Apoc Owes John Choi $1,000
David Sirlin
Apoc mentions in his post.
1) John didn't re-enter Marvel vs. Capcom. He did just fine entering
normally.
2) John did indeed re-enter 2nd Impact. He did it according to the rules and
this has nothing to do with anything. If you don't like re-entering, Apoc,
you should not have allowed it. I didn't think you should have allowed
re-entering, but once you took people's money and let them, you can't very
well change your mind about it right before awarding the grand prize.
3) I'm not sure what the "old schoolers breaking HF down to a science" has
to do with anything. According to old tournaments, John was the best HF
player there. I've played John Choi many times in HF. The day before the
Vegas Tournament, I played HF against Valle. Valle spent $5 on me without
winning (one quarter each play). John usually kicks my butt.
Let's just say that it's very, very unlikely that Alex Valle would have
done well in HF, no matter how many old schoolers from his hometown broke
the game down to a science.
I'll now make 3 points. First, I'll explain why John Choi is owned
anything. Then I'll cover why Apoc and not someone else owes it. Then I'll
explain why it's $1,000 that's owed.
Why is Choi owed money? Well, the rules of the tourney were this point
system to determine overall winner. The rules weren't some vague thing like
"Alex won more and lost less." The rules were a definite point system on 7
agreed upon games.
In that point system, John finished 9 points worse than Alex, but that's
only counting 6 of the 7 games. We'll never know how that 7th game would
have affected things, but let's try to make a reasonable guess. Hyper was
John's game, as I said. He was the best HF tournament player there and I
played Valle myself and saw that although Valle is awesome in general, he
just doesn't have the knowledge base in Hyper needed to win. So we can look
at similar situations in other Vegas Tournament games. Tekken is Alex's game
and John isn't that good at it. Alex won, John got 9th. Ok. Super Turbo is
John's game. John got 1st, Alex got 9th. See a pattern?
I think it is reasonable to guess that Alex would have won a match or
two, then been eliminated, taking around 9th place and John would have won.
Now hold on before you start disputing that. I'm only guessing. I'm not
saying it's the way it would definitely have been, but it's the best
guess--the most likely possibility--given the information.
Imagine if--by chance--one of Alex's game's wasn't there. If Tekken was
gone and HF was there, this whole situation would have been reversed. So it
all really hinged not on the vague notion of "Alex winning more and losing
less" but on the hard fact that all the promised games that Alex was good at
were there and all the promised games that John was good at were not there.
So pretty clearly, John Choi was royally gypped here. No HF = gyp. HF was
part of the deal from the beginning and it made a material difference in the
outcome. So who's fault is it? No matter how you shift the blame, it has to
fall on the responsibility of the tournament organizer. He should have made
arrangements far in advance to ensure all the games were there. In fact,
Jason Nelson also owns HF and said he could bring it, but the tournament
organizer said that it would not be needed, so Nelson left his HF at home.
What should a tournament organizer do in a situation like this? Things
are all messed up and even though it's so-and-so's fault that HF isn't there
it's really his fault for not planning far in advance? What should he do?
Well Apoc told John and Alex to out back and "work something out." Then they
came back in, with nothing worked out. Apoc declared Alex the winner, gave
him the $1,000 and told him to "do whatever he wanted with it."
The fair thing to do in this muddled situation (short of holding a HF
tournament) is to admit that John and Alex were the top two, but the
circumstances make it too difficult to really tell. What if HF were there?
Would John have made up the 9 points? Probably, but who knows. What if
Tekken were not there? What if this or that? Too big a mess. The only fair
solution is to split the money 50/50. So Apoc really only owed John $500 and
Alex $500.
But then Apoc mysteriously declared Alex the winner of this partial set
of tournaments because "hey, he obviously won more and lost less, not to
mention that we decided to throw out one of your games, John--what, John?
That's the only reason you came is that there were an equal number of games
that you and Alex were good at? Well, sorry. Alex won more." So Alex got
$1,000.
At that moment of questionable judgment, I believe that Apoc's debt to
John increased to $1,000. Alex Valle, a player, not a tournament organizer,
can't really be expected to give his money up after it was officially
awarded to him. Valle is a bit biased, so I won't make him get involved. But
John and Valle were supposed to split the pot 50/50. So $500 really doesn't
cover it anymore.
Now Apoc will use a lot of irrelevant things to counter these arguments.
He will tell you that he's in debt. He will tell you that he only had the
$1,000. He will tell you of all the great personal sacrifices he made. I
don't dispute any of that. In fact, I really appreciate all that effort
Apoc. You worked hard. But none of that has anything to do with the
principle I'm arguing. The fact is that you owe John. Whether you can or
will ever pay him is a whole other issue. Other tournaments like B3 or New
Jersey are also other, unrelated issues.
Oh, and here's a final closing thought. The webpage says that the
organizers will match the pot. For every 5 bucks a player puts in as an
entry fee, that 5 bucks will be matched. Well I got only $43 bucks for
getting 2nd place in Alpha2. That tournament had at least 40 people.
Probably 45. 2nd place gets what--25% according the web page? So
45x5bucksx2(to for matching pot) = $450. So 25% of that is $112.50. Subtract
the $43 I got and that leaves $69.50 that Apoc owes me.
What does the net think about this? Speak up you guys.
--David Sirlin
sir...@alum.mit.edu
Anthony Cannon
David Sirlin <sir...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> Oh, and here's a final closing thought. The webpage says that the
>organizers will match the pot. For every 5 bucks a player puts in as an
>entry fee, that 5 bucks will be matched. Well I got only $43 bucks for
>getting 2nd place in Alpha2. That tournament had at least 40 people.
>Probably 45. 2nd place gets what--25% according the web page? So
>45x5bucksx2(to for matching pot) = $450. So 25% of that is $112.50. Subtract
>the $43 I got and that leaves $69.50 that Apoc owes me.
>
>What does the net think about this? Speak up you guys.
Time is short, so let me just say this much:
Any arcade operator should be overjoyed to have a mega tournament in his
establishment. Whether or not he receives any compensation for the use
of his facilities, he stands to make a TRUCK LOAD of money.
Southern Hill Golfland pulled in record numbers the day of the 2i
tournament. The reason is simple: People travel from all over the
country with no other reason than to spend money in the arcade. If the
arcade has a snackbar, there's a good chance that they'll be eating in
the there, too. People often come a day early to practice, so in 2 day
events like the USFGC they'll be pumping quarters into the machines for
3 days straight.
I am *not* kidding here. Here are my conservative calculations for
the Vegas take: I myself cashed in no fewer than $40 in quarters for
games alone, and I was spending most of my time running brackets.
I suspect it's a bit low, but lets use $40 as the average. 45 people
signed up for the Alpha 2 tournament. Lets assume that that's the
total number of people who went to the tournament (even though the
actual number is probably somewhat higher). 45 people spending $40 each
is $1,800. And that's a very low figure. I suspect the actual numbers
are around the $3,000 mark (or higher). I might be talking out of my
ass here a little bit, but there's no denying the fact that the arcade
made a lot of money off the tournament.
I *thought* some of this extra money would be kicked back to the players.
The web-site states: "for every $5 entry fee we will match $5 courtesy of
Mike Pro's Arcade of Pro's & Able Amusement". I am in a state of shock
that David only got $43 for his 2nd place A2 finish. Given that the
arcade made so much money off our patronage, it's an outrage and an
insult that they would renege on their promise to match the entry fee.
If I am in error and only 17 people actually PAID for their entry into
the Alpha 2 tournament [ ( 43 / 0.25 ) / ( 5 * 2 ) == 17 ] then I
apologize.
I distinctly remember a LOT more than 17 people, though (and only 5 or 6
people (I imagine) were allowed to enter without paying the fee as a
courtesy for bringing hardware or whatever).
--
Tony Cannon
pon...@best.com
jason nelson
David Sirlin wrote:
> So pretty clearly, John Choi was royally gypped here. No HF = gyp. HF was
> part of the deal from the beginning and it made a material difference in the
> outcome. So who's fault is it? No matter how you shift the blame, it has to
> fall on the responsibility of the tournament organizer. He should have made
> arrangements far in advance to ensure all the games were there. In fact,
> Jason Nelson also owns HF and said he could bring it, but the tournament
> organizer said that it would not be needed, so Nelson left his HF at home.
> What does the net think about this? Speak up you guys.
> --David Sirlin
> sir...@alum.mit.edu
just to clear something sirlin i said i could of got the cps1 harness,
and the board was in the arcade but we did not have the harness.
i went with apoc to buy the board because we didnt have it.
we actually went through considerable trouble trying to find one to buy.
now if it was up to me i would of probably tryed to hunt one down and
have someone pick it up during the tourney.but no matter how much u
complain u aret going to get anywhere.this tells us to be wary about all these
smaller tourneys,did anyone call apoc for any type of status on the machines.
im not trying to be one sided,john was a great player so was alex but alex
did excel at fighting games in this tourney imo
KaiserTuk
KaiserTuk
Anthony Cannon
Chojin19 <choj...@aol.com> wrote:
>>The web-site states: "for every $5 entry fee we will match $5 courtesy of
>>Mike Pro's Arcade of Pro's & Able Amusement".
>
>does say this. but who created the web site? jason. not mike pro, not able
>amusements.
No offense taken.
> > Given that the
>>arcade made so much money off our patronage, it's an outrage and an
>>insult that they would renege on their promise to match the entry fee.
>
>again, the arcade promised nothing, aside from a one-thousand dollar grand
>prize. this fact, however, was not added to, or better yet, the web site was
>not altered when jason found out that able had no intention of doing what they
>said they would do.
Well, I'm glad at least that there was no "bait-and-switch" on the part
of Pros. As I mentioned before, such behavior would be extremely unprofessional.
My apologies to Mike.
I'm still confused as to how that little bit of information ever got on
the site if no matching entry fees were promised. Did Apoc provide the
info in anticipation of being able to get matching funds, but never told
anyone when he couldn't get the arcade to agree? I dunno.
This is another example where a little bit more planning and communication
could have saved a lot of headache and bad feelings on the part of the
participants. (remember future tournament directors: PLAN PLAN PLAN!)
--
Tony Cannon
pon...@best.com
Theb52sfan
winners throw. losers complain
MPIRRING
but judge for yourselves. The tournament itself was of course held at "The
Arcade of Pros" which was a fairly small place, so just picture anywhere
between 40-70 players in a not to well ventilated room,100 degree plus temps
outside playing hardcore street fighting games from 11am to 1am with a good
20% of players smoking inside the place. I could not have beaten A.V. even if
the conditions were perfect, but I do which they would have at least banned
smoking inside the place( which we were told would be but was not banned )
Chojin19
>Mike Pro's Arcade of Pro's & Able Amusement".
this is just to you tony. no disrespect, just facts. this is true, the web site
does say this. but who created the web site? jason. not mike pro, not able
amusements.
> Given that the
>arcade made so much money off our patronage, it's an outrage and an
>insult that they would renege on their promise to match the entry fee.
again, the arcade promised nothing, aside from a one-thousand dollar grand
prize. this fact, however, was not added to, or better yet, the web site was
not altered when jason found out that able had no intention of doing what they
said they would do.
chojin
DreamTR
>i think choi should throw apoc. then apoc should pay up.
Holy geez...that's the funniest fucking thing I've ever
read.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
High Kick, Ground Pound....Repeat....The only way to victory!!!!
Cheating? Throwing? Winning....
= )
"waiting turtle cock sucking mother f--ker" (As quoted directly from many
Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and Killer Instinct players)
DreamTR
Maybe you all will go to AC Nickel Arcade Super Just Games w 360 sticks, free
Pizza, and free play tourney games next time next year.....
MuddAFuggA
>Pizza, and free play tourney games next time next year.....
you forgot one thing........any girls??....gotta have girls....nude dancers,
strippers or something.....if not, how about midget wrestlers? i think i will
probably head out that way anyways just for the comp.....even if the expense is
high.....should be a much better run tournament....but you know the
deal....gotta start savin' now...until the next tournament.......
MuddAFuggA
JOEL FRANK E
: I'll now make 3 points. First, I'll explain why John Choi is owned
: anything. Then I'll cover why Apoc and not someone else owes it. Then I'll
: explain why it's $1,000 that's owed.
: Why is Choi owed money? Well, the rules of the tourney were this point
: system to determine overall winner. The rules weren't some vague thing like
: "Alex won more and lost less." The rules were a definite point system on 7
: agreed upon games.
: What does the net think about this? Speak up you guys.
: --David Sirlin
: sir...@alum.mit.edu
My GOD... am I glad I didn't end up going to this event. Between the
heat, the pricey and broken machines, and the disorganization I am hearing
about I'm glad to have gone elsewhere that weekend.
I don't think its right to have given the complete $1,000 to Valle
considering the results didn't represent the full contest, and splitting
50/50 would have been the best solution, however I don't think it's right to
say that Apoc owes anybody for anything. The $1,000 prize was given out and
if there were any disputes , they should have been settled at that time
and not now, whether they found a Hyper machine to duke it out, or just
split 50/50. Apoc will just have to live with running a crappy tournament
if it was as bad as I hear it was. So, did John deserve at least half of the
pot? I'm sure he did.. but I don't think anyone can go breaking peoples'
legs right now to get the money....
Just my unbiased opinion
Joel
James Margaris
[clip]
You have made some excellent points, but what's done is done. Once HF
didn't show up the whole thing was completly screwed. It is rediculous
to guess (ableit educatedly) that John would have ended up winning.
Someone made a good point about Valle winning Virtua Fighter. Of course,
it is equally rediculous to give Valle the money. There is not going to
be a good resolution to this.
As for the money you are owed: $43 bucks for second place is a crock.
You should get more, just like the controllers should have been there,
Akuma should not have been banned (this to me is almost the worst
because unlike the other things it was totally under control), HF should
have been there, etc.
Maybe this tournament will serve as a wake up call. We don't need
professional organization, we just need to organize like professionals
and run tournaments instead of gatherings, especially with money on the
line.
James Margaris
Student
was started when there was time to run it, after 2nd impact was over,
wouldn't that be at about 5 in the morning. How many people would were
still around to even enter the tournnament? I have no idea, I had long
since left and was in fact at home in bed at this time. Lets say at this
point there are 16 players who are still there and still want to enter
HF. Wouldn't Alex tie for 9th even if he was out in 2? Would he have to
play off for the spot against the other 9th places to prove he was the
best 9th place and not 10th? How many people were still there when
everything got finished on sunday/monday?
-wes
Wenchi Liao
JOEL FRANK E <jfr...@elux4.cs.umass.edu> wrote:
>split 50/50. Apoc will just have to live with running a crappy tournament
>if it was as bad as I hear it was. So, did John deserve at least half of the
>pot? I'm sure he did.. but I don't think anyone can go breaking peoples'
>legs right now to get the money....
Well, it WAS a Las Vegas tournament....
WL
David Sirlin
JOEL FRANK E wrote in message <35ae2...@rcfnews.cs.umass.edu>...
The $1,000 prize was given out and
>if there were any disputes , they should have been settled at that time
>and not now, whether they found a Hyper machine to duke it out, or just
>split 50/50.
The prize was given out at 5:30am. We were all exhausted and John was barely
conscious. It was certainly no time to try to put together a coherent
argument. We all just shook our heads in disbelief and said "Whatever, we'll
deal with it later" and we left.
--David Sirlin
sir...@alum.mit.edu
RMizuno98
>
>
what the hell is that suppose to mean....
There have been many tournaments held in Vegas... course nothing to this
magnitude... but every tourney thats been run until this one had almost been
flawless... esp the Buffalo Bill's Tekken 3 tourney
ROB_LV
There is no such thing as a cheesy character only an inexperience player.
Chojin19
>>Well, it WAS a Las Vegas tournament....
>>
>>
>
>what the hell is that suppose to mean....
actually rob, i think it's supposed to have something to do with las vegas
being famous for mobsters.....
breaking legs.....
ya know...
chojin
FLIPn181
>Pizza, and free play tourney games next time next year.....
Hey wilson, last year at the SJG tourny after choi won and valle took 2nd
place...we "all" decided that no more cali playas would fly out of state no
more unless garenteed grand prize! The way we "decided" it was cali alwayz
wins...there is no more point in us proving it... and wasting our money on
plane tickets... cuz lets just say they didn't recieve as much money as they
where both lead to believe...
No offense tho.... you ran a smooth tourny and you made sure no fights from the
same area took place until absolutly neccasary... and what free pizza???? LOL
Yes i know this is gonna look like a Cali pride thing... but hey our tournies
with just cali players alone are tougher than these "national" ones... think
about it alot of "big names" didn't go to either of these tournaments that can
do better....ie mike watson, martin vega, james chen...ext. thats why no more
out of state tournaments...vegas excluded cuz we can simply drive there =) and
well ....vegas is vegas!
"I am da FlipMeign!"
DreamTR
>
>>Maybe you all will go to AC Nickel Arcade Super Just Games w 360 sticks,
>free
>>Pizza, and free play tourney games next time next year.....
>
>Hey wilson, last year at the SJG tourny after choi won and valle took 2nd
>place...we "all" decided that no more cali playas would fly out of state no
>more unless garenteed grand prize! The way we "decided" it was cali alwayz
>wins...there is no more point in us proving it... and wasting our money on
>plane tickets... cuz lets just say they didn't recieve as much money as they
>where both lead to believe...
Choi got like 250 bucks, a playstation, 3 games, and 2 marquees and a coin
collection..that's like 500 bucks in shit, so I think it WAS worth his while to
go...(though I still owe him a marquee and Alpha 2 for the Saturn because he
didn't want it for PSX = ()
>
>No offense tho.... you ran a smooth tourny and you made sure no fights from
>the
>same area took place until absolutly neccasary... and what free pizza????
Free Pizza was this year.....You know how much the guy that won second impact
got this year???? 230 bucks..and he only had to play in a group of 16.
TRANZORzX5
>>here
>>but judge for yourselves. The tournament itself was of course held at "The
>>Arcade of Pros" which was a fairly small place, so just picture anywhere
>>between 40-70 players in a not to well ventilated room,100 degree plus temps
>>outside playing hardcore street fighting games from 11am to 1am with a
>good
>>20% of players smoking inside the place. I could not have beaten A.V. even
>if
>>the conditions were perfect, but I do which they would have at least banned
>>smoking inside the place( which we were told would be but was not banned )
>
>Maybe you all will go to AC Nickel Arcade Super Just Games w 360 sticks, free
>Pizza, and free play tourney games next time next year.....
>High Kick, Ground Pound....Repeat....The only way to victory!!!!
>Cheating? Throwing? Winning....
>= )
>"waiting turtle cock sucking mother f--ker" (As quoted directly from many
>Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and Killer Instinct players)
AMEN!
--Adam..
..and on the 8th day the lord created his prize possesion and ass kicker.
~^TRANZOR z....X5^~™
"Son of a bitch must pay"- Jack Burton.