or let Cable or Cyke get hammered with a Rogue good
night DHC'ed into Doom shooting off a flare. Then, with Doom under no
pressure at all to win or lose the game because Rogue had already handed him
a half or full lifebar's worth of lead, I could just mail it in from there.

The only thing Jackson ever found that could keep me from doing this to him
was to start Cable ahead of Magneto, force me to bring Doom out earlier, and
put the pressure on Doom to beat his Cable early. Then he just started
heading up into the air with me enough times that I couldn't dictate the
altitude on him any more, and from there his main adjustment was to not
let me rush his Cable down and open up the possibility that Rogue's power
drains were going to wreak havoc on him. When he eventually added BH to
start keeping my Doom down and a Doom of his own to shore up his chances at
winning the whittle contest with my Doom closer to the ground, he started
eating me up in the week or two prior to the tournament, hardway. Maybe I'm
taking too much credit for this, but as I was the guy at Lloyd who gave him
the most trouble... well, go figure.

So what wound up being a strength against me turned into a weakness against
you. I've been known to throw a jab at helpers to bait the AHVB though I've
never been quite so bold as to actually sac a helper of my own just to burn
off a meter.

>I baited him into
>wasting a level so I could rush him down. He
>took the bait accordingly, hitting my Blackheart. I whittled him down with
>Doom/BH for a bit, then I called in Strider.
>I remember him AHVB'ing my Strider accordingly, then fools went crazy. I
>don't remember too much as to what happened here,
>except that I killed his Cable (finally) and his BH came in. My Strider was
>in, and I called BH out, and he HOD'ed me and
>I got hit. I remember being down to 15% for Doom/Strider (BH died at this
>point) vs his 30% BH/Doom. My Doom was then
>whittled down to 5%, and I knew I had to get out. At this point, I seriously
>thought I was going to lose. I did a Photon
>Array into orbs, and then "rushed that shit down" for the win. Barely.

Good job. Coming from behind on Jackson is not easy to do.

>Afterwards, Jackson was walking around, and I talked to him for a bit. I
>then asked him if he's heard of "Stilt Man". He
>didn't, and I then described the characters he played and he seemed to
>remember.

I don't go by "Stilt Man" off line, so unless someone's run across me in here
and has drawn a connection they probably wouldn't know who you're talking about
until you brought up some guy who's nuts about Rogue. :)

>Stilt Man, if you're reading this (and you probably are) - Yes, Jackson is
>good - one of the better players I've ever played
>- I'll give you that much. But if you honestly do believe that Rogue is/was
>THAT good, and that the Strider/Doom trap is
>overhyped, then I guess you must be on crack or something..seriously. I
>don't know what to say. Jackson says that noone has
>ever done the Strider/Doom trap where you people play at, so that might
>explain it.

As said above, there are folks who did it even before B4 -- Jackson himself
threw it at me earlier that same week, and actually did pretty well against
me before I made an adjustment or three. His Strider isn't the best, though,
and even when he was doing well against me with it, my Rogue would control
his Strider early rather soundly and then I'd lose the match against BH.
Brian has a much better Strider (Jackson wasn't around much in the MvC1
days, and Brian played quite a bit of Strider back then) and has avidly
taken to the Strider/Doom tactics in the week since, and when I had BH in
back behind Rogue/Doom he was handling me quite well the other day. However,
when I swapped for Cammy in back (having come to the conclusion that, although
BH works better behind Rogue/Doom for Cable-based matchups, Cammy works _much_
better if the key matchups are occurring at close range) I was able to deal
with even Brian's Strider rather well.

>Rogue cannot escape the Strider/Doom trap, no matter what. If there was/is
>any chance of her airdashing away, BH stops her
>dead in her tracks. Cammy helps, but she won't help enough to stop Rogue
>from dying. I almost wish I could play you so I
>could show you the error of your ways, seriously. I'm not going to try to
>convince you any more, because this topic has
>been discussed to death with you.

Well, Brian's been doing this well enough that he's forced me to start
regressing back to Cammy from my BH experiments. However, although it _is_
true that Rogue can't escape the Strider/Doom trap altogether, there _are_
a lot of things she can do to weaken it significantly. Stall, stay off the
ground as long as you can, pushblock when you do get caught... yeah, you'll
get caught. But Rogue can make it _difficult_ -- stall, stay off the ground
as long as possible, pushblock, call in Cammy -- such that she doesn't take
a point-blank Doom _too_ often. She can afford to get caught, she just has
to make sure she doesn't get caught too often. One thing I'll do when I'm
up against Strider is I'll call Cammy on reflex to just about any sort of
teleport if Rogue isn't already blocking, whether Doom or the orbs are in
the way or not. I've also pulled off the occasional deal where I'll throw
Cammy at Strider when he teleports without the orbs and Doom's sitting there,
then I'll super jump back away while Strider's bouncing off the cannon spike
and catching Doom to the tune of a 30+% AC with Rogue. It doesn't take very
many hits for Rogue to hurt helpers quite a bit (jab/strong/launch/j/s/f does
~45% to Strider help).

Does she escape it altogether? No. But she can run enough interference that
she makes it tricky. It doesn't take very many hits with Cammy to keep it
close or better under those circumstances, and if she gets just one or two
clean shots at Doom while Cammy's in Strider's way, she can give a _very_
good accounting of herself in this matchup.

Just keep in mind... Jackson came within a stone's throw of beating you, and
I can contend with this guy, with Rogue on my teams. My guess, in the end,
is that I give a little bit too good an impression of her on here but that
you're probably still underestimating her a little. I probably give people
the idea that I win games with Rogue alone squashing entire teams or that
I'll put her in front against just about anyone but Cable, which (while true
against people that I just plain outclass) distracts a little from the fact
that I always pair Rogue off with Doom, and my Doom is about as good as you'll
find in the Portland area. Nevertheless, I do, in fact, win with Rogue/Doom
as my key pair. Even against "top tier" chars.

And now, I think you can probably at least grant that I don't get away with
this because everyone around me sucks.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
< We are Microsoft Borg '98. Lower your expectations and >
< surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
< Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
< technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
< will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >

[AK]

Stilt Man (stil...@user2.teleport.com) wrote:

: Just keep in mind... Jackson came within a stone's throw of beating you, and

: I can contend with this guy, with Rogue on my teams. My guess, in the end,
: is that I give a little bit too good an impression of her on here but that
: you're probably still underestimating her a little. I probably give people
: the idea that I win games with Rogue alone squashing entire teams or that
: I'll put her in front against just about anyone but Cable, which (while true
: against people that I just plain outclass) distracts a little from the fact
: that I always pair Rogue off with Doom, and my Doom is about as good as you'll
: find in the Portland area. Nevertheless, I do, in fact, win with Rogue/Doom
: as my key pair. Even against "top tier" chars.

: And now, I think you can probably at least grant that I don't get away with
: this because everyone around me sucks.

As everyone knows, A beats B, B beats C, thus A beats C logic never works.

I'm about as interested in seeing your hyped Rogue as much as everyone
else. You should make an effort to attend a national tourney of some
sort and see how you fair. Rogue fairing well with Cammy against
Strider/Doom is just as good as any joe-shmoe character (tier 3 or
lower) fairing well with Cammy. Absolutely nothing unique she has against
Strider/Doom, thus you see where everyone is coming from.

Anyway, I'm not sure when the national is, but you sure can come to the
CTF tourney end of august so I can see it myself. Or at least go to an
SHGL tourney, that's a bit closer to Portland.

--
AK

[Stilt Man]

In article <8li4u4$54h$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
AK <ak...@red.seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Stilt Man (stil...@user2.teleport.com) wrote:
>: Nevertheless, I do, in fact, win with Rogue/Doom

>: as my key pair. Even against "top tier" chars.

>: And now, I think you can probably at least grant that I don't get away with
>: this because everyone around me sucks.

>As everyone knows, A beats B, B beats C, thus A beats C logic never works.

That's true. OTOH, a couple of weeks ago someone commented to me that they'd
rather play Jackson than me because, even though both of us basically own the
guy, against Jackson the guy at least figures he'll manage to win one game in
eight, whereas I pretty much never give up fluke wins.

I don't know if _I'd_ rather play against Jackson than me, but... *shrugs*
At any rate (tm)... Jackson was willing to use the term "top 10" to describe
his performance at B4, Sanchez gave generally glowing remarks about the guy's
ability, and Jackson isn't _that_ far ahead of me or a couple of other guys
in Portland -- if at all. Three months ago, I would've told you that Jackson
was probably no better than third best in Portland. Now, I'm not sure I'm
prepared to say he's clearly the best player here even this soon after I
would've said he was _way_ ahead of me just before B4... I've made adjustments
to catch up again, and Brian has dug his old Strider out with some of the
stuff he saw at the tourney, so when the tourney at Lloyd comes out this
weekend, I would probably say that one of the three of us will be likely to
win, but I couldn't tell you which.

Whatever the situation here, I think Jackson has made the case at B4 that I'm
not surrounded by utter scrubs and morons here.

>I'm about as interested in seeing your hyped Rogue as much as everyone
>else. You should make an effort to attend a national tourney of some
>sort and see how you fair. Rogue fairing well with Cammy against
>Strider/Doom is just as good as any joe-shmoe character (tier 3 or
>lower) fairing well with Cammy. Absolutely nothing unique she has against
>Strider/Doom, thus you see where everyone is coming from.

Well.... yes and no. I'd far rather have Rogue against Strider than, say,
Hulk against Strider. Either one of them is obviously in a lot better shape
with a cannon spike behind them than a sonic boom, but there's a lot of
other things Rogue brings to the table that Hulk doesn't. She can super
jump out of a Doom/teleport strike and quickly bring down a hit on Doom to
hurt him enough that the other guy will be leery of bringing him in, she
can quickly (and relatively SAFELY) strike back at Strider, she can DHC
really easily out of most anything she throws, she can build meter pretty
quickly if she sets her mind to it (she can sj. fierce about as fast as
Cyke can sj. rh), and most anything she hits solidly on the ground can be
chained into a super. Plus, she's just plain a lot more mobile than Hulk,
so she gets caught in the traps a lot less, thus (although she can't escape
them altogether, granted) she can weaken them enough that she can keep
herself in the running.

Yes, Cammy helps tremendously, but Rogue is far more capable of capitalizing
on the openings Cammy gives her, and on helping Cammy _create_ those openings,
than a lot of people. The list of physical attackers that can do it better
isn't terribly long. And yes, it's true that Rogue _without_ Cammy probably
wouldn't cut it, but then, Strider without Doom would do far worse against
Rogue _with_ Cammy than the reverse. If Rogue's gearing up for a
tooth-and-nail fistfight, it's probably as fair to assume she'll usually
want to bring a pair of British legs with her as it is to assume Strider's
going to be packing Latverian gravel. ;)

>Anyway, I'm not sure when the national is, but you sure can come to the
>CTF tourney end of august so I can see it myself. Or at least go to an

>SHGL tourney, that's a bit closer to Portland.

Well, my problem with this is part motivation and part disposable income.
If I have a convenient way to run across someone (say, driving up to
Seattle) then I'd do that. But if it's much beyond half quick driving
distance, then I don't usually care to go much out of my way, both because
of cost and because, despite the attitude I often show in here, I really
_don't_ feel like I have anything much to prove outside the Portland area.
I play the game primarily to outlet my frustrations into things that aren't
going to hurt anybody for real. (Much like one might accuse a certain
"grumpy old man" from southern Illinois of using this newsgroup... ;) I
am indeed a rather competitive person and try to do the best I can and tend
to seek out the best competition that I can conveniently find... but
ultimately, my devotion to the game is not enough that I'm really willing
to rearrange the rest of my life around it, certainly not to the extent
that a number of folks around these circles have done.

That said, word has it that I might meet a friend who's headed Cali-ward
in the next couple of weeks, so if the Cali players want the chance to
spank me down they just get it. :)

[seth james killian]

stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) writes:

>There are people who used it prior to B4, although I don't know if I'd say
>it's a regular occurence or that they're likely the best people in the country
>at it.

Oh- you "don't know" if it's a "regular occurence", and you're
similarly generous in allowing that those flailing away *might* not be
the best in the country at it? This from a man who has *obviously* never
even seen the issue under discussion? God, you are a shocking jackass.

>I have to say... I'm laughing reading this, front to back. I definitely can
>tell we're talking about the same guy here.

Yeah, here's another tip that you're talking about the same guy:
he has the same fucking name, and was at the same tournament. But I'm
glad you were able to piece it together from circumstantial evidence
about how his Cable hits a lot of stuff with AHVBs, which, I must say,
is quite distinctive.

I've played a lot of people at
>these fighting games in a lot of places, and I can't think of more than maybe
>one or two guys I've ever played who I'd say has a better combination of
>brains and reaction time than Jackson.

Again, you *haven't* played a lot of people in a lot of places,
or at least not a lot of people who are any damn good. The greater
southern Oregon area does not qualify as "a lot of places". Virtually
all of the regular posters here outstrip you badly in this regard, as
does *anyone* who's been to a real tournament.
And irrespective of how good Jackson is (or isn't), his
ability to hit a lot of shit with AHVBs doesn't reveal *anything*
about brains, or reaction. That's Cable's *entire game*. All he
does is look for you to do something, and AHVB it. It becomes
much easier to "react" to something when that's all you're looking
for. Similarly, there's virtually never a penalty for doing it,
whether it hits or not. Must be evidence for how smart he is!
The difference between completely unexceptional and championship
level Cable play is extremely small, and consists mostly in
your ability to do a tiger knee motion quickly and consistently,
and how extensive your catalog of "things I can AHVB to punish"
catalog is.

You give him most anything on a
>horizontal level with a recovery time, you'll get BFG'ed.

Yeah- welcome to "competent Cable playing 101".

You do much of
>anything that he picks up on as predictable, he'll BFG it. And sometimes --
>I suspect he's baiting people when he does this -- it'll seem like he's going
>into a pattern on you, knowing that there's only so many ways you're going
>to break the pattern, and then he'll BFG a helper on you just to make sure
>you realize he's still awake. The guy is just uncanny sometimes.

Wow. Truly amazing. Are you forgetting that many of us have
actually *seen* this guy play, and that your waxing poetic over his
unbelievable skills rings a little false after having seen the real
thing?

>Hell, one time just before B4 he got so far ahead of me in one game that,
>with about fifteen seconds left, he just flat out stopped blocking and let
>me whale on his characters. And he still won when the clock ran out because
>he was so far ahead that with the one char I had left I couldn't possibly
>do enough damage to even it back up. That was probably one of my least proud
>moments in gaming, I must say... :/

Dude, this is an extremely common phenomenon in MVC2 games. It's
difficult to deal out massive damage without supers in a short amount of
time. It's a fun mini-game to calculate how early you can let go without
getting killed by the opponent unloading all their supers on you (as
infinites rarely do a ton of damage quickly). Once again, you reveal
yourself as a scrub for even being amazed by this.

>>3rd game. Jackson's weakness is that he puts Cable first.

>At risk of getting arrogant here, though, I should stand and take a bow here.
>There's a bit of a story behind that.

(shockingly stupid story deteled)

Umm, besides providing essentially zero evidence for the fact
that you "forced" him to put Cable first (and let's not forget- by your
own admission, this guy kicks your ass up and down the block), even if
we accept your retarded "claim to fame", this only makes your hero
look bad. That he's too dumb to realize starting with Cable vs
good players (or some teams) is a bad move, because he can only AHVB
*once*, then it's time for him to get helpered and rushed down. It's
a serious liability, and one someone with the "second or thirdmost"
brains of anyone you've ever met should be able to see pretty
clearly.

>eating me up in the week or two prior to the tournament, hardway. Maybe I'm
>taking too much credit for this, but as I was the guy at Lloyd who gave him
>the most trouble... well, go figure.

Well go figure what? You were the guy at Nowheresville Arcade
that "gave him the most trouble"- another one of your maddeningly vague
locutions for "lost least humiliatingly"? You're seriously such a
jackass that you turn the story of your getting beatdown endlessly
into an opportunity to brag (and brag about how, just maybe, by
playing you, Jackson has actually become a *worse* player). Wow.

>So what wound up being a strength against me turned into a weakness against
>you. I've been known to throw a jab at helpers to bait the AHVB though I've
>never been quite so bold as to actually sac a helper of my own just to burn
>off a meter.

Can you actually say anything about the game that does *not* reveal
you as the superscrub longtime readers know you to be? Letting a helper
like BH eat (one) AHVB to burn off Cable meter is hardly a "bold" or
amazing tactic- it's called you strip Cable's only real threat/offense
by trading it for 50% of entirely healable damage. And when you know
a helper like BH isn't coming out until everyone else is dead, that's
usually a good trade. S-C-R-U-B.

>Good job. Coming from behind on Jackson is not easy to do.

High praise indeed, coming from the wise StiltMan. Oh wait,
you're the no-experience scrub who happens to get beatdown by this guy
all the time. Coming from behind on *anyone* in MVC2 is pretty fucking
hard, as evidenced by the extreme turtling busted out (at least
periodically) by everyone there. The fact that someone did come
back in a serious way near the end of the match just makes him
again look bad.

>>Afterwards, Jackson was walking around, and I talked to him for a bit. I
>>then asked him if he's heard of "Stilt Man". He
>>didn't, and I then described the characters he played and he seemed to
>>remember.

>I don't go by "Stilt Man" off line, so unless someone's run across me in here
>and has drawn a connection they probably wouldn't know who you're talking about
>until you brought up some guy who's nuts about Rogue. :)

Or just some random, thinks-he's-good-despite all available evidence
jive-talking scrub. I think Arturo was being extremely kind in describing
how you were discussed.

>As said above, there are folks who did it even before B4 -- Jackson himself
>threw it at me earlier that same week, and actually did pretty well against
>me before I made an adjustment or three.

There really *is* no adjustment. You block. You're asking us
to believe that you, after getting a half-assed, watered down version
from the mall scrubs with internet access, have "made some adjustments",
such that it's not a real factor? While the rest of the countries
top players, who developed it, and used it against each other *routinely*,
still haven't figured out such Stilt-brand quantum leaps like "pushblock
it!", or "jump away!". Admit that you haven't seen it, you lying pile
of puke. How are you supposed to have seen it, if Jackson hadn't? Or
was your brainy, reaction-king unable to match your deft adjustments
in his own style?

>>Rogue cannot escape the Strider/Doom trap, no matter what. If there was/is
>>any chance of her airdashing away, BH stops her
>>dead in her tracks. Cammy helps, but she won't help enough to stop Rogue
>>from dying. I almost wish I could play you so I
>>could show you the error of your ways, seriously. I'm not going to try to
>>convince you any more, because this topic has
>>been discussed to death with you.

>Well, Brian's been doing this well enough that he's forced me to start
>regressing back to Cammy from my BH experiments. However, although it _is_
>true that Rogue can't escape the Strider/Doom trap altogether, there _are_
>a lot of things she can do to weaken it significantly. Stall, stay off the
>ground as long as you can, pushblock when you do get caught... yeah, you'll
>get caught. But Rogue can make it _difficult_ -- stall, stay off the ground
>as long as possible, pushblock, call in Cammy -- such that she doesn't take
>a point-blank Doom _too_ often. She can afford to get caught, she just has
>to make sure she doesn't get caught too often. One thing I'll do when I'm
>up against Strider is I'll call Cammy on reflex to just about any sort of
>teleport if Rogue isn't already blocking, whether Doom or the orbs are in
>the way or not. I've also pulled off the occasional deal where I'll throw
>Cammy at Strider when he teleports without the orbs and Doom's sitting there,
>then I'll super jump back away while Strider's bouncing off the cannon spike
>and catching Doom to the tune of a 30+% AC with Rogue. It doesn't take very
>many hits for Rogue to hurt helpers quite a bit (jab/strong/launch/j/s/f does
>~45% to Strider help).

I let this stand as just more evidence of what a complete jackass
you are. This doesn't work. None of it works. And a 45% damage aircombo
to a helper is *nothing*, and presumes you don't get knocked out of your
chain by the reactivated point.

>Does she escape it altogether? No. But she can run enough interference that
>she makes it tricky. It doesn't take very many hits with Cammy to keep it
>close or better under those circumstances, and if she gets just one or two
>clean shots at Doom while Cammy's in Strider's way, she can give a _very_
>good accounting of herself in this matchup.

This is just more empty, vague bullshit, in which you've said
nothing that isn't just sort of false. It would be more false the less
vague you were, but that's for you to handle. Rogue has *no* distinctive
tactics that help her escape the Strider/Doom trap, nor have you
suggested anything that helps anyone really "weaken" it, or helpfully
"run interference" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean).

>Just keep in mind... Jackson came within a stone's throw of beating you, and
>I can contend with this guy, with Rogue on my teams.

Arturo was fooling around, and *still* won. And beating someone
in a single MVC2 match doesn't mean a hell of a lot- things happen like
that, especially when you're up against the most broken character in the
game- Cable, who can kill you quite easily. Any scrub with an average
Cable and the ability to turtle a little stands a chance at the best
player in the country. It's a flaw in MVC2. But it's beside the point
whether Jackson's any good- he didn't win, and you get your ass handed
to you by him every week. The old "I beat Jim, and Jim beat Joe, so I
can beat Joe", apart from being completely bogus doesn't apply to you
*at all*. Your hero got beat down, and, in turn, your hero beats the
hell out of you. How you can take any of this as some point of pride
boggles the mind.

>And now, I think you can probably at least grant that I don't get away with
>this because everyone around me sucks.

??? What are you "getting away with"? Beating everyone *except*
the guy who doesn't suck? You play Rogue, and he thrashes you. Because
you "give him the hardest time" (re: lose) is meaningless, unless what
you think you're getting away with is the thrill of putting another
quarter in the machine. You are a terrible scrub. Please stop
attempting to ride the wave of embarrassment generated by the first
player you know to have played anyone worth playing (in anything),
and wait until your sad reverse boner dies down before posting
again. Thank you.

Seth Killian

[Stilt Man]

In article <BP2f5.3511$Il3....@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,

seth james killian <skil...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) writes:
>>There are people who used it prior to B4, although I don't know if I'd say
>>it's a regular occurence or that they're likely the best people in the country
>>at it.

> Oh- you "don't know" if it's a "regular occurence", and you're
>similarly generous in allowing that those flailing away *might* not be
>the best in the country at it? This from a man who has *obviously* never
>even seen the issue under discussion? God, you are a shocking jackass.

My goodness, Seth... can't you tell that guy to buy his _own_ lunch instead
of stealing your money for it all the time? Or were you planning on going
to the Rocket Burger instead of just McDonald's today and so you lost more
money than usual? :)

>>I have to say... I'm laughing reading this, front to back. I definitely can
>>tell we're talking about the same guy here.

> Yeah, here's another tip that you're talking about the same guy:
>he has the same fucking name, and was at the same tournament. But I'm
>glad you were able to piece it together from circumstantial evidence
>about how his Cable hits a lot of stuff with AHVBs, which, I must say,
>is quite distinctive.

Uh huh. Sanchez reports that Jackson was reading him so badly that he'd
throw out AHVB's to bake helpers, BEFORE the helpers actually appeared on
the screen, and comments that what really had him scared was when he just
throws an eagle from Strider and Jackson roasted him for it.

How... intellectually honest of you to conveniently snip all of that from
Sanchez and then just flame me for it when I observe with amusement that
this is the sort of thing that I've had to deal with from the guy, too.

Tell me, you ever gotten that kind of reaction from a guy at Sanchez's level
in a major tournament?

>> I've played a lot of people at
>>these fighting games in a lot of places, and I can't think of more than maybe
>>one or two guys I've ever played who I'd say has a better combination of
>>brains and reaction time than Jackson.

> Again, you *haven't* played a lot of people in a lot of places,
>or at least not a lot of people who are any damn good. The greater
>southern Oregon area does not qualify as "a lot of places".

Portland... two major unis in Oregon... Vancouver... Indianapolis (although
you're right about that one, no one was much good there, much as Mr. Daniels
warned me)... Seattle (where Tom Cannon was until recently)... okay, maybe
not as widely travelled as some folks here, but still more than your average
mall scrub.

Hmmmm. Not a lot who are any damn good? Well, Ray Teruja, Jr. got a #9
at 3s at B4, I've played him at SF2:HF (where he beat me more often than not)
and MvC2 (where I beat him a _lot_ more often than not). Jackson came
close enough to beating one of the best two players on the east coast at
MvC2 that Mr. Sanchez was willing to describe him as, quote, "one of the
better players I've ever played against", unquote... which, I dare say, is
a lot more glowing of a description than I've ever seen anyone make of you
in that particular game. In fact, I don't have the slightest doubt that if
you and I were to meet over an MvC2 game in a dark arcade somewhere, I'd hand
you your ass. Of course, that's easy for me to say... your name hasn't been
seen on a top 10 list on anything newer than ST, so what can I say?

> And irrespective of how good Jackson is (or isn't), his
>ability to hit a lot of shit with AHVBs doesn't reveal *anything*
>about brains, or reaction.

Tell me, Seth... have you ever played Jackson at this thing? I've got that
one on you.

>The difference between completely unexceptional and championship
>level Cable play is extremely small, and consists mostly in
>your ability to do a tiger knee motion quickly and consistently,
>and how extensive your catalog of "things I can AHVB to punish"
>catalog is.

Ummmm... no. Brian's Cable is considerably behind Jackson's. It's not
because he doesn't realize how many things he can AHVB, it's because he
doesn't realize a lot of other things about timing and positioning in
Cable's game and just plain isn't as comfortable at the controls with
Cable. There's quite a few things about playing Cable that are less
simple than your catalog of "things I can AHVB to punish".

>> You do much of
>>anything that he picks up on as predictable, he'll BFG it. And sometimes --
>>I suspect he's baiting people when he does this -- it'll seem like he's going
>>into a pattern on you, knowing that there's only so many ways you're going
>>to break the pattern, and then he'll BFG a helper on you just to make sure
>>you realize he's still awake. The guy is just uncanny sometimes.

> Wow. Truly amazing. Are you forgetting that many of us have
>actually *seen* this guy play, and that your waxing poetic over his
>unbelievable skills rings a little false after having seen the real
>thing?

Yeah. And he came within a late Strider/Doom trap of sending one of the best
two players on the east coast into the losers' bracket. How pathetic this
guy must be.

Tell me, Seth, you ever done that in an MvC2 tournament? Has anyone you've
played on a regular basis at the game ever done that? No? Does anyone in
the state of Illinois ever even get mentioned in that sort of light? Hell,
does anyone in the state of Illinois even know how to play the game? Hell,
could you even point out which char in the chart Cable _is_, much less play
him on Jackson's level? (Hint... he's one of about six or seven players with
a metal arm... no, not the one with the cape, that's that Doom guy...)

>>Hell, one time just before B4 he got so far ahead of me in one game that,
>>with about fifteen seconds left, he just flat out stopped blocking and let
>>me whale on his characters. And he still won when the clock ran out because
>>he was so far ahead that with the one char I had left I couldn't possibly
>>do enough damage to even it back up. That was probably one of my least proud
>>moments in gaming, I must say... :/

> Dude, this is an extremely common phenomenon in MVC2 games.

Not against me, it's not.

>>>3rd game. Jackson's weakness is that he puts Cable first.

>>At risk of getting arrogant here, though, I should stand and take a bow here.
>>There's a bit of a story behind that.

> (shockingly stupid story deteled)

> Umm, besides providing essentially zero evidence for the fact
>that you "forced" him to put Cable first (and let's not forget- by your
>own admission, this guy kicks your ass up and down the block),

Well, this is basically completely wrong.

The only period of time where Jackson pretty much completely messed me up
was in the brief period of time immediately before B4. He was playing the
game a great deal in order to prepare for the tournament, while I was in
Indianapolis programming digital lighting for the convention center and
had basically no one to play against other than a lot of people while I
was there except for some folks who really, really didn't know what they
were doing. (I think one guy out there even had the guts to rechallenge
me after he got smacked down.) I got rusty while he was drilling for the
big one, and when I got back from Indiana, it showed.

Up until about three months ago, I don't think I could say that Jackson was
better than third best in Portland. Brian and I were the main people
contending for top dog before that, as he went through Iceman and Cable
evolutions and I went through Rogue/Cammy/xxxx evolutions, eventually
settling on Doom as my third char. Jackson would play against folks and
threw me for a loop the first time I played against him, but for a while
there I was beating him about 60% of the time. Then when he started into
OR/Cable/Cyke and Magneto/Cable/Cyke, it dropped to 50% or so, then to
about 45%, where it stayed until I left for Indiana. Jackson was probably
the best overall player at that point; Brian was slipping off a bit and
wasn't seen much in the arcade. When I got back from Indiana, Jackson
was basically owning the machine about as long as he wanted, although he
wasn't doing so invincibly well that he could get away with handing his
first char off to Brian and then come back on me after Brian frittered the
early-going away. I couldn't get any real practice time in because Jackson
was on the machine for so many of the popular time periods at the place
that about the only person I could play against was him, so I wasn't able
to get back into any real rhythm until after he was gone to B4.

Since then, it's been a pretty even keel. And, as I said in my other post,
I'd be hard put to tell you who'll win the tournament this coming weekend
between Jackson, Brian, and me. Playing against them on Saturday afternoon,
I was going about half-and-half with both of them. Brian's a much better
Strider player (and, as before, I chalk this up to his MvC1 experience) but
Jackson's a much better Cable player. A lot's going to depend on seeding,
whether either of them decides not to enter rather than spending money
possibly running into each other, and whether either of them gets fluked out
in the early rounds. (I've noticed that both of them seem to get caught in
fluke losses more easily than I do. Probably because I'm in the arcade more
than they are so I see more different things than they do.) And, basically
throughout all of this, Brian, Jackson, and another guy named Steven have
pretty much been the only guys living in the Portland area who have, over
the life of the game at Lloyd, made me spend any significant fraction of
the amount of money that I make them.

But, of course, what do I know? I'm only _there_, how could I ever know
what's going on in my own freaking arcade better than some omniscient guy
in southern Illinois?

(No, that guy who chants "Destroy!" isn't Cable either... you remember him,
you used to play him in COTA, right?)

>That he's too dumb to realize starting with Cable vs
>good players (or some teams) is a bad move, because he can only AHVB
>*once*, then it's time for him to get helpered and rushed down.

Yes, but Jackson's generally pretty good against most teams about keeping
this from happening, thus this didn't become a terrible liability. After
all, Sanchez didn't get a real chance to exploit this on him until the third
game. Notice that part in the second game where Sanchez comments that
Jackson _repeatedly_ AHVB'ed his helpers before they came out? Note your
English plurals, Seth... Jackson got off more than one of those, and Cable
was described as killed of "finally".

(You're getting warm, that Russian dude also has segmented metal arms...)

>>eating me up in the week or two prior to the tournament, hardway. Maybe I'm
>>taking too much credit for this, but as I was the guy at Lloyd who gave him
>>the most trouble... well, go figure.

> Well go figure what? You were the guy at Nowheresville Arcade
>that "gave him the most trouble"- another one of your maddeningly vague
>locutions for "lost least humiliatingly"?

Uh, no. As in, I defeated him quite a few times when he didn't put Cable up
front. Which may have been a major reason why he _started_ putting Cable up
front. Maybe Sanchez was able to exploit doing one thing, but I exploited it
when he did the other.

(Yes, I know that guy with the cape also has glowing eyes, but that's _still_
not Cable!)

>>So what wound up being a strength against me turned into a weakness against
>>you. I've been known to throw a jab at helpers to bait the AHVB though I've
>>never been quite so bold as to actually sac a helper of my own just to burn
>>off a meter.

> Can you actually say anything about the game that does *not* reveal
>you as the superscrub longtime readers know you to be? Letting a helper
>like BH eat (one) AHVB to burn off Cable meter is hardly a "bold" or
>amazing tactic- it's called you strip Cable's only real threat/offense
>by trading it for 50% of entirely healable damage.

Funny, I thought that block damage was also a pretty big part of Cable's
threat/offense, especially when he's got the likes of BH on the team to pin
you down, throws grenades over your head to discourage you from jumping, and
calls Doom's rocks if you stay on the ground too long.

(No, the one with the dinner plate isn't Cable, either... yes, I know he's
got metal arms, but he's too _small_. No, not the guy in yellow, those are
metal _claws_, not arms...)

>>>Afterwards, Jackson was walking around, and I talked to him for a bit. I
>>>then asked him if he's heard of "Stilt Man". He
>>>didn't, and I then described the characters he played and he seemed to
>>>remember.

>>I don't go by "Stilt Man" off line, so unless someone's run across me in here
>>and has drawn a connection they probably wouldn't know who you're talking about
>>until you brought up some guy who's nuts about Rogue. :)

> Or just some random, thinks-he's-good-despite all available evidence
>jive-talking scrub. I think Arturo was being extremely kind in describing
>how you were discussed.

Somehow, I doubt it.

>>As said above, there are folks who did it even before B4 -- Jackson himself
>>threw it at me earlier that same week, and actually did pretty well against
>>me before I made an adjustment or three.

> There really *is* no adjustment. You block. You're asking us
>to believe that you, after getting a half-assed, watered down version
>from the mall scrubs with internet access, have "made some adjustments",
>such that it's not a real factor? While the rest of the countries
>top players, who developed it, and used it against each other *routinely*,
>still haven't figured out such Stilt-brand quantum leaps like "pushblock
>it!", or "jump away!". Admit that you haven't seen it, you lying pile
>of puke. How are you supposed to have seen it, if Jackson hadn't?

Well... I can think of a number of ways.

1. Maybe that wasn't really Jackson that I ran into doing it to me, and
someone from California just snuck up to the arcade, managed to make themselves
look just like him, and went and picked those chars just knowing that I'd
show up and find him owning everybody else doing it.

2. Maybe that wasn't really Jackson again the next night trying it again,
and then when I started playing a bit less aggressive and letting him walk
into the cannon spikes, it wasn't really him who dropped the idea in favor
of sticking with Cable/BH/Doom for the rest of the week.

3. Maybe on the occasions that I ran into it from other people, Jackson
just... wasn't there. I do go in there a bit more often than he does, and
as a result of that I run into a few more things than he does -- which,
although his lifetime win percentage against me is probably slightly above
50% (although certainly not over 60%), leaves him a little bit more vulnerable
to taking an upset loss than I typically am. Just this last weekend he tried
a team out against me, got destroyed, tried it again, managed to exploit a
screwup for roasting a char with a triple-super, knocked me off the machine
that time... and then got beaten immediately after by someone who hasn't
been able to give me a serious run for my money since before MvC2 even came
out.

On that note, the answer is, "When I ran into it prior to B4, it was either
Jackson himself doing it, or Jackson was not present when it was being done."

But then again, I'm only there, what do I know about what shows up at the
arcade compared to some guy in Illinois?

(Maybe you need another hint... he carries a weapon... no, not the guy with
the katana blade, too...)

>>Does she escape it altogether? No. But she can run enough interference that
>>she makes it tricky. It doesn't take very many hits with Cammy to keep it
>>close or better under those circumstances, and if she gets just one or two
>>clean shots at Doom while Cammy's in Strider's way, she can give a _very_
>>good accounting of herself in this matchup.

> This is just more empty, vague bullshit, in which you've said
>nothing that isn't just sort of false. It would be more false the less
>vague you were, but that's for you to handle. Rogue has *no* distinctive
>tactics that help her escape the Strider/Doom trap, nor have you
>suggested anything that helps anyone really "weaken" it, or helpfully
>"run interference" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean).

Yet for some reason I manage to beat people doing it. They'll probably get
better at doing it, but I'll probably get better at stopping it, too.

(Try a firearm, then... it's not the other guys with the knives, either...)

>>Just keep in mind... Jackson came within a stone's throw of beating you, and
>>I can contend with this guy, with Rogue on my teams.

> Arturo was fooling around, and *still* won.

That's not what I read when I saw the article. I seem to recall him saying
he stopped messing around the moment he saw Jackson pick out his team.

>And beating someone
>in a single MVC2 match doesn't mean a hell of a lot- things happen like
>that, especially when you're up against the most broken character in the
>game- Cable, who can kill you quite easily. Any scrub with an average
>Cable and the ability to turtle a little stands a chance at the best
>player in the country. It's a flaw in MVC2. But it's beside the point
>whether Jackson's any good- he didn't win, and you get your ass handed
>to you by him every week.

True, and false, in that order. And Sanchez seemed to think the guy was pretty
good.

(There you are... now hit the nice shiny buttons to pick him out... no, that's
the start button...)

>>And now, I think you can probably at least grant that I don't get away with
>>this because everyone around me sucks.

> ??? What are you "getting away with"? Beating everyone *except*
>the guy who doesn't suck? You play Rogue, and he thrashes you.

Seth, did you, like... forget how to read when you left UIUC? Or did you
hit your head really hard on a dashboard in Chicago traffic for the Midwest
tourney? Or did someone swap the sugar out for your fruit loops this morning?

I play Rogue. Jackson does _not_ thrash me. There was a very brief period
of time, now ended, where he was destroying me because he (a) had a lot of
practice against the best players in Portland in preparation for B4 while I
was essentially in exile in Indianapolis where they only even have two
machines, one of which was gradually disintegrating even as I played the
silly thing (I kid you not, buttons were breaking on both sides as I played
it, and the controller on the left wouldn't do any charge moves after about
ten minutes) and the other of which had a $5 minimum on buying what passed
for tokens there, neither of which had anyone who knew the game from Pit
Fighter playing it, and (b) he made a bunch of adjustments during that time
and got very good at them and threw me for enough of a loop that, in my
rusty state, it took me a little while to get back into a good enough rhythm
and get a balance back together to play against him again.

While he was gone at B4, I played myself back into shape and, since then,
I've been quite competitive with him. Prior to that time, I was still quite
competitive with him. At pretty much every time _other_ than that reorienting
after my business trip, neither he nor I had a noticeable win percentage over
50% on the other. I sure as hell don't think he expects that I'll be any sort
of pushover if he and I are in the tournament this weekend.

Heck... I might just pin this post of yours on the machine as my motivation
to kick him from here to December and back again.

(Whaddaya mean, what does "Projectile Assist" mean?! Geez, I give up... go
get another insurance policy to hold the machine for you...)

[Julien B Beasley]

Hey great report!!

I used to play at the Oak Tree back in high school (92-93). But the Oak
Tree burned down in 93! It's back up again!

There was a stabbing in the back of the Oak Tree in 93 over street
fighter. Throws are cheap...

Julien

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

[Julien B Beasley]

In article <BP2f5.3511$Il3....@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
skil...@students.uiuc.edu (seth james killian) wrote:

BWAAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAA

Oh my god... thank you for that... I was laughing so hard, everyone at
work thinks I'm on crack. I actually had to go to the bathroom halfway
through your post to calm down and splash some water on my face. But
then as I was walking out of the bathroom I started grinning
uncontrollably. This was a problem, as people look at you strangely
when you walk out of the bathroom with a red wet face and a huge grin.

We need more posts like this!

[Julien B Beasley]

In article <8lib1p$c5g$1...@user2.teleport.com>,
stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:

> >As everyone knows, A beats B, B beats C, thus A beats C logic never
works.

> That's true. OTOH, a couple of weeks ago someone commented to me
that they'd
> rather play Jackson than me because, even though both of us basically
own the
> guy, against Jackson the guy at least figures he'll manage to win one
game in
> eight, whereas I pretty much never give up fluke wins.

Do you realize you've just used the ABC logic again? Here you say that
you are more likely to trash this guy than Jackson. Are we to infer
from this that you're somehow better than him? That you can beat some
guy 8/8 as opposed to his 7/8 has NOTHING to do with your respective
play abilities.

> I don't know if _I'd_ rather play against Jackson than me, but...
*shrugs*
> At any rate (tm)... Jackson was willing to use the term "top 10" to
describe
> his performance at B4, Sanchez gave generally glowing remarks about
the guy's
> ability, and Jackson isn't _that_ far ahead of me or a couple of
other guys
> in Portland -- if at all.

Again, you use the same twisted ABC logic. Sanchez said Jackson doesn't
suck, and you say he beats you, and you hold this to mean that you
don't suck? Sorry, doesn't hold water.

> Whatever the situation here, I think Jackson has made the case at B4
that I'm
> not surrounded by utter scrubs and morons here.

The only thing I've concluded from reading that report was that Jackson
doesn't sucks. I fail to see anything that says you don't suck, however.

I
> am indeed a rather competitive person and try to do the best I can
and tend
> to seek out the best competition that I can conveniently find... but
> ultimately, my devotion to the game is not enough that I'm really
willing
> to rearrange the rest of my life around it, certainly not to the
extent
> that a number of folks around these circles have done.

If your competitive drive leads you to scour the 7-11's of Oregon
looking for the ultimate challenger, great. But if you can't even be
bothered to drive ONE STATE DOWN to play the best players in the US,
you're hopeless. You could have bought a roundtrip greyhound bus ticket
for under $100 and crashed with someone for free. It would have cost
you nothing to go except a weekend.
No, I think the reason you didn't go is that you wanted to protect
whatever image of yourself you think you have on this board.

> That said, word has it that I might meet a friend who's headed Cali-
ward
> in the next couple of weeks, so if the Cali players want the chance to
> spank me down they just get it. :)

And what, they'll have to drive out and meet you in your hotel to have
a chance to play the vaunted stiltman? Please. You'll play no one
because you don't have to guts to show up anywhere. After you beat an
eight year old in some remote Pasadena gas station, just please don't
go harping about you won a game with Rogue vs "California Competition"

Julien

[Spider-Dan]

Before I reply, I'd like to state that I played against Jackson (and
Brian too, I believe... someone else from Oregon, not Ray) on Saturday
night during B4 in their hotel room. While this does not count as
"serious competition," I can tell you that we were playing serious
characters, and I lost one, maybe two games, out of about 10.

In article <8lin5j$dlt$1...@user2.teleport.com>,

stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:
> In article <BP2f5.3511$Il3....@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> seth james killian <skil...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) writes:
> >>There are people who used it prior to B4, although I don't know if
I'd say
> >>it's a regular occurence or that they're likely the best people in
the country
> >>at it.
>
> > Oh- you "don't know" if it's a "regular occurence", and you're
> >similarly generous in allowing that those flailing away *might* not
be
> >the best in the country at it? This from a man who has *obviously*
never
> >even seen the issue under discussion? God, you are a shocking
jackass.
>
> My goodness, Seth... can't you tell that guy to buy his _own_ lunch
instead
> of stealing your money for it all the time? Or were you planning on
going
> to the Rocket Burger instead of just McDonald's today and so you lost
more
> money than usual? :)

What exactly has to be done to show that you know nothing about
a real Strider/Doom trap, short of everyone flying to Oregon to kill you
with it?

> >>I have to say... I'm laughing reading this, front to back. I
definitely can
> >>tell we're talking about the same guy here.
>
> > Yeah, here's another tip that you're talking about the same guy:
> >he has the same fucking name, and was at the same tournament. But
I'm
> >glad you were able to piece it together from circumstantial evidence
> >about how his Cable hits a lot of stuff with AHVBs, which, I must
say,
> >is quite distinctive.
>
> Uh huh. Sanchez reports that Jackson was reading him so badly that
he'd
> throw out AHVB's to bake helpers, BEFORE the helpers actually appeared
on
> the screen, and comments that what really had him scared was when he
just
> throws an eagle from Strider and Jackson roasted him for it.

1. Any Cable can throw out AHVBs at random if they think you might call
a helper. What's the penalty if they guess wrong? Nothing. As long as
that wasn't your last level, you're fine. A little block damage and 1
meter gone, for the chance to do 60% to a helper. It happens ALL the
time among even average Cable player.

2. If Strider (or basically anyone else) does *anything* from a
distance where Cable has clearance to AHVB (meaning, he is not being
pinned down by rocks, swords, or whatever) it is not some magical leap
of wonder to AHVB it. This is what Cable is about.

> How... intellectually honest of you to conveniently snip all of that
from
> Sanchez and then just flame me for it when I observe with amusement
that
> this is the sort of thing that I've had to deal with from the guy,
too.
>
> Tell me, you ever gotten that kind of reaction from a guy at Sanchez's
level
> in a major tournament?

Arturo does not play against (good) Cable players regularly as the
concentration of that is more towards California. I'm not saying that
he doesn't know what he's talking about, but I am saying that Jackson's
Cable was standard.

> > Again, you *haven't* played a lot of people in a lot of places,
> >or at least not a lot of people who are any damn good. The greater
> >southern Oregon area does not qualify as "a lot of places".
>
> Portland... two major unis in Oregon... Vancouver... Indianapolis
(although
> you're right about that one, no one was much good there, much as Mr.
Daniels
> warned me)... Seattle (where Tom Cannon was until recently)... okay,
maybe
> not as widely travelled as some folks here, but still more than your
average
> mall scrub.

None of those places have produced a player that placed in top 5 in any
major SF tournament, ever. And I believe Jackson got 13th at B4.

> > And irrespective of how good Jackson is (or isn't), his
> >ability to hit a lot of shit with AHVBs doesn't reveal *anything*
> >about brains, or reaction.
>
> Tell me, Seth... have you ever played Jackson at this thing? I've got
that
> one on you.

I have. He has a good Cable (in the sense that he knows what and what
not to do, in general) but definitely not an outstanding one. He is a
solid player, but he's in no danger of winning any tournaments.

> >The difference between completely unexceptional and championship
> >level Cable play is extremely small, and consists mostly in
> >your ability to do a tiger knee motion quickly and consistently,
> >and how extensive your catalog of "things I can AHVB to punish"
> >catalog is.
>
> Ummmm... no. Brian's Cable is considerably behind Jackson's. It's
not
> because he doesn't realize how many things he can AHVB, it's because
he
> doesn't realize a lot of other things about timing and positioning in
> Cable's game and just plain isn't as comfortable at the controls with
> Cable. There's quite a few things about playing Cable that are less
> simple than your catalog of "things I can AHVB to punish".

If Brian is the other gentleman who was with Jackson at B4 (not Ray), he
is not a Cable player, I'll leave it at that.

> >> You do much of
> >>anything that he picks up on as predictable, he'll BFG it. And
sometimes --
> >>I suspect he's baiting people when he does this -- it'll seem like
he's going
> >>into a pattern on you, knowing that there's only so many ways you're
going
> >>to break the pattern, and then he'll BFG a helper on you just to
make sure
> >>you realize he's still awake. The guy is just uncanny sometimes.
>
> > Wow. Truly amazing. Are you forgetting that many of us have
> >actually *seen* this guy play, and that your waxing poetic over his
> >unbelievable skills rings a little false after having seen the real
> >thing?
>
> Yeah. And he came within a late Strider/Doom trap of sending one of
the best
> two players on the east coast into the losers' bracket. How pathetic
this
> guy must be.

You seriously need to get over these "almost wins." Let me tell you
exactly how much almost beating someone in a 2 of 3 MVC2 match means.

Nothing.

> >>Hell, one time just before B4 he got so far ahead of me in one game
that,
> >>with about fifteen seconds left, he just flat out stopped blocking
and let
> >>me whale on his characters. And he still won when the clock ran out
because
> >>he was so far ahead that with the one char I had left I couldn't
possibly
> >>do enough damage to even it back up. That was probably one of my
least proud
> >>moments in gaming, I must say... :/
>
> > Dude, this is an extremely common phenomenon in MVC2 games.
>
> Not against me, it's not.

If you're playing vs Cable, and you don't get multiple AHVB'd somewhat
regularly, 1) you're WAY better than your competition and/or 2) your
competition sucks. Even in the tournament, there were walkaway games
pretty often, very late in the tourney.

> >That he's too dumb to realize starting with Cable vs
> >good players (or some teams) is a bad move, because he can only AHVB
> >*once*, then it's time for him to get helpered and rushed down.
>
> Yes, but Jackson's generally pretty good against most teams about
keeping
> this from happening, thus this didn't become a terrible liability.
After
> all, Sanchez didn't get a real chance to exploit this on him until the
third
> game. Notice that part in the second game where Sanchez comments that
> Jackson _repeatedly_ AHVB'ed his helpers before they came out? Note
your
> English plurals, Seth... Jackson got off more than one of those, and
Cable
> was described as killed of "finally".

Putting Cable first is almost unilaterally bad strategy. Don't bother
trying to sugar coat it.

> >>So what wound up being a strength against me turned into a weakness
against
> >>you. I've been known to throw a jab at helpers to bait the AHVB
though I've
> >>never been quite so bold as to actually sac a helper of my own just
to burn
> >>off a meter.
>
> > Can you actually say anything about the game that does *not*
reveal
> >you as the superscrub longtime readers know you to be? Letting a
helper
> >like BH eat (one) AHVB to burn off Cable meter is hardly a "bold" or
> >amazing tactic- it's called you strip Cable's only real
threat/offense
> >by trading it for 50% of entirely healable damage.
>
> Funny, I thought that block damage was also a pretty big part of
Cable's
> threat/offense, especially when he's got the likes of BH on the team
to pin
> you down, throws grenades over your head to discourage you from
jumping, and
> calls Doom's rocks if you stay on the ground too long.

Uhh, Cable without meter gets rushed the fuck down by almost all of the
top two tiers. This has been the case for quite a long time.

So, in other words, the version that he threw together in a couple of
days post-B4 dominated the other players who had never seen it before,
but after a short while, you (who had at least heard about it) were able
to defeat this expert Strider/Doom trap-tician. Right.

> 2. Maybe that wasn't really Jackson again the next night trying it
again,
> and then when I started playing a bit less aggressive and letting him
walk
> into the cannon spikes, it wasn't really him who dropped the idea in
favor
> of sticking with Cable/BH/Doom for the rest of the week.

Maybe he's not a Strider player, and he just can't manage to keep his
Strider alive long enough to make the trap work. Do you think?

> But then again, I'm only there, what do I know about what shows up at
the
> arcade compared to some guy in Illinois?

By the way, Seth has attended at least two major MVC2 tourneys. You
have attended all of zero (your continued claim to fame is that you
play with a guy who *may* have placed top 10). I'd be willing to wager
that he knows more about top level play than you do, by quite a bit.

> >>Does she escape it altogether? No. But she can run enough
interference that
> >>she makes it tricky. It doesn't take very many hits with Cammy to
keep it
> >>close or better under those circumstances, and if she gets just one
or two
> >>clean shots at Doom while Cammy's in Strider's way, she can give a
_very_
> >>good accounting of herself in this matchup.
>
> > This is just more empty, vague bullshit, in which you've said
> >nothing that isn't just sort of false. It would be more false the
less
> >vague you were, but that's for you to handle. Rogue has *no*
distinctive
> >tactics that help her escape the Strider/Doom trap, nor have you
> >suggested anything that helps anyone really "weaken" it, or helpfully
> >"run interference" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean).
>
> Yet for some reason I manage to beat people doing it. They'll
probably get
> better at doing it, but I'll probably get better at stopping it, too.

Which is why you see Strider/Doom traps being made obsolete at the very
highest level play of MVC2. Wait, no, you don't.

> >>And now, I think you can probably at least grant that I don't get
away with
> >>this because everyone around me sucks.
>
> > ??? What are you "getting away with"? Beating everyone
*except*
> >the guy who doesn't suck? You play Rogue, and he thrashes you.
>
> Seth, did you, like... forget how to read when you left UIUC? Or did
you
> hit your head really hard on a dashboard in Chicago traffic for the
Midwest
> tourney? Or did someone swap the sugar out for your fruit loops this
morning?
>
> I play Rogue.

Correction: you play Doom, Sentinel, A-Cammy, Cable.... and on those
teams, you also happen to have Rogue. As has been said multiple times,
Rogue makes no substantial or unique contribution to any worthwhile
team, that another character would not do better.

--
"If God is so good, why didn't he give you a jump shot?"
- Charles Barkley, to A.C. Green

Dan Thompson
[send e-mail to] edge [at] chipware [dot] net

[Stilt Man]

In article <8livr3$op4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Julien B Beasley <j...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <8lib1p$c5g$1...@user2.teleport.com>,

> stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:
>> >As everyone knows, A beats B, B beats C, thus A beats C logic never works.

>> That's true. OTOH, a couple of weeks ago someone commented to me that they'd
>> rather play Jackson than me because, even though both of us basically own the
>> guy, against Jackson the guy at least figures he'll manage to win one game in
>> eight, whereas I pretty much never give up fluke wins.

>Do you realize you've just used the ABC logic again? Here you say that

>you are more likely to trash this guy than Jackson.

And, by the same token, I also just said that just because Jackson beats me
_slightly_ more often than not, it doesn't necessarily mean that he'll beat
someone else more often than I will.

Which is, of course, the actual point I was attempting to make.

>Are we to infer from this that you're somehow better than him?

No. I've said myself that I don't consider myself better than him.

>>*shrugs*
>> At any rate (tm)... Jackson was willing to use the term "top 10" to describe
>> his performance at B4, Sanchez gave generally glowing remarks about the guy's
>> ability, and Jackson isn't _that_ far ahead of me or a couple of other guys
>> in Portland -- if at all.

>Again, you use the same twisted ABC logic. Sanchez said Jackson doesn't

>suck, and you say he beats you, and you hold this to mean that you
>don't suck? Sorry, doesn't hold water.

Aha! NOW I see what my problem is! I suck so bad that I can't even tell
how I'm doing against someone in my own arcade as well as somebody in Illinois
or Boston! Screw this "first hand knowledge" stuff, what was I thinking?
Who am I to tell guys two or three thousand miles away how I fare against
somebody in my own home town? Geez, what have I been smoking?

>>I am indeed a rather competitive person and try to do the best I can and tend
>> to seek out the best competition that I can conveniently find... but
>> ultimately, my devotion to the game is not enough that I'm really willing
>> to rearrange the rest of my life around it, certainly not to the extent
>> that a number of folks around these circles have done.

>If your competitive drive leads you to scour the 7-11's of Oregon

>looking for the ultimate challenger, great. But if you can't even be
>bothered to drive ONE STATE DOWN to play the best players in the US,
>you're hopeless.

Some people simply have different priorities than others. Mine, at the
moment, happens to be involving a number of different things that frankly
aren't your business right this instant. I've had some friends in Cali
for years that I've never gotten a real chance to see because my number
of opportunities outside the life of a full time job, wife, and kid simply
isn't that big. My income's enough to support an arcade habit on top of
that much. My income's not big enough to support all that plus a few
extra days in a hotel in Indiana that I convinced my boss to let me have
before a business trip one month (which I barely was able to afford just
that much) then going to California the very next month to play in a video
game tournament. My priorities are not arranged so much around the game
that the game alone will drag me down there, no.

>> That said, word has it that I might meet a friend who's headed Cali-ward
>> in the next couple of weeks, so if the Cali players want the chance to
>> spank me down they just get it. :)

>And what, they'll have to drive out and meet you in your hotel to have

>a chance to play the vaunted stiltman? Please. You'll play no one
>because you don't have to guts to show up anywhere.

Actually, I'm likely to fire an email in Spider-Dan's direction (if he doesn't
see this, that is) to find out when people who can actually find Cable on the
selection screen without a roadmap tend to show up at SVGL... _if_ it's not
too expensive to make the extra time for it amidst everything else I want to
do down there. I'll be meeting two friends down there (one in Sac-town, the
other in San Jose) who mean a bit more to me than the game, but if I can
scrape up the credit card room I just might make time for it.

[Fluffy]

In article <8lke2p$cfs$1...@user2.teleport.com>,

stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:
> In article <8livr3$op4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Julien B Beasley <j...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >In article <8lib1p$c5g$1...@user2.teleport.com>,
> > stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:

> Actually, I'm likely to fire an email in Spider-Dan's direction (if he
doesn't
> see this, that is) to find out when people who can actually find Cable
on the
> selection screen without a roadmap tend to show up at SVGL... _if_
it's not
> too expensive to make the extra time for it amidst everything else I
want to
> do down there. I'll be meeting two friends down there (one in
Sac-town, the
> other in San Jose) who mean a bit more to me than the game, but if I
can
> scrape up the credit card room I just might make time for it.
>

> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
> http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
> < We are Microsoft Borg '98. Lower your expectations and >
> < surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
> < Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
> < technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
> < will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >

Tuesday nights are always good, but if you can show up on Friday or
Saturday night, that would be better. If you are serious about this,
please, post when you'll be there. I know I'll make a trip out to see
how bad you are with Rogue.

--
Fluffy

[seth james killian]

stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) writes:

>> Oh- you "don't know" if it's a "regular occurence", and you're
>>similarly generous in allowing that those flailing away *might* not be
>>the best in the country at it? This from a man who has *obviously* never
>>even seen the issue under discussion? God, you are a shocking jackass.

>My goodness, Seth... can't you tell that guy to buy his _own_ lunch instead
>of stealing your money for it all the time? Or were you planning on going
>to the Rocket Burger instead of just McDonald's today and so you lost more
>money than usual? :)

Lunch money? Rocket Burger? I had no idea what this was until
I had read further through your leaden post- it was only then that I
recognized the above as a "joke". And not just any joke, but the
Grand Marshall at the head of a looong parade of relentless duds
inflicted over the course of the post. I seriously can't recall
seeing anyone devote so much space to something that doesn't even
approach funny. You're a fucking dud-Ninja.

>Uh huh. Sanchez reports that Jackson was reading him so badly that he'd
>throw out AHVB's to bake helpers, BEFORE the helpers actually appeared on
>the screen, and comments that what really had him scared was when he just
>throws an eagle from Strider and Jackson roasted him for it.

Um, here's what I know: Considering Jackson is playing Cable,
a character that can kill 1+ opponents for tiny mistakes, if he was
actually reading Arturo that well, I would have thought (and call me
crazy here) that he *would have fucking won*. But that's not how it
happened. So forgive me if I (having only *seen the match*) am a bit
less amazed than you are by the whole thing.

>How... intellectually honest of you to conveniently snip all of that from
>Sanchez and then just flame me for it when I observe with amusement that
>this is the sort of thing that I've had to deal with from the guy, too.

Here's a newsflash: Arturo is (when he's not a backstabbing
supersnake :) a nice guy, who tends not to bag on people personally.
He's liberal with the props to other players. That's totally cool,
but your mistaking his common courtesy for his being wowwed by your
hero is just a mistake. How could you possibly make such a mistake?
Hmm. Well, 1) Don't know Arturo (because you've never been to a
tournament- he's at like every one). 2) Didn't even see the match
you're trying to talk about.

>Tell me, you ever gotten that kind of reaction from a guy at Sanchez's level
>in a major tournament?

Um, I don't go polling around for reactions to my play. Does
*winning the tournament* count as a sufficiently "favorable reaction"?
I know that's not something you, or anyone from you've ever even met
would know anything about, but work with me here. Can I be as cool as
you guys now too?
I'm going to get a shirt made up for your inagural tournament
appearance: "I'm the guy who *gives the most trouble* to a player who
was once mentioned favorably by ARTURO SANCHEZ! (the guy who guy 4th
at the tournament in question!)". Wear it with pride, Stilt. Your
years of relentless SF play have finally been vindicated. Welcome
to the winners circle- you've earned it, baby.

>> Again, you *haven't* played a lot of people in a lot of places,
>>or at least not a lot of people who are any damn good. The greater
>>southern Oregon area does not qualify as "a lot of places".

>Portland... two major unis in Oregon... Vancouver... Indianapolis (although
>you're right about that one, no one was much good there, much as Mr. Daniels
>warned me)... Seattle (where Tom Cannon was until recently)... okay, maybe
>not as widely travelled as some folks here, but still more than your average
>mall scrub.

?!? I just can't beat you at your own game of making yourself
look as weak as, in fact, you are. Not one, but *two* of the *major-est*
universities in the *entire fucking state of Oregon*??? Stop the fucking
presses. Add to that some mysterious random appearances at other
giants on the Pacific Northwest SF circuit, and you're looking good.
Some of these SF mecca's were even once home to such Name-players as
the illustrious Tom Cannon. Nevermind that you didn't actually *play*
him- that shouldn't get in the way of a good name drop- his legacy of
greatness infuses the local players long after he's gone, so I'm sure
whatever you played was pretty much as good.
And then, branching out, you hit Indianapolis! Woo! Where
you were able to dominate, failing to mention that the game only
showed up there like 2 days before you did (notice the *1* released
character? was that not a clue you hadn't come to the home of the
premier competition?), and never actually even played either of
the best players in Indy, Omni and Tin.
Then you're good enough to admit that you're "maybe not as widely
travelleed as some folks here" (that's big of you- thanks for being
upfront)- but then you close with complete self-vindication by pointing
out your superiority to mall scrubs. Oh wait- not *all* mall scrubs.
Not those fancy, globe-trotting mall scrubs who have, say, visited
places one state away, but you're securely superior to (and I quote)
"average" mall scrubs. Congratulations. Looking back over your long
career, being able to say that really makes it all worthwhile.
Stiltman: now better than average mall scrubs! A worthy epithet.

>Hmmmm. Not a lot who are any damn good? Well, Ray Teruja, Jr. got a #9
>at 3s at B4, I've played him at SF2:HF (where he beat me more often than not)
>and MvC2 (where I beat him a _lot_ more often than not).

The Streetfighter who's-who marches on! Stilt's also locked horns
with the world famous Ray Teruja (Jr!)! (crowd "ooohs"). Of cours, you
don't play him at the game in which you mention he placed, but...

Jackson came
>close enough to beating one of the best two players on the east coast at
>MvC2 that Mr. Sanchez was willing to describe him as, quote, "one of the
>better players I've ever played against", unquote...

Again- maybe you should get Jackson to tattoo that on his forehead.
Or maybe he's not quite as enthusiastic about it as you are? Possibly?
Because he was there, and has some semblance of an idea about what is up?
And "one of the better players"! My my- I'd say that guarantees him a
place in the- what? It's the top 50%!!! Congratulations! Of the many
hundreds of people Arturo has played against, the guy who *you know* is
in the top half (at least!) of those hundreds. Wow.
Jerky- again, Arturo is a pretty nice guy. He says nice things
about the way other people play. Stop trying to use your tiny, tiny
inroad into the SF center as something of mammoth significance. It's
an offhanded comment. Get over it. Truth be told, Arturo complimented
*my* playing of MVC2 in Chicago, and he knows I suck. I suck so bad
that I didn't even enter the tournament, there or in Folsom, and I'm
usually happy to enter tournaments that I don't have a serious shot at.
Arturo is just a complimentary guy- that's cool, but you misunderstand
it. Did you forget the part where he mentions the random arcade at
which he got *stranded* in Oakland? The random locals he ran into
there got the same kind of high praise. Or are they now in the
elite as well? You're an idiot.

which, I dare say, is
>a lot more glowing of a description than I've ever seen anyone make of you
>in that particular game.

Notice you haven't seen anyone make *any* description of me in that
game, because I don't play it seriously. You play more in 2 weeks than I've
played total.
BTW- way to cover your ass with the "in that particular game"
clause. Because as you know, I'm better than Jackson at the games I play
seriously than he is at the games he plays seriously. And I'm miles better
than you.

In fact, I don't have the slightest doubt that if
>you and I were to meet over an MvC2 game in a dark arcade somewhere, I'd hand
>you your ass. Of course, that's easy for me to say... your name hasn't been
>seen on a top 10 list on anything newer than ST, so what can I say?

... Are you seriously trying to talk shit to me? Seriously?
You- the beyond-no-name loudmouth, who can't make it next door to play
the best after god knows how many years, is going to try and bag on me,
who's been all over, played all the best, with a consistent tournament
record (minus b4- choke-tastic!)? I really shouldn't even touch that
because now it's not even a joke.
This is all because some guy you know placed "top 10" (am I to
read that as what- tied for 9th?) at one tournament, so now *you're*
a big man by association? Jesus Christ. My *average* tournament
placing is better than the best of anyone you've even met. And you'ree
talking shit to me. Shut the fuck up, you microscopic, limpdicked
keyboard jockey. You child. You scrub.
(And btw- whether you see it or not, my name has been on top 10
lists on games newer than ST. And please save yourself the embarrassment
of bagging on ST. MVC2 is a lot of fun, but it's the merely the newest in
a string of flavors of the month. People will still be playing ST
when they can't even remember which characters were in MVC2).

>> And irrespective of how good Jackson is (or isn't), his
>>ability to hit a lot of shit with AHVBs doesn't reveal *anything*
>>about brains, or reaction.

>Tell me, Seth... have you ever played Jackson at this thing? I've got that
>one on you.

No, you don't. I did play Jackson. WTF is your point supposed
to be here? You have jack shit on me- and you're *still* trying to talk
about a tournament you didn't even see- I did. You're trying to turn
this into a point in your favor??? WTF???

>>The difference between completely unexceptional and championship
>>level Cable play is extremely small, and consists mostly in
>>your ability to do a tiger knee motion quickly and consistently,

>Ummmm... no. Brian's Cable is considerably behind Jackson's. It's not

>because he doesn't realize how many things he can AHVB, it's because he
>doesn't realize a lot of other things about timing and positioning in
>Cable's game and just plain isn't as comfortable at the controls with
>Cable. There's quite a few things about playing Cable that are less
>simple than your catalog of "things I can AHVB to punish".

Um, not really. Because you know someone named "Brian" who
manages new ways to be bad at Cable does not make it the case that
there's a giant gap between average and pro-Cable playing. Sorry-
you'll need a point herre, rather than just more blather about "timing
(for whom *doesn't* that matter? has nothing specially to do with
Cable) and "positioning". But I'll give you "comfortable behind the
controls"- um, yeah. You gotta have that. (???)

>> Wow. Truly amazing. Are you forgetting that many of us have
>>actually *seen* this guy play, and that your waxing poetic over his
>>unbelievable skills rings a little false after having seen the real
>>thing?

>Yeah. And he came within a late Strider/Doom trap of sending one of the best
>two players on the east coast into the losers' bracket. How pathetic this
>guy must be.

Huh? He lost. He's not pathetic, but neither is he some kind of
minor deity, or even particularly impressive. He's competent, and
was consistent in the tournament. But this has very little to do with
how good Jackson is- it's about you. I understand your reticence to
focus on that, of course.

>Tell me, Seth, you ever done that in an MvC2 tournament? Has anyone you've
>played on a regular basis at the game ever done that? No? Does anyone in
>the state of Illinois ever even get mentioned in that sort of light? Hell,
>does anyone in the state of Illinois even know how to play the game?

The answers to your questions are: No, no, no, and not really.
How do you know this? Because I've said as much repeatedly myself, so
please don't try and throw it back in my face like it's news. I don't
play MVC2, nor have I entered any tournaments, so it's not very
surprising I haven't (almost) sent Arturo (or anyone) to the loser's
bracket. And since I don't play anyone on a regular basis, no one
I play on a regular basis has either (other than your tiny, sad
attempt at rep by association, I can't imagine what this has to do
with anything- although hell- I've played Arturo maybe almost as
much as I've played anyone- can I be cool through association with
him???). As for Illinois, I'm the oldest champion of the fact that
the locals here *suck* (despite what they think). I've beat them
down for years at everything, and I beat them down in MVC2 as well,
despite the fact that I play it like a joke game.
As to anyone knowing how to play the game, maybe I should
say "yes"- because I *do* know how to play the game, and better
than you do. I understand it reasonably well, although I don't play
it myself. How, you ask? By watching the best, and understanding
what they do. That's what I have all over you. That's why I
understand the proper Doom/Strider trap, and know your babbling
about it is pure bullshit. That's why I understand what a good
Cable looks like, and why I know Jackson's isn't amazing.

Hell,
>could you even point out which char in the chart Cable _is_, much less play
>him on Jackson's level? (Hint... he's one of about six or seven players with
>a metal arm... no, not the one with the cape, that's that Doom guy...)

And heeeere come the duds. Man- Seth knows *so little* about
the game, he can't even *identify* Cable! tee-hee!). Funny? That's
a negatory. This is a dud.

>Well, this is basically completely wrong.

(mind-bendingly dull recounting of the crucial balance of
Portland-area MVC2 power deleted).

>The only period of time where Jackson pretty much completely messed me up

>was in the brief period of time....
>Up until about three months ago,...
>Then when he started into...
>Since then...

>throughout all of this, Brian, Jackson, and another guy named Steven have

...

>But, of course, what do I know? I'm only _there_, how could I ever know
>what's going on in my own freaking arcade better than some omniscient guy
>in southern Illinois?

Stilt, please. We all concede your masterful knowledge of the
local Oregon area scene. It's the *game itself* that you don't know
shit about- remember? There you go.

>>That he's too dumb to realize starting with Cable vs
>>good players (or some teams) is a bad move, because he can only AHVB
>>*once*, then it's time for him to get helpered and rushed down.

>Yes, but Jackson's generally pretty good against most teams about keeping
>this from happening, thus this didn't become a terrible liability.

Keeping *what* from happening? Jackson's the one who fired off
the AHVB that left him meterless only to score all-healable damage. I
would hope he'd be better than "pretty good" at preventing that from
happening, since he's the one causing it. Cable without meter is not
very good. That's why *better players* tend not to start with him, if
he's their main gun. So when they get that "mistake", they can kill
for it, instead of just hurting a helper who's going to recover it all
anyway.

After
>all, Sanchez didn't get a real chance to exploit this on him until the third
>game. Notice that part in the second game where Sanchez comments that
>Jackson _repeatedly_ AHVB'ed his helpers before they came out? Note your
>English plurals, Seth... Jackson got off more than one of those, and Cable
>was described as killed of "finally".

Point? Here's something you seem to forget. Jackson loses.
He places a nothing-to-write-home-about-unless you're a superscrub
like Stilt 9th (maybe 7th?). Those are placings I get *pissed off*
over, and you're beside yourself with glee because someone who you
know (and who probably thinks you're an embarrassment in real life)
placed that high.

>> Well go figure what? You were the guy at Nowheresville Arcade
>>that "gave him the most trouble"- another one of your maddeningly vague
>>locutions for "lost least humiliatingly"?

>Uh, no. As in, I defeated him quite a few times when he didn't put Cable up

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'm guessing the reason you keep using these vague phrases is
because 1) you didn't actually win more than you lost, because you'd
say so if you had 2) you can't make yourself look any less bad than
this, because you have to actually face people who read this stuff and
who know you'd be completely full of shit if you ventured out of the
land of the vague. I'm not after numbers here, but you know when
you're losing more than winning, and every phrase you use to describe
your record is consistent with having mostly lost.

>> Can you actually say anything about the game that does *not* reveal
>>you as the superscrub longtime readers know you to be? Letting a helper
>>like BH eat (one) AHVB to burn off Cable meter is hardly a "bold" or
>>amazing tactic- it's called you strip Cable's only real threat/offense
>>by trading it for 50% of entirely healable damage.

>Funny, I thought that block damage was also a pretty big part of Cable's
>threat/offense, especially when he's got the likes of BH on the team to pin
>you down, throws grenades over your head to discourage you from jumping, and
>calls Doom's rocks if you stay on the ground too long.

Wrong. Cable can do block damage, of course, but it's not a big
part his game, unlike say Strider/Doom, Iceman, Doom alone, etc. All your
big Portland wins don't teach you what you'd learn in an afternoon at a
tournament. I'm not kidding either. Ask anyone who's been- they'll tell
you it's an invaluable learning experience.

>> There really *is* no adjustment. You block. You're asking us
>>to believe that you, after getting a half-assed, watered down version
>>from the mall scrubs with internet access, have "made some adjustments",
>>such that it's not a real factor? While the rest of the countries
>>top players, who developed it, and used it against each other *routinely*,
>>still haven't figured out such Stilt-brand quantum leaps like "pushblock
>>it!", or "jump away!". Admit that you haven't seen it, you lying pile
>>of puke. How are you supposed to have seen it, if Jackson hadn't?

>Well... I can think of a number of ways.

>On that note, the answer is, "When I ran into it prior to B4, it was either
>Jackson himself doing it, or Jackson was not present when it was being done."
>But then again, I'm only there, what do I know about what shows up at the
>arcade compared to some guy in Illinois?

Here's a clue: My insight into what goes on in Oregon (about which
I'm endlessly fascinated) comes from your completely unprovoked posts about
it. The way I know you haven't been subjected to a tight Strider/Doom
trap is not by having a live video link to your machine- it's by your
describing "how to get out of it", which blatantly does not work when
the trap is executed properly. There's no pretense to omniscience on
my part here- you play yourself (as always) by posting bullshit that
won't help anyone, and is ineffective against the real deal.

>> This is just more empty, vague bullshit, in which you've said
>>nothing that isn't just sort of false. It would be more false the less
>>vague you were, but that's for you to handle. Rogue has *no* distinctive
>>tactics that help her escape the Strider/Doom trap, nor have you
>>suggested anything that helps anyone really "weaken" it, or helpfully
>>"run interference" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean).

>Yet for some reason I manage to beat people doing it. They'll probably get
>better at doing it, but I'll probably get better at stopping it, too.

You've never seen it. Anyone who has, and has even thought of
trying your extremely obvious suggestions knows you haven't ever seen it.
Goodnight. Just having Strider with oroborous and calling Doom is not
enough. I give up on you. You should be trying to track down some
of the bounty of footage from B4 rather than blathering on about how
to punish people when they fuck up the trap.

>> Arturo was fooling around, and *still* won.

>That's not what I read when I saw the article. I seem to recall him saying
>he stopped messing around the moment he saw Jackson pick out his team.

What about the "*still won*" part? Any confusion there? Does
Jackson want to say he was better than anyone who placed above him?
Shut the fuck up.

I'm weary. Your intentional weaselling with vagueries would be
more entertaining if you were smart enough to consistently pull it off,
which you very obviously are not. So let's review:
You still haven't played real players, much less beat anyone.
You still haven't even seen the trap you write pages denouncing, which
are now resoundingly ignored by anyone who's seen it. You've got your
panties in a major bunch over someone you know's getting a rank that
would embarrass most serious players, while you yourself have
managed to outshine (most) mall scrubs. You've got your panties in
an even larger, more revoltingly wedged bunch over an offhanded
friendly comment made by someone who likes to make friendly, offhanded
comments about even players who are no damn good. You should really
shut up now- you've gone well beyond embarrassing yourself, and have
probably now embarrassed Jackson, who seems like a nice enough guy,
and with a little decent comp might even be a real contender, in a
galaxy far, far away.
Before you bother to even attempt to blow your own horn
here, let me end by embarrassing you: with Doom being one of the
simplest characters in the entire game to use well, and you being
a regular Doom player, as well as someone who thinks he's pretty
neat, how many times a match do you use Doom's jumping fierce?
I trust at least the presence of others who actually watch you
play here will prevent you from just blatantly lying to cover
yourself. So here it is- a simple question about very basic
tactics for one of the easiest characters in the game. This
isn't some esoteric boobytrap I've set for you-- I'm just betting
(and I could even be wrong) that you suck so bad you'll blow it,
and will save me the trouble of proving your scrubitude with
your (hopefully honest, non-vage) answer. This is a completely
fair challenge on the game of your choice. Now put up (and then
shut up).

peach out, scrubalufagous.

Seth Killian

[sol t kim]

Hey, Julien, what's up?
Where's that Japanese report coming? We are all dying to know how
Japanese play MvC2...

In article <8lisub$mr9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

Julien B Beasley <j...@my-deja.com> wrote:

>Hey great report!!
>
>I used to play at the Oak Tree back in high school (92-93). But the Oak
>Tree burned down in 93! It's back up again!
>
>There was a stabbing in the back of the Oak Tree in 93 over street
>fighter. Throws are cheap...
>
>Julien
>
>

>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.

--

[Viscant]

>
>Uh huh. Sanchez reports that Jackson was reading him so badly that he'd
>throw out AHVB's to bake helpers, BEFORE the helpers actually appeared on
>the screen, and comments that what really had him scared was when he just
>throws an eagle from Strider and Jackson roasted him for it.
>
>How... intellectually honest of you to conveniently snip all of that from
>Sanchez and then just flame me for it when I observe with amusement that
>this is the sort of thing that I've had to deal with from the guy, too.
>
>Tell me, you ever gotten that kind of reaction from a guy at Sanchez's level
>in a major tournament?

OK. Basically here's what it looked like from someone who watched the match
1sthand. Arturo was playing the same pattern over and over again. Without
even any walking to break the repetition. If Jackson HADN'T AHVBd the helper
that was sure to come out I would have laughed my ass off at him.
This is not exceptional. This is standard Cable play on the level of
say...standard Storm play is killing a lot of time.

>Tell me, Seth... have you ever played Jackson at this thing? I've got that
>one on you.

If he didn't play him a few times during casual play, he certainly saw him play
quite a few times.
As for me personally, yes, I played Jackson a few times and the verdict is that
aside from a better than average sense of position (I'll give him credit that
when his super meter was below 2 he got the hell out of dodge when I had
Cyclops in), he had a better than average Cable and largely forgettable
partners for him. With a little effort, Cyclops/Doom/Cammy (the official team
screw around during practice) took him down every time. I may be slightly
biased because I've played literally thousands of different Cables, including
Duc's and image's repeatedly, but he was not So.Cal quality. Does this mean he
wasn't any good? Not at all. Like Seth said, when Cable (or to be fair,
Sentinel as well) are involved, the line between absolute perfection and merely
above average is very, very thin. All that separated him from Duc was a bit of
experience, the tiger knee motion and losing his fear and to stop doing jump
back +viper beam (the single biggest difference in scrub Cable and advanced
Cable). But for god's sake get off your high horse that he's anything special.

>
>>That he's too dumb to realize starting with Cable vs
>>good players (or some teams) is a bad move, because he can only AHVB
>>*once*, then it's time for him to get helpered and rushed down.
>
>Yes, but Jackson's generally pretty good against most teams about keeping
>this from happening, thus this didn't become a terrible liability. After
>all, Sanchez didn't get a real chance to exploit this on him until the third
>game. Notice that part in the second game where Sanchez comments that
>Jackson _repeatedly_ AHVB'ed his helpers before they came out? Note your
>English plurals, Seth... Jackson got off more than one of those, and Cable
>was described as killed of "finally".

The overall point here is, that by starting Cable, the damage was minimalized.
Had Cable been in 2nd position behind any decent battery whatsoever, those
helpers would not have been wounded; they'd have died. Another small
difference that sets experienced Cables apart. All So. Cali Cable players have
put theirs in 2nd besides maybe Michael Morse, who I've been urging strongly to
put his behind Iceman. It was a mistake I'm sure he won't repeat in the
future. He needs to develop a battery. Hopefully he can XCOPY Duc's Spiral
and take that up.

>Funny, I thought that block damage was also a pretty big part of Cable's
>threat/offense, especially when he's got the likes of BH on the team to pin
>you down, throws grenades over your head to discourage you from jumping, and
>calls Doom's rocks if you stay on the ground too long.

Note to scrub: It isn't. Cable's viper beams are for the most part unsafe and
Doom (unless in battery position) does not work well with Cable at all, which I
suppose is a good thing. Combining the #1 character in the game bar none with
Cable would not be fair at all.

[snip the rest of this inanity]

Stilt Man, you blithering idiot. Instead of just talking about how your locals
are so high and mighty, PLEASE go to a tournament. These games are obviously
important enough to you that you'll waste way too much of our time by posting
about them. You seem to think you're of tournament quality in these games. So
why don't you prove it. Others from your area could make it; why can't you?
And if you're going to be in the So.Cal area for any period of time please let
us know so we can provide a suitable welcoming committee and please go to SHGL.
After you get trashed, I expect to see a nice written apology about how just
about everything you've ever said about MvC2 was wrong. Because if you want to
even think about using Rogue against any of the current top tier (Doom,
Strider, Storm, Spiral, Cable, Sentinel, Cyclops, BH), you're going to get an
unholy whooping.
That is all.

--Viscant, The Icy Rose
"One more time..."

[Stilt Man]

In article <kPjf5.3576$Il3....@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,

seth james killian <skil...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:

>stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) writes:
>>> Oh- you "don't know" if it's a "regular occurence", and you're
>>>similarly generous in allowing that those flailing away *might* not be
>>>the best in the country at it? This from a man who has *obviously* never
>>>even seen the issue under discussion? God, you are a shocking jackass.

>>My goodness, Seth... can't you tell that guy to buy his _own_ lunch instead
>>of stealing your money for it all the time? Or were you planning on going
>>to the Rocket Burger instead of just McDonald's today and so you lost more
>>money than usual? :)

> Lunch money? Rocket Burger? I had no idea what this was until
>I had read further through your leaden post- it was only then that I
>recognized the above as a "joke".

Congratulations, you're quicker on the uptake than your average banana slug.
Give yourself a cookie.

(Seth 1, Banana slug 0.)

> And then, branching out, you hit Indianapolis! Woo! Where
>you were able to dominate, failing to mention that the game only
>showed up there like 2 days before you did (notice the *1* released
>character? was that not a clue you hadn't come to the home of the
>premier competition?),

Yes, I'm aware of that. I've mentioned as much.

(Seth 2, Banana slug 0.)

>and never actually even played either of the best players in Indy, Omni and
>Tin.

That wasn't by lack of effort to pin their silly ears to the wall and get them
and an arcade together to actually get it done. I spoke on the phone a time
or three with Omni but never got the chance to get together with him because
our respective schedules kept us apart while we were there.

(Uh oh, Seth slipped... Seth 2, Banana slug 1.)

> (And btw- whether you see it or not, my name has been on top 10
>lists on games newer than ST. And please save yourself the embarrassment
>of bagging on ST.

I wasn't bagging on ST, I was bagging on _you_. Don't you recognize a blatant
troll-job when you see one?

(Bad, bad... Seth 2, Banana slug 2.)

>MVC2 is a lot of fun, but it's the merely the newest in
>a string of flavors of the month. People will still be playing ST
>when they can't even remember which characters were in MVC2).

Probably true.

(Seth 3, Banana slug 2... oooo, it's getting intense!)

>>> And irrespective of how good Jackson is (or isn't), his
>>>ability to hit a lot of shit with AHVBs doesn't reveal *anything*
>>>about brains, or reaction.

>>Tell me, Seth... have you ever played Jackson at this thing? I've got that
>>one on you.

> No, you don't. I did play Jackson. WTF is your point supposed
>to be here? You have jack shit on me- and you're *still* trying to talk
>about a tournament you didn't even see- I did. You're trying to turn
>this into a point in your favor??? WTF???

(Maybe Seth should get two points for this... Seth 5, Banana slug 2... go,
snail-dude, go! :)

>>>The difference between completely unexceptional and championship
>>>level Cable play is extremely small, and consists mostly in
>>>your ability to do a tiger knee motion quickly and consistently,

>>Ummmm... no. Brian's Cable is considerably behind Jackson's. It's not
>>because he doesn't realize how many things he can AHVB, it's because he
>>doesn't realize a lot of other things about timing and positioning in
>>Cable's game and just plain isn't as comfortable at the controls with
>>Cable. There's quite a few things about playing Cable that are less
>>simple than your catalog of "things I can AHVB to punish".

> Um, not really. Because you know someone named "Brian" who
>manages new ways to be bad at Cable does not make it the case that
>there's a giant gap between average and pro-Cable playing. Sorry-
>you'll need a point herre, rather than just more blather about "timing
>(for whom *doesn't* that matter? has nothing specially to do with
>Cable) and "positioning". But I'll give you "comfortable behind the
>controls"- um, yeah. You gotta have that. (???)

(Hmmmm... naw, I gotta give this one to the slug. Lead falls to Seth by 2
at 5-3...)

>>> Wow. Truly amazing. Are you forgetting that many of us have
>>>actually *seen* this guy play, and that your waxing poetic over his
>>>unbelievable skills rings a little false after having seen the real
>>>thing?

>>Yeah. And he came within a late Strider/Doom trap of sending one of the best
>>two players on the east coast into the losers' bracket. How pathetic this
>>guy must be.

> Huh? He lost. He's not pathetic, but neither is he some kind of
>minor deity, or even particularly impressive.

Nor did I say he was.

(Slug makes up big ground here... at least 3 points. Slug 6, Seth 5. Whatta
comeback!)

>He's competent, and
>was consistent in the tournament. But this has very little to do with
>how good Jackson is- it's about you. I understand your reticence to
>focus on that, of course.

I wasn't making the case that I was somehow better because he went. My only
real point in this was that I'm not surrounded by complete idiots. Which, in
acknowledging that Jackson is "competent, and was consistent" you're sort of
sideways granting that maybe someone in these backwoods has a _rough_ idea
what they're doing.

(Slug 7, Seth 5. This doesn't look good...)

>>Tell me, Seth, you ever done that in an MvC2 tournament? Has anyone you've
>>played on a regular basis at the game ever done that? No? Does anyone in
>>the state of Illinois ever even get mentioned in that sort of light? Hell,
>>does anyone in the state of Illinois even know how to play the game?

> The answers to your questions are: No, no, no, and not really.

(Uh oh... uh oh... Seth answers the obvious. Slug 8, Seth 5.)

>How do you know this? Because I've said as much repeatedly myself, so
>please don't try and throw it back in my face like it's news.

(Further belaboring the obvious... Slug 9, Seth 5. Bad, bad, bad...)

>> Hell,
>>could you even point out which char in the chart Cable _is_, much less play
>>him on Jackson's level? (Hint... he's one of about six or seven players with
>>a metal arm... no, not the one with the cape, that's that Doom guy...)

> And heeeere come the duds. Man- Seth knows *so little* about
>the game, he can't even *identify* Cable! tee-hee!). Funny? That's
>a negatory. This is a dud.

(Hmmmm... probably ought to give both the slug and Seth a point for this...
12-6.)

>>Well, this is basically completely wrong.

> (mind-bendingly dull recounting of the crucial balance of
>Portland-area MVC2 power deleted).

Uh huh... like you've never recounted the crucial balance of UIUC SF2 power
in your time on this newsgroup.

(Hypocrisy... 13-6.)

>>The only period of time where Jackson pretty much completely messed me up
>>was in the brief period of time....
>>Up until about three months ago,...
>>Then when he started into...
>>Since then...
>>throughout all of this, Brian, Jackson, and another guy named Steven have
>...

>>But, of course, what do I know? I'm only _there_, how could I ever know
>>what's going on in my own freaking arcade better than some omniscient guy
>>in southern Illinois?

> Stilt, please. We all concede your masterful knowledge of the
>local Oregon area scene. It's the *game itself* that you don't know
>shit about- remember? There you go.

Convenient of you to grant that now after you were just saying one whole post
ago (seems like eons, doesn't it?) that he hammers me left and right. Even
said it with enough fervor that we found someone in Boston crazy enough to
tell me how much someone I know beats me, too.

(Slug 14, Seth 6.)

>> After
>>all, Sanchez didn't get a real chance to exploit this on him until the third
>>game. Notice that part in the second game where Sanchez comments that
>>Jackson _repeatedly_ AHVB'ed his helpers before they came out? Note your
>>English plurals, Seth... Jackson got off more than one of those, and Cable
>>was described as killed of "finally".

> Point? Here's something you seem to forget. Jackson loses.
>He places a nothing-to-write-home-about-unless you're a superscrub
>like Stilt 9th (maybe 7th?). Those are placings I get *pissed off*
>over, and you're beside yourself with glee because someone who you
>know (and who probably thinks you're an embarrassment in real life)
>placed that high.

Heh. He might just realize that I'm amusing myself by trolling the grumpy
old man. Or maybe he realizes that what I'm really getting at is, given that
we're all supposed to suck over here in this state that no one east of the
Rockies can seem to pronounce the name of properly, it's not terribly shabby
to say that only 8 (or 6) players from the rest of the country placed ahead
of our top player in this thing, or that he came close enough to beating one
of the best couple of players on the east coast that the guy actively thought
he was going to lose towards the end of the third game. If those guys bring
a thing or three back (and if I do as well when I go to Cali next month)
we just might get somewhere.

That's not too bad from a bunch of hicks out in the woods who supposedly
don't know the game from Time Killers.

(Slug 15, Seth 6.)

>>> Well go figure what? You were the guy at Nowheresville Arcade
>>>that "gave him the most trouble"- another one of your maddeningly vague
>>>locutions for "lost least humiliatingly"?

>>Uh, no. As in, I defeated him quite a few times when he didn't put Cable up
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> I'm guessing the reason you keep using these vague phrases is
>because 1) you didn't actually win more than you lost, because you'd
>say so if you had

When he played Magneto/Cable/Cyclops, it's probably fair to say that I beat
him more often than not. When it was OR in front it was about half-and-half.

(Slug 16, Seth 6. C'mon, Seth! Go, team, go!)

>2) you can't make yourself look any less bad than
>this, because you have to actually face people who read this stuff and
>who know you'd be completely full of shit if you ventured out of the
>land of the vague.

Uhhh... no. I imagine at least a few folks from the Portland area would be
arguing with me on this if that were the case. I've spotted at least three
coming out of lurk mode, only one of whom (Jackson) has _not_ spent the vast
majority of their time in the arcade with me and an MvC2 machine waiting in
line.

(Seth fails to realize that I'm not the only Portland guy who posts here...
Slug 17, Seth 6.)

>I'm not after numbers here, but you know when
>you're losing more than winning, and every phrase you use to describe
>your record is consistent with having mostly lost.

I'd say that my lifetime record against Jackson is probably somewhere upwards
of 40%. Probably below 50, yes. The Magneto games, I was beating him as
much or more than not.

(Major misinterpretation of my repeatedly saying that I do just fine overall
against him. Slug 20, Seth 6.)

> Wrong. Cable can do block damage, of course, but it's not a big
>part his game, unlike say Strider/Doom, Iceman, Doom alone, etc. All your
>big Portland wins don't teach you what you'd learn in an afternoon at a
>tournament. I'm not kidding either. Ask anyone who's been- they'll tell
>you it's an invaluable learning experience.

Oh... you mean like... the guys who I've been playing with pretty much every
freaking day since B4?

(Ouch. Slug 25, Seth 6.)

> You've never seen it. Anyone who has, and has even thought of
>trying your extremely obvious suggestions knows you haven't ever seen it.
>Goodnight. Just having Strider with oroborous and calling Doom is not
>enough. I give up on you. You should be trying to track down some
>of the bounty of footage from B4 rather than blathering on about how
>to punish people when they fuck up the trap.

Been watching shoryuken.com like a hawk for some sort of sign, yes.

(Seth gets some credit here... Slug 25, Seth 10. We're almost down to a
couple of touchdowns again. There's hope...)

>>> Arturo was fooling around, and *still* won.

>>That's not what I read when I saw the article. I seem to recall him saying
>>he stopped messing around the moment he saw Jackson pick out his team.

> What about the "*still won*" part? Any confusion there? Does
>Jackson want to say he was better than anyone who placed above him?

Nope. But Jackson made him work for it. That's not too bad.

(Seth probably gets a field goal for this... Slug 25, Seth 13.)

> You still haven't played real players, much less beat anyone.

If you can make the top 10 at B4, I'd call it a "real player"... and I've
beaten him. We'll see how I do in the tourney this weekend.

(Probably no score here.)

>You still haven't even seen the trap you write pages denouncing, which
>are now resoundingly ignored by anyone who's seen it. You've got your
>panties in a major bunch over someone you know's getting a rank that
>would embarrass most serious players, while you yourself have
>managed to outshine (most) mall scrubs.

Show of hands of people on this newsgroup who would be embarassed by placing
in the top 10 at B4? Hmmmm?

Or do they not count as serious players?

(Slug 26, Seth 13.)

> Before you bother to even attempt to blow your own horn
>here, let me end by embarrassing you: with Doom being one of the
>simplest characters in the entire game to use well, and you being
>a regular Doom player, as well as someone who thinks he's pretty
>neat, how many times a match do you use Doom's jumping fierce?

Put it together with BH's assist and it makes a decent harassing move and
meter builder. I don't typically just hold up-back on the stick and mash
on the fierce button, no (I'm aware of the tactic, though) but if I don't
have a situation where I'm at a disadvantage near the ground I'll do it for
brief bursts to get a meter full; even if I'm forced to stay in the air most
of the time I'll sometimes throw one out just for the extra meter and
cancel it into pink stuff. Depends on whether I want to get the pink stuff
out quickly, too.

A real number is probably closer to ten or more if I'm worried about getting
hit close to the ground, somewhere better than twenty or thirty if I'm not
as worried about it and I'm not dinking around and spending my time playing
Doom like a pseudo-pixie rather than a keepaway char. (Yes, I'm aware that
playing Doom like a pseudo-pixie is not generally real sound except against
scrubs or really slow chars.)

How about a serious answer now? How many times would you say I _should_ use
it? Believe it or not, I _am_ listening.

[Anthony Cannon]

In article <8lkogc$b65$1...@user2.teleport.com>,

Even without the BH assist, Doom's full screen jumping fierce is one
of the most effective batteries in the game. Done correctly, the
sequence is amazingly difficult to jump out of. You're kept in nearly
perpetual blockstun. It's so tight you can use it to get a 6-hit combo
(that's *3* j.fierces in a row) on Juggernaut during his powerup animation.
Even if your opponent does get out, there's not much they can do to retailate.

>even if I'm forced to stay in the air most
>of the time I'll sometimes throw one out just for the extra meter and
>cancel it into pink stuff. Depends on whether I want to get the pink stuff
>out quickly, too.

Sometimes? Why not always? Doom's j.fierce moves him up and towards
his opponent during the first few frames. Which means that in addition
to building meter, hitting fierce gives you a slightly better position
than not hitting it. The time delay is negligable. I can't see
why you wouldn't hit fierce before every photon.

Furthermore, Doom's easiest, damaging air-combo BY FAR is
sj.jab, sj.short, sj.strong, sj.forward, sj.fierce XX super.
Cancel the fierce immediately. If you omit the fierce, only
1/2 of the photos will hit. If you're advanced, you can try to
do the same thing with an air-dash (or a rh cancelled into an airdash),
but I don't see the point, except that it's more stylish.

>A real number is probably closer to ten or more if I'm worried about getting
>hit close to the ground, somewhere better than twenty or thirty if I'm not
>as worried about it and I'm not dinking around and spending my time playing
>Doom like a pseudo-pixie rather than a keepaway char. (Yes, I'm aware that
>playing Doom like a pseudo-pixie is not generally real sound except against
>scrubs or really slow chars.)

Not the answer I would have given... I would have said:

Before every photon...
In every air-combo...
Plus a ton more when I'm locking them down from full screen.

BTW, I don't play Doom at all. All my answers are based on watching
other people play him (another reason to go to tournaments... everyone
go to B5!!) When I play (which is rarely), I'm a glitched
Juggernaut man. Since we're into quizzes (and I'm bored), let
me ask you this: When is Cable vulnerable against a team with
glitched Juggernaut? I'll give you a situation for free: a blocked
ground VB against Juggernaut can be headcrushed. Probably not a
fair quiz since you don't play Juggernaut, but, like I said, I'm
bored.

--
Tony Cannon
pon...@best.com

[tortoise]

pon...@best.com (Anthony Cannon) wrote:

>Since we're into quizzes (and I'm bored), let
>me ask you this: When is Cable vulnerable against a team with
>glitched Juggernaut? I'll give you a situation for free: a
blocked
>ground VB against Juggernaut can be headcrushed. Probably not a
>fair quiz since you don't play Juggernaut, but, like I said, I'm
>bored.

Whenever Cable throws out a ground viper beam and his opponent
has two levels, whether Juggs is
currently in or not. I /think/ I first got this from watching
you actually. But, can cable recover intime
from air viper beams to avoid the headcrush? Guess I gotta test
that out. I suppose Cable could
super cancel into HVB if he suspects what is about to happen.

Matt
mgreer[at]artic.edu

"And if your dog or cat ever dies, I'll buy you a ewe."

-----------------------------------------------------------

Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
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[Greg Young]

> (Slug 26, Seth 13.)

I've been watching this thread for a while, simply because I haven't seen Seth post
in a while and it's usually rather entertaining when he does. Anyway, Stilt, this
whole banana slug mess is pretty stupid. Regardless of what the slug can do
against Seth, Seth's got you beat here. Bad. You really can't deny it. He's been
to tournaments and he knows what's going on... even in a game that he doesn't
play. He also has the maturity that comes with old-school players to realize the
big picture when it comes to competitive SF. However, you have no hand at all in
this type of matter (read: competitive SF). You've never been to any major
tournament and you've never played anybody good. How can you even begin to argue
with Seth?

The only thing you have going for you (at least from you point of view) is that
this Jackson kid managed to place 13th (according to SpiderDan) at B4, which is
great for him. But what does it do for you?

Nothing.

You can't claim to be good (or even decent) simply because you can hang with this
guy. If you know anything about competitive SF, you know that you'll tend to do
better against people you play constantly. Sure you might be able to annoy Jackson
a little bit, but what happens when you have to play someone you've never played
before? You can't possibly tell. Furthermore, you only play Jackson in exhibition
games where nothing is at stake other than the quarters you dropped into the
machine. Everybody familiar with competitive SF knows that there's a huge
difference in how people play during tournament matches and how they play during
casual exhibition. What makes you think that you could have done anywhere near as
well as Jackson at B4 or at any tournament?

You can theorize all you want, but one thing is for certain. You can't claim to be
at any level of play (at least not on a national scale) with the experience you
have (which is none at all). Even with your slight acquaintance with a tournament
player who did fairly well, there are too many variables for you to make any type
of conclusion as to how good you are at MvC2.

I've been playing MvC2 for about 4 days now... I think the answer to Seth's Doom
question is somewhere in the hundreds.

shh listen,
Greg

[Stilt Man]

In article <8lkrfb$1pol$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com>,

Anthony Cannon <pon...@best.com> wrote:
>In article <8lkogc$b65$1...@user2.teleport.com>,
>Stilt Man <stil...@user2.teleport.com> wrote:

>Even without the BH assist, Doom's full screen jumping fierce is one

>of the most effective batteries in the game.

I agree.

>Done correctly, the
>sequence is amazingly difficult to jump out of. You're kept in nearly
>perpetual blockstun. It's so tight you can use it to get a 6-hit combo
>(that's *3* j.fierces in a row) on Juggernaut during his powerup animation.
>Even if your opponent does get out, there's not much they can do to retailate.

Not before Doom just lands and the thing's immediately cut off, no.

>>even if I'm forced to stay in the air most
>>of the time I'll sometimes throw one out just for the extra meter and
>>cancel it into pink stuff. Depends on whether I want to get the pink stuff
>>out quickly, too.

>Sometimes? Why not always? Doom's j.fierce moves him up and towards

>his opponent during the first few frames. Which means that in addition
>to building meter, hitting fierce gives you a slightly better position
>than not hitting it. The time delay is negligable. I can't see
>why you wouldn't hit fierce before every photon.

If I'm throwing a fast photon charge, it usually means that I super jumped
and pretty well immediately threw the charge, i.e. Doom's only about halfway
up the screen before I stop him to throw it. When I do this, it's usually
either because I'm trying to harass helpers or main chars and I think that
I might catch them napping, cover my own helpers when I know they're in
danger of getting hurt if I don't throw the thing as fast as possible, or
if they have a char who might not survive blocking it, and I'm not sure they
realize it, so I want to get the thing off as fast as I can both to cut down
the chance that they'll get out over it and minimize their time to realize
they're doing something stupid.

If I've got the luxury I'll throw out one most of the time, yeah.

>Furthermore, Doom's easiest, damaging air-combo BY FAR is
>sj.jab, sj.short, sj.strong, sj.forward, sj.fierce XX super.
>Cancel the fierce immediately. If you omit the fierce, only
>1/2 of the photos will hit.

Interesting... never tried that particular one. I guess the instincts are
always telling me from previous games "throw a fierce or roundhouse and the
AC is over".

>>A real number is probably closer to ten or more if I'm worried about getting
>>hit close to the ground, somewhere better than twenty or thirty if I'm not
>>as worried about it and I'm not dinking around and spending my time playing
>>Doom like a pseudo-pixie rather than a keepaway char. (Yes, I'm aware that
>>playing Doom like a pseudo-pixie is not generally real sound except against
>>scrubs or really slow chars.)

>Not the answer I would have given... I would have said:

> Before every photon...
> In every air-combo...
> Plus a ton more when I'm locking them down from full screen.

Mine is probably closer to "before _many_, probably most photons, and in the
full screen battery/lock mode." I'll see if I like it in the air combos.

>BTW, I don't play Doom at all. All my answers are based on watching
>other people play him (another reason to go to tournaments... everyone
>go to B5!!)

Heh... my finances might sort themselves out enough by that time to go to B5.

>When I play (which is rarely), I'm a glitched

>Juggernaut man. Since we're into quizzes (and I'm bored), let

>me ask you this: When is Cable vulnerable against a team with
>glitched Juggernaut? I'll give you a situation for free: a blocked
>ground VB against Juggernaut can be headcrushed. Probably not a
>fair quiz since you don't play Juggernaut, but, like I said, I'm
>bored.

Well, the simple answer is "pretty much anything much slower than an AHVB".
Standing fierce, ground VB, AVB (you can AHVB a blocked AVB, I know, so a
headcrush ought to be able to catch it from halfway close), ground HVB
without a DHC, scimitar, and probably a number of other things that slip
my mind at the moment can all be headcrushed after blocking it. An AHVB
higher off the ground, Rogue can duck under it and kiss his feet good night,
but since Juggernaut's bigger he probably would have to block it and might
not be able to catch him in time (even though the headcrush is a fair amount
faster than good night).

If Cable doesn't have a meter, he's vulnerable to a jug punch assist at
basically any time unless he stops it with an assist of his own or a standing
fierce. (Full screen viper beam might cause the fist to come down short,
though... but it's been a while since I've been on either side of a Cable/Jug
fight so I'm not sure.)

[seth james killian]

stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) writes:

(For the uninitiated- this is now in the land of pretty much
entirely worthless. If you read the post which prompted this "response",
you'll notice that it by-the-numbers fails to address any of the significant
points raised. This is a by now familiar pattern to Stilt's posting,
where he rolls over and plays dead. He doesn't play dead by shutting
the fuck up, of course. He just retreats into his happy land of make-
believe where he's 1) funny. 2) good at SF)

>Congratulations, you're quicker on the uptake than your average banana slug.
>Give yourself a cookie.

>(Seth 1, Banana slug 0.)

Once again mistaking you for something capable of a coherent
thought, I actually tried to follow your running "joke", but I must
confess, it seems to, much like your SF commentary itself, make no
fucking sense.

>> And then, branching out, you hit Indianapolis! Woo! Where
>>you were able to dominate, failing to mention that the game only
>>showed up there like 2 days before you did (notice the *1* released
>>character? was that not a clue you hadn't come to the home of the
>>premier competition?),

>Yes, I'm aware of that. I've mentioned as much.

>(Seth 2, Banana slug 0.)

Why do I score here?

>That wasn't by lack of effort to pin their silly ears to the wall and get them
>and an arcade together to actually get it done. I spoke on the phone a time
>or three with Omni but never got the chance to get together with him because
>our respective schedules kept us apart while we were there.

Yeah. I'm sure. Just like your schedule for the last 7 years has
been too full to manage a moment away as well, right?

>(Uh oh, Seth slipped... Seth 2, Banana slug 1.)

And here- why does the Slug score? I say you didn't play the
two best in Indy, to which you agree. This is no big deal but for the
fact that *you* cited it on your list of "traveling SF experiences".
If you want to count cities that I've been to, but ended up playing
no one but mall scrubs, then I'm like the most undefeated traveling
player ever. I've been all over, but I'm not so stupid as to mention
it among the "places I've played SF" when I didn't face anyone remotely
good.

>> (And btw- whether you see it or not, my name has been on top 10
>>lists on games newer than ST. And please save yourself the embarrassment
>>of bagging on ST.

>I wasn't bagging on ST, I was bagging on _you_. Don't you recognize a blatant
>troll-job when you see one?

Um, you bag on me by citing my repeated appearances as a winning
ST tournament player? That you're too dumb to make a ha-ha is patently
clear- it's the emerging evidence that you're too dumb even to troll
(a feat managed by such a.g.sf2 men of letters as J.B. Gainz and
Jinston) which is fascinating me right now.

>(Bad, bad... Seth 2, Banana slug 2.)

???

>>MVC2 is a lot of fun, but it's the merely the newest in
>>a string of flavors of the month. People will still be playing ST
>>when they can't even remember which characters were in MVC2).

>Probably true.

>(Seth 3, Banana slug 2... oooo, it's getting intense!)

This one I think I see, altough it's not clear why to me yet
why the Banana Slug is competing with me, or over what. It's a "quick
on the uptake" contest? Is that it? How do we know the slug doesn't
also know this? More mysteries of vagueness from the Stilt.

>> No, you don't. I did play Jackson. WTF is your point supposed
>>to be here? You have jack shit on me- and you're *still* trying to talk
>>about a tournament you didn't even see- I did. You're trying to turn
>>this into a point in your favor??? WTF???

>(Maybe Seth should get two points for this... Seth 5, Banana slug 2... go,
>snail-dude, go! :)

So I bust you for attempting to talk authoritatively about a
match (and tournament) you didn't see, you agree, and I score points
on the *Slug*? It looks like I've clearly scored points on *you*...
Perhaps this is an elaborate metaphor as well as an attempt at a joke,
and *you're* supposed to be the slug? The slug seemed to be acting as
a standard-bearer for stupidity in your previous usage, but I accept
your substitution in the role.

>> Um, not really. Because you know someone named "Brian" who
>>manages new ways to be bad at Cable does not make it the case that
>>there's a giant gap between average and pro-Cable playing. Sorry-
>>you'll need a point herre, rather than just more blather about "timing
>>(for whom *doesn't* that matter? has nothing specially to do with
>>Cable) and "positioning". But I'll give you "comfortable behind the
>>controls"- um, yeah. You gotta have that. (???)

>(Hmmmm... naw, I gotta give this one to the slug. Lead falls to Seth by 2
>at 5-3...)

More mysteries. Why does the Slug score? What are we even
supposed to infer that you/slug think about what's been said? Given
that I'm completely right about everything I've said, I'm going to
have to object to giving up the points here.

>> Huh? He lost. He's not pathetic, but neither is he some kind of
>>minor deity, or even particularly impressive.

>Nor did I say he was.

>(Slug makes up big ground here... at least 3 points. Slug 6, Seth 5. Whatta
>comeback!)

So, we're agreeing, and the slug/you scores 3 points? You've
clearly been singing Jackson's praises, I call him solidly mediocre,
but all the sudden you have no objection to any of my characterizations
*and* the slug/you makes a big comeback? This rare insight into how
the mind of Stilt "keeps score" is proving invaluable.

>I wasn't making the case that I was somehow better because he went.

Um, yes you were. That was explicitly your point- to suggest
an increased estimation of you via association with Jackson. Don't
embarrass yourself by denying this- it won't even take a trip to
Dejanews to cram that one back up your ass.

My only
>real point in this was that I'm not surrounded by complete idiots. Which, in
>acknowledging that Jackson is "competent, and was consistent" you're sort of
>sideways granting that maybe someone in these backwoods has a _rough_ idea
>what they're doing.

This is part of why I find you so repugnant. This last bit-
about you having a "_rough_" idea of how to play- you mean that to be
read in some sort of disgusting wink-wink, nod-nod kind of way, where
if I've said that, what I'm *really* admitting is that you guys are
pretty solid, etc. Hell no. I'm not interested in painting your area
as a particular backwoods, etc- I'm interested to point out that you
are a scrub who doesn't know what he's talking about. You're on a
fucking SF newsgroup- that you have a "rough" idea of what the game
is about is of interest to no one- impresses no one. *Everyone*
who would possibly read this shit has a rough idea. So what? Your
best plays predictable, simple characters in a competent manner.
I'm not interested in trying to establish that you, for instance,
don't even know how to do some moves or something- wtf- it's that
at medium-to-high levels of play, you bring zero to the table.
If you're aiming to be recognized having a (literally) rough
idea of how to play- I happily grant you that. But that's
always been your forte', hasn't it? The rough idea? The vague
clue about how to play a match? That half-assed knowledge that's
gets you killed in exciting new ways?

>(Slug 7, Seth 5. This doesn't look good...)

>(Uh oh... uh oh... Seth answers the obvious. Slug 8, Seth 5.)

>(Further belaboring the obvious... Slug 9, Seth 5. Bad, bad, bad...)

??? If belaboring the obvious were a crime, you'd have been
Charlie Manson's commonlaw wife by now. I can't even look at that
shit. I'm busted for belaboring the obvious by a man so oblivious
to basics that he can't even recognize that he hasn't seen what he
thinks he's been discussing for months?

>> And heeeere come the duds. Man- Seth knows *so little* about
>>the game, he can't even *identify* Cable! tee-hee!). Funny? That's
>>a negatory. This is a dud.

>(Hmmmm... probably ought to give both the slug and Seth a point for this...
>12-6.)

So you crack a dud, and the slug/you and I both score.

>> (mind-bendingly dull recounting of the crucial balance of
>>Portland-area MVC2 power deleted).

>Uh huh... like you've never recounted the crucial balance of UIUC SF2 power
>in your time on this newsgroup.

>(Hypocrisy... 13-6.)

Erm- what? I've "recounted" it like twice in 6 years, tops,
both at the request of someone else, and in less than a page. You,
however, launch into detailed analysis of the 14th best player at the
Quik-E-Mart who, if only he can learn to chain into aircombo has a shot
at Big Jim down at the lumbermill. No one knows any of those guys, and
*no one cares*. They all *suck*. You've posted more in the past 2
weeks about some Mall than I've ever posted about UIUC, which by
contrast was one of the early cradles of real SF understanding.

>>>But, of course, what do I know? I'm only _there_, how could I ever know
>>>what's going on in my own freaking arcade better than some omniscient guy
>>>in southern Illinois?

>> Stilt, please. We all concede your masterful knowledge of the
>>local Oregon area scene. It's the *game itself* that you don't know
>>shit about- remember? There you go.

>Convenient of you to grant that now after you were just saying one whole post
>ago (seems like eons, doesn't it?) that he hammers me left and right. Even
>said it with enough fervor that we found someone in Boston crazy enough to
>tell me how much someone I know beats me, too.

God. If you can separate yourself from your pulp-novel phrases
for a minute, maybe you can recognize the facts of what you've already
admitted: Jackson is better than you. He wins most of the time. I'm
sorry if I hurt your widdle feewings by saying he beats you "bad",
instead of just that he beats you.

>(Slug 14, Seth 6.)

Again, the slug really shouldn't be scoring here, especially
if it's you- you score for making it crystal clear that you lose?

>Heh. He might just realize that I'm amusing myself by trolling the grumpy
>old man.

Yeah Stilt- I'm the pawn in your elaborate master plan! When
the final strategy is revealed, my humiliation will be complete! God
you're a ninny.

Or maybe he realizes that what I'm really getting at is, given that
>we're all supposed to suck over here in this state that no one east of the
>Rockies can seem to pronounce the name of properly, it's not terribly shabby
>to say that only 8 (or 6) players from the rest of the country placed ahead
>of our top player in this thing, or that he came close enough to beating one
>of the best couple of players on the east coast that the guy actively thought
>he was going to lose towards the end of the third game. If those guys bring
>a thing or three back (and if I do as well when I go to Cali next month)
>we just might get somewhere.

If you want to claim that it's not "terribly shabby", that's fine.
Whatever. More vague crap. He placed what he placed (by Dan's estimate,
13th, which would by what- a 4-way tie?, as well as safely outside the
bounds of impressive). This all remains beside the point that Jackson
doesn't "represent" a "scene" necessarily at all, especially given that
by your own admission, there's a significant gap between a lot of your
players. None of this is even subject to debate- it's all facts. The
only thing up for grabs is that you seem to take all of it as a point
of pride, which I find incredibly funny, and to be better evidence of
your thoroughly small-time nature than anything else I might hope to
produce.

>That's not too bad from a bunch of hicks out in the woods who supposedly
>don't know the game from Time Killers.

Now Jackson is a "bunch of hicks"? He looked like one guy to me,
whose skills have not obviously benefitted from playing anyone else in
your area. If anything his primary strengths seemed to be those that
anyone could develop in isolation- execution and consistency. Tactics,
broad understanding of the game, etc- things you get from a good scene-
were pretty absent. And again, if you want to be proud that this
proves you can distinguish Time Killers and MVC2- cool.

>(Slug 15, Seth 6.)

Right.

>>>Uh, no. As in, I defeated him quite a few times when he didn't put Cable up
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> I'm guessing the reason you keep using these vague phrases is
>>because 1) you didn't actually win more than you lost, because you'd
>>say so if you had

>When he played Magneto/Cable/Cyclops, it's probably fair to say that I beat
>him more often than not. When it was OR in front it was about half-and-half.

Dude, I'm not interested in another detailed history of some
mediocre player's characters from the past- you admit below that, overall,
you lose more than you win. Why is this like pulling teeth from you?

>(Slug 16, Seth 6. C'mon, Seth! Go, team, go!)

Again, evidence that you lose = points against Seth. You should
box this game and sell it to foreign kids to insure they grow up as
retarded as the lighting engineers here in America.

>>2) you can't make yourself look any less bad than
>>this, because you have to actually face people who read this stuff and
>>who know you'd be completely full of shit if you ventured out of the
>>land of the vague.

>Uhhh... no. I imagine at least a few folks from the Portland area would be
>arguing with me on this if that were the case. I've spotted at least three
>coming out of lurk mode, only one of whom (Jackson) has _not_ spent the vast
>majority of their time in the arcade with me and an MvC2 machine waiting in
>line.

>(Seth fails to realize that I'm not the only Portland guy who posts here...
>Slug 17, Seth 6.)

??? Fails to realize that you're not the only Portland guy posting
here? That's exactly what I was pointing out re: your inability to
completely bullshit everyone- they're the thing keeping you in check.
Since your accusation of "failure to realize" itself failed to realize
the very obvious, have I parried and countersupered? I deserve a lot
of points back from you and that slug you like.

>>I'm not after numbers here, but you know when
>>you're losing more than winning, and every phrase you use to describe
>>your record is consistent with having mostly lost.

>I'd say that my lifetime record against Jackson is probably somewhere upwards
>of 40%. Probably below 50, yes. The Magneto games, I was beating him as
>much or more than not.

Aside from obscurantist gems like "beating him as much or more
than not", I accept your own optimistically phrased figure of "above"
40%. Or, yes, less pleasantly, below 50%. As in, he beats you, you
lose, you are his bitch, etc. Why is this hard for you to understand?

>(Major misinterpretation of my repeatedly saying that I do just fine overall
>against him. Slug 20, Seth 6.)

So you think that losing the majority of the time is "just fine"?
That's bad tournament advice buddy. I'm afraid you're going to have to,
um, win. Even more than half the time! Again- the slug doesn't score
from your admitting to what I've been saying all along- Jackson beats
you down.

>>big Portland wins don't teach you what you'd learn in an afternoon at a
>>tournament. I'm not kidding either. Ask anyone who's been- they'll tell
>>you it's an invaluable learning experience.

>Oh... you mean like... the guys who I've been playing with pretty much every
>freaking day since B4?

>(Ouch. Slug 25, Seth 6.)

So the slug scores again for agreeing with the point I made?
For vindicating the huge value of tournament experience, the thing I
bag on you for lacking entirely? The slug/you scores on that too?
I guess today is opposite day in your game.

>>You should be trying to track down some
>>of the bounty of footage from B4 rather than blathering on about how
>>to punish people when they fuck up the trap.

>Been watching shoryuken.com like a hawk for some sort of sign, yes.

I'm glad there's finally a site to spoonfeed you what you've
been to lazy to find in the past 7 years.

>(Seth gets some credit here... Slug 25, Seth 10. We're almost down to a
>couple of touchdowns again. There's hope...)

Again, I give advice, you agree, but this time I score. Opposite
day is over I suppose.

>> What about the "*still won*" part? Any confusion there? Does
>>Jackson want to say he was better than anyone who placed above him?

>Nope. But Jackson made him work for it. That's not too bad.

You want to really make someone work for a win? Block the
whole round and superjump. I bet you'll give someone a closer match
than Jackson gave Arturo, who was playing on autopilot half the time.

>(Seth probably gets a field goal for this... Slug 25, Seth 13.)

Again, I score? Is it double opposite day?

>> You still haven't played real players, much less beat anyone.

>If you can make the top 10 at B4, I'd call it a "real player"... and I've
>beaten him. We'll see how I do in the tourney this weekend.

Wow. I've beaten Arturo. Does that make me the man? Hell no
dude. I understand something like a larger picture. Get some perspective
instead of fawning over this tiny connection to a larger world of skills.

>(Probably no score here.)

Double *reverse* opposite day, but maybe I failed to avoid
the Noid?

>Show of hands of people on this newsgroup who would be embarassed by placing
>in the top 10 at B4? Hmmmm?
>Or do they not count as serious players?

The top finishers @ Chicago and B4 would be embarrassed by a finish
like Jackson's, yes. Others may be pleased to have placed in the same
range, but aren't stupid enough to drone on endlessly bragging about it
(or far, far worse- have their vague arcade acquaintances brag about it
(???)). If you'd been to a few tournameents, you'd realize that a placing
like that can fall into your lap from a decent bracket and a few lucky
turns, regardless of your skill. I'm not saying this is what happened
to Jackson- I don't know what his draw was like. It's merely a point
about hte stupidity of bragging about it.

>(Slug 26, Seth 13.)

>Put it together with BH's assist and it makes a decent harassing move and
>meter builder.

>How about a serious answer now? How many times would you say I _should_ use

>it? Believe it or not, I _am_ listening.

You should use it more. Depending on the match/meter, you should
use it a lot more. But you win! Supposing you aren't just exaggerating
again and hoping your buddies don't bust you on it publicly, I'm pleased
to see you using it at all. It's good.
I'm afraid this can't mediate the baffling idiocy of the "Slug"
ordeal, and your general failure to respond, however. But congratulations.
Someday people will accept you as average without hesitation. Not today.
Maybe not tomorrow. But someday...

PS- you are still a scrub.

Seth Killian

[Yangsing]

Throws are cheap...

LOL

[Yangsing]

Stiltman,

You seem to talk about Jackson alot, yet he didn't know who you were. I don't
think you really have the right to talk unless you went to B4 personally and
tested out your "A team."

I've been down to Cali, and also played you personally. Trust me, Rouge can't
get out of the Strider/Doom trap. No one is good with the trap in the
northwest, so you can't really say "Rouge can airdash" or whatever. Since you
don't really have any experience against it.

There's not that much "good" compeition in Portland as you would think. I
would say Jackson IS the only person in the Northwest that probably could
probably hold his own in a major tourney. If you really wanted to prove
yourself, you should've went down to B4.

Simon "Achoo"

[Jinmaster]

If you come to SVGL, I will make sure that Dan, Fluff, and one of the
Cannons will be there to play you.

We won't physically harm you, but if your mental state is below par
after leaving Sunnyvale I hope you don't spring any frivilous lawsuits
on us.

In article <8lke2p$cfs$1...@user2.teleport.com>,
stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:

> In article <8livr3$op4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

> Julien B Beasley <j...@my-deja.com> wrote:

> >In article <8lib1p$c5g$1...@user2.teleport.com>,
> > stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:

> >> >As everyone knows, A beats B, B beats C, thus A beats C logic
never works.
>
> >> That's true. OTOH, a couple of weeks ago someone commented to me
that they'd
> >> rather play Jackson than me because, even though both of us
basically own the
> >> guy, against Jackson the guy at least figures he'll manage to win
one game in
> >> eight, whereas I pretty much never give up fluke wins.
>

> >Do you realize you've just used the ABC logic again? Here you say
that
> >you are more likely to trash this guy than Jackson.
>
> And, by the same token, I also just said that just because Jackson
beats me
> _slightly_ more often than not, it doesn't necessarily mean that
he'll beat
> someone else more often than I will.
>
> Which is, of course, the actual point I was attempting to make.
>
> >Are we to infer from this that you're somehow better than him?
>
> No. I've said myself that I don't consider myself better than him.
>

> >>*shrugs*
> >> At any rate (tm)... Jackson was willing to use the term "top 10"
to describe
> >> his performance at B4, Sanchez gave generally glowing remarks
about the guy's
> >> ability, and Jackson isn't _that_ far ahead of me or a couple of
other guys
> >> in Portland -- if at all.
>

> >Again, you use the same twisted ABC logic. Sanchez said Jackson
doesn't
> >suck, and you say he beats you, and you hold this to mean that you
> >don't suck? Sorry, doesn't hold water.
>
> Aha! NOW I see what my problem is! I suck so bad that I can't even
tell
> how I'm doing against someone in my own arcade as well as somebody in
Illinois
> or Boston! Screw this "first hand knowledge" stuff, what was I
thinking?
> Who am I to tell guys two or three thousand miles away how I fare
against
> somebody in my own home town? Geez, what have I been smoking?
>

> >>I am indeed a rather competitive person and try to do the best I
can and tend
> >> to seek out the best competition that I can conveniently find...
but
> >> ultimately, my devotion to the game is not enough that I'm really
willing
> >> to rearrange the rest of my life around it, certainly not to the
extent
> >> that a number of folks around these circles have done.
>

> >> That said, word has it that I might meet a friend who's headed
Cali-ward
> >> in the next couple of weeks, so if the Cali players want the
chance to
> >> spank me down they just get it. :)
>

> >And what, they'll have to drive out and meet you in your hotel to
have
> >a chance to play the vaunted stiltman? Please. You'll play no one
> >because you don't have to guts to show up anywhere.
>

> Actually, I'm likely to fire an email in Spider-Dan's direction (if
he doesn't
> see this, that is) to find out when people who can actually find
Cable on the
> selection screen without a roadmap tend to show up at SVGL... _if_
it's not
> too expensive to make the extra time for it amidst everything else I
want to
> do down there. I'll be meeting two friends down there (one in Sac-
town, the
> other in San Jose) who mean a bit more to me than the game, but if I
can
> scrape up the credit card room I just might make time for it.
>

> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
> http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
> < We are Microsoft Borg '98. Lower your expectations and >
> < surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
> < Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
> < technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
> < will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
>

--
Homepage for Marvel Vs. Capcom I and
II:http://www.geocities.com/therealjinmaster/
Homepage for Starcraft:
http://www.geocities.com/therealjinmaster/starcraft/intro.html

[Stilt Man]

In article <lynf5.3621$Il3....@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,

seth james killian <skil...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) writes:

>>That wasn't by lack of effort to pin their silly ears to the wall and get them
>>and an arcade together to actually get it done. I spoke on the phone a time
>>or three with Omni but never got the chance to get together with him because
>>our respective schedules kept us apart while we were there.

> Yeah. I'm sure. Just like your schedule for the last 7 years has
>been too full to manage a moment away as well, right?

Okay. This is a discrete event, so I can give you a more concrete answer.

I posted a message here on this newsgroup stating that I was going to be in
Indianapolis and asking if I could find a game with anyone there who might
know the game from Pit Fighter. Omni answered me by email, but the weekend
I was arriving happened to be the same weekend as the big Midwest tourney.
I told him that if I was still in town I'd call him afterwards and try to
set something up. He gave me a phone number, I carried it with me in my
jacket.

The Monday night after the tournament, I didn't get back to my hotel until
10:30 PM. (Long story... our contact there gave my boss the bright idea that
it was a good idea to park in a no-parking zone at our job site because he'd
"been doing it all week" and the job site chose that day to tow everything
in sight, including their general contractor's car.) The Tuesday night, I
called him the instant I got back, and invited him to meet somewhere, having
already found both of the allegedly functioning MvC2 machines he described
to me in the email exchange and generally found the competition lacking.
He said he'd already made plans that night and, if I was still going to be
in town on Wednesday, to try again because that should be better. I called
again Wednesday, couldn't get anything but an answering machine, left a
message, and did not receive a return call. I shipped out of Indy at 6 AM
Thursday morning with a few regrets that we hadn't managed to pull it off.

I made a serious effort to the best of my ability to make it happen. The
fact that it didn't was not due to any failure on my end.

[Stilt Man]

In article <20000725190154...@ng-md1.aol.com>,

Yangsing <yang...@aol.com> wrote:
>You seem to talk about Jackson alot, yet he didn't know who you were.

That's because people asked him if he knew "Stilt Man" and no one who knows
me purely off line (as Jackson did until after B4; he didn't put the "Stilt
Man" alias together with me until after the tourney) knows me by that name.

>I don't
>think you really have the right to talk unless you went to B4 personally and
>tested out your "A team."

Possibly not the right to talk from much direct authority, no.

>I've been down to Cali, and also played you personally. Trust me, Rouge can't
>get out of the Strider/Doom trap. No one is good with the trap in the
>northwest, so you can't really say "Rouge can airdash" or whatever. Since you
>don't really have any experience against it.

Well, this goes into a little bit of instinct as to how the newsgroup tends
to work. No one in this place will answer with much that's even remotely
useful if you just nod, act like you're in awe of everyone, and ask stupid
questions. (I don't know if even what I say is particularly useful, but I
try.) As it is, I get a few ideas of what people are doing so if and when
someone imports it to our place, I won't be taken completely by surprise
by it.

So your job is to get good doing it yourself, and see if I beat you any less
badly than I do now. ;)

>There's not that much "good" compeition in Portland as you would think. I
>would say Jackson IS the only person in the Northwest that probably could
>probably hold his own in a major tourney. If you really wanted to prove
>yourself, you should've went down to B4.

Yes, yes, people were telling me I should've, because they thought I probably
would have done all right. Maybe not actually won (heck, _I_ don't expect
I would've won, when I set the 'tude aside and talk seriously) but I probably
wouldn't have gotten completely shamed. I seriously considered going, and
if I'd had more money at my disposal that particular month, I would've. The
fact that I'm going down to Cali here in a couple of weeks has more to do with
close friends being there all at once and, more to the point as to why I'm
going now when I couldn't go to B4, Visa just cranked a bunch more cash into
my credit limit... so strictly speaking, I'm still spending money I don't have
in order to go, I just "have" a little more of it. :)

I'll see if I can't run across a few Sac or bay area players and see how I do.

[James M]

It pains me to side with Seth and Jules but Stilt you need to
quit while you are not even further behind. Look, you have a
wife, a kid, a steady busy job - understandably you don't have
the time and freedom to make SF play a top priority. In the
overall "game of life" you might be doing pretty well, so you
shouldn't have to manufacture MvC2 skills...

You have an excuse to suck. You have crap competition. The end.
There is no need to get defensive about it, but there is also no
need to even *pretend* you know the first thing about the game.
The bottom line is that without competition or tournaments to
give any frame of reference you have no basis for comparison and
are prone to overestimating your own ability. When the game was
new, you were at about the same point as everyone else. But as
time has passed you are now *way* behind any of the hot areas -
that's just the way it works. (You might notice that as time has
gone on I have posted less and less because I realize that I
can't keep up with the better areas and am way behind at this
point)

And finally, if you are going to claim things like Rogue's
ability at this and that, you are going to *have* to back it up
somehow. Rogue is a heavy hitter? Heavier than who? More mobile?
Than who? The fact is that Rogue does no more damage than half
the cast. A common Stiltism: "she can follow up a solid hit on
the ground with a high damage combo." Well, who the hell can't?
Rogue is better at getting out of the Strider/Doom trap than
some others? Who?

Rogue has no safe block damage attacks, average damage, slightly
above average durability, average assists, a forward only air
dash, severly limited options on the ground, zero long range
game, and a dive kick. Did I miss anything? You frequently talk
about "staying on people" and somehow tearing them up. How is
this happening? With an average dash, weak attacks that have
average range and priority, no safe block damage and average
combo ability? How in the world is she any better at staying on
people than anyone else?

Just keep (dive) kicking them?

James M

-----------------------------------------------------------

Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.

Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com

[seth james killian]

stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) writes:

>> Yeah. I'm sure. Just like your schedule for the last 7 years has
>>been too full to manage a moment away as well, right?

>Okay. This is a discrete event, so I can give you a more concrete answer.

[explanation deleted]

The only reason I mentioned your failing to hook up with any
real players was to disqualify your even having mentioned Indianapolis
on your sorry list of "places you've played SF". The reasons as to
precisely *why* you failed to hook up are irrelevant from this
perspective.
However, your having mentioned them again makes you look like the
CEO of weak.com. Your primary obstacle to hooking up with Derek was that
he was at the *Midwest Championships*??? So there you were, a few short
hours from a giant concentration of the best players, and it's just totally
out of the question that you drive up? You could have even done so with
your precious anonymity intact. What- you might not have gotten enough
sleep that night? Jeezus. After being pointedly contact-averse for years,
an opportunity like that falls into your lap, and you can't pull the trigger.
Yeah- I can tell how serious you are about all of this. And don't give me any
shit about what an impoverished sob story you are, and couldn't afford it.
Gas would be like 25$, and it's 2$ to get into the arcade. You can flophouse
with just about anyone if you're truly a hard luck case. Hell, next time
I'll spot you myself.

>I made a serious effort to the best of my ability to make it happen. The
>fact that it didn't was not due to any failure on my end.

One unreturned phonecall during a random business trip does not
excuse years of doing nothing. "Did your best". Please, spare us your
additional excuses, and let's hope the man who spends 10+ hours a week
at the arcade can spare some of his precious time and the 5$ to play
someone decent.

Seth Killian

[Julien B Beasley]

In article <vhlf5.101$y3.2283@uchinews>,

sol...@midway.uchicago.edu (sol t kim) wrote:
> Hey, Julien, what's up?
> Where's that Japanese report coming? We are all dying to know how
> Japanese play MvC2...

I haven't really checked out the MvC2 scene (if there even is one).
MvC1 was pretty unpopular over here. I'll look this weekend and see if
I can find it being played competitively.

[EC]

On 25 Jul 2000 16:52:45 -0700, stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man)
wrote:

>In article <lynf5.3621$Il3....@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,

>seth james killian <skil...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) writes:

>>>That wasn't by lack of effort to pin their silly ears to the wall and get them
>>>and an arcade together to actually get it done. I spoke on the phone a time
>>>or three with Omni but never got the chance to get together with him because
>>>our respective schedules kept us apart while we were there.
>
>> Yeah. I'm sure. Just like your schedule for the last 7 years has
>>been too full to manage a moment away as well, right?
>

>Okay. This is a discrete event, so I can give you a more concrete answer.
>

>I posted a message here on this newsgroup stating that I was going to be in
>Indianapolis and asking if I could find a game with anyone there who might
>know the game from Pit Fighter. Omni answered me by email, but the weekend
>I was arriving happened to be the same weekend as the big Midwest tourney.
>I told him that if I was still in town I'd call him afterwards and try to
>set something up. He gave me a phone number, I carried it with me in my
>jacket.
>
>The Monday night after the tournament, I didn't get back to my hotel until
>10:30 PM. (Long story... our contact there gave my boss the bright idea that
>it was a good idea to park in a no-parking zone at our job site because he'd
>"been doing it all week" and the job site chose that day to tow everything
>in sight, including their general contractor's car.) The Tuesday night, I
>called him the instant I got back, and invited him to meet somewhere, having
>already found both of the allegedly functioning MvC2 machines he described
>to me in the email exchange and generally found the competition lacking.
>He said he'd already made plans that night and, if I was still going to be
>in town on Wednesday, to try again because that should be better. I called
>again Wednesday, couldn't get anything but an answering machine, left a
>message, and did not receive a return call. I shipped out of Indy at 6 AM
>Thursday morning with a few regrets that we hadn't managed to pull it off.
>

>I made a serious effort to the best of my ability to make it happen. The
>fact that it didn't was not due to any failure on my end.
>

Well all I can say to this is.. BULLSHIT. I was in Indy that weekend,
due to personal reasons I couldn't attend the midwest tourney, (I was
moving back to NY that weekend from Indy) and was upset I wouldn't
get a chance to hook up with Tin or Omni that weekend, BUT I did post
to the NG when you said you would be in town, and would have played
you, I mention when I would be there and asked if you would be, I
heard nothing in return. I may not be able to hang with Omni or Tin in
ST, but in at least in 3S (the only other game I played against either
one, I split with them, Derek or Tin could tell you I'm no scrub and
this is the first time I am hearing that you were in Indy that
weekend. I knew you posted you were going and I replied that I would
be there THAT weekend and to let me know.......

In fact I know it posted cause Derek replied to me on the NG, and
Magius told me that they had it a hour north - any of this sounding
vaguely familiar? In any case I spent sat. afternoon downtown beating
on scrubs in the arcade. Anyone who even thought they might have been
some comp would have been very welcome.

Erik

PS Stilt, it would be best to quit now before you go into hiding for 6
months or so - like after the just keep kicking him thread.

[Sabin]

In article <lynf5.3621$Il3....@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,

skil...@students.uiuc.edu (seth james killian) wrote:
> stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) writes:
>

LOL.

Is this the same Seth Killian that I know?

Haha....you're too funny online...Seth dropping elbows on fools...hahaha
I was at work when I read that, and I started laughing so hard, my
coworkers were staring at me hella weird - like WTF, is he on crack or
something?

Too funny...

[Dakong1234]

i dont even know whats going on... but is this stilt man guy butt buddys with
this jackson guy or something?? or whats goin on?? =/

[Chocobo]

seth james killian wrote:

> However, your having mentioned them again makes you look like the CEO of
> weak.com.

Did you know that Michael Eisner is the CEO of weak.com, which is owned by Disney?
Just a tidbit of information I felt like sharing.

In future reference to anyone on this newsgroup, please keep in mind that if Seth
Killian posts something contradictory to what you say, you are wrong. Embarrassing
messes like this current thread could be avoided... you don't want to be the next
Stilt Man.

[Greg Young]

> This rare insight into how
> the mind of Stilt "keeps score" is proving invaluable.

It's interesting that this may also be the same method he uses to keep score in his
matches against the Portland locals (especially Jackson). For all we know, he
could be (and probably is) getting his ass handed to him by everybody in the
Portland area... but we can't tell because his scoring system is simply another
representation of how vague and obscure he can be.

It's the overdrive,
Greg

[Stilt Man]

In article <1Orf5.3651$Il3....@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,

seth james killian <skil...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) writes:

>>> Yeah. I'm sure. Just like your schedule for the last 7 years has
>>>been too full to manage a moment away as well, right?

>>Okay. This is a discrete event, so I can give you a more concrete answer.

> [explanation deleted]

> The only reason I mentioned your failing to hook up with any
>real players was to disqualify your even having mentioned Indianapolis
>on your sorry list of "places you've played SF". The reasons as to
>precisely *why* you failed to hook up are irrelevant from this
>perspective.

> However, your having mentioned them again makes you look like the

>CEO of weak.com. Your primary obstacle to hooking up with Derek was that
>he was at the *Midwest Championships*??? So there you were, a few short
>hours from a giant concentration of the best players, and it's just totally
>out of the question that you drive up?

Under the circumstances, yes. I was meeting a friend halfway from Cleveland
in Indy that weekend (my boss permitted me to leave early for the trip in
order to make this possible), I was only barely able to scrape up the dough
just to do _that_ much, and I had no realistic expectation that this person
would want to spend one of our few opportunities to meet one another in
person in Chicago watching me play at a tournament. I was not aware until
that same week that the tournament was going on at all, I wasn't aware even
that the tournament in question was that big until after the fact, and I
ultimately didn't (and don't) care.

You're right. I'm _not_ really all that serious of a player, at least as
compared to you or a number of other people. I don't travel much at all;
I'm a fairly reclusive person by nature. I poke at people in here in hopes
of occasionally scraping up the odd clue as to what's happening at arcades
around the country and what I might have to watch for if any of it gets
"imported". Sometimes I play devil's advocate (or outright troll) for such
things, and yeah, sometimes that really irritates people. But in the end,
no, I'm _not_ really willing to go far out of my way to play. And I ultimately
wasn't in Indy for gaming, I was there for a friend.

[Yangsing]

>This was a problem, as people look at you strangely
>when you walk out of the bathroom with a red wet face and a huge grin.

Lol....happen alot?

[Psyduck228]

This is just one big joke post.

Stiltman I have never played a serious game with you, we play on some of the
worst controllers anybody can imagine, they are lose as hell. worse than the
one they had at gameroom before the B4 tournament(the one with the lose button)
I can get a AHVB about half the time, and recently I can't even get half
circles on the anymore, and I have trouble air dashing. You don't believe me,
ask anybody that plays there, Simon (yangsing) played, there he can tell you,
and Karl couldn't play spiral cuz he couldn't ever reload his knives.

Truth is there is no competition around Portland, and it shows, I haven't seen
half the stuff they did at B4, and nobody can do the strider/doom trap, and I
have never seen it before B4, the strider stuff here is more like teleport hope
you block the wrong way.

Had there been a decent amount of competition here, and perhaps somebody
showing me the strider/doom trap, things might have went a little differently,
but this tournament was all about learning, I'll sure to be at the next big
tournament to see how far I'll get.

Thanks Aturo for considering me to be good, I know we are at different levels
on MVC2, but next time I'll put up more of a challenge.

Hey spider-dan thanks for that disc, but does it play burned games?

Jackson

[James M]

stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:

That's fine, but if you really are looking for the odd clue why
don't you just listen instead of disputing what everyone who has
competition says is true? Rather than look out for "imported"
strategies, your main thrust seems to be telling people in the
know that said strategies don't work.

James M

>You're right. I'm _not_ really all that serious of a player,
at least as
>compared to you or a number of other people. I don't travel
much at all;
>I'm a fairly reclusive person by nature. I poke at people in
here in hopes
>of occasionally scraping up the odd clue as to what's happening
at arcades
>around the country and what I might have to watch for if any of
it gets
>"imported". Sometimes I play devil's advocate (or outright
troll) for such
>things, and yeah, sometimes that really irritates people. But
in the end,
>no, I'm _not_ really willing to go far out of my way to play.
And I ultimately

>wasn't in Indy for gaming, I was there for a friend.

[Stilt Man]

In article <097bd440...@usw-ex0101-007.remarq.com>,

James M <jsm16N...@cornell.edu.invalid> wrote:
>That's fine, but if you really are looking for the odd clue why
>don't you just listen instead of disputing what everyone who has
>competition says is true? Rather than look out for "imported"
>strategies, your main thrust seems to be telling people in the
>know that said strategies don't work.

I'm playing devil's advocate, because "just listening" is generally pretty
useless in here. My experience in here, if I've failed to learn anything
else, is that one generally does not get a real idea of WHY something works
or how to do it or what one might be able to do about it by "just listening".
No one ever gives _details_.

As someone elsewhere has said in the thread, it's not enough to just fire
off the orbs and call Doom. I've figured that much out by now -- no one
in Portland has, over time, been able to beat me more often than not using
this strategy. I'm not under any delusions that this means that the strategy
itself is really that good. But if that means that the people I'm beating
who try it can't do it right, then if I'm going to prepare for eventually
running into it (Simon and Brian seem to be working half seriously on it)
then I want to know a detail or two. The only thing you get on this NG if
you don't prod at folks is "Strider/Doom is AWESOM, DOOD!" or comments of
roughly equivalent usefulness.

So I prod. I poke. And sometimes I even troll (as I've been doing to Seth
on this thread, in case it weren't mind-numbingly obvious). Yeah, it gets
me into trouble in terms of earning much good will... but I've heard a few
more specifics in this thread than most anything I've seen come through
here in quite some time. I'll take a little public abuse for that.

And, to some degree, I'm seeking to establish just how far out in the woods
Portland really is here. Do I really think that we're going to produce the
next Alex Valle? _Probably_ not. But, by the same token, it doesn't seem
even now like Jackson got completely embarassed just showing up at B4, even
if he didn't exactly threaten to win. In that, I have a bit of hope, and
after a few more (irate) perspectives on the matter I have a rough idea of
where Portland is on the map. If I can make something happen when I go to
Cali myself, I'll have an even better idea. I'll take a little public abuse
for that, too. And, as I've said privately in email... I don't _really_
expect that I wouldn't lose more often than not down there. If I can at
least manage to throw a few curve balls, I'll be happy, and other than that
I'd expect to learn more than win. I'll settle for that. :)

[tortoise]

stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:

>The only thing you get on this NG if
>you don't prod at folks is "Strider/Doom is AWESOM, DOOD!" or
comments of
>roughly equivalent usefulness.
>
>So I prod.

You can just ask. No offense intended
as I have nothing against you, but sometimes
I think you take the hard way out when a simple
question or two would do the trick.

Oh and Stilt, your email isn't working.

Matt
mgreer[at]artic.edu

"And if your dog or cat ever dies, I'll buy you a ewe."

-----------------------------------------------------------

[AK]

Stilt Man (stil...@user2.teleport.com) wrote:
: useless in here. My experience in here, if I've failed to learn anything

: else, is that one generally does not get a real idea of WHY something works
: or how to do it or what one might be able to do about it by "just listening".
: No one ever gives _details_.

Part of the fun, as I see it anyways, is to get vague details and try it
out myself. Sure, some particular combos need exact written details, but
strategies generally can't be put on paper. And when people try, that's
when you see long-ass 35-msg long threads about people arguing over
situations that have far too many variables.

I find the best way to use any info you come across in text is to try it
yourself to an extent. If people say Strider/Doom is good, rather than
blow it off as being full of holes, *play* strider/doom yourself and try
to get it down . See what people are talking about.

Don't be so ready to shut things down just because you haven't seen other
people use it successfully in your area, or more importantly because you
haven't bothered to try it yourself.

eg.
This is why a lot of people come in and have said Rogue has some major
issues... she's been tried out and many strategies found(I even used to
think she was really good if you see my posts from a while back), but she
lacks in some areas that she can't possibly make up for with assists.

--
AK

[Stilt Man]

In article <20000726134755...@ng-bg1.aol.com>,

Psyduck228 <psydu...@aol.com> wrote:
>This is just one big joke post.

A number of mine in this thread have been, yes.

>Stiltman I have never played a serious game with you, we play on some of the
>worst controllers anybody can imagine, they are lose as hell.

Oh, please, Jackson... sure, they're loose, but (until the last couple or
three days or so) they've been fully functional. When I was in college
in my SF2 days I _regularly_ saw sticks that were in worse shape than those,
to a degree that half of playing the game well was learning what the sticks
and buttons would let you actually execute. The sticks at Lloyd have
consistently worked better than the vast majority of Capcom fighters' sticks
I've seen in the whole time I've been playing the damn games.

You think those controls are in bad shape, you should see the alleged control
up in VanMall. Half the time I've gone up there, one or the other control
set is just plain unserviceable, e.g. one of the last couple of times I went,
you couldn't call in assists with either button on one side if you had a
meter because they were shorted together, so if you hit an assist button with
a meter you'd get a group super out of it. At the Putt-Putt in Indy, one
of the sticks was completely unable to perform any sort of charge move, and
one button on each side was either unreliable or completely shot. If you
said much, they'd just sort of write it down and promise to get on it halfway
soon, whereas at Lloyd you can usually expect it to get fixed pretty damn
quick.

So don't sit here and tell me the controls at Lloyd suck. I've had a fair
number of sticks and button sets in my hands, and the ones there are now (and
pretty much always have been) better than 98% of the ones I've played on,
both during and since the time you actually worked there yourself. In the
last couple of days, sure, that one on the left is a little worn, but over
the life of the machine those things have generally been perfectly
operational. I can't think of more than maybe one or two places I've ever
played at where the sticks get more attention on maintenance. Loose,
yes... shot, no.

>Truth is there is no competition around Portland, and it shows, I haven't seen
>half the stuff they did at B4, and nobody can do the strider/doom trap, and I
>have never seen it before B4, the strider stuff here is more like teleport hope
>you block the wrong way.

_This_ much, I can agree with to a certain degree if "competition" is defined
as "Cali-level competition". We're not in Cali's league here, no. I don't
have a great deal of delusion on that point. We're better than your average
backwoods arcade, though.

>Had there been a decent amount of competition here, and perhaps somebody
>showing me the strider/doom trap, things might have went a little differently,
>but this tournament was all about learning, I'll sure to be at the next big
>tournament to see how far I'll get.

Good luck when you do.

[Stilt Man]

In article <0a6942d4...@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com>,

tortoise <mgreerN...@artic.edu.invalid> wrote:
>stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:
>>The only thing you get on this NG if
>>you don't prod at folks is "Strider/Doom is AWESOM, DOOD!" or comments of
>>roughly equivalent usefulness.

>>So I prod.

>You can just ask. No offense intended
>as I have nothing against you, but sometimes
>I think you take the hard way out when a simple
>question or two would do the trick.

Just asking doesn't typically work real well, either. Most of the people
who know what they're talking about ignore it.

[tortoise]

stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:

>Just asking doesn't typically work real well, either. Most of
the people
>who know what they're talking about ignore it.
>

Oh come on. You're just making excuses.
Practically my sole reason for being on this
NG is to ask questions. I get all kinds of help
from several people who are quite qualified.

It's pretending you're an excellent player and
getting in everyone's faces that gets you a lot
more grief than info.

[Sabin]

In article <20000726134755...@ng-bg1.aol.com>,

psydu...@aol.com (Psyduck228) wrote:
> This is just one big joke post.
>

> Stiltman I have never played a serious game with you,

And there you have it. I was waiting for a post like this.. Even
Jackson says you are not that great - he admits to toying with you.

I've talked to Yandsing on IRC as well, he says he has seen you getting
owned by Jackson (15+ streak) and has also witnessed you being owned by
mall scrubs.

Stilt, please, stop this right now. I haven't really jumped on this
thread because I don't like bombing on people for the most part (read:
I think you're soooo wrong about what you've been saying) - and
besides, Seth already said all I would have said on this particular
topic.

Also, I suggest you get yourself down to SVGL or SHGL in the upcoming
weeks/months to see what MVC2 is all about. Seriously. You'd learn a
LOT...the Golfland players are WAAAAY too good.

It surprises me to see how Jackson could get so good w/out any comp, as
well. Been practicing on your DC, eh, Jackson? :P

[Sabin]

In article <8lisub$mr9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

Julien B Beasley <j...@my-deja.com> wrote:

> Hey great report!!

>
> There was a stabbing in the back of the Oak Tree in 93 over street
> fighter. Throws are cheap...
>
> Julien
>

Hey Julien!

Hahaha...yeah, that sounds like the same exact Oak Tree I went to...
Oak Tree is so ghetto, they can't even afford a DDR machine (weak)
their monitors are messed up, etc...

You scoping out the SF scene in Japan for the USA Team, Julien? You're
our secret spy :P Get some footage man!

[Stilt Man]

In article <8lnhi8$53r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Sabin <ai...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <20000726134755...@ng-bg1.aol.com>,
> psydu...@aol.com (Psyduck228) wrote:
>> This is just one big joke post.

>> Stiltman I have never played a serious game with you,

>And there you have it. I was waiting for a post like this.. Even
>Jackson says you are not that great - he admits to toying with you.

I have my doubts that he's been outright _toying_ with me. I've had my bad
streaks against him, but the reverse has also been true at times.

>I've talked to Yandsing on IRC as well, he says he has seen you getting
>owned by Jackson (15+ streak) and has also witnessed you being owned by
>mall scrubs.

I had a bad time with Jackson just prior to B4, which is probably the event
he's talking about. I haven't had a terribly rough time holding it close
to 50% before or since, though.

As for the "mall scrubs" bit... once in a very great while when I'm not taking
people seriously I'll get thrown for a loop, but on the balance Jackson is the
only player there who has beaten me more often than not in the last five months
or so. (Yangsing himself has beaten me in all of one game in that time.)

>Also, I suggest you get yourself down to SVGL or SHGL in the upcoming
>weeks/months to see what MVC2 is all about. Seriously. You'd learn a
>LOT...the Golfland players are WAAAAY too good.

Oh, I'm aware that I'd probably get stomped there, yeah. I intend to go and
find a thing or three out, yes.

[sol t kim]

In article <8lnega$t0b$1...@user2.teleport.com>,
Stilt Man <stil...@user2.teleport.com> wrote:

<snip>

But Stiltman-many people in this NG don't simply repeat after the others.
As you may have noticed, many of them attend tourney regularly-or knows
someone who does. They are not just repeating after thier idol player as
you seem to implicate-They know thier shit, and that's WHY they get upset
when YOU, who don't go to tournament and who haven't even seen, say,
Strider/Doom trap properly excuted, try to convince people of your
sayings. They have been there, seen it. You haven't. Yet you stubbornly
play 'devil's advocate' on an empty ground. You may be able to avoid
the trap in your local arcdade, when the best players in the nation
can't. What does that imply? That you are a better player than
the best players? Obviously it's not Rogue, it's not you, it's your local
competition, in which case your entire arguements and 100pages long posts
come to nothing. People are not interested in finding out how to avoid
the trap done by your local competition. Still You say with air
dash and super jump with Rogue can avoid Strider/Doom trap. You
persist that Rogue can beat the trap. People KNOW that shit does not work
at the high level of play.

Chocobo saying that he has to see it to believe it-fine. I felt the same
way before I saw it myself. Claiming on the NG that your favorite
character beats it without actually seeing it done-no.

Please Stiltman, stop.
--

[Lupid]

The only people that can get out of the trap are those who can
both run away like a slut, and instant super you like a slut,
eg. Storm. The break in blockstun is small but you have time to
SJ if they throw a tiger or hit them with like a lightning
attack or litterbox kick if they throw the bird. All that needs
to be done to stop Rogue is to never throw the bird, she can SJ,
and you can stand right there waiting for her one-way airdash to
come down. It'll be at the end of the Ouro, but you get a free
Doom call, and more than enough time to start another Ouro. Oh,
and btw, Cable/Sentinel/BH owns me. That is all.

[sol t kim]

In article <1d74d1f1...@usw-ex0103-019.remarq.com>,

Lupid <big-t-mone...@bombdiggity.com.invalid> wrote:
>eg. Storm. The break in blockstun is small but you have time to
>SJ if they throw a tiger or hit them with like a lightning
>attack or litterbox kick if they throw the bird.

I watched John Choi do the trap in Chicago, and there didn't seem to be
gap enough to SJ or lightning super...by the time the second tiger gets
cancelled into Oroborus, you are still blocking rocks...unless I missed
something.
--

[seth james killian]

stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) writes:

>>Stiltman I have never played a serious game with you, we play on some of the
>>worst controllers anybody can imagine, they are lose as hell.

>Oh, please, Jackson... sure, they're loose, but (until the last couple or
>three days or so) they've been fully functional. When I was in college

>in my SF2 days...

(Stilt's fascinating story of *even more* broken sticks
deleted with extreme prejudice)

I'm beginning to think you're trying to weasel out of the amazing
hole you've dug for yourself in this thread by boring everyone to death.
"And then, back in 92, there was ole Bessie- she was a whopper of a
controller- pulled a bit to the left as I recall, but you could belt out
the fireballs let me tell you! I was wearing an onion on my belt, which
was the style at the time..." WTF. You're clearly deep in a world of
make-believe, but shocking though it may be- not everyone's endlessly
fascinated by the insignificant, uninformative, boring minutae of your
gaming experience.

>>Truth is there is no competition around Portland, and it shows, I haven't seen
>>half the stuff they did at B4, and nobody can do the strider/doom trap, and I
>>have never seen it before B4, the strider stuff here is more like teleport hope
>>you block the wrong way.

>_This_ much, I can agree with to a certain degree if "competition" is defined
>as "Cali-level competition". We're not in Cali's league here, no. I don't
>have a great deal of delusion on that point. We're better than your average
>backwoods arcade, though.

Even though you've entirely shifted gears into relatively humble
mode here, you *still* don't know what the fuck you're talking about. "We're
not in Cali's league"? Aside from the fact that that's extremely true, how
the fuck do *you* know that? You don't. You have no idea. You've never
played a Cali player in your life. In aid of your continued, sad attempt
to hop on Jackson's bandwagon, I also notice you're now referring to
yourself as "we're", implying the presence of a mythological scene,
and in response to the post where Jackson already turned you out as not
even being serious competition for him, too. You are shameless, dude.
"don't have a great deal of delusion"- Lol. You have, and have had for
many years, nothing *but* delusions (sometimes of grandeur, lately of
humility). For the past 7 years, delusion has been your sad
substitute for a woeful lack of experience.
And better than your average backwoods arcade? Again- who knows?
Answer: not you. You haven't even made a reasonably extensive tour of
backwoods arcades. You know *nothing*. You can't even assess your
own performance relative to a guy you've played a lot: you make Jackson
and yourself out to be locked in some kind of epic struggle for control
of the mall arcade, and he turns you out as a very small order of fries-
not even serious competition. And you continue asking us to accept
your delusional assessments of your place in the national order of
things? You are again revealed as a terrible braying ass. Can
you stop yourself from doing it again? Somehow I doubt it...

Seth Killian

[Falconer]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:22:48 -0700, Falconer looked out from Castle
Ouroburos and spotted James M <jsm16N...@cornell.edu.invalid>
causing trouble. Frowning, Falconer set off to investigate...

>How in the world is she any better at staying on people than
>anyone else?
>
>Just keep (dive) kicking them?

______________________________

I feel old. I remember reading the post that the original piece of
'sage advice' came from. Not during a visit to Dejanews either. I'll
admit I can't tell you what month, or even what year, it's from, but I
do remember it.

Perhaps I've mumbled into a tangent long enough.

[psydu...@my-deja.com]

Hey Arturo whats your ICQ number, I need to ask you how to get that
Strider/Doom trap to work properly. My ICQ # is 64329109.

[Julien B Beasley]

Ugh, Stiltman. Everyone from your own arcade is showing up and posting
that you're nothing special. Even your hero (who you've greatly
embarrassed in this thread) is asking you to shut up.

Please stop. I'm just cringing reading this. I've never seen anyone
make such a fool out of themselves on this group, and I've been here a
damn long time. It's stopped being funny and is now just sad.

Everyone who's ever been to a large tourney has said it was an eye-
opening experience. Everyone. Even the most cocky trash talkers this
group has ever seen nicely shut up after going to a tournament. So go
to a tournament, be wowed and then we can all laugh about how stupid we
all once were. But until that day, please just shut up. Stop making
excuses, stop pretending that you're just asking for information in
your special way. Stop butting into threads with your uninformed
opinions. Just shut up. Please. Now. Don't reply to this.

Thank you,

Julien

[Greg Young]

> As for the "mall scrubs" bit... once in a very great while when I'm not taking
> people seriously I'll get thrown for a loop, but on the balance Jackson is the
> only player there who has beaten me more often than not in the last five months
> or so.

It would seem to me that you are part of the "mall scrubs" lot. The only person
who would not be a "mall scrub" would be Jackson. He's the best one in your area
and he went to B4. Usually that's how it works in areas where competition is
scarce - one guy isolated from any competition other than a bunch of "mall
scrubs". In this case, you are part of the group that Jackson uses as punching
bag. Whatever he learned at B4, he'll be practicing on you and everybody else
there.

Greg

[seth james killian]

stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) writes:

>I'm playing devil's advocate, because "just listening" is generally pretty

>useless in here. My experience in here, if I've failed to learn anything
>else, is that one generally does not get a real idea of WHY something works
>or how to do it or what one might be able to do about it by "just listening".
>No one ever gives _details_.

The above is a blatant lie designed as a cover story for
your terrifying ignorance (revealed yet again), and an obvious one
at that. The world's most relentlessly vague poster was after
*details* the whole time? The reason some questions go
entirely unanswered is for exactly that reason: they're too
vague. Esp. in a Vs game, where there's a hell of a lot of
stuff on the screen, tons of possible character positions, etc-
a vauge question is just a pain to try and answer. The questions
that get answered are the one's specific enough not to require a
book just to establish the scenario.
So supposing your additional bullshit up top there were true,
you'd be even stupider than we've already established that you are.
"If you're going to make something up, Williamson, make sure it
helps. Never open your mouth unless you know the shot."
But just so you don't go away empty handed- here's the
question you want to ask (since you can piece the basics of the
trap together from old posts): "After I've cancelled dog/bird
into oro and fired off a ring or two, when should I be calling
Doom? What is the timing of Doom calls relative to the time
meter on the Oro?", etc. You see? Unfortunately, it takes a
tiny bit of intelligence and a trip out of the world of make-
believe to make that happen.

>As someone elsewhere has said in the thread, it's not enough to just fire
>off the orbs and call Doom. I've figured that much out by now --

As "someone" said? It was me, you jackass, and you know it.
And you've "figured out that much by now"? That's exactly what you
*haven't* done. You've been going on in this thread and (at length)
before about how you'd *seen* the trap- you still haven't seen a
better version, and you don't understand (even on paper) how to
improve the shitty version your locals cooked up. So tell me again-
what did you "figure out"? You were spoonfed, and like the fussy
baby you are, it's taken us this long to jam it down your throat
and make you swallow.

>So I prod. I poke. And sometimes I even troll (as I've been doing to Seth
>on this thread, in case it weren't mind-numbingly obvious).

Man, the bottom dropped out of my stomach when I read that one...
*I've* been being trolled this whole time? Oh man! How could I have been
so stupid! He's been drawing me into an elaborate trap... I keep busting
you out for being a kids meal with a huge fucking mouth, and only now do
I learn that (someday real soon!) it's all going to be turned back around
on me, when he completes the final stage of his archly clever master plan!
Give it up nitwit. You are a scrub, who thought he had game. At least a
little game. If your bullshit and lies weren't enough, your local
friends' testimony has cemented your pants around your ankles. Now
go home before I administer the Rear Admiral.

Yeah, it gets
>me into trouble in terms of earning much good will... but I've heard a few
>more specifics in this thread than most anything I've seen come through
>here in quite some time. I'll take a little public abuse for that.

More bullshit cover story for your humiliations. You don't
care what anyone thinks of you? That's supposed to make you what-
a maverick? You go your own way? You don't care what we think because
you *can't*. You can't because we all know you suck, and that won't
fit with your insane little self-image. Please spare us the ridiculous
Robin-Hood pose- you're no one's rough-and-tumble hero, championing the
scrub cause and willing to take a few lumps from the evil tyrants
while scampering away with some of their precious knowledge. You're
just a scrub. That's it. No more, no less.

>And, to some degree, I'm seeking to establish just how far out in the woods
>Portland really is here. Do I really think that we're going to produce the
>next Alex Valle? _Probably_ not.

That's big of you, fuckwit.

But, by the same token, it doesn't seem
>even now like Jackson got completely embarassed just showing up at B4, even
>if he didn't exactly threaten to win. In that, I have a bit of hope, and
>after a few more (irate) perspectives on the matter I have a rough idea of
>where Portland is on the map.

Again, no- you don't. You have no clue. How could you?

If I can make something happen when I go to
>Cali myself, I'll have an even better idea.

"Make something happen"? That's a pretty high goal you've set
for yourself. Don't think anyone's fooled by this crap anymore. All
this phrase does is leave the door open for you to get excited by when
you land a kiss into super with your precious Rogue. Try *winning*.
Or showing someone something they haven't already seen, only done
way better- neither of which you've ever managed on here.

I'll take a little public abuse
>for that, too. And, as I've said privately in email... I don't _really_
>expect that I wouldn't lose more often than not down there. If I can at
>least manage to throw a few curve balls, I'll be happy, and other than that
>I'd expect to learn more than win. I'll settle for that. :)

Yeah- "curve balls". WTF. So if you go (still a big if, IMO-
look for the next installment of Stilt's sob stories about how he showed
up in *California*, and then no one called him to play! So it's not his
fault...), after you get beat the hell down, you can make more of your
little innuendos about how you think you "showed them a thing or three",
and then pray they don't follow up, or are at least take pity on you
after having met.
You suck. You know nothing. Your revisionist history casting
of yourself in the "devil's advocate/Robin Hood" light falls exactly as
flat as it has in previous threads where you try and loosely talk your
way out of the hole your own rank bullshit repeatedly digs for you.
How many humiliations will it take for you to shut up? I can't
believe you were shameless enough come back after the Storm fiasco
(much less any of your previous slapdowns). That only sent you
into hiding for what- a year or so? With each return you demonstrate
new depths of depravity. My hat's off to you baby.

Seth Killian

[Stilt Man]

In article <knZf5.3837$Il3....@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,

seth james killian <skil...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:

>stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) writes:
>>I'm playing devil's advocate, because "just listening" is generally pretty
>>useless in here. My experience in here, if I've failed to learn anything
>>else, is that one generally does not get a real idea of WHY something works
>>or how to do it or what one might be able to do about it by "just listening".
>>No one ever gives _details_.

> The above is a blatant lie designed as a cover story for
>your terrifying ignorance (revealed yet again), and an obvious one
>at that. The world's most relentlessly vague poster was after
>*details* the whole time? The reason some questions go
>entirely unanswered is for exactly that reason: they're too
>vague.

Seth... bullshit. As you've commented yourself in the past, this board is
generally useless for dredging up much in the way of anything other than
the occasional argument about how xxx char completely sucks. I've seen
basically two posts in the entire history of this newsgroup that even hint
at details about how exactly the Strider/Doom trap is supposed to work or
how the better players do it. There has been no serious effort to ask for
more of what people want to know, there has been simply a blank assertion
that the two chars rule and the occasional comment that you can attack with
Strider out of a teleport after calling Doom when you're not actually aiming
for any great trap.

Take a serious read over this newsgroup and tell me how much real detail you
usually see out of folks as to how things actually work, from anyone who
really knows what they're doing. (Yes, for the sake of fairness, let's omit
me from that and save argument time.) There's precious little to work from.
It was to a point that when I told Jackson how to find this place I warned
him that he'd find more flames than useful tips.

>>As someone elsewhere has said in the thread, it's not enough to just fire
>>off the orbs and call Doom. I've figured that much out by now --

> As "someone" said? It was me, you jackass, and you know it.

I wasn't keeping track and didn't terribly care.

>And you've "figured out that much by now"? That's exactly what you
>*haven't* done. You've been going on in this thread and (at length)
>before about how you'd *seen* the trap- you still haven't seen a
>better version, and you don't understand (even on paper) how to
>improve the shitty version your locals cooked up.

I've seen _a_ trap. Or an attempt at it. The version I see probably sucks,
yes. I state things partially out of devil's advocate and partially to gauge
whether or not the people I'm running across can do it worth a bean.

>>So I prod. I poke. And sometimes I even troll (as I've been doing to Seth
>>on this thread, in case it weren't mind-numbingly obvious).

> Man, the bottom dropped out of my stomach when I read that one...
>*I've* been being trolled this whole time? Oh man! How could I have been
>so stupid! He's been drawing me into an elaborate trap...

Nothing terribly elaborate. It's not exactly the world's deepest secret that,
although you're generally a nice guy in real life, you have this tendency to,
shall we say, use a.g.sf2 to take out frustration. Tell me, Seth... do
suggestions that someone's had their lunch money stolen so they're taking it
out on me, implications that they can't find Cable on a selection screen, and
unflattering comparisons of their cognitive skills to a banana slug's _usually_
find their way into my posts? Do you really think that, knowing that you're
just a few tacos short of a combination plate in the "holding one's temper"
department, that I'd single you out for such treatment for any reason _other_
than to amuse myself by yanking your chain? Hmmmm?

>> Yeah, it gets
>>me into trouble in terms of earning much good will... but I've heard a few
>>more specifics in this thread than most anything I've seen come through
>>here in quite some time. I'll take a little public abuse for that.

> More bullshit cover story for your humiliations. You don't
>care what anyone thinks of you? That's supposed to make you what-
>a maverick? You go your own way? You don't care what we think because
>you *can't*.

You know... you're right. It's kind of difficult to care what some dude I've
never met (and may well never will) in some town I never hear of outside of
Chicago-area MS FlightSim airport maps thinks of me.

>> But, by the same token, it doesn't seem
>>even now like Jackson got completely embarassed just showing up at B4, even
>>if he didn't exactly threaten to win. In that, I have a bit of hope, and
>>after a few more (irate) perspectives on the matter I have a rough idea of
>>where Portland is on the map.

> Again, no- you don't. You have no clue. How could you?

I've seen Jackson's Cable (however much he claims it's weakened by "the worst
controllers imaginable"). I see the likes of Jay Snyder telling me that
he considers it "above average but not up to SoCal standards, with forgettable
helpers," which gives me a better idea of how his Cable compares to, say,
Duc's, not to mention somewhat confirming my own impression (unmentioned
here) that if you took his Cable out of the equation the rest of his chars
would be in trouble. I see a number of comments suggesting that Sanchez might
have been running on autopilot for part of the match when he beat Jackson at
B4 (including yours). And I see how the locals who went to B4 change their
tactics after they've seen folks in Cali doing it -- not to mention, I adjust
my own so that I don't get bombed off the map by them while we're at it. A
couple of ideas for how to deal with him in the future have come along, and
there's the odd post from both Viscant and SpiderDan stating how they fared
against Jackson in their more casual matches with the statement that serious
chars were indeed being played.

This is a fair amount of information, and more than I had when I first
answered Sanchez's post at the beginning of this thread or from talking
to Jackson and the rest when they got back. So what if I got flamed by
Seth Killian for it? I can get that for free anyhow. ;)

>> If I can make something happen when I go to
>>Cali myself, I'll have an even better idea.

> "Make something happen"? That's a pretty high goal you've set
>for yourself. Don't think anyone's fooled by this crap anymore. All
>this phrase does is leave the door open for you to get excited by when
>you land a kiss into super with your precious Rogue. Try *winning*.
>Or showing someone something they haven't already seen, only done
>way better- neither of which you've ever managed on here.

I'll be aiming to do so. If I fail, then I'll learn more than I ever did
reading any posts with your name on them. Either way, I think it's worth
a shot. After all... everyone thinks I suck now anyway. What have I got
to lose? I can prove I'm right or I can prove I suck, and either way I
ought to come away with something new to work on. I'm not _quite_ crazy
enough not to ultimately see this as a learning experience. ;)

(I wonder what balsa wood tastes like...)

[Arturo Sanchez]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 psydu...@my-deja.com wrote:

> Hey Arturo whats your ICQ number, I need to ask you how to get that
> Strider/Doom trap to work properly. My ICQ # is 64329109.
>
>

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
>

Oh..it's at 553999, man..fear my 6 digit ICQ#. :P

[Spider-Dan]

This is totally false. AK has gone on about "perfect Strider
trap" on SEVERAL occasions, even mentioning something along the
lines of "dog into Ouro, call Iceman, fierce-rh-dog,
fierce-rh-dog, call Doom, fierce-rh-dog-Ouro, repeat" at LEAST
twice. In the hundred post long thread that included lots of
discussion of Jug vs Strider, people went on and on about
Strider-Doom trap in general... meanwhile, you're sitting back
saying, "I'll call Cammy AAA and airdash all day long." You
don't want details at all; your response to even the most
straightforward explanation (Strider vs Jug) is "I'll kill him if
I ever land a jab." Totally useless.

>Take a serious read over this newsgroup and tell me how much
real detail you
>usually see out of folks as to how things actually work, from
anyone who
>really knows what they're doing. (Yes, for the sake of
fairness, let's omit
>me from that and save argument time.) There's precious little
to work from.
>It was to a point that when I told Jackson how to find this
place I warned
>him that he'd find more flames than useful tips.

Your feeling on the subject is shared by a lot of people;
strangely enough, most of that group is comprised of people who
wantonly run their mouth and then get offended when they get
flamed into oblivion.

The rule that I've observed in a.g.sf2 is simple. If you are
going to assert that you know what you are talking about, you had
better *know what you are talking about*, preferably with proof.
Otherwise, if you don't like being flamed, and you're not
certain, provide a *suggestion* and ask for verification. I've
never once seen someone get flamed for asking a legitmate
question, other than stupid shit like "How do you do Akuma's
Kill Move?" which can be found on any number of sites, notably
gamefaqs. Even then, the extent of the flame is usually
"Go check www.gamefaqs.com, scrub."

>>>As someone elsewhere has said in the thread, it's not enough
to just fire
>>>off the orbs and call Doom. I've figured that much out by now
--
>
>> As "someone" said? It was me, you jackass, and you know
it.
>
>I wasn't keeping track and didn't terribly care.
>
>>And you've "figured out that much by now"? That's exactly what
you
>>*haven't* done. You've been going on in this thread and (at
length)
>>before about how you'd *seen* the trap- you still haven't seen
a
>>better version, and you don't understand (even on paper) how to
>>improve the shitty version your locals cooked up.
>
>I've seen _a_ trap. Or an attempt at it. The version I see
probably sucks,
>yes. I state things partially out of devil's advocate and
partially to gauge
>whether or not the people I'm running across can do it worth a
bean.

Seriously, you don't know what you're talking about. You've
never seen it. If your plan is to present yourself as a
grammatically enhanced Jinston 2.0, you're doing an excellent
job. Otherwise, you'd be well served to *shut the fuck up*, to
put it bluntly.

--
Dan Thompson
[send email to] edge [at] chipware [dot] net

[Jinmaster]

In article <8lpvlv$1i6$1...@user2.teleport.com>,

Excuse me but how does acting like an arrogant jackass get the
information you want made public? The just of what you have said at the
start of this thread goes like this: I give Jackson trouble, Jackson
gave Art trouble, so I would give Art trouble, or some shit like that.

> Take a serious read over this newsgroup and tell me how much real
detail you
> usually see out of folks as to how things actually work, from anyone
who
> really knows what they're doing. (Yes, for the sake of fairness,
let's omit
> me from that and save argument time.) There's precious little to
work from.
> It was to a point that when I told Jackson how to find this place I
warned
> him that he'd find more flames than useful tips.

What useful tips have YOU come up with? Don't tell me "Stay in the air
versus strider/doom", and other things that are frankly dumb.

Yes, attack his personality and not his logic more pls. It's funny how
every time somoene basically has you beat at every angle, you start
spouting off incoherently, completely ignoring the other person's
arguemnt(see banna slug). Bascially, seth and a few others have
resolved to make sure you look bad at every turn(which isn't hard), in
the hopes that after all this time you will go away.

What Strategy have you contributed during this discusion? Wait, you are
the same guy who thinks that Roll with Doom beta assist can beat a
glitched Jugg. Too bad I haven't been around to read about the
uh, "storm fiasco", although im sure it would be an interesting read.

Tell me Stilt, are you really coming to California? When? And where
will you play?

Either way, I think it's worth
> a shot. After all... everyone thinks I suck now anyway. What have I
got
> to lose? I can prove I'm right or I can prove I suck, and either way
I
> ought to come away with something new to work on. I'm not _quite_
crazy
> enough not to ultimately see this as a learning experience. ;)
>
> (I wonder what balsa wood tastes like...)
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
> http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
> < We are Microsoft Borg '98. Lower your expectations and >
> < surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
> < Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
> < technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
> < will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
>

--
Homepage for Marvel Vs. Capcom I and
II:http://www.geocities.com/therealjinmaster/
Homepage for Starcraft:
http://www.geocities.com/therealjinmaster/starcraft/intro.html

[sven]

Falconer?
Would you be the same Falconer as the one in the Scott Faulkner
Blues Explosion? *runs*

sven
you *will not* crush me.

^^

[Stilt Man]

In article <8lqg65$c28$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

Jinmaster <jinm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <8lpvlv$1i6$1...@user2.teleport.com>,
> stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:
>> Take a serious read over this newsgroup and tell me how much real detail you
>> usually see out of folks as to how things actually work, from anyone who
>> really knows what they're doing. (Yes, for the sake of fairness, let's omit
>> me from that and save argument time.) There's precious little to work from.
>> It was to a point that when I told Jackson how to find this place I warned
>> him that he'd find more flames than useful tips.

>What useful tips have YOU come up with? Don't tell me "Stay in the air
>versus strider/doom", and other things that are frankly dumb.

Well, if nothing else, Cammy-A. It's pretty well universally recognized as
one of the best AAAs in the game right now, and Cammy herself is considered
useful in the top two tiers pretty much on that basis alone. That's now.
Four or five months ago, the only person really advocating it was me... in
which I got argument from your own arcade, no less. IIRC, Spider-Dan was
the one who was telling me back then that Psylocke and Spidey were better
than Cammy because they had (gasp) projectiles, whereas I was arguing the
other way based largely on the cannon spike assist. Four or five months
later, this point is pretty much a given, and Cammy is pretty well acknowledged
amidst at least the second tier pretty much on that basis alone. See if you
can find any articles on Deja raving about it dated earlier than mine. See
if you can find the one where Dan was telling me that Spidey's sting was
comparable, while you're at it.

Then there's the one about pushblocking a headcrushing Juggernaut away from
helpers to a degree where they largely get away untouched. Remind me,
Jin-dude, HOW much flak did I take for that in here (including, IIRC, from
you)? Except that, on that particular occasion, I happened to be completely
RIGHT and my critics happened to be completely WRONG. Either that, or I must
be completely on drugs when I do this to every Jug who doesn't realize it's
possible, to a degree where I'll BAIT Jugs into trying to headcrush my helpers
in hopes that they'll swallow it. Even caught Jackson on it the other day...

>> I'll be aiming to do so. If I fail, then I'll learn more than I ever did
>> reading any posts with your name on them.

>What Strategy have you contributed during this discusion? Wait, you are
>the same guy who thinks that Roll with Doom beta assist can beat a
>glitched Jugg. Too bad I haven't been around to read about the
>uh, "storm fiasco", although im sure it would be an interesting read.

And here, you're taking _another_ shot at me, when the Roll/Doom argument
was never more than a comment that Doom's assist, in general, gives Jug
fits, and headcrushing Doom through Roll won't do any good to prevent that
because you can pushblock Jug's headcrush away from him at will if you just
stay in between them.

Have you figured out how to pushblock Jug away from Doom yet? (Doesn't have
to be Roll, it can be anyone.)

>Tell me Stilt, are you really coming to California? When? And where
>will you play?

Yes. I will be arriving in Sacramento a week from today (Thursday the 3rd)
and will be leaving first thing the following Tuesday morning. I will probably
be hunting down arcades in Sac to play at; I've been poking at Dan over email
to get info on where the good arcades are there for a good portion of this
thread's length.

[sol t kim]

Yes, I heard Alex had better trap, but I did not get to watch him play
Strider as he mainly played Storm (when I was watching). Choi's seemed
solid enough at least so that you did not have time to SJ away...

On 28 Jul 2000, Peter Mouko Nguyen wrote:

> >
> >I watched John Choi do the trap in Chicago, and there didn't seem to be
> >gap enough to SJ or lightning super...by the time the second tiger gets
> >cancelled into Oroborus, you are still blocking rocks...unless I missed
> >something.
> >--
> >
> >
>

> choi doesn't have a solid trap..that title goes to Alex Valle and Ricky Ortiz
> (sp?)
> ~Miggity Mouko~
>

--

[James M]

Stilit, just a note on your "Devil's Advocate." You do know what
the Devil's Advocate is, right? It means you *know* they are the
devil (that you are wrong) and argue anyway. Maybe because you
are argumentative, or a good debate sharpens minds on both
sides...

But, what exactly were you playing Devil's Advocate on? That
Rogue is good? That the Strider/Doom trap is bad? By saying you
play Devils Advocate what you are saying is "I know I am wrong."
Does that really serve any useful point? And knowing that you
like to defend positions you know are incorrect, you think
anyone wants to spend the time to explain anything to you?

In this thread the "points" you have brilliantly uncovered are
that Jackson's Cable is above average and below So.Cal. Would
*anyone* have expected any different? Helpful in any way?
Audience?

This game has a lot of variable. You know that a lot of people
think that Strider/Doom is good. You have heard the basics of
how it operates. You have 2 hands. (presumably) Strider and Doom
are starting chars. Is it too much to ask you play around with
them a bit yourself, or ask some more constructive questions,
rather than "but how will Strider/Doom deal with my insanely
mobile Rogue and her patented super-jump!?"

James M

[Peter Mouko Nguyen]

[Peter Mouko Nguyen]

>
>Also, I suggest you get yourself down to SVGL or SHGL in the upcoming
>weeks/months to see what MVC2 is all about. Seriously. You'd learn a
>LOT...the Golfland players are WAAAAY too good.

I think he'd learn more if he went to Milpitas Golfland...the players there are
generally better in MvC2.
~Miggity Mouko~

[Peter Mouko Nguyen]

>Oh, I'm aware that I'd probably get stomped there, yeah. I intend to go and
>find a thing or three out, yes.

for MvC2 comp, Milpitas Golfland is the better choice IMO. Conectration of
players is better there than at SVGL. MGL is like 10 or so minutes from SVGL.
~Miggity Mouko~

[Falconer]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 17:10:34 -0700, Falconer looked out from Castle
Ouroburos and spotted sven <gjdNO...@usa.net.invalid> causing

trouble. Frowning, Falconer set off to investigate...

>Falconer?

>Would you be the same Falconer as the one in the Scott Faulkner
>Blues Explosion? *runs*

*pursues, grabs, thwaps on the nose* That'd be me, damn those silly
guys. :)

>sven
>you *will not* crush me.
>
>^^

I can certainly fold you into shapes unintended for the human body
though, if needed. ;)

[Seiya]

WOW!!!!?
i was watching this thread when the post first came out. now its
fuckin long and full of hate . silt man,just shut up and don't
hate. stop being a hater. haters are not accepted in this world.
your like infamous now for being a
hater.who.doesn't.know.shit.com

Once again.. don't hate... don't talk back to me either saying
other bullshit.. (that is hating if u talk back)

[Vidness]

I can't beat that 6 digit ICQ...but I do have a 3 digit (just barely) Kali.
#109 ^_^

-Vidness

"Arturo Sanchez" <ai...@columbia.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.10.100072...@sawasdee.cc.columbia.edu...

> On Thu, 27 Jul 2000 psydu...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > Hey Arturo whats your ICQ number, I need to ask you how to get that
> > Strider/Doom trap to work properly. My ICQ # is 64329109.
> >
> >

> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
> >
> >
>

[sven]

heh.
odd that i would run into you here more often, than, say Wandy's
board or the chatroom. You should appear sometime... one tires of
Arlieth. ;)

sven
who can't have his umlaut here, too.

[Jinmaster]

In article <8lql4l$rot$1...@user2.teleport.com>,

stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:
> In article <8lqg65$c28$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Jinmaster <jinm...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> >In article <8lpvlv$1i6$1...@user2.teleport.com>,
> > stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:
> >> Take a serious read over this newsgroup and tell me how much real
detail you
> >> usually see out of folks as to how things actually work, from
anyone who
> >> really knows what they're doing. (Yes, for the sake of fairness,
let's omit
> >> me from that and save argument time.) There's precious little to
work from.
> >> It was to a point that when I told Jackson how to find this place
I warned
> >> him that he'd find more flames than useful tips.
>
> >What useful tips have YOU come up with? Don't tell me "Stay in the
air
> >versus strider/doom", and other things that are frankly dumb.
>

> Well, if nothing else, Cammy-A. It's pretty well universally
recognized as
> one of the best AAAs in the game right now, and Cammy herself is
considered
> useful in the top two tiers pretty much on that basis alone. That's
now.
> Four or five months ago, the only person really advocating it was
me... in
> which I got argument from your own arcade, no less.

Tell me, where is "my arcade"?

IIRC, Spider-Dan was
> the one who was telling me back then that Psylocke and Spidey were
better
> than Cammy because they had (gasp) projectiles, whereas I was arguing
the

> other way based largely on the cannon spike assist. Four or five
months

> later, this point is pretty much a given, and Cammy is pretty well
acknowledged
> amidst at least the second tier pretty much on that basis alone. See
if you
> can find any articles on Deja raving about it dated earlier than
mine. See
> if you can find the one where Dan was telling me that Spidey's sting
was
> comparable, while you're at it.

Yes, I remember that thread, although I don't think it shows you as
being very helpful. But congrats, you are actually right about
something. Cheers.

> Then there's the one about pushblocking a headcrushing Juggernaut
away from
> helpers to a degree where they largely get away untouched. Remind me,
> Jin-dude, HOW much flak did I take for that in here (including, IIRC,
from
> you)? Except that, on that particular occasion, I happened to be
completely
> RIGHT and my critics happened to be completely WRONG.

Completely wrong? Ok, let's go over this again. You said roll would
give jugg trouble with Doom assist, essentially saying that
strider/doom = misc.-character/doom. Roll would not beat Jugg with
*any* assist, given that the players of the characters are of equal
skill. Secondly, it was well established that Roll cannot get far
enough in front of doom or protect him from Juggy. Yes, you can push
Jugg but you must put a certain distance between him and Doom. Even in
the rare case that Jugg will stupidly headcrush in this case, the only
punishment he would receive is a mere 15-20% damage combo. even still,
Jugg can jump into Doom after the rocks with a C.feierce or jugg punch,
which does a good 35% or so when glitched. Please don't turn "roll with
doom would give jugg trouble"(which is "un-true" to be nice) into "I
was completely right about pushblocking"(which is true but not
applicable to the scope of the thread.

Either that, or I must
> be completely on drugs when I do this to every Jug who doesn't
realize it's
> possible, to a degree where I'll BAIT Jugs into trying to headcrush
my helpers
> in hopes that they'll swallow it. Even caught Jackson on it the
other day...
>

> >> I'll be aiming to do so. If I fail, then I'll learn more than I
ever did
> >> reading any posts with your name on them.
>
> >What Strategy have you contributed during this discusion? Wait, you
are
> >the same guy who thinks that Roll with Doom beta assist can beat a
> >glitched Jugg. Too bad I haven't been around to read about the
> >uh, "storm fiasco", although im sure it would be an interesting read.
>

> And here, you're taking _another_ shot at me, when the Roll/Doom
argument
> was never more than a comment that Doom's assist, in general, gives
Jug
> fits, and headcrushing Doom through Roll won't do any good to prevent
that
> because you can pushblock Jug's headcrush away from him at will if
you just
> stay in between them.
>
> Have you figured out how to pushblock Jug away from Doom yet?
(Doesn't have
> to be Roll, it can be anyone.)

You didn't say "Doom's assist gives Jugg trouble". You
said "Roll"(meaning any fucking character) with Doom 'b' would give
Jugg trouble. The unstated premise here is that Strider/doom is nothing
becuase anyone is good with Doom(as can be infered fom the thread that
is specifically about strider/doom) Doom himself may give people
trouble, but no chatacter can abuse it like Strider can. I hope you can
see what I'm talking about.

>
> >Tell me Stilt, are you really coming to California? When? And where
> >will you play?
>

> Yes. I will be arriving in Sacramento a week from today (Thursday
the 3rd)
> and will be leaving first thing the following Tuesday morning. I
will probably
> be hunting down arcades in Sac to play at; I've been poking at Dan
over email
> to get info on where the good arcades are there for a good portion of
this
> thread's length.

jinm...@hotmail.com

I'll give you the adress for the gameroom in Folsom and SVGL.

[Stilt Man]

In article <8lt6gk$bod$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

Jinmaster <jinm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <8lql4l$rot$1...@user2.teleport.com>,
> stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:
>> Then there's the one about pushblocking a headcrushing Juggernaut away from
>> helpers to a degree where they largely get away untouched. Remind me,
>> Jin-dude, HOW much flak did I take for that in here (including, IIRC, from
>> you)? Except that, on that particular occasion, I happened to be completely
>> RIGHT and my critics happened to be completely WRONG.

>Completely wrong? Ok, let's go over this again. You said roll would
>give jugg trouble with Doom assist, essentially saying that
>strider/doom = misc.-character/doom. Roll would not beat Jugg with
>*any* assist, given that the players of the characters are of equal
>skill.

That's not quite accurate. People were telling me that Strider would beat
Jugs if he had Doom behind him, in counter to my statement that Jugs would
squash Strider in one-on-one. I granted that, but with the flippant statement,
"F*ck, _Roll_ could probably give Juggernaut a run for his money if she had
Doom behind her." I was not suggesting that Roll would actually win more
often than not against him, merely that -- when I was pressed for a percentage
I said "probably no more than about 30, but she'd still make him work for it".
I was flamed from several quarters saying that Juggernaut could just casually
headcrush Doom through Roll, to which I pointed out that it's rather trivial
for Roll to pushblock Jug away to a degree that Doom is not significantly
touched.

>Secondly, it was well established that Roll cannot get far
>enough in front of doom or protect him from Juggy. Yes, you can push
>Jugg but you must put a certain distance between him and Doom.

No, I'm sorry, that was _not_ well established. Take the Roll example out
here and get this a little bit more realistic: around Monday or Tuesday of
this week I played my Rogue/Doom/Cammy against Jackson's mess-around "splatter
helpers with the triple super" team of BBHood/Jug/Hulk. I messed around to
tinker with Rogue against it before it finally just came to me that playing
against that team with those tactics near the ground is known as a "bad idea",
and so I swapped my starters and put Doom up front, keeping him in for the
bulk of the game. BBHood died, Hulk and Jug were badly hurt, before eventually
I took Doom out on a VC of a Jug jumpin into a Rogue power drain, and kept
her in against him for the endgame while Doom recovered.

The place where this gets significant was basically in the last few seconds.
After I spent a fair amount of time giving Jackson's Jug utter fits with Rogue
in front of Doom/Cammy, he eventually figures out that jumping in and doing
much but airblocking is also a bad idea. He's thinking to hurt a helper, I'm
thinking I'll give him bait to try to headcrush one so that Rogue can finish
Jug off. So he jumps in, Cammy bounces off his airblock with the spike, and
lands, I kid you not, RIGHT ON TOP OF ROGUE. Jackson takes the bait and
immediately headcrushes. Even though Jug is glitched and Cammy is basically
overlapping Rogue's sprite all the way, Cammy gets out completely untouched.
The only thing that saved Jug from getting a lethal good night kiss was that
the time ran out right then. Cammy finished the game with a _total_ of about
10% redbar. As this _is_ Cammy on a glitched Jug, I believe that she probably
took that from earlier in the fight, but even if she took that from the
headcrush that's still _far_ less than Rogue was about to do to Jug if the
timer hadn't held her off.

Moral of the story: you don't need, in real terms, _any_ sort of real spacing
between your primary and helper to stop a headcrush from hurting the helper
to speak of. If you've got the spacing, neat, that makes it easier, but right
on top of them will do. Even if you're unlucky enough to have a pixel of
extra hitbox exposed, the first (wimpy) hit from the headcrush will knock
them behind the primary anyway. The primary, if you do it right, doesn't have
to budge _at_all_. As long as the helper isn't something like a venom fang,
a mystic smash, a web swing, a Strider dive, or something else that throws the
helper's own body well ahead of the primary, you can pretty much protect
anything from a headcrush by effective pushblocking.

If you are finding differently, you're not doing it right. In this one, I
know exactly what I'm talking about. It's a _staple_ of my anti-Jug tactics
to bait headcrushes like this. And it's not like it's a situation where my
opposition can possibly suck so hard that I can get away with this -- a
headcrush is a headcrush, it's the same here as it is there. If you're getting
your helpers hurt by them, you're doing something wrong.

And that is what I was really arguing in the whole Roll v. Jug thread -- that
the headcrush itself won't save Jug. Other stuff, maybe... the headcrush, no.

>jinm...@hotmail.com

>I'll give you the adress for the gameroom in Folsom and SVGL.

All right.

[Fluffy]

In article <8lql4l$rot$1...@user2.teleport.com>,

stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:
> In article <8lqg65$c28$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Jinmaster <jinm...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> >In article <8lpvlv$1i6$1...@user2.teleport.com>,
> > stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:
> >> Take a serious read over this newsgroup and tell me how much real
detail you
> >> usually see out of folks as to how things actually work, from
anyone who
> >> really knows what they're doing. (Yes, for the sake of fairness,
let's omit
> >> me from that and save argument time.) There's precious little to
work from.
> >> It was to a point that when I told Jackson how to find this place I
warned
> >> him that he'd find more flames than useful tips.
>
> >What useful tips have YOU come up with? Don't tell me "Stay in the
air
> >versus strider/doom", and other things that are frankly dumb.
>

> Well, if nothing else, Cammy-A. It's pretty well universally
recognized as
> one of the best AAAs in the game right now, and Cammy herself is
considered
> useful in the top two tiers pretty much on that basis alone. That's
now.
> Four or five months ago, the only person really advocating it was
me... in
> which I got argument from your own arcade, no less.

Wait a minute, wait a mintue wait a minute. Four or five months ago?
You're basing your arguement here on statements you made when the game
first came out? At the time, no one really had a solid idea of what was
going to be tourament worthy or not. Read a thread called "MVC2
Character Tier" if you want to see what i'm talking about.

>IIRC, Spider-Dan
was
> the one who was telling me back then that Psylocke and Spidey were
better
> than Cammy because they had (gasp) projectiles, whereas I was arguing
the

> other way based largely on the cannon spike assist. Four or five
months

> later, this point is pretty much a given, and Cammy is pretty well
acknowledged
> amidst at least the second tier pretty much on that basis alone. See
if you
> can find any articles on Deja raving about it dated earlier than mine.
See
> if you can find the one where Dan was telling me that Spidey's sting
was
> comparable, while you're at it.

Since you're looking into the past, count how many threads they have
been where you stick your foot in your mouth. Let's not overlook those
now. By the way, what does a shoe taste like? I figured you for the
expert on that one...

> Then there's the one about pushblocking a headcrushing Juggernaut away
from
> helpers to a degree where they largely get away untouched. Remind me,
> Jin-dude, HOW much flak did I take for that in here (including, IIRC,
from
> you)? Except that, on that particular occasion, I happened to be
completely

> RIGHT and my critics happened to be completely WRONG. Either that, or

I must
> be completely on drugs when I do this to every Jug who doesn't realize
it's
> possible, to a degree where I'll BAIT Jugs into trying to headcrush my
helpers
> in hopes that they'll swallow it. Even caught Jackson on it the other
day...

Umm, no. You still haven't even given a good description of what your
talking about. Considering almost every situation where that will work
will almost never occure, and the multitude of situations where Juggie
will just continue to blair through have been all but ingored by you.
And who's going to blindly Headcrush a helper any way? In fact, who
atually uses Juggie as an active character? I always thought everyone
used him in Variable Cross supers to kill multiple characters outright
in one shot...

> >> I'll be aiming to do so. If I fail, then I'll learn more than I
ever did
> >> reading any posts with your name on them.
>
> >What Strategy have you contributed during this discusion? Wait, you
are
> >the same guy who thinks that Roll with Doom beta assist can beat a
> >glitched Jugg. Too bad I haven't been around to read about the
> >uh, "storm fiasco", although im sure it would be an interesting read.
>

> And here, you're taking _another_ shot at me, when the Roll/Doom
argument
> was never more than a comment that Doom's assist, in general, gives
Jug
> fits, and headcrushing Doom through Roll won't do any good to prevent
that
> because you can pushblock Jug's headcrush away from him at will if you
just
> stay in between them.

Thank you Captain Obvious. Doom's assist gives Juggie problems....Yep.
I'm wondering how much longer it's going to take your you to realize
that Doom's assist in general gives a lot of characters problems,
especially paired with someone like Strider. Oh wait, you think that's
over-rated...

> Have you figured out how to pushblock Jug away from Doom yet?
(Doesn't have
> to be Roll, it can be anyone.)
>

> >Tell me Stilt, are you really coming to California? When? And where
> >will you play?
>

> Yes. I will be arriving in Sacramento a week from today (Thursday the
3rd)
> and will be leaving first thing the following Tuesday morning. I will
probably
> be hunting down arcades in Sac to play at; I've been poking at Dan
over email
> to get info on where the good arcades are there for a good portion of
this
> thread's length.

Once again, please let us know when you're going to show. I hope you're
ready dude, cuz this is your shot. Seven years in the making...

And you better know chicken out.

--
Fluffy

[Fluffy]

In article <8ltql7$chp$1...@user2.teleport.com>,

stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:
> In article <8lt6gk$bod$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Jinmaster <jinm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >In article <8lql4l$rot$1...@user2.teleport.com>,
> > stil...@user2.teleport.com (Stilt Man) wrote:

[snip]

> If you are finding differently, you're not doing it right. In this
one, I
> know exactly what I'm talking about. It's a _staple_ of my anti-Jug
tactics
> to bait headcrushes like this. And it's not like it's a situation
where my
> opposition can possibly suck so hard that I can get away with this --
a
> headcrush is a headcrush, it's the same here as it is there. If
you're getting
> your helpers hurt by them, you're doing something wrong.
>
> And that is what I was really arguing in the whole Roll v. Jug thread
-- that
> the headcrush itself won't save Jug. Other stuff, maybe... the
headcrush, no.

What happens if Juggie would have jabbed Rogue while Cammy was landing
to push her back behind Cammy? Then Headcrush hits Cammy, and all the
pushblocking in the world doesn't matter if Juggie uses some kind of
attack or assist to push you back behind. I don't really think this
thread is being argued because what you're saying is impossible, just
not likely to happen that way at high levels of play. You talk about it
like it's some great un-discovered technique, but in all reality, it
also has it's counter. The majority of helpers will stay in front of
the active character unless the active character finds a way to get in
front, be dashing, jumping, teleporting, etc. All you really have to do
to prevent that from happening is stick out an attack to push them back,
then it's open season on helpers. And if pushblocking becomes an issue,
call a helper first and then jab. still pushes the active far back
enough to get the helper in front, especially if it's Cammy.

> >jinm...@hotmail.com
>
> >I'll give you the adress for the gameroom in Folsom and SVGL.
>
> All right.
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
> http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
> < We are Microsoft Borg '98. Lower your expectations and >
> < surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
> < Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
> < technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
> < will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
>

--
Fluffy

[Lupid]

>AK has gone on about "perfect Strider trap" on SEVERAL
>occasions, even mentioning something along the lines of "dog
>into Ouro, call Iceman, fierce-rh-dog, fierce-rh-dog, call
>Doom, fierce-rh-dog-Ouro, repeat"

Does that work? Seems like they'd be able to push it away if
they timed it right (alot easier than the timing on the jab ring
trap). I'm a fan of ouro->taunt myself.