SFA2 at UCLA... Day 3, Part 2: Turtling
J Chensor
trying to find ways around ACs. I also spent the entire time trying to
figure out how to use CCs effectively. I also tried to find ways for
Zangief to win. Turns out it all didn't matter. NONE of it mattered.
As I said, these posts are all ups and downs and today is back to a
down. Finding out ACs were counterable didn't matter much 'cause ACs
weren't that bad anymore.
Anyhow, Milo Cooper and Bob Painter both showed up at UCLA yesterday
to help me find new things. The only thing that we found out is that the
game is TOO catered to turtlers. EVERY fight, no matter against WHO, the
enemy would turtle. It was PATHETIC! And I blame it on the bad normal
moves. The TERRIBLE normal moves that are too powerful on the ground and
too weak in the air.
Example: If ANYONE jumps at Rolento, Rolento can hit EVERYONE out of
the air with a Crouching Jab (or is it Standing... whatever it was, he
stiucks his pole backwards when he turns around and it stops everything).
Gen can peg everyone with a Crouch Roundhouse (in the right mode), Adon
can hit everyone with Offensive Forward now (they INCREASED it's
priority), Sakura can Crouch Fierce everyone, Zangief can Crouch STRONG
all jumpers... so on...
No one jumps anymore. They might as well have TAKEN out the jump
option. Worried about Air Blocking? Never happens anymore 'cause no one
jumps! It's utter suicide. And I don't want to hear any BS from Mr.
Klein telling me that jumping was futile in Super Turbo as well BECAUSE IT
WASN'T. People like Zangief COULD be jumped at from longer distance,
Honda was a target for jump attacks if e wasn't charged up, even people
with instantaneous DP moves could be jumped at provided you caught them
off guard (playing a footsie game with Fei Long and you suddenly jump at
him. Not ready for the jump, he blocks for fear of attemtping his DP move
will be too slow and he'll get nailed... it HAPPENS). Now, in SFA2, the
reaction is so simple... one move does all and all you have to do is hit
one button... that's all. Noy joystick motion, NOTHING. They might as
well have given EVERYONE instantaneous DPs with the Crouch Fierce button.
Wouldn't change the game play ONE bit.
It was MUCH different in Super Turbo. It was the JUMPING attacks
that won over ground moves. A Cammy Jumping Strong, a Honda Roundhouse, a
Zangief Down+Forward, a Guile Fierce, a Ken Fierce, a T.Hawk
Down+Strong... WHATEVER it was, jumping moves beat ground moves 90% of the
time. Now, in SFA2, the ground moves beat the air moves 90% of the time
and trade the other 10%. There's no way around it at ALL... no high
priority moves in the air. So even people like Sakura who doesn't have an
effective DP special move can just Crouch Fierce everyone without worry.
Chun, who's WEAKNESS should be her lack of a DP move, has the pick of the
litter... Stand Fierce, Stand Roundhouse, DStnad Forward, or CROUCH
Roundhouse... they all stop jumpers without worry of being cleaned.
Jumping is a dead art form. I'm starting to enjoy MSH's Air Block
everything system.
You should see the pathetic games. Get the lead, run away. I was
fighting a Gen with Adon... after EVERY Jaguar Kick, he would counter with
a Hundred Hand Slap move... I would get hit most of the time (because of
the damn delay) but once I learned how to distance the JK correctly, I
could block it, but lost energy so we were still even. The comebacks are
dead in this game and are PURELY relegated to ticks and Instantaneous
Throws. The only way I drained energy from this Gen was by knocking him
down, Tripping him when he got up, THROWING him when he got up, Tripping
him again (he tried to counter throw), faking a throw and tripping him
again, then Throwing him when he got up. That's the only way to initiate
comebacks these days.
So the CCs are cool. Bob did an AWESOME Ken combo with Hurricane
Kicks and DPs... other people threw them out once in a while but they
didn't affect gameplay too badly... they did too little damage to be
noticeable and they hardly ever connected (I got a bunch of them to
connect thanks to Dan's tip on using Shorts and Forwards more). I even
used Zangief's CC as an approach... walked really fast, attacked with
about two Forward Kicks, walked up more and SPDed the enemy. Really
goofy, but it worked.
ACs are cool. They're the only way I could manage to get any damage
in against some turtlers. They don't hurt that badly and I think it's
mainly Akum'a AC that is getting me. They REALLY take a backseat to the
turtling problem (they don't really add to the turtling problem either...
most people end up playing footsie games and ACing the attacks on reaction
is tough since the timing for ACs has been reduced a little and many
attacks do whiff). All in all, they didn't seem to affect me... in
actuality, I failed to take advantage of ACs. I was using Zangief against
a Gen and Gen ACed a Jumping attack of mine but I could block it when I
land. Then, I just stood there. Rather, I should have just SPDed him
after the blocked AC. So ACs are good because they CAN be taken advatage
of.
To be honest with you, I had a MUCH funner time playing Cammy vs.
Cammy on Super Turbo with Milo (damn, his Cammy's GOOD! Showed me a thing
or to!) and then getting promptly destroyed by Bob's Zangief with the long
ranged grab as how it SHOULD be. I even had more fun playing Marvel Super
Heroes with Milo. It actually felt like there was some form of attack and
some form of method of play whereas in SFA2, people just walked back and
forth and back and forth and back and forth and NOTHING was happening. It
was really pathetic. I'm really ticked off at the game right now and if
you see it at your local arcade, IMMEDIATELY tell everyone who is playing
to use ticks and throws and everything as much as possible 'cause you'll
end up with no choice eventually. I know if I ever play the game again,
I'm throwing left and right.
So I'm very disappointed with our find... I'll wait and see what Bob
and Milo have to say about the game before I go on. Sorry about the
length of this post and thanks for your patience in reading it. I'll
still TRY and keep an open mind and if anyone can find some new form of
attack on SFA2, please tell us right away. Until then, this game is bad,
pure and simple... and I don't mean bad as in good...
- J.C.
--
"What's the sense in arguing when you're all alone?"
- TMBG
_____________________________________________________________________
J Chensor
jche...@ucla.edu
_____________________________________________________________________
Milo D. Cooper
>
> Anyhow, Milo Cooper and Bob Painter both showed up at UCLA yesterday
> to help me find new things. The only thing that we found out is that the
> game is TOO catered to turtlers. EVERY fight, no matter against WHO, the
> enemy would turtle. It was PATHETIC! And I blame it on the bad normal
> moves. The TERRIBLE normal moves that are too powerful on the ground and
> too weak in the air.
Freakin' A right, man. To attack a turtle is to make a move
of suicide or desperation.
> Example: If ANYONE jumps at Rolento, Rolento can hit EVERYONE out of
> the air with a Crouching Jab (or is it Standing... whatever it was, he
> stiucks his pole backwards when he turns around and it stops everything).
> Gen can peg everyone with a Crouch Roundhouse (in the right mode), Adon
> can hit everyone with Offensive Forward now (they INCREASED it's
> priority), Sakura can Crouch Fierce everyone, Zangief can Crouch STRONG
> all jumpers... so on...
Hahahaha, I'd forgotten about that! That was one of the most
laughable points of the evening (it was a standing move, by the way,
James). James had this pitiable look of incredulity on his face!
> No one jumps anymore. They might as well have TAKEN out the jump
> option. Worried about Air Blocking? Never happens anymore 'cause no one
> jumps! It's utter suicide.
This certainly seems to be the case. The ground-based attacks,
alpha counters, and custom combos all provide inordinately effective
insurance against jump-ins. When I got my five-victory run with Adon,
nearly all of my aerial attacks were jag-kick or jag-tooth ("toof").
I wasn't ABOUT to start jumping in, especially at that game speed.
Adon's strong overhead came in handy for a while, too -- then George
Ngo (I think) discovered Gen's crouching jab and just rammed it when-
ever I tried to fight close.
> You should see the pathetic games. Get the lead, run away.
Sounds like San Diego's Street Fighter climate. Welcome to
the boredom. I pity you.
> I was
> fighting a Gen with Adon... after EVERY Jaguar Kick, he would counter with
> a Hundred Hand Slap move... I would get hit most of the time (because of
> the damn delay) but once I learned how to distance the JK correctly, I
> could block it, but lost energy so we were still even. The comebacks are
> dead in this game and are PURELY relegated to ticks and Instantaneous
> Throws. The only way I drained energy from this Gen was by knocking him
> down, Tripping him when he got up, THROWING him when he got up, Tripping
> him again (he tried to counter throw), faking a throw and tripping him
> again, then Throwing him when he got up. That's the only way to initiate
> comebacks these days.
I can't wait for someone to even TRY to prove you wrong,
here. Where's Cannon? He's the foremost SFA2 apologist (Klein
doesn't count since he hasn't even seen the game), maybe he can
set us straight. Like James, here, I see monotonous close-up head
games as the SOLE vehicle for comebacks.
> So the CCs are cool. Bob did an AWESOME Ken combo with Hurricane
> Kicks and DPs... other people threw them out once in a while but they
> didn't affect gameplay too badly... they did too little damage to be
> noticeable and they hardly ever connected (I got a bunch of them to
> connect thanks to Dan's tip on using Shorts and Forwards more). I even
> used Zangief's CC as an approach... walked really fast, attacked with
> about two Forward Kicks, walked up more and SPDed the enemy. Really
> goofy, but it worked.
That, my good man, is the keyword: "goofy." THAT should
have been the name of this installment of the series: Street
Fighter Goofy. People are going to start frothing at the mouth
and laughing "uh-HYUH!" upon playing it.
> ACs are cool. They're the only way I could manage to get any damage
> in against some turtlers. They don't hurt that badly and I think it's
> mainly Akum'a AC that is getting me. They REALLY take a backseat to the
> turtling problem (they don't really add to the turtling problem either...
> most people end up playing footsie games and ACing the attacks on reaction
> is tough since the timing for ACs has been reduced a little and many
> attacks do whiff). All in all, they didn't seem to affect me... in
> actuality, I failed to take advantage of ACs. I was using Zangief against
> a Gen and Gen ACed a Jumping attack of mine but I could block it when I
> land. Then, I just stood there. Rather, I should have just SPDed him
> after the blocked AC. So ACs are good because they CAN be taken advatage
> of.
I disagree. Alpha-counters are just another instrument
for leveling learning curves to accomodate turtles and scrubs.
May I offer an analogy? Lots of people prefer cards and dice
to chess because their lack of skill is offset by chance with the
former two. Similarly, the gross convenience and simplicity of
execution of the alpha-counter provide a dimwit's worth of pro-
tection against the calculated attack of a superior player. This
is the kind of unconscionable trash with which Capcom have been
stuffing their game engines, and Alpha 2, thus far, is the pin-
nacle of it all. Resident Evil is Capcom's best game since Super
Turbo; perhaps they need to take up a new hobby, the graphic ad-
venture.
> To be honest with you, I had a MUCH funner time playing Cammy vs.
> Cammy on Super Turbo with Milo (damn, his Cammy's GOOD! Showed me a thing
> or to!) and then getting promptly destroyed by Bob's Zangief with the long
> ranged grab as how it SHOULD be. I even had more fun playing Marvel Super
> Heroes with Milo.
I DEFINITELY better enjoyed myself on ST and MSH. I
couldn't even savor those Adon/Rose wins, because Alpha 2 seems
to have obliterated much of Street Fighter's strategic aura,
and replaced it with excessive flair. For those of you who
haven't yet played the game, I kid you not: it is THE most
outlandish, THE spazziest Capcom fighter to date. It tops
MSH -- no mean feat. Just read Tom Cannon's Birdie posts: at
LEAST three hopping supers per round?!
> It actually felt like there was some form of attack and
> some form of method of play whereas in SFA2, people just walked back and
> forth and back and forth and back and forth and NOTHING was happening. It
> was really pathetic. I'm really ticked off at the game right now and if
> you see it at your local arcade, IMMEDIATELY tell everyone who is playing
> to use ticks and throws and everything as much as possible 'cause you'll
> end up with no choice eventually. I know if I ever play the game again,
> I'm throwing left and right.
That's not a bad idea, Thao did pretty well with Chun-Li
throws at Golfland.
> So I'm very disappointed with our find... I'll wait and see what Bob
> and Milo have to say about the game before I go on. Sorry about the
> length of this post and thanks for your patience in reading it. I'll
> still TRY and keep an open mind and if anyone can find some new form of
> attack on SFA2, please tell us right away. Until then, this game is bad,
> pure and simple... and I don't mean bad as in good...
>
> - J.C.
That's a bit of an understatement, in my book. Alpha 2
shouldn't happen to a DOG.
--
*** Milo D. Cooper --- mco...@sonyinteractive.com ***
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Milo D. Cooper <mco...@sonyinteractive.com> wrote:
[snip]
> I can't wait for someone to even TRY to prove you wrong,
>here. Where's Cannon? He's the foremost SFA2 apologist (Klein
>doesn't count since he hasn't even seen the game), maybe he can
>set us straight. Like James, here, I see monotonous close-up head
>games as the SOLE vehicle for comebacks.
>
Apologist my ass. I just won't jump on the "sfa2 sucks" bandwagon just
because everyone else is doing it.
As for "setting you straight" I agree that some characters overheads
are way out of wack. Bison's comes to mind as being particuarly obscene.
My only gripe (and this is the same gripe with every zealous flame out
there) is that the game just came out and already it's been declared
trash. Some of the flames out there sound suspiciously like those
"ticks are cheap" threads of old.
There are lots of good players here, and we're not having the same
insane problems that you guys are having. Most of this IMHO is from
the damage setting on your machine being set to max which is way way way
to high. I can't think of anything that would do 70% damage on the
machine here, and I've seen some pretty outrageous stuff.
[snip]
>MSH -- no mean feat. Just read Tom Cannon's Birdie posts: at
>LEAST three hopping supers per round?!
>
I said a match Milo. Not a round. That's between 1 and 2 a round, which
is not at all outlandish. It's like saying that Honda should be getting
around 3 uchio throws in a match, which often happens.
[snip]
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Allen J Klein
3, .. by "Milo D. Cooper"@sonyint
> here. Where's Cannon? He's the foremost SFA2 apologist (Klein
> doesn't count since he hasn't even seen the game), maybe he can
> set us straight. Like James, here, I see monotonous close-up head
> games as the SOLE vehicle for comebacks.
Plus, Mr. Cannon keeps his head on straight and doesn't get sidetracked
by purely english usage issues like I do when arguing with Mr. Painter.
If he leaves the 'cause, it's Sonic Hedgehog Fighting time!!
jk
--
0UY0T allen jamie klein S1HT0D yow! 3MT3LU0Y yan...@cmu.edu 0DYHW
Milo D. Cooper
>
> In article <315F53...@sonyinteractive.com>,
> Milo D. Cooper <mco...@sonyinteractive.com> wrote:
>
> >here. Where's Cannon? He's the foremost SFA2 apologist (Klein
> >doesn't count since he hasn't even seen the game), maybe he can
> >set us straight. Like James, here, I see monotonous close-up head
> >games as the SOLE vehicle for comebacks.
> >
>
> because everyone else is doing it.
"Bandwagon"? That implies that we criticize the game fundamen-
tally because others do. This is not the case. We say that the game is
weak as an honest appraisal. It's mighty arrogant of you not to give us
intellectual credit -- more of that Sunnyvale attitude that I pointed
out several months back.
Also, in the holistic context of this discussion, you ARE an
apologist; you are probably more positive about Alpha 2 than anyone
else here. An apologist is NOT necessarily a fan; s/he is merely one
who defends something under attack.
> As for "setting you straight" I agree that some characters overheads
> are way out of wack. Bison's comes to mind as being particuarly obscene.
> My only gripe (and this is the same gripe with every zealous flame out
> there) is that the game just came out and already it's been declared
> trash. Some of the flames out there sound suspiciously like those
> "ticks are cheap" threads of old.
So be it. That doesn't mean that the game isn't refuse. We
will see. I am normally very tolerant when a game design initially
seems poor to me, but Alpha Two breaks my threshold.
> There are lots of good players here, and we're not having the same
> insane problems that you guys are having. Most of this IMHO is from
> the damage setting on your machine being set to max which is way way way
> to high. I can't think of anything that would do 70% damage on the
> machine here, and I've seen some pretty outrageous stuff.
Could be.
> >MSH -- no mean feat. Just read Tom Cannon's Birdie posts: at
> >LEAST three hopping supers per round?!
>
> I said a match Milo. Not a round. That's between 1 and 2 a round, which
> is not at all outlandish. It's like saying that Honda should be getting
> around 3 uchio throws in a match, which often happens.
> ---
> Tom Cannon
Sorry. Still, Honda's uchio isn't comparable to Birdie's hop-
ping super. Something has gone wrong when supers happen with the same
frequency and effectiveness as regular special moves.
Ladi Flyer
>insane problems that you guys are having. Most of this IMHO is from
>the damage setting on your machine being set to max which is way way way
>to high. I can't think of anything that would do 70% damage on the
>machine here, and I've seen some pretty outrageous stuff.
Well, to figure this out for sure whether we are just dealing with an
insane damage setting... (sorry if you already addressed this, Tom, but my
server rarely brings up your posts for some reason).
Adon:
LV3 rushing SC, the normal one where you don't tap the buttons, does 45%.
LV3 rush SC, where you tap all punches, does maybe 55%.
LV1 CC: I think 2 S. FW, 2 SHORT JagKnee, RH JagKnee does 30%.
I can't remember my LV2 CC.
LV3 CC: 2 S. FW, 2 SHORT JagKnees, 2 RH JagKnees, RH JakKick does 70%.
Don't ask me why 2 more moves do 40% more damage than LV1, I know it works
here. I've done it repeatedly. BTW, you have to be very quick to get the
last hit.
Also, I know that Sakura's J. FR, S. FR, FR Uppercut does exactly 1/3, and
Zangief's SPD does around 20%.
Are these different from your machine?
Latr,
Dan Wells
Justin Ratcliff
>ping super. Something has gone wrong when supers happen with the same
>frequency and effectiveness as regular special moves.
> *** Milo D. Cooper --- mco...@sonyinteractive.com ***
Agreed about the Uchio throw; but perhaps we are missing something very
basic:
This game is still Street Fighter _Alpha_ 2. Alpha's main
changes from the SF2 system?: Chains, frequent/stored supers, and
AC's. Perhaps Capcom's goal initially was to create a sequel to
SFA, not to ST as we had all hoped.
--
Justin Ratcliff [LordRatt]
jus...@pe-Nelson.com
SF2, VF, VF2, Saturn, PSX, anime, manga...reality, PAH!
Cranes /|\ Gods of all modern music
SF2 code v1.0: t ->+ c+ T+ ->++ r+ (-) f+ g+ m+ s ->+ v++ M+ n o+
CreeD
>you see it at your local arcade, IMMEDIATELY tell everyone who is playing
>to use ticks and throws and everything as much as possible 'cause you'll
>end up with no choice eventually. I know if I ever play the game again,
>I'm throwing left and right.
I was surprised to learn that UCLA appears to be a no tap-throw zone.
At least, a disproportionate people bitched at the mere SUGGESTION of
tap throws. People accept zangief and birdie combos, but that's about
it. ... . that one Bison player <neil? Damn, I forgot the name
already> was playing Chris and I kept yelling THROW! ThROW@!@@!
whenever I saw an obvious opening, and chris refused to, but hell, the
guy played a turtley bison and charlie, what else was he supposed to
do, damn... and the guy seemingly got annoyed and suggested that I
shut up. Anyway. Maybe he was kidding, but I know ONE guy was
pissed off when he ate a low short, walk up throw, that I thought
Helen Keller could have seen coming, but oh well... ... Do you
experience this James?