The Anti-Dhalsim Campaign
JChensor
prepared for some reading... but please take the time to read this as I
want as much input as possible...
*****
Well, the results are out. Both sides of California had their
tournaments and what were the results? Who won those tournaments? The
answer is easy. Without a doubt, the victor was Dhalsim.
The tournaments prove that Dhalsim is simply too strong of a
character
in Alpha 3. He is so strong that the other characters are simply just
not
a viable option because so many of them lose to Dhalsim for free. Guy,
Sakura, R.Mika (yes, I did pick her against a Dhalsim, I made a bad
choice), Blanka, Birdie, and many others all lose to Dhalsim almost
uncontestedly. Only one character has an even chance / advantage
against
Dhalsim and that's Rolento. So what does that mean? Everyone out there
should go and learn Rolento? What will happen then? We'll end up with
nothing but Rolento Vs. Dhalsim. It'll be like Champion Edition when it
was clearly obvious that Bison and Guile were the only characters worth
using. And we all remember how we felt about Champion Edition after
that:
we all got bored of it. The late CE era was a dark period for SF, when
Turbo Hyper Fighting saved us all by making a game where most of the
characters were good and could win.
Well, if Alpha 3 is also going the way of CE, does that mean that
it
too will get to the point where we're all bored of it? My guess is that
it
will. Dhalsim not only is easily more powerful than any other
character,
he's also the most boring to watch in my opinion. At the Southern Hills
Golfland tournament, we were treated to many Dhalsim Vs. Dhalsim fights
and
let me tell you: it's VERY random. And VERY boring.
There must be a way to save the Alpha 3 tournaments. I think
almost
everyone came to the conclusion that they either need to learn Dhalsim
or
to find a way to beat him (read: pick Rolento). If that's the case,
well
then the next tournament at SHGL on December 19th will simply be a
nightmare. Everyone will be Dhalsim and Rolento, everyone will be
disgusted at the results, and SF's last chance for a revival will all be
gone.
So I have decided to try something awkward. I have never done
anything like this, I have never voiced my disgust at something like
this
before, because I generally believe that whatever's in the game is in
the
game and we have to accept it (unless it's obviously a glitch, like the
L-ism throws). However, in the case of Dhalsim in Alpha 3, I think this
is
too much. Chun Li was not this dominant in Alpha 2. Ken wasn't this
dominant in Alpha 1. In fact, I don't even think Akuma was this
dominant
in 2nd Impact (but that might be stretching it...)! But Dhalsim is too
powerful and so I'm gonna offer a suggestion to the whole SF Tournament
community on how we might be able to weaken Dhalsim and thus, save
Street
Fighter's last chance of glorious competition.
I will first outline how I will go about doing this. I do not want
to
make any brash statemetns, and I want everyone to know that I have
thought
this out very carefully, so I'm gonna go through this VERY slowly.
Here's
an outline of how I'm going to go discuss the topic of weakening
Dhalsim:
1) First, I'll list a lot of evidence that Dhalsim needs weakening.
2) Second, I'll list what Dhalsim SHOULD be like.
3) Third, I'll list my suggestion for weakening Dhalsim.
4) Fourth, I'll address a lot of expected rebuttals to my suggestion.
I. Evidence Of Dhalsim Being WAY Too Good
If we take a good look at the two tournaments that occured on
October
24th, anyone can tell you that Dhalsim is obviously the best character.
In
the SHGL tournament, Dhalsim placed 2nd, 3rd, and 4th (and 5th, if James
Romedy placed fifth, which I believe he did, but am not positive of).
In
the Sunnyvale tournament, Dhalsim placed 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 5th. So in
both
tournaments, in the top 10 positions, Dhalsim was chosen in 7 or 8 of
the
places!!! That's 80% of the top 10 players using Dhalsim!!! Quite
obviously, Dhalsim is the best choice for winning. In past tournaments
for
Alpha 2, we saw a good variety finishing high up: Chun Li, Rose, Ken,
Ryu,
etc. In Alpha 3, we see only one name: Dhalsim. Quite obviously,
Dhalsim
is the best character in this game.
I mean, look at this: Schaefer is reputed for being a good Akuma
player (he's LA Akuma, remember?) and Ken (he's Evil Ken, remember?).
Mike
Watson is known as the master of Ryu. Jason Wilson placed third in the
first tournament with Zangief. Jason Nelson, as far as I remember, was
an
awesome Charlie player in Alpha 2. Dave Sirlin was reputed for being
the
best Zangief and the best Bison in the nation. Graham Wolfe's name
practically made you think Chun Li right away... either that, or his
Rolento from Alpha 2. Who did they all play in the tournaments?
Dhalsim.
All of them played Dhalsim. Coincidence? Dhalsim just getting popular
all
of a sudden? Not likely. It's quite obvious he's just the best choice
to
try and win a tournament with.
Now consider how "difficult" it is to use him. People could argue
Rolento and Gen are just as good as Dhalsim, but to that, I would have
to
disagree. Alex himself has said that Rolento takes a LOT OF WORK to use
and is quite tiring. Gen is dripping with skill and no scrub can pull
off
a lot of his wicked combos and tricks. It takes a lot of dedication to
use
him. But Dhalsim takes a few days and you're there. The day after the
tournament, my brother, my friend Jason, and I all experimented with
anti-Dhalsim strategies. What we discovered was that, although none of
us
use Dhalsim a lot, we were easily able to dispose of each other with
Dhalsim. No matter who used him and and who he fought against, Dhalsim
won
easily, and we have barely even played him before.
Need more evidence that he's too easy to use? Let's take a look at
the battle of Jeff Schafer vs. James Romedy. Romedy has been using
Dhalsim
for how long now? Since Hyper Fighting. Maybe even earlier. He knows
a
ton of tricks and has been playing in Dhalsim style for as long as I can
remember. Jeff Schaefer has always HATED Dhalsim and has disparaged
him. I quote him from the Alpha 2 Versus Book strategy guide as saying,
"Dhalsim and Gen are weak. They are not my style. When they are
losing,
they have no comeback power whatsoever. They are slow and their limbs
can
be hit and ACed too easily. What can Dhalsim do if he has 1 inch of
life
left and I am playing Ken and sitting 2 inches away and ducking
(turtling)?
He is dead... Nothing is for sure with Dhalsim." Obviously, Schaefer
is
not suited for using Dhalsim, right?
But what happens? Schaefer, who has not used Dhalsim EVER
relatively recently picked him up and he wins 2nd place with Dhalsim and
Romedy gets 5th?
And worse yet, Schaefer defeated Romedy in a Dhalsim Vs. Dhalsim fight,
proving
that a man who JUST learned Dhalsim can beat a man who has been playing
him
forever. In other words, Dhalsim has the X-Men Vs. Street Fighter
syndrome: the more skill you utilize, the worse you do, or the less
skill
you utilize, the more likely you'll win. Something is definitely NOT
right when
Schaefer gets farther in a tournament with Dhalsim than Romedy. I'm not
downplaying Jeff's game or anything, but let's face it: after all this
time,
Romedy is obviously more qualified as a Dhalsim player than Jeff.
II. What Was Dhalsim Meant To Be Like?
When Capcom developed Dhalsim, is was quite obvious what they had
in
mind. From Classic to Hyper Fighting, certain things about him remained
tried and true: he was hard to get near because of his great defense, he
was very weak (did little damage), and he took damage and was stunned
easily. Basically: good keep away skills but the player was rewarded if
he
could break the defense. He's been that way all his life. Most
characters
(if not all) are stronger than him, and he took damage and was hurt
easily.
He has always been consistently the easiest to stun in the original SFII
days.
And does this match what he is now? No. Dhalsim is every bit as
strong as the other characters and if you choose X-Dhalsim, he's even
STRONGER than many A-ism characters. His Jab into Yoga Blast combo does
a
ton of damage, and that Super Combo of his hits WAY too easily and does
WAY
too much damage. He simply does not have the strength weakness that he
had
before.
How's his defense? Untouchable. His Jab is a perfect anti-air and
beats 99% of all normal jump-ins. In the days of Super Turbo, one could
argue that his Back+Short kick might have been almost as good. It is
obviously not as good but even if it were, you didn't get a free Yoga
Blast
afterwards for big damage. It was just a small set back for the player
fighting Dhalsim, not a major punishment. And once you finally do break
in? What happens? The Short Slide. Crouching Short simply has way too
much priority and the fact that it's bufferable into a Yoga Fire makes
him
way too good even in close range. Schaefer took out a lot of players
during the prelims by simply sliding 18 thousand times in a row, and no
one
could do anything about it. How ridiculous is that? And any one of
those
can be buffered into a Yoga Fire to push the enemy far far away. In
other
words, his weakness of a lack of close-up fighting is non existent
again.
And like Schaefer said: what of his weakness of no come-back
potential? Before, if you were winning against Dhalsim, he had little
chance of beating you. In Alpha 3, they gave his Drills and Yoga Mummy
VERY
good priority, no delay when landing (or very little of it), and his
moves
do as much Guard Damage as anyone else, even though he can reach people
a
LOT easier. So what happened to his lack of comeback power? It's gone
as
well. With the ability to ALWAYS keep the enemy fearing for his Guard
Meter, Dhalsim's come back ability is greater than 90% of the other
characters.
Speed? Dhalsim's other weakness was that he was slow. In this
game,
it doesn't even affect him, and the fact that his Drills have so much
priority make up for his high jump and his slow walking speed. Few
moves
actually beat the Yoga Mummy when it's coming straight at you. And if
you
use A-ism, his high jump is barely a problem since you can Air Block
most
moves that can reach you while you're up there. And if you're too far
up,
simply Roundhouse Drill and you'll land quickly and safely.
So in other words, all of Dhalsim's weaknesses have been
eliminated.
He is no longer weak, he no longer has poor close-up combat, and he no
longer has poor comeback abilities. He has a perfect anti-air, and a
perfect keepaway, and the best super in the game. So what is his
weakness
now? He has none, pure and simple.
III. How Can We Make Dhalsim Fair?
I am not one to suggest banning characters if they're too powerful.
However, at the SHGL tournament, towards the end, I heard many
disgruntled
players mumbling stuff about banning Dhalsim, like how the L-ism
characters
of Karin, Guy, Vega, and Balrog are banned. However, I think banning
Dhalsim is going a bit too far. I figure there must be a way to make
him
fair, to make him how he was supposed to be: good defense, weak
strengthed,
combo-less, and scared for his life if the enemy gets in.
So after thinking about it, I have come up with an easily
implementable
solution: L-ism Dhalsim. I feel that, after the Nationals are over, we
can
begin implementing a tournmanet rule that only L-ism Dhalsim is allowed.
This allows players to still choose between X-ism, A-ism, and V-ism.
And
best of all, it returns Dhalsim to his original intented state.
Although he won't be "weak" as he was before, he'll definitely lose
a
lot of power from losing his Jab into Yoga Blast combo. Now, his Jab
will
simply be the minor set-back that his good anti-air was before. He'll
lose
his Short slide into Yoga Fire, making it so that he cannot easily push
the
enemy away, giving the player who got through Dhalsim's defense more
reward. Finally, Dhalsim's Guard Meter will be MUCH shorter, making it
so
that you are much more easily rewarded for getting in on him. If you
break
his Guard, than you can get free hits. This will basically simulate his
high damage rate and his easy ability to get stunned from the old days.
Dhalsim used to play as if he were scared when the enemy got close...
now
it will be like that again.
So these few limitations on Dhalsim might make him mush more fair.
I
haven't yet played L-ism Dhalsim to test if he is not SO weakened that
he
no longer is an option, but as far as I can tell, it should work out.
Dhalsim was so overpowered that losing these few things shouldn't hamper
his ability to win all that much.
IV. Don't Hit Reply Yet! Here Are Some Rebuttals To Expected Arguments
Without a doubt, there will be a lot of people complaining about
this
solution. To me, there are only two main arguments against this
implementation of L-ism Dhalsim.
First, this will undoubtedly suck for those who have always USED
Dhalsim. Guys like Jason Cole and James Romedy have always used
Dhalsim.
Why should they get punished by having their favorite character weakened
because everyone else makes him scrubby? Well, simply put, I think that
since they have the past experience with Dhalsim, they should be able to
handle the decrease in strngth. Not only that, but James Romedy and
Jason
Cole have enough skill to back themselves up with other characters.
Romedy's Chun Li is awesome and we all know Cole's Balrog is deadly.
Besides, if James and Jason think like most players think, they hate
seeing
their favorite character scrubbified so badly. I personally dislike
seeing
Zangief scrubs at my school rack up 25 game win straks by repeatedly
Splashing to the point where I don't even like using Zangief anymore!
If
James and Jason feel the same about Dhalsim, I think they'd understand
my
desire to weaken Dhalsim.
But the Dhlasim scrubs out there won't be able to use him at all
and
will be forced to learn a character that takes more skill than normal
Dhalsim.
And maybe, the variety will be brought back. Sirlin will once again
pick
Zangief and Bison, Graham Wolfe can stick with Rolento or pull Chun Li
back
out, Schaefer can prove his skills by returning to Akuma, Jason Nelson
can
refine his X-Rolento, and Jason Wilson can make his Zangief better than
ever. That makes the character count go from 1 to at least 6 already!
Think of all the other Dhalsim bandwagon players out there. They'll be
forced to pick other characters and in the next SHGL tourney, the
character
variety will return, and considering the fact that Alpha 3 has the best
balance
outside of Dhalsim that Stret Fighter has ever seen (I truly believe
that NO
characters suck in this game, not even Dan or Juni and Juli), the
resulting
menagerie of characters will be great (unless we start seeing a huge
return
to the hordes of Shotos... :-( )!!! And SF glory might still be able
to
last a bit longer.
Second, Dhalsim will never ever ever ever ever ever beat Rolento
ever
again if he is "L-ismed." Very good point and thus, I say, since
Rolento
is the only character that can beat Dhalsim, if it is determined before
the
players hit Start that Dhalsim vs. Rolento will occur, Dhalsim need not
choose L-ism and can be normal... ONLY for against Rolento.
So in conclusion, I think that by weakening Dhalsim, we could save
Alpha 3 from a potentially SF-destroying path. Alpha 3 has generated
more
enthusiasm for SF than we've seen in a LOOOOONG time, bringing back old
champions like Mike Watson and getting everyone talking about it again.
Heck, even this National tournament is a result of SF's returning
popularity. Capcom has done a very decent job of trying to make SF
Alpha 3
a "Skilled Player's" game, not a scrub game. Dhalsim is single handedly
the one character standing in the way of that. My quest here is not out
of
spite towards Dhalsim (yes, I did lose to a Dhalsim in the tournament,
but
that's not the reason why I'm so disgusted at Dhalsim). My quest here
is
out of fear that Dhalsim will ruin the game. People left the SHGL
tournament with very little excitement because it was such a letdown at
the
end. So many Dhalsim Vs. Dhalsim fights. So little action. It was
apparent to me that SF was about to take an ugly turn. So I hope that
this
post will convince people that weakening Dhalsim is a good idea and
might
be able to save the SF tournaments from a flood of boring Dhalsims.
Please, reply to this post and voice your opinions. I want to see if we
can all come to a conclusion before the December 19th tournament. If we
can find a way to promote more character variety, than I feel like we
should do it. Thank you for taking the time to read this HUGE post. I
hope you appreciate my comments and take what I say seriously, because I
really do feel strongly about this. Once again, thank you for your
time.
- James Chen a.k.a. JChensor
- James Chen
======================|| jche...@ucla.edu ||======================
||"To be or not to be: that is the question, whether tis nobler in ||
|| the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune."||
|| ||
|| -------======= can be anagrammed to form: =======------- ||
|| ||
|| "In one of the Bard's best-thought-of tragedies, our insistent ||
||hero, Hamlet, queries on two fronts about how life turns rotten."||
|| - anagram created by Cory Calhoun ||
=====================================================================
Chris Pugh
that dhalsim is a bit too powerful. Ok i was at the sunnyvale golfland
tournament, and to be honest there were only 3 dhalsim dhalsim matches
out of tons of players , first was myself vs an x dhalsim, i play a
dhalsim, next was cole and alex wolfe finally graham and alex wolfe. The
match is actually a skill match if you understand how to play dhalsim
well enough. I can say this, after watching Alex Graham and Cole play
dhalsim vs dhalsim its clear they are trained in the match, if cole can
defend his title in that match then obviously its not very random. But
some of you dont find dhalsim vs dhalsim exciting, oh well. Cole vs choi
was dhalsim vs gen and ryu, Nelson vs choi was ryu vs gen, Nelson vs
Graham was Rolento vs Dhalsim. As you can see only half of those matches
even had dhalsim in them, anyways point is if dhalsim was that easy to
play then we would all be using him.
Kool
Tom Cannon
[snip]
>As you can see only half of those matches
>even had dhalsim in them, anyways point is if dhalsim was that easy to
>play then we would all be using him.
>
Dude, we are all using him. That's the entire point. Let's look at
some of the the top players and who they all play:
Jason Cole - Dhalsim, Charlie
Alex Valle - Rolento, Ryu, etc.
John Choi - Gen, Ryu, etc.
Jason Nelson - Dhalsim, Rolento, Ryu
Mike Watson - Dhalsim, ...
Jeff Shaefer - Dhalsim, ...
James Romedy - Dhalsim, ...
Graham Wolfe - Dhalsim, ...
Alex Wolfe - Dhalsim, ...
Surprise! Almost everyone uses Dhalsim! And guess what? None of these
people played Dhalsim in Alpha2, except Jason Cole.
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
Castellan
Not entirely relevent, but it's great discussions like this
that keep me subscribed to this group. Good work, Mr. Chensor.
--- ---
Douglas L. Erickson - ECN Computer Publications and Training Specialist
mail to: dou...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu --- http://www.ecn.ou.edu/~douglas
SegaNet: http://www.seganet.com/ for Sega-related info ICQ#: 12822495
--- ECN does not, in any way, sponsor or endorse my rabid opinions. ---
Kao Megura
Just a question: has anyone successfully beaten Dhalsim using Classical
mode? After all, you have no GC'ing to worry about in that mode, it seems
like it would offer a good advantage.
>
>
> III. How Can We Make Dhalsim Fair?
> I am not one to suggest banning characters if they're too powerful.
> However, at the SHGL tournament, towards the end, I heard many
> disgruntled
> players mumbling stuff about banning Dhalsim, like how the L-ism
> characters
> of Karin, Guy, Vega, and Balrog are banned. However, I think banning
> Dhalsim is going a bit too far. I figure there must be a way to make
> him
> fair, to make him how he was supposed to be: good defense, weak
> strengthed,
> combo-less, and scared for his life if the enemy gets in.
> So after thinking about it, I have come up with an easily
> implementable
> solution: L-ism Dhalsim.
I don't like the thought of the damage Dhalsim will be able to do, though,
it seems to not be much of a trade for no two-in-ones. If he hits you with
a couple of HPs (and Dhalsim has an easy time hitting people out of moves /
just plain smacking around the careless), you'd be pretty badly messed up.
> I
> haven't yet played L-ism Dhalsim to test if he is not SO weakened that
> he
> no longer is an option, but as far as I can tell, it should work out.
> Dhalsim was so overpowered that losing these few things shouldn't hamper
> his ability to win all that much.
Well, the damage is pretty bad, like I said. I wouldn't want him sliding
into me hundreds of times, or I'd end up half dead if I made any mistakes.
> (I truly believe
> that NO
> characters suck in this game, not even Dan
Of course not! Dan's one of the best in this game! ^^;
> Please, reply to this post and voice your opinions. I want to see if we
> can all come to a conclusion before the December 19th tournament. If we
> can find a way to promote more character variety, than I feel like we
> should do it. Thank you for taking the time to read this HUGE post. I
> hope you appreciate my comments and take what I say seriously, because I
> really do feel strongly about this. Once again, thank you for your
> time.
I wonder if it would be possible to get this implemented in the Nickel City
Tournament in November...probably not.
As your run-of-the-mill player, I think this should be implemented. But
then again, it's comparable to all those scrubby VS players who can get
hundreds of wins with Spiderman or Wolverine. Yeah, it sucks, but they
have every right to pick those characters, and it's your problem if you
can't beat them. To wit, Dhalsim doesn't even have any glitches or serious
problems with him; he's just too darn good ;0 I don't really think that
that is reason enough to impose a restriction on him. Then again, it's
better than something like "you can only use Dhalsim for one battle in an
entire tournament".
- Kao Megura - (forever a Dan Hibiki fan!)
mail: kmegura (at) yahoo (dot) com
home: i.am/kao (or) kao.home.ml.org
slateman
> then again, it's comparable to all those scrubby VS players who can get
> hundreds of wins with Spiderman or Wolverine. Yeah, it sucks, but they
> have every right to pick those characters, and it's your problem if you
> can't beat them. To wit, Dhalsim doesn't even have any glitches or serious
> problems with him; he's just too darn good ;0 I don't really think that
> that is reason enough to impose a restriction on him. Then again, it's
> better than something like "you can only use Dhalsim for one battle in an
> entire tournament".
Similarly, Shin Gouki wasn't allowed in A2 tourneys (I think at
least). Granted, he's just an overpowered version, but if Dhal is just
way too overpowered, then perhaps it isn't a bad idea after all.
Since this one factor can so seriously injure many aspects of the
game, it must be considered. I hate to admit this, but I STILL haven't
played A3 (so why am I talking?), but i've been playing alongside all of
us over the years. We've seen how aspects like these can really ruin a
lot more than just a few tournaments. I'm dying to play A3...no matter
how it turned out I would feel the same, but it's moreso because of agsf2
that I'm a raving lunatic about it now! Finally, after all the jokes
(super SF turbo gold excelsior edition...grr!), and the posts about
inbalance and whatnot...SF is great again (I loved A2...)
It's a shame that this one factor weighs so heavily over the
entire SF community. Hopefully at least the home version will be
corrected.
-slate.
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DanSTurTle
is though, the home version of SF games has very little impact on the existance
of the SF community. Arcades are where we gather together to enjoy something
that we have in common with many many other people, playing streetfighter. The
home versions only allow us to mingle with a few friends at most. Granted it
is possible to hold tournaments with home versions, I really doubt the SF
community will survive if that's how it's got to be. I'm all for imposing this
restriction on Dhal but I do feel it needs to be looked into. I'm concerned
that if the restriction is imposed, where do you draw the line. Dhal shouldn't
be restricted against Rolento. Why should he be restricted against Gen. And
if Dhal is removed from top position, wat's to prevent everyone from switching
to Rolento? Don't get me wrong, I really do think the restriction would be a
good thing if it will revive interest, but it needs to be seriously looked into
before it's implemented. And if the restriction if known, we have to make it
known to the entire SF community, not just the people on agsf2 who read the
post. We don't want mishaps where people travel across the country only to
find they can't use their favorite character in their favorite mode. Another
thing that needs to be examined is if it will be internationally known. This
kind of restriction would be hard to enforce I'd think. So first step should
be to look into it. Personally, I'm all for it.
Airick 'Airshox Zaskar'
counrty. Down here in Singapore, there area couple of Dhalsim users but
aren't really good enuff to be considered pros. I've only seen one *really*
good Dhaly player and he was like zoning and sliding and controling the
game. As for whether he's overpowered or not, I'm in no position to comment
coz I ain't a Dhaly fan. :) Maybe if they juz weaken his damage level...
might've been better off... NEway, why not get a petition from all the
players around the globe (Jap players included) and send it over to Capcom
to churn out a Zero3 umm... Second Impact? Whatever! ;)
BTW, does NEone know if Jap players are crazy over Dhaly as well? If not,
what kinda characters are they into? Oh and there's a SFZ3 tounament being
held in Hong Kong on the 25th of October, 10am till 6pm. Its an official
Capcom event with the champ being sent to Jap (as usual) for more SFZ3
matches! So is there NEone in this ng that will be turning up? Juz
curious...
Lastly, wish U all the best in this anti-Dhaly thingy James! ;D
Airick out!
The new SFZAC-X - http://members.xoom.com/sfzac
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Banning him is too much; ST Akuma was banned because there was basically
no way to beat him whatsoever, whereas a character like WW Guile was just
plain old bullshit (esp. with the fact that only 1 could choose him).
Guile beat everyone in WW, but not 10-0 or 9-1. Yes Dhal gets picked very
often, but I don't think this is enough. You have to show me where he's
invincible, a far cry from very good or overpowered...
Forced L-ism? It's functionally banning him; too many ways to take
advantage of the shit for GC meter.
Incidentally, (and having never picked Mism) is Maji blanket-banned as
well as the L modes of a Karin+friends?
--
I.J.Finster
in the test/beta versions of the game? If so, it might
have been better if people spoke up about this way
back then.
Think about it: Does anoyone remember Mortal Kombat 3?
In the first version or so of the game,
there was a character who seemed to be ridiculously
overpowered, Kabal, who could do 45% + from one chain combo.
Midway put out a newer version (in the arcade) which
toned down Kabal considerably (I'm assuming after player
feedback), and the home versions all reflected this version.
I'm not sure if banning Dhalsim is necessarily the best
thing to do. I mean, I agree that he is very powerful,
but I would miss him if he was gone. And I don't even play
him. I just think he's a classic character. I just can't
stand to see him bastardized either :(
If he is weakened, how could this be done in a tasteful
manner? That is to say, I certainly don't want him tweaked
to worthlessness. Look at some of the characters that keep
getting worse throughout the alphas. We don't need
another one on that pile. What could weaken him to a point
where he doesn't suck, yet isn't the Almighty?
And, one more thing: if Capcom is going to go through the
trouble to fix Dhalsim, (HA HA HA), they probably have the
chance to fix some of the other characters too...i.e., strengthen
some of the lower-tier folks. What do you all think about
this? Quick, before your hell-bound snowballs are nothing
but a memory!
Just my contribution to the healthy discussion here.
Fin
Kuro
[CHOMP]
> So in conclusion, I think that by weakening Dhalsim, we could save
>Alpha 3 from a potentially SF-destroying path. Alpha 3 has generated
>more enthusiasm for SF than we've seen in a LOOOOONG time, bringing
>back old champions like Mike Watson and getting everyone talking about
>it again. Heck, even this National tournament is a result of SF's returning
>popularity. Capcom has done a very decent job of trying to make SF
>Alpha 3 a "Skilled Player's" game, not a scrub game. Dhalsim is single
>handedly the one character standing in the way of that. My quest here is
>not out of spite towards Dhalsim (yes, I did lose to a Dhalsim in the
>tournament, but that's not the reason why I'm so disgusted at Dhalsim).
>My quest here is out of fear that Dhalsim will ruin the game. People left the
>SHGL tournament with very little excitement because it was such a letdown
>at the end. So many Dhalsim Vs. Dhalsim fights. So little action. It was
>apparent to me that SF was about to take an ugly turn. So I hope that this
>post will convince people that weakening Dhalsim is a good idea and might
>be able to save the SF tournaments from a flood of boring Dhalsims.
>Please, reply to this post and voice your opinions. I want to see if we
>can all come to a conclusion before the December 19th tournament. If we
>can find a way to promote more character variety, than I feel like we
>should do it. Thank you for taking the time to read this HUGE post. I
>hope you appreciate my comments and take what I say seriously, because I
>really do feel strongly about this. Once again, thank you for your
>time.
Considering that A3 has 28 characters and 3 modes per character (4 if
you want to include no-ism), IMO A3 has pretty impressive balance.
Yes, you have the (non-top tier) mismatches such as Birdie vs Bison
(in favor of Bison), Bison vs Zangief (in favor of Zangief), Honda vs
Chun Li (in favor of Chun Li)... SF games will always have some bad
mismatches. However, underrated V-Cody is an excellent choice against
top tier Rolento IMO... Birdie does a lot better against top-tier Gen
than most people would believe. Excluding the top tier, the balance
seems pretty nice from what I see.
But let's take a look at the 'top tier':
Ryu - Ryu always finds a way to be top-tier or right near it. We
should all be used to this by now.
Gen - In the right hands... DEADLY. Excluding 'ghetto gen', he takes
a lot of work, a lot of precision and a lot of technique IMO.. more
than the average player can provide.
Rolento - He falls in the same category as Gen IMO. Again, a lot of
work and a lot of technique is needed to be truly successful with him.
There seemed to have been a wave of new Rolento players a month or two
ago, but that didn't last long at all.
Dhalsim - Probably the easiest character for the lesser skilled player
to have success with. Great offense, great defense, and great GCing
ability. No significant problem characters in the game aside from
Rolento IMO, but some characters can still give Dhalsim a run for his
money with the right strategy and a good deal of patience. But you
still don't see Dhalsim 'scrubs' knocking off good players. The
intermediate Dhalsim player will beat the more skilled player more
than he should but still shouldn't dominate. It's the elite SF player
who applies his knowledge to the 'easy to use' A3 Dhalsim that seems
to be causing a lot of the complaints. That and everyone jumping on
the bandwagon...
(BTW, I play against one of California's top two Dhalsim players IMO
on a regular basis (Romedy), so I definitely am aware of the BS factor
of Dhalsim)
Dhalsim is definitely overpowered IMO. I've said he was #1 in the
game since the beginning of August (right after the A3 final was
released). But should he have restrictions put on him? IMO, no.
Does he ruin the game? Hm. Well, he's still a beatable character...
unfortunately, you just have to work harder than your opponent to do
it... and I think it definitely affects your character choice. Maybe
I'm just too old-school to believe that things can't be overcome with
hard work. Remember, I'm the idiot who loved the challenge of trying
to beat Ryu with Honda in HF and ST.
I'm sure we'll see a large number of Dhalsims at Nationals. This is
going to be the big show for Street Fighter. Do anything to win, I
say. But some of the players who place high with Dhalsim might draw
some criticism (like they are now), and BTW, the only Dhalsim players
I can remember from the Alpha 2 tournament scene are Cole, Romedy, and
Tom Cannon. The California tournament scene just forces you to pull
out all the stops. You really can't blame or penalize them for taking
advantage of Dhalsim.
I haven't enjoyed a Street Fighter game as much as I have Alpha 3
since Super Turbo. I think it's one of the best versions (despite the
flaws) and is certainly worthy of a sequel/upgrade. It's unfortunate
that Dhalsim is the way he is in A3, but if you want to fix Dhalsim,
it should be done with the sequel, not with the already released A3.
--
Bob Painter
black...@aznet.net
Tom Cannon
I.J.Finster <fin...@REMOVETHISmail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>Just out of curiosity. Was Dhalsim this powerful
>in the test/beta versions of the game? If so, it might
>have been better if people spoke up about this way
>back then.
>
The beta at Sunnyvale Golfland crashed after Dhalsim won
a match. So as you can imagine, Dhalsim didn't get
played much. To Capcom's credit, they did fix several
problems uncovered in that beta, like Ken's X-mode super
doing 3/4 of a guard meter, and V-Cody being able to
dodge ALL attacks.
[snip]
>
>If he is weakened, how could this be done in a tasteful
>manner? That is to say, I certainly don't want him tweaked
>to worthlessness. Look at some of the characters that keep
>getting worse throughout the alphas. We don't need
>another one on that pile. What could weaken him to a point
>where he doesn't suck, yet isn't the Almighty?
If we were back in the beta I would suggest axing the priority
on the short slide and the close low fierce. As James
mentions, Dhalsim is a terror largly because he can slide
through 98.2% of people's close attacks.
[snip]
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
JChensor
stuff,
and a lot of good points have been brought up. First of all, I'd like
to
start this e-mail by clearing up some of my original intentions.
When I first suggested to weaken Dhalsim, I only want to do so for
tournaments. Regular play is fine, I don't think we need to impose any
sort of world-wide (nation-wide) forcing of L-ism on Dhalsim at local
arcades. That's impossible and ridiculous for me to even suggest
seriously. I just feel it might be necessary in future tournaments
featuring a lot of the well known players from the SF community.
Secondly, I don't want to force this on the Nationals. The
Nationals
coming up in about a week should be no holds barred. I think Dhalsim
should be used to the utmost effectiveness possible. It IS the
Nationals,
and whomever is the most powerful, should be the most powerful. I have
no
qualms about sending our top Dhalsim player against the Top player in
Japan
if he happens to get there. That's fine to me.
Mainly, what I'm trying to do is to control the huge amounts of
Dhalsim playing in future tournaments. The tournaments, although they
are
for a lot of bragging rights, a lot of posturing, etc., they should be,
as
Schaefer pointed out in his attempt to revive the CSFA, FUN. They
should
be about as much fun as possible.
Now I'm not bitching here and saying that Dhalsim makes the
tournament
"not fun." I, too, enjoyed match-ups that were not really in my favor.
Like Bob, I enjoyed the Honda vs. Ryu match-up in ST. I love fighting
Guile in ANY version of SF with Zangief. And I also liked using Zangief
against Dhalsim in Alpha 2.
My complaint about Dhalsim comes from two main places: one, that
after
the tournament, little enthusiasm about the results was felt. People
seemed kinda of "ho-hum" about the end of the tournaments, and, as said
before, I heard little mumblings about Dhlasim being too overpowered.
Dhalsim pretty much killed the "excitement" level at the end of the
tournament. Two, the ability of Dhalsim to restrict character choices
is
pretty bad.
Who are my favorite characters to use in Alpha 3, you ask?
Currently,
they are Guy, R.Mika, Sakura, and Sodom. Of those characters, only
Sodom
stands a decent chance against Dhalsim. Sakura is a terrific character,
capable of fighting against ANY other chracter EXCEPT Dhalsim. And
because
of that, Sakura is not a good choice for the tournament. A character
like
Gen is GREAT but has a poor chance of beating Dan (don't ask). Would
this
discourage you from using Gen? No! Because only 1 person in the world
would use Dan in a tournament right now and that's my friend Jason. So
Gen
remains a viable option. However, since ALL THE TOP PLAYERS IN THE
TOURNAMENTS WILL USE DHALSIM, any character that dies to him becomes
completely illogical to choose. This is where the problem occurs. As I
said earlier, Dhalsim was chosen by all of the top positions except by
Alex
Valle and John Choi (and we KNOW what kind of players they are, they
never
choose the work-less characters). So pretty much what this is saying
is:
if you want to finish in the top, you either have to A) Use Dhalsim. B)
Play someone who can beat Dhalsim (Gen or Rolento). C) Be Alex Valle or
John Choi. Unless some people really hone in their anti-Dhalsim skills
with their particular favorite character, Dhalsim will be causing a
strongly felt restriction on character choices.
This kind of restriction seems bothersome. We all remeber in the
B3
tournament when Julien Beasely finished top five using Sodom. That was
cool! The very first tournament I played in for Alpha 2, I shocked
everyone by finishing 3rd with Zangief, who at that time was considered
to
be one of the worst characters in that game. This kind of surprise and
possibility for new character faces to show up are all gone because of
Dhlasim. I don't feel like I could ever pick R.Mika seriously in a
tournament because of Dhalsim. And I bet most other people who use less
popular characters feel the same way: "I'm doing it just for fun, I
don't
think I can ever win," mainly because of Dhalsim. Pretty much, everyone
has to be forced to learn Rolento or Gen, or learn how to play Dhalsim
Vs.
Dhalsim. Otherwise, forget it. You aren't gonna place. That's the
truth
that I want to fight. There basically is no chance of placing unless
you
pick Dhalsim, Rolento, or Gen.
The past two tournaments have proven it. Although not as many
Dhalsim Vs.
Dhalsim matches occured in the SVGL tourney, everyone up there used
Dhalsim
to get to the top (except John). Everyone in the SHGL tourney used
Dhalsim
to get to the top (except Alex). I doubt that in any tournaments for A3
in
the future, we'll see ANY OTHER NAMES in the top 3 except Rolento, Gen,
and
Dhalsim, and that's a shame (unless some new development crops up).
Rolento and Gen aren't even really that much better than other
characters,
IMO. It's just that they can fight Dhalsim and that's why they are
there.
Most characters can fight Rolento and Gen and not feel completely
disadvantaged like you would if you played, say, Guy Vs. Dhalsim.
That's why I want to weaken Dhalsim. Just to bring back the
element
of the "unknown" to the tournaments after the Nationals. I don't feel
like
I hate Dhalsim or that I think he's unfair, I just think he sets the
results of the tournaments too rigidly. No variety will come about
while
he remains the same, but banning him is way too harsh. The L-ism thing
seemed like a decent idea, but I may not have been aware of the increase
of
damage that Kao pointed out (if this does happen, maybe Dhalsim won't be
THAT much weaker!).
But as some people pointed out, where does this all end? I mean,
weakening Dhalsim is a step to balancing out the game (and I'm grateful
for
the fact that Capcom actually put in little L-isms and M-isms and stuff
to
find ways to easily implement weakenings...), but is this fair to
Dhalsim?
I mean, Gen will destroy him completely! I'm thinking if we actually
consider this Dhalsim Weakening, we should seriously take every
character
into account and see whom it should apply to. Seeing that Gen and
Rolento
are really the only two characters who have a good chance against
Dhalsim,
obviously, the L-ism shouldn't be forced against them. Discussion on
others may have to follow. Some characters like Sodom and Chun Li can
do
pseudo-Rolento-like Death By Pokes against Dhalsim, and those characters
would kill Dhalsim every time if this L-ism is imposed, so it could
possibly make Dhalsim the worst character in the game... so we may have
to
work a lot of kinks out of this idea first... if people out there are
willing to try it out and see how it goes, please give your results!
I would like to address and offer a rebuttal a good point brought
up
by DanSTurtle. If Dhalsim is weakened, why aren't we afraid we're just
gonna get an influx of Rolentos? Should we restrict him?
I say no because, as I said, Rolento is one tough character to use.
People can try to imitate the Alex-style Rolento as much as possible,
but
it's not that easy. Rolento takes a LOT of work and a LOT of
coordination
to use. Like Bob Painter said, after the first tournament, a BUNCH of
Rolento players came from nowhere, and then disappeared rather quickly.
Why? He's literally too much work! I remember catching Alex during the
64-
entry tournament this summer outside the arcade trying to regain his
energy because Rolento was way too tiring to use. I've used Rolento a
lot
as well and I know that Rolento takes work, and that's the main thing
keeping people from using him abusively. If you can learn Rolento and
get
really good at him, more power to you. But at least, you know it took
hard
work to get to that point.
Dhalsim, on the other hand, takes very LITTLE work to get good at.
I
rarely EVER play Dhalsim. In fact, as far as I know, I have NEVER been
able to use Dhalsim my whole entire life. I've sucked with him in every
version of Street Fighter to this date. Yet, in Alpha 3, when I pick
him,
my friends cannot beat me. And when my friends use Dhalsim, I have one
HELL of a time trying to beat them! Even if I pick my best character
against their Dhalsim, I have trouble. Does this make sense? As I
said,
Jeff Schaefer, like me, has always disliked Dhalsim, yet in about one
month's of practice, he placed second place with him? I've never heard
of
Sirlin using Dhalsim, and he places 5th? Graham Wolfe has never used
Dhalsim as far as I can tell and he got 4th? Mike Watson, after not
playing SF for a VERY long time, returns and finishes third with
Dhalsim?
I think the evidence that Dhalsim is too easy to use is overwhelming.
A lot of good points have been brought up, and I've had to
reconsider
a lot of ideas that I formerly had (but that's the point of discussions
on
this newsgroup, right?). So in conclusion, the weaknening of Dhalsim
may
be going a bit too far, and it may need to be checked on a character by
character basis (the problem with this, though, is why don't we do this
for
EVERY match-up and try to make them ALL fair? Why just Dhalsim?). So
in
the end, the implementation of L-ism on Dhalsim may be a bad idea after
all. I think we need to try a few L-ism Dhalsim fights to see how it
affects him before we can make a final decision. I'm still curious as
to
see what people think, though. So let's keep the discussion going.
Thanks
for all the input!
j nelson
JChensor wrote:
> We're getting a lot of good input here about this Anti-Dhalsim
> stuff,
> and a lot of good points have been brought up. First of all, I'd like
> to
> start this e-mail by clearing up some of my original intentions.
>
> When I first suggested to weaken Dhalsim, I only want to do so for
> tournaments. Regular play is fine, I don't think we need to impose any
> sort of world-wide (nation-wide) forcing of L-ism on Dhalsim at local
> arcades. That's impossible and ridiculous for me to even suggest
> seriously. I just feel it might be necessary in future tournaments
> featuring a lot of the well known players from the SF community.
i have to say one thing about dhali if the person playing him is not equal
to the oppnent
skill level then the opponent will most likely beat 'that' dhalsim easily
with anyone
like ryu sagat etc chars dhali beats easily
Chris Pugh
I hear all this bullshit about how Cole isnt that great at this game but
he wins since his character is so powerful. thats a bunch of bullshit. he
has a ton of skill, this game is back to skill and not combos and cc
bullshit thats why alot of the people who were getting first and second
in street fighter 3 and alpha 2 and 1 arent winning first anymore, when
it comes down to pure skill and outthinking your oppponent alot of the
old school players will win over some of these new young players that
didnt even play in the old versions. Dhalsim isnt as easy to use as
everyone thinks, if he was how come john choi and valle dont use him?
Nelson doesnt use Dhalsim and he has won tournaments where he had to play
against him. Anyways im sick of talking about this, its sad when people
clone someone elses Dhalsim then say he is too overpowered, and what i
mean is people are cloning coles A dhalsim. Even i do it.
Kool
Chris Pugh
ryu/rolento player got third in the last sunnyvale tournament? its due to
the skill level of the player, alot of good players choose dhalsim
because he is good but in sunnyvale we dont have 100 dhalsim clones, alot
of the dhalsim players are old school dhalsim players from back when
certain people said dhalsim sucked. Now that we can use dhalsim again
decently people get all pissy over it, just learn how to fight against
him properly and he isnt too tough to beat, or find a new character if
yours sucks vs dhalsim.
Kool
Evil Ken
--
"When you play me, dont get frustrated because you will lose that much
faster"
>
> (BTW, I play against one of California's top two Dhalsim players IMO
> on a regular basis (Romedy), so I definitely am aware of the BS factor
> of Dhalsim)
Well I guess your 2 boy isn't so good since I beat him 3-0 with ease. He
only won 1 round.
Other topics.
You think its so easy to use dhalsim? WHy the hell did a Ryu/Rolento/Gen
get #2 and #3 consistently in Sunnyvale and why didnt Dhalsim win the
tournament in SHGL? After all, its so damn easy.
You people try playing a/v dhalsim and see how hard it is. Short limbs,
far, damn, that shit takes skill.
I use V alot but SIm Vs Sim I pretty much know X is the best.
Playing Dhalsim has nothing to do with jumping on the bandwagon. Its
called, I payed $10 or $20 to play in this fucking thing, and I am gonna
use the best character I can so I can win money.
I think the dumbest thing I saw was Zangief Vs Zangief. Bob, what are you
dumb man? You paid the money to enter just to lose like that? If you want
to ever win, you have to make better picks. Thats what dhalsim and rolento
are all about (Smart picks).
I used Dhalsim on SF2, Champion EXCLUSIVELY, and Hyper and Super/Turbo as a
counter character.
I didnt play Sim on A2 cause he flat out sucked and I dont enter
tournaments and waste my time not trying to win. People bitch I am a copy.
FUCK you, I played SIm before anybody, bottom line. Its not copying, its
a damn character, if someone wants to play him fuck it!.
Dhalsim might be the best, but if the person playing against me doesnt have
the skill, then he just cant win. Why did I destroy all the wannabe's at
SHGL and not alex? Cause Alex has more skill than me.
LAAkuma
mdr...@webtv.net
course, he was way to cheap and powerful). I always figure it is just
another challenge to get over. If all these guys want to use Dhalsim to
win, more power to them. It just gives more credit to the guys that can
beat them with the weaker characters. I know what people are going to
say "Well what about if Alex or Choi or etc. are using him, they can't
be beat." So what, so you can't get 1st or 2nd because of them, just do
the best you can with the character you like and settle for that. If you
are hung up on getting that 1st or 2nd place, then do the same as they
do and pick him. If you don't like playing Dhalsim then don't cry when
you lose if you take another character, Just settle for the idea that
you did the best you can.
The idea of banning a character to me means that you don't want to
take the time to learn how to deal with that character. I learned way
around Shin Akuma, Chun Li, and Ken. I say lets just have fun and forget
this bullshit of whining about how this or that character is to powerful
and should be banned.
Kuro
>> (BTW, I play against one of California's top two Dhalsim players IMO
>> on a regular basis (Romedy), so I definitely am aware of the BS factor
>> of Dhalsim)
>
>only won 1 round.
Jeff, I don't understand why you take everything so personal. My
statement about Romedy being one of the top California Dhalsim players
was no attack on anyone. I stated it just to inform everyone of my
expericence of playing against a top notch Dhalsim player... because
this thread is about Dhalsim.
I watched the match between you and Romedy and when I saw him choose
V-Dhalsim for the first match, I could not believe what he was doing.
When he chose V-Dhalsim for the second match, again I could not
believe it. He managed one win before losing, then for a third time
chose V-Dhalsim. (BTW, Romedy never plays V Dhalsim, even in casual
play)
After the match was over, I asked him "what in the world were you
doing picking V-Dhalsim?" He replied with "I wasn't taking Jeff
seriously."
He admitted that he was arrogant about it and I told him that you
never see Valle or Choi screwing around and taking opponents lightly
regardless of who they are, especially in the semifinals of a Golfland
tournament.
>Other topics.
>
>You think its so easy to use dhalsim? WHy the hell did a Ryu/Rolento/Gen
>get #2 and #3 consistently in Sunnyvale and why didnt Dhalsim win the
>tournament in SHGL? After all, its so damn easy.
Let's see what I wrote:
"Dhalsim - Probably the easiest character for the lesser skilled
player to have success with"
'lesser skilled player'. This has nothing to do with you.
"It's the elite SF player who applies his knowledge to the 'easy to
use' A3 Dhalsim that seems to be causing a lot of the complaints"
'easy to use'. Notice the 'quotes' around that phrase. And also
notice I am merely conveying popular opinion here, not necessarily my
own opinion in that sentence.
>Playing Dhalsim has nothing to do with jumping on the bandwagon. Its
>called, I payed $10 or $20 to play in this fucking thing, and I am gonna
>use the best character I can so I can win money.
'jumping on the (Dhalsim) bandwagon' has been a phrase and thought
that has been thrown around this NG for a while now, especially in the
last week or so.
>I think the dumbest thing I saw was Zangief Vs Zangief. Bob, what are you
>dumb man? You paid the money to enter just to lose like that? If you want
>to ever win, you have to make better picks. Thats what dhalsim and rolento
>are all about (Smart picks).
You are not aware of the facts here.
Before my match with Wilson, I asked him if we were going to flip for
side and character. Both he and I knew that if he picked Dhalsim, I'd
choose Rolento and if I picked Zangief, he'd choose Dhalsim, so
instead he says to me 'let's just do Zangief vs Zangief" and I agreed
to this instead of just going counter character vs counter character.
He won the first game and I had never lost a Zangief vs Zangief match
on A3 before so my ego was bruised a bit and in my mind, I had to
stick with Zangief. It was then that I was informed that this was a
semi-final match and instead of a 2 out of 3 series, it was to be 3
out of 5. For the third game, I switched to Rolento, knowing that if
I stuck with Zangief any longer, even winning, Jason would most likely
switch to Dhalsim. If it was a 2 out of 3 series, I stick with
Zangief, realizing all I need is to upset his Dhalsim one game to win.
In a 3 out of 5 series, I have to switch to Rolento, despite the fact
that I have no strength in Rolento vs Zangief matches. My strength
with Rolento is against Dhalsim. Dhalsim is the only reason I ever
started playing Rolento on A3.
>I used Dhalsim on SF2, Champion EXCLUSIVELY, and Hyper and Super/Turbo as a
>counter character.
>I didnt play Sim on A2 cause he flat out sucked and I dont enter
>tournaments and waste my time not trying to win. People bitch I am a copy.
I haven't 'bitched' about anyone copying anyone. Direct this bitching
at someone who deserves it. James Chen started this thread and wanted
some responses and input. That's the ONLY reason I posted to this
thread at all.
> FUCK you, I played SIm before anybody, bottom line. Its not copying, its
>a damn character, if someone wants to play him fuck it!.
"I'm sure we'll see a large number of Dhalsims at Nationals. This is
going to be the big show for Street Fighter. Do anything to win, I
say... The California tournament scene just forces you to pull
out all the stops. You really can't blame or penalize them for taking
advantage of Dhalsim."
I specifically state that IMO no one should be blamed for taking
advantage of Dhalsim being a powerful character in A3.
My previous post was nowhere near being a personal attack on anyone.
Grow some thicker skin or something.
--
Bob Painter
black...@aznet.net
j...@my-dejanews.com
Airick 'Airshox Zaskar' <air...@geocities.com> wrote:
> BTW, does NEone know if Jap players are crazy over Dhaly as well? If not,
> what kinda characters are they into? Oh and there's a SFZ3 tounament being
> held in Hong Kong on the 25th of October, 10am till 6pm. Its an official
> Capcom event with the champ being sent to Jap (as usual) for more SFZ3
> matches! So is there NEone in this ng that will be turning up? Juz
> curious...
Japanese players rarely play dhalsim in arcades, although they somehow pop up
everywhere in tournaments. Dhalsim does consistently well, but doesn't win.
V-ism akuma and other V-ism characters win tournaments over here.
-Julien
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
j...@my-dejanews.com
MadDogG252
---
At least it's not Menudo.
Maddogg
Jack Lin a.k.a Zangief104
pick the easiest character and win tournaments. Nothing wrong with it!
And you say Rolento is the only character who can beat Dhalsim. WRONG!
Dhalsim can't do anything against No-ism characters. Even No-ism Zangief
can win Dhalsim, point is you gotta play very old school.
Don't get close, or I will SPD you.
Don't just stand there, or I will FAB you.
Don't play keepaway, I have a long guard meter and time is running out.
Jack Lin aka Zangief104
ni8...@hotmail.com
"Jack Lin a.k.a Zangief104" <jac...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Well, there is nothing wrong to see Dhalsim vs Dhalsim over and over. You
> pick the easiest character and win tournaments. Nothing wrong with it!
> And you say Rolento is the only character who can beat Dhalsim. WRONG!
> Dhalsim can't do anything against No-ism characters.
What ! is this a joke, even thou No-ism can't be juggled it doesn't mean that
Dhalsim just wins by using the new juggle system (it makes him better).
> Even No-ism Zangief
> can win Dhalsim, point is you gotta play very old school.
I just can tell you this, even thou Zangief is good in A3. Capcom never made
good enough to beat Dhalsim. Dhalsim gives Zangief a hard time, Zangief tries
to get close but he can't Dhalsim just beats his air game cleanly. On the
ground Dhalsim will just harass you with Yoga Fire and limb attacks to death.
A good just keeps a good Zangief away to win (actually probably everyone in
the game).
Anyone agree ?!
Dark Knight
"In a castle of pain, on a mountain of skulls I sat on a thrown of blood. What
was will be what is will be no more. "
>
> Don't get close, or I will SPD you.
> Don't just stand there, or I will FAB you.
> Don't play keepaway, I have a long guard meter and time is running out.
>
> Jack Lin aka Zangief104
>
>
--
"On a mountain of skulls, in a castle of pain I sate of a throws of blood what
was will be what is w
Jack Lin a.k.a Zangief104
work fucking HARD! This is street fighter common sense, fundamental!
Point is, my Zangief is just good enough to win Dhalsim, not 100%, but
50-50 means I am a dedicated Z player. You can't blame how good my
Zangief is...Actually Dhalsim is my 2nd best character at this game. I
abuse people when they waste my Zangief, Birdie, and Blanka.
Chocobo
> Absolutely everyone knows to beat a good Dhalsim with Zangief, you gotta
> work fucking HARD! This is street fighter common sense, fundamental!
>
> Point is, my Zangief is just good enough to win Dhalsim, not 100%, but
> 50-50 means I am a dedicated Z player.
50-50? Not hardly. I could say that everyone knows how to win 90% of the
time with Dhalsim against Zangief- you gotta work fucking HARD! If the
Zangief player has to put so much into beating relatively random Dhalsim
attacks just to win 50% of the time, then that doesn't mean that match is
50/50.
Tom Cannon
>In article <3636973F...@geocities.com>,
> Airick 'Airshox Zaskar' <air...@geocities.com> wrote:
>
>> BTW, does NEone know if Jap players are crazy over Dhaly as well? If not,
>> what kinda characters are they into? Oh and there's a SFZ3 tounament being
>> held in Hong Kong on the 25th of October, 10am till 6pm. Its an official
>> Capcom event with the champ being sent to Jap (as usual) for more SFZ3
>> matches! So is there NEone in this ng that will be turning up? Juz
>> curious...
>
>Japanese players rarely play dhalsim in arcades, although they somehow pop up
>everywhere in tournaments. Dhalsim does consistently well, but doesn't win.
>V-ism akuma and other V-ism characters win tournaments over here.
>
Which is weird, given that Jason Cole pretty much dismantled all the
V-ism characters he went up against in the last GL tournament. Maybe they
know something we don't.
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
j nelson
Tom Cannon wrote:
yeah they use v-sakura
Jack Lin a.k.a Zangief104
style. I have tried Dhalsim-Dhalsim game, I can win. I am going to
discover No-ism Blanka and A or No-ism Birdie this weekend.
However I never blast ur opinion that Dhalsim has BIG advantage against
Zangief and Dhalsim is da best....I admit it that shit. But why do you
blame my Zangief skill? U envy or what?
Jack Lin a.k.a Zangief104
Don't get close, or I will SPD you.
Don't just stand there, or I will FAB you.
Don't play keepaway, I have a long guard meter and time is running out.
Jack Lin aka Zangief104
"Maybe they know something we don't." That is why I bought Gamest Mook to
see how Japanese style is. As I promise I will post shitty stuff from the
Mook this weekend. Ex: Dan's 31-hit VC! Fun, fun, fun
> Tom Cannon
> web...@inked.com
>
>
Airick
> Tom Cannon wrote:
> > >
> > >Japanese players rarely play dhalsim in arcades, although they somehow pop up
> > >everywhere in tournaments. Dhalsim does consistently well, but doesn't win.
> > >V-ism akuma and other V-ism characters win tournaments over here.
> > >
> >
> > Which is weird, given that Jason Cole pretty much dismantled all the
> > V-ism characters he went up against in the last GL tournament. Maybe they
> > know something we don't.
> >
> > ---
> > Tom Cannon
> > web...@inked.com
>
> yeah they use v-sakura
Something to add about international players...
Hong Kong players are *really* into Oro in SF3... coz a guy won the SF3 tourney with
that weirdo Oro and it sorta juz burns all over the place! :)
For Zero3, they mostly pick shoto characters but they're by no means weak with their
X and V characters such as Ryu, Ken and Akuma... with the occasional Balrog and
Rolento...
Post those Gamest Mook stuff soon too Jack Lin (Zangief104) dying to see whats on
it... unless I hop down to the Jap store later and see if its available there! ;)
Small note to Kian Tat --- Hey what are the more popular characters being used here
in Singapore? I keep seeing shotos being used here with some Mikas and Dhalsims and
Zangiefs and Balrogs... but why doesn't NEone play Sodom and Juni like me? Are they
really that bad? ;) Or useless for that matter... :) Mail me soon Tat!
Airick out!
The SFZAC-X (http://members.xoom.com/sfzac)
Street Fighter: Anime Cartoonz, Manga Comix, Soundtrax, Movie Clips, SF CD Reviews,
Movelists and more!
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Airick <air...@geocities.com> wrote:
>j nelson wrote:
>> Tom Cannon wrote:
>
>Something to add about international players...
>Hong Kong players are *really* into Oro in SF3... coz a guy won the SF3 tourney with
>that weirdo Oro and it sorta juz burns all over the place! :)
Oro could combo 5 snots at once, if he cornered his opponent.
Some of his shit was *that* good. I don't think 1 tourney is the only
incentive there =)
--
BionicTuna
>tourney with
>that weirdo Oro and it sorta juz burns all over the place! :)
Oro is one of the most original (and funny) characters to grace SF!
Thats how to do a old fightin' geezer
-jim-
Outshined
ever) SF2 WW World Championship was won by a guy who controlled Dhalsim
throughout the whole tournament...
dbarnes
Airick 'Airshox Zaskar' wrote:
> Thanx for the input on the evergrowing Dhalsim popularity over at your
>
> counrty. Down here in Singapore, there area couple of Dhalsim users
> but
> aren't really good enuff to be considered pros. I've only seen one
> *really*
> good Dhaly player and he was like zoning and sliding and controling
> the
> game. As for whether he's overpowered or not, I'm in no position to
> comment
> coz I ain't a Dhaly fan. :) Maybe if they juz weaken his damage
> level...
> might've been better off... NEway, why not get a petition from all the
>
> players around the globe (Jap players included) and send it over to
> Capcom
> to churn out a Zero3 umm... Second Impact? Whatever! ;)
> BTW, does NEone know if Jap players are crazy over Dhaly as well? If
> not,
> what kinda characters are they into? Oh and there's a SFZ3 tounament
> being
> held in Hong Kong on the 25th of October, 10am till 6pm. Its an
> official
> Capcom event with the champ being sent to Jap (as usual) for more SFZ3
>
> matches! So is there NEone in this ng that will be turning up? Juz
> curious...
> Lastly, wish U all the best in this anti-Dhaly thingy James! ;D
> Airick out!
> The new SFZAC-X - http://members.xoom.com/sfzac
Outshined
SF2WW to the best character in SFA3, but how he's gone from having the
worse victory speech to the best one, also...
SF2WW - "I will meditate and then destroy you." - Oooh, scary.
SFA2 - "Pain is a state of mind, and I don't mind your pain." - Classic,
surely a contender for the top ten one on one victory speeches...
Chocobo
> Interesting how Dhalsim has not only gone from being the worse character in
> SF2WW to the best character in SFA3, but how he's gone from having the
> worse victory speech to the best one, also...
Um, Dhalsim was #1 in SF2.
I.J.Finster
>Um, Dhalsim was #1 in SF2.
Ever heard of Guile? :)
Fin
Outshined
Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<363C06FF...@mindspring.com>...
> Outshined wrote:
>
> > Interesting how Dhalsim has not only gone from being the worse
character in
> > SF2WW to the best character in SFA3, but how he's gone from having the
> > worse victory speech to the best one, also...
>
> Um, Dhalsim was #1 in SF2.
>
>
Not against a half decent player he wasn't. Track down a dusty old SF2WW
cabinet and pray God throws some half capable opposition your way.
Chocobo
You sir, are a scrub. I suppose that Guile was also a contender for the top
spot so some people might say Dhalsim isn't number 1, but you said he was the
worst which is just completely wrong.
Outshined
>
> > Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
> > <363C06FF...@mindspring.com>...
> > >
> "You sir, are a scrub." -
Libelous statement, in fact I'm one of this most open minded/adventurous
one on one players you will ever come across. I always make a note of
experimenting with new characters and pride myself on developing new
tactics / combos. However, unlike you I don't let my passion for the game
cloud my judgement...
DHALSIM IN SF2WW SUCKS!
Outshined
then who WAS the worst character?
n00body
Outshined wrote in message <01be0597$679b8ac0$745dac3e@dog42>...
>But if you're that adamant that Dhalsim was #1 in SF2WW...
>then who WAS the worst character?
>
>
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BLANKA
Ken Comeforo
>[12k of "DOWN" snipped]
Quick, somebody reply to n00body's brilliant message -- make sure you
include the whole text, and only add one witty line at the bottom.
Ken
n00body
Ken Comeforo wrote in message <71i6f7$c4g$1...@camel25.mindspring.com>...
But how do you think Blanka fared in SF2WW?
I say either him or
E Honda
Kevin
The worst character in Classic is arguably Ken/Ryu....They lose to
everyone..but they have a chance vs. everyone....They are one of the
best tickers in classic...but pretty much, they lose all match ups..
David Wright
know VERY little about WW.
SF2Freak
robo...@my-dejanews.com
"Outshined" <Su...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> But if you're that adamant that Dhalsim was #1 in SF2WW...
> then who WAS the worst character?
>
Whoever said that Dhalsim was the worst character is on so much crack. Blanka
was arguably the worst character. Here are MY rankings:
Dhalsim
Guile (not my much, arguably a tie)
Chun li
Ryu/Ken (no one believes me, but they have a super easy to land cross-up 3
hitter that does over 50%, may dizzy (thus not a true TOD)) --but only in the
version where Guile had the magic throw.
Zangief
Honda
Blanka
But, you get into problems. A properly spaced Blanka or Chun li (more
Blanka, then Chun) can beat a Dhalsim who has no experience against the
other. One small mistake, and Guile beats Dhalsim. If Dhalsim gets one
slide in, it's pretty much over, since he has the hardest ticks to get out
of. If Chun gets a properly spaced knife kick, Guile better not flash kick,
but it's hard to keep track of that distance when the j.short can be pulled
out at any time to snuff everything that Guile has. A properly timed dp will
put Sim away, then just throw all day, or turtle and make Sim come to you
(which isn't that hard). By all rights, Zangief should be at the bottom, but
if Z can land one throw or get close after one knock down, game over, and
that's to anyone.
Dale
JChensor
I think this whole Anti-Dhalsim campaign is pretty much over. Through the
arguments of a lot of people, I think I have concluded that trying to
implement a handicap on Dhalsim for post-Nationals tournaments would be too
difficult. For one, it would be difficult to determine who it is fair against
and who it isn't (should the handicap be implemented against Sodom or not?
How about Gen? etc.). Secondly, it is unfair to those who did use Dhjalsim
their whole lives. If they lost using L-ism Dhalsim, they would more than
likely complain about the restriction, and everyone wouldn't be happy. So in
the end, I don't think there's anything we can do to weaken Dhalsim, simply
accept him and learn how to play Rolento.
I would like to keep it clear, however, that, although I will admit that
I hate Dhalsim (especially X-Dhalsim), the main goal of this Anti-Dhalsim
campaign was _not_ specifically working to eliminate Dhalsim from the game as
a good character, its main goal was to promote character variety. I have
always wished for a Street FIghter where a player can pick any character and
win, and not be forced to pick certain characters because one other character
dominates too much. But it has happened on ALL Stret Fighters, from Classic
to Turbo to Alpha 1 to Alpha 2 to 2nd Impact to Alpha 3...there has always
been one owr two characters that WILL affect the character choice of others.
Thus, part of Street Fighter tournaments has always been, as Schaefer put it,
"smart picks." That is fine, and I'll have to accept that my utopian dream of
a Stret Fighter game with all characters having a real chance of winning will
never exist.
So I will learn to fight against Dhalsim with the most suited character
for the job, either Rolento or Gen, or just learn Dhalsim vs. Dhalsim (groan).
My belief that Dhalsim is still a total joke has not changed (I played
X-Dhalsim at my school just a while ago and literally killed everyone by Short
Sliding them to death. I held Down and hit Short until I won, Jabbing if they
jumped. It was stupid. And it wasn't against losers, it was against
semi-decent players) but I will have to learn to combat this joke of a
character, rather than avoiding it like I did on ALL of the other Street
Fighters (I hated Tengu Stone in SF3, and never bothered to find a way to
decently fight Oro, and paid for it at the UCLA tournament; I hated Chun Li so
much in A2, I never learned a really decent character against her and paid for
it in several A2 tournaments, etc.). I'll take a different path a learn how
to fight Dhalsim with the most suited character for the job now.
So in conclusion, there will be no successful way of handicapping a
character like Dhalsim. Too many problems arise with it, and it will never be
an acceptible option to a lot of people, including those who don't like
Dhalsim (they just think it's copping out if you can't find a way to beat him
legitimately). So, although I don't mind and encourage the continuing
discussions, I don't think there is much more point talking about Dhalsim's
dominance, except for those who just haven't seen it yet and are not sure of
why Dhalsim is so good.
Thank you all for your quality inputs and posts (and thanks, I guess,
even for those lack-of-quality flames!!). Thanks to all those who offered
good ideas and observations, including Bob Painter, Tom Cannon, and Jason
Nelson (though I do wish, being a top player, Jason would have contributed
more to the topic, since I would think his observations of being an actual
Dhalsim player would have been valuable). I might be back, one of these days,
to bring forth yet another strange discussion topic for people to argue and
flame over. :-) Until then, talk to you all later.
- James Chen aka JChensor
HateArrogance
>In article <cpughF1...@netcom.com>, Chris Pugh <cp...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>As you can see only half of those matches
>>even had dhalsim in them, anyways point is if dhalsim was that easy to
>>play then we would all be using him.
>>
>
>Dude, we are all using him. That's the entire point. Let's look at
>some of the the top players and who they all play:
Small mistake. Tom, you aren't a tourney winning kinda guy, so no need
to say "we".
>
>Jason Cole - Dhalsim, Charlie
>Alex Valle - Rolento, Ryu, etc.
>John Choi - Gen, Ryu, etc.
>Jason Nelson - Dhalsim, Rolento, Ryu
>Mike Watson - Dhalsim, ...
>Jeff Shaefer - Dhalsim, ...
>James Romedy - Dhalsim, ...
>Graham Wolfe - Dhalsim, ...
>Alex Wolfe - Dhalsim, ...
>
>
>Surprise! Almost everyone uses Dhalsim! And guess what? None of these
>people played Dhalsim in Alpha2, except Jason Cole.
>
>---
>Tom Cannon
>web...@inked.com
>
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
<robo...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>In article <01be0597$679b8ac0$745dac3e@dog42>,
> "Outshined" <Su...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>Dhalsim
>Guile (not my much, arguably a tie)
>Chun li
>Ryu/Ken (no one believes me, but they have a super easy to land cross-up 3
>hitter that does over 50%, may dizzy (thus not a true TOD)) --but only in the
>version where Guile had the magic throw.
It doesn't save them; just crossover block or antiair, not too
hard.
>Zangief
Definitely better then RyuKen. SPD, and then repeat tick Chun,
Blanka, Sim to death. To easy (though in practice he could never do it to
Sim)...
>Honda
>Blanka
>
>But, you get into problems. A properly spaced Blanka or Chun li (more
>Blanka, then Chun) can beat a Dhalsim who has no experience against the
>other. One small mistake, and Guile beats Dhalsim. If Dhalsim gets one
>slide in, it's pretty much over, since he has the hardest ticks to get out
It's easy for Guile. FK out, not hard to time at all in classic,
store up while being thrown the first time. Also easy to SPD through, and
DP.
>of. If Chun gets a properly spaced knife kick, Guile better not flash kick,
>but it's hard to keep track of that distance when the j.short can be pulled
>out at any time to snuff everything that Guile has. A properly timed dp will
There isn't one for the short FK, basically.
>put Sim away, then just throw all day, or turtle and make Sim come to you
>(which isn't that hard). By all rights, Zangief should be at the bottom, but
>if Z can land one throw or get close after one knock down, game over, and
>that's to anyone.
Nah, only blanka and sim can't get out of those. Just DP the standing
short, low jab, whatever he uses to repeat, or just DP the SPD as a
reversal, not that hard.
--
sch...@hotmail.com
> Umm....dhalsim and guile were top tier. If you think otherwise, you
> know VERY little about WW.
no kidding, either of those fighters can kick but if played right. of course
that could be said about every streetfighter (even zangief and birdy)
Tom Cannon
HateArrogance <Su...@d.com> wrote:
>On 27 Oct 1998 15:25:15 -0800, web...@best.com (Tom Cannon) wrote:
>
>>In article <cpughF1...@netcom.com>, Chris Pugh <cp...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>As you can see only half of those matches
>>>even had dhalsim in them, anyways point is if dhalsim was that easy to
>>>play then we would all be using him.
>>>
>>
>>Dude, we are all using him. That's the entire point. Let's look at
>>some of the the top players and who they all play:
>
>Small mistake. Tom, you aren't a tourney winning kinda guy, so no need
>to say "we".
>
Um...who are you? This is a pretty petty comment, so in the tradition
of agsf2 I'll reply in kind.
No dumbshit, it's not a mistake. Even "intermediate" or "2nd tier"
players are picking up Dhalsim (especially X) because he requires so
little effort to win compared to most other characters. Notice that I am
not in my own list of "some of the top players." The "we" refers to SF
players at large.
So there =P
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
robo...@my-dejanews.com
spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu (Shaun Patrick Mcisaac) wrote:
> In article <71njo1$tsq$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> <robo...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> >In article <01be0597$679b8ac0$745dac3e@dog42>,
> > "Outshined" <Su...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >Dhalsim
> >Guile (not my much, arguably a tie)
> >Chun li
> >Ryu/Ken (no one believes me, but they have a super easy to land cross-up 3
> >hitter that does over 50%, may dizzy (thus not a true TOD)) --but only in the
> >version where Guile had the magic throw.
>
> It doesn't save them; just crossover block or antiair, not too
> hard.
That's what people were doing when I was playing. They'd just block all the
hits, wait for me to come down from the blckd dp, and combo away. But, since
this combo is super-easy, you can forgo the dp and pound away at the s.shorts
until dizzy (it happens a lot: cross-up, buncha c.shorts, dizzy, do
3-hitter, pretty much over). If Ryu or Ken get that close, it's to their
advantage (except vs. Guile and Dhalsim, since, imo, they were able to
reversal throw better). If the cross-up is blckd, and then the subsequent
c.shorts are blckd, then low short into throw. That's a very hard tick to
get out of, since you can always add another c.short to throw off the
opponent's reversal throw timing). After the throw, s.hk to prevent any
wake-up attacks (except for the dp), repeat tick. W/Guile you had to be
really sure of your spacing, b/c the wake-up fk will beat the hk.
> >Zangief
>
> Definitely better then RyuKen. SPD, and then repeat tick Chun,
> Blanka, Sim to death. To easy (though in practice he could never do it to
> Sim)...
Well, I don't know... I didn't play much Zangief back then, but RyuKen could
get away from his ticks by wake-up dp (as you said, infra below). Sim would
never let Z get anywhere close. Chun-li didn't have that option, and is
forced to jump away all day. One mistake by Blanka (which is pretty easy),
and Z has the tick throw, jump spd, repeat...
> >Honda
> >Blanka
> >
> >But, you get into problems. A properly spaced Blanka or Chun li (more
> >Blanka, then Chun) can beat a Dhalsim who has no experience against the
> >other. One small mistake, and Guile beats Dhalsim. If Dhalsim gets one
> >slide in, it's pretty much over, since he has the hardest ticks to get out
> It's easy for Guile. FK out, not hard to time at all in classic,
> store up while being thrown the first time. Also easy to SPD through, and
> DP.
The way this match-up usually worked out is this: Dhalsim takes small lead
by turtling away (i.e. usuing limbs, fbs, whatever to keep Guile at bay).
Guile, after taking some hits or blckd dmg finally gets in. At this point,
Dhalsim has the lead. Sac-throw by Dhalsim leads to the ticking game. Once
Dhalsim gets burned by eating a wake-up fk, (or whoever he's playing against)
then Dhalsim backs off, starts the zoning/spacing pattern all over again.
The opponent's reversal only hits when Dhalsim press Fr or Str to throw. If
he doesn't press, the wake-up attack whiffs. IIRC, the spacing was such that
a whiffed attack will be subject to throw again. Besides, wake-up games
always favor the person not waking up.
Well, that's all I got to say. Flame away :)
Dale
sol t kim
the game) makes one mistake against guile he dies, while guile
could afford to make a few mistakes. there is a WW machine right by where
i live, and i realized now just how CHEAP guile is!
jab x5->dizzy->jump in fierce->jab x7 or 8->redizzy-> anything->death
just ask shaun. yeah, you had an opening for a couching jab, of course
you deserved to die. well, overall, not many mistakes were tolerated in
that game, a skilled gief player could turn a blocked jab into a win
(jab ->spd x 3), for example. i would still say ryu/ken were the worst
althoug most versile.chun-li's better than most people think!
--
robo...@my-dejanews.com
sol...@midway.uchicago.edu (sol t kim) wrote:
> i would place guile above dhalsim because if dahlsim (actually anyone in
> the game) makes one mistake against guile he dies, while guile
> could afford to make a few mistakes. there is a WW machine right by where
> i live, and i realized now just how CHEAP guile is!
Really? Is that in Woodward? I haven't been there in a while. Is it the
one w/the magic throw on it? I found one in Bloomingdale, but I didn't get a
chance to play it, maybe next weekend? But I digress...
> jab x5->dizzy->jump in fierce->jab x7 or 8->redizzy-> anything->death
After the first dizzy, yes, I understand, you're pretty much dead (and that
goes for most everyone, but most easily for Guile). When I first started
playing SF, and I truly thought that if there was anything cheap it was
Guile. Then I went to UIUC and got demolished by Dhalsim. Then I heard how
their Dhalsim's beat everyone, including ALL Guiles where I normally play
(Galaxy World aka Gala North). They won, mainly, b/c Gala North _does not_
throw, and UIUC throw like its their job. If you experiment w/the ticking
game, Dhalsim wins, and this is what I base my rankings on. Guile isn't that
good of a ticker. Imo, Guile is below Blanka, Zangief, RyuKen (the latter
can throw off a c.forward, which Guile can't --at least I haven't seen it
done, and I haven't been able to do it). Plus, Dhalsim's defense is
nigh-imprenatable. But, you're right, one mistake, and it's pretty much
toast, but I still don't think that making mistakes w/Dhalsim is that
easy/common.
Oh, those above repeating jab combos were nothing (except that it dizzied),
but what about Guile's 4-fr-hitter? On some machines it did like 40% dmg
easy, and starred [dizzied, but not re-dizzy]! Two of those, and you got
like a blck of energy left.
> just ask shaun. yeah, you had an opening for a couching jab, of course
> you deserved to die. well, overall, not many mistakes were tolerated in
oh so true!
> that game, a skilled gief player could turn a blocked jab into a win
> (jab ->spd x 3), for example. i would still say ryu/ken were the worst
> althoug most versile.chun-li's better than most people think!
I don't think that ryuken were that bad, and I rank Chun-li third overall.
So, I could live w/a tie for 1st: Guile & Dhali; a distant 2nd: Chun; good
God down there 3rd: everyone else; holy shit dead last: Blanka :)
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
<robo...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>In article <F1vzw...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
> spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu (Shaun Patrick Mcisaac) wrote:
>> In article <71njo1$tsq$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>> <robo...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>> >In article <01be0597$679b8ac0$745dac3e@dog42>,
>> > "Outshined" <Su...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>That's what people were doing when I was playing. They'd just block all the
>hits, wait for me to come down from the blckd dp, and combo away. But, since
Crossover, if they block, throw. Sorry but it is not even close
to that easy.
>> >Zangief
>> Definitely better then RyuKen. SPD, and then repeat tick Chun,
>> Blanka, Sim to death. To easy (though in practice he could never do it to
>
>Well, I don't know... I didn't play much Zangief back then, but RyuKen could
>get away from his ticks by wake-up dp (as you said, infra below). Sim would
>never let Z get anywhere close. Chun-li didn't have that option, and is
>forced to jump away all day. One mistake by Blanka (which is pretty easy),
>and Z has the tick throw, jump spd, repeat...
You can't jump out of a WW tick, so chun dies upon getting hit.
That could be said of pretty much anyone thou with WW's redizzies.
>The way this match-up usually worked out is this: Dhalsim takes small lead
>by turtling away (i.e. usuing limbs, fbs, whatever to keep Guile at bay).
>Guile, after taking some hits or blckd dmg finally gets in. At this point,
>Dhalsim has the lead. Sac-throw by Dhalsim leads to the ticking game. Once
>Dhalsim gets burned by eating a wake-up fk, (or whoever he's playing against)
>then Dhalsim backs off, starts the zoning/spacing pattern all over again.
>The opponent's reversal only hits when Dhalsim press Fr or Str to throw. If
>he doesn't press, the wake-up attack whiffs. IIRC, the spacing was such that
>a whiffed attack will be subject to throw again. Besides, wake-up games
>always favor the person not waking up.
>
>Well, that's all I got to say. Flame away :)
>Dale
The problem is that Dhal won't get an early lead against guile.
SB beats YF, and what else is dhal going to do? If a limb gets FKed, he
won't be able to get in on guile. so he throws FYs. but this is crap
cause SB beats or matches it easy.
But guile can get in on dhal, and give him a headache, n/m
glitches.
--
sol t kim
>Really? Is that in Woodward? I haven't been there in a while. Is it the
>one w/the magic throw on it? I found one in Bloomingdale, but I didn't get a
>chance to play it, maybe next weekend? But I digress...
>
pretty unpopular.
>> jab x5->dizzy->jump in fierce->jab x7 or 8->redizzy-> anything->death
>After the first dizzy, yes, I understand, you're pretty much dead (and that
>goes for most everyone, but most easily for Guile). When I first started
>playing SF, and I truly thought that if there was anything cheap it was
>Guile. Then I went to UIUC and got demolished by Dhalsim. Then I heard how
>their Dhalsim's beat everyone, including ALL Guiles where I normally play
>(Galaxy World aka Gala North). They won, mainly, b/c Gala North _does not_
>throw, and UIUC throw like its their job. If you experiment w/the ticking
>game, Dhalsim wins, and this is what I base my rankings on. Guile isn't that
>good of a ticker. Imo, Guile is below Blanka, Zangief, RyuKen (the latter
>can throw off a c.forward, which Guile can't --at least I haven't seen it
>done, and I haven't been able to do it). Plus, Dhalsim's defense is
>nigh-imprenatable. But, you're right, one mistake, and it's pretty much
>toast, but I still don't think that making mistakes w/Dhalsim is that
>easy/common.
ticking is one of the least impressive of guile's tricks though. and he
could escape dhalsim's tick if he had enough time (but yes, it's hard)
>Oh, those above repeating jab combos were nothing (except that it dizzied),
>but what about Guile's 4-fr-hitter?
yeah,right. you have to jump in for 4-fr-hitter, no one's gonna let you
do that. on the other hand, it's easy to get a jab in close (except
dhal)..and it not only dizzies (look above), it redizzies!
>On some machines it did like 40% dmg easy, and starred [dizzied, but not
>re-dizzy]! Two of those, and you got like a blck of energy left.
believe or not, it fairly often did redizzy
> > just ask shaun. yeah, you had an opening for a couching jab, of course
>> you deserved to die. well, overall, not many mistakes were tolerated in
>> that game, a skilled gief player could turn a blocked jab into a win
>> (jab ->spd x 3), for example. i would still say ryu/ken were the worst
>> althoug most versile.chun-li's better than most people think!
>
>I don't think that ryuken were that bad, and I rank Chun-li third overall.
>So, I could live w/a tie for 1st: Guile & Dhali; a distant 2nd: Chun; good
>God down there 3rd: everyone else; holy shit dead last: Blanka :)
>
>Dale
>
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after guile, dhalsim and the third place (arguebly chun-li, or gief),
everyone just got slaughtered that it didn't much matter who the last
place was. although it might be amusing to know that it was blanka who won
the world tournament.
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