Just what we need. More combos...
Chuck Cochems
Now I am realy getting annoyed. The famous perfectly timed jump-in is
reasonably fair, but now things are too much. Basically, an exxpert
player with this knowledge will scare so many people away that it will
hurt the game. When someone could wake up with a DP like in CE, there
was comeback ability. You always had to watch out. Some person could
somehow get out that DP. Someone who knows "meaty comboes",
distinguished from perfectly timed attacks in that they enable new
comboes to be done or abnormally extend block stun, can whip someone with
no chance of recovery. The timing on them is TOO easy to do at SSF2
speed, by your accounts. While the perfectly timed jump leaves little
margin for error, it takes less skill to learn the ground meaty attacks
for some characters. Meaty ticks are also MUCH more difficult to
counterthrow. With a meaty tick, the distance can be closed after the
hit when it could not be done to a standing atack. The person can, if
their throw range is bigger, then easily reach the optimum range and
throw you. Not only that, a mety ticks timing can be varied ever so
slightly to keep the counterthrower from getting a 50% ratio. This mind
game tick style can give an effective 80% win ratio for ticks. To win
against the meaty ticker, the person would have to not only time it
right, but figure out what the timing is for each individual tick. Those
few microseconds make all the difference, and a ticker using this can put
the ticking game in his own favor. People can't wake-up throw, but
the meaty ticker can easily get a throw on you. You can't counterattack
either, but you get ticked if you block. The poor person who has no
knowledge of meaty attack theory will conclude he cannot get better, and
give the game up. In my opinion, the perfectly timed jump in should
stay, since all those ticks can be reversed with fair enough consistency
(50%). However, people ahould be able to wake up throw someone who is
foolishly standing next to the enemy. The CE 100% surefire wake-up DP
was clearly a wrong, as then Ryu always dominates. (even Dhalsim needs to
constantly wait for openings.) However the easy to time ground attack
goes too far back the other direction. The fallen player, no matter how
far ahead, is at too much of a disadvantage here.
--
zap...@camelot.bradley.edu
Sorry, no .signature.funny today. Maybe next time!
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Chuck Cochems <zap...@camelot.bradley.edu> wrote:
>
>Now I am realy getting annoyed. The famous perfectly timed jump-in is
>reasonably fair, but now things are too much. Basically, an exxpert
>player with this knowledge will scare so many people away that it will
>hurt the game. When someone could wake up with a DP like in CE, there
Everyone at Sunnyvale knows it, and SF2 is pretty popular there. =)
>was comeback ability. You always had to watch out. Some person could
>somehow get out that DP. Someone who knows "meaty comboes",
>distinguished from perfectly timed attacks in that they enable new
>comboes to be done or abnormally extend block stun, can whip someone with
>no chance of recovery. The timing on them is TOO easy to do at SSF2
>speed, by your accounts.
Three things
1) Meaty combos don't affect block stun in the slightest.
2) 'no chance of recovery' is exaggerating. All you have to do is
block and you're safe. If your opponent decides to tick, you're
in a bit of trouble, but that's life.
3) The timing on this is _NOT_ easy. It's counter-intuitive in a way;
you have to attack a touch earlier than what your intincts tell you,
but not too much earlier. Also, the penalty for a missed meaty hit
is a throw or DP in your face.
>While the perfectly timed jump leaves little
>margin for error, it takes less skill to learn the ground meaty attacks
>for some characters. Meaty ticks are also MUCH more difficult to
>counterthrow. With a meaty tick, the distance can be closed after the
>hit when it could not be done to a standing atack. The person can, if
>their throw range is bigger, then easily reach the optimum range and
>throw you. Not only that, a mety ticks timing can be varied ever so
>slightly to keep the counterthrower from getting a 50% ratio. This mind
>game tick style can give an effective 80% win ratio for ticks. To win
>against the meaty ticker, the person would have to not only time it
>right, but figure out what the timing is for each individual tick. Those
>few microseconds make all the difference, and a ticker using this can put
>the ticking game in his own favor.
Yep, isn't it GREAT! Getting knocked down now has a PENALTY! >=)
BTW, you're dead wrong about the timing on counterthrowing. Since you're
_right_ next to the person on the ground, you've got to either stick with
your combo or throw right away. Trying to adjust the timing will result
in you getting thrown.
>People can't wake-up throw, but
>the meaty ticker can easily get a throw on you. You can't counterattack
>either, but you get ticked if you block. The poor person who has no
>knowledge of meaty attack theory will conclude he cannot get better, and
>give the game up. In my opinion, the perfectly timed jump in should
>stay, since all those ticks can be reversed with fair enough consistency
>(50%). However, people ahould be able to wake up throw someone who is
>foolishly standing next to the enemy. The CE 100% surefire wake-up DP
>was clearly a wrong, as then Ryu always dominates. (even Dhalsim needs to
>constantly wait for openings.) However the easy to time ground attack
>goes too far back the other direction. The fallen player, no matter how
>far ahead, is at too much of a disadvantage here.
Well, you're assuming superhuman reflexes on the part of the attacker
here. You generally don't have time to see if the first hit is blocked
before you complete the combo.
You're absolutely right that the fallen player is at a disadvantage,
but hey, it's a rough game. This one wrinkle does not effect game
_balance_ all that much. It's like when people first learned to throw;
the first guy who learned it beat the crap out of everyone else. As
more people figured it out, things returned to normal. I first saw
this at Sunnyvale Golfland, where nearly _everyone_ knew it and used it
at every opportunity. The matchs there weren't determined by the
first knockdown or anything outrageous like that. It's a new strategy,
that's all.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Lee Saito
: Now I am realy getting annoyed. The famous perfectly timed jump-in is
: reasonably fair, but now things are too much. Basically, an exxpert
Geez, here we go again...
: somehow get out that DP. Someone who knows "meaty comboes",
: distinguished from perfectly timed attacks in that they enable new
: comboes to be done or abnormally extend block stun, can whip someone with
: no chance of recovery. The timing on them is TOO easy to do at SSF2
: speed, by your accounts. While the perfectly timed jump leaves little
^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
I guess this means Chuck hasn't tried it...I haven't tried it either...
Chuck, wanna get together so I can try it on you? ;)
Think about it in terms of real fighting...if you got knocked down, who
would have the advantage...the attacker, or you, who is flat on your
back...
This from the guy who posted "True Cheapness"...geez...
--
--------------...@camelot.bradley.edu------------------------
Remember: Friends don't let friends eat "cheese omelets" on airplanes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caine Schneider
between the kick and throw. Crouching Forward/throw ticks are good too,
but they leave something to be desired because you are too far away.
In Super, trying to counter a 'prevent-an-attack' move will get you
dizzy much easier than just countering a regular type of attack.
But in any case, if you are trying a move reversal, you'd better get
it, 'cause if you get comboed, you are going to be dizzy.
There is always something new in the game of SF2 (in the same version,
too, unlike some other games). That is the interest for me, plus it
is a quarter... 8)
_____________________________________
caine schneider cai...@ncsa.uiuc.edu
Chuck Cochems
To person claiming that the timing is no more difficult to counterthrow..
Evidently, you didn't read carefully enough. By varing his connect time
with the attack, he can keep the tickee guessing! He can do the attack
as early as possible, he can do it a milisecond later, or later stil, and
still be immune. Although block stun is unchanged, people will be
attempting to work by how soon after the person finishes the attack.
Block stun is constant, but the time from start of attack to end of block
stun is NOT! By varying this, impossible with a standard tick, the
person must be truly exceptional. These slight variatons will make the
tickee press too soon or too late. With jab-jab-throw, the timing is
always the SAME to counterthrow. With a meaty tick, this is not true.
I submit that getting knocked down with the discovery of this strategy
has TOO much of a penalty now. I consider perfect jumpins fair, as they
are difficult to time, and difficult to tick after. Jump ticks are more
counterthrowable than meaty ticks, which have a more random element in them.
Un DPable jump in=fair.. balances play..
Dang near impossible to counterthrow meaty tick= enough to scare even
non-masters away... I think if someone is standing next to you when you
get up, they deserve to be thrown. They should have done a jump in. The
jump in is the answer to stopping throws..
I bet even an accomplished counterthrower would be ticked mercillessly in
Sunnyvale and not get many counterthrows... it is the tickee that
requires the superhuman judgement to get the counterthrow in this
situation.
At least it must be conceded that meaty attacks are more difficult on HF...
--
zap...@camelot.bradley.edu
This sigdskbv&^&^$Dsb8&$*$*dgi%&D^BA*&DG&$%
.signature FILE CORRUPTED!!!!!!
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Chuck Cochems <zap...@camelot.bradley.edu> wrote:
>
>To person claiming that the timing is no more difficult to counterthrow..
>
>Evidently, you didn't read carefully enough. By varing his connect time
>with the attack, he can keep the tickee guessing! He can do the attack
>as early as possible, he can do it a milisecond later, or later stil, and
>still be immune. Although block stun is unchanged, people will be
>attempting to work by how soon after the person finishes the attack.
>Block stun is constant, but the time from start of attack to end of block
>stun is NOT! By varying this, impossible with a standard tick, the
>person must be truly exceptional. These slight variatons will make the
>tickee press too soon or too late. With jab-jab-throw, the timing is
>always the SAME to counterthrow. With a meaty tick, this is not true.
I don't know about you, but I use the 'tick' sound of me blocking a hit
as an audible cue. A certain time after the 'tick', I go for a
counterthrow. Using this, your argument is shot.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Benjamin Louis Hayek
>By varying this, impossible with a standard tick, the
>person must be truly exceptional.
>These slight variatons will make the
>tickee press too soon or too late. With jab-jab-throw, the timing is
>always the SAME to counterthrow. With a meaty tick, this is not true.
>I bet even an accomplished counterthrower would be ticked mercillessly in
>Sunnyvale and not get many counterthrows... it is the tickee that
>requires the superhuman judgement to get the counterthrow in this
>situation.
Chuck, you're not quite as smart as you think you are. Meaty attacks
do have a wide range of attack time, but they are certainly not as
large as you'd like. You cannot say, "Well, I think I'll do my meaty
attack 2.4 milliseconds later than the last one, as to fool my opponent."
I'm sorry, but you'll be lucky as hell to get the same timing twice in
a row. On the other hand, counterthrowing as you get up is very much
the same every time. With the difficulty being more in the hands of the
attacker, the defender has much more of an advantage. It takes a real
fool to be fooled by this trick more than once, anyway.
And I bet that an accomplished counterthrower would NOT be ticked
mercillessly in Sunyvale. Who's to say which one of us is right?
Ben.
Chuck Cochems
Sorry, but I must answer new objections here. I neve said a master who
has complete understanding of theory can't beat a meaty tick. I
specifically said that non-masters would find themselves loosing very
badly. Many people simply are visually oriented. The game may not MAKE
sound. The speaker may be broken. The audio cue mentioned by some can't
be counted on.
Accomplished des not mean master. If someone can beat the jab-jb-throw
easy, then they are accomplished. A master can do better than 50%
against any non-master, and even most masters (throw priority given to
tickee, of course!). But someone who can reliably deal with jab-jab
throw can't fight a meaty tick as well. I have stated that meaty ticks
are the most difficult. They are not uncounterable, but jump ticks epend
on the attack being a DP stopper, requiring a fixed timing. it CAN'T be
varied.
And, the non-tick aspect also comes into play.
Huy T. Nguyen
Chuck Cochems <zap...@camelot.bradley.edu> wrote:
>
(Stuff about ticking off "meaty" combos deleted)
That puts a prime importance on not getting put on your back doesn't it?
Positioning and spacing attacks become all that more vital. Mess up and you're
on your back in a very compromising position. So you'll have to improve your
game won't you. I don't know about you, but that's what I thought SF was all
about. Survival of those who can grasp all the nuances of the game. What am
I suppose to do? Hold back for every person I consider less-skilled?
I go back to the belief that if you got thrown when you weren't dizzy, you
could have thrown your opponent back. It might be unfamiliar now but if you
can't adapt, then maybe the game isn't for you. And if you think it's so hard,
maybe you should incorporate it into your strategy.
--
-- Huy Nguyen (Huyster) Internet: huy...@seas.gwu.edu --
"I'm just an ordinary guy. I happen to be brighter than you; I'm a better
athlete; I'm an aspiring writer, artist, and ex-musician; and to many a lady
I am her hero. Other than that, I'm just like you."
Eu-Ming Lee
>Now I am realy getting annoyed. The famous perfectly timed jump-in is
>reasonably fair, but now things are too much. Basically, an exxpert
>player with this knowledge will scare so many people away that it will
>hurt the game. When someone could wake up with a DP like in CE, there
>was comeback ability. You always had to watch out. Some person could
Actually, a wake-up DP favors a defensive strategy, whereas well-timed
attacks favor an offensive strategy. Once your opponents become
accustomed to these attacks, the game returns to its normal balance
of offensive/defensive strategy. In Super, the defensive strategy
prevails because the slow speed allows opponents to be kept at a
medium/long distance. These kind of attacks are NOT revolutionary.
Once you know about them, and know how to defend (or rather WHEN)
against them, then they're only used every so often, much like combos
or ticks. Most of the game is built around the positional fakes and
setups to those combos, ticks, and meaty attacks.
Ming
--
Eu-Ming Lee mi...@interaccess.com
"i showed this girl my stitches
"she said she had some too
"she said she thinks she'll start a rock band too." - Throwing Muses
Eu-Ming Lee
>In Super, trying to counter a 'prevent-an-attack' move will get you
>dizzy much easier than just countering a regular type of attack.
It seems that the UIUC people are refraining from using the word
"meaty". And probably for good reason. It just plain sounds stupid.
I can't say it myself without snickering.
I vote that we find a new name for this tactic. The nominees are...
"Meaty" by Sunnyvale Golfland (applause)
"Bjork" by Ming of UIUC (applause applause)
I just like Bjork, because I like Bjork, and it sounds much better
than meaty. I mean, it's more fun to say, "Oh, BOY did he get
Bjorked badly that round" than to say, "He got hit be a meaty attack."
Anyway, the old term for not correctly blocking a 'meaty' attack
was calling 'minging'. But this is the action of the defender, not
the action of the attacker.
Anyway, from now on, Bjork you too!
Eu-Ming Lee
>are the most difficult. They are not uncounterable, but jump ticks epend
>on the attack being a DP stopper, requiring a fixed timing. it CAN'T be
>varied.
It doesn't matter if the jump itself requires a fixed timing. After all,
so does the meaty attack. What matters is what manner of tick or
counter-tick or counter-counter-tick which comes after the block. In
the case of a jump in, the attacker has time to make a conscious decision
whether he wants to tick or counter-tick. In the meaty attack, any
hesitation means a counterthrow. So against the knowledgeable, a meaty
attack is simply a blocked combo. Big deal.
Alex Werner
Huy T. Nguyen <huy...@seas.gwu.edu> wrote:
>I go back to the belief that if you got thrown when you weren't dizzy, you
>could have thrown your opponent back. It might be unfamiliar now but if you
>can't adapt, then maybe the game isn't for you. And if you think it's so hard
There are numerous ticks, particularly SPD ticks and Honda ticks, that
can't be counterthrown because of superior throw range.... of course they
can be escaped, just not with counterthrows...
Speaking of whether its better to meaty attack or jump in, one advantage
of jumping in is that is forces someone to block straight back, thus losing
their down charge. This could be crucial, since a FK is a great way to counter
ticks with guile...
.
--
Alex Werner | Math/CS | Haverford College
awe...@venus.haverford.edu awe...@ralph.cs.haverford.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------
Take a key for coming in
Chuck Cochems
You could say that the game is about setups, but the setup here is a
knockdown. That's the setup. I was talking aobut novices here. I was
saing that even a not-so-good Ryu player had a chance to get off those
wake-up DPs. Agaist masters, you are right, of course. But someone who
still doesn't always get it right won't stop everybody from trying. CE
takes the defenseive game to an extreme. Theis new tactic I think may
unbalance the game towards the offensive... Now people with long
hangtime, it is true MUST use a ground attack to stop a DP, and making it
meaty is best. But I just don't like seeing people stand so close to me
and staying unthrown. Some people actually managed to consistently ming
others with crouching shorts...
--
zap...@camelot.bradley.edu
"I want you to imagine that I have an extremely powerful Kill-O-Zap
blaster in my hand..." --- Zaphod Beeblebrox.
William A. Brien
Eu-Ming Lee <mi...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>It seems that the UIUC people are refraining from using the word
>"meaty". And probably for good reason. It just plain sounds stupid.
>I can't say it myself without snickering.
>
>I vote that we find a new name for this tactic. The nominees are...
>
>"Meaty" by Sunnyvale Golfland (applause)
>"Bjork" by Ming of UIUC (applause applause)
>
>I just like Bjork, because I like Bjork, and it sounds much better
>than meaty. I mean, it's more fun to say, "Oh, BOY did he get
>Bjorked badly that round" than to say, "He got hit be a meaty attack."
Um, just so I can look *way* cool at the next arcade I'm at (which will be
around 2035), just exactly how do I say this next catchphrase of SF2 lingo?
Buh-jork?
Bee-ork?
Boolfooligus?
What? I don't want to be left out on this "craze that's sweeping the
nation." Tell me, please!!!
Heh heh. I made a funny.
--
Will (the Thrill!) Brien - that's me.
John Q. Ronstedt
Unbelievably stupid crap deleted.
>Yep, isn't it GREAT! Getting knocked down now has a PENALTY! >=)
Get your fucking head out of your ass. I can't believe this shit at all.
From Tom Cannon, a long time poster. This is NOT NEW. THIS IS OLD.
THIS IS A YEAR OLD AT LEAST.
How can you people post on this net, talk about it, etc.. and just completely
ignore everything. This is disgusting. Getting knocked down now has a
PENALTY! OH WOW!!!! You have SEEN THE LIGHT!!! NOW, give you complete morons
another year, with the guidance of JOHN NISHINAGA, and you will develop
'MEATY' ticks and counter ticks to the point where you'll go onto something
new. JQR, why are you such an asshole? why don't you ever post
anything CONSTRUCTIVE to the net? Why bother? Put me in your damn kill
file.. practice your new 'MEATY' ticks. Get back to U of I in about a year.
maybe then you can teach us something new again. Let me give you a little
morsel for your new 'MEATY' knowledge. If you still play hyper, and use Ken,
just learn one tick: forward kick, DP or... Forward kick, throw. as they
are getting up.. Very complex, I know. Get the spacing right. should take
about 5 minutes. Then you will be able to beat everyone at your school.
Bingo. Hell, before I got to U of I, Joong, another 'moron' was beating
everyone with that one tick. Use moves that push them slightly out of
both of your throw ranges. Throw them a split second after they attempt
a throw. You'll throw them as they are whiffing a fierce punch. Next time,
do a short kick from max range, then walk in a tad and throw. Next time,
walk in and do a forward kick, DP. Next time, do a forward kick, stay
a millimeter out of their sweep range, wait for the sweep, throw. Next time,
jump in with a well timed roundhouse.. if they 'ming' follow it up with a
combo and stun them, then finish them off. One mistake, and you win.
If they don't ming, sit there and wait for them to try something, then sweep
them, or throw. Think of your own shit. Don't just LET them get up out
of fear of a moronic DP or throw attempt. Why don't you just give them
the game while you are at it?
John Q. Ronstedt
>In article <2i776u$o...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
>John Q. Ronstedt <pri...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) writes:
>>
>>
>>Unbelievably stupid crap deleted.
>>
>>>Yep, isn't it GREAT! Getting knocked down now has a PENALTY! >=)
>>
>>Get your fucking head out of your ass. I can't believe this shit at all.
>>From Tom Cannon, a long time poster. This is NOT NEW. THIS IS OLD.
>>THIS IS A YEAR OLD AT LEAST.
>I mentioned that the day I posted the description. I also noted that it
>was the extent and quality of use, not the tactic itself, that
>distinguished the Golfland players.
Uh, excuse me, you lying sack of shit, but you listed it under techniques
'unique' to Sunnyvale. This implies not a high level of skill, but an
entirely different technique. Also, the phrase: Getting knocked down
'NOW' has a PENALTY!' implies that before, it didn't. Which of course,
it did, due to 'meaty' attacks. But you imply very plainly that before, these
attacks did not exist. For even at an average skill level, 'meaty'
attacks would impose some penalty for a knockdown. On top of all this,
you described this technique with a hithertofore unknown word : meaty.
Not, they timed there attacks REALLY WELL or they MINGED each other
EXTREMELY WELL, so well that it distinguishes them from every other
school, but you called it something entirely new. This also implies
that you thought the technique was new. Or, do you call things different
when people 'distinguish themselves' with their skill in that technique?
Should I say that ming 'HAMMYS' me when he does a 4 hit balrog combo?
because he does the combo REALLY good? Should I say that Ben 'DAIRY
PRODUCTYS' me when he does an SPD, because he 'distinguishes himself'
with his prolific use of what the REST OF THE FUCKING WORLD calls an SPD?
Get the fuck out of here with you 'unique' new tactic and take your lame
name back with you. I've got a hint for you: BLOCK you complete MORON.
no matter how TEMPTING it looks to attempt a moronic DP when they are
right there, fucking BLOCK.
Tom Cannon, I am surprised you even attempted this piece of shit rebuttle
of 'oh I meant they were really good at it, not that I thought it was new'.
You must have known that it would be completely torn to shreds by anyone
who is at least as intelligent as yourself, which includes humanity as
we know it, lower life forms, and some inorganic materials.
>---
>Tom Cannon
>ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Thomas Calvin Cannon
>
>
>Unbelievably stupid crap deleted.
>
>>Yep, isn't it GREAT! Getting knocked down now has a PENALTY! >=)
>
>Get your fucking head out of your ass. I can't believe this shit at all.
>From Tom Cannon, a long time poster. This is NOT NEW. THIS IS OLD.
>THIS IS A YEAR OLD AT LEAST.
I mentioned that the day I posted the description. I also noted that it
was the extent and quality of use, not the tactic itself, that
distinguished the Golfland players.
[ranting deleted]
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
John Nishinaga
Every week at a local arcade we have a small tournament for tokens. We're
using the double-elimination method but I'm having some difficultly in trying
to set up a loser bracket progression chart that's fair and diverse.
Actually, I did make one up but it's a bit more complex than what I'd like.
I was wondering if anybody was more experienced in such matters -- I'd like
to know how you would set things up.
--
John Nishinaga
jnis...@netcom.com
John Nishinaga
> NOW, give you complete morons another year, with the guidance of JOHN
> NISHINAGA, and you will develop 'MEATY' ticks and counter ticks to the
> point where you'll go onto something new.
super-timed DP? Hmmm, sounds like a bad idea to me.
> Get your fucking head out of your ass. I can't believe this shit at all.
> From Tom Cannon, a long time poster. This is NOT NEW. THIS IS OLD. THIS
> IS A YEAR OLD AT LEAST.
The concept of anti-DP/throw timings didn't take root in my world until around
the time HF came out. In the beginning it was the simple Jumping Short,
Fierce, Fireball and the standing Short, crouching Short, Dragon Punch. It
progressed and meshed with ticks, fakes, etc. until it became a part of the
game.
The point is although the recent discussion is old hat for me, to others it's
not. I'm glad to see that some people are actually benefiting from this
place rather than just somewhere to boost one's ego and discuss SF2's
intricities. For me, alt.games.sf2 has provide me with some combo's and some
theory humbleness from Seth and friends, but nothing that has really helped
or changed my game (and lately it needs all the help it can get! ^_^).
Sure Tom has been here for a while, and maybe he did ignore a lot of the prior
postings. However, it's not that big of deal and he (hopefully) he did learn
something from it. Isn't that goal of this group -- to improve the knowledge
and the ability of its readers? I really think your heated response was
really unwarranted.
--
John Nishinaga
jnis...@netcom.com
Eu-Ming Lee
>To person claiming that the timing is no more difficult to counterthrow..
>Evidently, you didn't read carefully enough. By varing his connect time
>with the attack, he can keep the tickee guessing! He can do the attack
>as early as possible, he can do it a milisecond later, or later stil, and
>still be immune.
Ummm... A millisecond is hardly noticeable by humans. But if you mean
a slight moment later or earlier, then the meaty attack is no longer
a meaty attack, and you can DP or throw out of it. This is called
mistiming your attack. The timing to perform the attack is more
difficult than to counter it.
[Hypothetical situation deleted]
>I submit that getting knocked down with the discovery of this strategy
^^^^^^^^
>has TOO much of a penalty now. I consider perfect jumpins fair, as they
>are difficult to time, and difficult to tick after. Jump ticks are more
>counterthrowable than meaty ticks, which have a more random element in them.
>Un DPable jump in=fair.. balances play..
>Dang near impossible to counterthrow meaty tick= enough to scare even
^^^^
>non-masters away... I think if someone is standing next to you when you
^^^^^^^
>get up, they deserve to be thrown. They should have done a jump in. The
>jump in is the answer to stopping throws..
>I bet even an accomplished counterthrower would be ticked mercillessly in
^^^^^
>Sunnyvale and not get many counterthrows... it is the tickee that
>requires the superhuman judgement to get the counterthrow in this
>situation.
>At least it must be conceded that meaty attacks are more difficult on HF...
Are you sure you know what you're talking about? I mean, it seems to
me, at least, that you're arguing hypothetically. While this is an
interesting discourse if we're talking about the unknown, we are talking
about something which people have known for a long time. You're arguing
against people who DO know about this kind of attack and are telling you
straight out what its effect on gameplay is. Your hypothetical position
is tenuous, at best. You might as well argue that the earth is flat.
Also, do not take Thomas Cannon's opinions on the gameplay as [should I
say] Canonical. Although he does a good job of explaining combos and
meaty attacks, his interpretation of their effect on gameplay is only
temporary. After the people get used to this newly discovered tactic,
it is not nearly as drastic, in terms of gameplay. It might be the
style of his own playing area is drastically different from Sunnyvale's,
but that cannot necessarily be attributed to meaty attacks.
Ming
--
Eu-Ming Lee mi...@interaccess.com
"They say he sprung from the skull of Athena
"Think of your own head
"And the headache he gave." - Liz Phair
Philip John Stroffolino
>There are numerous ticks, particularly SPD ticks and Honda ticks, that
>can't be counterthrown because of superior throw range.... of course they
>can be escaped, just not with counterthrows...
There are plenty of ticks, depending on the characters involved, that
can not be escaped at all. Not every character has a DP/razor kick
equivalent, after all... Is there anything Bison can do after being
pushed out of his throw range by a series of Zangief ducking jabs before
he's taken for whirl?
Phil
John Q. Ronstedt
>pri...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (John Q. Ronstedt) writes:
>
>> NOW, give you complete morons another year, with the guidance of JOHN
>> NISHINAGA, and you will develop 'MEATY' ticks and counter ticks to the
>> point where you'll go onto something new.
>
>Guidance from the guy who thought you could hit a no-DP attack with a
>super-timed DP? Hmmm, sounds like a bad idea to me.
>
>> Get your fucking head out of your ass. I can't believe this shit at all.
>> From Tom Cannon, a long time poster. This is NOT NEW. THIS IS OLD. THIS
>> IS A YEAR OLD AT LEAST.
>
>[Flame excerpted.]
>
>The concept of anti-DP/throw timings didn't take root in my world until around
>the time HF came out. In the beginning it was the simple Jumping Short,
>Fierce, Fireball and the standing Short, crouching Short, Dragon Punch. It
>progressed and meshed with ticks, fakes, etc. until it became a part of the
>game.
The concept was always there when I played Classic, champion, and hyper.
The concept always seemed intuitive to me. On top of that, there was a
big flame war (which UIUC won, of course) about the time Hyper was
popular I guess. by then, this concept was old hat to UIUC, as are many
of the concepts that are continually debated on this neolithically inspired
newsgroup.
John Nishinaga
pri...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (John Q. Ronstedt)
> jnis...@netcom.com (John Nishinaga) writes:
>
>> The concept of anti-DP/throw timings didn't take root in my world until
>> around the time HF came out. In the beginning it was the simple Jumping
>> Short, Fierce, Fireball and the standing Short, crouching Short, Dragon
>> Punch. It progressed and meshed with ticks, fakes, etc. until it became a
>> part of the game.
>
> The concept was always there when I played Classic, champion, and hyper. The
> concept always seemed intuitive to me.
for the no-DP timings. For a while I thought it was a new discovery. It
wasn't until I started learning a "new timing" for countering these attacks,
in that you couldn't use buffering. Anyways, you all know the deal...
When Super came out things got slower and easier to time. Naturally I thought
it would be easier to do the "new timing," yet the exact opposite happened.
After a few weeks of adjusting the speed, trying to DP (or whatever) any
timed attack was around 0%. Two things could have happened, either Super was
changed (I doubt it), or that my perception of the timed attack wasn't
entirely accurate on HF.
The point is, I'm pretty convinced I was wrong because I made the simple
mistake of perceived something differently. Being somewhat scientific, I
never really subscribed to thinking that something is simply because it makes
more sense. I instead went with the information that was presented and later
realized I was wrong because of this.
> by then, this concept was old hat to UIUC, as are many of the concepts that
> are continually debated on this neolithically inspired newsgroup.
for a disagreement. People can say, "if the attacker times it right, the
defender can never DP, otherwise he always can," however, it's difficult to
provide a proof. The best you can do is say, "we've practiced it X
iterations and this is our conclusion." This still leaves possibility that
your perceptions were incorrect. Furthermore, saying that "I'm right because
I know better" is more than enough to encite an argument (and I do recall
someone basically saying this.)
--
John Nishinaga
jnis...@netcom.com
Caine Schneider
>Could anyone please verify any "specialness" of CE? Quinn recently made
>a sweeping claim that the timed attack phenomena existed on all
>versions. I'd tend to believe him, though I haven't personally
>witnessed (or noticed) timed attacks on versions previous to Super.
They do exist, perhaps no one cared to notice them. Maybe no one
thought that a move like that existed, and so doubted it's existence
and believed it could not be done. I know that these moves are in
Classic, and would say the same for CE since they are in HF.
>MMSF was, less than a year ago, heavily flamed for claiming he could
>prevent wake up DPs on CE, with a Chun Li flying fierce. This was
>before anyone on the net believed that such a thing was possible
>(including the UIUC folk).
Um, he said Chun could knock Ryu out of the DP. This is different,
in a way. We are talking about preventing the DP from even being
started, hence Ryu can't be knocked out it; he was never able to
do it.
>And later, after Q introduced timed attacks to UIUC and first tenatively
>posted about them this past summer, Seth defended his flaming of MMSF,
>suggesting that CE was different in this aspect.
Same as above. No one thought it could be done, and so never tried.
_____________________________________
caine schneider cai...@ncsa.uiuc.edu
Eu-Ming Lee
>About the time HF came out was when I became personally aware of near-proof
>for the no-DP timings. For a while I thought it was a new discovery. It
>wasn't until I started learning a "new timing" for countering these attacks,
>in that you couldn't use buffering. Anyways, you all know the deal...
This was a peculiarity in the beginning. I had always attributed it
(albeit falsely) to poor joysticks. If you were accustomed to the
shoddy condition of the joysticks at UIUC, you'd understand. CE came
out in Spaceport with pre-busted joysticks. Now wasn't that kind of
them to save us all the trouble?
>When Super came out things got slower and easier to time. Naturally I thought
>it would be easier to do the "new timing," yet the exact opposite happened.
>After a few weeks of adjusting the speed, trying to DP (or whatever) any
>timed attack was around 0%. Two things could have happened, either Super was
>changed (I doubt it), or that my perception of the timed attack wasn't
>entirely accurate on HF.
If the attacker times his jump AND attack correctly, the chance of a
wake-up DP is 0% in both HF and Super. I remember you told me that
if I timed my wake-up DP better in HF, I could still get off the DP.
I was never able to confirm that. After so many drubbings, I gave it
up. For my efforts, I got a SF2 screwup named after me.
>The point is, I'm pretty convinced I was wrong because I made the simple
>mistake of perceived something differently. Being somewhat scientific, I
>never really subscribed to thinking that something is simply because it makes
>more sense. I instead went with the information that was presented and later
>realized I was wrong because of this.
Hmmm... I'm really clueless as to what you're talking about. Anyway,
the speed of HF might account for making things more difficult to time.
But who knows. As for being wrong, I'm wrong about many things in
Super all of time. It's just sad that most people don't even notice.
>Although I can understand your frustration I think there was reasonable cause
>for a disagreement. People can say, "if the attacker times it right, the
>defender can never DP, otherwise he always can," however, it's difficult to
>provide a proof. The best you can do is say, "we've practiced it X
>iterations and this is our conclusion." This still leaves possibility that
>your perceptions were incorrect. Furthermore, saying that "I'm right because
>I know better" is more than enough to encite an argument (and I do recall
>someone basically saying this.)
Well, the proof was a skeptical Ming revisiting his old training grounds
and getting trounced because he couldn't wake-up DP anymore. In CE, it
was pretty much understood that you just don't jump in on Ryu as he's
getting up. Period. Jumping in opened a whole new vistas of cheapness
and allowed Krazy Ken (who was mainly a diversion in CE) to become quite
a fearsome force in HF.
I posted my results to the net without much fanfare since I pretty much
expected SF2 evolution to go on without me. There were still doubters
still in the UIUC camp, as well--- but those were mostly people who
were not confident with the DPing abilities in the first place. But
_I_ don't miss a DP. When I want to do one, I can do one. When I want
to do one with one hand, I can do one.
Also, around this time, JQR and Joong infiltrated the newsgroup. I
suppose the effect was to degrade the believability of UIUC players.
In any case, any sensible posts about bjorking were brushed aside
by the loud, brash, and obnoxious flames from other UIUC players.
Why hell, I was even flamed by JQR for posting about Zangief's M2PD
in Super.
Well, the evolution of this newsgroup amuses me. It always stagnates
for a while after the latest edition has been out a long time.
Actually, the aptly named 'meaty' threads have generated more serious
SF2 discussion since Super first came out. Not much is revolutionary.
I suppose I should try to beat every with Ryu in Super using CE
strategies. Now THAT would be revolutionary (especially vs. those
Dhalsim and Sagat worms...) But if JQR can't do it, I can't imagine
me coming up with something in 2 hours... unless it's a magic throw :)
Ming
Eu-Ming Lee
>They do exist, perhaps no one cared to notice them. Maybe no one
>thought that a move like that existed, and so doubted it's existence
>and believed it could not be done. I know that these moves are in
>Classic, and would say the same for CE since they are in HF.
Well, I DO know for sure they existed in Classic. When CE came out,
the first thing I found remarkable was that a mediocre Ryu player
held the machine with fireball traps. I noticed immediately that
you got nailed when you jumped in... and we tried many times. This
wasn't true of Classic.
I never learned to play Ken/Ryu in Classic (they really sucked).
Guile had a wake-up razor kick in Classic. Go ahead. Try to jump
in on him, or do meaty attacks. You'll get wumped. But true
invulnerability was bestowed upon Ryu (and also Ken). So, I learned
the DP motion just for CE's boring Ryu.
>>MMSF was, less than a year ago, heavily flamed for claiming he could
>>prevent wake up DPs on CE, with a Chun Li flying fierce. This was
>>before anyone on the net believed that such a thing was possible
>>(including the UIUC folk).
>Um, he said Chun could knock Ryu out of the DP. This is different,
>in a way. We are talking about preventing the DP from even being
>started, hence Ryu can't be knocked out it; he was never able to
>do it.
In any case, he claimed it was true on CE. I don't know of any
CE machines to field test this, but it might be interesting to
know.
>>And later, after Q introduced timed attacks to UIUC and first tenatively
>>posted about them this past summer, Seth defended his flaming of MMSF,
>>suggesting that CE was different in this aspect.
>Same as above. No one thought it could be done, and so never tried.
I disagree. When CE first came out, many people tried. However, you,
Seth, and the other frosh were still in high school at this time.
Boring Ryu was simply evil. By the time you guys arrived, none of
the regulars jumped in on Ken/Ryu's getting up so the newbies learned
that as well.
Ming
Philip John Stroffolino
>>MMSF was, less than a year ago, heavily flamed for claiming he could
>>prevent wake up DPs on CE, with a Chun Li flying fierce. This was
>>before anyone on the net believed that such a thing was possible
>>(including the UIUC folk).
>he said Chun could knock Ryu out of the DP. This is different,
>in a way. We are talking about preventing the DP from even being
>started, hence Ryu can't be knocked out it; he was never able to
>do it.
He never said he hit Ryu players out of their DPs on the way up, if I
remember correctly.
Thinking back, the only thing MMSF ever said that sounded fishy was that
he could "see the first frame of Ryu's DP" as he struck with his perfect
timing. But he only said this after he was flamed repeatedly, and
accused of jumping in on opponents that couldn't DP well as they got up.
Other than that (which could have been his imagination ^_^) he described
a timed jump-in exactly, and even had a friend that supported him with
an example similar to the one that convinced Eu-Ming.
Hmm... rather than trust my memory...
[ftp, dusts off old MMSF Guide]
:> -CHUN LI-
:>
:>Best Against> Dhalsim, Ken, Ryu, Blanka, E.Honda, Sagat
:>Worst Against> M.Bison
:>
:>This female Kung Fu fighter from China combines excellent air attacks, a
:>fairly good ground game, and excellent throws, with effective and easy
:>to apply combos. Below is a summary on how to handle different opponents.
:>[...]
:>READ ME
:>**** Knocking Ryu\Ken out of the DP.
:> You can only do this if you jump in just as they start to stand up from
:> being knocked down. You must time your jump so that as you come down
:> your attack (a fierce punch) strikes them in the top of the head just
:> as soon as he is graphically half way up. In other words you hit him
:> in the top of the head just as he starts to STAND back up (make sure
:> you wait for him to start to stand or your attack may go throw him and
:> he will throw you). Use the fierce punch to knock him out of the DP and
:> then follow it with a ducking strong punch, and a ducking forward sweep.
:> YES this will knock him out of a DP if you get the timing right and he
:> is going for one..........!
Phil says check it out!
(I imagine from his description that he meant "DP attempt" rather than
"DP" in the last sentence -- not like good old "use lots of good foot
sweeps" MMSF was every clumsy with words or anything ^_^)
So does Seth owe MMSF an apology after all, or what..? =)
Phil "too bad MMSF is not around for these meaty discussions" Stroffolino
Seth James Killian
>he could "see the first frame of Ryu's DP" as he struck with his perfect
>timing. But he only said this after he was flamed repeatedly, and
>accused of jumping in on opponents that couldn't DP well as they got up.
>[ftp, dusts off old MMSF Guide]
[Guide deleted]
>Phil says check it out!
>(I imagine from his description that he meant "DP attempt" rather than
>"DP" in the last sentence -- not like good old "use lots of good foot
>sweeps" MMSF was every clumsy with words or anything ^_^)
>So does Seth owe MMSF an apology after all, or what..? =)
Hmm. Could well be. Here are my objections. Although I found his
unDPable theory a little tough to swallow, that was not why I was flaming him
on a what amounted to basically a daily basis. He was arrogant (a totally
unforgivable sin :), and wrong at the same time. This is about as flamable
as it gets. His original guides (haven't read the rest, or your excerpt. No
out of spite, just because I find guides to be full of overgeneralizations and
devoid of any interest in general) *were* huge flying pieces of crap. They
would be of help to nothing more than a _total_ newbie, who was unfamiliar
with, say, a given characters moves or whatnot. His advice was littered
with such precision phrases as the aforementioned "use good footsweeps", and
his strategy basically went: Hit the other guy with your moves, and don't
get hit (play opening soundtrack from 2001). Essentially true, but I think
anyone who read some of the guides makes no mistake about their value. I
made fun of him on numerous points, all of which he distinctly dodged. He
wouldn't ever logically try and defend some of his questioned assertions,
and on the net, where the only medium is the word, this is quite intolerable.
So we had some fun, and (lo and behold) nothing ever came of it. They told
us to come to West Virginia to play, and we laughed. Then they said they
would be willing to be make a 3:1 100 dollar bet, odds in our favor. Well,
sure. We will go. Let's get this organized. Oh, waitaminit. Did I say in
your favor? Yes, MMSF, you did. Oh, well now it's 3:1 in *my* favor. Well,
now once again we aren't going, because roadtrips cost money, and since we
would have to stay overnight someplace, only the original odds would even
cover expenses, assuming we win. So Ming intercedes with "You come *here*
and I will give you 5:1 odds, minimum bet 200$. Now there's a bet. But,
the mighty MMSF decided to stay put, and make some final inane remarks
before fading into total obscurity.
But, was he right with the unDPable theory? Well, we all had our
suspicions about possible unDPablity long before MMSF, but with the way Ryu
was in CE, it got very expensive to keep trying to prove this against your
human opponents. Practicing against the computer was a moot point, since so
many people played on the ONE working machine, you could never get in a game
against the CPU. Also, the nature of the DP has changed with each version,
and since I don't have a CE handy, I can't say either way. My final gripe with
the MMSF argument was that he claimed it was a special ability of Chun Li, like
her ability to knock Sagat out of the TU, which totally misconstrues the
principles involved. He may have been right, but even he didn't understand
why. So, does MMSF go on record (assuming it was really possible in CE) as
the first to denounce the DP? Possibly. But if you want to accredit him on
the basis of his mouth alone, I would say that is unfair to all the scrubs
who posted before saying "My friends Blanka just always keeps jumping in on
my Ken. I can't do anything. How can I get out of this cheap move?". Perhaps
their friend was jumping in with the precise timing, everytime. Perhaps you
were too quick to chuckle. But, you say, even if that were the case, the
scrub didn't know what was going on. He gets no credit. But from MMSF's
understanding of the phenomenon, these all too common scrub comments (whcih
predated MMSF by quite a while) should recieve equal GOD status. SCRUBS ARE
GOD!!! Was MMSF right? Perhaps. Was he an idiot? Definitely. Did he
understand what even he was talking about? No. Should I say he was right?
Quite possibly, remains to be seen. Do I owe him an apology? Hell no.
Have a nice day.
Seth Killian