VF vs SF (sort of)..
Carlo emilio Ang - MECE/W94
No, this is not about which game is better, or which game has better
players. I like & play both games for two different reasons.
I was just playing against Toronto's Jeramy (the Lion guy), and we
had tons of fun in lots of sea-saw matches. Anyway, I realized one
thing when playing him. I've RARELY played him, or a Lion for that
matter. I found it was fun playing him because his character seemed
so fresh amidst the Akira "bandwagon". Anyway, back to my point, VF
suffers so BAD from lack of numbers. I mean I'd be having 100 times
more fun if I got to play as many kinds of players as I do in SF, not
just the downtown regulars. I think VF suffers from this lack of
numbers because w/in the span of 2 games, an insanely complex gameplay
was developed. Where as in SF, folks had sooo many incarnations of SF
to go through that the learning curve was made gentle.
So now I wonder, I have lots of friends who play SF that would like
to learn VF. They say, unless they buy a Saturn, there's no way they'd
bother learning VF2(.1). They say they'll just wait for VF3. I told
them this would not be wise. As everyone who has already gotten good
at VF2(.1) will at least have old moves/characters to fall back upon
in VF3. Remember when VF2 came out? For a while folks who used or were
familiar with VF1 characters were killing Akiras. My times change....
So I guess in VF3, users of Aoi and the sumo will have a tough time
in the beginning, ditto for people who choose to get into VF only at
VF3.
Imagine if the player/character variety you faced was as broad as in
SF (ignoring the Ryu/Ken/Akira bandwagon).
Thomas Calvin Cannon
In article <4qbqlh$j...@ns2.ryerson.ca>,
Carlo emilio Ang - MECE/W94 <ca...@acs.ryerson.ca> wrote:
>No, this is not about which game is better, or which game has better
>players. I like & play both games for two different reasons.
>
>suffers so BAD from lack of numbers. I mean I'd be having 100 times
>more fun if I got to play as many kinds of players as I do in SF, not
>just the downtown regulars. I think VF suffers from this lack of
>numbers because w/in the span of 2 games, an insanely complex gameplay
>was developed. Where as in SF, folks had sooo many incarnations of SF
>to go through that the learning curve was made gentle.
Well, without starting an advocacy war, I completely disagree with
that last statement. =) Before I get into this, I'd like to preface
that VF2 is an excellent game -- clearly one of the top two fighters
ever (and maybe the top).
At it's strategic core, SSF2T (the last "real" street fighter) is
the same as SF2 Classic. All the elements that make SF2 a "deep"
game, like ticking, whiff ticks, positional play, trapping, and
well-timed attackes were nearly all introduced in the very first
version of the game, and were discovered and exploited by the
top players by the end of the second version (CE).
What we've been getting since then has been a slew of features
like Super Combos, new characters, and throw escapes. Some of
these have been nice, and others awful, but none of them have
fundamentally changed the game.
So what happened with VF2? Since I live in one of the biggest
SF hotspots in the US, I feel especially qualified to speak on
this one. VF2 here died for three reasons. First of all, it
gave you the least play for your money. VF2 was the most
expensive fighter around, and its matches were the shortest.
When you're just starting to learn a game, you want more than
20 seconds to play around.
Reason number two? All that tapping. VF2's interface is designed
to make moves more difficult to execute. All the moves....not just
big and powerful ones. This IMHO is a braindead idea -- advanced
players will be able to do most of the moves no matter what their
execution, so all the VF interface does is alienate new players and make
them want to quit the game.
Reason number three: outside of the match, VF2 has no style
whatsoever. It's bland. The character select screen is bland,
the winning poses are, for the most part, bland. There are no
endings. The actual game is a joy to watch and play, but VF2
gives me no reason whatsoever to care a whit about my character.
All I know about Jerky is that he races cars...yippe. A LOT
of people in SF play their characters passionately because they
identify with the character's personality or story. It looks
like this one is being fixed is VF3, fortunately.
The combined result of these factors meant that VF2 was
essentially the most-watched game ever around here. People would play
the CPU quite a bit, and hoards of people would watch to occasional
2 player match, but that's about it.
[snip]
>So I guess in VF3, users of Aoi and the sumo will have a tough time
>in the beginning, ditto for people who choose to get into VF only at
>VF3.
This is most likely true.
>Imagine if the player/character variety you faced was as broad as in
>SF (ignoring the Ryu/Ken/Akira bandwagon).
This is Sega's fault, for loading up the "hero" character with all
the most-interesing moves, simply because almost no one played him
in the original. I tried championing Shun....I really really tried.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Moby
Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: Well, without starting an advocacy war, I completely disagree with
: that last statement. =) Before I get into this, I'd like to preface
: that VF2 is an excellent game -- clearly one of the top two fighters
: ever (and maybe the top).
With a preface like that, I can already see the heavy criticisms
coming.... :)
: So what happened with VF2? Since I live in one of the biggest
: SF hotspots in the US, I feel especially qualified to speak on
: this one. VF2 here died for three reasons. First of all, it
: gave you the least play for your money. VF2 was the most
: expensive fighter around, and its matches were the shortest.
: When you're just starting to learn a game, you want more than
: 20 seconds to play around.
This one I completely agree with. Living in perhaps the biggest
SF hotspot in Canada, I can vouch for the fact that people simply ignored
VF2 because it was insanely expensive, and the arcade managers around
here were too stupid to market the game properly, especially a "next
generation" game like this. As a fighting game, VF2 gives you the least
play of ANY fighting game in history!
: Reason number two? All that tapping. VF2's interface is designed
: to make moves more difficult to execute. All the moves....not just
: big and powerful ones. This IMHO is a braindead idea -- advanced
: players will be able to do most of the moves no matter what their
: execution, so all the VF interface does is alienate new players and make
: them want to quit the game.
No, I think this tapping thing primarily turned off only people
who were used to the SF command input style; people who were either new
to fighting games, or who didn't come from SF, didn't have that difficult
a time to adjust. Furthermore, the VF interface is infinitely more
flexible when you're talking about the number of commands each character
is capable of executing. This is on a completely different level compared
to SF, wherein three or four joystick motions pretty much covers the
gamut for your character. Finally, the simply three-button layout is
elegant in design and execution; it truly amazes me how many complex
movements, moves, throws and various other subtleties can be controlled
with such a layout.
I'll concede that many SFers have a hard time adjusting to a
tapping style, but this fact alone does not make VF's interface a
braindead idea. If Sega's primary intention was to attract SFers away
from SF, then maybe you have a point, but obviously that wasn't the case.
I've discussed this with Chensor, who claims that it wasn't a SF
mentality but a "Chensor" mentality that made it hard for him to
adjust... I find that hard to believe from somebody who's been playing SF
for so long before moving to VF. (Sorry James!)
: Reason number three: outside of the match, VF2 has no style
: whatsoever. It's bland. The character select screen is bland,
: the winning poses are, for the most part, bland. There are no
: endings. The actual game is a joy to watch and play, but VF2
: gives me no reason whatsoever to care a whit about my character.
: All I know about Jerky is that he races cars...yippe. A LOT
: of people in SF play their characters passionately because they
: identify with the character's personality or story. It looks
: like this one is being fixed is VF3, fortunately.
This is an intentional design factor... and this is what you get
with all the new generation, 3-D polygonal games. Tekken 2 and Soul Edge
2 also have very marginal storylines... I think Sega's intention here was
to focus attention on the game itself rather than a backstory, which many
people really didn't care about. Sure, many SFers identify with Capcom's
huge backstory for the SF game, but VFers have a different mindset
towards VF. Nearly ALL VFers I've talked with have no problem with Sega's
decision; in fact, most people would rather there have been NO story
whatsoever!! People in VF care about the characters through identifying
with their design, or through playing them... I know that's true for me.
Again, I think it's the old-core SFers who rely on and expect a
detailed storyline to get interested in the game. But honestly, with a
game like VF2, I don't think it needs it. Therefore, don't expect major
game endings or any major "story advancement" in VF3...
: This is Sega's fault, for loading up the "hero" character with all
: the most-interesing moves, simply because almost no one played him
: in the original. I tried championing Shun....I really really tried.
Again, like some of your other points, I think this is a
characteristic of SF players or a SF city, to a major extent. Sure, Akira
has all the most interesting combos and powerful techniques... but most
of the marginal characters (with the sole exception of Pai) fight in a
distinct, very beautiful to watch style... and IMHO this more than
compensates for Sega's "Akira-bias".
Although, I most certainly agree that Sega has a penchant for
needing "star" characters... and indeed, Kage will be the star for VF3.
But as long as this doesn't interfere with the other character designs,
or with gameplay, or even with overall character balance (as it didn't in
VF2), then I don't mind at all. I think that most of the gripes you
mention can be characterzied as "SF-biased", which is not a bad thing,
even though Chensor vehemently denies it. :) I mean, I don't think you'll
see TK2 or SE2 players gripe about the same things you have.... <shrug>
--
Moby
Henry Kong (hk...@unixg.ubc.ca)
Strangers In Paradise|Massive Attack|Invisibles|Sega|Virtua Fighter 2|DKR
Love & Rockets|Melanie Moore|Tricky|Details|King Mob|Salma Hayek| A D Phi
Andrew Ryan Chang
In article <4qcf8q$f...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, Moby <hk...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
>Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
>towards VF. Nearly ALL VFers I've talked with have no problem with Sega's
>decision; in fact, most people would rather there have been NO story
>whatsoever!! People in VF care about the characters through identifying
>with their design, or through playing them... I know that's true for me.
I have a problem with Sega's decision- the half-assed story makes
for a really lame concept. If there was no story, great. The story as
it stands is terribly weak and uninspiring and for the life of me, I
can't understand how Sega and whoever got an anime out of it.
If there was loads of story, fine too.
I personally reconcile this problem by pretending there is no
story to VF- people just got together to fight, that's all.
--
Check Spoooon! Sun Cup Nil
Squid Adjective One Tray Ball
Pepsi Two Road Cascade Light Zone
Net Three Verb Ice Reflection
Thomas Calvin Cannon
>
>: Well, without starting an advocacy war, I completely disagree with
>: that last statement. =) Before I get into this, I'd like to preface
>: that VF2 is an excellent game -- clearly one of the top two fighters
>: ever (and maybe the top).
>
> With a preface like that, I can already see the heavy criticisms
>coming.... :)
>
Hee hee...
[Tom says that VF has no style]
>
> This is an intentional design factor... and this is what you get
>with all the new generation, 3-D polygonal games. Tekken 2 and Soul Edge
>2 also have very marginal storylines... I think Sega's intention here was
>to focus attention on the game itself rather than a backstory, which many
>people really didn't care about. Sure, many SFers identify with Capcom's
>huge backstory for the SF game, but VFers have a different mindset
>towards VF. Nearly ALL VFers I've talked with have no problem with Sega's
>decision; in fact, most people would rather there have been NO story
>whatsoever!! People in VF care about the characters through identifying
>with their design, or through playing them... I know that's true for me.
Well, yes, but perhaps you can see how you're supporting my point.
To paraphrase you, Sega takes a minimal approach because they feel
that many people don't care about storylines. As support, the die-
hard VFers feel the same way.
But this thread was started because the die hard SFers outnumber the die
hard VFers many times over. If you're asking why VF2 didn't catch on in
the west, this has to be a reason, IMHO. Saying that the minimal
approach is ok because the most ardent fans think it's ok doesn't work.
How does the average guy feel about the minimal approach? Most don't
like it, according to the VF2 fan-base. Drama, personality, spit &
polish, and charm sell in the west, and VF2 doesn't take advantage of
this.
> Again, I think it's the old-core SFers who rely on and expect a
>detailed storyline to get interested in the game. But honestly, with a
>game like VF2, I don't think it needs it. Therefore, don't expect major
>game endings or any major "story advancement" in VF3...
>
Um...isn't Sega adding rendered "cut scenes" to VF3? Was that just
a rumor. Anyway, I think you're overemphasizing the "ending" aspect of
my point here. It's the small details, like music, the character select
screen, fonts, etc. that I'm really talking about -- spit and polish.
Endings are just one aspect of this. VF2 looks like it was produced by
engineers...the engine itself is remarkable, but everything else (visually)
is wanting. (No cut to engineers intended...hey, I'm an engineer!)
>: This is Sega's fault, for loading up the "hero" character with all
>: the most-interesing moves, simply because almost no one played him
>: in the original. I tried championing Shun....I really really tried.
>
> Again, like some of your other points, I think this is a
>characteristic of SF players or a SF city, to a major extent. Sure, Akira
>has all the most interesting combos and powerful techniques... but most
>of the marginal characters (with the sole exception of Pai) fight in a
>distinct, very beautiful to watch style... and IMHO this more than
>compensates for Sega's "Akira-bias".
Ah ha...."very beautiful to watch style." But how fun or interesting
are these characters to play, compared to the golden boy Akira?
Characters like Shun, Lau, and Pai (of course) just don't have as many
tools as Akira. Just look at the FAQ...how many pages are devoted
just to Akira's moves?? Shun's got the dodge, and Lau's got the rush,
but Akira has practically everything -- combos, throws, reversals,
the taiwan step (yeah, I know that everyone can crouch dash, but
if you're Shun, what's the point?)....
Regardless of other characters' virtues, it's simply a fact that Sega
loaded up Akira because they were disappointed in his popularity
in VF1. Hopefully they won't make the same mistake with Kage in VF3.
> Although, I most certainly agree that Sega has a penchant for
>needing "star" characters... and indeed, Kage will be the star for VF3.
>But as long as this doesn't interfere with the other character designs,
>or with gameplay, or even with overall character balance (as it didn't in
>VF2), then I don't mind at all. I think that most of the gripes you
>mention can be characterzied as "SF-biased", which is not a bad thing,
>even though Chensor vehemently denies it. :) I mean, I don't think you'll
>see TK2 or SE2 players gripe about the same things you have.... <shrug>
With the exception of the "tapping" gripe, I really think my bias
would be better described as "western" than "sf2." According to
your response, VF2 did poorly in the west simply because it cost too
much. This does nothing to explain why inferior games that cost just as
much (like KI and MK3 in the beginning) did incredibly well. MK3 was
$1 a game when it first game out, and people stood in line to play it.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Chris Finnie
In article <4qbqlh$j...@ns2.ryerson.ca>, ca...@acs.ryerson.ca says...
Agreed. If there was as much VF2 competition here as there is SF, I'd
probably have more fun playing VF2. The game just makes more sense than
SFA. Capcom tinkered with SF WAY too much. SSF2 on turbo 3 on SNES is
the best street fighter ever made. (Sagat is only average, Balrog rules
the game unfortnately)....
The word is out, I will be playing Aoi when VF3 comes out... hehe :)
chris
Chris Finnie
In article <4qci3b$n...@morgoth.sfu.ca>, arc...@sfu.ca says...
>>towards VF. Nearly ALL VFers I've talked with have no problem with
Sega's
>>decision; in fact, most people would rather there have been NO story
>>whatsoever!! People in VF care about the characters through
identifying
>>with their design, or through playing them... I know that's true for
me.
>
makes
>for a really lame concept. If there was no story, great. The story as
>it stands is terribly weak and uninspiring and for the life of me, I
>can't understand how Sega and whoever got an anime out of it.
Personally, I don't give a f*ck what the story is, nor whether there is
any. I hope I'm not offending anyone but it seems to me that the more
one knows about the storyline in a game, the worse of a player he/she
is... Like I said before, the object in fighting games is not to beat
the game and see all the endings, but to slaughter human opponents, and
claim total superiority and bragging rights. All IMO of course :)
chris
Chocobo
Chris Finnie wrote:
> >>Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
> >>towards VF. Nearly ALL VFers I've talked with have no problem with
> Sega's
> >>decision; in fact, most people would rather there have been NO story
> >>whatsoever!! People in VF care about the characters through
> identifying
> >>with their design, or through playing them... I know that's true for
> me.
> >
> > I have a problem with Sega's decision- the half-assed story
> makes
> >for a really lame concept. If there was no story, great. The story as
> >it stands is terribly weak and uninspiring and for the life of me, I
> >can't understand how Sega and whoever got an anime out of it.
>
The story is so... useless. Everyone is related, every fight's a family
reunion. WHO CARES. I kinda like the way that they had a decisive winner
of the VF1 tournament (Lau), but Sarah being brainwashed, Pai wanting to
beat Lau because he didn't care about Pai's mother or something... no one
cares, we just want to play the game.
> Personally, I don't give a f*ck what the story is, nor whether there is
> any. I hope I'm not offending anyone but it seems to me that the more
> one knows about the storyline in a game, the worse of a player he/she
> is...
It seems to me the opposite is true... and since you somehow know that I
suck, I guess that means you were right. Anyway....
Like I said before, the object in fighting games is not to beat
> the game and see all the endings, but to slaughter human opponents, and
> claim total superiority and bragging rights. All IMO of course :)
I agree. Adding a story is kinda nice, but it's not really important. I
don't think any MK players have a personal need to get revenge on Shao
Kahn for taking over the world.
Moby
Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: But this thread was started because the die hard SFers outnumber the die
: hard VFers many times over. If you're asking why VF2 didn't catch on in
: the west, this has to be a reason, IMHO. Saying that the minimal
: approach is ok because the most ardent fans think it's ok doesn't work.
: How does the average guy feel about the minimal approach? Most don't
: like it, according to the VF2 fan-base. Drama, personality, spit &
: polish, and charm sell in the west, and VF2 doesn't take advantage of
: this.
First of all, the fact that VF2 didn't catch on in the West
because it didn't attract the die-hard SFers isn't entirely correct; in
fact, if anything, it was DIFFICULT to attract die-hard SFers because
they were so "set" in their kind of game, that many of them didn't want
to make the "leap" to a brand-new innovation in fighting games. I know
countless SFers who are content to play and master all the various Capcom
SF-clones, and not bother with VF's steep learning curve. Thus, I'd argue
that it was VF's high learning curve that was a primary reason for VF2's
commercial failure in North America.
In previous threads I've mentioned how VF2 generally appeals to a
more sophisticated audience... you won't see teenagers who yearn for the
blood and guts of TV violence playing this game day-in day-out.
Secondly, you're saying VF2 has no charm, no personality? Sorry,
but I don't know how you CAN'T see it. I don't know what you expect out
of the character selection screen (which is great by me, how are the
SFA screens better??), but when I see something like: Lau's insane laugh
when he wins, the way he claps his hands together, his maniacal ponytail
waving in the wind, and the way he STOMPS on his opponent when they're
down, just screams "BAD-ASS" to me... The whole Jacky character design
and demeanor is very stylish as well. Look at his unique litte "Ali
Shuffle" when he connects a TA kick (MC), his whole "leather and motorcyle"
get-up, his brutal beatknuckle... I dunno, I think it's more a case of
you not seeing more subtle elements of charm and personality, rather than
VF2 not having any.
I'd say that VF2 has a more elegant and subtle sense of charm,
personality, whatever-you-call-it. As opposed to the in-your-face,
painfully obvious style of some American fighting games, which turns off
a whole OTHER group of gamers. :)
: Um...isn't Sega adding rendered "cut scenes" to VF3? Was that just
: a rumor.
Where did you hear this from? EGM? :)
: Anyway, I think you're overemphasizing the "ending" aspect of
: my point here. It's the small details, like music, the character select
: screen, fonts, etc. that I'm really talking about -- spit and polish.
: Endings are just one aspect of this. VF2 looks like it was produced by
: engineers...the engine itself is remarkable, but everything else (visually)
: is wanting. (No cut to engineers intended...hey, I'm an engineer!)
I can't disagree more. Maybe it's just your very subjective
preference for a more cartoony, drawn-rather-than-rendered style of
animation in fighting games?? Some people may counter that if Sega used
funny, stylized fonts and cartoony music, the game would lose MUCH of its
real character, which is that of a fairly accurate fighting simulation.
(emphasis on the "fairly")
Just so I can understand your position better, what's your
opinion on VF Kids? It has tons of charm, cute facial expressions when
fighting, little dust trails, flowers to denote the win boxes, etc. etc.
etc. Is this what you mean by charm & personality missing in VF2? <shrug>
: Ah ha...."very beautiful to watch style." But how fun or interesting
: are these characters to play, compared to the golden boy Akira?
VERY. In fact, I have an expert VF2 friend who is now bored of
all characters in VF2 EXCEPT for Shun. This is his own opinion, but he
finds Shun the most enjoyable to play now... I personally enjoy playing
Lion more than Akira as well. If you understand the game, you would
realize that fighting humans, good Lions (in general) utilize a higher
level of creativity in their attack pattern than good Akiras. This is the
nature of the beast (or in this case, Akira's arsenal), and is an
EXCELLENT example of Sega's good character design (ie. Lion isn't as
well-rounded, but just as fun to play).
: Characters like Shun, Lau, and Pai (of course) just don't have as many
: tools as Akira. Just look at the FAQ...how many pages are devoted
: just to Akira's moves?? Shun's got the dodge, and Lau's got the rush,
: but Akira has practically everything -- combos, throws, reversals,
: the taiwan step (yeah, I know that everyone can crouch dash, but
: if you're Shun, what's the point?)....
You are completely incorrect on this point. The many pages devoted
to Akira rather than Shun is a sign of the popularity of that character,
and the devotion many Akira fans have to learn/master him completely. And
of course, the fact that he has more combos than anyone else. But when it
comes down to deriving enjoyment from playing, you are really slighting
Shun when you say he's got the dodge only. Look at
his arsenal... the most varied and interesting concoction of moves in the
game! This fact alone makes Shun much more enjoyable (and creative) to
use than others.
Sure, Akira has more combos and "cool" looking moves than most of
the other characters. But does this make him the only (or one of the
only) enjoyable characters to use in VF2? Certainly not! I think VF2's
character design speaks for itself; many people use a higher variety of
the characters than in any other fighting game I can think of. There are
no characters people avoid indiscriminately. Maybe in your city, but that
is a special case (IMO). Compare this to SFA, where in nearly every
SF-city I've been to or heard about, marginal characters like Dhalsim,
Sodom and others are virtually ignored (same with Blackheart and Shuma
Gorath in MSH).
: Regardless of other characters' virtues, it's simply a fact that Sega
: loaded up Akira because they were disappointed in his popularity
: in VF1. Hopefully they won't make the same mistake with Kage in VF3.
Agree with the first part, but I don't agree that it was a
mistake, for the reasons given above. If you look at VF2 in areas where
it is even only moderately popular, you'll see that the excellent
character balance is quite evident (character balance in terms of
enjoyment of use). And I'm not even MENTIONING Japan. I guess the only
exception I can think of to my own statement is that of Pai, and even
that is a weak case.
: With the exception of the "tapping" gripe, I really think my bias
: would be better described as "western" than "sf2." According to
: your response, VF2 did poorly in the west simply because it cost too
: much. This does nothing to explain why inferior games that cost just as
: much (like KI and MK3 in the beginning) did incredibly well. MK3 was
: $1 a game when it first game out, and people stood in line to play it.
No I said the cost was a MAJOR reason why VF2 suffered in the
west. Other very obvious reasons are its high learning curve (especially
compared to all Capcom fighting games), its relative scarcity (owners
ordered many more KI and MK3s than VF2 based solely on assumption), and
the fact that VF2 does not appeal to the largest American demographic of
fighting games: teenage boys.
As you can tell, VF2 is more sophisticated, detailed and complex
than UMK3 or KI1/2, and this turns off countless kids in America/Canada.
But these same characteristics also endear the game to an older, more
mature demographic (IMHO). As an easy and simple test, just compare the
ages and walks of life of the MOAT contestants, (and the RGVA regulars),
to the ages of SF-tourney players and a.g.sf2 regulars. No contest. :)
jus...@pe-nelson.com
ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) wrote:
>In article <4qbqlh$j...@ns2.ryerson.ca>,
>Carlo emilio Ang - MECE/W94 <ca...@acs.ryerson.ca> wrote:
>>No, this is not about which game is better, or which game has better
>>players. I like & play both games for two different reasons.
>>
>>suffers so BAD from lack of numbers. I mean I'd be having 100 times
>>more fun if I got to play as many kinds of players as I do in SF, not
>>just the downtown regulars. I think VF suffers from this lack of
>>numbers because w/in the span of 2 games, an insanely complex gameplay
>>was developed. Where as in SF, folks had sooo many incarnations of SF
>>to go through that the learning curve was made gentle.
>Well, without starting an advocacy war, I completely disagree with
>that last statement. =) Before I get into this, I'd like to preface
>that VF2 is an excellent game -- clearly one of the top two fighters
>ever (and maybe the top).
>At it's strategic core, SSF2T (the last "real" street fighter) is
>the same as SF2 Classic. All the elements that make SF2 a "deep"
>game, like ticking, whiff ticks, positional play, trapping, and
>well-timed attackes were nearly all introduced in the very first
>version of the game, and were discovered and exploited by the
>top players by the end of the second version (CE).
>What we've been getting since then has been a slew of features
>like Super Combos, new characters, and throw escapes. Some of
>these have been nice, and others awful, but none of them have
>fundamentally changed the game.
>So what happened with VF2? Since I live in one of the biggest
>SF hotspots in the US, I feel especially qualified to speak on
>this one. VF2 here died for three reasons. First of all, it
>gave you the least play for your money. VF2 was the most
>expensive fighter around, and its matches were the shortest.
>When you're just starting to learn a game, you want more than
>20 seconds to play around.
>Reason number two? All that tapping. VF2's interface is designed
>to make moves more difficult to execute. All the moves....not just
>big and powerful ones. This IMHO is a braindead idea -- advanced
>players will be able to do most of the moves no matter what their
>execution, so all the VF interface does is alienate new players and make
>them want to quit the game.
Eh? I don't follow you at all here.
Granted, at VF2's release, (or VF1 for that matter) the interface was
foreign. We had all been trained on the smooth motions of SF2.
However, after a very short period of time, I began to find
it's interface *very* intuitive. All the moves seemed to "fit"
the motion. F,F+P for the dashing elbow; B,F,F+P for the BodyCheck,
etc..etc...
>The combined result of these factors meant that VF2 was
>essentially the most-watched game ever around here. People would play
>the CPU quite a bit, and hoards of people would watch to occasional
>2 player match, but that's about it.
Methinks the length of the matches is the biggest of the three
factors.
>This is Sega's fault, for loading up the "hero" character with all
>the most-interesing moves, simply because almost no one played him
>in the original. I tried championing Shun....I really really tried.
Just for the hell of it, I'll start a VF2 debate. :)
Akira's good, but he's not the bastard Kage or Lau is. Kage: one
b+p and you lose. Lau: One M-UpKn at the right time... you lose.
Then again, with Akira, one well placed SE ends the match. Damn...
thought I had something going there...:)
--
Justin Ratcliff: jus...@pe-nelson.com
Cranes,Cure /|\ Gods of modern music
"Home, home in the gym, we've all got more Tong Fei's again..."
jus...@pe-nelson.com
ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) wrote:
>Ah ha...."very beautiful to watch style." But how fun or interesting
>are these characters to play, compared to the golden boy Akira?
>Characters like Shun, Lau, and Pai (of course) just don't have as many
>tools as Akira. Just look at the FAQ...how many pages are devoted
>just to Akira's moves?? Shun's got the dodge, and Lau's got the rush,
>but Akira has practically everything -- combos, throws, reversals,
>the taiwan step (yeah, I know that everyone can crouch dash, but
>if you're Shun, what's the point?)....
nod nod... Akira has a lot, but he is a rather higher end character.
You can't just pick up and expect to win with Akira, like you can,
say, with that bastard Kage.
Perhaps the extensive study of Akira is simply because he is so damn
popular. I mean, he is, without a doubt, the biggest vidgame bad-ass
of them all.
PS: Have you noticed Golfland has their VF2 machine set at $0.25? I
invite you to put your money where you mouth is big man...:)
>---
>Tom Cannon
>ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Moby
Chocobo (cho...@concentric.net) wrote:
: It seems to me the opposite is true... and since you somehow know that I
: suck, I guess that means you were right. Anyway....
????
: I agree. Adding a story is kinda nice, but it's not really important. I
: don't think any MK players have a personal need to get revenge on Shao
: Kahn for taking over the world.
Yeah, but elaborate storylines like in MK really add substance to
merchandising, and all the various other spinoffs that Williams can think
of. Movie, cartoons, toys, paraphernalia, comic books, etc. etc. VF
doesn't have any of this stuff, because it's storyline is so weak. :) And
because Japanese gaming companies (Sega, Namco) don't generally take
advantage of that stuff anyways....
Scott Douglas Thompson
Moby wrote:
>
> Yeah, but elaborate storylines like in MK really add substance to
> merchandising, and all the various other spinoffs that Williams can think
> of. Movie, cartoons, toys, paraphernalia, comic books, etc. etc. VF
> doesn't have any of this stuff, because it's storyline is so weak. :) And
> because Japanese gaming companies (Sega, Namco) don't generally take
> advantage of that stuff anyways....
>
> --
> Moby
Actually, as of this last Fall Vurtua Fighter _does_ have it's
own show--airing in Japan to compete with the _Street Fighter 2: Victory_
animated series. The show is in standard animated format, disappointing
several viewers who were hoping for the VR effect (I was not one of these
viewers, BTW).
I _like_ a story in a fight game. Hell, I like a story in _any_
game at all. I'm not just there to kick butt, I'm there to have a good
time.
_AND_ kick butt.
- Scott
Lionel Vilner
yes yes yes, but MK sucks !
Jirawat Uttayaya
A proper analysis of why VF2 marginally succeeded in the States needs
to consider why VF2 spectacularly overwhelmed in Japan and compare
the difference.
Cultural dissimilarities played a small role. Most kids in Japan, and
Asia in general, receive some form of martial arts training, if nothing
more than kung-fu flicks. They could greater appreciate the VF series
pseudo-realism than the average American teen-ager. ("Hey I saw my
sensei perform that exact same move in the dojo." or "Jackie Chan
did that in Drunken Master!") In Japan, girls actually played VF2,
automatically increasing its attractiveness. While in the States
the amount of estrogen in a typical arcade would fit in a shot gas
with room left over for Stoli, bananna Schnapps, and tobasco ssauce.
The decreased play time, a result of 30 second matches, was solved in
Japan by 3 out of 5 rounds. In fact, 3 out of 5 is the way VF2 should
properly be played.
But the biggest factor in VF2 languish in America is Sega's surprisingly
stupid refusal to advertise, of which Tom's complaint of character
stories is a symptom. In fact, there is a backstory to VF2, albeit a
medicore one, but most people in the States never know it because Sega
never bothered to tell it. A even nor fragrant violation is the lack
of official tournaments. SF2 popularity, especially in the West Coast,
is a direct result of tournaments, which encourages human competition.
And without good human competition, fighting games will not survive.
VF2 explosion of popularity in Japan coincides with the explosion
of tournaments.
Crappy controls, crappy competition, crappy joysticks, crappy buttons,
crappy alignment, crappy promotion, crappy prices, crappy arcades
killed VF2 in America.
Sincerely,
Jirawat Uttayaya a.k.a. Peaking Duck
Vanity of vanities, saidth the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is
vanity.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
In article <4qdo1h$m...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, Moby <hk...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
>Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
>
[snip]
> First of all, the fact that VF2 didn't catch on in the West
>because it didn't attract the die-hard SFers isn't entirely correct; in
>fact, if anything, it was DIFFICULT to attract die-hard SFers because
>they were so "set" in their kind of game, that many of them didn't want
>to make the "leap" to a brand-new innovation in fighting games. I know
>countless SFers who are content to play and master all the various Capcom
>SF-clones, and not bother with VF's steep learning curve. Thus, I'd argue
>that it was VF's high learning curve that was a primary reason for VF2's
>commercial failure in North America.
Well, except for the subtle SF-player bash, I agree with this. =)
SF2's learning curve certainly starts off more gentle than VF2's. The
effect is a finer partitioning of the lower ranks according to skill.
A completely new player who logs 20 hours on SF2 will trounce a newbie
with just 5 hours of play.
In VF2, this is much less the case. As a brand new player, I can spend
days systematically learing how to play the game, and a complete
newbie can step up to the machine, plop in his $.75, spazz away, and
have a pretty good shot at beating me. This is why VF2 gets a bad
rap as a button-masher's game.
Note the $.75 in the above paragraph. After my sound defeat, my most
likely response is to walk away from the game in disgust. If the game
was only $.25 a pop, I might have another go to teach grasshopper who's
boss. So, a high-learning curve in itself IMHO isn't all that bad,
but when combined with a high cash/play ratio, it's the kiss of death.
[snip]
>: Um...isn't Sega adding rendered "cut scenes" to VF3? Was that just
>: a rumor.
>
> Where did you hear this from? EGM? :)
No. I read it (several times), right here on r.g.v.arcade. =)
>
>: Anyway, I think you're overemphasizing the "ending" aspect of
>: my point here. It's the small details, like music, the character select
>: screen, fonts, etc. that I'm really talking about -- spit and polish.
>: Endings are just one aspect of this. VF2 looks like it was produced by
>: engineers...the engine itself is remarkable, but everything else (visually)
>: is wanting. (No cut to engineers intended...hey, I'm an engineer!)
>
> I can't disagree more. Maybe it's just your very subjective
>preference for a more cartoony, drawn-rather-than-rendered style of
>animation in fighting games?? Some people may counter that if Sega used
>funny, stylized fonts and cartoony music, the game would lose MUCH of its
>real character, which is that of a fairly accurate fighting simulation.
>(emphasis on the "fairly")
Ahhh! You keep inserting an SF-bias on top of all my arguments! I never
mention cartoons in the above paragraph. I don't care about cartoony
anything! All I'm saying is that from a graphical-design standpoint
(specifically fonts, the size and placement of items on the screen,
etc.) VF2 is really sub-par. What's with all the chrome all over the
place? If VF's character is "that of a fairly accurate fighting
simulation" then why do all these elements scream, "polygon engine
early beta" at me?
FV, though it isn't much of a game, goes a ways in improving this
aspect, IMHO.
[snip]
> Sure, Akira has more combos and "cool" looking moves than most of
>the other characters. But does this make him the only (or one of the
>only) enjoyable characters to use in VF2? Certainly not!
Well, of course not. The characters in VF2, expect Pai, are all
designed pretty well. My main gripe is that the Sega seems to have
lavished most of their attention on the favorite sun, and the other
players could have been better designed if they hadn't.
>I think VF2's
>character design speaks for itself; many people use a higher variety of
>the characters than in any other fighting game I can think of. There are
>no characters people avoid indiscriminately. Maybe in your city, but that
>is a special case (IMO). Compare this to SFA, where in nearly every
>SF-city I've been to or heard about, marginal characters like Dhalsim,
>Sodom and others are virtually ignored (same with Blackheart and Shuma
>Gorath in MSH).
Well, part of this IMHO is that SFA2 has nearly twice the characters
as VF2. With twice the characters, the higher-skill characters (Like
Dhalsim) tend to go unused. For the casual player, it's more
attractive to find a different character that you like and is easier to
play.
>
>: Regardless of other characters' virtues, it's simply a fact that Sega
>: loaded up Akira because they were disappointed in his popularity
>: in VF1. Hopefully they won't make the same mistake with Kage in VF3.
>
> Agree with the first part, but I don't agree that it was a
>mistake, for the reasons given above. If you look at VF2 in areas where
>it is even only moderately popular, you'll see that the excellent
>character balance is quite evident (character balance in terms of
>enjoyment of use). And I'm not even MENTIONING Japan. I guess the only
>exception I can think of to my own statement is that of Pai, and even
>that is a weak case.
Ok...you've proven your point on enjoyment, but that's only half the
story. The character balance as far as how GOOD the characters are
(like in a tournament) is what I was alluding to when I mentioned
the loading of Akira. Sure, in casual play you may see lots of
Shuns and Lions, but how many of these players stick to their guns
in a tournament, and how many go running to Akira?
[snip]
> As you can tell, VF2 is more sophisticated, detailed and complex
>than UMK3 or KI1/2, and this turns off countless kids in America/Canada.
>But these same characteristics also endear the game to an older, more
>mature demographic (IMHO). As an easy and simple test, just compare the
>ages and walks of life of the MOAT contestants, (and the RGVA regulars),
>to the ages of SF-tourney players and a.g.sf2 regulars. No contest. :)
Oh no...you've gone and gotten elitest on me. I was hoping that wouldn't
happen. I agree with one part of this, which is that VF2 is targeted
at a more mature audience. Where we disagree is that you seem to think
that that this gives you some kind of high ground, while I think it's
a blunder, at least for the Western audience. IMHO you could take VF2 and
add lots of "fluff" like rendered cutscenes, endings, etc. -- stuff that
"kids" care about and the die-hards don't -- and it would be a lot more
popular and would make a lot more money in the west. I don't see how
targeting for a narrow audience can be seen as a good thing for a
coin-op game.
And FYI, the average age of the B3 participant, which has signed up over
40 serious SF2ers from both U.S. and Canadian coasts with still a month
before the event, is over 21.
Sure, loads of kiddies like SF, but the diehards for both games are
probably around the same age.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
jus...@pe-nelson.com
>And FYI, the average age of the B3 participant, which has signed up over
>40 serious SF2ers from both U.S. and Canadian coasts with still a month
>before the event, is over 21.
Tee-hee... I'm the youngin'...:)
Moby
Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: Well, except for the subtle SF-player bash, I agree with this. =)
There ain't no subtle SF-player bash. :) Ask Chensor, I've been
through this with him. Where are ya, James??
[Thomas losing to a newbie snipped]
: Note the $.75 in the above paragraph. After my sound defeat, my most
: likely response is to walk away from the game in disgust. If the game
: was only $.25 a pop, I might have another go to teach grasshopper who's
: boss. So, a high-learning curve in itself IMHO isn't all that bad,
: but when combined with a high cash/play ratio, it's the kiss of death.
Can't disagree with this. <sigh> Maybe this indirectly, again,
makes VF2 appeal more to people who can AFFORD the high price and steep
learning curve... which indirectly means these people are in general a
little older (ie. make their own spending money). Right?
: No. I read it (several times), right here on r.g.v.arcade. =)
Sorry, but as far as I know, this rumour hasn't been
substantiated. Just WHO here on RGVA told you this? Maybe that'd help its
reliability. ;) Generally I trust GAMEST for VF3 news much more than ANY
American magazine...
: Ahhh! You keep inserting an SF-bias on top of all my arguments! I never
: mention cartoons in the above paragraph. I don't care about cartoony
: anything! All I'm saying is that from a graphical-design standpoint
: (specifically fonts, the size and placement of items on the screen,
: etc.) VF2 is really sub-par. What's with all the chrome all over the
: place? If VF's character is "that of a fairly accurate fighting
: simulation" then why do all these elements scream, "polygon engine
: early beta" at me?
: FV, though it isn't much of a game, goes a ways in improving this
: aspect, IMHO.
Then we definitely have to agree to disagree. And again, although
I hate to say this, it really does seem to me to be a clash of different
gaming groups' sensibilities. Most VF2ers I know (aside from Colin Leong
and a few more, heh) absolutely hate FV, and dread its existence. For
some, this INCLUDES the graphical design. For these people, VF2 is just
right, and in fact, is a welcome relief to the "jazzy" style of FV. From
what I can see, your opinion is nearly diametrically opposite.
: Well, of course not. The characters in VF2, expect Pai, are all
: designed pretty well. My main gripe is that the Sega seems to have
: lavished most of their attention on the favorite sun, and the other
: players could have been better designed if they hadn't.
I really don't think the other characters are designed poorly at
ALL. Can you give me some evidence? Or are you basing this solely on
character fighting potential? That is, just because a Shun can't beat an
Akira, that he's less-well designed? I don't really understand your point
if you don't give me an example of "poor character design". I've talked
to many non-VF2ers who say that Shun and Lion are two of the most unique
and interesting fighting characters in ALL fighting games.
: Ok...you've proven your point on enjoyment, but that's only half the
: story. The character balance as far as how GOOD the characters are
: (like in a tournament) is what I was alluding to when I mentioned
: the loading of Akira. Sure, in casual play you may see lots of
: Shuns and Lions, but how many of these players stick to their guns
: in a tournament, and how many go running to Akira?
I've answered this question many times before, and I'll just
repeat myself. I don't know how familiar you are with the VF2ers here on
RGVA, but there's a famous <smirk> Lion player here called Bigcat... and
there's a REALLY famous Akira player we like to call #4, as in 4th best
(but really 2nd best) in Taiwan. Now, #4 utilizes Akira with nearly his
FULL potential, so well that he seems nearly unbeatable. Well guess what
happens? Bigcat uses Lion ALL the way in the Montreal Tournament, and
beats #4 in the final... including all the other Akira bigshots too!
Let's see, more examples. The recent MOAT 2.1 in Toronto... an
Akira didn't even reach the finals! One contestant used Lion (again) and
Lau... the eventual winner (Colin Leong) used Akira and Kage in the final.
But even Colin's main (or most effective, or most impressive) characters
are his Lau and Kage, which he used to eliminate the top-ranked Akira
player in the tourney. (Caveat: if I'm wrong in any of these details,
please correct me, anybody out there... I apologize to the players for
talking about them without permission). :)
I think you get my point... I think maybe you need to watch some
expert-level competition (which is difficult in your area, I concede),
and get a better feel for how VF2's character balance really is...
: Oh no...you've gone and gotten elitest on me. I was hoping that wouldn't
: happen.
No no no no! That wasn't elitest, that was a joke... as I've
said, I've gone through this SO many times with Chensor, I wouldn't
bother bringing up the age issue again. And I'm keeping my OWN thoughts on
this issue out of this too! ;)
: I agree with one part of this, which is that VF2 is targeted
: at a more mature audience. Where we disagree is that you seem to think
: that that this gives you some kind of high ground, while I think it's
: a blunder, at least for the Western audience.
Where did I indicate that this gave me some sort of "high
ground"? Please, I think you're starting to assume things, which is
dangerous...
: IMHO you could take VF2 and
: add lots of "fluff" like rendered cutscenes, endings, etc. -- stuff that
: "kids" care about and the die-hards don't -- and it would be a lot more
: popular and would make a lot more money in the west. I don't see how
: targeting for a narrow audience can be seen as a good thing for a
: coin-op game.
Me neither... but Sega of Japan was designing the game PRIMARILY
for the enjoyment of Japanese gamers. Which makes sense,
Williams/Bally/Midway makes games that appeal to American gamers. It's
just that currently, the sensibilities of Japanese vs. American gamers
are different... in fact, different enough to make a game succeed in one
market, and fail in another. It was Sega of AMERICA's failure to market
the game properly in the U.S.
: And FYI, the average age of the B3 participant, which has signed up over
: 40 serious SF2ers from both U.S. and Canadian coasts with still a month
: before the event, is over 21.
Thanks for the info. See, I'm not elitest... except when it comes
to mindless flame wars over egos in a.g.sf2, compared to RGVA! That
was a joke.... sort of. :)
: Sure, loads of kiddies like SF, but the diehards for both games are
: probably around the same age.
I could take issue with this too, but I won't, because it
wouldn't mean anything, and it'd only make me elitest, right?
Okay Thomas, let me summarize our main points, to make myself
clear on the subject:
YOUR three reasons why VF2 failed in North America:
1) High price/play ratio
2) "tapping" style
3) no style/personality/charm
MY three reasons why VF2 failed:
1) High price/play ratio
2) steep learning curve
3) appealed to a different demographic than the primary gaming market in
U.S., a minor difference that made a HUGE difference on VF2's success
Is this right? BTW, I think Jirawat in this thread gave some more
EXCELLENT examples of why VF2 exploded in Japan, but failed here.
Allen Kim
Thomas Calvin Cannon wrote:
>
> So what happened with VF2? Since I live in one of the biggest
> SF hotspots in the US, I feel especially qualified to speak on
> this one. VF2 here died for three reasons. First of all, it
> gave you the least play for your money. VF2 was the most
> expensive fighter around, and its matches were the shortest.
> When you're just starting to learn a game, you want more than
> 20 seconds to play around.
Since the two places where I live here in the East (Ithaca, NY, and the
DC area) are pretty dead compared to the arcade gaming in California, I
feel pretty unqualified to speak on this one, but since this is
(supposedly) a free Internet, you'll just have to put up with my
ranting...
The biggest mistake that Sega made for VF2 was setting the default of
every machine to 2 out of 3 rounds. Putt-Putt in Rockville, MD, was
smart enough to set their VF2 machine to 3 out of 5 rounds, giving
players the same duration of gameplay as SF2. Typical VF2 games at the
2/3 setting quickly drove the newbies away. After all, wouldn't you
feel discouraged to try a game again if your butt was blasted in about
15 seconds? The 3/5 setting was, IMO, a perfect sweet spot of game
time. Not too long, yet not too quick.
> Reason number two? All that tapping. VF2's interface is designed
> to make moves more difficult to execute. All the moves....not just
> big and powerful ones. This IMHO is a braindead idea -- advanced
> players will be able to do most of the moves no matter what their
> execution, so all the VF interface does is alienate new players and
> make them want to quit the game.
This complaint is almost as frivolous as the "I don't like the guard
button" complaint. If you really want to complain, how about MK3's Run
button, which lets you run forward, but not backwards?
Seriously, the gameplay of VF2 is very different from the SF2 series, so
wouldn't the different controls make sense? To SF veterans, the VF2
interface may seem very difficult to get used to, but then again, the
VF2 _gameplay_ would also seem very alien to them as well.
It takes time to get used to the VF2 interface, just like it took a long
time for people to get used to the SF2 interface. The difference is
that SF2 came out first, thus it enjoyed the advantage of setting the
standard. As for VF2, people could have gotten used to the new
interface, if it weren't for that 2/3 rounds setting.
> Reason number three: outside of the match, VF2 has no style
> whatsoever. It's bland. The character select screen is bland,
> the winning poses are, for the most part, bland. There are no
> endings. The actual game is a joy to watch and play, but VF2
> gives me no reason whatsoever to care a whit about my character.
> All I know about Jerky is that he races cars...yippe. A LOT
> of people in SF play their characters passionately because they
> identify with the character's personality or story. It looks
> like this one is being fixed is VF3, fortunately.
Funny. I really can't identify with Sodom, especially since I don't
wear a mask or football pads, I'm not part of a street gang, I don't
have a cultish personality, and I don't have a name synonymous with you
know what.
Seriously, I can really get into characters from both the SF2 series and
VF2. Kage is the only serious fighting game "ninja" out there. Other
characters are "ninjas" by label or costume only, while Kage qualifies
as a true ninja by his fighting characteristics (even if his VF2 style
is jujitsu.) Also, Akira is an excellent no-nonsense fighter, proof
that good video game fighters don't need gynmastics. I even considered
looking into the style of Eight Extremes Fist because of him.
Of course, that doesn't change the fact that my all-time favorite
fighting game character is still Ryu, even if I don't play him much.
> This is Sega's fault, for loading up the "hero" character with all
> the most-interesing moves, simply because almost no one played him
> in the original. I tried championing Shun....I really really tried.
If only Capcom loaded up Ryu with all of the most interesting moves,
instead of just keeping him the "mother of all fireball trappers."
--
Allen Kim
ak...@mitre.org
kuroyume
Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: Well, without starting an advocacy war, I completely disagree with
: that last statement. =) Before I get into this, I'd like to preface
: that VF2 is an excellent game -- clearly one of the top two fighters
: ever (and maybe the top).
Okay. Here is a viewpoint from a die-hard SF player, but the scrubbiest
of VF2 players. :)
: At it's strategic core, SSF2T (the last "real" street fighter) is
: the same as SF2 Classic. All the elements that make SF2 a "deep"
: game, like ticking, whiff ticks, positional play, trapping, and
: well-timed attackes were nearly all introduced in the very first
: version of the game, and were discovered and exploited by the
: top players by the end of the second version (CE).
: What we've been getting since then has been a slew of features
: like Super Combos, new characters, and throw escapes. Some of
: these have been nice, and others awful, but none of them have
: fundamentally changed the game.
Well, the addition of rolls in SFA/SFA2, really screwed up the positional
play in SF, which was one of the strongest points about it's gameplay.
Of course, the addition of ACs, was the worst thing ever done by Capcom.
But I've said this too many times... :)
: So what happened with VF2? Since I live in one of the biggest
: SF hotspots in the US, I feel especially qualified to speak on
: this one. VF2 here died for three reasons. First of all, it
: gave you the least play for your money. VF2 was the most
: expensive fighter around, and its matches were the shortest.
: When you're just starting to learn a game, you want more than
: 20 seconds to play around.
Since I live in a good SF hotspot, but the worst VF2 area you could imagine,
especially considering San Diego is one of the largest cities in the US, I
am not qualified to speak on this, but I will anyways. :)
What you say is exactly how I feel. The twenty second round is one of my
biggest complaints about VF. IMO, they tried to make VF too realistic in
this department. This brings up the "scrub" factor I read about in another
response. Hey, a couple of lucky hits and pounces afterwards, and the scrub
has won. I know. I did it to our local [and only] VF master here the other
day in my first match I played against him. Did my victory feel satistying?
Nope. I just felt lucky as hell.
: Reason number two? All that tapping. VF2's interface is designed
: to make moves more difficult to execute. All the moves....not just
: big and powerful ones. This IMHO is a braindead idea -- advanced
: players will be able to do most of the moves no matter what their
: execution, so all the VF interface does is alienate new players and make
: them want to quit the game.
This is an interesting viewpoint, but one that is certainly valid. I
never liked all that damn tapping, especially when I was used to the *ahem*
more fluid motions of SF, but I do see the need for this type of interface
in a VF-type game. I'm sure most everyone has tried Toshinden, and although
I believe that SF could work in this type of environment somehow [don't ask
me how! :)], the game [Toshinden], seems incredibly shallow compared to VF2.
The sheer number of moves created by the VF interface is a feature I like,
but it is true that for the newbie, you do feel alienated, especially when
the slew of games that came before [and even after] consisted mostly of the
SF-type interfaces.
: Reason number three: outside of the match, VF2 has no style
: whatsoever. It's bland. The character select screen is bland,
: the winning poses are, for the most part, bland. There are no
: endings. The actual game is a joy to watch and play, but VF2
: gives me no reason whatsoever to care a whit about my character.
: All I know about Jerky is that he races cars...yippe. A LOT
: of people in SF play their characters passionately because they
: identify with the character's personality or story. It looks
: like this one is being fixed is VF3, fortunately.
I agree with this completely. VF2, despite its beautiful graphics and
gameplay, is bland. The characters are completly boring, IMO. Because
VF2 is supposed to be a realistic fighting game [no magical FBs, Psycho
Crushers, teleporting], it loses some of its flash-appeal. Yeah, I know
all this flash they put in games now is way overdone, but in nice-sized
doses [such as in the earlier SF games] it's a nice touch and helps add
to the characters charisma.
I personally think 95 percent of the storylines in SF are stupid, but it's
still nice to have in the game. Sega could have inserted some kind of
storyline in VF2 for the hell of it. Then again, why put something in that
will probably turn out to be stupid...
: The combined result of these factors meant that VF2 was
: essentially the most-watched game ever around here. People would play
: the CPU quite a bit, and hoards of people would watch to occasional
: 2 player match, but that's about it.
True. I love to watch two competent players going at it on VF2, but I
just can't find myself putting my quarter up on the machine.
I really tried to get into VF2 at one point, but with competition being
non-existant here, what's the point?
VF2 never made it in San Diego for most of the reasons that Tom listed
that he applied to the "west". Also, as much as I hate to admit it, in
many ways, VF2 is just too damn complex [or maybe I am just perceiving it
to be this?]. Despite the occasional button-mashing scrub who can flail
his way to victory, most players just cannot make the transistion. I know
only of one SF player here that has reached a competant level on VF2.
A lot of people still cannot cancel a Ryu low-forward into a ShinkuHadoken.
How do you expect these people, who cannot do a simple combo such as that,
to learn the intricate timing and strategy in a game such as VF2?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Painter | "Time after time, you try to find yourself...
pai...@rohan.sdsu.edu | nagareru toki no naka de. Taenai kizu dakishime
pai...@mail.sdsu.edu | Setsunasa no kaze ni mau...
| X JAPAN - "Dahlia"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Calvin Cannon
In article <4qf02a$r...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, Moby <hk...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
>Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
>
> Can't disagree with this. <sigh> Maybe this indirectly, again,
>makes VF2 appeal more to people who can AFFORD the high price and steep
>learning curve... which indirectly means these people are in general a
>little older (ie. make their own spending money). Right?
Yea! We agree on something! Though I question the word "appeal" here.
I don't think anyone finds the high price appealing. =)
[snip]
>: Well, of course not. The characters in VF2, expect Pai, are all
>: designed pretty well. My main gripe is that the Sega seems to have
>: lavished most of their attention on the favorite sun, and the other
>: players could have been better designed if they hadn't.
>
> I really don't think the other characters are designed poorly at
>ALL. Can you give me some evidence? Or are you basing this solely on
>character fighting potential? That is, just because a Shun can't beat an
>Akira, that he's less-well designed? I don't really understand your point
>if you don't give me an example of "poor character design".
I'm not saying that anyone's poorly designed (except Pai). See, I
even say that everyone is "designed pretty well" above.
But yeah, I'm talking about fighting potential when I talk about
design weaknesses. You'll love this, but maybe this is that SF-bias
taking over. In the west coast SF2 scene, tournaments are everything.
Since you VFers don't have as many tournaments (and I agree with Jirawat
that this is a shame) maybe a character's overall strenght isn't
as important.
> I've talked
>to many non-VF2ers who say that Shun and Lion are two of the most unique
>and interesting fighting characters in ALL fighting games.
Ya...I'd agree with this.
[snip]
>
>: Oh no...you've gone and gotten elitest on me. I was hoping that wouldn't
>: happen.
>
> No no no no! That wasn't elitest, that was a joke... as I've
>said, I've gone through this SO many times with Chensor, I wouldn't
>bother bringing up the age issue again. And I'm keeping my OWN thoughts on
>this issue out of this too! ;)
Oh ok...I apologise....I didn't get the joke. =) =) =)
[snip]
>: Sure, loads of kiddies like SF, but the diehards for both games are
>: probably around the same age.
>
> I could take issue with this too, but I won't, because it
>wouldn't mean anything, and it'd only make me elitest, right?
yep! =)
>
> Okay Thomas, let me summarize our main points, to make myself
>clear on the subject:
>
>YOUR three reasons why VF2 failed in North America:
>
>1) High price/play ratio
>2) "tapping" style
>3) no style/personality/charm
>
Call me Tom.
Anyway, you convinced me that the tapping doesn't matter...1 and 3 are
correct though, in a 70% 30% ratio.
>MY three reasons why VF2 failed:
>
>1) High price/play ratio
>2) steep learning curve
>3) appealed to a different demographic than the primary gaming market in
>U.S., a minor difference that made a HUGE difference on VF2's success
>
Yup...and I'd add that my #3 (little flash and style) is the reason
for your #3, if that makes and sense at all.
> Is this right? BTW, I think Jirawat in this thread gave some more
>EXCELLENT examples of why VF2 exploded in Japan, but failed here.
Yeah...awww heck. We agree on the big one, that being the price/play
ratio. That combined with Jirawat's comments on tournament scenes is
more than enough to explain the phenomenon. Everything else is rooted
in opinion and advocacy it seems, so I'll drop it.
So now here's the $20,000 question:
Will the mouth-watering, eye-popping graphics of VF3 be enough to overcome
the price/play ratio, which is rumored to be even worse that VF2, and
furthermore, will Sega wake up and try to foster some sort of tournament
scene in the West?
Discuss? =)
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Chris Finnie
In article <16...@lax.lax.pe-nelson.com>, jus...@pe-nelson.com says...
>Akira's good, but he's not the bastard Kage or Lau is. Kage: one
>b+p and you lose. Lau: One M-UpKn at the right time... you lose.
>Then again, with Akira, one well placed SE ends the match. Damn...
>thought I had something going there...:)
How 'bout Wolf, one T+H and you die. Jacky, one maj. counter flipkick +
heavy pounce and it's over. Pai, one sidekick stagger, chop float,
ground punch and it's over (hehe just kidding!)...
Anyways the thing I'm hoping for MOST in VF3 is lengthening the clock to
60 seconds, and cutting the damage by half. The reason? Look at Virtual
On. You get a friggin 99 seconds, for best of 3!!! That's WAY more worth
the cash than VF2. I say to compensate (yeah you can play best of 9
inVF2), is to limit VF3 machines to only best of 3, or best of 5. Most
will be best of 3 of course.
This IMO will have the more skilled player win games more often, and
give people more value for their money...
chris
Chris Finnie
>nod nod... Akira has a lot, but he is a rather higher end character.
>You can't just pick up and expect to win with Akira, like you can,
>say, with that bastard Kage.
WHAT?! No way, man. You can teach a monkey to pound your average VF2
scrub with Akira in minutes, just have them do smart super dash elbows,
and such, maybe the odd bodycheck afterwards, plus low reversals etc...
But KAGE? For him to be a BASTARD, you need to know at least TFT,
TAPppk, or TFT, m-knee pppk. Yeah some scrubs'll do TFT flipkick but
just don't give them the edge of the ring.
chris
Yoips
> No I said the cost was a MAJOR reason why VF2 suffered in the
>west. Other very obvious reasons are its high learning curve (especially
>compared to all Capcom fighting games), its relative scarcity (owners
>ordered many more KI and MK3s than VF2 based solely on assumption), and
>the fact that VF2 does not appeal to the largest American demographic of
>fighting games: teenage boys.
I disagree with anyone who pulls this high learning curve stuff. Look at
SF2, the original, it was months before anyone became really good,
including the dynamic duo Tomo and Tony... You're making the mistake of
comparing VF2 to the innumerable SF2 followups, sure it only takes a
couple weeks for players to master SFA, or SSF2, there were only a few
changes in gameplay from the original. And most arcades had SF2 at $.50
for the first few weeks/months just like most arcades had VF1/2 at $.50,
this in most of CA and OR. Almost all arcades that got SF2 got VF1,
you're correct about scarcity if you're talking about 7-11's and donut
shops. As for VF2, that is SEGA's own fault for charging so much when
arcade owners were tired of getting burned on buying fighting games that
didn't draw enough players, especially after VF1 didn't do very well.
You're right about the majority of Western players being teenage, but most
teenagers don't play a game very long, and don't compete regularly. IMO
you're missing the main reasons that VF didn't do well:
1. Because of the main draw to the VFanatics, it attempts to be realistic,
when the majority of the fighting game audience in the West prefer
cinematic. This isn't just teenagers, or people with no martial arts
experience, being able to throw a fireball in a game with good gameplay is
much more fun to most people than being able to throw a realistic punch in
a game with good gameplay.
2. Because fighting games were already getting old, SF2/SF2:CE/MK/SS were
the only ones able to capitalize on the newness of fighting games, the SFs
because they were the first and the best, MK because it was the first
digitized one, and SS because it was the first with only armed combat.
All of these fighting games had huge followings, ie. stacks of quarters,
crowds, and multiple machines. VF never had that, because the first was
just plain nasty looking, and by the time the second arrived, about half
of the fighting game players had moved on, and many of the rest weren't
interested in learning to play a game that wasn't similar to SF.
3. The same reason many other have stated, the shortness of fights, to go
from approx. 60-80 sec./2-10 rounds to 30 sec./2-3 rounds is a huge jump,
note that the SF2 99 counter was not in seconds. Not to mention the
addition of ring-outs which can only help to shrink the length of a round.
4. Finally the lack of 'fluff', ie. no ending, no beginning, no storyline,
no good vs. evil, no bosses(Dural is more bonus round than boss), etc.
'Fluff' doesn't make or break a game, look at Gauntlet, Pac-Man, or
Tetris, but combined with the other reasons it kept the VF series from
being popular in the West.
All of this is only IMO, and don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the VF
seires, it would be interesting if we could go back in time and create
both VF2 and SSF2T before SF2 and see which would win out.
Yoips
Spencer He of the knees Olson
I've tried to stay out of this discussion, mostly because, LONG ago,
I used to be involved in a SF v. MK conversation. Of course, nowadays
I'd probably pick a SF over a MK..
At any rate, my only comment is this:
If you're paying $.75 per play for VF2, I feel very sorry for you.
I go to an el cheapo arcade, and even they have always charaged .50.
Of course, I won't guarantee that they'll always fix the controls!
The place just got bought out by NAMCO :^/
ObCapcom: I haven't read agsf2 for the longest time.. have you guys
been discussing Super Puzzle Fighter 2 Turbo yet? _Great_ game, might
be enough to get Capcom out of it's fighting game slump. Sorta.
Spencer "that wasn't so bad.." Olson
to...@io.com
Chris Finnie
>Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
>: Reason number three: outside of the match, VF2 has no style
>: whatsoever. It's bland. The character select screen is bland,
What's so much better about the SFA2 select screen than the VF2 screen?
>: the winning poses are, for the most part, bland. There are no
Oh please. VF2's winning animations are INFINITELY better than SFA's.
Shun taking a drink, Wolf's howl, Jacky's kicks and Lau's laugh, I mean
these are all done smoothly and look as if they were real people. SFA2?
it just has stupid 4 or 5 frame animations, and most of them are pretty
stupid - just look at Sakura's RETARDED dance; I want to throw up every
time I see it.
>: endings. The actual game is a joy to watch and play, but VF2
>: gives me no reason whatsoever to care a whit about my character.
>: All I know about Jerky is that he races cars...yippe. A LOT
>: of people in SF play their characters passionately because they
>: identify with the character's personality or story. It looks
>: like this one is being fixed is VF3, fortunately.
I cannot believe what I'm seeing here. I, personally, don't know ANYONE
who played SF2/SFA who gave a rat's ass about the character's
personality or story. As far as _I_ know, people here play their SF
characters just as VF2ers play their characters. I see no difference
whatsoever. After some lengthy win streaks in SFA/SFA2, I would be stuck
playing the CPU and on occasion I would win the game, but I just walk
away when I do, I've never bothered to look at them or read them, they
are meaningless to me. On upright machines, I'll go to the back and
reset the machine so I don't have to wait as long - everyone here does
this.
chris
Moby
Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: > Can't disagree with this. <sigh> Maybe this indirectly, again,
: >makes VF2 appeal more to people who can AFFORD the high price and steep
: >learning curve... which indirectly means these people are in general a
: >little older (ie. make their own spending money). Right?
: Yea! We agree on something! Though I question the word "appeal" here.
: I don't think anyone finds the high price appealing. =)
Heh, okay, you got a point there. Hmmm, would "more acceptable"
be an appropriate substitution?
: I'm not saying that anyone's poorly designed (except Pai). See, I
: even say that everyone is "designed pretty well" above.
: But yeah, I'm talking about fighting potential when I talk about
: design weaknesses. You'll love this, but maybe this is that SF-bias
: taking over. In the west coast SF2 scene, tournaments are everything.
: Since you VFers don't have as many tournaments (and I agree with Jirawat
: that this is a shame) maybe a character's overall strenght isn't
: as important.
True... but the group of Lions did VERY well at the recent MOAT
2.1, with one reaching the finals. Does this mean Lion has a weak
fighting potential? I think Joe's Shun (in Toronto) would do extremely
well in ANY VF2 tournament... what does this say about Shun? I think the
major point here is that since SO FEW PEOPLE use Shun at a high level, it
might be incomprehensible to SOME people (like you and other SFers) that
a Shun could be played on a level that is competitive with top Akiras. Right?
: > I've talked
: >to many non-VF2ers who say that Shun and Lion are two of the most unique
: >and interesting fighting characters in ALL fighting games.
: Ya...I'd agree with this.
Yay!!
: Oh ok...I apologise....I didn't get the joke. =) =) =)
See, you gotta understand Tom, it's EXTREMELY dangerous for me to
be elitest in Vancouver. There are more SFers here than you can shake a
stick at... not to mention Chris Finnie. :)
: >YOUR three reasons why VF2 failed in North America:
: >
: >1) High price/play ratio
: >2) "tapping" style
: >3) no style/personality/charm
: Anyway, you convinced me that the tapping doesn't matter...1 and 3 are
: correct though, in a 70% 30% ratio.
Well, it's nice to see we agree on most everything EXCEPT your
#3. I'd like to add that it seems that it is primarily SFers who feel
this way about VF2. Why this is so, I can't explain... :)
: >MY three reasons why VF2 failed:
: >
: >1) High price/play ratio
: >2) steep learning curve
: >3) appealed to a different demographic than the primary gaming market in
: >U.S., a minor difference that made a HUGE difference on VF2's success
: Yup...and I'd add that my #3 (little flash and style) is the reason
: for your #3, if that makes and sense at all.
This is another point of contention... it's not the lack of flash
and style, but rather the depth of the game itself which turns off people
who are USED to quick gratification (ie. the KI/MK crowd), IMO.
: Yeah...awww heck. We agree on the big one, that being the price/play
: ratio. That combined with Jirawat's comments on tournament scenes is
: more than enough to explain the phenomenon. Everything else is rooted
: in opinion and advocacy it seems, so I'll drop it.
Yeah exactly, we agree on 2 outta 3, so that's good enough. Heck,
that's a "win" in a fighting game. :)
: So now here's the $20,000 question:
: Will the mouth-watering, eye-popping graphics of VF3 be enough to overcome
: the price/play ratio, which is rumored to be even worse that VF2, and
: furthermore, will Sega wake up and try to foster some sort of tournament
: scene in the West?
Just one answer from me.... Chris Finnie has decided to embark on
a quest to become a VF3 master. 'Nuff said. :)
P.S. One final little caveat to our interesting discussion. The biggest
single disappointment to me, as a VF2er, amidst VF2's failure in North
America, is the inability of the game to attract such skilled and
valuable members of the fighting game community such as yourself and Bob
Painter (or Chris). I can't imagine what RGVA would have been like a
half-year ago, if all you SF die-hards were part of the VF2 scene here. :)
We can rectify that problem with VF3. :)
Mark Zedaker
In article <4qeq2c$m...@elaine31.Stanford.EDU>
ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) writes:
> Note the $.75 in the above paragraph. After my sound defeat, my most
> likely response is to walk away from the game in disgust. If the game
> was only $.25 a pop, I might have another go to teach grasshopper who's
> boss. So, a high-learning curve in itself IMHO isn't all that bad,
> but when combined with a high cash/play ratio, it's the kiss of death.
Where are you guys playing that you have to pay so much? $.75 for
a game of VF2? $.50 for SFA2? Man, I must be lucky, in a way; the
Yellow Brick Road where I play has *every* game set for a quarter,
whether it be Bubble Bobble or VF2 (although I HAVE seen places where
even crappy games like The Simpsons Arcade were $.50). Oh well...
nobody pays VF2 around here anyway, or I'd give it more of a chance.
o--------------------------------o-----------------------------------o
|Mark Zedaker |IRC: Tux_Mlvn |
|ak...@powergrid.electriciti.com |http://www.electriciti.com/~akuma/ |
o--------------------------------o-----------------------------------o
| Message... sending...ACTIVATION! |
o--------------------------------------------------------------------o
| SFA2 code: t+(++) c T -> T+ r f g m? -s+ v+ M+(M) n++:+ o+ |
o--------------------------------------------------------------------o
Mark Zedaker
In article <4qf3u5$i...@gondor.sdsu.edu>
pai...@rohan.sdsu.edu (kuroyume) writes:
> I'm sure most everyone has tried Toshinden, and although
> I believe that SF could work in this type of environment somehow [don't ask
> me how! :)], the game [Toshinden], seems incredibly shallow compared to VF2.
Aaahhhh, something I'm actually qualified to speak about, at last!
I've been playing this game a LOT lately, especially since I just
bought a PSX ^_^ Anyway.
TohShinDen (at least part 1. You can see my views on part 2 in
r.g.v.sony) has the potential to be a fairly interesting game IMHO.
Not as deep as VF2, but it's got potential, with "reversal timing",
some interesting positional ideas, etc.
The ONE thing that ruins it is Ellis' EXTREMELY easy to execute
"semi-infinite" combo (only "semi-infinite" because the game cuts it
off at ~50% damage and knocks the poor sap down). Another reason that
it 'seems' to lack depth is the fact that.. well, it's a console game,
and the need to develop new strategies that's FORCED by playing
strangers in an arcade is just not there.
I myself would be REALLY interested in a TSD1 tournament (barring
Ellis from competition, of course ^_^)
Carlo emilio Ang - MECE/W94
Moby (hk...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
: P.S. One final little caveat to our interesting discussion. The biggest
: America, is the inability of the game to attract such skilled and
: valuable members of the fighting game community such as yourself and Bob
: Painter (or Chris). I can't imagine what RGVA would have been like a
: half-year ago, if all you SF die-hards were part of the VF2 scene here. :)
: We can rectify that problem with VF3. :)
The thing is, us VF2 veterans will just fall back on our old Vf2 stuff
and scare the VF3 newbies away. I dunno, it takes a REAL stubborn head,
and loaded bank account, to say "I'll learn a new guy and wipe the floor
with those dinosaurs". That was me when I first embarked on my anti-Ryu/
Ken crusade in SSF2.
Things might be different now in VF3 though. Because when VF2 first
came out, there was not much competition, it was JUST before and
after MoAT 1 that competition really exploded. And even then, the
only good folks were the guys who played VF2 when it first came out,
and did not drop it. So one can imagine an SF'er learning VF2 in
it's early days; no competition (miniscule compared to scale of competition
on SF), so forget it. Now though, Finnie and other SF'ers who missed
out on VF know WHO and where the competition is, so it makes sense that
competitive blood will compell them to get good at VF3.
I REALLY think that this is why the VF and SF audience margin is sooo
defined. With the exception of a few overlaping folks between SF and VF,
most folks left VF because no competition early on. Then you get guys
who play VF but do not play ANY SF. They did not feel the competitive
vaccum that SF'ers felt, and of course the realism of the game drew
them in, so BANG rvga VF'er. Speaking for the Toronto rvga'ers I'm
the only person who can play SF and VF well enough (to suck at tournaments).
Don't know why.. I think it's coz I kept on migrating between SF and
VF. The same reason I'm never bored with either game, is the same
reason I'm not amazing at either.
Well, things like the MoAT have served to make people stand up and
notice VF, so things will REALLY change by the time VF3 rolls around..
Prob is, for sure VF3 will be too expensive for it's own good.
Arcade owners will of course price the game according to drool factor.
Alan Tan Kee Hian
: story. The character balance as far as how GOOD the characters are
: (like in a tournament) is what I was alluding to when I mentioned
: the loading of Akira. Sure, in casual play you may see lots of
: Shuns and Lions, but how many of these players stick to their guns
: in a tournament, and how many go running to Akira?
Well, there are GOOD lions around you know..... *wave* haha
I dun know abt Shun but Lion is definately a match for ANY Akira or Kage
I've seen. In fact, I think Lau is the one who should be outlawed. Lau
can kill you with Just one float, what's the point of playing. Worse is
that that all his moves pushes you so much and force you to stop
turtling. In fact one of the MAJOR success of VF2 was that turtling is
not as rewarding as compared to other games.
Another good point is the overall character balance is much better. I dun
really play SF but it seems to me that at the TOP level of play, there
seems to be only a few characters that is playable if you want to win.
VF2 is different as even though the learning curves for each character is
different, the potential is abt the same.
Alan Tan
Thomas Calvin Cannon
In article <4qfkf0$2...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, Moby <hk...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
>Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
[snip]
> True... but the group of Lions did VERY well at the recent MOAT
>2.1, with one reaching the finals. Does this mean Lion has a weak
>fighting potential? I think Joe's Shun (in Toronto) would do extremely
>well in ANY VF2 tournament... what does this say about Shun? I think the
>major point here is that since SO FEW PEOPLE use Shun at a high level, it
>might be incomprehensible to SOME people (like you and other SFers) that
>a Shun could be played on a level that is competitive with top Akiras. Right?
This is something that every die-hard SFer should be _very_ familiar
with. How many people do you think play Zangief at a high level? As
you mentioned earlier, SF has more "fringe" characters than VF.
I'm more inclined to believe that your case above means that Joe and
these Lion people are exceptional players. As a counter example, Bob Painter
won the recent SSF2T tournament in Las Vegas with Honda and Zangief, who are
both considered to be sub-par players. Before the tournament, anyone
actually *winning* with Honda was laughable.
This is a messy situation, and it's difficult to rank characters. It's
possible that the Lions did so well specifically _because_ there are so
few good ones and the tactics were unfamiliar to other players. If
Lion caught on and more high-skill Lions developed, his "ranking" might
plummet again as people discovered counters to the style. If there
were lots of camera-tricking Shun players out there, the tricks may
become less effective, so Shun isn't so hot anymore.
But, it's a mess, and not really worth fighting over. =)
[snip]
>: So now here's the $20,000 question:
>
>: Will the mouth-watering, eye-popping graphics of VF3 be enough to overcome
>: the price/play ratio, which is rumored to be even worse that VF2, and
>: furthermore, will Sega wake up and try to foster some sort of tournament
>: scene in the West?
>
> Just one answer from me.... Chris Finnie has decided to embark on
>a quest to become a VF3 master. 'Nuff said. :)
Yeah, but Chris changes his mind with each new dawn. You should have
heard him during the beta-testing of SFA2. "That's it...I will NEVER
play this game, *EVER*....FUCK CAPCOM!!!!" =) =)
>P.S. One final little caveat to our interesting discussion. The biggest
>single disappointment to me, as a VF2er, amidst VF2's failure in North
>America, is the inability of the game to attract such skilled and
>valuable members of the fighting game community such as yourself and Bob
>Painter (or Chris). I can't imagine what RGVA would have been like a
>half-year ago, if all you SF die-hards were part of the VF2 scene here. :)
>
> We can rectify that problem with VF3. :)
Yah. Hopefully.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Mr & Mrs Swillmaster & Son
> >decision; in fact, most people would rather there have been NO story
> >whatsoever!! People in VF care about the characters through identifying
> >with their design, or through playing them... I know that's true for me.
>
> To paraphrase you, Sega takes a minimal approach because they feel
> that many people don't care about storylines. As support, the die-
> hard VFers feel the same way.
>
> But this thread was started because the die hard SFers outnumber the die
> the west, this has to be a reason, IMHO. Saying that the minimal
> approach is ok because the most ardent fans think it's ok doesn't work.
I disagree. When you first come up to a game and read about it in the
mags, the backstory given is minimal and bland. SF had some, but thye
all had SOME. The TRUE test of how popular it is comes down to what
happens when you walk up and play or watch for the first time, totally
removed from background knowledge of the game and going mostly on the
graphics and complexity/flash of the moves you see. This is why VF2
wasn't as spectacularly popular in the US, plain and simple. most
useful and most often utilized moves in this game, even the "special"
ones, are all no more complex and interesting looking <maybe even LESS
complex and interesting looking> as the simple f+button, d+button,
d+another button etc. attacks that you see in street fighter.
Backgrounds and characters in SF DID look more interesting. I'll give
anyone that. I mean, the variety in SF was HUGE between characters.
There was only one set of clones <back in the day> ... ryu and ken. In
VF, every character seems to have a counterpart. The differences
between zangief and honda are day and night compared to the differences
between wolf and jeffry. Sarah has jacky. Lion has shun I guess in the
weird category of "new guys with off the wall styles who can dodge"..
pai has lau, in at least SOME respects.. only the kage and akira
pairing is different enough to break this pattern, and even they are
both japanese martial artists with the same overall speed ratings and
body types and weights <mostly>. Besides other similarities such as
lethal throws and reversals. the backgrounds in Vf have ALWAYS been
pretty boring. I only like two, dural's and kage's. The rest... well
let's just say that jacky's stage doesn't strike any deep chords, and
while shun's was cool when I first saw it, akira's, lau's, and jeffry's
WEREN'T. This has been TOTALLY fixed in three.
> How does the average guy feel about the minimal approach? Most don't
> like it, according to the VF2 fan-base. Drama, personality, spit &
> polish, and charm sell in the west, and VF2 doesn't take advantage of
> this.
>
IMHO, If sega created an equally deep and involving backstory in VF,
it'd be exactly as popular as it is today. The backstory is a
non-factor. It's ninety nine percent the factors you and I have already
mentioned, the look, feel, learning curve, and flashiness.
And it IS valid to say that the lack of a backstory is supported NOT
because that's how sega did it, but because it's something some people
just don't care about. The success of VF in japan to >ME< indicates
that of all the factors explaining the lack of popularity in the US,
storyline is not one of them. Or would you say that it'd concievably be
MORE popular in japan than even it was a year ago if it had the benefit
of a storyline?
> Um...isn't Sega adding rendered "cut scenes" to VF3? Was that just
> a rumor.
I never heard of it..
> Anyway, I think you're overemphasizing the "ending" aspect of
> my point here. It's the small details, like music, the character select
> screen, fonts, etc. that I'm really talking about -- spit and polish.
> Endings are just one aspect of this. VF2 looks like it was produced by
> engineers...the engine itself is remarkable, but everything else (visually)
> is wanting. (No cut to engineers intended...hey, I'm an engineer!)
>
I agree, the select screen and little touches do matter. And endings
would have been nice.
> Ah ha...."very beautiful to watch style." But how fun or interesting
> are these characters to play, compared to the golden boy Akira?
I'm pretty positive that in terms of "interesting to play" shun and lion
whup the living hell out of akira.
> Characters like Shun, Lau, and Pai (of course) just don't have as many
> tools as Akira.
Actually, lau is loaded, his move selection is sparse, but each one is
so packed with effective uses that it makes up for it. The only thing
akira has that even approaches the knife hands in usefulness is the
dashing elbow and surprise exchange.
And lau IS boring as hell, and IS intentionally overpowered on sega's
part, which kinda supports both our arguments.
Actually, Lau IS fun for a WHILE when you start getting good at the rush
and variations. But I don't think he holds a candle to lion in terms of
variety of play and interesting tactics. All opinion.
> Just look at the FAQ...how many pages are devoted
> just to Akira's moves?? Shun's got the dodge, and Lau's got the rush,
> but Akira has practically everything -- combos, throws, reversals,
> the taiwan step (yeah, I know that everyone can crouch dash, but
> if you're Shun, what's the point?)....
>
Shun makes use of it for his energy sapping old man palm combos <shrug>
and it's a better mode of locomotion anyway. As for looking at the
faq's... uhh, go look at the kage faq. It's like, what, 700 K?
> Regardless of other characters' virtues, it's simply a fact that Sega
> loaded up Akira because they were disappointed in his popularity
> in VF1. Hopefully they won't make the same mistake with Kage in VF3.
>
? Kage is monster popular in VF2. And already totally loaded.
I hear kage is to be the new "hero" so expect him to lose the
godawfulness of the TFT <no justification for it now with the reduced
jump/float stuff in VF3> and make up for it with a ton of wickedly
useful new moves.
> >VF2), then I don't mind at all. I think that most of the gripes you
> >mention can be characterzied as "SF-biased", which is not a bad thing,
> >even though Chensor vehemently denies it. :) I mean, I don't think you'll
> >see TK2 or SE2 players gripe about the same things you have.... <shrug>
>
> With the exception of the "tapping" gripe,
Actualy, the tapping thing DOES work, the majority of us STILL can't
SPoD 100 percent and tapping <and requiring PRECISION, which is a more
important point than tapping> really adds to the challenge of mastery
and DOES affect gameplay even at higher levels.
> I really think my bias
> would be better described as "western" than "sf2." According to
> your response, VF2 did poorly in the west simply because it cost too
> much. This does nothing to explain why inferior games that cost just as
> much (like KI and MK3 in the beginning) did incredibly well. MK3 was
> $1 a game when it first game out, and people stood in line to play it.
>
> ---
> Tom Cannon
> ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Right, and then it died peacefully. Huzzah.
Too expensive is an important point as well, just not the only point. I
mean, JUST now the game settings all over the place are changing to one
quarter, best of five/seven, etc.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
In article <4qfbro$1...@carrera.intergate.bc.ca>,
Chris Finnie <sfi...@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
>>Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
[snip]
>>: endings. The actual game is a joy to watch and play, but VF2
>>: gives me no reason whatsoever to care a whit about my character.
>>: All I know about Jerky is that he races cars...yippe. A LOT
>>: of people in SF play their characters passionately because they
>>: identify with the character's personality or story. It looks
>>: like this one is being fixed is VF3, fortunately.
>
>I cannot believe what I'm seeing here. I, personally, don't know ANYONE
>who played SF2/SFA who gave a rat's ass about the character's
>personality or story. As far as _I_ know, people here play their SF
>characters just as VF2ers play their characters. I see no difference
>whatsoever.
You're nitpicking Chris. My point is that, in general, the SF characters
are more fully developed as icons (like Mario) that the VFers, because of
the story, etc. Of course no one plays the game _because_ of the story,
which does indeed suck. Having some kind of background about the
characters, however, does give most people more of a reason to care about
them, instead of seeing the characters as tools for racking up win
streaks.
Examples: All the excellent fan fiction in the brawl archive.
All those Dan players
Chensor's Charlie->Blanka joke speculation.
Remember, I'm talking about Joe-average here. You know, the guy
who plays the game casually, enters tournaments on a whim if ever, etc.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Chris Finnie
In article <4qea69$c...@nostromo.clas.ufl.edu>,
jir...@quark.phys.ufl.edu says...
>did that in Drunken Master!") In Japan, girls actually played VF2,
>automatically increasing its attractiveness. While in the States
>the amount of estrogen in a typical arcade would fit in a shot gas
>with room left over for Stoli, bananna Schnapps, and tobasco ssauce.
Hey, there's plenty of girls at the arcade I play at! But I live in
Vancouver, which may be a bit different than your avg. yank arcade.
chris
Mr & Mrs Swillmaster & Son
> : Well, except for the subtle SF-player bash, I agree with this. =)
>
> There ain't no subtle SF-player bash. :) Ask Chensor, I've been
> through this with him. Where are ya, James??
>
I'll have to do.
> [Thomas losing to a newbie snipped]
>
> : Note the $.75 in the above paragraph. After my sound defeat, my most
> : likely response is to walk away from the game in disgust. If the game
> : was only $.25 a pop, I might have another go to teach grasshopper who's
> : boss. So, a high-learning curve in itself IMHO isn't all that bad,
> : but when combined with a high cash/play ratio, it's the kiss of death.
>
> Can't disagree with this. <sigh> Maybe this indirectly, again,
> makes VF2 appeal more to people who can AFFORD the high price and steep
> learning curve... which indirectly means these people are in general a
> little older (ie. make their own spending money). Right?
Right.
>
> : Ahhh! You keep inserting an SF-bias on top of all my arguments! I never
> : mention cartoons in the above paragraph. I don't care about cartoony
> : anything! All I'm saying is that from a graphical-design standpoint
> : (specifically fonts, the size and placement of items on the screen,
> : etc.) VF2 is really sub-par. What's with all the chrome all over the
> : place? If VF's character is "that of a fairly accurate fighting
> : simulation" then why do all these elements scream, "polygon engine
> : early beta" at me?
>
> : FV, though it isn't much of a game, goes a ways in improving this
> : aspect, IMHO.
>
> Then we definitely have to agree to disagree. And again, although
> I hate to say this, it really does seem to me to be a clash of different
> gaming groups' sensibilities. Most VF2ers I know (aside from Colin Leong
> and a few more, heh) absolutely hate FV, and dread its existence. For
> some, this INCLUDES the graphical design. For these people, VF2 is just
> right, and in fact, is a welcome relief to the "jazzy" style of FV.
While it might just be a personal opinion thing, I see Tom Cannon's
point and agree. There really COULD have been something more done with
the VF basic outlines that go around the great fighting game to make it
look like a polished product. Don't get me wrong, in terms of actual
gameplay and fighting graphics, it screams polished, millions of little
nice touches. But the miscellany needs work. The fonts and other stuff
are pretty bland and standard <standardized with the series?> .. I like
the lack of clutter on the screen, And the intro is fine, but the
character select screen is a plain steel texture with the close up
character portraits that accompany the hand-drawn boxes, which are
arranged in a row at the bottom. Blah. I'm going to sound pompous for a
bit and point out that I'm a design major, I know some of what I'm
talking about, and the design IS bland. It's no-frills bordering on
minimalist. The nicest touch to the game over VF1 in terms of
miscellaneous artistic touches is the fire behind the character's large
portraits on the select screen. The rest is the SAME, if nicer quality
and with actual textures.
From
> what I can see, your opinion is nearly diametrically opposite.
>
> : Well, of course not. The characters in VF2, expect Pai, are all
> : designed pretty well. My main gripe is that the Sega seems to have
> : lavished most of their attention on the favorite sun, and the other
> : players could have been better designed if they hadn't.
>
> I really don't think the other characters are designed poorly at
> ALL. Can you give me some evidence? Or are you basing this solely on
> character fighting potential? That is, just because a Shun can't beat an
> Akira, that he's less-well designed? I don't really understand your point
> if you don't give me an example of "poor character design". I've talked
> to many non-VF2ers who say that Shun and Lion are two of the most unique
> and interesting fighting characters in ALL fighting games.
>
Agreed, there's no bad design EXCEPT possibly the WEAKEST, pai. In terms
of balancing the character's strengths and weaknesses, the designer's
job is done almost perfectly. Pai has too many weaknesses compared to
her strengths, but even she has some pretty absurd abilities for her
frame. That's how every character is balanced, even shun... they're all
overpowered in some way. Some are overpowered in MANY ways.
> : Ok...you've proven your point on enjoyment, but that's only half the
> : story. The character balance as far as how GOOD the characters are
> : (like in a tournament) is what I was alluding to when I mentioned
> : the loading of Akira. Sure, in casual play you may see lots of
> : Shuns and Lions, but how many of these players stick to their guns
> : in a tournament, and how many go running to Akira?
> I think you get my point... I think maybe you need to watch some
> expert-level competition (which is difficult in your area, I concede),
> and get a better feel for how VF2's character balance really is...
>
I agree, except, uhm, well, akira IS overpowered and yeah, he does win
tournaments. Ask johnny hom, the winner of the big gamest sponsored
tokyo battle was an akira, and in his words, it's almost ASSUMED an
akira is going to win in a tournament. It always seems to come down to
the most technically proficient akira, the most creative <and
technically proficient, but that's a GIVEN> lau, and the most evil <only
word for it> kage :)
> : Oh no...you've gone and gotten elitest on me. I was hoping that wouldn't
> : happen.
>
> No no no no! That wasn't elitest, that was a joke... as I've
> said, I've gone through this SO many times with Chensor, I wouldn't
> bother bringing up the age issue again. And I'm keeping my OWN thoughts on
> this issue out of this too! ;)
>
you DO tend to get a little elitist on 'em you know. But that's okay.
I dragged out a lot of the elitist crap on james too. But we focused on
gameplay most of all.
> : I agree with one part of this, which is that VF2 is targeted
> : at a more mature audience. Where we disagree is that you seem to think
> : that that this gives you some kind of high ground, while I think it's
> : a blunder, at least for the Western audience.
>
> Where did I indicate that this gave me some sort of "high
> ground"? Please, I think you're starting to assume things, which is
> dangerous...
>
No, you did sound kinda fulla it moby when you were like "well, just
compare the demographics of the average VFer with the <implied>>>
average snot nosed teenage punk SFer.
:) oh wait, moby, did you want me to back you up on this one? :)
> : IMHO you could take VF2 and
> : add lots of "fluff" like rendered cutscenes, endings, etc. -- stuff that
> : "kids" care about and the die-hards don't -- and it would be a lot more
> : popular and would make a lot more money in the west. I don't see how
> : targeting for a narrow audience can be seen as a good thing for a
> : coin-op game.
>
> Me neither... but Sega of Japan was designing the game PRIMARILY
> for the enjoyment of Japanese gamers.
and it worked, take note Tom.
Which makes sense,
> Williams/Bally/Midway makes games that appeal to American gamers. It's
> just that currently, the sensibilities of Japanese vs. American gamers
> are different... in fact, different enough to make a game succeed in one
> market, and fail in another. It was Sega of AMERICA's failure to market
> the game properly in the U.S.
>
And even then, the people who DO discover and dedicate to the game
really do seem to stick with it and turn fanatical, shunning <heh>
others fighters more often than not.
The game has the appeal and staying power, it just takes a little <okay,
a lot> of time and money to let yourself become addicted.
> : And FYI, the average age of the B3 participant, which has signed up over
> : 40 serious SF2ers from both U.S. and Canadian coasts with still a month
> : before the event, is over 21.
>
> Thanks for the info. See, I'm not elitest... except when it comes
> to mindless flame wars over egos in a.g.sf2, compared to RGVA! That
> was a joke.... sort of. :)
>
Sort of, I DO notice more screaming, taunting, and general brattiness go
on among SFers than VFers. But Tom Cannon IS definitely an exception to
that.
> : Sure, loads of kiddies like SF, but the diehards for both games are
> : probably around the same age.
>
> I could take issue with this too, but I won't, because it
> wouldn't mean anything, and it'd only make me elitest, right?
>
Sure.
The age is irrelavent anyway.
> Okay Thomas, let me summarize our main points, to make myself
> clear on the subject:
>
> YOUR three reasons why VF2 failed in North America:
>
> 1) High price/play ratio
> 2) "tapping" style
> 3) no style/personality/charm
>
> MY three reasons why VF2 failed:
>
> 1) High price/play ratio
> 2) steep learning curve
> 3) appealed to a different demographic than the primary gaming market in
> U.S., a minor difference that made a HUGE difference on VF2's success
>
> Is this right? BTW, I think Jirawat in this thread gave some more
> EXCELLENT examples of why VF2 exploded in Japan, but failed here.
>
I gotta agree with you here moby. The learning curve is number one,
the price to play ratio is number two, and number three is what I'd
simply characterize and "glitzlessness"
Argh, someone post this bastard. I'm going to have a close talk with
the guy who runs this crappy news server. Right up close.
Chocobo
Thomas Calvin Cannon wrote:
> Yeah, but Chris changes his mind with each new dawn. You should have
> heard him during the beta-testing of SFA2. "That's it...I will NEVER
> play this game, *EVER*....FUCK CAPCOM!!!!" =) =)
Hehehe... I noticed that too... wish I was on here when that was first
posted....
Moby
Mr & Mrs Swillmaster & Son (me...@erols.com) wrote:
: > There ain't no subtle SF-player bash. :) Ask Chensor, I've been
: > through this with him. Where are ya, James??
: I'll have to do.
Damn, Creed's back... thought I was going to have some fun a
little longer. :) :)
: arranged in a row at the bottom. Blah. I'm going to sound pompous for a
: bit and point out that I'm a design major, I know some of what I'm
: talking about, and the design IS bland. It's no-frills bordering on
: minimalist. The nicest touch to the game over VF1 in terms of
: miscellaneous artistic touches is the fire behind the character's large
: portraits on the select screen. The rest is the SAME, if nicer quality
: and with actual textures.
Maybe the beauty of VF3 will be enough to draw in the crowds who
think VF2 is too bland (ie. Tom).
: you DO tend to get a little elitist on 'em you know. But that's okay.
: I dragged out a lot of the elitist crap on james too. But we focused on
: gameplay most of all.
Me? Really? I really try not to be y'know... I'm not suppressing
some sort of long-held inner resentment against SF or anything. :)
: > Where did I indicate that this gave me some sort of "high
: > ground"? Please, I think you're starting to assume things, which is
: > dangerous...
: No, you did sound kinda fulla it moby when you were like "well, just
: compare the demographics of the average VFer with the <implied>>>
: average snot nosed teenage punk SFer.
: :) oh wait, moby, did you want me to back you up on this one? :)
Damn damn damn, Creed is can post now..... if only you didn't live in
Virginia. :) Nice to see you back now though. Oh yeah, screw
implications, that's what I said to Chensor. :)
: And even then, the people who DO discover and dedicate to the game
: really do seem to stick with it and turn fanatical, shunning <heh>
: others fighters more often than not.
: The game has the appeal and staying power, it just takes a little <okay,
: a lot> of time and money to let yourself become addicted.
Yeah, and let me put it this way: if I get addicted to VF3 like I
did for VF2, I will be one very poor puppy.
: Sort of, I DO notice more screaming, taunting, and general brattiness go
: on among SFers than VFers. But Tom Cannon IS definitely an exception to
: that.
Okay, assumptions aside, would something like... oh... AGE have
anything to do with that "brattiness"? Tom? Bob? James? :)
Moby
Thomas Calvin Cannon (ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: This is something that every die-hard SFer should be _very_ familiar
: with. How many people do you think play Zangief at a high level? As
: you mentioned earlier, SF has more "fringe" characters than VF.
I know all about Zangief... in fact, I daresay I know much more
about SF than you do about VF. But that's beside the point.... I live in
a SF capital here, remember?
: But, it's a mess, and not really worth fighting over. =)
Yep, this mess ain't worth the typing, let alone the thinking. :)
: Yeah, but Chris changes his mind with each new dawn. You should have
: heard him during the beta-testing of SFA2. "That's it...I will NEVER
: play this game, *EVER*....FUCK CAPCOM!!!!" =) =)
The famous 2 personalities of Chris Finnie. :)
Chris Finnie
In article <4qhduf$g...@elaine47.Stanford.EDU>,
ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU says...
>This is something that every die-hard SFer should be _very_ familiar
>with. How many people do you think play Zangief at a high level? As
>you mentioned earlier, SF has more "fringe" characters than VF.
Anyone who plays Zangief at ALL, generally plays him at an acceptably
above average level. Because unless you possess equal or greater skill
than your opponent, you will almost always lose with Zangief because he
IS a weak character and is often the heavy inderdog in matchups due to
the inevitable poor character balance in a game with such diverse
arsenals and so many characters. VF2's balance is MUCH closer, to the
point where a relatively average Lion can beat a player slightly better
than him on occasion, and even stand a chance against a much better
player simply due to the fact VF2 characters have common basic moves
such as sidekicks, low punches, throws, and relatively equal mobility,
so that any character can dash in and heavily punish a whiffed attack or
recovering attack, while in SF, these are character-specific; Dhalsim
can easily low fierce Guile's Sonic Boom, whereas Zangief must use
tremendous skill to overcome this projectile due to his limited and
rather standard arsenal. He must walk up and SPD the SB as it comes out,
or backwards kick lariet through it where he can't be swept, or jump in
anticiaption of the attack, risking a counter in the process, whether it
be a stand jab, jump up fierce, FJ, or trip forward/roundhouse.
>I'm more inclined to believe that your case above means that Joe and
>these Lion people are exceptional players. As a counter example, Bob
>Painter
>won the recent SSF2T tournament in Las Vegas with Honda and Zangief,
>who are
>both considered to be sub-par players. Before the tournament, anyone
>actually *winning* with Honda was laughable.
EXCUSE ME? Honda, a sub-par character? Get out of here. Well at least I
have NEVER considered Honda to be weak. The only character that gives
him sufficient problems is Dee Jay. ALL other characters are beatable
opponents using structured methods and minimal guesswork. Honda outright
rapes half the characters in the game and is pretty much close to even
with the rest.
I will agree Zangief is a sub-par character, when the game is played at
a top level. But if you told me a Honda would win the tourney, no
disrespect to Bob Painter, but I would not be surprised at all.
>Yeah, but Chris changes his mind with each new dawn. You should have
>heard him during the beta-testing of SFA2. "That's it...I will NEVER
>play this game, *EVER*....FUCK CAPCOM!!!!" =) =)
That was the beta, where there was 100% invulnerable Custom Combos and
an invincible Charlie. I certainly would not put a quarter into such a
game.
VF3 will be here in September. SF3 will be here in early 1997. Frankly I
might not give a shit about SF by then; it's already dead anyways.
chris
Chris Finnie
In article <4qhf73$g...@elaine47.Stanford.EDU>,
ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU says...
>which does indeed suck. Having some kind of background about the
>characters, however, does give most people more of a reason to care
>about
>them, instead of seeing the characters as tools for racking up win
>streaks.
I will go as far as to say that I DO go out of my way to select the
'grenade toss' winning anim. for Rolento, simply because it is a non
verbal 'Fuck You', plus there's nothing better than seeing that joke of
a character Sakura get torched.
>Examples: All the excellent fan fiction in the brawl archive.
People READ these things?
> All those Dan players
Well, there WERE a couple Dan players in SFA1 who played him because he
was a (flukishly) fairly well designed character who made sense and had
honest strategy. The fact that Sagat killed his father, although
somewhat humourous, didn't influence them to pick him.
> Chensor's Charlie->Blanka joke speculation.
Wasn't this from SF the movie or something?
Oh yeah I'd like to proudly announce that I STILL have not seen the Van
Damme Street Fighter movie, nor the SF Anime in its entirety (I've seen
bits of both, but I'm not crazy enough to watch the whole thing). I
never will either. And I will also say that my favorite anime movie I've
seen (I've seen 2, the other one was AKIRA, which I regret renting) is
FIST OF THE NORTHSTAR. That was actually pretty funny.
chris
Milo D. Cooper
Chris Finnie wrote:
>
> In article <4qhduf$g...@elaine47.Stanford.EDU>,
> ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU says...
>
>> these Lion people are exceptional players. As a counter example, Bob
>> Painter
>> won the recent SSF2T tournament in Las Vegas with Honda and Zangief,
>> who are
>> both considered to be sub-par players. Before the tournament, anyone
>> actually *winning* with Honda was laughable.
>
> EXCUSE ME? Honda, a sub-par character? Get out of here. Well at least I
> have NEVER considered Honda to be weak. The only character that gives
> him sufficient problems is Dee Jay. ALL other characters are beatable
> opponents using structured methods and minimal guesswork. Honda outright
> rapes half the characters in the game and is pretty much close to even
> with the rest.
>
> I will agree Zangief is a sub-par character, when the game is played at
> a top level. But if you told me a Honda would win the tourney, no
> disrespect to Bob Painter, but I would not be surprised at all.
I agree with Chris, Tom. A lot of people hastily wrote
Honda off because the sumo got plastered by the dreaded shotokan
triumvirate (and maybe Dee Jay, as Finnie indicates), but against
nearly anyone else, Super Turbo Honda is a great pick. Who else
beats him outright -- Chun-Li, maybe? That's about it. I mean,
there were people in Vegas who didn't even know that Honda's spe-
cial throw could be stored (I wish that I'd known that). Bob is
easily the best Honda that I have ever seen, but a couple of us
San Diego players took a cue from Bob, and managed to kick a small
percentage of tail relative to Bob's city-wide sumo domination.
Honda *does* require more skill than most characters, but, similar
to Adam McMahon's discovery of Adon power, once you figure out his
quirky offense and head games, you can start working people. The
walking super certainly helps.
--
/|_____Milo D. Cooper_____|\
\| mdco...@ix.netcom.com |/
Chris Finnie
In article <31CD93...@ix.netcom.com>, mdco...@ix.netcom.com says...
>quirky offense and head games, you can start working people. The
>walking super certainly helps.
Another thing about Honda which I discussed with Painter but he admits
not using it to his advantage, is storing the super, and holding
offensive crouch with Honda, and when the enemy throws a fireball from
the right distance, you do the sumo smash over it, going from off.
crouch up to forward flip, and press kick, where you still retain your
super charge. Now if Ryu tries to sweep you, press punch and he'll be
wasted by the super.
The 2 things that give Honda an excellent chance to beat Ryu in SSF2T
are his moving upfierce, and his advancing hands. On a head-to-head
machine, this matchup is damn near even, because you can buffer in a
moving slap inside another move and Ryu simply cannot react to it.
On a side-to-side, it is ESSENTIAL that you develop the knack of 'faing'
a telegraphed hanslap, by pounding the kick buttons instead and inciting
a counter from the opponent, giving you a heabutt opportunity, or a
jump-in attempt.
When Honda has Ryu in the corner, it's as good as over IMO.
Actually I think Original Ken is a better pick than Ryu to defeat Honda.
His uppercut does more damage and is better to escape ticks with, not to
mention scrape damage, and his slow ball and footspeed let him do
fireball sweep patterns if Honda smashes over any fireballs. Basically
Ryu and Ken's best strategy is to rapidly press standing jab outside
Honda's standing roundhouse range, and fierce fireball him when he gets
within the proper range. Using this will force Honda to use some ESP or
a clever HHS advancement/fake.
chris
Milo D. Cooper
Chris Finnie wrote:
>
> In article <31CD93...@ix.netcom.com>, mdco...@ix.netcom.com says...
>
> >quirky offense and head games, you can start working people. The
> >walking super certainly helps.
>
> Another thing about Honda which I discussed with Painter but he admits
> not using it to his advantage, is storing the super, and holding
> offensive crouch with Honda, and when the enemy throws a fireball from
> the right distance, you do the sumo smash over it, going from off.
> crouch up to forward flip, and press kick, where you still retain your
> super charge. Now if Ryu tries to sweep you, press punch and he'll be
> wasted by the super.
Bob wasn't unaware of that tactic, though, because he's seen
me do it (though I would usually just do the forward-back-forward
motion during the splash itself).
> The 2 things that give Honda an excellent chance to beat Ryu in SSF2T
> are his moving upfierce, and his advancing hands. On a head-to-head
> machine, this matchup is damn near even, because you can buffer in a
> moving slap inside another move and Ryu simply cannot react to it.
Did you have turtle Ryus in your area of Canada? Slow hado-
kens thrown from the proper range were still hell to get around for
positioning or some kind of offensive attack, and supering through
them was suicide, thanks to Honda's non-combo super-combo.
> On a side-to-side, it is ESSENTIAL that you develop the knack of 'faing'
> a telegraphed hanslap, by pounding the kick buttons instead and inciting
> a counter from the opponent, giving you a heabutt opportunity, or a
> jump-in attempt.
We pretty much don't fool with silly side-to-side consoles in
San Diego. Street Fighter is a head-to-head game, in its past, pre-
sent, and future. I'm a purist; the action should take place entirely
onscreen, not partly onscreen and partly via one's peripheral vision.
With the consistent progress of telecommunications technology, this is
ultimately a negligible issue, anyway.
> When Honda has Ryu in the corner, it's as good as over IMO.
I concur -- it usually *is* over when Bob gets Ryu there, and
in any number of colorful ways.
> Actually I think Original Ken is a better pick than Ryu to defeat Honda.
> His uppercut does more damage and is better to escape ticks with, not to
> mention scrape damage, and his slow ball and footspeed let him do
> fireball sweep patterns if Honda smashes over any fireballs. Basically
> Ryu and Ken's best strategy is to rapidly press standing jab outside
> Honda's standing roundhouse range, and fierce fireball him when he gets
> within the proper range. Using this will force Honda to use some ESP or
> a clever HHS advancement/fake.
>
> chris
Well, there's still fierce hands danger at that range, but I
agree, in the main. That's why I say that shotokan beats Honda hands
down. Minimal effort and strategy is effective against even experi-
enced Hondas.
David Kirk Evans
In article <4qdr7e$n...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, Moby <hk...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
>Chocobo (cho...@concentric.net) wrote:
>: It seems to me the opposite is true... and since you somehow know that I
>: suck, I guess that means you were right. Anyway....
>: I agree. Adding a story is kinda nice, but it's not really important. I
>: don't think any MK players have a personal need to get revenge on Shao
>: Kahn for taking over the world.
>
> Yeah, but elaborate storylines like in MK really add substance to
>merchandising, and all the various other spinoffs that Williams can think
>of. Movie, cartoons, toys, paraphernalia, comic books, etc. etc. VF
>doesn't have any of this stuff, because it's storyline is so weak. :) And
>because Japanese gaming companies (Sega, Namco) don't generally take
>advantage of that stuff anyways....
>
I just wanted to throw in that over here in Japan, just last week I
was flipping through channels and found a VF2 Anime. Regular broadcast
tv too, and boy do I wish I had a vcr. Anyway, the week before that
I just bought the SF:V anime soundtrack. I know there is quite a bit
of VF2 merchandising going on around here, although what amount of it
gets back to the US I could not say.
dave
--
ev...@seas.smu.edu http://www.seas.smu.edu/~evans
or da...@nttkb.ntt.jp for the summer.
Maybe not eating people is the first step in making friends.-Omnipitus (Tick)
kuroyume
Milo D. Cooper (mdco...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Chris Finnie wrote:
: > Another thing about Honda which I discussed with Painter but he admits
: > not using it to his advantage, is storing the super, and holding
: > offensive crouch with Honda, and when the enemy throws a fireball from
: > the right distance, you do the sumo smash over it, going from off.
: > crouch up to forward flip, and press kick, where you still retain your
: > super charge. Now if Ryu tries to sweep you, press punch and he'll be
: > wasted by the super.
: Bob wasn't unaware of that tactic, though, because he's seen
: me do it (though I would usually just do the forward-back-forward
: motion during the splash itself).
Damn, even before I can respond with a "MIlo was the one who discovered this
around here" statement, you've already proclaimed it. :)
Anyways, I've known this for a while, thanks to Milo, but I don't bother
with it too much. Don't know why really... Actually, it's a pretty effective
tactic.
: > On a side-to-side, it is ESSENTIAL that you develop the knack of 'faing'
: > a telegraphed hanslap, by pounding the kick buttons instead and inciting
: > a counter from the opponent, giving you a heabutt opportunity, or a
: > jump-in attempt.
: We pretty much don't fool with silly side-to-side consoles in
: San Diego. Street Fighter is a head-to-head game, in its past, pre-
: sent, and future. I'm a purist; the action should take place entirely
: onscreen, not partly onscreen and partly via one's peripheral vision.
: With the consistent progress of telecommunications technology, this is
: ultimately a negligible issue, anyway.
This issue comes up every couple months and it's a non-issue. Fighting
games were meant to be played on head-to-heads. Period.
We in San Diego have known this since CE.
: > When Honda has Ryu in the corner, it's as good as over IMO.
: I concur -- it usually *is* over when Bob gets Ryu there, and
: in any number of colorful ways.
Yeah, it's tough for Ryu to escape the corner, but when the roles are
reversed, I'd say it's at least just as tough for Honda.
: > Actually I think Original Ken is a better pick than Ryu to defeat Honda.
: > His uppercut does more damage and is better to escape ticks with, not to
: > mention scrape damage, and his slow ball and footspeed let him do
: > fireball sweep patterns if Honda smashes over any fireballs. Basically
: > Ryu and Ken's best strategy is to rapidly press standing jab outside
: > Honda's standing roundhouse range, and fierce fireball him when he gets
: > within the proper range. Using this will force Honda to use some ESP or
: > a clever HHS advancement/fake.
: >
: > chris
: Well, there's still fierce hands danger at that range, but I
: agree, in the main. That's why I say that shotokan beats Honda hands
: down. Minimal effort and strategy is effective against even experi-
: enced Hondas.
Ryu, Ken, Dee Jay, Chun-Li, and Guile all have an advantage over Honda. FB
characters were just always Honda killers. Well, with the exception of Sagat
[I'd say that's pretty even], and Dhalsim [kind of an even fight as well].
Ken is more effective against Honda than Ryu, IMO, because of his Fierce DP,
which has greater range if needed, and his flying fierce, which had greater
priority than Ryu's.
Ryu has the FB SC, which could be used against Honda if Honda jumps from an
improper range and punish Honda far easier than Ken could.
Also, Ryu had the quicker FB, right? [Er... Can't remember]. This is the
only other advantage I could think of for Ryu over Ken.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Painter | "Time after time, you try to find yourself...
pai...@rohan.sdsu.edu | nagareru toki no naka de. Taenai kizu dakishime
pai...@mail.sdsu.edu | Setsunasa no kaze ni mau...
| X JAPAN - "Dahlia"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey Nevins
: I cannot believe what I'm seeing here. I, personally, don't know ANYONE
: personality or story. As far as _I_ know, people here play their SF
Oh, I do.
Jeff Nevins
jeff...@sfsu.edu
J Chensor
In reply to Chris's declaration that SFA and SFA2 are both crap, I
have to disagree. Okay, only PARTiALLY disagree.
Pure and simple, Alpha 1 sucks big time... ranks at the bottom with
anything like Time Killers. Alpha 1 sucks.
But Alpha 2 is a VAST improvement and Alpha Counters alone spell the
doom of that game. Without those, SFA2 would be a terrific game.
As to compare ST to SFA2? I won't. I won't simply because I have to
say they are both terrific in their own ways but both have their own
flaws. Many people have turned ST into something it wasn't... flawless.
ST has many flaws in its own way. Lack of Trip Guard really was a bad
thing, poor character balance, and lack of options. SFA2's flaws are ACs,
rapid usage of SCs, and brainless and formatless CCs. I recently watched
some tourney tapes of Super Turbo and to tell you the truth, the fights in
SFA2 seem better (don't flame me yet). In ST, there were many instances
of just pure optionlessness (is that a word?). Like Balrog, one of the
world's most poorly designed characters. Repeated charges could win him a
game as fast as repeated elbow strikes from Akira.
I'm not saying SFA2 is better by any means. I could go on and on
about the flaws of SFA2 easily (meter charge too fast, ACs ruin game,
overpowered CCs). But the game has its merits, being highly varietous (18
characters that are all pretty different not counting Shotokan boys).
They eliminated the scrub moves like SFA1 slides. It's a LOT more
skillful and if ACs weren't there, dammit, it'd be one of the best of all
time. I have grown to ReALLY like SFA2 and appreciate it. Flame me if
you want, but SFA2 is a good game.
That's all from this thread in the thread.
--
- J.C.
"What's the sense in arguing when you're all alone?"
- TMBG
_____________________________________________________________________
James Chen AKA "James Chensor"
jche...@ucla.edu
_____________________________________________________________________
J Chensor
I guess its about time I stick my head in here... I haven't kept up
with the group and suddenly, here's this 42 posts thread about VF and SF.
So I'll address a couple of issues I read here that I feel that are worthy
to talk about.
First of all, VF2's popularity dies here in America, IMO, mainly due
to the fact that it provides zero instant gratification. Here in the
West, instant gratification sells, as in the case of MK and KI. Blood,
guts, combos... it's all there. But those are remotely mindless (did I
say remotely? I meant completely) so those of us who want more ended up
playing games like Turbo and SUper and Super Turbo when they came out.
They provided us with VERY high quality competition, LOTS of good mind
games, and strategy unparallelled by any vs. game to that day. It was
terrific.
But you see, SF was the only game at first, so people took the time
to get good at it. So by the time new versions came out with Cammy and
Fei Long and Hawk, who seemingly sucked, some people learned them and got
good at them 'cause they were familiar already. So even though new things
were provided, people were always ready to take up the new challengers and
new moves and even try to find hope for the toned down characters like
Bison in Turbo.
But in the case of VF2, NO ONE here in the West took the time to play
VF1 because, well, it was kinda lame. Limited moves, too confusing, and
no immediate comprehensiveness. So when VF2 came out, people couldn't
play it. It LOOKED terrific, was great to watch, but when you play
something, have no clue as to what you are doing, and the cabinets only
give you 5 out of 50 moves for your character, it's kinda discouraging.
In SF, you already knew you had 12 ground moves and fireball+punch was a
safe bet to get you something extra. In VF2, people who started playing
it couldn't figure out WHAT the hell was going on, and in the end, got
kiiled in 5 seconds because of huge damage and because of Ring OUts.
THEN, playing the CPU was no better. Lau died because he stood there like
a fool. Sarah also played rather poorly. But then Shun got kinda evil
and then Lion would kill everyone at first. So playing the CPU didn't
help you learn anything at all. People just tried their moves with the
blind faith of hoping the CPU would just take the hit. This didn't work,
and thus, we all died.
And needless to say, dying against Shun would mean your game lasted
no longer than 2 minutes. Was that worth fifty cents compared to SF where
just knowing a DP motion could get you past the first 5 CPUs? And when
you played other people, you already had 12 given moves at your disposal
on the ground? In VF2, it took forever to figure out the moves yourself
so that most people didn't bother, just waiting until the Saturn came out
with all the moves listed. There was no instant gratification to VF, it
was just WAY too simplistic in its complicatedness. At the scrubby level,
the game sucks, pure and simple. It's TERRIBLE because ANYONE can win.
And here in the West, 99% of the people were at that level when the game
came out. But at its finest level, VF2 becomes beautiful, but how hard
was it to get there? You are either a scrub, who hits buttons and
actually jumps. Or you are an average player who can hang somewhat with
the experts but still find yourself dying against those same, button
meshing, jumping scrubs. Then there are experts, who kick your butt so
fast you don't even want to play anymore. Get nailed by one knee and you
get punched, Beat Knuckled, and Pounced on and you're dead. Where was the
fun in that?
So VF2 died a quick death because it didn't give the player enough
help: no instant gratification. Nothing promoted people to play it... no
easy to find moves, no fatalities to work for, no simplistic defending
system... nothing. IT was too easy to die in that game so it was a turn
off.
That's just my opinion so far of why VF2 died so badly here in the West.
More to come...
kuroyume
J Chensor (jche...@ucla.edu) wrote:
: In reply to Chris's declaration that SFA and SFA2 are both crap, I
: have to disagree. Okay, only PARTiALLY disagree.
: Pure and simple, Alpha 1 sucks big time... ranks at the bottom with
: anything like Time Killers. Alpha 1 sucks.
Thank you, James. SFA ranks as the worst SF game made, IMO. That other
piece of garbage, SFTM, doesn't even count as a SF game, IMO. It still
might be a toss-up between those two games.
: But Alpha 2 is a VAST improvement and Alpha Counters alone spell the
: doom of that game. Without those, SFA2 would be a terrific game.
That is correct, sir.
: As to compare ST to SFA2? I won't. I won't simply because I have to
: say they are both terrific in their own ways but both have their own
: flaws. Many people have turned ST into something it wasn't... flawless.
: ST has many flaws in its own way. Lack of Trip Guard really was a bad
: thing, poor character balance, and lack of options. SFA2's flaws are ACs,
: rapid usage of SCs, and brainless and formatless CCs. I recently watched
: some tourney tapes of Super Turbo and to tell you the truth, the fights in
: SFA2 seem better (don't flame me yet). In ST, there were many instances
: of just pure optionlessness (is that a word?). Like Balrog, one of the
: world's most poorly designed characters. Repeated charges could win him a
: game as fast as repeated elbow strikes from Akira.
In hindsight, ST may appear to be flawed, because it was missing the Trip
Guard, but during it's time, the good players found ways around this. Let
me point out that it took skill and imagination to develop a playing style
to accomplish this in ST, unlike SFA2, where brainless ACs and CCs accomplish
basically the same thing.
I suppose you can argue that the addition of ACs, adds new depth to the game
in respects of AC-chess games [cancelling an attack with a SC to thwart a
possible AC attempt by your opponent and visa versa], but this exact strategy
seems to dominate the gameplay [at higher levels] and much of the famous SF
gameplay is now extinct and replaced with this AC-guessing game garbage.
I will NEVER, NEVER accept ACs as a good idea. As far as I'm concerned, it
marked the beginning of the end of depth in SF...
: I'm not saying SFA2 is better by any means. I could go on and on
: about the flaws of SFA2 easily (meter charge too fast, ACs ruin game,
: overpowered CCs). But the game has its merits, being highly varietous (18
: characters that are all pretty different not counting Shotokan boys).
: They eliminated the scrub moves like SFA1 slides. It's a LOT more
: skillful and if ACs weren't there, dammit, it'd be one of the best of all
: time. I have grown to ReALLY like SFA2 and appreciate it. Flame me if
: you want, but SFA2 is a good game.
Correct, but SFA2 is still not a good game, IMO. It's only a decent game.
But I will say, it's still better than 95% of the "current" games out there.
There is still too much reward for turtling in the game. I realize that
we'll never get rid of the rewards for turtling in fighting games [Well, I
don't forsee it], but ACs are just the stupidest thing I have ever seen
in a fighting game [Fatalities and Combo Breakers rank a very close second].
And I cannot forget Chain Combos. Ugh...
CCs are not that far behind in their stupidity. These are nearly the only
method of attack that will stop ground based low-fierces, unless you're
using Zangief and his jump down+forward. Yeah, yeah... I'm dragging up
low-fierces again, but after playing quite a bit of Ken recently, I see how
damn simplistic it is to win with a Shotokan character, especially Ken. You
can never jump in at me, unless you have a LV1 to CC through my low-fierce
[Yeah, I know... I should be doing DPs, but these Alpha games produce lazy
tactics within my gameplay]. The argument that is always brought up when
I mention the incredible priority of ground based attacks, is that why am
I/they/anyone jumping at an opponent at the "wrong" times. The fact of the
matter is that with ACs, you don't have to worry a great deal about footsie
games anylonger because you can just AC their ground attacks. Then people
argue, "Well, if you're so preoccupied with ACing any ground attacks, they
cna just walk up and throw you as you wait for the attack." Yes, but no.
Draw a line in the sand. If they cross it, forget about ACing them. Throw
a low-forward to push them back. Yes, kiddies, it's pretty damn easy to
turtle away in SFA2.
The more I play SFA2 and wondering why I ever played SFA1, the more I wish
I had gone from ST straight to VF2...
All, IMO, of course.
Kroq
> First of all, VF2's popularity dies here in America, IMO, mainly due
the VF series back into number 1 as far as popularity. Don't forget, the surveyed population doesn't really care about winning, they like 3D,
they like mindless games (they have a better chance of winning), hence, they like the VF series. The hardcore fighters stuck with the SF
series due to it's more strategic apperance, and possibly just because 3D fighters just aren't too appealing. However, these people are
greatly outnumbered. Talk to McClain about it... but then again he likes Next Gen.
James - I don't like you <g> (or I don't like u2) <g>
sTeve
LittleTheo
In article <jchensor-240...@ts23-2.wla.ts.ucla.edu>,
jche...@ucla.edu (J Chensor) writes:
> I'm not saying SFA2 is better by any means. I could go on and on
>about the flaws of SFA2 easily (meter charge too fast, ACs ruin game,
>overpowered CCs). But the game has its merits, being highly varietous
(18
>characters that are all pretty different not counting Shotokan boys).
>They eliminated the scrub moves like SFA1 slides. It's a LOT more
>skillful and if ACs weren't there, dammit, it'd be one of the best of all
>time. I have grown to ReALLY like SFA2 and appreciate it. Flame me if
>you want, but SFA2 is a good game.
>
> That's all from this thread in the thread.
>
>
Aaahh. I empathize with you all who have to face people who AC their way
out of everything but a paper bag. I am grateful that our SFA2 regulars
have an unwritten rule never to AC except at most once in a match. SFA2
is really entertaining to play when most players are average. Of course
we have the diehard Ryus who do nothing but corner trap tick damage us to
death. I still haven't got the knack of countering out of it. And add to
that the one AC rule, oh well. This setup breeds a better set of players.
As for the VF2 dying sequence...
Besides myself (the only above average player), no one besides scrubs who
come in with their designated sparring buddy will play. Once I get on,
I'm stuck playing against the CPU (which is now downgraded to normal or
difficult) and everyone just scurries away till I leave to get on the TK2
machine. It is really pathetic how the interest for VF2 has declined in
my area. There are no decent challengers at all. Hell I wish they would
go ahead and set the machine to 1 token (12 cents) so people will have the
incentive of playing more to increase their skills.
VF2 died here when the more recent fighters came out and the Saturn
version was put on sale. Sigh. No more human practice till I get my butt
out of here and up there in VF2 land Toronto.
Littl...@aol.com
Noel T.
We need to deaden the pain with a Little Anastasia.
- Y. W.
Moby
kuroyume (pai...@rohan.sdsu.edu) wrote:
: There is still too much reward for turtling in the game. I realize that
: we'll never get rid of the rewards for turtling in fighting games [Well, I
: don't forsee it], but ACs are just the stupidest thing I have ever seen
: in a fighting game....
Sega DID get rid of the reward for turtling in VF2... it's called
the TIME OUT and the RING OUT. This is part of what the short timer is
meant to do (I emphasize partly), and is why the RING OUT is such a
unique element of the game that I love. It takes a different mesh of
skills to avoid being KNOCKED OUT, RUNG OUT and still win when time runs
out, against an expert player.... :)
Mr & Mrs Swillmaster & Son
So here's the $20,000 question:
>
> Will the mouth-watering, eye-popping graphics of VF3 be enough to overcome
> the price/play ratio, which is rumored to be even worse that VF2, and
> furthermore, will Sega wake up and try to foster some sort of tournament
> scene in the West?
>
>
> ---
> Tom Cannon
> ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Sega won't, in all likelihood they will assume VF3 will take care of
itself <re: mouth watering eye-popping graphics> and will let the
players take things wherever they want. The lack of official
sponsorship probably won't kill it but it won't help. I think the huge
rash of tournaments and gatherings in canada et. al. bodes well though,
and player promotion of tournaments will probably start hitting new
levels if VF3 has the same appeal gameplay-wise as VF2, and very real
balance <why enter a tournament if everyone plays pai now because
suddenly she's a hugely overpowered badass *cough cough*?>..
Of course, it WOULD help if the game went down to 75/50 within a couple
of weeks and 50/50 within a month...
J Chensor
In article <4qohjt$k...@gondor.sdsu.edu>, pai...@rohan.sdsu.edu (kuroyume)
wrote:
> In hindsight, ST may appear to be flawed, because it was missing the Trip
> Guard, but during it's time, the good players found ways around this. Let
> me point out that it took skill and imagination to develop a playing style
> to accomplish this in ST, unlike SFA2, where brainless ACs and CCs accomplish
> basically the same thing.
That is true. I'm afraid I never relished in the great Super Turbo
period when it thrived... I got into it a bit later than most (I never had
access it to it before college since my hometown was a KI/MK-town). But
when I did play it, yes, there were a LOT of fine tricks to getting around
the lack of Trip Guard. But then again, this REALLY starts to remind me
of all the ways we've developed in getting around ACs... there is a LOT of
subtlety, skill, and imagination involved and yet we'd all still be better
off had ACs not existed and Trip Guards existed in the appropriate games.
> I suppose you can argue that the addition of ACs, adds new depth to the game
> in respects of AC-chess games [cancelling an attack with a SC to thwart a
> possible AC attempt by your opponent and visa versa], but this exact strategy
> seems to dominate the gameplay [at higher levels] and much of the famous SF
> gameplay is now extinct and replaced with this AC-guessing game garbage.
That's the biggest problems with ACs is that everyone could use it
effectively. I mean, in ST, even though the lack of Trip Guard was a
bitch for some characters, it didn't dominate EVERY fight, mainly ones of
fireball characters vs. non-fireball characters, and that's fine because
it represents that genre of fight. But ACs plague the world in SFA2.
Perhaps if we played more ROlento vs. Birdie, we'd see less ACs, eh? :-)
> I will NEVER, NEVER accept ACs as a good idea. As far as I'm concerned, it
> marked the beginning of the end of depth in SF...
Agreed.
> Correct, but SFA2 is still not a good game, IMO. It's only a decent game.
> But I will say, it's still better than 95% of the "current" games out there.
I'll say it's a great game merely because it has brought back A LOT
OF THE SKILL involved in the earlier games, even MORE skill I'd dare say
(James ducks a bunch of tomatoes thrown at him). I mean, even in ST, we
had easy attack moves like Balrog's Charge. In SFA2, hardly ANY of those
exist as they all need to be used properly and intelligently (except MAYBE
for Sodom's Jitte Rushes...). I mean, Guy is a VERY skill-oriented
character now. So is Rose. Birdie takes GREAt skill to play now (no more
TAHs up the butt). Zang is a lot of skill. Dhalsim takes GREAT skill.
Adon is another skilled character. Gen requires a little TOO much skill.
Etc. It's all back. I'm not saying that ST DIDN'T have skill, Im just
saying that SFA2 brought it BACK to near-ST leels. ACs have killed that,
though. CCs, maybe, but scrubby use of ACs leaves you with nothing but
empty meters so I don't mind them, since only smart usage of them gets you
anywhere.
> There is still too much reward for turtling in the game. I realize that
> we'll never get rid of the rewards for turtling in fighting games [Well, I
> don't forsee it], but ACs are just the stupidest thing I have ever seen
> in a fighting game [Fatalities and Combo Breakers rank a very close second].
> And I cannot forget Chain Combos. Ugh...
Well, no chain combos here in SFA2 (thank god) excpet for Gen and
Guy, but they are exception and acceptable. As for turtling, there really
isn't much different now then before. I mean, couldn't the way Ryu killed
Honda be considered the same thing as a Ryu Low Fiercing everything?
Honda had so much problems avoiding the Low Sweep with Honda in ST that
the RYu who chucked fireballs might have just BEEN turtling. Getting
passed the Low FIerces is about as difficult as getting past those sweeps
upon landing. But there are ways around them, ones that, to me, promote
strategy.
I will still say that Low Fierces require some anticipation. If you
can take away their anticipation, Low Fiercing everything will not be as
easy.
> CCs are not that far behind in their stupidity. These are nearly the only
> method of attack that will stop ground based low-fierces, unless you're
> using Zangief and his jump down+forward.
CCs have yet to bug me greatly. So far, they are only helping me.
:-) People like Adon, Gen, Guy, and Zang need them and that's why they so
far haven't bugged me (guess what!?!? I use Adon, Gen, Guy and
Zangief!!! :-). Plus, they do require some fors or intelligent use. A
lot of people throw them out for no reason and die. A lot of people can't
do effective CCs once they connect them. Anything that scrubs can't take
advantage of doesn't bother me. I see many people do Fierce 15 hit CCs
that do NO damage and I just laugh.
> The argument that is always brought up when
> I mention the incredible priority of ground based attacks, is that why am
> I/they/anyone jumping at an opponent at the "wrong" times. The fact of the
> matter is that with ACs, you don't have to worry a great deal about footsie
> games anylonger because you can just AC their ground attacks. Then people
> argue, "Well, if you're so preoccupied with ACing any ground attacks, they
> cna just walk up and throw you as you wait for the attack." Yes, but no.
> Draw a line in the sand. If they cross it, forget about ACing them. Throw
> a low-forward to push them back. Yes, kiddies, it's pretty damn easy to
> turtle away in SFA2.
Nope. Sorry, but this is the philosophy I use to destroy people with
ground games.
Simply put: you CAN'T AC ground games because of the fact that I
intentionally MISS with a LOT of moves in my ground games. YOu CAN'T AC
everytime the move just happens to make contact. When I'm Zangief, I
never try to touch you with my Standing FOrward. It'll whiff but IF you
stick out a move, it hits. There is THAT PERFECT distance for that. You
turtle, I whiff... no AC worries. You attack, I hit. You CAN'T AC. If
you think about SCing my limbs when they whiff, you stuck on the trigger
happy reaction, and people can kill that. So ground games work terrific.
Adon, Gen, and Guy all concentrate more on missing than hitting in order
to get around ACs. PLUS, people like Guy and Gen have LONG ranged moves
that will make most ACs whiff anyhow so if they do manage to AC moves,
they'll miss. Or of course, do the infamous 2-in-1 trick.
Another thing is that if you try and throw AC happy people, you CAN
implemnt the "as soon as he is in BLAH range, I'll attack instead of try
for an AC." Well, I take advantage of THAT as well. Two ways: walk up
and pretend to throw, sweep in stead. THis works on people too worried
about throws. ANother one? Walk up and YOU block, block their attack,
and AC THEM instead.
This is all very similar to the plights of getting over a fireball
agianst Guile if you're Honda or finding a way to stop a mad Old Balrog
rushing repeeatedly at you if you're Bison. In ST, there were SO MANY
deep and subtle ways around these blatant problems. SFA's got them too.
That's why I like the game. Turtlers don't bug me anymore as much as they
used to because now I just see it as a phase of the game, not a problem.
I could whine about Trip Guarding and stuff, but I won't about ST.
Because ST has elevated itself into SUCH a high plane that getting around
these problems WAS the art of the game. Now, everything aboutr SFA2 that
IS a problem is flame-bait. Why can't we, in the future, talk of SFA2 as
a high art game in trying to get around ACs, Low FIerces, and turtling?
Mr & Mrs Swillmaster & Son
> : > through this with him. Where are ya, James??
>
> : I'll have to do.
>
> little longer. :) :)
>
Boy are YOU gonna get flooded when I get real service back.
The only thing that's worse than a news server/program telling you your
message did not go through: your news server/program consistently LYING
and telling it didn't when it DID goddammit.
> : arranged in a row at the bottom. Blah. I'm going to sound pompous for a
> : bit and point out that I'm a design major, I know some of what I'm
> : talking about, and the design IS bland. It's no-frills bordering on
> : minimalist. The nicest touch to the game over VF1 in terms of
> : miscellaneous artistic touches is the fire behind the character's large
> : portraits on the select screen. The rest is the SAME, if nicer quality
> : and with actual textures.
>
> Maybe the beauty of VF3 will be enough to draw in the crowds who
> think VF2 is too bland (ie. Tom).
>
Yep, I'm actually really looking forward to what they've done with the
misc. stuff, such as endings, and the select screen and win poses.
> : you DO tend to get a little elitist on 'em you know. But that's okay.
> : I dragged out a lot of the elitist crap on james too. But we focused on
> : gameplay most of all.
>
> Me? Really? I really try not to be y'know... I'm not suppressing
> some sort of long-held inner resentment against SF or anything. :)
I imagine not, I wasn't being REALLY REALLY serious anyway.
> : > Where did I indicate that this gave me some sort of "high
> : > ground"? Please, I think you're starting to assume things, which is
> : > dangerous...
>
> : No, you did sound kinda fulla it moby when you were like "well, just
> : compare the demographics of the average VFer with the <implied>>>
> : average snot nosed teenage punk SFer.
> : :) oh wait, moby, did you want me to back you up on this one? :)
>
> Damn damn damn, Creed is can post now..... if only you didn't live in
> Virginia. :) Nice to see you back now though. Oh yeah, screw
> implications, that's what I said to Chensor. :)
>
MUAhaHaAHaaHaaHAaAHAaaHAa. . . You get a copy of everything I say in
email too, just to be a safe bastard.
> : And even then, the people who DO discover and dedicate to the game
> : really do seem to stick with it and turn fanatical, shunning <heh>
> : others fighters more often than not.
> : The game has the appeal and staying power, it just takes a little <okay,
> : a lot> of time and money to let yourself become addicted.
>
> Yeah, and let me put it this way: if I get addicted to VF3 like I
> did for VF2, I will be one very poor puppy.
>
No shit, as it is now, I can go into an arcade with a fiver and be cool
for the whole day. If this sucker really is 75c at ucla <which means
probably a buck elsewhere> then I'm rather fuckt.
> : Sort of, I DO notice more screaming, taunting, and general brattiness go
> : on among SFers than VFers. But Tom Cannon IS definitely an exception to
> : that.
>
> Okay, assumptions aside, would something like... oh... AGE have
> anything to do with that "brattiness"? Tom? Bob? James? :)
>
Not really, I mean, the culprits I saw included the e.u.ming/milo
cooper/james margaris hilarity, and they're all my age or older I'm
pretty sure, around the same age as the average VFer. Actually, I'm
totally assuming, I don't know the ages of the regular VF posters, I
only assume them. But in the SF group, we're not talking about eight
year olds.. we're talking about guys named mike watson who are like
eighteen-24 and TALK like foul-mouthed eight year olds.
> --
> Moby
> Henry Kong (hk...@unixg.ubc.ca)
> Strangers In Paradise|Massive Attack|Invisibles|Sega|Virtua Fighter 2|DKR
> Pee Wee Herman|Melanie Moore|Tricky|Details|King Mob|Salma Hayek| A D Phi
Tamias
jche...@ucla.edu (J Chensor) wrote:
> But at its finest level, VF2 becomes beautiful, but how hard
>was it to get there? You are either a scrub, who hits buttons and
>actually jumps. Or you are an average player who can hang somewhat with
>the experts but still find yourself dying against those same, button
>meshing, jumping scrubs. Then there are experts, who kick your butt so
>fast you don't even want to play anymore. Get nailed by one knee and you
>get punched, Beat Knuckled, and Pounced on and you're dead. Where was the
>fun in that?
> So VF2 died a quick death because it didn't give the player enough
>help: no instant gratification. Nothing promoted people to play it... no
>easy to find moves, no fatalities to work for, no simplistic defending
>system... nothing. IT was too easy to die in that game so it was a turn
>off.
Yeah, it seems the way the game is designed with 30 second time
limits, there is always the potential for quick knockouts due to
heavy-damage combos, ring-outs etc. The interesting thing I find is
that it works both ways... sure you can lose quickly, but once you
actually spend some time on the game, you can do the same to your
opponents-- which makes it all the more fun ;)
~^~^~^~^~
Alvin aka Tamias "Patience is a Virtue"
alv...@jumppoint.com
"Ability is nothing without opportunity"
Lionel Vilner
can set the time to 60 or infinite !
-Lion-
Moby
: Longer time limits and less damage definitely allows for more strategy
: and experimentation. Although, with everyone having dodge moves in
: VF3, hopefully it won't become a game of hit-and-run tactics-- that
: could really slow the game down too much.
This notion of everybody in VF3 having dodge tactics is really
bugging me, for some reason. Although I know that every human being has
the ability to move in the "z" dimension (in other words, we live in a 3D
world), I can imagine how awkward it might be in a fighting game. I won't
even bring up Toshinden 2. Has this idea been CONFIRMED to exist in VF3?
Jirawat? Anybody?
: As it is now, you're pretty
: much forced to attack if you're down on energy and time is running
: out.
Unless, through superior strategy and tactics, you are suddenly
able to ring out your opponent, either through a blocked push or sudden
reverse of position.... ;)
--
Moby
Henry Kong (hk...@unixg.ubc.ca)
Strangers In Paradise|Massive Attack|Invisibles|Sega|Virtua Fighter 2|DKR
Love & Rockets|Melanie Moore|Tricky|Details|King Mob|Salma Hayek| A D Phi
Moby
<jchensor-260...@ts31-10.wla.ts.ucla.edu>:
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Distribution:
J Chensor (jche...@ucla.edu) wrote:
: In article <4qsav4$a...@gondor.sdsu.edu>, pai...@rohan.sdsu.edu (kuroyume)
: wrote:
: > Well, like I've stated before, I'm by no means a VF2 expert, but I've heard
: > from far more knowledgeable people that there are [Taiwanese?] players
: > [I assume on a real high level of play], that just dash back and forth using
: > 'crouch dashes', in an attempt to get their opponent to attack so they can
: > counter, even if it means both players not even attempting an attack the
: > entire round, as they are waiting for the other person to do something.
: > Assuming this is correct information, how can you not call THAT turtling?
: Not quite like that, but it's called "Machi!" (Yeah, I'm using VF
: jargon!!! :-). It's basically playing REALLY safe, using small,
: uncounterables occasionall, just waiting for an opening to defeat your
: enemy. And, damn you CreeD, CreeD is REALLY good at it. :-) If he would
: so politely do so, he could explain it better that I can.
Well, I'll give it a shot before Mr. Swillmaster gets his hands
on it... :)
Bob/Kuroyume, what YOU describe is something called "crouch-dashing",
which is a form of movement in VF2. What Chensor calls "machi"
is a playing style and a mentality; therefore, the two are mutually
exclusive. HOWEVER, people of course can use crouch-dashing within a
machi style, and many people do. But I just want to get across that
crouch-dashers are NOT, by definition, machi players.
Anyways, crouch-dashing in and of itself has NOTHING to do with
turtling. Because you are moving with crouch-dashes, you are immune to
throws, and provided you block, you are also immune to low and high
attacks. What those Taiwanese people told you was something ELSE called
the "Taiwan Step". This is basically g-cancelled crouch-dashing. This
allows complete precision in movement and range, and since the transition
from crouch-block to high-block is extremely fast, good Taiwan Steppers
can block mid-level attacks as well.... thus essentially, a perfect
Taiwan Stepper evades high attacks, blocks low & mid attacks, and are
immune to (high) throws. :)
But almost anybody I've played against who USES the
crouch-dashing style or Taiwan Step are NOT "turtlers", even though by
nature they are more defensive. What they try to do is bait you into
attacking mid-level, which they can either block or evade, giving them
the initiative (and tactical advantage). If you don't give them obvious
opportunities, they will invariably have to take the offensive. For
example, if a Taiwan Stepper successfully baited you into standing still
(not attacking), they'll go for the throw; pure machi players wouldn't.
From my experience, people who play "machi" (turtling) are not advanced
players, and you can usually rely on various things in your arsenal to
beat them, either through a Ring Out or Time Out, if not a Knock Out.
Since by nature they don't attack, a machi player can't interrupt you
when you attempt to push them out; all they can do is block. :) Faced with the
impending doom of a RO, nearly EVERYONE will try to interrupt you, otherwise
they'll lose. This is your opportunity to crush them, if you're good
enough. :) You can also bait them into attacking, as most people will
not pass up obvious opportunities. Of course, not every character in VF2 can
"push", and if this is the case, then you'd probably have to rely on the
Time Out win, which is a legitimate alternative to victory. Thus, all
things considered, a machi style is inherently inferior to a more
balanced style, IMHO.
Of course, this doesn't exclude the possibility of
Taiwan-Stepping machi players, but you can STILL push these people out of
the ring, or go for the Time Out. And with the changes in 2.1, the
effectiveness of machi is reduced (and I expect to see this trend
continue in VF3). Of course, Akira-playing, Taiwan-stepping machi
players should be banned in VF2, but that's a different story. :)
P.S. Incidentally, we have two fairly famous VF2 players who are almost
clinical examples of nearly complete opposing styles. Robertson is an
extremely defensive, excellent Taiwan Stepper who chooses his
opportunities carefully. Joe Shun, on the other hand, is COMPLETELY
offensive and tries to barrage you/push you out of the ring. BOTH are
very effective styles, although people usually have more trouble with one
style than the other. Ain't it great? :)
Andrew Ryan Chang
>In article <16...@lax.lax.pe-nelson.com>, jus...@pe-nelson.com says...
>Anyways the thing I'm hoping for MOST in VF3 is lengthening the clock to
>60 seconds, and cutting the damage by half. The reason? Look at Virtual
>On. You get a friggin 99 seconds, for best of 3!!! That's WAY more worth
>the cash than VF2. I say to compensate (yeah you can play best of 9
>inVF2), is to limit VF3 machines to only best of 3, or best of 5. Most
>will be best of 3 of course.
Having 60 second matches feels really really long to me for VF2.
I would much prefer more rounds to longer rounds.
Everyone starts out equal at the start of the round, and the
strategies can start afresh, starting from the opening move.
followups to rgva
--
Computer Scientists love ed, not just because it comes first
alphabetically, but because it's the standard. Everyone else loves ed
because it's ED!
Kuroyume
: In article <4qs9sm$9...@gondor.sdsu.edu>, pai...@rohan.sdsu.edu (kuroyume)
: wrote:
: I definitely think that Trip Guard, toned down damage, less easy
: attack moves (Balrog charges), and Air blocking (James ducks more tomatoes
: thrown at him) definitely helped SFA2.
There are good and bad points about airblocking, which is why I've always had
mixed feelings about it. Obviously, this is a great addition to assist non-FB
characters in thier battles against the Ryus/Kens of the world. The down side
to this, IMO, is that it pretty much eliminates air-to-air combat/strategies,
which leads to the fat-headed, low-fierces that we all see.
Right now though, it has grown on me in a good way.
: Level 3's are still last minute ditch moves, it would seem to me.
: They do tons of damage, but it's always too risky landing them.
But it's not that difficult to just tag on a LV3 in the middle of a regular
combo, isn't it? Compare SC combos in SFA and ST. I see people doing these
in SFA2 often, even by accident on a good number of occasions. I NEVER saw
anyone execute a SC combo in ST, here or in LA, because of the difficulty...
Well, except for me! :) But, I could only do it with Honda and Ken...
I do think it was a little to difficult in ST, which was a good thing because
SCs in ST were just about equivalent to LV3 SCs in SFA2.
: CCs aren't as bad because they hit MUCH more assuredly, making them a little
: overpowered. I still think they needed to design a smarter system. Put
: in smarter strategies... the more you use a single button, the less damage
: it does. Thus, trying for a CC with every button would profit more.
: SOMETHING like that that would promote smarter, and less one-tracked CCs.
Or maybe just scrap them altogether? :) Actually, I agree with you. If they
can design a smarter system, they'll be a lot more tolerable I suppose.
: Rolling is kinda bad, but not destructive. I think the wake-up game
: dominated SF a little TOO much in ST... I mean, it was, Meaty-Attack,
: Ticks, and Wake-Ups... it occured too often in ST and really weas too
: prominant... many fights were all wake-up games more than ground games.
: Rolls help keep things moving. Also, since you can't even roll after the
: majority of situations in SFA2, they're not that bad. I still don't think
: they should be in there, to be honest, but I can't complain about them.
Well, you can't roll only after a throw, a successful SC, or an AC. I guess
part of my dislike for rolls, is because I love the strategy involved in
crossing people up. [Zangief, T-Hawk, and maybe even Honda could raise
hell with their cross-ups. Depending on the distance you choose when you
start your cross up, you could actually vary which direction your opponent
had to block your cross-up. Of course, your opponent could always attempt
to get off a wake-up and reverse your cross up, but that was extremely risky].
Anyhow, a good player will pretty much jab-roll after every knockdown that
they are capable of doing so, to avoid cross-ups. When playing against Milo,
for example, I rarely get an opportunity to cross him up, because he knows
if he jab-rolls after I knock him down, he already eliminates one of my options
of attacking him. All I can do at this point is to just do a ground attack.
: > Combine the best qualities of each game: The ST engine [minus the above
: > mentioned flaws], add in the appropriate additions of SFA2, bring back
: > all the old characters [Yeah, I know some people wouldn't like this, but
: > I think the nostaliga effect would be incredible], maybe some new graphics
: > and this would be my IDEAL SF3. This would be the SF purist's ultimate
: > dream. Unfortunately, it will only stay a dream...
: Wow... that would be awesome...
Yep. Instead, I have this feeling that we're going to get another version of
SF filled with things worse than ACs and CCs. I hope I'm wrong...
: They need to make them so that there is more reason to do different
: things. I'd hate to say it, but Kilelr Instinct 2 did this beautifully,
: in that using different finishers adds more and more hits to them, so that
: there is reason to do different moves and different finishers. In Alpha
: 2, there should have been some rule that you can only do each special move
: once or something... to promote variety and the imagination to put those
: moves in a smart and effective order. Level 2 will allow you to use each
: special move twice, and LEvel 3 will let you do them three times each.
: Variety is the way to go!
I dunno about that! Then all you sick MSH-combo happy freaks will rule the
game. :)
: I COMPLETELY equate those Low Fierces in SFA2 to the lack of Trip
: Guards in ST. I mean, in ST, you can't jump from far away. In SFA2, you
: can't jump from close up. Only different is that in SFA2, some people
: have moves to beat Low Fierces and there are always CCs. There wasn't a
: WAY around the lack of Trip Guard in ST at ALL if you jumped and they were
: ready (Ryu, Sagat, Guile, etc.).
That's true. Actually, I think we agreed on this a while back.
But, to be honest, low-fierces are overpowering only when a turtle is able to
frustrate you. I really cannot demonstrate the patience I once had back on ST.
I force myself to defeat turtles with offense, which in general, is very
difficult in SFA2. Patience [or turtling back] will generally be your best
against a turtle.
: Yeah. THey should REALLY give players with HIGHER prioritied jumping
: moves.
That too.
: > You do have a good point, though. I suppose, in theory, what I said is
: > possible, but in a real situation, it's a lot more difficult. But don't
: > underestimate some people with amazing reflexes [which I admit, I am far
: > from possessing]. :)
: Those people with awesome reflexes can AC you if they are THAT good,
: but it really puts them in a twitchy situation. You can throw those
: people easier or anyone of those other tricks. I have yet to play someone
: who can idle against whiffs but AC my hits everytime.
I guess you didn't use this strategy against me the last time we played each
other?
: It is DEFINITELY more effective for turtlers... mainly because the
: characters are SO much more skilled to use now... I mean, Ken can be a
: MONSTER if used on offense... but that requires reaction, manual dexterity
: for combos, skill, imagination, and smart play. So why not just kick back
: and turtle, which turns out to be nearly as effective? It's kinda
: pathetic. I think ACs really are the key factor promoting this. If they
: didn't have ACs, what would stop me from doing repeated Elbows to you ALL
: day with Guy? OIr pelting you with fireballs all day with Ryu? It's all
: ACs, man.
I'm not going to add anymore to this. This hit the nail right on the head
and besides, everyone has heard enough complaints about ACs from us. :)
: > : I could whine about Trip Guarding and stuff, but I won't about ST.
: > : Because ST has elevated itself into SUCH a high plane that getting around
: > : these problems WAS the art of the game. Now, everything aboutr SFA2 that
: > : IS a problem is flame-bait. Why can't we, in the future, talk of SFA2 as
: > : a high art game in trying to get around ACs, Low FIerces, and turtling?
: >
: > This would be a nice change of pace, except I have one problem with this...
: > These "brainless" issues shouldn't even be issues, IMO.
: True. There shouldn't have been any of these problems in the game,
: but as I said, ST had the same sorts of problems that seemed rather
: brainless but we all now consider it "skill" to fight against those
: problems.
SFA did correct the problems people were complaing about in ST, but then they
went and threw in ACs and CCs, which everyone seems to find even more
disturbing. Will SF3 finally bring us a "perfect" SF?
--
Bob Painter
pai...@rohan.sdsu.edu
Chris Finnie
jche...@ucla.edu says...
>
> In reply to Chris's declaration that SFA and SFA2 are both crap, I
>have to disagree. Okay, only PARTiALLY disagree.
>
> Pure and simple, Alpha 1 sucks big time... ranks at the bottom
>with
>anything like Time Killers. Alpha 1 sucks.
what I like about it is the lesser role AC's play. Ryu, Ken, Birdie,
Sagat, Adon, Charlie all had shitty AC's that let you play more
offensively.
The problem was the chain combos that allowed scrubs to punish mistakes
without thought, and where they previously could not. Sodom,
Ryu/Ken/Akuma, Charlie, Rose, Guy were the worst offenders naturally.
>
> But Alpha 2 is a VAST improvement and Alpha Counters alone spell
>the
>doom of that game. Without those, SFA2 would be a terrific game.
Uh, yeah... :)
>
> As to compare ST to SFA2? I won't. I won't simply because I have
to
>say they are both terrific in their own ways but both have their own
>flaws. Many people have turned ST into something it wasn't...
>flawless.
>ST has many flaws in its own way. Lack of Trip Guard really was a bad
>thing, poor character balance, and lack of options. SFA2's flaws are
>ACs,
ST had tons of flaws. It just didn't have AC's! Unsoftenable grabs, and
overpowerful and unbalanced supers scrwed it over slightly.
I;ll declare it now- SNES SSF2 (Turbo3) is the best Street Fighter game
of all time.
>rapid usage of SCs, and brainless and formatless CCs. I recently
watched
>some tourney tapes of Super Turbo and to tell you the truth, the fights
in
>SFA2 seem better (don't flame me yet). In ST, there were many
instances
>of just pure optionlessness (is that a word?). Like Balrog, one of the
>world's most poorly designed characters. Repeated charges could win
him a
>game as fast as repeated elbow strikes from Akira.
Balrog shouldn't mindlessly charge. Hopefully Dave F will come and show
a real Balrog in action. He says he will even use ORIGINAL Balrog just
to prove he's the best. TO quote him:
"Balrog's super in ST is stupid, it takes the skill out of using him.
Same with his moving upfierce, it takes all the skill out of jumping
straight up over FB's. I'll use O.Balrog to prve my Balrog is the best
anywhere."
> I'm not saying SFA2 is better by any means. I could go on and on
>about the flaws of SFA2 easily (meter charge too fast, ACs ruin game,
>overpowered CCs). But the game has its merits, being highly varietous
(18
>characters that are all pretty different not counting Shotokan boys).
>They eliminated the scrub moves like SFA1 slides. It's a LOT more
>skillful and if ACs weren't there, dammit, it'd be one of the best of
all
>time. I have grown to ReALLY like SFA2 and appreciate it. Flame me if
>you want, but SFA2 is a good game.
>
> That's all from this thread in the thread.
If AC's were not there, I would say that SFA2 would ALMOST be close
to rivalling Super Turbo, but still WAY off. The SC's are actually
handled BETTER in SFA2 than in ST. But in the end, SFA and SFA2 are crap
because on ONE THING:
NOT ENOUGH THROW RANGE.
chris
Chocobo
> ST had tons of flaws. It just didn't have AC's! Unsoftenable grabs, and
> overpowerful and unbalanced supers scrwed it over slightly.
>
> I'll declare it now- SNES SSF2 (Turbo3) is the best Street Fighter game
> of all time.
What the hell?!? I can't believe you said that! I completely agree!! SSF2
was great, but too slow. The SNES fixed that, and you always had a
perfect controller in the SNES pad.
Mark Zedaker
pai...@rohan.sdsu.edu (Kuroyume) writes:
> SFA did correct the problems people were complaing about in ST, but then they
> went and threw in ACs and CCs, which everyone seems to find even more
> disturbing. Will SF3 finally bring us a "perfect" SF?
Will SF3 be perfect? Hmm.. nah. Looking in my crystal ball
(didn't know I had one, did you? Well... quartz. Actually, it's a
quartz watch. Ahem.), I predict the following problems:
Number 1: Ryu and Ken will STILL be used by 9/10ths of people playing
the game (and steadfastly avoided by everyone with a shred of decency),
even if they were weakened to a Dan-like state. No way around it,
really.
Number 2: The character balance will be pretty crappy; not bad enough
to ruin a good engine, but bad enough that one character will dominate.
I further predict that this character will be pointed out to Capcom
early on in beta, but nothing will be done about it.
Number 3: Airblocking will either be left in, or taken out. Either
way, lots of people will complain.
So, how am I doing so far?
o--------------------------------o-----------------------------------o
|Mark Zedaker |IRC: Tux_Mlvn |
|ak...@powergrid.electriciti.com |http://www.electriciti.com/~akuma/ |
o--------------------------------o-----------------------------------o
| Message... sending...ACTIVATION! |
o--------------------------------------------------------------------o
| SFA2 code: t+(++) c T -> T+ r f g m? -s+ v+ M+(M) n++:+ o+ |
o--------------------------------------------------------------------o
Kuroyume
: In article <4qv4fg$f...@gondor.sdsu.edu>
: Will SF3 be perfect? Hmm.. nah. Looking in my crystal ball
: (didn't know I had one, did you? Well... quartz. Actually, it's a
: quartz watch. Ahem.), I predict the following problems:
: Number 1: Ryu and Ken will STILL be used by 9/10ths of people playing
: the game (and steadfastly avoided by everyone with a shred of decency),
: even if they were weakened to a Dan-like state. No way around it,
: really.
I disagree. If Ryu/Ken were reduced to a Dan-like state, then there would
be far less Ryu/Ken players and probably far less SF players.
The simple solution would be to totally screw up Ryu/Ken's FB. Double the
recovery time of the FB, or change their DP to a SFA2 Dan's DP. Within a
week, we sould see as many Ryu/Ken players as we now see Dan players.
A suicidal move for Capcom. It will never happen.
Ryu and Ken will always be there.
: Number 2: The character balance will be pretty crappy; not bad enough
: to ruin a good engine, but bad enough that one character will dominate.
: I further predict that this character will be pointed out to Capcom
: early on in beta, but nothing will be done about it.
Actually, IMO, the character balance in SFA2, seems to be pretty good, but
far from perfect. Ken/Ryu/Akuma/Chun-Li are all to easy to win with when
used by Chocobos [read: scrub], and when used by someone who knows what they
are doing, this is where the character balance becomes a real problem.
Dan/Gen/Sakura players seem to need a grove full of four-leaf-clovers to pull
of victories against players with equal ability. The remaining characters,
though, seem to be relatively on the same level.
: Number 3: Airblocking will either be left in, or taken out. Either
: way, lots of people will complain.
It seemed like airblocking drew far more praise than criticizms. I was
divided on this issue at the beginning, but I probably would be more pleased
if they left it in, rather than take it out.
Of course, we all know what needs to be removed.
--
Bob Painter
pai...@rohan.sdsu.edu
J Chensor
(Chris Finnie) wrote:
> > Pure and simple, Alpha 1 sucks big time... ranks at the bottom with
> >anything like Time Killers. Alpha 1 sucks.
>
> what I like about it is the lesser role AC's play. Ryu, Ken, Birdie,
> Sagat, Adon, Charlie all had shitty AC's that let you play more
> offensively.
True... and even characters like Guy, Akuma, Dan, and Chun Li had
TERRIBLE anti-air ACs. Only Sodom, Bison, and Rose had really good ACs.
> The problem was the chain combos that allowed scrubs to punish mistakes
> without thought, and where they previously could not. Sodom,
> Ryu/Ken/Akuma, Charlie, Rose, Guy were the worst offenders naturally.
The elimination of Chain Combos already made SFA2 a thousand times
better. I never knew how bad Chain COmbos were until the first time I
played SFA2. I knew they sucked, but after playing SFA2 and feeling how
Chain Combo-less play was like agian, I discovered that Chain Combos are
worse than ACs just about!
> > But Alpha 2 is a VAST improvement and Alpha Counters alone spell the
> >doom of that game. Without those, SFA2 would be a terrific game.
>
> Uh, yeah... :)
Well, IMO of course. To me, the game has more options and has more
skill characters than ST did (although ST had it's fair share). ST didn't
have ENOUGH Cammys and Fei Longs to suit a person who likes challenges
like me. :-) I like characters designed to have good attacks, but now
WORTHLESS attacks (Blanka is an example of worthless attacks). I'm
starting to really not like moves like Balrog's charge, which are too easy
to land and have zero recovery at ANY distance. Moves like Guy's Elbow
are moves I'm starting to like.
> ST had tons of flaws. It just didn't have AC's! Unsoftenable grabs, and
> overpowerful and unbalanced supers scrwed it over slightly.
Heh... absolutely true. All of ST's flaws combined won't be worse
than ACs... nor Chain Combos, for that matter!
> I;ll declare it now- SNES SSF2 (Turbo3) is the best Street Fighter game
> of all time.
I DO like that game a lot, come to think of it. Balrog is a bit too
much, in that game, but otherwise, it probably is one of the best versions
there is. I think if ST had no SCs and Vega was a little toned down, it
would be the best.
> Balrog shouldn't mindlessly charge.
No one should. The point is that he CAN do that and he CAN win that
way, which is bad. If average person played average person, a repeatedly
charging Balrog would win everytime. And that's bad. There shouldn't
EVER be a character like that.
> Hopefully Dave F will come and show
> a real Balrog in action. He says he will even use ORIGINAL Balrog just
> to prove he's the best. TO quote him:
>
> "Balrog's super in ST is stupid, it takes the skill out of using him.
> Same with his moving upfierce, it takes all the skill out of jumping
> straight up over FB's. I'll use O.Balrog to prve my Balrog is the best
> anywhere."
I already believe him. It's just that I don't like Balrog's design.
And incidentally, wouldn't Old Balrog be a bit better in the end because
one charge stops all? No mroe choosing between low charge and high
charge?
> If AC's were not there, I would say that SFA2 would ALMOST be close
> to rivalling Super Turbo, but still WAY off. The SC's are actually
> handled BETTER in SFA2 than in ST. But in the end, SFA and SFA2 are crap
> because on ONE THING:
>
> NOT ENOUGH THROW RANGE.
I can't complain about this. I think throwing was a bit TOO easy in
SFA2. When Bob visited UCLA a while ago and we played ST, I found myself
throwing him and found him throwing ME from TREMENDOUS ranges, ranges I
was not used to anymore. Remembering you could throw from that far
actually didn't see too appealing to me. No, throws can degerate games
into tick fests EASILY in ST, making them as about as much fun to watch as
people sitting there trying to AC everything. The shorter throw ranges
work fine to me. That prevents SFA2 from becoming tick fests and allows
throws to be used in SMART places and still be useful and effective, which
is what an option should be. There should never be anything that useful
and throws in ST were VERY useful. It's dumb to me how a Dhalsim can tick
someone forever to death in the corner if the enemy just fails to counter
throw. Is that REALLY mroe skill? I'm probably a minority on this one,
but I like shorter throw ranges NOW. I used to not, but now I do.
> chris
J Chensor
wrote:
> There are good and bad points about airblocking, which is why I've always had
> mixed feelings about it. Obviously, this is a great addition to assist non-FB
> characters in thier battles against the Ryus/Kens of the world. The down side
> to this, IMO, is that it pretty much eliminates air-to-air combat/strategies,
> which leads to the fat-headed, low-fierces that we all see.
>
> Right now though, it has grown on me in a good way.
The people's insistence that jumping straight up over fireballs
"takes skill" is true, but the wrong way to think. This is another
example of how flaws in the game are over-looked with the "that's just
skill" excuse. CLEARLY, there is a problem when half the characters have
fireballs and some characters exist at the same time who can't jump
straight up over them easily. Fine, okay, it takes timing and skill to
jump straight up over them and stuff... sure. But consider the exact
opposite? How is it that average Ryus or worse CAN beat expert Hondas
(not you, Bob... you're above that in the "Elitest Honda" category :-)
with relative ease? Because it take little or NO skill to implement a
fireball trap. Switchbetween Jab and Fierce fireballs occasionally, and
follow fireballs and trip Honda when he lands. I've seen it a thousand
times and to me, it requires NO skill to do that. So why make Honda have
to suffer with trying to jump straight up over fireballs? WHy FORCE Honda
to exert such skill agianst a tactic that requires NO skill? It's not
fair at all. Thus, I can't accept the "jumping over fireballs takes
skill" excuse because it's a poor excuse.
Of course, this could also all have been fixed with the
implementation of Trip Guard...
The only problem with Air Blocking is the air-to-air game... in a
sense. First off, it's too safe to jump straight up in this game. This
is because if smeone jumps at you, you can just air block it. This is bad
and promotes lack of action. HOWEVER< in ST, I do remember very vividly
that RYu could jump kick (what I call "Scoop Kick" almost EVERYONE out of
the air in that game after following up a Jab Fireball. There were magic
distances where RYu can jump with an immediate Roundhosue and characters
like Honda, BLanka, Balrog, Zangief, Fei Long, and others had NO chance of
beating it... no matter which move they used or how early they used it.
Thus, you were absolutely helpless if you jumped. Air Blocknig has
allowed some safety in jumping.
But they needed to implement more options. The air-to-air game is
too simple. Attack or block. That's it. There needed to be more. Air
throws would definitely help (and maybe give people like Zangief Air THrow
SPDs) and prevent idle jumping. Then, maybe implement ACs ONLY for
jumping attacks so that if you block an air attack, you can AC them,
interrupting your block with an attack a la Darkstalkers but having it
require a whole level (is it worth using a whole level for a wimpy Jump
Kick? You decide). Maybe then, you'll have more variety in the jumping.
Then, there would be mind games in jumping (should I Air AC him? Or will
he air throw me? So should I attack, or will he just Air AC me?). Stuff
like that.
> But it's not that difficult to just tag on a LV3 in the middle of a regular
> combo, isn't it? Compare SC combos in SFA and ST. I see people doing these
> in SFA2 often, even by accident on a good number of occasions. I NEVER saw
> anyone execute a SC combo in ST, here or in LA, because of the difficulty...
> Well, except for me! :) But, I could only do it with Honda and Ken...
That's true... it's still too easy to combo a Level 3... they should
alter it so that Level 1's are bufferable, being their only use. Level
2's should be nice damaing and quick moves, good for countering. Level
3's should be powerful, and do a lot of damage, as they do now. However,
Levels 2 and 3 shouldn't be bufferable. That way, they all have their own
purposes, Level 1 being for combos only.
> I do think it was a little to difficult in ST, which was a good thing because
> SCs in ST were just about equivalent to LV3 SCs in SFA2.
No kidding! A four-hit DeeJay SC killed you if you had half energy
left! It was too much! :-)
> Or maybe just scrap them altogether? :) Actually, I agree with you. If they
> can design a smarter system, they'll be a lot more tolerable I suppose.
Scrapping them would be all right, but I've grown to like these as
well. They're the perfect anti-throw move, something that should've been
there before (but not NEARLY as powerful). Sac-throws
(take-the-hit-and-throw is what I used to call them) have always been
popular and never before has there been such an effective weapon against
them... If CC's were WAY more limited, I'd like them... but as they are
now, they hurt WAY too much.
> Well, you can't roll only after a throw, a successful SC, or an AC. I guess
> part of my dislike for rolls, is because I love the strategy involved in
> crossing people up. [Zangief, T-Hawk, and maybe even Honda could raise
> hell with their cross-ups. Depending on the distance you choose when you
> start your cross up, you could actually vary which direction your opponent
> had to block your cross-up. Of course, your opponent could always attempt
> to get off a wake-up and reverse your cross up, but that was extremely risky].
> Anyhow, a good player will pretty much jab-roll after every knockdown that
> they are capable of doing so, to avoid cross-ups. When playing against Milo,
> for example, I rarely get an opportunity to cross him up, because he knows
> if he jab-rolls after I knock him down, he eliminates one of my options
> of attacking him. All I can do at this point is to just do a ground attack.
This is good AND bad. Cross overs are fine, but I dislike the
wishy-washy cross-ups... ones that ST thrived with... where SOMETIMES you
blocked it going forward, SOMETIMES you blocked it going backwards. If
all cross ups were certain and consistent, like a Body Splash from Zang or
something, they wouldn't bug me. I've seen too many fights won because
someone tried to block a cross-up, did not do it successfully, got
comboed, dizzied, and killed. That's another lack of skill thing... all
you knew was two combos and won merely because the guy couldn't block the
right way because the game is inconsistent about those.
My dream way would be: no rolls, easier to block cross-ups.
> Yep. Instead, I have this feeling that we're going to get another version of
> SF filled with things worse than ACs and CCs. I hope I'm wrong...
So far, NO 3-D games have had any of these wacky, excess graphics,
extra option stuff... no meters, no guard cancels, etc. Will SF3 be the
first? God, I hope not! :-)
> I dunno about that! Then all you sick MSH-combo happy freaks will rule the
> game. :)
Sounds good to me. :-)
> But, to be honest, low-fierces are overpowering only when a turtle is able to
> frustrate you. I really cannot demonstrate the patience I once had back on ST.
> I force myself to defeat turtles with offense, which in general, is very
> difficult in SFA2. Patience [or turtling back] will generally be your best
> against a turtle.
True in some sense...it depends on who you use. If you're Guy,
people canNOT turtle against you... Guy can thrash turtlers too
effectively... it's always better to be attacking Guy. Zangief can smash
turtlers too because he can afford to take a few htis and then land an SPD
SC because he'll be in the lead anyhow. It's people like GEN and ADON and
SODOM who weren't given effective ways around ACs that have the hard
time. If Sodom had his Power Bomb range back, Gen had a fireball (c'mon,
he's supposed to be one of the "greatest" fighters ever and he doesn't
have a FIREBALL?), and Adon had an off the wall throw like Vega, then
they'd be cool.
> : Those people with awesome reflexes can AC you if they are THAT good,
> : but it really puts them in a twitchy situation. You can throw those
> : people easier or anyone of those other tricks. I have yet to play someone
> : who can idle against whiffs but AC my hits everytime.
>
> I guess you didn't use this strategy against me the last time we played each
> other?
Throwing people ready to AC? I have trouble throwing people PERIOD.
I SUCK with throws, using them or countering them. I feel guilty about
throwing (this comes after years of playing people who hate throws) and
I'm never thinking about them so I get thrown a lot. Only recently have i
started going to throws more and avoiding them better.
But I know this throwingtactic works because one of my schoolmates
(the guy who won 2nd place at the Golfland tourney) is an EXCELLENT
thrower. He throws people ALL the time when they are trying for ACs and
stuff. I try to learn what he does, but cannot duplicate it.
> I'm not going to add anymore to this. This hit the nail right on the head
> and besides, everyone has heard enough complaints about ACs from us. :)
Agreed. No more AC-stuff...
> SFA did correct the problems people were complaing about in ST, but then they
> went and threw in ACs and CCs, which everyone seems to find even more
> disturbing. Will SF3 finally bring us a "perfect" SF?
I accept EVERYTHING in SFA2 EXCEPT ACs. I will NEVER accept that
piece of shit idea. But CCs are fine by me and rolls are okay and
airblocking is good... so as I said, if SFA2 didn't have ACs, I would've
LOVED the game to high heaven. ST would still be better, but SFA2 would
be awesome.
Omega MAD
<sfi...@intergate.bc.ca> writes
>
>If AC's were not there, I would say that SFA2 would ALMOST be close
>to rivalling Super Turbo, but still WAY off. The SC's are actually
>handled BETTER in SFA2 than in ST. But in the end, SFA and SFA2 are crap
>because on ONE THING:
>
>NOT ENOUGH THROW RANGE.
>
>
Damn I forgot about that (wave of nostalgia hits home) the grab range in
the SF2's was just right and reliable in the SFA's you can often think
your in range for a grab go for it and end up just doing a shit fierce
or strong that gets blocked and countered (poxy AC's) I really hate
M.Bison's fierce punch really reakes when you meant to do a throw
instead.
--
Omega MAD
----------------------------------------
"You cannot fight destiny,
The world will be mine!"
-M.Bison
----------------------------------------
Chris Finnie
omeg...@mbison.demon.co.uk says...
>
>In article <4qv90u$1...@carrera.intergate.bc.ca>, Chris Finnie
><sfi...@intergate.bc.ca> writes
>>
>>If AC's were not there, I would say that SFA2 would ALMOST be close
>>to rivalling Super Turbo, but still WAY off. The SC's are actually
>>handled BETTER in SFA2 than in ST. But in the end, SFA and SFA2 are
crap
>>because on ONE THING:
>>
>>NOT ENOUGH THROW RANGE.
>>
>>chris
>>
>
>Damn I forgot about that (wave of nostalgia hits home) the grab range
in
>the SF2's was just right and reliable in the SFA's you can often think
>your in range for a grab go for it and end up just doing a shit fierce
>or strong that gets blocked and countered (poxy AC's) I really hate
>M.Bison's fierce punch really reakes when you meant to do a throw
>instead.
You mean you like throws? Argh, maybe I misunderstood you the last time.
Sorry 'bout that unkindly message about you not liking throws I giess.
chris
Chris Finnie
omeg...@mbison.demon.co.uk says...
>True enough the only thing that wasn't 100% with the game was the SFX
>when you hit your opponent all the same quies piff sort of noise, thats
>the only thing that i didn't like about it really
Well the other differences were that Balrog was stronger (his stand
fierce hit low blockers) and Sagat was weaker (longer low tiger
recovery), but this was good because it takes skill to use the SNES
Sagat, and he is still a good character.
Also, the playing area was much much larger, meaning it took longer to
corner an opponent and Dhalsim can do more cool things with his
teleport. And with the fast speed, and no supers to corrupt the game, I
say it's the best SF game ever.
ST had good balance features like Honda's moving hands/upfierce,
Blanka's hop, but for the most part I prefer the SSF2 characters.
chris
Omega MAD
<cho...@concentric.net> writes
>Chris Finnie wrote:
>
>> ST had tons of flaws. It just didn't have AC's! Unsoftenable grabs, and
>> overpowerful and unbalanced supers scrwed it over slightly.
>>
>> of all time.
>
>was great, but too slow. The SNES fixed that, and you always had a
>perfect controller in the SNES pad.
True enough the only thing that wasn't 100% with the game was the SFX
when you hit your opponent all the same quies piff sort of noise, thats
the only thing that i didn't like about it really
--
Brandon Walker
<omeg...@mbison.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <31D3B4...@concentric.net>, Chocobo
> <cho...@concentric.net> writes
> >Chris Finnie wrote:
> >
> >> ST had tons of flaws. It just didn't have AC's! Unsoftenable grabs, and
> >> overpowerful and unbalanced supers scrwed it over slightly.
> >>
> >> I'll declare it now- SNES SSF2 (Turbo3) is the best Street Fighter game
> >> of all time.
> >
> >What the hell?!? I can't believe you said that! I completely agree!! SSF2
> >was great, but too slow. The SNES fixed that, and you always had a
> >perfect controller in the SNES pad.
>
> True enough the only thing that wasn't 100% with the game was the SFX
> when you hit your opponent all the same quies piff sort of noise, thats
> the only thing that i didn't like about it really
Hmmmm... In my opinion the SNES pad is a little tight for SF2 in any form.
If the SNES has a rocker pad instead of the cross and a 6-button layout
instead of the 4-button with L & R it would be perfect. I've got the
PC-Engine version of SFII' CE and the control with the NEC Avenue Pad 6
(great 6-button controller with rocker pad) is the best I've ever seen
short of the arcade.
I also have to say that my favorite SF is SF Alpha. Mainly because of the
great animation, improved character graphics (I LOVE the new anime style
drawings), crisp sound FX, and the most forgiving and perfect gameplay
around.
Rocco Goldenberg
>
>Mark Zedaker (ak...@powergrid.electriciti.com) wrote:
>: In article <4qv4fg$f...@gondor.sdsu.edu>
>
>: Will SF3 be perfect? Hmm.. nah. Looking in my crystal ball
>: (didn't know I had one, did you? Well... quartz. Actually, it's a
>: quartz watch. Ahem.), I predict the following problems:
>
>: Number 1: Ryu and Ken will STILL be used by 9/10ths of people playing
>: the game (and steadfastly avoided by everyone with a shred of decency),
>: even if they were weakened to a Dan-like state. No way around it,
>: really.
>
>I disagree. If Ryu/Ken were reduced to a Dan-like state, then there would
>be far less Ryu/Ken players and probably far less SF players.
>
>The simple solution would be to totally screw up Ryu/Ken's FB. Double the
>recovery time of the FB, or change their DP to a SFA2 Dan's DP. Within a
>week, we sould see as many Ryu/Ken players as we now see Dan players.
>A suicidal move for Capcom. It will never happen.
Hehe... then I'd be a supreme Ryu/Ken Master already... :)
>
>Ryu and Ken will always be there.
>
>
>: Number 2: The character balance will be pretty crappy; not bad enough
>: to ruin a good engine, but bad enough that one character will dominate.
>: I further predict that this character will be pointed out to Capcom
>: early on in beta, but nothing will be done about it.
>
>Actually, IMO, the character balance in SFA2, seems to be pretty good, but
>far from perfect. Ken/Ryu/Akuma/Chun-Li are all to easy to win with when
>used by Chocobos [read: scrub], and when used by someone who knows what they
>are doing, this is where the character balance becomes a real problem.
>
>Dan/Gen/Sakura players seem to need a grove full of four-leaf-clovers to pull
>of victories against players with equal ability. The remaining characters,
>though, seem to be relatively on the same level.
I'd agree, but hey, in my arcade, I've put the fear of Dan into so many Ryu/Ken
players, it's hysterical.
>
>
>: Number 3: Airblocking will either be left in, or taken out.
Either
>: way, lots of people will complain.
>
>It seemed like airblocking drew far more praise than criticizms. I
was
>divided on this issue at the beginning, but I probably would be more
pleased
>if they left it in, rather than take it out.
>
>Of course, we all know what needs to be removed.
>
>
>--
>Bob Painter
>pai...@rohan.sdsu.edu
>
- Hunter
hun...@ecom.net
LittleTheo
cus...@ix.netcom.com(Rocco Goldenberg ) writes:
>>Dan/Gen/Sakura players seem to need a grove full of four-leaf-clovers to
>pull
>>of victories against players with equal ability. The remaining
characters,
>>though, seem to be relatively on the same level.
>
LOL!!!
>I'd agree, but hey, in my arcade, I've put the fear of Dan into so many
>Ryu/Ken
>players, it's hysterical.
>
>>
I agree. I've done the same at my arcade with Sakura and Sodom.
If you can't catch them in the air with a rushing uppercut? Farmer plow
into them with a jumping forward.
Littl...@aol.com
Noel T.
One look at me and all people want is conversation...
A.B.
Milo D. Cooper
>
> The people's insistence that jumping straight up over fireballs
> "takes skill" is true, but the wrong way to think. This is another
> example of how flaws in the game are over-looked with the "that's just
> skill" excuse. CLEARLY, there is a problem when half the characters have
> fireballs and some characters exist at the same time who can't jump
> straight up over them easily. Fine, okay, it takes timing and skill to
> jump straight up over them and stuff... sure. But consider the exact
> opposite? How is it that average Ryus or worse CAN beat expert Hondas
> (not you, Bob... you're above that in the "Elitest Honda" category :-)
> with relative ease? Because it take little or NO skill to implement a
> fireball trap. Switchbetween Jab and Fierce fireballs occasionally, and
> follow fireballs and trip Honda when he lands. I've seen it a thousand
> times and to me, it requires NO skill to do that. So why make Honda have
> to suffer with trying to jump straight up over fireballs? WHy FORCE Honda
> to exert such skill agianst a tactic that requires NO skill? It's not
> fair at all. Thus, I can't accept the "jumping over fireballs takes
> skill" excuse because it's a poor excuse.
> Of course, this could also all have been fixed with the
> implementation of Trip Guard...
James, I don't think that Capcom have *ever* been interested in
making Street Fighter balanced. It would only make sense for them to
adopt that objective if the personalities of Street Fighter players in
general were all alike. I give Capcom more credit than to believe that
their fighting games are imbalanced because they weren't sufficiently
play-tested (as one reason among several others). Given the mentality
of video game aficionados, it makes sense that Street Fighter would be
imbalanced *intentionally*. It's just practical business. Capcom have
designed their games brilliantly: they appease scrubs and experts si-
multaneously (regardless of the fervor of the latter's complaints) by
creating (1) simple and well-rounded characters which appeal to the
vulgar, lobotomized majority, and (2) characters who beat the most pop-
ular ones only upon their extensive study and use. Obviously, this
second set of characters will appeal to the more intellectual player,
who requires depth of the game engine for his mental stimulation. Cap-
com know that a high-level player won't stand for defeat at the hands
of a character who generally requires little mental exertion, so they
provide more intellectual players with a variety of characters that do
offer the reward of beating Ryus and Kens and Akumas -- but only in
the long-term process of intellectual scrutiny of the game. Dhalsim,
Vega, Balrog, Birdie, Rose, Sodom, and even Cammy can *destroy* the
shotokans, but *only* at levels of experience *greater* than that of
the average Ryu player, and Capcom know that, in the process of attain-
ing such mastery with a more demanding character, a player will have
invested plenty of cash in the game. And as we all know, the money is
the bottom line.
Hence, ground-based attacks, alpha-counters, custom combos, and
significant character imbalances that were left intact after the test
versions of the games. Capcom made an eminently intelligent decision
in dumbing-down Street Fighter with the Alpha series. They already had
the devotion of the more intelligent players; they introduced play mech-
anisms which very much appeal to scrubs, with the knowledge that most
high-level devotees will, consciously or unconsciously, accept overcom-
ing these mechanisms as a new intellectual challenge. I respect the com-
pany's designers all the more.
--
/|_____Milo D. Cooper_____|\
\| mdco...@ix.netcom.com |/
Black Dragon
I'd say keep air blocking in. Some characters, like Birdie, Zangief
and Sodom, really need that air block to get close to their
opponents. Without the air blocking, IMHO these characters wouldn't
stand a chance of winning against FB characters.
--
You were ALMOST entertaining.
Chocobo
Milo D. Cooper wrote:
>
> J Chensor wrote:
> >
> > The people's insistence that jumping straight up over fireballs
> > "takes skill" is true, but the wrong way to think. This is another
> > example of how flaws in the game are over-looked with the "that's just
> > skill" excuse. CLEARLY, there is a problem when half the characters have
> > fireballs and some characters exist at the same time who can't jump
> > straight up over them easily. Fine, okay, it takes timing and skill to
> > jump straight up over them and stuff... sure. But consider the exact
> > opposite? How is it that average Ryus or worse CAN beat expert Hondas
> > (not you, Bob... you're above that in the "Elitest Honda" category :-)
> > with relative ease? Because it take little or NO skill to implement a
> > fireball trap.
> James, I don't think that Capcom have *ever* been interested in
> making Street Fighter balanced.
I agree. If all the characters were equal (like MK), who would you use if
you wanted a challenge against players who aren't as good as you? With no
Dan to embarrass people with, it takes some of the fun out of the game.
Scott Douglas Thompson
Milo D. Cooper wrote:
> James, I don't think that Capcom have *ever* been interested in
Sorry about the long quote, but I though it was all relevant.
That's what I get for thinking, I suppose...
Just like to say it's a good point you make, Milo. I never
really looked at it this way. J makes some good points, too, but you're
right.
Simple characters allow the SF-impared to play and enjoy the
game. More advanced ones intrigue vetrans and experts, who seem to
naturally find them more fun to play, anyway. And at the same time this
asures that scrubs and masters can meet on more even terms, and still
enjoy (?) a game together.
Comments?
Excuse me while I throw a bunch of blank lines here to offset the
big quote so that my server'll post the message. Sorry, folks. :-(
--
- Scott
-----------------------------------------------
"I'm Huge."
- Crow T. Robot.
"If you're like me, and I know I am..."
- Joel Robinson/Hodgeson
"Oh, come ON..."
- Tom Servo.
HAIL TO THE MASTERS!!!
-----------------------------------------------
J Chensor
In article <31D5AD...@ix.netcom.com>, "Milo D. Cooper"
<mdco...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> James, I don't think that Capcom have *ever* been interested in
> making Street Fighter balanced.
[Long post snipped]
> /|_____Milo D. Cooper_____|\
> \| mdco...@ix.netcom.com |/
You know what, Milo? This sounds too incredibly logical and real to
debate. My friend had joked about that before when I was so frustrated to
see Blanka raped in Super and Super Turbo after being so powerful in
Hyper. "Why do they always have these guys who just SUCK?" I asked
angrily. My firend replied, "So they have someone to make bettter in the
new version." And then the idea that Capcom was doing this on purpose
always littered my thoughts. No one was THAT brain-dead to create
characters like Blanka in Super Turbo or Gen in SFA2 that are that
obviously worse... and have characters like Chun in SFA2 which are that
scrubby to use. And they way you put it, the way you wrote it up sounds
too logical.
In almost a sense, I have to THANK Capcom now for their job. I LOVE
using Gen, now Dan, Guy, Zangief, and the underdogs. If there were all
balanced characters, where would my fun go? I LOVED using CHun in SFA1
but now abhor using her and she doesn't feel right to me anymore... mainly
because she's popular and too effective. So now I'm starting to REALLY
believe they do it totally intentionally to give masochists like me more
fun in the game. Well, then, I from hence forward will never complain
about character balance anymore because lack of character balance seems to
be where all my fun is coming from. :-)
So I will continue to use Gen like George Ngo does, Dan like James
Romedy does, Guy like, well, like _I_ do, Zangief like I do, and try to
imitate an Adon like yours merely from word of mouth and what I've heard.
I love the underdogs and here's to Capcom for providing them for me!
Chris Finnie
cho...@concentric.net said...
>
>Chris Finnie wrote:
>> I'll declare it now- SNES SSF2 (Turbo3) is the best Street Fighter
>>game
>> of all time.
>
>What the hell?!? I can't believe you said that! I completely agree!!
Awesome! We agree on something.
>SSF2
>was great, but too slow.
No question.
>The SNES fixed that, and you always had a
>perfect controller in the SNES pad.
The control pad worked fine, but I actually went out of my way to get
arcade controllers for the SNES SSF2. The only problems with the game
are minimal:
1.) Balrog is too powerful, because his stand fierce hits low blockers.
In the arcade I beleive this only worked on certain characters like
Dhalsim, but in SNES it works on everyone. The reason this was so
powerful is that it was a no skill followup to the dash punch, and it
actually HIT all sweeps or low attacks coming out (it did not do this in
the arcade). You can also hit a missed sweep wothout being charged. The
solution to this is just simply not to use it for anything other than
trading/stuffing fireballs.
2.) The playing area was HUGE. This isn't actually a flaw, it's only a
difference. Oh, and Sagat wasn't as overpowering; his low tigers had
poor recovery, so you have to fight like a man with him.
The reason IMO why SNES SSF2 is superior to ST, is the lack of supers,
which screw up the game by reducing stragtegy tenfold when one character
has a partucularily powerful super. ST had some good gameplay changes
like Honda being made more powerful with his moving hands and jump up
moving punch, Blanka's hop and slide, and Cammy's new move. But this is
about it. Characters like New Ken are just plain stupid.
chris
Chris Finnie
ak...@powergrid.electriciti.com said...
> Will SF3 be perfect? Hmm.. nah. Looking in my crystal ball
>(didn't know I had one, did you? Well... quartz. Actually, it's a
>quartz watch. Ahem.), I predict the following problems:
>
> Number 1: Ryu and Ken will STILL be used by 9/10ths of people playing
>the game (and steadfastly avoided by everyone with a shred of decency),
So I don't have a shred of decency if I pick Ryu? Even if I enjoy using
him? Who are you to tell me what kind of decency I have due to the
character I choose? Ryu hasn't been overpowered in any SF version,
anyways.
>even if they were weakened to a Dan-like state. No way around it,
You would be a hypocrite to say that you'd prefer 90% of your SF
population used Charlie in place of Ryu. As far as I care, it's better
they use 90% Ryu than 90% Chun Li in SFA2. I certainly wouldn't have
much fun if 90% of ST players used E.Honda. Or SSF2 Dhalsim. Ryu is an
interesting character both to use, and to fight against.
> Number 2: The character balance will be pretty crappy; not bad enough
>to ruin a good engine, but bad enough that one character will dominate.
> I further predict that this character will be pointed out to Capcom
>early on in beta, but nothing will be done about it.
I precidt that this will be inpossible to determine in a beta because
the game will have gone through sufficient changes that there is no way
anyone can gain a sufficient grasp of the game to determine whether a
character is overpowered. When SF2 Classic came out, it took well over a
month for anyone to be able to use Guile effectively, let alone know he
was unbeatable.
> Number 3: Airblocking will either be left in, or taken out. Either
>way, lots of people will complain.
SF3 is the sequel to SF2 as SF2 was the sequel to SF1. I don't see a
reason why SF3 needs to retain ANY of the SFA2 features. Besides, not I
nor should anyone consider SFA/SFA2 even part of the SF2 series. As far
as I care, SF3 should take place where Super Turbo left off.
> So, how am I doing so far?
As well as anyone who actually thinks that SF3 will just be the
equivalent of SF Alpha 3. SF3 will not have 'Alpha Counters'. It will
not have Custom Combos. I don't see how anyone can argue this.
chris
LOSTBOY55
Who are you? How do you think you know all of this (not you chris). I
mean, those are some pretty bad guesses as far as I am concerned. Maybe
you will be totally wrong. I don't think you have any idea of what you
are talking about. I'm not trying to flame you, or start any big
arguements, however I think you are really of the ball.
Lee Chun Seng
Scott Douglas Thompson <sdt...@jove.acs.unt.edu> wrote:
> Simple characters allow the SF-impared to play and enjoy the
>game. More advanced ones intrigue vetrans and experts, who seem to
>naturally find them more fun to play, anyway. And at the same time this
>asures that scrubs and masters can meet on more even terms, and still
>enjoy (?) a game together.
> Comments?
There is certainly a point to what you said in this post... but
have you ever thought of a senario in which an expert uses the RYU and
KEN and those that you classified for the scrubs? The resultant is a
player of similar capabilities WILL still inevitably lose to that
expert. Why? Because KEN and RYU are strong in nature. Where's the
fairness?
Omega MAD
In article <jchensor-010...@ts23-3.wla.ts.ucla.edu>, J Chensor
<jche...@ucla.edu> writes
> Well, then, I from hence forward will never complain
>about character balance anymore because lack of character balance seems to
>be where all my fun is coming from. :-)
> So I will continue to use Gen like George Ngo does, Dan like James
>Romedy does, Guy like, well, like _I_ do, Zangief like I do, and try to
>imitate an Adon like yours merely from word of mouth and what I've heard.
>I love the underdogs and here's to Capcom for providing them for me!
>
YEAH ! Thats the spirit, I chose Dan against a v.good player yesterday
and reached a 2 win streak with him, I guess i've always tryed to use
the non main stream characters, I think ill try to continue doing it
(now for the 3 win streak ...)
Julien B. Beasley
>imbalanced *intentionally*. It's just practical business. Capcom have
>designed their games brilliantly: they appease scrubs and experts si-
>multaneously (regardless of the fervor of the latter's complaints) by
>creating (1) simple and well-rounded characters which appeal to the
>vulgar, lobotomized majority, and (2) characters who beat the most pop-
>ular ones only upon their extensive study and use. Obviously, this
>second set of characters will appeal to the more intellectual player,
>who requires depth of the game engine for his mental stimulation. Cap-
>com know that a high-level player won't stand for defeat at the hands
>of a character who generally requires little mental exertion, so they
>provide more intellectual players with a variety of characters that do
>offer the reward of beating Ryus and Kens and Akumas -- but only in
>the long-term process of intellectual scrutiny of the game. Dhalsim,
>Vega, Balrog, Birdie, Rose, Sodom, and even Cammy can *destroy* the
>shotokans, but *only* at levels of experience *greater* than that of
>the average Ryu player, and Capcom know that, in the process of attain-
>ing such mastery with a more demanding character, a player will have
>invested plenty of cash in the game. And as we all know, the money is
>the bottom line.
Milo, This is one of the best analyses of sf design I have ever read. I
had not thought of that at all, but having read it, I agree
completely. Why do I play Sodom? I do so *because* he is an underrated
character. That's why I played T-Hawk. I enjoy learning a "bad"
character and then winning with him. When I get good enough with a
character that I can expect to win with him, I get bored and try to
learn a new character. It makes perfect sense that capcom would have
realized this and intentionally made weak character...
-Julien
--
Stream polished pebbles
In the mind's still garden pool
Jeffrey Nevins
I guess I'm wrapped up in a crazy sort of anti-Ryu/Ken/Akuma crusade
using underdogs as well...
Jeff "Birdie" Nevins
jeff...@sfsu.edu
"The face of a child can say it all.
Especially the mouth part of the face."
-Jack Handy
Arlontus Halliburton
Are there any hidden characters in this game, and if so please provide me
with information on how to get them.
I heard a rumor that the Silver Surfer is in the game.
A-MAN
Omega MAD
In article <4rk5mg$1...@news.csus.edu>, Jeffrey Nevins
<jeff...@sfsu.edu> writes
Guess i'd have to be with you on that one. Ever since I saw a competant
Ryu player on SF2 WW (more so the power of the DP) I vowed to myself to
never become one of the Ryu/Ken/Akuma Drones we all see around the
arcades today, over the years i've developed a special kind of hatred
towards Ryu, Ken and Akuma (more accurately towards the DP) now I really
enjoy beating the crap out of any R/K/A i happen to end up fighting.
Strange in the beginning (SF, SF2 WW early days) i was such a big Ryu
fan.
--
Omega MAD
----------------------------------------
"Evil is a good career choise,
It has a lot to offer."
-M.Bison
----------------------------------------
Scott Douglas Thompson
Raymond Rowe wrote:
>
> I don't think there are any true hidden characters in the game, just
> evil Ryu, and old Chun Li, Dhalsim and Zangief. If there were any more
> hidden characters, I am sure Capcom would have let the code slip now
> that intrest in the game is slowing down.
Well, I tend to beleive that SFA2 has no more undiscovered hidden
characters, but I can't be too sure. Says Noritaka Fanamizu (VP, Capcom
arcade R&D):
"...we were going to add new models and hidden characters into
Street Fighter Alpha, and we were going to keep quite about it, and not
let anybody know until maybe the point when people had forgotten about
the game. But within a week of its release it was all over the place, on
the Internet and published in various magazines."
Could it be possible that Capcom's just learned it's lesson and
is trying harder to keep the secrets from slipping out so soon? This
sure makes me think so...
--
- Scott "Cherry Blossom PUNCH!!" Thompson
Raymond Rowe
Yeo Eng Seng wrote:
>
> >Are there any hidden characters in this game, and if so please provide me
> >with information on how to get them.
> confirmed !
>
> >I heard a rumor that the Silver Surfer is in the game.
>
> >A-MAN
Raymond Rowe
Scott Douglas Thompson wrote:
>
> Raymond Rowe wrote:
> >
> > I don't think there are any true hidden characters in the game, just
> > evil Ryu, and old Chun Li, Dhalsim and Zangief. If there were any more
> > hidden characters, I am sure Capcom would have let the code slip now
> > that intrest in the game is slowing down.
>
> characters, but I can't be too sure. Says Noritaka Fanamizu (VP, Capcom
> arcade R&D):
>
> "...we were going to add new models and hidden characters into
> Street Fighter Alpha, and we were going to keep quite about it, and not
> let anybody know until maybe the point when people had forgotten about
> the game. But within a week of its release it was all over the place, on
> the Internet and published in various magazines."
>
> Could it be possible that Capcom's just learned it's lesson and
> is trying harder to keep the secrets from slipping out so soon? This
> sure makes me think so...
I never read that interview. If there are still hidden characters yet to
be found, one thing they might do is let the code slip just before the
home versions ship in order to generate more intrest in the game.
Sean McGinnis
Omega MAD (omeg...@mbison.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <4rk5mg$1...@news.csus.edu>, Jeffrey Nevins
::
:: I am a ken user, but I sort of know where you're coming from on that
:: hatred for the dragon punch. I'll be the first one to agree that it is way
:: powerful of a move meaning it's invulnerability. The dragon punch should
:: be as vulnerable as sagat's was in sf2tt. It would make things a lot nicer.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Knee-jerk liberals and all the certified saints of
sanctified humanism are quick to condemn this great and much-
maligned Transylvanian statesman.
--William F. Buckley, Jr.,
The Wit and Wisdom of Vlad the Impaler
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
chu...@microserve.net