Darkstalkers better than sf3
Brian Fischer
last night i played Sf3 for about the tenth time
this morning i busted out Darkstalkers for my Saturn and i had a blast,
i think this game is much better than sf3
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net
Heh...I coulda told you that, if you mean DarkStalkers 1. :)
Many people keep forgetting how good DS1 was and is. It ranks up there
with ST in terms of gameplay, despite the chain combos.
It was fun, too.
The only game I like better than DS1 is ST. Everything else that's
decent (MSH, SS2, and KoF'95) are tied with it, IMHO.
Wishing you peace, love, and righteousness, it's.....
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Onaje Everett
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net |
|
|
| E-mail me for FAQs, files, and, of course, combos.
:) |
|
|
| Meaning- "The Sensitive One" Nicknames- "Fresh O.J.", "The
Juice" |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "I can do (not some...) ALL things through Christ, who strengthens
me." |
| -Phillipians
4:13 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
May the peace of Christ be with you.
Everett
hmmm, I'd have to disagree. Darkstalkers was always too wild for my
tastes. Demetri and Morrigan were the only people I could deal with.
Everyone else is crazy. You press strong or forward and the character
goes into some funky animation and you don't even want to press the
fierce or roundhouse buttons. Total craziness. Street Fighter on the
other hand is a bit more down to earth. You press fierce and one punch
flies, not some funky ball and chain like Hsien-Ko.
I liked the premise out DS but I just couldn't get into how wild
everything was. Plus it was really childish. Demetri, Donovan, and
J.Talbien, were the only characters that were taken seriously. After
those guys it seems like Capcom just became desperate for monsters to
put in the game. Think about some of the character designs. Robot,
Alien, Catwoman. Come on now, they could have done better than this.
Vampire, Werewolf, Succubus, and Vampire Hunter were all pretty cool.
Maybe they should have stuck another vamp in there.
If DS had a "darker" edge to it, I think I would have really gotten into
it. Plus it still needed a deeper gameplay system. Everything in that
game was a chain combo. It wa like the VS series but bound to the
ground.
Vampire Savior was nice, but a CPS3 DS would be even better.
Oh well, let me stop rambling. because this entire respond is totally
unorganized and come fully equipped with poor grammar and punctuation.
Bradley Poe
Hi,
No kidding...Darkstalkers is better for at least 3 reasons...
1) original characters...granted there are semi-ARK clones, but
the character designs are by and large better than anything in
a VS game...
2) supers that aren't "pumped" specials...DS was good about drawing
the line between ES specials and *real* (new animation) supers...
3) the defense has kept up with the offense...true, there are
*chains* but there are no super jumps, the chains don't go on
forever, and it takes *skill*, not spazzing, to rack up the hits.
Also 3b) this game clearly is in the Capcom old-school tradition
of requiring mastery of the *normal* moves in order to play well.
True, you can just play Felicia and twitch out, but it's more
fun to play Anakaris, and *master* him (never underestimate the
normals), and watch the jaws drop as you beat the crap out of a
lot of folks...(besides, I'm being a little sentimental...thanks
to Anakaris, I finally got my Dragon Punch motion down solid).
Well that's enough for now...it's a pity people were so turned
off by DS's cartoony looks early on that no one will look at it
now, in spite of the 'toony style's apparent triumph in the VS.
games...
More Later,
Brad Poe
--
The road to apocalypse is littered with all manner of compelling
signs that at bottom all say the same thing: close your eyes.
Vong (Shinji) Sundara
Definitely!!! It's sooooooo much better for several reasons.
1) Character design in this game is fabulous. I use over half
of the characters (something I've never done with a game
other than SF2: Turbo which I think is the best SF of all
time, even better than ST but that's just my opinion). Alpha
lacked this (I barely wanted to use 1/5 of the characters
after trying them, I try characters for at least a full week or
two of experimenting to see if I like their attack patterns and
if the moves the programmers gave them go well together to
make solid character). Examples, hmmmmm, they basically
destroyed Dhalsim, loss of priority in every direction, slower
walking speed but he was always slow, his fireball doesn't
reachf full screen and his drill punch and kick (jump up and
hold down plus a punch or kick) was altered to make it more
controllable but instead they made it weaker.
2) The original ideas in this game are sooooo plentiful for
its time that it's weird. Let me list the things that this game
introduced to the world: Air blocking, chain combos,
air combos (limited though), super moves (it came out
before ST if you'll remember) called EX Specials,
ES Specials (like the EX Specials in 2i), pursuit attacks
(first ever for a 2D game) in the sequel, dark powers,
and on and on and on. It's not even funny how original
the Darkstalkers games are. A CPS-3 Darkstalkers
would be heavenly.
I love this game much more than SF3 but I have to still put
it a step below SF2 Turbo but still higher than ST because
SF2 Turbo was just the best, I used EVERY character
competitively (I don't mean tournament competitions or
anything, I mean against other good players, I was comfortable
with EVERY character and this was the only game that did
that).
- Shinji
Ultima
Vong (Shinji) Sundara wrote:
> Definitely!!! It's sooooooo much better for several reasons.
extremely annoying. I don't know why... >:(
> 1) Character design in this game is fabulous. I use over half
> of the characters (something I've never done with a game
> other than SF2: Turbo which I think is the best SF of all
> time, even better than ST but that's just my opinion). Alpha
> lacked this (I barely wanted to use 1/5 of the characters
> after trying them
[slash]
Hmmm... I like the Alpha bunch myself (no more or less than the ST
batch). There are really only a few characters I'm not too keen on using
(like Birdie, and others who I used to like just keep getting castrated
like Bison and Adon :( ). And of course, Shotos are a no-no. At this
stage, I don't even like using Sagat. And I don't like Chun Li (never
did since she lost her old Air SBK). Hmmm.. That's eigth right there.
Anyone else I'll use at any given time (how well I play them is another
question though ;)
Examples, hmmmmm, they basically
> destroyed Dhalsim, loss of priority in every direction, slower
> walking speed but he was always slow, his fireball doesn't
> reachf full screen and his drill punch and kick (jump up and
> hold down plus a punch or kick) was altered to make it more
> controllable but instead they made it weaker.
Oh, you don't play more than 1/5th the characters because they weakened
one? Makes sense...
> 2) The original ideas in this game are sooooo plentiful for
> its time that it's weird. Let me list the things that this game
> introduced to the world: Air blocking,
Nope. I've been informed that Time Killers was actually the first one to
use air-blocking. Capcom just made it popular.
> chain combos,
Not sure... Probably the chains as we know them. Which came first? XCOTA
or DS1?
> air combos (limited though),
Er, do air combos count as another type of juggle? If so, then MK (no, I
don't like it; but give credit where credit is due) had them long before
any Capcom game.
super moves (it came out
> before ST if you'll remember) called EX Specials,
Yeah, but SNK's had them for years...
> ES Specials (like the EX Specials in 2i),
This was new.. Actually no: World Heroes hard one example, sortof: Hanzo
and Fuuma's single star and double star... :p
> pursuit attacks (first ever for a 2D game) in the sequel,
Attacks that hit on the ground? yeah, probably...
> dark powers,
What? A lot of the Dark Powers could easily have been implemented as
supers IMO. The idea of giving them extra abilities was brought over
from SF3, I think...
> and on and on and on. It's not even funny how original
> the Darkstalkers games are. A CPS-3 Darkstalkers
> would be heavenly.
No argument there. I too would like a more serious overtone, but it
would be nice to at least look at.
> I love this game much more than SF3 but I have to still put
> it a step below SF2 Turbo but still higher than ST because
> SF2 Turbo was just the best, I used EVERY character
> competitively (I don't mean tournament competitions or
> anything, I mean against other good players, I was comfortable
> with EVERY character and this was the only game that did
> that).
Well, I don't know about you, but it as the only Sf game I played for
three years (little access to anything new that was good). Given time,
you can become familiar with all the characters in any game. Whether you
actually WANT to is another story: Hf has that over ST - For the life of
me, I still can't ever muster the need to properly learn the likes of
Dee Jay, Fei Long and Cammy (T.Hawk has some potential with Mexican
Typhoon). Blanka I no longer find interesting; neither Sagat (in fact, I
think I've falled out "uppercut brothers altogether), and I still don't
play Shotos. I just plain don't like them. In HF, all the characters
(save the shotos) I liked to play at any time. But after threee years, I
couldn't take it anymore.. :\
--
Ultima
http://www.concentric.net/~Ultima1 - Street Fighter RPG, Final
Fantasy VII, Fan art, and miscellaneous rambling...
SFCode Ver 5.0:
{V+ MB+ Rl+ Cr+[SFA2] I[III]+ Ax[I,III]+}
[ac- +cc+(!ccRl&MB) ch- cn- c m+ 2+ n++ os+ p+ r@++ sp- st ta--
t(t+SCR) tm-- tr-:- th--@- v+(v++SFA2)]
"If you were stuck on a deserted island, and you could only
choose between MK and SF to be stuck with, and you choose MK,
then you deserve to be on that island" - Slasher Quan
"If an arcade doesn't contain some version of SF or SS in it,
then's it's not an arcade"
Milo D. Cooper
> Everett wrote:
>
> hmmm, I'd have to disagree. Darkstalkers was always too wild for my
> tastes. Demetri and Morrigan were the only people I could deal with.
Oh my #!@%, it's true; Darkstalkers *was* too weird for people
in the States.
> Everyone else is crazy. You press strong or forward and the character
> goes into some funky animation and you don't even want to press the
> fierce or roundhouse buttons. Total craziness. Street Fighter on the
> other hand is a bit more down to earth. You press fierce and one punch
> flies, not some funky ball and chain like Hsien-Ko.
Sounds to me like you don't -- or can't -- distinguish game play
from graphic creativity. Dhalsim was a whacky character from the
start; should he have beem omitted from the SF series? And last I
checked, there was nothing "down to earth" about spontaneously-gen-
erated balls of energy, jupming off non-existent walls, becoming a
flaming torpedo, ground slides that defy physical law, an intelli-
gent, green thing of an animal named Jimmy who makes his own elec-
tricity, a Sumo wrestler who can move his arms so fast that he ap-
pears to have 1,000 hands, a Chinese woman who can float upside-down
in mid-air, a Bruce Lee clone with fiery legs, a native American who
can stop and dive downward from mid-jump, a soldier who leaps about
ten feet into the air as he kicks his opponent with a crescent of
energy, etc. etc. etc. Get some perspective.
If you really value game play above anything else about a fighting
game, then you'll be indifferent to the way any attack is depicted.
So what if Anakaris' low fierce is a bunch of rotating, skyward-
reaching fists? It's just a funny-looking uppercut. As Onaje admir-
ably points out, Darkstalkers is a superb game, whose quality is sur-
passed only by the mighty Super Street Fighter II Turbo.
> I liked the premise out DS but I just couldn't get into how wild
> everything was. Plus it was really childish. Demetri, Donovan, and
> J.Talbien, were the only characters that were taken seriously. After
> those guys it seems like Capcom just became desperate for monsters to
> put in the game. Think about some of the character designs. Robot,
> Alien, Catwoman. Come on now, they could have done better than this.
> Vampire, Werewolf, Succubus, and Vampire Hunter were all pretty cool.
> Maybe they should have stuck another vamp in there.
If you're a stickler for obvious monster choices, you might want
to recall that the game included a Frankenstein monster, a swamp crea-
ture, a mummy, a yeti, and a zombie. Those are all extremely common-
place monster templates; you were probably turned off by them because
they didn't play like RyuKen, or anyone else in the Street Fighter ser-
ies. No doubt, your brain also failed to make any connection between
the wonderfully outlandish anime and martial combat, hence the follow-
ing statement:
> If DS had a "darker" edge to it, I think I would have really gotten into
> it.
Which means, "less slapstick humor and more familiar, realistic
methods of attack and defense, because I can't relate cartoonish cre-
ativity to good, combative game play." Thank goodness Japanese play-
ers could (since many Japanese are anime freaks, anyway).
And finally:
> Plus it still needed a deeper gameplay system. Everything in that
> game was a chain combo. It wa like the VS series but bound to the
> ground.
Darkstalkers had *skill* chains. The timing on them was tight,
like non-Alpha 1 Street Fighter. It was not possible to interrupt
a normal move at any time, unlike the Marvel games.
> Vampire Savior was nice, but a CPS3 DS would be even better.
Why? You didn't care for the series on CPS2; what is it about
CPS3 that would improve the game, for you, especially when you know
(I hope) that SF3 is worse than *all* of the CPS2 Street Fighters
(except, perhaps, Alpha 1)?
> Oh well, let me stop rambling. because this entire respond is totally
> unorganized and come fully equipped with poor grammar and punctuation.
Yes. Let you stop.
--
/|__Milo D. Cooper____EverQuest character modeler__|\
\| home.san.rr.com/mdcooper/ www.everquest.com |/
Vong (Shinji) Sundara
Ultima wrote:
> Vong (Shinji) Sundara wrote:
>
> > Definitely!!! It's sooooooo much better for several reasons.
>
> For some reason, I find this repeated use of the word "soooooooo" to be
> extremely annoying. I don't know why... >:(
Hmmm, I would use SO to punctuate it but soooooo gives it
a little different definition.
>
>
> > 1) Character design in this game is fabulous. I use over half
> > of the characters (something I've never done with a game
> > other than SF2: Turbo which I think is the best SF of all
> > time, even better than ST but that's just my opinion). Alpha
> > lacked this (I barely wanted to use 1/5 of the characters
> > after trying them
>
> [slash]
>
> Hmmm... I like the Alpha bunch myself (no more or less than the ST
> batch). There are really only a few characters I'm not too keen on using
> (like Birdie, and others who I used to like just keep getting castrated
> like Bison and Adon :( ). And of course, Shotos are a no-no. At this
> stage, I don't even like using Sagat. And I don't like Chun Li (never
> did since she lost her old Air SBK). Hmmm.. That's eigth right there.
> Anyone else I'll use at any given time (how well I play them is another
> question though ;)
>
> Examples, hmmmmm, they basically
> > destroyed Dhalsim, loss of priority in every direction, slower
> > walking speed but he was always slow, his fireball doesn't
> > reachf full screen and his drill punch and kick (jump up and
> > hold down plus a punch or kick) was altered to make it more
> > controllable but instead they made it weaker.
>
> Oh, you don't play more than 1/5th the characters because they weakened
> one? Makes sense...
I said that that was only one of the examples, not the only reason.
Let's see who else they killed, nearly ALL of the returning characters
like Dhalsim, Zangief, Chun-Li (air blocks killed her air priority, her
fireball had a LONG delay time, rising kicks almost ALWAYS
double-hit, and so on), Birdie (who thought of this stupid character),
Rose (she was much better in Alpha 1 because of chains), Guy (same
reason as Rose), Akuma (crappy air fireball but I think he deserved to
be toned down a bit) and so on. The only somewhat new character
I like was Evil Ryu.
>
>
> > 2) The original ideas in this game are sooooo plentiful for
> > its time that it's weird. Let me list the things that this game
> > introduced to the world: Air blocking,
>
> Nope. I've been informed that Time Killers was actually the first one to
> use air-blocking. Capcom just made it popular.
Really? I never knew it had air blocking but then again I've
only played it once.
>
>
> > chain combos,
>
> Not sure... Probably the chains as we know them. Which came first? XCOTA
> or DS1?
Darkstalkers came first (in my city at least), not sure about
in US.
>
>
> > air combos (limited though),
>
> Er, do air combos count as another type of juggle? If so, then MK (no, I
> don't like it; but give credit where credit is due) had them long before
> any Capcom game.
No no no, I don't mean juggles. I don't think this game even had
juggles at all. I mean Marvel Super Heroes type air chain combos
(try it, it actually does work in this game) but the most you'll
get is 2 to 3 hits).
>
>
> super moves (it came out
> > before ST if you'll remember) called EX Specials,
>
> Yeah, but SNK's had them for years...
Really? Then what game introduced supers? I don't
remember SNK games having them before Darstalkers
but then again, I'm not an SNK fan outside of the
fabulous King of Fighters series (I HATE Samurai
Shodown, why do people like those stupid dial-a-combo
3D wannabe combos that are stupid in 3D games also,
bad damage control but that was fixed a little bit in SSD4,
Nakoruru was the coolest though).
>
>
> > ES Specials (like the EX Specials in 2i),
>
> This was new.. Actually no: World Heroes hard one example, sortof: Hanzo
> and Fuuma's single star and double star... :p
No, I don't think that really counts as an ES Specialbut then again, that
one's up to personal opinion since
it didn't take up a super bar but it was a slightly advanced
version of the special move.
>
>
> > pursuit attacks (first ever for a 2D game) in the sequel,
>
> Attacks that hit on the ground? yeah, probably...
>
> > dark powers,
>
> What? A lot of the Dark Powers could easily have been implemented as
> supers IMO. The idea of giving them extra abilities was brought over
> from SF3, I think...
Okay, I'll agree on that. Dark Powers did sort of suck.
>
>
> > and on and on and on. It's not even funny how original
> > the Darkstalkers games are. A CPS-3 Darkstalkers
> > would be heavenly.
>
> No argument there. I too would like a more serious overtone, but it
> would be nice to at least look at.
Seriousness would be nice but I think the charm of the
characters needs to be kept. I don't want them to take
out all of the humour.
>
>
> > I love this game much more than SF3 but I have to still put
> > it a step below SF2 Turbo but still higher than ST because
> > SF2 Turbo was just the best, I used EVERY character
> > competitively (I don't mean tournament competitions or
> > anything, I mean against other good players, I was comfortable
> > with EVERY character and this was the only game that did
> > that).
>
> Well, I don't know about you, but it as the only Sf game I played for
> three years (little access to anything new that was good). Given time,
> you can become familiar with all the characters in any game. Whether you
> actually WANT to is another story: Hf has that over ST - For the life of
> me, I still can't ever muster the need to properly learn the likes of
> Dee Jay, Fei Long and Cammy (T.Hawk has some potential with Mexican
> Typhoon). Blanka I no longer find interesting; neither Sagat (in fact, I
> think I've falled out "uppercut brothers altogether), and I still don't
> play Shotos. I just plain don't like them. In HF, all the characters
> (save the shotos) I liked to play at any time. But after threee years, I
> couldn't take it anymore.. :\
I agree, HF is the longest-lasting SF game. ST was good but many of the
characters were weakened (but I can't complain since they also had the
regular Super versions of them in there as well). I actually still play HF
from time to time on my Super when I get sick of Alpha 2 Gold (I only
play that game for Akuma mode nowadays but I hate waiting for it to
load again but I win or lost to him).
- Shinji's SF Battleground
"http://www.escape.ca/~vssun"
Ultima
Vong (Shinji) Sundara wrote:
> Ultima wrote:
> > Vong (Shinji) Sundara wrote:
> > > Definitely!!! It's sooooooo much better for several reasons.
> >
> > For some reason, I find this repeated use of the word "soooooooo" to be
> > extremely annoying. I don't know why... >:(
>
> Hmmm, I would use SO to punctuate it but soooooo gives it
> a little different definition.
Well, there are more than two words to convey the meaning that you're
looking for you know.
[SLASH!]
> > Oh, you don't play more than 1/5th the characters because they weakened
> > one? Makes sense...
>
> I said that that was only one of the examples, not the only reason.
> Let's see who else they killed, nearly ALL of the returning characters
> like Dhalsim,
Yep.
> Zangief,
Yep.
> Chun-Li (air blocks killed her air priority, her
> fireball had a LONG delay time, rising kicks almost ALWAYS
> double-hit, and so on),
Uhm, she's ranked either No.1 or No.2 in that game, while in every other
version of SF she's never been top tier. What's the problem?
> Birdie (who thought of this stupid character),
He's from SF1 - he was great against hapless shotos.
> Rose (she was much better in Alpha 1 because of chains), Guy (same
> reason as Rose),
Rose is still incrdibly strong in SFA2. Guy was toned way down, but he
was still fun to play (IMO). Just not top tier any more.
> Akuma (crappy air fireball but I think he deserved to
> be toned down a bit) and so on.
They purposelytoned him down because he was readily selectible.
> The only somewhat new character I like was Evil Ryu.
My sincerest condolences.
> > > 2) The original ideas in this game are sooooo plentiful for
> > > its time that it's weird. Let me list the things that this game
> > > introduced to the world: Air blocking,
> >
> > Nope. I've been informed that Time Killers was actually the first one to use air-blocking. Capcom just made it popular.
>
> Really? I never knew it had air blocking but then again I've
> only played it once.
It was news to me too. :\
> > > chain combos,
> > Not sure... Probably the chains as we know them. Which came first? XCOTA or DS1?
>
> Darkstalkers came first (in my city at least), not sure about
> in US.
Can't remember myself. I think DS actually. But chains aren't exactly an
innovation that will go down as one of Capcom's better ideas anyway...
> > > air combos (limited though),
> > Er, do air combos count as another type of juggle? If so, then MK (no, I don't like it; but give credit where credit is due) had them long before any Capcom game.
>
> No no no, I don't mean juggles. I don't think this game even had
> juggles at all. I mean Marvel Super Heroes type air chain combos
> (try it, it actually does work in this game) but the most you'll
> get is 2 to 3 hits).
SF2T had some limited air combos as well, like Ryu's jumping
Roundhouse-->Air HK.
> > super moves (it came out
> > > before ST if you'll remember) called EX Specials,
> > Yeah, but SNK's had them for years...
> Really? Then what game introduced supers? I don't
> remember SNK games having them before Darstalkers
> but then again, I'm not an SNK fan outside of the
> fabulous King of Fighters series
AoF technically had the first real "super move" (The HaohShoken I
believe). The first game to make them available with a super meter for
everyone was SS2 I think.
(I HATE Samurai Shodown, why do people like those stupid dial-a-combo
> 3D wannabe combos that are stupid in 3D games also,
> bad damage control but that was fixed a little bit in SSD4,
> Nakoruru was the coolest though).
Excuse me? You obviously haven't played a real SS (read: SS1 and SS2).
Judging the SS series based on SS4 (which I presume is what you're
referring to with "dial-a-combo", and yes, they're very bad, though I
don't understand what you mean by "3D wannabe") is like basing the
entire SF series on SFA1. SS2 was phenomenal (not flawless though),
easily one of the best fighters of all time.
> > > ES Specials (like the EX Specials in 2i),
> > This was new.. Actually no: World Heroes hard one example, sortof: Hanzo and Fuuma's single star and double star... :p
>
> No, I don't think that really counts as an ES Special but then again, that one's up to personal opinion since it didn't take up a super bar but it was a slightly advanced version of the special move.
Yeah, we could probably discount that one. ^_^
> > > pursuit attacks (first ever for a 2D game) in the sequel,
> > Attacks that hit on the ground? yeah, probably...
> > > dark powers,
> > What? A lot of the Dark Powers could easily have been implemented as
> > supers IMO. The idea of giving them extra abilities was brought over
> > from SF3, I think...
>
> Okay, I'll agree on that. Dark Powers did sort of suck.
I didn't find so. They were oay.. just nothing that special.
> > > and on and on and on. It's not even funny how original
> > > the Darkstalkers games are. A CPS-3 Darkstalkers
> > > would be heavenly.
> >
> > No argument there. I too would like a more serious overtone, but it
> > would be nice to at least look at.
>
> Seriousness would be nice but I think the charm of the
> characters needs to be kept. I don't want them to take
> out all of the humour.
Oh no. They don't have to. Actually, if they could keep the story
serious and the game humorous, that would be fine ^_^
> > > I love this game much more than SF3 but I have to still put
> > > it a step below SF2 Turbo but still higher than ST because
> > > SF2 Turbo was just the best, I used EVERY character
> > > competitively (I don't mean tournament competitions or
> > > anything, I mean against other good players, I was comfortable
> > > with EVERY character and this was the only game that did
> > > that).
> > Well, I don't know about you, but it as the only Sf game I played for
> > three years (little access to anything new that was good). Given time, you can become familiar with all the characters in any game. Whether you actually WANT to is another story: Hf has that over ST - For the life of me, I still can't ever muster the need to properly learn the likes of Dee Jay, Fei Long and Cammy (T.Hawk has some potential with Mexican Typhoon). Blanka I no longer find interesting; neither Sagat (in fact, I think I've falled out "uppercut brothers altogether), and I still don't play Shotos. I just plain don't like them. In HF, all the characters (save the shotos) I liked to play at any time. But after threee years, I couldn't take it anymore.. :\
> I agree, HF is the longest-lasting SF game. ST was good but many of the characters were weakened (but I can't complain since they also had the regular Super versions of them in there as well).
And certain characters were strengthed (like my favourites Bison and
Vega). You win some, you lose some. :)
[slash]
Mark Zedaker
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net wrote:
> Brian Fischer wrote:
> >
> > last night i played Sf3 for about the tenth time
> > this morning i busted out Darkstalkers for my Saturn and i had a blast,
> > i think this game is much better than sf3
>
> Heh...I coulda told you that, if you mean DarkStalkers 1. :)
>
> Many people keep forgetting how good DS1 was and is. It ranks up there
> with ST in terms of gameplay, despite the chain combos.
DarkStalkers 2 was better than SF3, also. Duh.
Mark Zedaker
Ultima wrote:
> Vong (Shinji) Sundara wrote:
>
>
[snippity snip snip]
> > chain combos,
>
> Not sure... Probably the chains as we know them. Which came first? XCOTA
> or DS1?
DS1 came out a WHILE before COTA.
>
>
> > air combos (limited though),
>
> Er, do air combos count as another type of juggle? If so, then MK (no, I
> don't like it; but give credit where credit is due) had them long before
> any Capcom game.
No, he means jump-in style air combos, where you hit a grounded
opponent more than once before hitting the ground, not juggles. And AFAIK,
it *was* first to do this.
> > pursuit attacks (first ever for a 2D game) in the sequel,
>
> Attacks that hit on the ground? yeah, probably...
I think Raptor was the only one to have a persuit in DS1, but I'm not
sure. DS2 is when EVERYONE got one.
That's all.
Everett
I agree with it all.
VGO Ken wrote:
>
> ::sigh::
> I can't help but get involved in this arguement. Somehow I feel I'll be
> getting in over my head again, but I really don't care, cause this is *I M O*.
> Heh, there.
>
> See, DS1, to me, was a great game. So was SF3.
> But if I measured them together, there's no way I'd pick DS over SF3. For so
> many reasons. Not just b/c SF3 is more modern, either. Here are my reasons
> why DS1 wasn't "superior":
>
> 1. Chain Combos
> I don't care whether they required skill or not in this game....almost every
> character, if not every character had them, and they were a shameless way to
> add on hits and damage into a combo. Skill involved? Yes, but I had the
> timing down pat for most guys within an hour of training....pathetic.
>
> 2. Loose Gameplay
> The only Capcom games wilder than DS are the Marvel games. DS had some pretty
> massive attacks, some being very hard to counter and some being very hard to
> even avoid.
>
> 3. Too much borrowed off SF
> The whole game layout was directly ripped off from SF....when I first played
> the game, I thought it was basically the SFs turned into monsters at night time
> (thus the name "Night Warriors" rather than "World Warriors").
>
> 4. Some characters too easy to play
> Some characters (Talbain, Demitri, Morrigan) were way too easy to play with
> their low-risk moves and unbelievable advantages over the other characters.
> Not only that, but all three did great damage and were fast, too.
>
> That about sums up my reasons why DS isn't as great as some say. I'd still
> rather SF3 any day of the week......
>
> _______________
> "Ken"
> Vortex Gaming Online
> Senior Editor/Game Counselor
> www.vortexonline.com
> "Your best teacher in life, are your own mistakes."
druc...@palmnet.net
Everett wrote:
> hmmm, I'd have to disagree. Darkstalkers was always too wild for my
> tastes.
Wild? What's so wild about it? I had a total blast playing it! Sure it was
wried but I loved the game plot and format because it was new and fresh!
> Demetri and Morrigan were the only people I could deal with.
> Everyone else is crazy. You press strong or forward and the character goes
> into some funky animation and you don't even want to press thefierce or
> roundhouse buttons. Total craziness. Street Fighter on the
> other hand is a bit more down to earth. You press fierce and one punch
> flies, not some funky ball and chain like Hsien-Ko.
Uhm.... Hsien-Ko has a normal punch.
>
>
> I liked the premise out DS but I just couldn't get into how wild
> everything was. Plus it was really childish. Demetri, Donovan, and
> J.Talbien, were the only characters that were taken seriously.
I found the others fun, not chlidish.
> After those guys it seems like Capcom just became desperate for monsters
> to put in the game. Think about some of the character designs. Robot,
> Alien, Catwoman. Come on now, they could have done better than this.
> Vampire, Werewolf, Succubus, and Vampire Hunter were all pretty cool.
So was Zombie, Merman, ghost, and a few more.
> Maybe they should have stuck another vamp in there.
> If DS had a "darker" edge to it, I think I would have really gotten
> intoit. Plus it still needed a deeper gameplay system.
Deeper!? Damn it what more do you want!? DS had a better visable plot, unquie
charcters, good moves. And no ryu clones damnnit!
> Vampire Savior was nice, but a CPS3 DS would be even better.
>
And make it cheezy like SF3? No.
> Oh well, let me stop rambling. because this entire respond is totally
> unorganized and come fully equipped with poor grammar and punctuation.
Ahhh... fine with me.
VGO Ken
Vong (Shinji) Sundara
I only have one question left. Way down there you
said that ST had air combos (which it did) but did it
come before Darkstalkers? Not in my city at least.
Anybody know this answer?
Vong (Shinji) Sundara
VGO Ken wrote:
> ::sigh::
> I can't help but get involved in this arguement. Somehow I feel I'll be
> getting in over my head again, but I really don't care, cause this is *I M O*.
> Heh, there.
>
> See, DS1, to me, was a great game. So was SF3.
> But if I measured them together, there's no way I'd pick DS over SF3. For so
> many reasons. Not just b/c SF3 is more modern, either. Here are my reasons
> why DS1 wasn't "superior":
Don't forget that DS is five (I think but I'm not sure) years old.
>
>
> 1. Chain Combos
> I don't care whether they required skill or not in this game....almost every
> character, if not every character had them, and they were a shameless way to
> add on hits and damage into a combo. Skill involved? Yes, but I had the
> timing down pat for most guys within an hour of training....pathetic.
SF3 has chains also but I do believe that there was skill at that time(it was the
first one to have it). It was neat at the time and I still don't
mind it too much.
>
>
> 2. Loose Gameplay
> The only Capcom games wilder than DS are the Marvel games. DS had some pretty
> massive attacks, some being very hard to counter and some being very hard to
> even avoid.
That was the difference with the SF games, it was much more offensivelygeared.
Don't forget there were guard reversals to counter and I don't
remember any massive attacks (nothing like in the vs. games anyways).
>
>
> 3. Too much borrowed off SF
> The whole game layout was directly ripped off from SF....when I first played
> the game, I thought it was basically the SFs turned into monsters at night time
> (thus the name "Night Warriors" rather than "World Warriors").
I'll admit that this is what I thought when I first played it but it had so
manythings original (see my other postings) that you can't call it a clone. Also
the
character designs were very fresh at the time.
>
>
> 4. Some characters too easy to play
> Some characters (Talbain, Demitri, Morrigan) were way too easy to play with
> their low-risk moves and unbelievable advantages over the other characters.
> Not only that, but all three did great damage and were fast, too.
Easy to learn, hard to master (against good competition that is) which iswhat
fighting games should be about. Also, I love the offensive rushing
patterns for nearly all of the characters. This game was fast paced but
still strategic. And low-risk moves for Dmitri and Morrigan? Not that
I know of... (specials you mean, right?)
>
>
> That about sums up my reasons why DS isn't as great as some say. I'd still
> rather SF3 any day of the week......
Although DS is much much older, I'd still give it the edge. I actually liked
SF3unlike most people from this newsgroup. Why? Strategic but still fun gameplay,
great character design, a bigger emphasis on regular attacks without compromizing
special moves' effectiveness, and originality (including the humor).
Milo D. Cooper
> VGO Ken wrote:
>
> ::sigh::
> I can't help but get involved in this arguement. Somehow I feel I'll be
> getting in over my head again, but I really don't care, cause this is *I M O*.
> Heh, there.
Don't think that that declaration makes you immune to any level
of criticism. Let's get started:
> See, DS1, to me, was a great game. So was SF3.
> But if I measured them together, there's no way I'd pick DS over SF3. For so
> many reasons. Not just b/c SF3 is more modern, either. Here are my reasons
> why DS1 wasn't "superior":
>
> 1. Chain Combos
> I don't care whether they required skill or not in this game....almost every
> character, if not every character had them, and they were a shameless way to
> add on hits and damage into a combo. Skill involved? Yes, but I had the
> timing down pat for most guys within an hour of training....pathetic.
There was nothing wrong with DS's chains, because they were only a little
easier to do than those in Street Fighter, and because it generally wasn't
possible to remove one-fourth to one-half of an opponent's KO meter after
connecting with them.
> 2. Loose Gameplay
> The only Capcom games wilder than DS are the Marvel games. DS had some pretty
> massive attacks, some being very hard to counter and some being very hard to
> even avoid.
Like any fighting game. Nothing new here.
> 3. Too much borrowed off SF
> The whole game layout was directly ripped off from SF....when I first played
> the game, I thought it was basically the SFs turned into monsters at night time
> (thus the name "Night Warriors" rather than "World Warriors").
Street Fighter happens to have one of the greatest gaming engines ever
devised. What's wrong with emulating *that*? If SF3 had been truer to the
engine of its predecessor, it might have been worth playing, instead of a
major flop. Originality isn't always a good thing; give me derivative-but-
good over original-but-bad any day.
> 4. Some characters too easy to play
> Some characters (Talbain, Demitri, Morrigan) were way too easy to play with
> their low-risk moves and unbelievable advantages over the other characters.
> Not only that, but all three did great damage and were fast, too.
Darkstalkers is among the least offensive of Capcom's fighters in this
category. Dealing with the three "easy" characters in DS was nothing com-
pared to fighting SF3's ridiculously overpowered chain-meisters, Yun,
Yang, and Ibuki. Necro was a serious b*tch, too, with his soporific,
brain-dead turtle power and unholy supers. Speaking of which, supers were
temporary in DS; if you didn't use one when it became available, you lost
it after a few seconds, so chain-into-super was pretty much a non-issue,
unlike air chain -> ground chain -> you-hou or suchlike. Anakaris pretty
much slapped the shoto monsters around like they were his little b*tches,
and there was always Victor to put Talbains back into their places; by
contrast, Yun and Yang beat the horsepucky out of virtually everyone in
SF3, and Ibuki is nearly as bad. And finally, DS didn't have 100% damage
combos and infinites, while SF3 did (Ryu, Oro, Ibuki, Dudley -- am I for-
getting anyone?), and on top of that, the infinites were even simpler than
Marvel infinites. This *alone* is probably enough to disqualitfy SF3 as a
good game.
Castellan
Mark Zedaker <ch...@home.com> writes:
>teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net wrote:
> DarkStalkers 2 was better than SF3, also. Duh.
Although DS Part Un was arguably a better game than Nightwarriors/DS2,
I'll always prefer the latter for one reason alone: Huitzil/Phobos. Whatta
scrub-killer he was - cheese madness! Between the floating and the variable
freeze rays, what Demitri/Morrigan RyuKen witling could hang, eh?
I hear Huitzil/Phobos is gonna be in the Saturn version of VS - any
truth to that? I'm hoping so; I really dug his animation and it'd be nice
to see it untarnished by frame cuts. I'd also appreciate the opportunity
to stuff a certain Jedah player, DS2-style...;)
--- ---
Douglas L. Erickson - ECN Computer Publications and Training Specialist
mail to: dou...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu --- http://www.ecn.ou.edu/~douglas
--- ECN does not, in any way, sponsor or endorse my rabid opinions. ---
-- "No-one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence --
-- of the American public." - H. L. Mencken --
Castellan
vgo...@aol.com (VGO Ken) writes:
>::sigh::
>I can't help but get involved in this arguement. Somehow I feel I'll be
>getting in over my head again, but I really don't care, cause this is *I M O*.
>Heh, there.
>See, DS1, to me, was a great game. So was SF3.
>But if I measured them together, there's no way I'd pick DS over SF3. For so
>many reasons. Not just b/c SF3 is more modern, either. Here are my reasons
>why DS1 wasn't "superior":
>1. Chain Combos
>I don't care whether they required skill or not in this game....almost every
>character, if not every character had them, and they were a shameless way to
>add on hits and damage into a combo. Skill involved? Yes, but I had the
>timing down pat for most guys within an hour of training....pathetic.
Yeah, and most people have parrying down in the same amount of time,
and, a day later, have option select worked into their game plan. I'll take
tricky chains with reasonable damage over parrying/OS ANY day.
>2. Loose Gameplay
>The only Capcom games wilder than DS are the Marvel games. DS had some pretty
>massive attacks, some being very hard to counter and some being very hard to
>even avoid.
Such as? I'm trying my d*mndest to think of a "massive, difficult-to-
counter" attack in the original DS, and I'm coming up blank. Anakaris' Snake
Arms could be a pain, but hell, that's Anakaris all around. All the other
"big" attacks, like Yeti Boy's Frost Beam EX and Rikuo's Fountain EX were
predictable and easy to counter. The original DS emptied your Super bar the
instant you used a special (it became an ES), so there was none of the
Super emphasis latter-day SF sequels have.
>3. Too much borrowed off SF
>The whole game layout was directly ripped off from SF....when I first played
>the game, I thought it was basically the SFs turned into monsters at night time
>(thus the name "Night Warriors" rather than "World Warriors").
What, and SF3 *isn't*? Come ON.
>4. Some characters too easy to play
>Some characters (Talbain, Demitri, Morrigan) were way too easy to play with
>their low-risk moves and unbelievable advantages over the other characters.
>Not only that, but all three did great damage and were fast, too.
*cough* Yun/Yang *cough*
Obviously, you haven't played DS enough if you think Demitryu, Talbain,
and Morriken are the "best." A good Anakaris or Bishamon will crush any one
of them utterly - the key word there being "good." You won't become a good
Anakaris player overnight; you'll really need to rethink your playing style
to master him. However, with DS, mastering an unusual character like Anakaris
is quite rewarding (unlike SF3 and, say, Oro) - you could crush any Demitryu/
Morriken player effortlessly with Sarcophagus traps and superlative positional
play. I should know; local players will testify that I'm one of the better
(if not the best) Morrigan player in the area, and I bit it hard against the
local Anakaris master. (Yes, OKC/Norman actually had some top-notch DS play)
Gamest rankings and strategy guides will also confirm both Anakaris and
Bishamon as the top-tier DS combatants. DS is the ultimate game of
pixie-squash, where a coupla big boys actually rule the roost. Hell, even
the Squid Kid, Rikuo, was better than the aforementioned pixies, IMHO, what
with his variable charge attacks and high-priority normals.
>That about sums up my reasons why DS isn't as great as some say. I'd still
>rather SF3 any day of the week......
DS may not be great in your opinion, but the flaws you've enumerated
are certainly less than those in SF3 and SF3:2I, that's certain...
Dark Schneider
> DS1 is better than SF3
> DS1 is about equal to ST (in my books!)
> DS1 is better than any xmen/marvel/vs game
> ST is better than SFZ2/SFZ2' (gold to some!)
> ST is hard, not like alot of todays games. If you miss timeda combo or anything, bye
> bye half damage against almost any character!
Depended on the mistake, who you were, and who your opponent was... but, in general, the potential for
damage off a whiff was SOOO much greater. Although in Z2, stand up, lose 40-100% (based on Level and
opponent). Plus, 3 + "vs. shit" have infinites to punish certain mistakes.
> DS1 had original gfx for the time, something new and colorful, not another
> streetfighter....
<cha-ching>
1) ST/HF
2) Z2'/Z2
3) DS (Chains aren't as ridiculous, "Special" meter implemented well, was pretty tough on Level 8)
4) VS (Not vs., Vampire Savior... I'm in love with the new character designs... plus they got rid of Pyron)
5) 2I (Boring as hell... and far too many Y/Ys, but it's got Hugo)
6) VH
7) All other SFs
8) Gem Fighter (Only played it once)
9) Cyberbots (Played it in the arcade twice... have the Saturn version)
10) All the Marvel games (MSH, CoTA, XSF, MvC, MSF in that order)
I have no idea why I just did that...
--
Dark Schneider
"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity.
Of course, I'm not sure about the former." - Einstein
"You lucky trunks"
"Get ready to giftwrap a beautiful package" - Ep.#815, Agent for H.A.R.M
SF Code 5.0:
(Z+ S(SFA2,SSF2T)>+ K+ G(SF2HF) Bd(SFA) Hg)
[ac- ch- cn c+ cc- 2- g+ m n+:+ o+ os+ !p r-(+ vs. ARK)
s sp-- st ta- tm-: th- tr-:-- v+]
Brian Chan
"Milo D. Cooper" <mdco...@san.rr.com> writes:
>brain-dead turtle power and unholy supers. Speaking of which, supers were
>temporary in DS; if you didn't use one when it became available, you lost
>it after a few seconds, so chain-into-super was pretty much a non-issue,
>unlike air chain -> ground chain -> you-hou or suchlike. Anakaris pretty
Not to mention that you also lost your super after a special. There
weren't very many supers in DS that actually comboed after a chain anyways.
>SF3, and Ibuki is nearly as bad. And finally, DS didn't have 100% damage
>combos and infinites, while SF3 did (Ryu, Oro, Ibuki, Dudley -- am I for-
Felicia and Bishamon had infinites, but they were so difficult to do
it was pretty much a non-issue.
VGO Ken
>Don't think that that declaration makes you immune to any level
>of criticism.
Oh no no no no no, I was *expecting* criticism. }:)
>There was nothing wrong with DS's chains, because they were only a little
>easier to do than those in Street Fighter, and because it generally wasn't
>possible to remove one-fourth to one-half of an opponent's KO meter after
>connecting with them.
True, but they still did hefty damage, for example, after you would chain into
an EX move. I'm sure that it did over a quarter damage if you popped in a lil
EX Shadow Blade into Morrigan's horrendous dash-in, get behind you chains. I
see where you're coming from, as in it was nowhere near as bad as the VS games
with chains.
>> 2. Loose Gameplay
>> The only Capcom games wilder than DS are the Marvel games. DS had some
>pretty
>> massive attacks, some being very hard to counter and some being very hard
>to
>> even avoid.
>
> Like any fighting game. Nothing new here.
However, some attacks in DS didn't fit the style. It's almost like having ST
with beam supers and full screen attacks that aren't counterable, which IMO
ruins some gameplay. Like just about every one of Anakaris' attacks,
Sasquatch's and Huitzil's beam supers, and massive EX fireballs that sometimes
could act as air defense (Morrigan, Demitri).
>Street Fighter happens to have one of the greatest gaming engines ever
>devised. What's wrong with emulating *that*? If SF3 had been truer to the
>engine of its predecessor, it might have been worth playing, instead of a
>major flop. Originality isn't always a good thing; give me derivative-but-
>good over original-but-bad any day.
I don't just mean gameplay. Everything from the character select to the boss
system was taken from ST, even to the near-identical look of the Super Meter.
>Darkstalkers is among the least offensive of Capcom's fighters in this
>category.
That's a point against it right there....(for me, at least).
>Dealing with the three "easy" characters in DS was nothing com-
>pared to fighting SF3's ridiculously overpowered chain-meisters, Yun,
>Yang, and Ibuki.
While not centering around three main characters a la SF3, there were still
some massive imbalances in DS that annoyed me. Besides that, those three SF3
characters may have been over powered, but they were still beatable with most
characters (non-charge move characters). Just took a little defense and
patience. Most the same in DS, I suppose.....except the imbalances were more
spread out.
>Necro was a serious b*tch, too, with his soporific,
>brain-dead turtle power and unholy supers.
Comparable to Anakaris....also even Victor to some.
>Speaking of which, supers were
>temporary in DS; if you didn't use one when it became available, you lost
>it after a few seconds, so chain-into-super was pretty much a non-issue,
Non-issue? I disagree. Most Morrigan players go right for a fake-out or
dash-in, then chain into EX Shadow Blade. My point is that they did exist,
just were less a problem.
>Anakaris pretty
>much slapped the shoto monsters around like they were his little b*tches,
Hee, hee, hee, I like that one....
>Yun and Yang beat the horsepucky out of virtually everyone in
>SF3, and Ibuki is nearly as bad.
True, but everyone besides chargers and Hugo stood a chance. Well, I already
spoke of this beforehand in this post.
>And finally, DS didn't have 100% damage
>combos and infinites, while SF3 did (Ryu, Oro, Ibuki, Dudley -- am I for-
>getting anyone?), and on top of that, the infinites were even simpler than
>Marvel infinites. This *alone* is probably enough to disqualitfy SF3 as a
>good game.
Well, I can't see anyone using those glitch infinites in a tourney or true
display of skill unless they really don't want to get respect for their
accomplishments. I don't count infinites as a bad thing....who uses them
serious anyways? C'mon.
VGO Ken
>Yeah, and most people have parrying down in the same amount of time,
>and, a day later, have option select worked into their game plan. I'll take
>tricky chains with reasonable damage over parrying/OS ANY day.
Scrubs *can't* work parries into their gameplan.....and they have no idea what
Option Select is. It's the experts that ruined SF3 by abusing parries. Too
bad.
>Such as? I'm trying my d*mndest to think of a "massive, difficult-to-
>counter" attack in the original DS, and I'm coming up blank.
Jon Talbain's has many low-risk moves, so does Demitri, Anakaris, Morrigan,
hell, almost everyone does. The EX fireballs are crazy, also.
>What, and SF3 *isn't*? Come ON.
SF3 didn't borrow it's whole damn layout on another game. DS copied off of ST.
>*cough* Yun/Yang *cough*
I'd die of lung collapsing if I coughed for all of the character imbalances
there were in DS.
>Obviously, you haven't played DS enough if you think Demitryu, Talbain,
>and Morriken are the "best."
I never said they were the "best", they just all had insane low-risk moves and
were too easy to use.
>DS may not be great in your opinion, but the flaws you've enumerated
>are certainly less than those in SF3 and SF3:2I, that's certain...
Well, it is my opnion and certainly not fact. I love DS, it's a great game,
it's just that I didn't like the gameplay or layout as much as SF3. I don't
know why, I just do......
Dark Schneider
> True, but they still did hefty damage, for example, after you would chain into
> an EX move. I'm sure that it did over a quarter damage if you popped in a lil
> EX Shadow Blade into Morrigan's horrendous dash-in, get behind you chains. I
> see where you're coming from, as in it was nowhere near as bad as the VS games
> with chains.
In DS1, they did rather paltry damage (especially when compared to "vs. shit" or Vampire Savior), plus
could not be linked into specials after the 2nd ground hit. (Unlike Wolverine's full 6-hit air-chain, into 4
or 5-hit ground chain into 4 or 5 hit super jump dialing magic series into dive into fatal claw... BOOO-RING)
> However, some attacks in DS didn't fit the style. It's almost like having ST
> with beam supers and full screen attacks that aren't counterable, which IMO
> ruins some gameplay. Like just about every one of Anakaris' attacks,
> Sasquatch's and Huitzil's beam supers, and massive EX fireballs that sometimes
> could act as air defense (Morrigan, Demitri).
Which is why there were dashes, tons of air moves and air ESs, and limited air-block. Besides, "grab
my legs" :) and "Soo-ru fi-suto" were hardly uncounterable, plus did practically no damage if you took
just the 1st hit (which was what usually happened anyways).
> >Street Fighter happens to have one of the greatest gaming engines ever
> >devised. What's wrong with emulating *that*? If SF3 had been truer to the
> >engine of its predecessor, it might have been worth playing, instead of a
> >major flop. Originality isn't always a good thing; give me derivative-but-
> >good over original-but-bad any day.
>
> I don't just mean gameplay. Everything from the character select to the boss
> system was taken from ST, even to the near-identical look of the Super Meter.
But the gameplay is the only thing that's important, and the Vampire series has enough originality and
bizarre designs to set it apart from SF. The non-cancelling projectiles, Anakaris (gameplay-wise), dashing
and air-blocking (new for Capcom at that time), plus EX Specials (not just powered up versions of normal
moves, which were actually seperate).
> >Dealing with the three "easy" characters in DS was nothing com-
> >pared to fighting SF3's ridiculously overpowered chain-meisters, Yun,
> >Yang, and Ibuki.
>
> While not centering around three main characters a la SF3, there were still
> some massive imbalances in DS that annoyed me. Besides that, those three SF3
> characters may have been over powered, but they were still beatable with most
> characters (non-charge move characters). Just took a little defense and
> patience. Most the same in DS, I suppose.....except the imbalances were more
> spread out.
More specific. Specific match-ups, perhaps? I can think of no incredibly wide gaps. A good Y/Y wipes
out anyone who can't keep up speed-wise, and has DISTINCT advantages over anyone outside of the top tier. (in
1I, Ibuki.. in 2I, Alex and Gouki) Guys like Anakaris, Aulbath, and Demetri (I wouldn't, but the partially
invincible dash helps) are all tough, but very beatable. (Also, like in ST, most characters have an equalizer)
> >Necro was a serious b*tch, too, with his soporific,
> >brain-dead turtle power and unholy supers.
>
> Comparable to Anakaris....also even Victor to some.
Vic? Nah. Specials have too much vulnerability to turtle effectively. Anakaris most certainly had some
humorous turtle potential.
> Non-issue? I disagree. Most Morrigan players go right for a fake-out or
> dash-in, then chain into EX Shadow Blade. My point is that they did exist,
> just were less a problem.
Yeah, but if a Morrigan player goes immediately for a fake-out or dash-in every time, they're
predictable, and will be effectively countered and beaten. His point was you weren't going to get in a ES or
EX Special every time you built up your meter, because in order to use meter effectively, you often times have
to wait things out and wait for proper positioning and a good opening. If you miss, you eat crow.
> True, but everyone besides chargers and Hugo stood a chance. Well, I already
> spoke of this beforehand in this post.
Ryu/Ken get wiped out. Elena gets parried, then wiped out. Yang can c.short, c.forward, RekkaKen Hugo
all day. I've only ever seen one REALLY good 2I Oro in life, so I can't say. The only folks who have ever
competed with Y/Y are Gouki, Alex, and Ibuki (with the occasional Necro).
> Well, I can't see anyone using those glitch infinites in a tourney or true
> display of skill unless they really don't want to get respect for their
> accomplishments. I don't count infinites as a bad thing....who uses them
> serious anyways? C'mon.
You'd be amazed. Ibuki + Dudley's infinites were both easy enough to do in competition consistently.
Vong (Shinji) Sundara
Why does everybody say Darkstalkers was too
wild. I don't believe so. It was actually pretty
down to earth (not compared to SF but compared
to nearly every other game out there). It relied a
lot on using the dash as part of your offensive strategy
and I liked that. It was also very original.
Another thing is why do some people say that Darkstalkers
is the least offensive of all Capcom's games? Have they
played it? With rushing attack characters that are in the
top tier (Bishamon, etc.) and Morrigan (who I think is top
tier but no one else agrees), this game is VERY offensive
and quick paced while still having defence as a big part
of strategy.
Oh, and the "people" I am referring to are the replies to
the original post (there were too many people to write
down their names).
John E Larkspur
: > The only somewhat new character I like was Evil Ryu.
You, sir, are a traitor to the cause of fighting game innovation.
: > > > 2) The original ideas in this game are sooooo plentiful for
: > > > its time that it's weird. Let me list the things that this game
: > > > introduced to the world: Air blocking,
: > >
: > > Nope. I've been informed that Time Killers was actually the first
: > > one to use air-blocking. Capcom just made it popular. : >
: > Really? I never knew it had air blocking but then again I've
: > only played it once.
Yep. I played it alot. On a bigscreen. I played anything back then.
: > > > chain combos,
: Can't remember myself. I think DS actually. But chains aren't exactly an
: innovation that will go down as one of Capcom's better ideas anyway...
Well, it depends how you define it. If it's just chaining a normal
attack with another normal attack for a guaranteed combo, then the
original World Heroes had those. You could do light punch, light kick,
heavy punch (and maybe even some heavy-heavy stuff, it's been awhile).
But then, you could also do light punch, light punch, light punch, etc,
so if you want you could make a case that it was unintentional. Of course,
so were 2-in-1's, but that's another topic.
WH1 was also the first to have missed throw animation (common
misunderstood to be DS2's).
: > > > air combos (limited though),
: > > Er, do air combos count as another type of juggle? If so, then MK
MK2 really, unless you count punch-freeze-punch-freeze type stuff.
: > No no no, I don't mean juggles. I don't think this game even had
: > juggles at all. I mean Marvel Super Heroes type air chain combos
: > (try it, it actually does work in this game) but the most you'll
: > get is 2 to 3 hits).
: SF2T had some limited air combos as well, like Ryu's jumping
: Roundhouse-->Air HK.
Or just go back to original SF2 Chun Li and the headstomp (or could you
not hit multiple times with it until later?)
: > > super moves (it came out
: > > > before ST if you'll remember) called EX Specials,
: AoF technically had the first real "super move" (The HaohShoken I
: believe). The first game to make them available with a super meter for
: everyone was SS2 I think.
AoF also already had 3 levels in its meter (green, yellow, red). AoF1
had another 'super move' (to use Capcom terminology) in the Ryobu Rampage,
which is approximately what you see when you do a Ryo DM in KoF.
Fatal Fury 2 added the desperation attack, which is a sort of 'super', but I
think AoF1 was out first, and FF2 didn't have a separate meter.
On a side note, I find it rather interesting that the Capcom meters favor
the player who attacks the most, while Fatal Fury/SamSho favor the player
who gets attacked the most. I personally advocate the AoF/KoF meter,
which can be incorporated into any fighting style, with the added option
that both players can agree to MAX it at the start or not MAX it at all
the entire match (for you anti-super types). They just need to remove
the small block-charge gain in KoF.
: (I HATE Samurai Shodown, why do people like those stupid dial-a-combo
: > 3D wannabe combos that are stupid in 3D games also,
Because people are stupid. Otherwise, the Marvel games wouldn't be the
most popular fighting game series. If you want more people to play your
game, you have to add stupid things, and unfortunately SNK didn't have a
big userbase to begin with.
: SS2 was phenomenal (not flawless though),
: easily one of the best fighters of all time.
While we're on the subject, SS2 had the first parry/guard breaker.
: > > > ES Specials (like the EX Specials in 2i),
This is AoF again. If your meter is empty, you get the sort of
fireball that Dan parodies. If it's full, you get a haohshokohken that
eats other fireballs and kills you, like Demitri's 'Grab My Legs!'
: > > > pursuit attacks (first ever for a 2D game) in the sequel,
Oh come now, does that mean Toshinden is innovative for adding super
meters to a polygon game?
: > > > and on and on and on. It's not even funny how original
: > > > the Darkstalkers games are. A CPS-3 Darkstalkers
: > > > would be heavenly.
Not really. The most original things DS added were attack types, such
as... well basically everything Anakaris did minus the transformations
(that'd be Mizuki's calling card). Rikuo's dashing game was unique. Air
dashing was a legit, if not overly imaginative, innovation. Morrigan's
variable dashes. Some good ideas taken from MK (Bishamon). Lots of
little things within most of the characters, basically. They also put
alot of effort into giving very unusual animation to old-style moves
(i.e. the Big Brunch), which is unheard of in a Capcom game. They even
have supers which don't just recycle animation from old moves and add
blue shadows.
: > > No argument there. I too would like a more serious overtone, but it
: > > would be nice to at least look at.
: >
: > Seriousness would be nice but I think the charm of the
: > characters needs to be kept. I don't want them to take
: > out all of the humour.
I personally don't care for the game's goofiness, but it's nice to
have an alternative. God forbid some corporate suit decides we want all
Marvel designs, all the time. The key to the longevity of fighting games
is the same as that for the human species: variety.
: "If you were stuck on a deserted island, and you could only
: choose between MK and SF to be stuck with, and you choose MK,
: then you deserve to be on that island" - Slasher Quan
On the contrary, MK cabinets were more sturdily constructed.
I could build a better raft after breaking an MK machine into small pieces.
Lark
VGO Ken
>In DS1, they did rather paltry damage (especially when compared to "vs. shit"
>or Vampire Savior), plus
>could not be linked into specials after the 2nd ground hit.
DS1 was in our arcades for a very short time, so I prefer not to divulge into
this discussion WAY over my head, but I will say that I surely remember people
doing a weak, medium, EX Shadow Blade chain that did pretty mad damage (due to
damage settings). Oh, and if it counts, I play the PS DS sometimes as well,
but that is a poor game (on PS).
>Which is why there were dashes, tons of air moves and air ESs, and limited
>air-block. Besides, "grab
>my legs" :) and "Soo-ru fi-suto" were hardly uncounterable, plus did
>practically no damage if you took
>just the 1st hit (which was what usually happened anyways).
Yes, true.......but still, the gameplay needed tweaking in that sense (to me,
at least). There aren't any SF3 moves that you must take a hit to move in....
>But the gameplay is the only thing that's important, and the Vampire series
>has enough originality and
>bizarre designs to set it apart from SF.
Agreed. Plenty of innovation, but I think Capcom went a tad overboard on this
series (making so many incarnations of it). They should'nt have made DS2
(wasn't different enough), maybe just stuck with VS.....
>More specific. Specific match-ups, perhaps? I can think of no incredibly wide
>gaps.
There were no "incredible" wide gaps that I can think of, either. Just gaps
like people previously mentioned in this thread *defending* DS over SF3. But
the disadvantages were worse than, say, ST, which had ways of getting past your
trouble opponents.
>A good Y/Y wipes
>out anyone who can't keep up speed-wise, and has DISTINCT advantages over
>anyone outside of the top tier.
Partially true, but I can keep up speed-wise not a problem ;-D
Has DISTINCT advantages over SOME characters not in top tier. All Hugo has to
do to beat a Yun/Yang? In corner, parry one hit, throw into corner, infinite.
Desperation? Yes, but if it's what ya gotta do.....
>His point was you weren't going to get in a ES or
>EX Special every time you built up your meter, because in order to use meter
>effectively, you often times have
>to wait things out and wait for proper positioning and a good opening. If you
>miss, you eat crow.
I just realized that perhaps the reason it is so popular here is that it is so
much like ST. And it is......you can't deny it. One instance of Capcom
bringing back an old game in heavy camoflauge that worked in luring in players.
>Ryu/Ken get wiped out. Elena gets parried, then wiped out. Yang can c.short,
>c.forward, RekkaKen Hugo
>all day.
Ryu/Ken have a damn good chance against Y/Y, don't count them out that easy.
Keep up with the fast pace, and a GOOD Ryu/Ken can keep the Y/Y at bay and win.
Elena? I'm sick of defending her, plus a good parry-artist, like you said,
makes short work of her.
Hugo? If they really keep trying to trap you with Yang like that, block that
one attack pattern, and throw infinite.
>I've only ever seen one REALLY good 2I Oro in life
I didn't know such a thing existed, chargers in SF3 stink....turtlers, all of
'em.
>You'd be amazed. Ibuki + Dudley's infinites were both easy enough to do in
>competition consistently.
Yes, but would someone stoop to using them on another? C'mon.....if they did,
they'd have to be pretty low. (Please, "I", don't come in on this damn argument
with your "hard-core" tourny attitude and say that infinites in tournies are
fine, b/c I don't care)
Ultima
Mark Zedaker wrote:
> Ultima wrote:
>
> > Vong (Shinji) Sundara wrote:
[SLASH!]
> > > air combos (limited though)
> > Er, do air combos count as another type of juggle? If so, then MK (no, I don't like it; but give credit where credit is due) had them long before any Capcom game.
> No, he means jump-in style air combos, where you hit a grounded
> opponent more than once before hitting the ground, not juggles. And AFAIK, it *was* first to do this.
If that's the definition, then SF2T had it first - Ryu, Ken and Chun Li
could all perform two or three hit combos entirely in the air. Actually,
it might even be before that if Chun Li's super deep Stomp-->jumping
roundhouse worked in CE or WW. DS would just have been the first to
allow everyone to do air combos.
> > > pursuit attacks (first ever for a 2D game) in the sequel,
> >
> > Attacks that hit on the ground? yeah, probably...
>
> I think Raptor was the only one to have a persuit in DS1, but I'm not sure. DS2 is when EVERYONE got one.
Which came out first: DS2 or XCOTA? I think the latter had a couple
characters with moves that could hit you while you were on the ground (I
believe Colossus was one.. really not sure).
Stilt Man
In article <19980316020...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
VGO Ken <vgo...@aol.com> wrote:
>1. Chain Combos
>I don't care whether they required skill or not in this game....almost every
>character, if not every character had them, and they were a shameless way to
>add on hits and damage into a combo. Skill involved? Yes, but I had the
>timing down pat for most guys within an hour of training....pathetic.
I never really cared about chains much. They were around for a few characters
in SF2 (Chun Li, Cammy, and Ryu being the most obvious, but Bison had one or
two in CE and Vega had a bunch throughout) and as a result they just didn't
bother me.
>2. Loose Gameplay
>The only Capcom games wilder than DS are the Marvel games. DS had some pretty
>massive attacks, some being very hard to counter and some being very hard to
>even avoid.
You can play a control game in DS, just as you can in Marvel. You just have a
bit more pressure on you to keep your cool.
>3. Too much borrowed off SF
>The whole game layout was directly ripped off from SF....when I first played
>the game, I thought it was basically the SFs turned into monsters at night time
>(thus the name "Night Warriors" rather than "World Warriors").
That's worth a laugh.
>4. Some characters too easy to play
>Some characters (Talbain, Demitri, Morrigan) were way too easy to play with
>their low-risk moves and unbelievable advantages over the other characters.
>Not only that, but all three did great damage and were fast, too.
Sasquatch and Anakaris had their advantages to, although they weren't as
low-rent. Morrigan actually wasn't that easy to play straight off of a
Shotoklone mentality, because her fireballs were too slow to release and
move (still are, actually... this is one reason I've never considered her
a Shoto really). Between that and the low-sweeping cape (which was wonderful
for close-up annoyance of Demitris, because it went right under his FBs) and
other things, Morrigan was more of a close-up character, which took some
work right there.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
< We are Microsoft Borg '98. Lower your expectations and >
< surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
< Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
< technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
< will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
VGO Ken
>Which came out first: DS2 or XCOTA? I think the latter had a couple
>characters with moves that could hit you while you were on the ground (I
>believe Colossus was one.. really not sure).
XCOTA came out first.......
Yeah, and Colossus had a pursuit attack in that game (good luck connecting,
though).
BTW who here thought the COTA engine beats the modern Marvel engine? I mean,
COTA had a lot less scrubbiness going in it....
One more thing: what ever happened to the kick-ass falling through levels
stages in COTA? I loved how in Spiral's stage you'd keep breaking levels over
and over....the only modern stage to utilize that is the Cop scene in Marvel
vs. SF. And Shuma Gorath's MSH stage was great....no corner traps, infinite
playing space! SWEET!
Ultima
Milo D. Cooper wrote:
[SLASH!]
I' not getting into the original argument. I just have a few questions.
> > 1. Chain Combos
> > I don't care whether they required skill or not in this game....almost every character, if not every character had them, and they were a shameless way to add on hits and damage into a combo. Skill involved? Yes, but I had the timing down pat for most guys within an hour of training....pathetic.
>
> There was nothing wrong with DS's chains, because they were only a little easier to do than those in Street Fighter,
Which version of SF?
> and because it generally wasn't possible to remove one-fourth to one-half of an opponent's KO meter after connecting with them.
Well, having never played (hell, barely even SEEN DS - it was *nowhere*
back home, so you're not blaming that one on me) DS, I remember flipping
through a Gamefan Stretgy Guide a while back and seeing numerous combos
that did between 30 and 50% damage - all chains. Either GF played with
the damage settings on full, or something is wrong.
[SLASH]
> > 3. Too much borrowed off SF
> > The whole game layout was directly ripped off from SF....when I first played the game, I thought it was basically the SFs turned into monsters at night time (thus the name "Night Warriors" rather than "World Warriors").
>
> Street Fighter happens to have one of the greatest gaming engines ever devised. What's wrong with emulating *that*?
At the time, people were kinda getting sick of same-old, same-old (and
of course, Super killed it for nearly everybody). Nothing wrong with
emulating the engine, but why bother making an entirely different game
if you're going to use the same mechanics? They should have concentrated
on making the next SF better, IMO.
> If SF3 had been truer to the engine of its predecessor, it might have been worth playing, instead of a major flop.
Not necessarily - critics would probably have accused it as being the
same-old thing, and still consider it a disappointment. *shrug*
> Originality isn't always a good thing; give me derivative-but- good over original-but-bad any day.
Yep.
> > 4. Some characters too easy to play
> > Some characters (Talbain, Demitri, Morrigan) were way too easy to play with
> > their low-risk moves and unbelievable advantages over the other characters.
> > Not only that, but all three did great damage and were fast, too.
>
> Darkstalkers is among the least offensive of Capcom's fighters in this category. Dealing with the three "easy" characters in DS was nothing compared to fighting SF3's ridiculously overpowered chain-meisters, Yun, Yang, and Ibuki. Necro was a serious b*tch, too, with his soporific, brain-dead turtle power and unholy supers.
Well, extremely powerful characters and gross-mismatches have existed
before (Vega, Bison and Balrog in ST for example). The couldn't chain
though, I'll give them that. I don't know how Jon, Demitri and Talbain
compare to those guys though.
BTW, Necro can be played aggresively and still be a bitch... Slam Dance
just does *so* much damage :(
> Speaking of which, supers were temporary in DS; if you didn't use one when it became available, you lost it after a few seconds, so chain-into-super was pretty much a non-issue, unlike air chain -> ground chain -> you-hou or suchlike.
Oh, like in SS2... ^_^
[snip]
> And finally, DS didn't have 100% damage combos and infinites, while SF3 did (Ryu, Oro, Ibuki, Dudley -- am I for- getting anyone?),
Ken supposedly. He was supposed to have an infinite, but I know he had a
100% damage combo (sortof).
> and on top of that, the infinites were even simpler than
> Marvel infinites. This *alone* is probably enough to disqualitfy SF3 as a good game.
What about 2I, with the 100% damage and infinites removed? (for the old
guys anyway, though HUgo's infinite seems like a non-inssue most of the
time). Also, "good" is lagrely relative...
*We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate - BTW, the only
reason I wouldn't play DS over Sf3 - cause I don't feel like it ^_^*
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net
Mark Zedaker wrote:
>
>
> DarkStalkers 2 was better than SF3, also. Duh.
Where would I be without you, Mark? :)
Of course DS2 was better than SF3. However, if THAT'S also true, then
there's only one logical statement that we can make:
The whole DarkStalkers series is better than SF3.
Afterall, DS2 and DS3 are about the same in terms of quality.
All, IMHO, of course.
Oh yeah, one more thing, though: All of the music is the bomb, though.
:)
Wishing you peace, love, and righteousness, it's.....
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Onaje Everett
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net |
|
|
| E-mail me for FAQs, files, and, of course, combos.
:) |
|
|
| Meaning- "The Sensitive One" Nicknames- "Fresh O.J.", "The
Juice" |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "I can do (not some...) ALL things through Christ, who strengthens
me." |
| -Phillipians
4:13 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
May the peace of Christ be with you.
Ultima
Vong (Shinji) Sundara wrote:
>
> I only have one question left. Way down there you
> said that ST had air combos (which it did) but did it
> come before Darkstalkers? Not in my city at least.
> Anybody know this answer?
[SLASH!]
Hmmm... I never said ST had air com2bos (though it did), and I looked
through my post to check - I said Sf2T (as in the original Turbo, aka
HF) had a few air-combos. Ken and Ryu could 2-in-1 their air HKs, and
CHun Li has this need little 3 hit air combo - super deep Stomp, jumping
roundhouse, Air SBK. No other air combos come to mind for SF2T though..
*Racks brain* And yes, ST did come out before DS. IIRC ST was the last
SF game Capcom made before they started releasing "other" (read: non-sf)
fighters.
Ultima
druc...@palmnet.net wrote:
>
> Everett wrote:
[SLASH!]
> > Vampire Savior was nice, but a CPS3 DS would be even better.
> And make it cheezy like SF3? No.
Er, what do you mean by cheesy? Graphics-wise? No sir, I disagree -
imagine DS characters animated like in SF3. That would truly be a sight
to see, as DS characters are more naturally animated than their SF
counterparts.
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net
VGO Ken wrote:
>
>
> >Such as? I'm trying my d*mndest to think of a "massive, difficult-to-
> >counter" attack in the original DS, and I'm coming up blank.
>
> Jon Talbain's has many low-risk moves, so does Demitri, Anakaris, Morrigan,
> hell, almost everyone does. The EX fireballs are crazy, also.
Talbain had NO low-risk moves in DS1. If you did ANYTHING, he was open
for counter-attack. Same thing with Demitri, Anakaris (though his Snake
Arms were hard to counter, but they came out slow), and Morrigan (except
for the Valkyrie Turn, another OBVIOUS EX move).
As for EX fireballs, only if you didn't jump them...and they were
jumpable.
> >Obviously, you haven't played DS enough if you think Demitryu, Talbain,
> >and Morriken are the "best."
>
> I never said they were the "best", they just all had insane low-risk moves and
> were too easy to use.
I remember back when my friend, Harry Leung, used to play me in DS1 and
try to FB-DP trap me with Morrigan. Do you know how OPEN Morrigan is
when she throws a Soul Fist? Same thing with Demitri. There is simply
NO WAY a decent player should lose to a scrubby Demitri or Morrigan. NO
WAY at all. Never happened to me, for sure.
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net
Dark Schneider wrote:
>
> > True, but they still did hefty damage, for example, after you would chain into
> > an EX move. I'm sure that it did over a quarter damage if you popped in a lil
> > EX Shadow Blade into Morrigan's horrendous dash-in, get behind you chains. I
> > see where you're coming from, as in it was nowhere near as bad as the VS games
> > with chains.
>
> In DS1, they did rather paltry damage (especially when compared to "vs. shit" or Vampire Savior), plus
> could not be linked into specials after the 2nd ground hit.
Not true in DS1. In DS1, ANY part of the chain could be interrupted.
However, this was balanced by the fact that most specials didn't combo
when you used chains.
> (Unlike Wolverine's full 6-hit air-chain, into 4
> or 5-hit ground chain into 4 or 5 hit super jump dialing magic series into dive into >fatal claw... BOOO-RING)
Ah....you've played some creative dialers, I see. :) Of course, when
*I* actually play him, it's the only way to go.
And, to VGO Ken, you mean, "Who DOESN'T use infinites in tournament
play?" The answer:
"The people that don't know them."
When you're playing in a tournament, winning is the ONLY thing. If it's
in the game, it's in the game...and you USE it. There is no talk about
honor or cheapness. It's win or lose. Period.
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net
VGO Ken wrote:
>
> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
> >Street Fighter happens to have one of the greatest gaming engines ever
> >engine of its predecessor, it might have been worth playing, instead of a
> >good over original-but-bad any day.
>
> system was taken from ST, even to the near-identical look of the Super Meter.
>
> >category.
>
Everybody note that VGO Ken said that innovation is much better than
having something that already works...and quite taking this part of
Milo's response OUT OF CONTEXT.
Milo knows, like I know, that there's WAY more reason to be offensive in
DS1 than there is in SF3. For one, the meter is handled MUCH better in
DS1. If you charge it and then turtle hoping to connect a super, you'll
lose that super after a while. Turtling just plain didn't work in DS.
In SF3, however, you pretty much have to turtle because parries are so
easy to do, so easy to follow up, and so risk-free. Furthermore, if you
charge your meter and then turtle in SF3, you'll always have that super
available to use (preferrably after a parry, but a combo will do).
This thread actually reminded me of an idea I once had regarding the
meter for the Alpha series....and I think this idea was just typed up
recently by somebody else.
What if the meter constantly decreased at about 2 pixels a second and
made it increasingly difficult to keep your meter charged as you got
higher levels charged? So, for instance, you'd have a meter that looks
just like the Alpha super meter, but with another section added on after
Level 3 and as long as you meter stays above the Level separator, you'd
have Level 3. However, as you got further up on the meter, the drain
would increase to about 4 pixels for Level 2 and 6 pixels for Level 3.
I dunno...this idea would have to be played around with and tested in
order to achieve the right balance.
Oh yeah...and you DON'T keep your charge into the next round. (How
would you do that when a considerable amount of time HAS to pass in
between rounds to revive the K.O.'ed fighter?) :)
Any opinions? (Milo's gonna agree with me. Watch.) :)
BTW, VGO...where ARE these mismatches that you keep bringing up? If
you're sure about your opinion and you wanna convince people, it might
be a good idea to give evidence and not just keep saying "There are
wide-spread mismatches in DS1." I, for one, disagree with you....so
convince me.
Ultima
John E Larkspur wrote:
>
> Ultima (ult...@concentric.net) wrote:
> : Vong (Shinji) Sundara wrote:
>
> : > The only somewhat new character I like was Evil Ryu.
>
> You, sir, are a traitor to the cause of fighting game innovation.
ENT!
[SLASH!]
> : > > > chain combos,
> : Can't remember myself. I think DS actually. But chains aren't exactly an innovation that will go down as one of Capcom's better ideas anyway...
> Well, it depends how you define it. If it's just chaining a normal
> attack with another normal attack for a guaranteed combo, then the
> original World Heroes had those. You could do light punch, light kick,
> heavy punch (and maybe even some heavy-heavy stuff, it's been awhile).
> But then, you could also do light punch, light punch, light punch, etc,
> so if you want you could make a case that it was unintentional.
Did the timing matter? I never played the arcade version, and the SNES
version I only played fo a day (we need something after umpteen months
of nonstop SF2T ^_^)
> Of course, so were 2-in-1's, but that's another topic.
And no landing animation, right? ;)
> WH1 was also the first to have missed throw animation (common
> misunderstood to be DS2's).
True. Although Super SF2 had it before DS as well (with Z's SPD). But
then again, WH had a separate button to throw.. :\
> : > > > air combos (limited though),
> : > > Er, do air combos count as another type of juggle? If so, then MK
>
> MK2 really, unless you count punch-freeze-punch-freeze type stuff.
They weren't any stuff like jump-in--> special move in MK1? I keep
thinking about Liu Kang's Jump Kick (pick one)-->Flying Kick combo (uh,
it was there right?). BUt come to think about it, you had to be on the
ground to do it.. it just _looked_ like it took place entirely in the
air.. Hmmmm...
> : > No no no, I don't mean juggles. I don't think this game even had
> : > juggles at all. I mean Marvel Super Heroes type air chain combos
> : > (try it, it actually does work in this game) but the most you'll
> : > get is 2 to 3 hits).
>
> : SF2T had some limited air combos as well, like Ryu's jumping
> : Roundhouse-->Air HK.
>
> Or just go back to original SF2 Chun Li and the headstomp (or could you not hit multiple times with it until later?)
You could, but it didn't combo really - you could block after the first
hit most of the time (though I'm not sure if she did it super deep -
might have worked on Zangief or Sagat).
> : > > super moves (it came out
> : > > > before ST if you'll remember) called EX Specials,
> : AoF technically had the first real "super move" (The HaohShoken I
> : believe). The first game to make them available with a super meter for everyone was SS2 I think.
>
> AoF also already had 3 levels in its meter (green, yellow, red). AoF1 had another 'super move' (to use Capcom terminology) in the Ryobu Rampage, which is approximately what you see when you do a Ryo DM in KoF.
> Fatal Fury 2 added the desperation attack, which is a sort of 'super', but I think AoF1 was out first, and FF2 didn't have a separate meter.
But SS2 did have a separate meter. I suppose it was the first to have
supers for everybody. ^_^ Desperations don't count as supers, IMO, cause
they require different circumstances to use.
[slash]
> : (I HATE Samurai Shodown, why do people like those stupid dial-a-combo
> : > 3D wannabe combos that are stupid in 3D games also,
> Because people are stupid. Otherwise, the Marvel games wouldn't be the most popular fighting game series. If you want more people to play your game, you have to add stupid things, and unfortunately SNK didn't have a big userbase to begin with.
Oy. Ent. It's a shame that a game's monetary value depends on it's
scub-friendliness. Doesn't say much for SFA3 :(
> : SS2 was phenomenal (not flawless though),
> : easily one of the best fighters of all time.
>
> While we're on the subject, SS2 had the first parry/guard breaker.
Yeah. Though it wasn't easy to use. To this day I'm still not sure how
it's done :\
[Mostly good points slashed]
> : "If you were stuck on a deserted island, and you could only
> : choose between MK and SF to be stuck with, and you choose MK,
> : then you deserve to be on that island" - Slasher Quan
> On the contrary, MK cabinets were more sturdily constructed.
> I could build a better raft after breaking an MK machine into small pieces.
LOL! That's an original one... Were they really more sturdily built?
Cause I never noticed ( there was a KI around my campus once upon a time
that was rather easy to rip to pieces ;)
--
Ultima
http://www.concentric.net/~Ultima1 - Street Fighter RPG, Final
Fantasy VII, Fan art, and miscellaneous rambling...
SFCode Ver 5.0:
{V+ MB+ Rl+ Cr+[SFA2] I[III]+ Ax[I,III]+}
[ac- +cc+(!ccRl&MB) ch- cn- c m+ 2+ n++ os+ p+ r@++ sp- st ta--
t(t+SCR) tm-- tr-:- th--@- v+(v++SFA2)]
"If you were stuck on a deserted island, and you could only
choose between MK and SF to be stuck with, and you choose MK,
then you deserve to be on that island" - Slasher Quan
"If an arcade doesn't contain some version of SF or SS in it,
Ultima
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net wrote:
[OMNISLASH - no more bickering over DS and SF3; if you want that, go
somewhere else ^_^]
> This thread actually reminded me of an idea I once had regarding the
> meter for the Alpha series....and I think this idea was just typed up
> recently by somebody else.
I know who, but I'm not saying. I'd probably get in trouble again.
> What if the meter constantly decreased at about 2 pixels a second and
> made it increasingly difficult to keep your meter charged as you got
> higher levels charged? So, for instance, you'd have a meter that looks
> just like the Alpha super meter, but with another section added on after Level 3 and as long as you meter stays above the Level separator, you'd have Level 3. However, as you got further up on the meter, the drain would increase to about 4 pixels for Level 2 and 6 pixels for Level 3. I dunno...this idea would have to be played around with and tested in
> order to achieve the right balance.
Well, you could see where it's been done before - The SS series has
always had it. When you meter is charged, you can do your super
repeatedly, but it drains after a few seconds, whether you use it or
not. However, it only drains once it has reached full. Another example,
in TMNT: Tournament Fighter for SNES (now that game ruled, IMO), your
meter slowly drained if you didn't attack (and the meter was LOOOOONG).
The trade off was that most of the super moves did obscene damage (like
Leonardo's doing 90% damage). Even so, some were easy to counter (like
Leo's), and others were easy to avoid. So they weren't necessarily
game-breakers (sometimes, yes).
What is basically boils down to is, how often do you want supers to be
available? In both TF and SS, supers just aren't available readily, with
TF having them with even less readily available. It all depends on what
you want. Personally, I like having the access to the supers - just
adjust them accordingly. Unless the super is a 720, it shouldn't do more
than about 35% damage anyway (stand alone). Let the attacking character
gain *much* more energy than the defending character, and stuff like
that. I might post more on this later, but not now. :)
> Oh yeah...and you DON'T keep your charge into the next round. (How
> would you do that when a considerable amount of time HAS to pass in
> between rounds to revive the K.O.'ed fighter?) :)
I'd keep this feature, actually. Just an opinion.
> Any opinions? (Milo's gonna agree with me. Watch.) :)
About the time-draining feature? Personally, I'd say no (especially if
it means another meter - the screen's getting kinda crowded as it is :p
). I'd rather they adjust the way the super charges for
attacker/defender and the damage done per super accordingly than let it
drain. Just my opinion. Sorry Onaje... :p
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net
Ultima wrote:
>
> druc...@palmnet.net wrote:
> >
> > Everett wrote:
>
> [SLASH!]
>
> > > Vampire Savior was nice, but a CPS3 DS would be even better.
>
> > And make it cheezy like SF3? No.
>
> Er, what do you mean by cheesy? Graphics-wise? No sir, I disagree -
> imagine DS characters animated like in SF3. That would truly be a sight
> to see, as DS characters are more naturally animated than their SF
> counterparts.
Exactly.
Just make sure that the SF3 artists don't get to it. The ART is the
problem with SF3's looks. It's animated nicely, but the art is shoddy.
Hmmm....makes you wonder what SF3 would've looked like if it was done by
the DS artists.
Heh...another edge over SF3 for DS1. The art is better. :)
Man.....I REALLY need to find DarkStalkers 1 somewhere in San
Diego...with people to play it with.
Dark Schneider
> I never really cared about chains much. They were around for a few characters
> in SF2 (Chun Li, Cammy, and Ryu being the most obvious, but Bison had one or
> two in CE and Vega had a bunch throughout) and as a result they just didn't
> bother me.
Links... not chains. Sorry...
Dark Schneider
> DS1 was in our arcades for a very short time, so I prefer not to divulge into
> this discussion WAY over my head, but I will say that I surely remember people
> doing a weak, medium, EX Shadow Blade chain that did pretty mad damage (due to
> damage settings). Oh, and if it counts, I play the PS DS sometimes as well,
> but that is a poor game (on PS).
AHHHH! I refuse to believe I said that!! :) That's NW. My apologies.
> There were no "incredible" wide gaps that I can think of, either. Just gaps
> like people previously mentioned in this thread *defending* DS over SF3. But
> the disadvantages were worse than, say, ST, which had ways of getting past your
> trouble opponents.
Well, if the topic is DS is better than SF3, that's one of the reasons. No wide gaps in character
balance. There were a couple of 7-3 matches... but no horrendous mismatches.
> Partially true, but I can keep up speed-wise not a problem ;-D
> Has DISTINCT advantages over SOME characters not in top tier. All Hugo has to
> do to beat a Yun/Yang? In corner, parry one hit, throw into corner, infinite.
> Desperation? Yes, but if it's what ya gotta do.....
We're not talking about your personal matches. We're talking about as a character. Besides, if YOU are
Hugo and YOU have a Yang pinned against the corner (the setup for the infinite), you're playing a pitiful
Yang. There is NO reason why Yang should be in that corner. Like I said, C. short, c. forward, Rekka Ken is
very tough to beat with Hugo, parry or no parry. Hugo lives and dies by the c. jab. :)
> I just realized that perhaps the reason it is so popular here is that it is so
> much like ST. And it is......you can't deny it. One instance of Capcom
> bringing back an old game in heavy camoflauge that worked in luring in players.
Now you're gettin' it! :) There are much worse games to "emulate".
> Ryu/Ken have a damn good chance against Y/Y, don't count them out that easy.
> Keep up with the fast pace, and a GOOD Ryu/Ken can keep the Y/Y at bay and win.
> Elena? I'm sick of defending her, plus a good parry-artist, like you said,
> makes short work of her.
> Hugo? If they really keep trying to trap you with Yang like that, block that
> one attack pattern, and throw infinite.
Ryu/Ken get wiped out. They don't have the speed, they don't have the god-awful chaining, Tenshin goes
under fireballs. As characters, Ryu/Ken are mediocre in both 3s. That doesn't mean they suck, but when a GOOD
Ryu meets a GOOD Yang, Ryu dies. Elena would be middle tier if parries didn't exist, but they do, so she dies.
And an infinite doesn't bring Hugo out of the bottom tier. Or help him beat Yang. Why? Like I said before, any
seasoned veteran is going to know the setups for infinites, and will avoid getting themselves in that
position.
> I didn't know such a thing existed, chargers in SF3 stink....turtlers, all of
> 'em.
1I Oro was a forced to be reckoned with, thanks to Tengu. But, since Tengu's been castrated, he's not
the one-armed wrecking crew he once was.
> Yes, but would someone stoop to using them on another? C'mon.....if they did,
> they'd have to be pretty low. (Please, "I", don't come in on this damn argument
> with your "hard-core" tourny attitude and say that infinites in tournies are
> fine, b/c I don't care)
You don't have to be "I" to do an infinite in a tournament atmosphere. Tournaments (especially ones
for money.. :) are competitive by nature, and you have one focus... winning. When you're jerking around with
your friends, you laugh, you goof, you don't always play at 100%, you occasionally give out 2nds, in general,
you don't fight incredibly seriously. At a tournament, you win, you ask questions later....
Everett
Well I agree with you here. The meter was alot better in DS1 but all
that ended in DS2 and Vamp Savior. Besides, personally I believe that
Vamp Savior should have been DS2. B.B. Hood still wins the best new
character concept award in my book.
Everett
Well that's what I meant by having DS on CPS3. The animation would be
kick ass. But like I said before and I stand by it, DS was way too
childish. Gameplay wasn't horrible, but for me I just couldn't get past
the goofiness of the game. Sasquatch and other were just too damn
stupid for my tastes but that me and I solve that problem by not playing
the game. End of story.
Krool.
um, why dont you put it to a vote or a ranking system :
DS1 is better than SF3
DS1 is about equal to ST (in my books!)
DS1 is better than any xmen/marvel/vs game
ST is better than SFZ2/SFZ2' (gold to some!)
ST is hard, not like alot of todays games. If you miss timeda combo or anything, bye
bye half damage against almost any character!
DS1 had original gfx for the time, something new and colorful, not another
streetfighter....
Krool.
Zabel is cool
VGO Ken
>Everybody note that VGO Ken said that innovation is much better than
>having something that already works...and quite taking this part of
>Milo's response OUT OF CONTEXT.
Actually I don't recall actually saying that. What I meant that people
probably mistook me for is that SF3 (IMO) is better than DS, and since SF3
innovated, I like innovation over tried-and-true. Not exactly
so.......innovation is great, but like someone said, if the innovation sucks,
then forget about it.......
>Milo knows, like I know, that there's WAY more reason to be offensive in
>DS1 than there is in SF3.
Then why did he say it was one of the least offensive games? I'm confused.
Turtling up with Anakaris sure pays off, that's for sure....
>Turtling just plain didn't work in DS.
'Cept with Anakaris.
>In SF3, however, you pretty much have to turtle because parries are so
>easy to do, so easy to follow up, and so risk-free.
True. But the competition in my area is plain and simply better, and I say
that with pride. Why? Everyone around here are close friends that play
old-school (minimal parries) making the game 2x as enjoyable. Hell, if I
played against the poke&parry experts, I'd have grey hairs and hate the game,
too....
>BTW, VGO...where ARE these mismatches that you keep bringing up? If
>you're sure about your opinion and you wanna convince people, it might
>be a good idea to give evidence and not just keep saying "There are
>wide-spread mismatches in DS1." I, for one, disagree with you....so
>convince me.
1. Puh-leeze don't call me VGO. That is just a lame-ass first section of my
gimpy little AoL SN to symbolize that I'm a staffer for Vortex Gaming Online.
Just call me Ken, or if you want, Gene.
2. Some wide-spread matches? OK, let's see.......
Anakaris vs. Victor
Anakaris vs. Morrigan, Demitri, anyone with Shoto-style moves
Talbain vs. Demitri
Bishamon vs. Talbain
There are just some matches that have distinct imbalances. Victor is too
slow to move on into Anakaris' long reach, and does nothing to get into his
keep-away. Anakaris, to quote a good one from Milo, "Bitch slaps the
Shotokan-like characters", and that's the truth...Talbain is too fast for
Demitri (tested in DS2, not 1, b/c I own 2 for Saturn). My friend and I are of
equal skill, and he literally can't attack my Talbain in that game. Big
advantage over him. Bishamon can turtle up vs. Talbain, and Talbain's WORSE
throw range (worst in the game) can't compare. Hell, any character with good
throw range can turtle Talbain, ya just gotta have reflexes, and good ones.
Well, I'm gonna take a breather and remind you all that I like SF3 over DS in
personal opinion. I'm not engraving it on stone, or forcing my opinions on
you, hell, I respect all of your opinions and I can understand why you like DS1
better. But still, if you love DS, take my opinion with a grain of
salt.......because the main reason I like SF3 more is because of the good
fights we have around here. And Onaje brought up that I want to convince
people. I really don't, I just wanna voice my opinion. : ) Later!
VGO Ken
>Heh...another edge over SF3 for DS1. The art is better. :)
Hmmm.....in actual game fighting, SF3's art was great (IMO). BUT, the
character close-ups were absolutely disgusting. Look at Alex, Ryu (who looks
more Mexican than Japanese), Ken, Sean (who has a total baby face, he's
supposed to look fearsome! Geez!). And more. DS1 had some nice art to it
(all the DS did). I'd give the art advantage to DS slightly, mainly due to bad
portraits.
Castellan
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net writes:
>VGO Ken wrote:
>Talbain had NO low-risk moves in DS1. If you did ANYTHING, he was open
>for counter-attack. Same thing with Demitri, Anakaris (though his Snake
>Arms were hard to counter, but they came out slow), and Morrigan (except
>for the Valkyrie Turn, another OBVIOUS EX move).
Talbain's only advantage was the fact that he could dash and
crawl under non-ES fireballs, and he had no initial lag on his Beast
Rushes. Talbain was good against Demitri and Morrigan, but Anakaris,
Bishamon, Raptor, and Rikuo hammered him.
Speaking of low-risk moves, let's talk about Rikuo...
>As for EX fireballs, only if you didn't jump them...and they were
>jumpable.
>
>> >Obviously, you haven't played DS enough if you think Demitryu, Talbain,
>> >and Morriken are the "best."
>>
>> I never said they were the "best", they just all had insane low-risk moves and
>> were too easy to use.
>I remember back when my friend, Harry Leung, used to play me in DS1 and
>try to FB-DP trap me with Morrigan. Do you know how OPEN Morrigan is
>when she throws a Soul Fist? Same thing with Demitri. There is simply
>NO WAY a decent player should lose to a scrubby Demitri or Morrigan. NO
>WAY at all. Never happened to me, for sure.
Exactly. A scrubby Morrigan player, especially, tries to
FB/DP trap, which is not a Morrigan strength, what with her poor FB
launch time and her medium-priority multi-hit DP. A good Morrigan
works off her variable dashes and plays close, using the
standing RH to "push" the opponent into position for a quick dash
into Shell Kick chain. Even seemingly low-risk moves like the
Valkyrie Turn were fodder if blocked - I ate more Bish ES Iaigiri
Slashes trying to use the Turn as an escape than should be admitted
to. :) Morrigan's really good moves, I believe, were her standing
close fierce, her standing RH, and her low fierce. Her medium was a
great dash-in, especially if you turned it into a Shell Kick and
went for a chain. BTW, I can't remember - could you chain the Doppelganger
EX off of a chain in DS? I know you can in VH (hell, that's a fave of
mine), but I can't recall ever successfully connecting in DS.
Anakaris and Bishamon still rock her world, though. A Morrigan
who plays an inside game can really pressure 'karis, but the man is
just too good at playing keep-away in a pro's hands.
--- ---
Douglas L. Erickson - ECN Computer Publications and Training Specialist
mail to: dou...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu --- http://www.ecn.ou.edu/~douglas
--- ECN does not, in any way, sponsor or endorse my rabid opinions. ---
-- "No-one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence --
-- of the American public." - H. L. Mencken --
Castellan
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net writes:
>BTW, VGO...where ARE these mismatches that you keep bringing up? If
>you're sure about your opinion and you wanna convince people, it might
>be a good idea to give evidence and not just keep saying "There are
>wide-spread mismatches in DS1." I, for one, disagree with you....so
>convince me.
Hm. The only mismatch I can really envision off the top of my
head is Bishamon vs. Sasquatch. I love the Yeti and all, but Bish
can really dominate him. Of course, the 'quatch was one of the lower
(if not the lowest) character on the DS tier system (however, unlike
other C*pc*m titles, he was still eminently usable), and Bish was
one of the best - he could just Iaigiri Slash 'quatch all day and
hammer of him out of jump-ins.
Still, even a reasonably good 'quatch stood a chance if played
well. You can't say the same for Elena or Oro against Y/Y...
Brian Chan
douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (Castellan) writes:
>went for a chain. BTW, I can't remember - could you chain the Doppelganger
>EX off of a chain in DS? I know you can in VH (hell, that's a fave of
>mine), but I can't recall ever successfully connecting in DS.
Yes. Soul Fist, dashing strong, Shell Kick, standing jab, Darkness
Illusion. 20 hits. Fun to beat up the computer with if nothing else.
Standing close RH, Darkness Illusion also comboed.
John E Larkspur
Castellan (douglasBE...@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu) wrote:
: teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net writes:
: >VGO Ken wrote:
: >Talbain had NO low-risk moves in DS1. If you did ANYTHING, he was open
: >for counter-attack. Same thing with Demitri, Anakaris (though his Snake
: >Arms were hard to counter, but they came out slow), and Morrigan (except
: >for the Valkyrie Turn, another OBVIOUS EX move).
I could use jab beast rush against most characters without fear of
immediate retribution.
: Talbain's only advantage was the fact that he could dash and
: crawl under non-ES fireballs, and he had no initial lag on his Beast
: Rushes.
Not true, JT's dash sends him on a flying leap, perfectly positioned
to eat any sort of projectile. The only way for him to get under
fireballs was to walk forward; if he backed off he'd proximity block, and
if he ducked he'd stick his backside in the air. Since his body is long
and it takes him awhile to clear a slow projectile, this would be risky
at short-medium range. JT does have a short startup lag on his jab beast
rush (this is DS1), to offset the quicker recovery.
: Talbain was good against Demitri and Morrigan, but Anakaris,
: Bishamon, Raptor, and Rikuo hammered him.
I always loved JT-Felicia fights, except that Felicia had all the
normal move priority. Bishamon didn't hammer anyone except Victor until
DS2. If you're forced to fight a good Anakaris, JT is actually one of
the better choices. He moves under those mummy hands and serpent arms,
and has maybe the fastest dash startup if Anakaris tries coffin drop traps.
Once you get inside you alternate jab beast rushes, low medium kicks, and
dash-in throws (since Anakarais has no close throws) which leap nicely
over his low kicks. oh, and floating is obviously completely out of the
question. Rikuo, on the other hand, did indeed eat JT's lunch. So did
Sasquatch. With Raptor, turtle up and beast rush when he throws out a
long attack or a special.
Needless to say, DS2's crouching strong was a huge help for formerly
difficult matchups.
If you want my opinion, the real tragedy of DS is that the goofy
presentation turned off most of the hardcore players capable of mastering
the non-traditional characters (by far the strength of DS). If you look
at this newsgroup, there are WAY too many people who know how to play
Morrigan well, and you see very little about anybody else. I say this
because I myself am one of the people who just couldn't get into the
Anakaris/Rikuo/Raptor guys; I only play JT, who's only a notch less
traditional than Morriken or Demitryu, because he was the only one I
could look at and take seriously.
No self-respecting vampire would be caught undead wearing spandex.
(unless he's a Marvel vampire)
(or is calling someone from Marvel a bloodsucker redundant?)
Lark
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net
Everett wrote:
>
> Well that's what I meant by having DS on CPS3. The animation would be
> kick ass. But like I said before and I stand by it, DS was way too
> childish. Gameplay wasn't horrible, but for me I just couldn't get past
> the goofiness of the game. Sasquatch and other were just too damn
> stupid for my tastes but that me and I solve that problem by not playing
> the game. End of story.
I think Captain Commando says it best in one of his win quotes:
"Looks aren't everything. Gameplay is key!"
If you look at the GAMEPLAY, you see that the game plays VERY well.
Heck...if I didn't like childish-looking games, I would've NEVER found
out how fun Bust A Move and Super Puzzle Fighter 2 Turbo were.
Yeah, SOME of the characters in DS1 are childish looking...but that's
the nature of the game. It's a silly game with some dark characters in
it. I think it all fits together nicely, personally. However, all that
would not matter to me if the gameplay sucked.
So, loosen up! Have some fun with ol' Sasquatch and Felicia! Not only
are they fun to play, but they're pretty good too. How can you not like
characters that have jumping roundhouse attacks that hit twice in
mid-air?! :)
Of course, going back to that CapCom quote, why couldn't they apply that
to Marvel vs. Capcom? :( Ah well. COMBO IS THE KEY!! :)
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net
VGO Ken wrote:
> >Milo knows, like I know, that there's WAY more reason to be offensive in
> >DS1 than there is in SF3.
>
> Then why did he say it was one of the least offensive games? I'm confused.
> Turtling up with Anakaris sure pays off, that's for sure....
Ken...read this CLOSELY so that you understand what Milo said.
You were talking about DS as being a clone of ST. Milo then said that,
in terms of being a rehash of a game, DS was one of the least offensive
games IN THAT CATEGORY. So, if you concentrate on what Milo's saying,
you understand that what Milo was saying was that there are more obvious
and worse rehashes out there and that DS shouldn't be put down for being
a rehash. On the contrary, it's a good game.
Now, do you understand? Everybody and their mom has been taking Milo's
statement out of context when all they had to do was read the whole part
of that discussion. I hope you've got it now....'cause I'm tired of
repeating myself.
> >Turtling just plain didn't work in DS.
>
> 'Cept with Anakaris.
Not even with Anakaris. True, he was the best turtle, but he couldn't
counterthrow! That fact alone made it hard for him to turtle against a
good player.
> >In SF3, however, you pretty much have to turtle because parries are so
> >easy to do, so easy to follow up, and so risk-free.
>
> True. But the competition in my area is plain and simply better, and I say
> that with pride. Why? Everyone around here are close friends that play
> old-school (minimal parries) making the game 2x as enjoyable.
Ah! So if you LIMIT yourself, it makes the game better! AHA!! I
understand now!
Ken....bad move. If you have to LIMIT yourself to make a game better,
it obviously means that something's wrong with the game. You evaluate a
game at it's potential, not below it....just like ranking characters.
> Hell, if I
> played against the poke&parry experts, I'd have grey hairs and hate the game,
> too....
And, you know what, Bob Painter is one such player. He also wins more.
He also uses Valle CCs and Alpha Counters. Why? THEY'RE IN THE GAME.
If it's in the game, it's in the game...and you USE it.
> >BTW, VGO...where ARE these mismatches that you keep bringing up? If
> >you're sure about your opinion and you wanna convince people, it might
> >be a good idea to give evidence and not just keep saying "There are
> >wide-spread mismatches in DS1." I, for one, disagree with you....so
> >convince me.
>
> 1. Puh-leeze don't call me VGO. That is just a lame-ass first section of my
> gimpy little AoL SN to symbolize that I'm a staffer for Vortex Gaming Online.
> Just call me Ken, or if you want, Gene.
Sorry. I guessed right, this time. :)
> 2. Some wide-spread matches? OK, let's see.......
> Anakaris vs. Victor
> Anakaris vs. Morrigan, Demitri, anyone with Shoto-style moves
> Talbain vs. Demitri
> Bishamon vs. Talbain
> There are just some matches that have distinct imbalances. Victor is too
> slow to move on into Anakaris' long reach, and does nothing to get into his
> keep-away. Anakaris, to quote a good one from Milo, "Bitch slaps the
> Shotokan-like characters", and that's the truth...
> Talbain is too fast for Demitri (tested in DS2, not 1, b/c I own 2 for Saturn).
I can actually resopnd to this one. DS2 Talbain is WAY easier to play
than DS1 Talbain.
Also, DS2 Demitri is actually slower than DS1 Demitri. So, you see, the
matchup is not the same. IMHO, I've always seen that matchup as being
in Talbain's favor, but Demitri CAN win. In DS1, it's a fairly even
match.
> And Onaje brought up that I want to convince
> people. I really don't, I just wanna voice my opinion. : ) Later!
Well...okay....wrong word to use, but you've got to present facts when
you make a statement. That's all I'm saying.
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net
Castellan wrote:
>
> teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net writes:
>
> >VGO Ken wrote:
> >Talbain had NO low-risk moves in DS1. If you did ANYTHING, he was open
> >for counter-attack. Same thing with Demitri, Anakaris (though his Snake
> >Arms were hard to counter, but they came out slow), and Morrigan (except
> >for the Valkyrie Turn, another OBVIOUS EX move).
>
> crawl under non-ES fireballs,
Well...actually, he just crawled under them. If you dashed, he hopped
forward, and that would put the projectile he wants to avoid right in
his face. Bad...definitely bad. :)
> and he had no initial lag on his Beast
> Rushes.
Actually, he did. It was visible because he reared back before
rushing. It was just really fast. Kinda reminicscent of the Blanka
Ball.
> Talbain was good against Demitri and Morrigan, but Anakaris,
> Bishamon, Raptor, and Rikuo hammered him.
Talbain versus CPU Rikuo used to always rack my brain.
> Speaking of low-risk moves, let's talk about Rikuo...
Heh...he had a few of 'em. :)
> BTW, I can't remember - could you chain the Doppelganger
> EX off of a chain in DS? I know you can in VH (hell, that's a fave of
> mine), but I can't recall ever successfully connecting in DS.
Doppelganger comboed off of a JAB! I used to always do jump roundhouse,
stand jab, Doppelganger. Of course, that was because I was doing the
motion right after the jump-in. :) I'm sure you can combo it like
Akuma's Raging Demon in 2I....in Morrigan's case, that'd be close
fierce....but also any interruptable she has. (If only she could do
that in MvC. Ugh.)
AtchleyBJ
> BTW, I can't remember - could you chain the Doppelganger
>EX off of a chain in DS?
Hmm not sure. I know that after her astral vision ex you can (in
Nightwarriors) after a chain ending in roundhouse. The interrupts in
nightwarriors are fast so I've never been successful with anything but her
close roundhouse interrupt into her Doppelganger. But then again I haven't
played in a while.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-BJ Atchley=-=-=-=-=-=-Minamoto-no-Yoritomo-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
CarAudio-4x4Toyota-Mtxaudio-Denon-HumanWasteProject
KoRn-ratm-LimpBizkit-Prodigy-CrystalMethod-MustardPlug-O'Phil
ChemBros-SkifDank-Deftones-AphexTwin(Richard D. James)-Invaders
OrsonS.Card-L.Niven-D.Eddings-Life-Rappelling-Alto Sax-CTR
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Castellan
jl...@netcom.com (John E Larkspur) writes:
>: Talbain's only advantage was the fact that he could dash and
>: crawl under non-ES fireballs, and he had no initial lag on his Beast
>: Rushes.
> Not true, JT's dash sends him on a flying leap, perfectly positioned
>to eat any sort of projectile. The only way for him to get under
>fireballs was to walk forward; if he backed off he'd proximity block, and
>if he ducked he'd stick his backside in the air. Since his body is long
>and it takes him awhile to clear a slow projectile, this would be risky
>at short-medium range. JT does have a short startup lag on his jab beast
>rush (this is DS1), to offset the quicker recovery.
You're right, and I have no idea why I thought that. We had very few
people playing Talbain, so my experience fighting as/against him is fairly
limited. Still, his c. fierce and the ability to walk under fireballs can make
him fairly effective against Demitri/Morrigan scrubs who like to FB/DP trap.
>: Talbain was good against Demitri and Morrigan, but Anakaris,
>: Bishamon, Raptor, and Rikuo hammered him.
> I always loved JT-Felicia fights, except that Felicia had all the
>normal move priority. Bishamon didn't hammer anyone except Victor until
>DS2. If you're forced to fight a good Anakaris, JT is actually one of
>the better choices. He moves under those mummy hands and serpent arms,
>and has maybe the fastest dash startup if Anakaris tries coffin drop traps.
>Once you get inside you alternate jab beast rushes, low medium kicks, and
>dash-in throws (since Anakarais has no close throws) which leap nicely
>over his low kicks.
Well, a vital part of the coffin trap is using the c. strong to "push"
dashers away and back into position for a buffered mid-range drop. This
trick would stop Morrigan's dash cold, and she had (arguably) the best dash-in
game of all the characters.
Again, you're right on Bishamon - I often confuse the two games, since
they ARE so similar. I played the Saturn DS2 to death the year after DS1 was
big on campus, and it's all a bit of a blur. My apologies. :)
>question. Rikuo, on the other hand, did indeed eat JT's lunch. So did
>Sasquatch. With Raptor, turtle up and beast rush when he throws out a
>long attack or a special.
Rikky was a bastard all-around. If DS had never been prefaced by the
SF2 series, he coulda become a scrub prototype.
> Needless to say, DS2's crouching strong was a huge help for formerly
>difficult matchups.
Yes, but if I'm recalling this correctly, the sacrifice was his
the longer recovery on Beast Rushes, which were a vital part of his arsenal.
The ability to change direction really didn't offset this loss, IMHO.
> If you want my opinion, the real tragedy of DS is that the goofy
>presentation turned off most of the hardcore players capable of mastering
>the non-traditional characters (by far the strength of DS). If you look
>at this newsgroup, there are WAY too many people who know how to play
>Morrigan well, and you see very little about anybody else. I say this
>because I myself am one of the people who just couldn't get into the
>Anakaris/Rikuo/Raptor guys; I only play JT, who's only a notch less
>traditional than Morriken or Demitryu, because he was the only one I
>could look at and take seriously.
I'll admit I started playing Morrigan because I figured out her moves
the quickest (I first started playing DS in a competitive environment), but,
as I began to use her more, I realized she wasn't quite as Shotokan as she
first appeared. First, her DP has to hit deep to be effective, and her FB,
well, sucks. Her strength lies in her dash-in linkups and the power of her
standing RH. Her DP is really only good as buffered combo finisher or as
air defense against characters with low/medium proority normals. Of course,
as I played more DS, I began to gravitate towards Bishamon, and finally
(when DS2 hit the Saturn), to Hsien-Ko and Huitzil, who, when the rare friend
wants to play DS2 these days, I use almost exclusively. Huitzil and Hsien-Ko
are VERY non-traditional - I think this is what really elevates the Vampire
series in my eyes. Even powermongers like Pyron and Bishamon in DS2 weren't
particularly stereotypical in implementation - I think Capcom actually designed
the play around the characters, rather than designing the charcters to fit
a certain play approach, for once. DS is a character-driven game, and I really
like that.
Brian Fischer
Everett wrote:
>
> Well I agree with you here. The meter was alot better in DS1 but all
> that ended in DS2 and Vamp Savior. Besides, personally I believe that
> Vamp Savior should have been DS2. B.B. Hood still wins the best new
> character concept award in my book.
listen, name one time playing Sf3 against the computer when uv actually
had fun? it is borring Ds is innovaive and is all around fun
VGO Ken
>You were talking about DS as being a clone of ST. Milo then said that,
>in terms of being a rehash of a game, DS was one of the least offensive
>games IN THAT CATEGORY. So, if you concentrate on what Milo's saying,
>you understand that what Milo was saying was that there are more obvious
>and worse rehashes out there and that DS shouldn't be put down for being
>a rehash. On the contrary, it's a good game.
K, I see your point.
<most rest of Onaje's post good points>
>Ah! So if you LIMIT yourself, it makes the game better! AHA!! I
>understand now!
>
>Ken....bad move. If you have to LIMIT yourself to make a game better,
>it obviously means that something's wrong with the game.
So what if there's something wrong with it? Heh, if we don't do it, then it
makes it fun. Sure, if I wanted to, I could poke&parry and destroy my friends,
but that would make a boring match. Parries make a boring match, the only
parries should be air parries. And I never said nothing was wrong with
SF3.....it has one major flaw: parries.
>You evaluate a
>game at it's potential, not below it....just like ranking characters
My overall evaluation on SF3 is that it has problems....but doesn't suck. Just
like my overall evaluation of EVERY Capcom game. Except parries were a serious
boo-boo. But personally, I've had more enjoyment with SF3 than any other game
by our friendly, low-parry games. See what I'm getting at? S'all about fun!
>And, you know what, Bob Painter is one such player. He also wins more.
>He also uses Valle CCs and Alpha Counters. Why? THEY'RE IN THE GAME.
>If it's in the game, it's in the game...and you USE it.
Yeah, that's the golden tourney rule. But playing friendly, I hate CCs,
parries, and ACs. In a tournament, you play to win....which, IMO, makes for
very boring fights. And that's why I think the comp in arcades is better.
Friendly games yield better competition, tourny fights yield annoying "who gets
to the infinite first" fights that tire me.
>I can actually resopnd to this one. DS2 Talbain is WAY easier to play
>than DS1 Talbain.
>Also, DS2 Demitri is actually slower than DS1 Demitri. So, you see, the
>matchup is not the same. IMHO, I've always seen that matchup as being
>in Talbain's favor, but Demitri CAN win. In DS1, it's a fairly even
>match.
Hmmm......my friend and I usually opt for my Saturn DS2. Perhaps this week
we'll try the same fights on his PS DS1, and see how it goes. I wasn't aware
Talbain was that much easier in DS2.
>Well...okay....wrong word to use, but you've got to present facts when
>you make a statement. That's all I'm saying.
OK, I'm taking notes :p
VGO Ken
>Besides, if YOU are
>Hugo and YOU have a Yang pinned against the corner (the setup for the
>infinite)
I thought Hugo could throw into any direction, thus making you be able to set
up the infinite if Hugo is in the corner. So they pin you down with the Yang
"Giant Killer" combo? Parry one-hit, grab infinite.......but alas, I may be
wrong if you can't pick with direction to throw.
>Ryu/Ken get wiped out. They don't have the speed, they don't have the
>god-awful chaining,
They do have insane priority Jab DPs, that if timed right, can knock anyone out
of almost anything.....so I'd say it'd be 6/4 in favor of the Olsen twins
(thanks Adam). A GOOD Yand and a GOOD Ryu? Advantage for Yang, yes, but
there's still a good chance, and I surely would't say they get "wiped out"!
>Elena would be middle tier if parries didn't exist, but they do, so she dies.
>
Yup.....
>And an infinite doesn't bring Hugo out of the bottom tier. Or help him beat
>Yang.
True, he's bottom tier for life. But it can help him against Yang, if Yang
makes one mistake.....
>Why? Like I said before, any
>seasoned veteran is going to know the setups for infinites, and will avoid
>getting themselves in that
>position.
True.......I WOULD say that Olsen twin scrubs fall for it, which they do, but
the real threat is the experts that use them. I wish that people that call
themselves "experts" would avoid using top-tier characters.......we'd have a
lot less problems. Capcom probably had them in there for even fights between
scrubs and experts, but instead, some people abuse it. Sure, it's Cap's fault,
but really, I wish more "expers" would use Oro, Urien, Hugo, and others rather
than Y/Y.....oh well.
Milo D. Cooper
> Onaje Everett wrote:
>> VGO Ken wrote:
>>> Onaje Everett wrote:
>>>
>>> Milo knows, like I know, that there's WAY more reason to be offensive in
>>>DS1 than there is in SF3.
>>
>> Then why did he say it was one of the least offensive games? I'm confused.
>> Turtling up with Anakaris sure pays off, that's for sure....
>
> Ken...read this CLOSELY so that you understand what Milo said.
>
> in terms of being a rehash of a game, DS was one of the least offensive
> games IN THAT CATEGORY. So, if you concentrate on what Milo's saying,
> you understand that what Milo was saying was that there are more obvious
> and worse rehashes out there and that DS shouldn't be put down for being
> a rehash. On the contrary, it's a good game.
>
> statement out of context when all they had to do was read the whole part
> of that discussion. I hope you've got it now....'cause I'm tired of
> repeating myself.
Actually, you're both incorrect. I made that remark in response
to Ken's statement that the three fighters in DS whom he believed
composed the game's top tier characters were too powerful. Here is
the actual text:
Ken: "4. Some characters too easy to play
Some characters (Talbain, Demitri, Morrigan) were way too
easy to play with their low-risk moves and unbelievable
advantages over the other characters. Not only that, but
all three did great damage and were fast, too."
Milo: "Darkstalkers is among the least offensive of Capcom's
fighters in this category. Dealing with the three 'easy'
characters in DS was nothing compared to fighting SF3's
ridiculously overpowered chain-meisters, Yun, Yang, and
Ibuki. Necro was a serious b*tch, too..."
To paraphrase what I wrote: with regard to top tier domination,
Darkstalkers is one of the most balanced games ever made. The SF3
series by contrast, are two of the worst.
--
/|__Milo D. Cooper____EverQuest character modeler__|\
\| home.san.rr.com/mdcooper/ www.everquest.com |/
Jeff Jarlett
VGO Ken wrote:
>
> >Ken....bad move. If you have to LIMIT yourself to make a game better,
> >it obviously means that something's wrong with the game.
>
> So what if there's something wrong with it? Heh, if we don't do it, then it
> makes it fun. Sure, if I wanted to, I could poke&parry and destroy my friends,
> but that would make a boring match. Parries make a boring match, the only
> parries should be air parries. And I never said nothing was wrong with
> SF3.....it has one major flaw: parries.
Well, I think air parries and chains are worse than ground parries.
>
> >I can actually resopnd to this one. DS2 Talbain is WAY easier to play
> >than DS1 Talbain.
> >Also, DS2 Demitri is actually slower than DS1 Demitri. So, you see, the
> >matchup is not the same. IMHO, I've always seen that matchup as being
> >in Talbain's favor, but Demitri CAN win. In DS1, it's a fairly even
> >match.
Dmitri vs Talbain is 3.5 to 6.5 by my estimate. Dmitris projectile is
USELESS on Talbain, he can duck it.
All he can do is either turtle (most effective strategy) or become a
grappler (and die trying)
Then again I hate both of those characters. I actually use Morrigan in
DS2 (as an aggressive comboer) and Lilith in DS3. (cause shes unusual)
Occasionally Donovan/Jedah
>
> Hmmm......my friend and I usually opt for my Saturn DS2. Perhaps this week
> we'll try the same fights on his PS DS1, and see how it goes. I wasn't aware
> Talbain was that much easier in DS2.
Hes even easier in DS3, which is pathetic.
Justin Boley
> >
> > >I can actually resopnd to this one. DS2 Talbain is WAY easier to play
> > >than DS1 Talbain.
> > >Also, DS2 Demitri is actually slower than DS1 Demitri. So, you see, the
> > >matchup is not the same. IMHO, I've always seen that matchup as being
> > >in Talbain's favor, but Demitri CAN win. In DS1, it's a fairly even
> > >match.
>
> Dmitri vs Talbain is 3.5 to 6.5 by my estimate. Dmitris projectile is
> USELESS on Talbain, he can duck it.
Dude, he can _walk_ under it, take a break to scratch his fleas, and
combo Demitri at his leisure.
> All he can do is either turtle (most effective strategy) or become a
> grappler (and die trying)
>
> Then again I hate both of those characters. I actually use Morrigan in
> DS2 (as an aggressive comboer) and Lilith in DS3. (cause shes unusual)
I used to like Talbain, but he's getting scrubbier by the game. I liked
Lilith in DS3 kinda, but the pedophilia stuff just made me sick after a
while. S' too bad, she had potential. (Even though I heard rumors of
stupid 100% dmg stuff with Gloomy Puppet Show. Bah.)
<snip>
> > Talbain was that much easier in DS2.
>
> Hes even easier in DS3, which is pathetic.
No kidding. I was happy at first over Million Flicker becoming
comboable for good damage...but the ES does practically a third of a bar
and has entirely too fast recovery. Plus, the invincibility at the
beginning of Mirage Body is bull. I haven't played much DS3, but I got
a fat win streak starting that game fresh as Talbain, and I'm hardly the
hardcore gamer.
--Bulkor
Vong (Shinji) Sundara
Her standing roundhouse is HIGHLY underrated
by most. I can see you use her pretty effectively
(I do nearly exactly what you described, MANY
rush attack patterns).
Castellan wrote:
> teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net writes:
>
> >VGO Ken wrote:
> >Talbain had NO low-risk moves in DS1. If you did ANYTHING, he was open
> >for counter-attack. Same thing with Demitri, Anakaris (though his Snake
> >Arms were hard to counter, but they came out slow), and Morrigan (except
> >for the Valkyrie Turn, another OBVIOUS EX move).
>
> Talbain's only advantage was the fact that he could dash and
> crawl under non-ES fireballs, and he had no initial lag on his Beast
> Rushes. Talbain was good against Demitri and Morrigan, but Anakaris,
> Bishamon, Raptor, and Rikuo hammered him.
>
> Speaking of low-risk moves, let's talk about Rikuo...
> >As for EX fireballs, only if you didn't jump them...and they were
> >jumpable.
> >
> >> >Obviously, you haven't played DS enough if you think Demitryu, Talbain,
> >> >and Morriken are the "best."
> >>
> >> I never said they were the "best", they just all had insane low-risk moves and
> >> were too easy to use.
>
> >I remember back when my friend, Harry Leung, used to play me in DS1 and
> >try to FB-DP trap me with Morrigan. Do you know how OPEN Morrigan is
> >when she throws a Soul Fist? Same thing with Demitri. There is simply
> >NO WAY a decent player should lose to a scrubby Demitri or Morrigan. NO
> >WAY at all. Never happened to me, for sure.
>
> Exactly. A scrubby Morrigan player, especially, tries to
> FB/DP trap, which is not a Morrigan strength, what with her poor FB
> launch time and her medium-priority multi-hit DP. A good Morrigan
> works off her variable dashes and plays close, using the
> standing RH to "push" the opponent into position for a quick dash
> into Shell Kick chain. Even seemingly low-risk moves like the
> Valkyrie Turn were fodder if blocked - I ate more Bish ES Iaigiri
> Slashes trying to use the Turn as an escape than should be admitted
> to. :) Morrigan's really good moves, I believe, were her standing
> close fierce, her standing RH, and her low fierce. Her medium was a
> great dash-in, especially if you turned it into a Shell Kick and
> went for a chain. BTW, I can't remember - could you chain the Doppelganger
> EX off of a chain in DS? I know you can in VH (hell, that's a fave of
> mine), but I can't recall ever successfully connecting in DS.
>
> Anakaris and Bishamon still rock her world, though. A Morrigan
> who plays an inside game can really pressure 'karis, but the man is
> just too good at playing keep-away in a pro's hands.
>
Vong (Shinji) Sundara
Stilt Man wrote:
> In article <19980316020...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> VGO Ken <vgo...@aol.com> wrote:
> >1. Chain Combos
> >I don't care whether they required skill or not in this game....almost every
> >character, if not every character had them, and they were a shameless way to
> >add on hits and damage into a combo. Skill involved? Yes, but I had the
> >timing down pat for most guys within an hour of training....pathetic.
>
> I never really cared about chains much. They were around for a few characters
> in SF2 (Chun Li, Cammy, and Ryu being the most obvious, but Bison had one or
> two in CE and Vega had a bunch throughout) and as a result they just didn't
> bother me.
>
> >2. Loose Gameplay
> >The only Capcom games wilder than DS are the Marvel games. DS had some pretty
> >massive attacks, some being very hard to counter and some being very hard to
> >even avoid.
>
> You can play a control game in DS, just as you can in Marvel. You just have a
> bit more pressure on you to keep your cool.
>
> >3. Too much borrowed off SF
> >The whole game layout was directly ripped off from SF....when I first played
> >the game, I thought it was basically the SFs turned into monsters at night time
> >(thus the name "Night Warriors" rather than "World Warriors").
>
> That's worth a laugh.
>
> >4. Some characters too easy to play
> >Some characters (Talbain, Demitri, Morrigan) were way too easy to play with
> >their low-risk moves and unbelievable advantages over the other characters.
> >Not only that, but all three did great damage and were fast, too.
>
> Sasquatch and Anakaris had their advantages to, although they weren't as
> low-rent. Morrigan actually wasn't that easy to play straight off of a
> Shotoklone mentality, because her fireballs were too slow to release and
> move (still are, actually... this is one reason I've never considered her
> a Shoto really). Between that and the low-sweeping cape (which was wonderful
> for close-up annoyance of Demitris, because it went right under his FBs) and
> other things, Morrigan was more of a close-up character, which took some
> work right there.
I agree, Morrigan is not very shoto at all once you get used to her. She's muchmore
of an in-close rushing attacking character.
>
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> The Stilt Man stil...@teleport.com
> http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
> < We are Microsoft Borg '98. Lower your expectations and >
> < surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
> < Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
> < technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
> < will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
Vong (Shinji) Sundara
VGO Ken wrote:
> >Which came out first: DS2 or XCOTA? I think the latter had a couple
> >characters with moves that could hit you while you were on the ground (I
> >believe Colossus was one.. really not sure).
>
> XCOTA came out first.......
> Yeah, and Colossus had a pursuit attack in that game (good luck connecting,
> though).
>
> BTW who here thought the COTA engine beats the modern Marvel engine? I mean,
> COTA had a lot less scrubbiness going in it....
Not me, I personally felt the best engine was the original MSH. The Vs. games
dependtoo much on Supers but then again, it's not made for experts and is flashy
enough for
its purpose (attract scrubs). It's not my fave but I still play it since nobody
at all plays
2i in my arcade.
> One more thing: what ever happened to the kick-ass falling through levels
> stages in COTA? I loved how in Spiral's stage you'd keep breaking levels over
> and over....the only modern stage to utilize that is the Cop scene in Marvel
> vs. SF. And Shuma Gorath's MSH stage was great....no corner traps, infinite
> playing space! SWEET!
I think they had some fall-through stages in MSF
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
In article <350D07CF...@san.rr.com>,
Milo D. Cooper <mdco...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>SF3, and Ibuki is nearly as bad. And finally, DS didn't have 100% damage
>combos and infinites, while SF3 did (Ryu, Oro, Ibuki, Dudley -- am I for-
Hugo, Urien, and Ken, supposedly. Ryu had an infinite in SF3?
That's news to me. (And they are NOT easier than the VS ones, IMO, not
even Ibuki's.) SF2 was a "great game" but it ranks up there with 100 for:
Ryu
Ken
Zangief
Dhalsim
Balrog
Blanka (IIRC)
Guile
Vega
Akuma
Some of those were inescapable repeat ticks, and some only worked on
certain ppl.. Andthat list isn't complete.
--
"So they send back a machine to destroy the research facility that leads to the
creation of the other machine and itself?" "Yah." "Kinda answers the question
what happens when you go back in time and kill your 'dad' now doesn't it?"
"Oh." "Good special effects?" "Yah." "Well, then by all means, let's go."
Jeff Jarlett
VGO Ken wrote:
>
> >Which is why there were dashes, tons of air moves and air ESs, and limited
> >air-block. Besides, "grab
> >my legs" :) and "Soo-ru fi-suto" were hardly uncounterable, plus did
> >practically no damage if you took
> >just the 1st hit (which was what usually happened anyways).
>
> Yes, true.......but still, the gameplay needed tweaking in that sense (to me,
> at least). There aren't any SF3 moves that you must take a hit to move in....
Err, no, but that's because it has parries, which are 10 times as bad as
anything in the DS series, except chains, which is something SF3 is
worse in since chains are more bufferable and much easier to do.
> Agreed. Plenty of innovation, but I think Capcom went a tad overboard on this
> series (making so many incarnations of it). They should'nt have made DS2
> (wasn't different enough), maybe just stuck with VS.....
Actually DS2 and DS3 were about the same IMO except for characters and a
slight scrubbing-down in DS3.
Should have gone from DS2 to Saturn VS with the old characters back.
(though VS Talbain I wouldn't want back)
> >More specific. Specific match-ups, perhaps? I can think of no incredibly wide
> >gaps.
>
> There were no "incredible" wide gaps that I can think of, either. Just gaps
> like people previously mentioned in this thread *defending* DS over SF3. But
> the disadvantages were worse than, say, ST, which had ways of getting past your
> trouble opponents.
Depending on the matchup. There are plenty of matchups worse in ST than
in NW. (I may have a minority opinion here, but I prefer NW to DS1)
Maybe it's just where I like the new characters. I've rather have to
play Dmitri vs Talbain (which is about the worst matchup in DS2, than
say Hawk vs Guile or O.Blanka vs Dee Jay)
> Partially true, but I can keep up speed-wise not a problem ;-D
> Has DISTINCT advantages over SOME characters not in top tier. All Hugo has to
> do to beat a Yun/Yang? In corner, parry one hit, throw into corner, infinite.
> Desperation? Yes, but if it's what ya gotta do.....
Pure BS gameplay on both ends.... Dialing vs infinites. At least DS is
limited dialing vs skill.
> I just realized that perhaps the reason it is so popular here is that it is so
> much like ST. And it is......you can't deny it. One instance of Capcom
> bringing back an old game in heavy camoflauge that worked in luring in players.
BZZT. Dashes and airblocking alone make it VERY different. It's about
as different from "real" SF as SF3.
> >You'd be amazed. Ibuki + Dudley's infinites were both easy enough to do in
> >competition consistently.
>
> Yes, but would someone stoop to using them on another?
All the time. All the decent SF3 gameplay I have ever saw revolved
around O.S. parry into infinite.
or dail into chain for the less skilled.
SF3 had potential, but chains and air parries ruined it
> they'd have to be pretty low. (Please, "I", don't come in on this damn argument
> with your "hard-core" tourny attitude and say that infinites in tournies are
> fine, b/c I don't care)
Well, I hate infinite, but I know when I am playing these people, to
expect them. I really hate infinites. SF3 was so ba din this regard
(easiest infinites to land in a fighting game since Clayfighter...) that
I gave up on it quicker than SS3.
Damn, I never though I would put a SF game and Clayfighter in the same
sentetnce, but it is SF3.
Mark Zedaker
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net wrote:
Ok, I'm getting back into this late. Sue me.
> Mark Zedaker wrote:
> >
> >
> > DarkStalkers 2 was better than SF3, also. Duh.
>
> Where would I be without you, Mark? :)
>
> Of course DS2 was better than SF3. However, if THAT'S also true, then
> there's only one logical statement that we can make:
>
> The whole DarkStalkers series is better than SF3.
Hm. Darkstalkers 3 is more fun than SF3/2i, but I don't know that I'd
call it a 'better game'. It goes WAY too far in the 'vs.' tradition for that
-- it's even MORE chain-oriented than DS2, the healing factor is just plain
DUMB, and it's way, way too damn FAST.
OTOH, I think Capcom put more thought and work into DS3 than they did
into 2i -- the new characters at least LOOK cool, and Lillith's 'Abracadabra'
super is novel and kind of cute, too.
> Oh yeah, one more thing, though: All of the music is the bomb, though.
> :)
Bleh. The only theme I ever took the time to listen to was Raptor's,
which is totally wrong for the character, IMO. It should be more
Yngwie-esque. He's already got the Steve Vai guitar flip, he should continue
in the 'guitar hero' (or 'anti-hero'?) vein. ^_^
I HAVE NO .SIG!
Jeff Jarlett
Mark Zedaker wrote:
>
> teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net wrote:
> > Of course DS2 was better than SF3. However, if THAT'S also true, then
> > there's only one logical statement that we can make:
> >
> > The whole DarkStalkers series is better than SF3.
>
> Hm. Darkstalkers 3 is more fun than SF3/2i, but I don't know that I'd
> call it a 'better game'. It goes WAY too far in the 'vs.' tradition for that
> -- it's even MORE chain-oriented than DS2, the healing factor is just plain
> DUMB, and it's way, way too damn FAST.
Well, I didn't think the healing was that bad- it led to turtling a
little bit, or to encourage offense, depending on how you look at it.
As for it being more chain-oriented, no more than DS2 except that the
timing was a little easier for Talbain. (who IMO got scrubbed-down bad)
As for too fast, here when Scrubcade had it 3 of 5 rounds here.
Overall, it has no option select, and NO BUFFERABLE chains into super,
that alone makes it better than SF3.
>
> OTOH, I think Capcom put more thought and work into DS3 than they did
> into 2i -- the new characters at least LOOK cool, and Lillith's 'Abracadabra'
> super is novel and kind of cute, too.
Lilith and Jedah were bad-ass designs, and Hood and Bee were decently
good as well.
Vong (Shinji) Sundara
> > OTOH, I think Capcom put more thought and work into DS3 than they did
> > into 2i -- the new characters at least LOOK cool, and Lillith's 'Abracadabra'
> > super is novel and kind of cute, too.
>
> Lilith and Jedah were bad-ass designs, and Hood and Bee were decently
> good as well.
Huh? Lilith and Jedah were bad-ass designs? I don't think so... Hood and Bee
were HORRIBLE designs. Think about it, would you rather have a "Child of Lust"
as Capcom calls Lilith and a cool Dark Master or Little Red Riding Hood and Queen
of the Bee clan? I'm not saying that Hood and Bee sucked but Lilith and Jedah
were very cool concepts and not only was the art great but their style of play was
pretty different (yes, Lilith DID play differently than Morrigan even with her own
fundamental attacks and lack of an effective fireball).
- Shinji
Lord BBH
In article <35184CFB...@wsd1.org>, "Vong (Shinji) Sundara"
<1004...@wsd1.org> writes:
>Huh? Lilith and Jedah were bad-ass designs? I don't think so... Hood and
Bee
>were HORRIBLE designs. Think about it, would you rather have a "Child of
>Lust" as Capcom calls Lilith and a cool Dark Master or Little Red Riding
>Hood and Queen of the Bee clan?
What is so horrible about Baby Bonnie Hood? She is hands down my favorite
character design of all time. The concept of a Little Red Riding Hood with an
evil look on her face whenever she pulls out one of her many weapons is just
too cool. It's all the little things that make her truly badass, like the win
poses (gotta love the "gangsta rap"), and the scream whenever she backdashes...
and almost all her voice samples kick ass.
Long Live Baby Bonnie Hood/Bulleta.
----
Matt Hall BBH on EFNet
FAQs and stuff at ftp://users.aol.com/kensou/
"Trying is the first step towards failure." - Homer Simpson
Everett
I ahve to agree. BB Hood wrecked the curve for originality in a Capcom
game.
I would say that they should have put here in Marvel vs Capcom but they
would
have screwed her up like the did Morrigan.
Joe Cho
Jedah is truly excellent in design, IMHO. Somewhat reminiscent of Guile's, well not
really, but you know what I'm talking about. He can be damn dominating at times.
Lilith? Well, she's more fun than the Demitri/Morrigan dorks, but her design is not
that new. She's just another one of those high-priority close-range shotokans. BB
Hood? Well, yes, her character concept truly rocks, but if you think about it, the
way she actually plays isn't all that great. Still, BB Hood rocks, and I love using
her. As for QBee, yeah, I think she sucks too, not very interesting concept or game
play.
-joecho