Street Fighter III 2nd impact Fans
chungo
why don't talk about this?
it's great.
Milo D. Cooper
Akuma is extremely cheap, Elena is still useless, Hugo's repeated
ducking jabs are stupid, YunYang still has his easy chains, and Alpha
Three is the second best fighting game that Capcom have ever made.
--
/|__Milo D. Cooper__________________EverQuest character modeler__|\
\| http://www.milos-chalkboard.net/ http://www.everquest.com/ |/
CHRISMUTT
>Three is the second best fighting game that >Capcom have ever made.
hey milo, you really think so? maybe it's just me, i don't think it's that
good. none of the guys here in houston are playing it anymore either. after the
initial playing and testing everybody here just said " blah" and left it alone.
i know other places are playing it like crazy and praising it, but i just don't
see the reasons why. maybe you could enlighten me.
i personally think the game is just a meshing of SFA2 and the VS games. i think
the juggling system is silly VS style. the animation has gotten more VS like(
wild and over flashy ). the quotes, storylines( long drawn out stories and such
), and overall personality of the game just seems so damned silly.
granted i do see a little bit of similarity to "old school" style gameplay, but
it doesn't seem so much so that it over shadows the negative aspects of the
game. that's what i see anyway.
fill me in if i'm missing the greatness of the game, cause we just don't see it
here and i'd really like to know.
peace,
Mark Zedaker
<mi...@milos-chalkboard.net> wrote:
> > chungo wrote:
> >
> > anybody play this game?
> > why don't talk about this?
> > it's great.
>
> Akuma is extremely cheap, Elena is still useless, Hugo's repeated
> ducking jabs are stupid, YunYang still has his easy chains, and Alpha
> Three is the second best fighting game that Capcom have ever made.
>
The first being either DS1 or NW, right?
--
Mark Zedaker
ch...@home.com
George Tinkle
Milo D. Cooper wrote:
> > chungo wrote:
> >
> > anybody play this game?
> > why don't talk about this?
> > it's great.
>
> Akuma is extremely cheap, Elena is still useless, Hugo's repeated
> ducking jabs are stupid, YunYang still has his easy chains, and Alpha
> Three is the second best fighting game that Capcom have ever made.
Or, more aptly put. Milo, among others, still dislike SF3,
period.
Second Impact is a great game. Unfortunately a lot of fans don't get
to play it due to the mediocre reception the original SF3 recieved. Even
is Capcom doesn't think the series is all that great it's so much more
like SF2 than anything has been in a while.
--
Core Dump - America's Largest Armored Core Fan Site
http://members.stratos.net/fatboy/index.htm
"I don't make mistakes" - Badtz-Maru
sol t kim
In article <364F6B95...@stratos.net>,
George Tinkle <fat...@stratos.net> wrote:
>
>
>Milo D. Cooper wrote:
>
>> > chungo wrote:
>> >
>> > anybody play this game?
>> > why don't talk about this?
>> > it's great.
>>
>> Akuma is extremely cheap, Elena is still useless, Hugo's repeated
>> ducking jabs are stupid, YunYang still has his easy chains, and Alpha
>> Three is the second best fighting game that Capcom have ever made.
>
> Or, more aptly put. Milo, among others, still dislike SF3,
>period.
>
> Second Impact is a great game. Unfortunately a lot of fans don't get
>to play it due to the mediocre reception the original SF3 recieved. Even
>is Capcom doesn't think the series is all that great it's so much more
>like SF2 than anything has been in a while.
ummm....no. have you ever played against a guy good enough to parry just
about every one of your moves besides jab/short? or when he does parry
your jab into shin-shoryu-ken? not too much fun.
>
>--
>Core Dump - America's Largest Armored Core Fan Site
>http://members.stratos.net/fatboy/index.htm
>
>"I don't make mistakes" - Badtz-Maru
>
>
--
André Carmona
You said "playing a good guy enough", SF3 2i is for players who want a long
learning curve.
More fun than parry into ShinShoryuken is parry into Shungokusatsu .....
Bernade579
It is a big improvement of the lackluster SF3 (as backgrounds go anyway). They
used some stuff from Night Warriors. It's those SUPER scrubs who parry every
single move that you do. No thank you. When the Dreamcast version comes and I
can play it against proper players, then I give it the attention it deserves.
Parry off option people????????????
"Are you self taught like Dan?"
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
If they block or parry, throw. If the don't, attack. Sorry but it is
not that easy. Long learning curve... sorry but if you think this game is
good I seriously doubt that you have truly played the best of the best at
this game.
--
teck...@mbox4.singnet.com.sg
was much better....Vega's air throw is extremely cheap(95% damage),Kairin
still has her easy combos,Rolento's repeated jabs are very stupid ,and
Samurai Shodown 64 is the best
game very made in history.
"Milo D. Cooper" wrote:
> > chungo wrote:
> >
> > anybody play this game?
> > why don't talk about this?
> > it's great.
>
> Akuma is extremely cheap, Elena is still useless, Hugo's repeated
> ducking jabs are stupid, YunYang still has his easy chains, and Alpha
> Three is the second best fighting game that Capcom have ever made.
>
Kwy...@usa.net
"Milo D. Cooper" <mi...@milos-chalkboard.net> wrote:
> > chungo wrote:
> >
> > anybody play this game?
> > why don't talk about this?
> > it's great.
>
> Akuma is extremely cheap, Elena is still useless, Hugo's repeated
> ducking jabs are stupid, YunYang still has his easy chains, and Alpha
> Three is the second best fighting game that Capcom have ever made.
>
> --
> /|__Milo D. Cooper__________________EverQuest character modeler__|\
> \| http://www.milos-chalkboard.net/ http://www.everquest.com/ |/
>
Elena is not useless. Interestingly enough, I've racked up an impressive win
streak with the Storm-lookalike against decent players who just couldn't
figure out my style of playing her. Maybe if I were forced to play against a
master, I'd get my ass kicked quickly, but I do well enough with her. Now
Necro, OTOH...
KW! Shermie forever, Morrigan on weekends, Elena for quickies.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
sol t kim
>In article <364F4F10...@milos-chalkboard.net>,
> "Milo D. Cooper" <mi...@milos-chalkboard.net> wrote:
>> > chungo wrote:
>> >
>> > anybody play this game?
>> > why don't talk about this?
>> > it's great.
>>
>> Akuma is extremely cheap, Elena is still useless, Hugo's repeated
>> ducking jabs are stupid, YunYang still has his easy chains, and Alpha
>> Three is the second best fighting game that Capcom have ever made.
>>
>> --
>> /|__Milo D. Cooper__________________EverQuest character modeler__|\
>> \| http://www.milos-chalkboard.net/ http://www.everquest.com/ |/
>>
>
>Elena is not useless. Interestingly enough, I've racked up an impressive win
>streak with the Storm-lookalike against decent players who just couldn't
>figure out my style of playing her. Maybe if I were forced to play against a
>master, I'd get my ass kicked quickly, but I do well enough with her. Now
>Necro, OTOH...
>
*ahem* ryu's standing forward beats every single normal move of hers. is
that enough to convince you how bad she is?
>KW! Shermie forever, Morrigan on weekends, Elena for quickies.
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
André Carmona
Milo D. Cooper
>> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
>>> chungo wrote:
>>>
>>> anybody play this game?
>>> why don't talk about this?
>>> it's great.
>>
>> Akuma is extremely cheap, Elena is still useless, Hugo's repeated
>> ducking jabs are stupid, YunYang still has his easy chains, and Alpha
>> Three is the second best fighting game that Capcom have ever made.
>
No, those are after Vampire Savior, which is third.
--
/|__Milo D. Cooper________________EverQuest character modeler__|\
\| http://www.milos-chalkboard.net http://www.everquest.com |/
Milo D. Cooper
>> Kwy...@usa.net wrote:
>>> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
>>>
>>> Akuma is extremely cheap, Elena is still useless, Hugo's repeated
>>> ducking jabs are stupid, YunYang still has his easy chains, and Alpha
>>> Three is the second best fighting game that Capcom have ever made.
>>
>> streak with the Storm-lookalike against decent players who just couldn't
>> figure out my style of playing her. Maybe if I were forced to play against a
>> master, I'd get my ass kicked quickly, but I do well enough with her. Now
>> Necro, OTOH...
>
> *ahem* ryu's standing forward beats every single normal move of hers. is
> that enough to convince you how bad she is?
And that's not the worst of it. Her uppercut kick has the same
poor priority (for a special move) that it did in the first SF3 game,
and thanks to parries, two of her other three specials are almost
entirely useless. That leaves her with an unthreatening low spin
kick and normal attacks that have too many frames of animation to
allow her to compete against most of the other characters, whose
moves come out much quicker. Elena is ranked dead last by many
of the best Japanese and American gamers and magazines.
LazyJae
best and the play engine is the best. NEway the best SF character is in this
game. who? My man SEAN! the best shoto character. Well that is about it.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Sol's not thorough enough here; it beats all her specials too AND
one of her supers. Ryu has a die button. He presses forward and you get
smacked FOR FREE. Elena has absolutely nothing redeaming, except for a
mildly decent overhead, but then so does everything else. Total garbage.
At least Hugo and Urien have some decent moves, juggles, combos, etc...
--
André Carmona
you like SF3 2i? continue telling it!!
This applies to SFA SFA2 SFA3 VH NW VS... in fact all fighting games
Besides talking of SF3 2i is better than that crappy time time travel
thingy....
I
>
>> chungo wrote:
>>
>> anybody play this game?
>> why don't talk about this?
>> it's great.
>
"Cheap"?
_____________________________________________________________
T H E I N V I N C I B L E L A W S O F F I G H T I N G
Win
There is no such thing as "cheap"
There is no such thing as "honor"
Master all characters
"There can be only one"
I
I...@I.COM
invin...@w3.to
http://w3.to/invincible
_____ _______ _____ ______ _____ _ _
|_ _| | ____ | |_ _| | ____| | _ | | \ / |
| | | || _ | | | | | | | | | | \ / |
| | | |||_| | | | | | | | | | | \ / |
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|_____| |_______| |_____| |_| |______| |_____| |_| \_/ |_|
Copyright © 1997, 1998 All rights reserved
_____________________________________________________________
I
>
>anybody play this game?
>why don't talk about this?
>it's great.
To many people are captivated with SFA3's "gimmicks"(ie "ISM's" )
as well as it being the latest SF product off CAPCOM's assembly line.
However, everything is going according to plan...
1. New game arrives (SFA3)
2. Old game abandoned (SF32i)
3. Few weeks of feverish playing on new game
4. FAQ's are written
5. Websites updated/pop-up
6. "Tournaments" are held (note the quotations)
7. Character rankings are established after "tournament"
8. Players become bored and restless and reminisce on their favorite game
9. Players give suggestions on what they want now
10. Hype and rumours are spread about a new game (SF33i)
11. New game arrives (SF33i)
And the cycle continues...
Business as usual for CAPCOM. They are selling a drug which you, I, and
all gamers become addicted to.
Personally, the SF3 series is best game CAPCOM produced due to it's
gameplay, graphics, balance, and simplicity. Of course it has its drawbacks
with parry-fests, a clown for a boss, and lack of drama and story. But
beggers can't be choosers.
(sigh) if only I was given an oppurtunity...
Shaunlar
forward or down as you guess an attack, right?)
sol t kim
André Carmona <ryo_...@NoSpam.club-internet.fr> wrote:
>You don't like SF3 2i? OK stop writting it or tell it somewhere else
>you like SF3 2i? continue telling it!!
hold on. i thought this was DISCUSSION group, not a oh-i-love-it-so
confession room. don't mistake my comment, i like sf3 2i and i'm better
at it than other sf games i play. and i played sf3 2i A LOT and i know
somethings that prevented it from being a great game. that why i post
those things that sounds negitive to some 2impact fans
>This applies to SFA SFA2 SFA3 VH NW VS... in fact all fighting games
>Besides talking of SF3 2i is better than that crappy time time travel
>thingy....
i agree. that belongs somewhere else.
Elena still crap...Akuma still cheap...Yang still annoying...
there only can be....Alex and his Hyper bomb!!!!
--
André Carmona
super arts) some consider this cheap.
Killing someone with a fireball as he gets up is cheap also, and the parry
allows to avoid that BTW...
Shaunlar a écrit dans le message
<19981116195300...@ng124.aol.com>...
BionicTuna
>
> No, those are after Vampire Savior, which is third.
um, Vampire Savior had alot more crap in it to play with but the play got old
and dry alot quicker(too much emphasis on boring chain combos..)... NW was a
better game (actually had incentive to land a special move)...
i'm afraid i may end up liking SFA2 better than 3..
-bt-.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Shaunlar <shau...@aol.com> wrote:
>Not being a SF2i player, tell me, what was wrong with the parry system (tap
>forward or down as you guess an attack, right?)
Parries were the ultimate answer to everything. If you had *any* type of
consistant strategy you could easily be parried and then you'd eat a big
combo. But there is no risk in doing a parry, if you miss it nothing
happens you can block right after trying. SO... two things happen:
1) You should always be trying to parry all the time
2) You have to attack in a semi-spastic, unpredictable manner, because
*EVERYTHING* else gets parried.
The extent of "strategy" in this game is just what's above; parry and be
randomly offensive or parry and be randomly defensive. That's really
shallow.
--
sol t kim
Shaunlar <shau...@aol.com> wrote:
>Not being a SF2i player, tell me, what was wrong with the parry system (tap
>forward or down as you guess an attack, right?)
well, not really at first sight. but it turns out peple got a little too
good at it little too fast, and it was too powerful. for example,this
person, i believe john choi, actually invented something called "weaving
parry technique" which makes cpu interpret that you are in the state of
parrying 90% of the playing time. let's say he was playing as ryu. that
means you throw a jab, he parries it(90% of the time), shin-shoruykens it
for half your life. half your life for a jab! just watch someone parry all
of ibuki's knife throw super or gill's meteor strike. no strategy, no
reflexes, no experience can make you ever have a chance against such
player. it boils the entire game into mindless chain combo mess (yang,
akuma), because if you use strategy, that means you are predictable. that
means you get parried. that means you die.period.
--
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
>In article <01be10ca$3535a960$e0798bd0@chungo>, chu...@netvigator.com says...
>
>as well as it being the latest SF product off CAPCOM's assembly line.
>However, everything is going according to plan...
Most ppl. just pick one or two isms for a character and then are
done with it. Besides, SF3 had this with the SuperArtSelect system. The
only new things (to SF) are the blue blocks, air recoveries, and the
damage reduction. And two of those things don't see the light of play
very often..
<ZONK>
>And the cycle continues...
Not always. 2i has LONG since been abandoned in favor of either
A2 or MSHvsSF (even before MvC came along).
>Personally, the SF3 series is best game CAPCOM produced due to it's
>gameplay, graphics, balance,
Please, do explain how even a *decent* Ryu and Akuma can EVER lose
to even a masterful Elena. If elena does anything, they press forward
kick, and they got FREE DAMAGE. Elena has to super to beat this, and
spinning beat, or perhaps brave dance at that. In 2i she *might* be able
to beat it with an KKK scratch wheel, not sure.
Also explain how the following matches are "balanced"
Alex vs Sean
Necro vs Elena
Ibuki vs Alex
Oro vs Alex (and it was worse in 1st impact)
Necro vs Alex (also worse in 1st impact)
Yun, Yang, Ibuki, or Akuma versus Hugo
Yun, Yang, Ibuki, or Akuma versus Urien
And finally:
Yang or Akuma vs everyone else
In every case the person on the left has easy ways of destroying
his or her opponent while the person on the right has to work harder
(read: parry better) to win. In some cases, like Yang vs Hugo, all the
parrys in the world don't really matter; you can parry all of the Yang low
shorts in the world and Hugo can't retaliate effectively from the right
range.
> and simplicity. Of course it has its drawbacks
>with parry-fests, a clown for a boss, and lack of drama and story. But
>beggers can't be choosers.
Don't forget that simplicity is this game's substitute for
strategy, and that the parry-fests are precisely what makes the gameplay
stink. Oh, and the "3in1" combos are really stupid (special->super)
because they make it too easy to combo risk free.
>(sigh) if only I was given an oppurtunity...
Since you must have a comp. to type these messages, you're most of the way
there. Metrowerks Codewarrior (macOS) and Visual Studio (PC) aren't that
expensive and come with the necessary docs and manuals. All it takes is
time and effort.
--
Shaunlar
than toss the baby out with the bath water, what can be done to keep the parry
ability while not making it abusable?
Ultima
Rambling factor: Average
Warning: Read at your own discretion
************************************
I wrote:
>
> In article <01be10ca$3535a960$e0798bd0@chungo>, chu...@netvigator.com says...
> >
> >anybody play this game?
> >why don't talk about this?
> >it's great.
>
> To many people are captivated with SFA3's "gimmicks"(ie "ISM's" )
> as well as it being the latest SF product off CAPCOM's assembly line.
I take it this means you don't like SFA3?
[SLASH]
> Personally, the SF3 series is best game CAPCOM produced due to it's
> gameplay, graphics, balance, and simplicity. Of course it has its drawbacks with parry-fests, a clown for a boss, and lack of drama and story. But beggers can't be choosers.
I have to disagree here. SF3 wasn't balanced by any stretch of the
imagination. Balnce is improved in 2I, but you still have gross
mismatches, and Akuma/Ibuki beat everybody (hell, Ibuki beats 3
characters with one button alone >:( ). The animation is uncontested,
but the actual drawings themselves are subject to debate. Personally I
like some characters sprites but not others. Background are dull, though
were improved somewhat in 2I.
The main thing about the SF3 series is that, gameplay BS aside, it gets
boring VERY quickly. SF3 wasn't worth playing after a month, and I got
tired of 2I after 6 weeks. 3I needs to have some drastic changes for
people to consider it anything other than flavour of the month. Unless
I'm mistaken, A3 is getting a hell of a lot more play time than SF3 and
2I did combined (in the places where SF is still popular, anyway -
somebody correct me if I'm wrong).
--
Ultima
http://members.xoom.com/Ultima1 - The Street Fighter RPG Manifesto!
http://members.xoom.com/ShinUltima - U's Ultimate Rambling Page
"If an arcade doesn't have a version of SF or SS in it, then it's not an
arcade"
Dave Connoy
> Necro vs Alex (also worse in 1st impact)
>
> In every case the person on the left has easy ways of destroying
> his or her opponent while the person on the right has to work harder
> (read: parry better) to win.
I disagree with this particular one. During the short time Seth and I
played SF3 (the original) here regularly, his Necro wasted my Alex until I
found out that Alex's F+Strong chop tags pretty much all of Necro's limbs.
So then I was able to win against Seth most of the time by just tapping
F+Strong randomly to stuff his limbs and PBing/HBing him when he got
frustrated. As Seth is a much better SF player than me, it should not
have been this easy for me. Granted, this doesn't take into account
parries, but when you consider that Alex now doesn't even need to parry to
shut down Necro's offense, then Necro becomes the one that needs to "work
harder (read: parry better)" to win. I dunno how this matchup works in
2nd Impact.
Dave Connoy
con...@students.uiuc.edu
Ace-ISM
teck...@mbox4.singnet.com.sg wrote in message
<3650191B...@mbox4.singnet.com.sg>...
>alpha 3 is the 2nd best...says who....it sucks throughtly....2nd impact
>was much better....Vega's air throw is extremely cheap(95% damage),
Correction: L-ISM Vega's Izna drop is extremely cheap (99% damage). But this
is most likely a bug and not to be taken as an "official" feature.
Kairin
>still has her easy combos,
If that's Karin you are talking about, what the hell? Now KARIN is cheap
now? It takes skill to play a good Karin effectively. And no scrub that I've
ever heard of can pull off one of Karin's extremely damaging Rekka_Hopkick
into juggle super. Now if you were talking about L-ISM Karin and her throw
... then well ... I have no arguement of the cheeziness of that =).
Ace-ISM
(Karin's Defender)
Kwy...@usa.net
"Milo D. Cooper" <mi...@milos-chalkboard.net> wrote:
> > sol t kim wrote:
> >> Kwy...@usa.net wrote:
> >>> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
> >>>
> >>> ducking jabs are stupid, YunYang still has his easy chains, and Alpha
> >>> Three is the second best fighting game that Capcom have ever made.
> >>
> >> Elena is not useless. Interestingly enough, I've racked up an impressive win
> >> streak with the Storm-lookalike against decent players who just couldn't
> >> figure out my style of playing her. Maybe if I were forced to play against a
> >> master, I'd get my ass kicked quickly, but I do well enough with her. Now
> >> Necro, OTOH...
> >
> > that enough to convince you how bad she is?
>
> And that's not the worst of it. Her uppercut kick has the same
> poor priority (for a special move) that it did in the first SF3 game,
> and thanks to parries, two of her other three specials are almost
> entirely useless. That leaves her with an unthreatening low spin
> kick and normal attacks that have too many frames of animation to
> allow her to compete against most of the other characters, whose
> moves come out much quicker. Elena is ranked dead last by many
> of the best Japanese and American gamers and magazines.
>
> /|__Milo D. Cooper________________EverQuest character modeler__|\
> \| http://www.milos-chalkboard.net http://www.everquest.com |/
>
Which makes the fact that I have beaten many people with her seem even worse.
I've always had problems with RYU's (Thanks for the explanation), but I seem
to do well enough with her.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
A wiff animation; ie you do a parry and they don't attack, you sit there
for a small amount of time ala Karin.
--
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Dave Connoy <con...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Nov 1998, Shaun Patrick Mcisaac wrote:
>> Necro vs Alex (also worse in 1st impact)
>> In every case the person on the left has easy ways of destroying
>> his or her opponent while the person on the right has to work harder
>> (read: parry better) to win.
>
>I disagree with this particular one. During the short time Seth and I
>played SF3 (the original) here regularly, his Necro wasted my Alex until I
In 1st impact, you couldn't retaliate against a drill, even if you
parryed. When he gets close he has bigger combos than alex (some of which
do 100%) and can do them quite easily. F+strong is nice but unfortunately
it's not even close to enough.
--
Shaunlar
>for a small amount of time ala Karin.
>--
What if an attacker knows a parry is coming, would it be a good idea to have a
parry counter buffered with your attacks? In Tekken 3, we all know that the
proper response to a reversal is a "chicken" counter reversal. With SFA, Ryu
might parry an Akuma s.roundhouse and attack with say, a low forward/fireball,
but Akuma counters the parry, hops above the sweep and throws down an air
fireball or dive kick.
How about that option?
John Lin
I don't think this would work, when you're parried, you're stuck in your
move animation (even if it's just a split second jab) and can't do
anything. I personally liked the SF3 series, but maybe cause I never met
any of these god-like parriers. I'd like to find one someday, Chicago?
-John
Shaunlar
>> might parry an Akuma s.roundhouse and attack with say, a low
>forward/fireball,
>> but Akuma counters the parry, hops above the sweep and throws down an air
>> fireball or dive kick.
>> How about that option?
>
>I don't think this would work, when you're parried, you're stuck in your
>move animation (even if it's just a split second jab) and can't do
>anything.
I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I was talking about a possible feature
for SFA4. If, for example, a Ryu player could cancel into an evasive attack
off of Ken's successful parry, maybe the system wouldn't be abused so much, but
it'd still be useful.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Shaunlar <shau...@aol.com> wrote:
>>A wiff animation; ie you do a parry and they don't attack, you sit there
>>for a small amount of time ala Karin.
>parry counter buffered with your attacks? In Tekken 3, we all know that the
You can't reverse parrys, basically.
--
I
>
>In article <72qd9h$dj2$1...@excalibur.flash.net>, I <I...@I.COM> wrote:
>>In article <01be10ca$3535a960$e0798bd0@chungo>, chu...@netvigator.com says...
>>
>>as well as it being the latest SF product off CAPCOM's assembly line.
>
> Most ppl. just pick one or two isms for a character and then are
>done with it. Besides, SF3 had this with the SuperArtSelect system. The
>only new things (to SF) are the blue blocks, air recoveries, and the
>damage reduction. And two of those things don't see the light of play
>very often..
It becomes tired though. With every reincarnation of SF (how many flavors
are there now?) they add a new element to their formula. Same game but with
different characters, graphics, engine, and gizmos.
><ZONK>
>>And the cycle continues...
>
> Not always. 2i has LONG since been abandoned in favor of either
>A2 or MSHvsSF (even before MvC came along).
>
>>Personally, the SF3 series is best game CAPCOM produced due to it's
>>gameplay, graphics, balance,
>
> Please, do explain how even a *decent* Ryu and Akuma can EVER lose
>to even a masterful Elena. If elena does anything, they press forward
>kick, and they got FREE DAMAGE. Elena has to super to beat this, and
>spinning beat, or perhaps brave dance at that. In 2i she *might* be able
>to beat it with an KKK scratch wheel, not sure.
Please? Are implying that SF3 is not balanced? Interesting...
> Also explain how the following matches are "balanced"
> Alex vs Sean
> Necro vs Elena
> Ibuki vs Alex
> Oro vs Alex (and it was worse in 1st impact)
> Necro vs Alex (also worse in 1st impact)
> Yun, Yang, Ibuki, or Akuma versus Hugo
> Yun, Yang, Ibuki, or Akuma versus Urien
> And finally:
> Yang or Akuma vs everyone else
Are these all the "miss-matches"? Let's rehash the character matrix again.
There are 13 characters in SF32i, so to find all possible matchups minus the
duplicates 13+12+11+10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1 = 91 . Now subtracting same character
matches 91 - 13 = 78
1 - matchup
0 - duplicate(not counted)
ARKSIEADNOHUY
0111111111111A
0011111111111R
0001111111111K
0000111111111S
0000011111111I
0000001111111E
0000000111111A
0000000011111D
0000000001111N
0000000000111O
0000000000011H
0000000000001U
0000000000000Y
Now, noting the "miss-matches" with *
ARKSIEADNOHUY
0************A
001111111111*R
000111111111*K
000011*11111*S
000001*11111*I
00000011*111*E
00000001**11*A
000000001111*D
000000000111*N
000000000011*O
000000000001*H
000000000000*U
0000000000000Y
Therefore, according to you there are 29 "miss-matches" out of 78.
This computes to ~37%, a failing score to justify your stand that
the matches are unbalanced.
However, are your assertions accurate? You claim Akuma and Yun/Yang
miss-match everyone. This would need to be reconsidered. These two
characters bring the score way down. Besides, a couple of over-powered
characters does not mean the game is unbalanced overall.
Feel free to reinstate your claims or add/remove "miss-matches".
(use the graph)
Anybody.
Let's get to the bottom of this...
> Don't forget that simplicity is this game's substitute for
>strategy, and that the parry-fests are precisely what makes the gameplay
>stink. Oh, and the "3in1" combos are really stupid (special->super)
>because they make it too easy to combo risk free.
Parrying was a great idea, but the learning curve was short. It became
abused because it is easy to do. This changed gameplay entirely from just
blocking to parrying with little risk. Why jump when you can play
rock-n-sock'em robots with your opponent.
>>(sigh) if only I was given an oppurtunity...
>
>Since you must have a comp. to type these messages, you're most of the way
>there. Metrowerks Codewarrior (macOS) and Visual Studio (PC) aren't that
>expensive and come with the necessary docs and manuals. All it takes is
>time and effort.
I have the same problem as you. Time. Thanks for the info though...
Lantis
> Wow. I didn't realize the power of the parry. My next question is, rather
> than toss the baby out with the bath water, what can be done to keep the parry
> ability while not making it abusable?
A miss animation for the parry would be nice...sort of ala Tekken
3.
***********************************************
* Kailu Lantis *
* The Knight whom protects Justice *
* *
* PSX game of the month: Bushido Blade 2 *
* Neo game of the month: Pulstar *
* Arcade game of the month: Soul Calibur *
* Anime of the month: Ursuei Yetsura *
* *
* "I must admit, a game to see who lives or *
* dies is magnificent..." *
***********************************************
Lantis
> > Personally, the SF3 series is best game CAPCOM produced due to it's
> > gameplay, graphics, balance, and simplicity. Of course it has its drawbacks with parry-fests, a clown for a boss, and lack of drama and story. But beggers can't be choosers.
>
> I have to disagree here. SF3 wasn't balanced by any stretch of the
> imagination. Balnce is improved in 2I, but you still have gross
> mismatches, and Akuma/Ibuki beat everybody (hell, Ibuki beats 3
> characters with one button alone >:( ). The animation is uncontested,
> but the actual drawings themselves are subject to debate. Personally I
> like some characters sprites but not others. Background are dull, though
> were improved somewhat in 2I.
Don't forget your own theory, Ultima...Ryu beats Alex with ONE button,
and Ryu and Akuma can beat Elena with ONE button. Oh well, so much for
strategy...:)
> The main thing about the SF3 series is that, gameplay BS aside, it gets
> boring VERY quickly. SF3 wasn't worth playing after a month, and I got
> tired of 2I after 6 weeks. 3I needs to have some drastic changes for
> people to consider it anything other than flavour of the month. Unless
> I'm mistaken, A3 is getting a hell of a lot more play time than SF3 and
> 2I did combined (in the places where SF is still popular, anyway -
> somebody correct me if I'm wrong).
I agree. SF 3 and Second Impact never got anybody's longlast attention
(at least, not with everybody), and since everybody's mind was still in
awe with the Alpha series, everybody took for granted that SF 3 was
bullshit, and just thrashed it and preferred to wait for Alpha 3 to come
out. Now, after two SF 3 games, I bet nobody is liek HELL anxious for
Third Impact to arrive (except for the ones who DID like Second Impact),
so I guess the SF universe is facing some serious dillema up ahead, *if*
Capcom doesn't put some science into Third Impact (which I think they
*will*, since nobody can commit the same mistake three times...oh, I
forgot Marvel vs. Capcom. OK, discard that...:/)
LVJeff
>
> um, Vampire Savior had alot more crap in it to play with but the play got old
> and dry alot quicker(too much emphasis on boring chain combos..)... NW was a
> better game (actually had incentive to land a special move)...
Heh, I'd like to give you a debate on that one :-) VS is undoubtably the
best Vampire game, in my opinion. I'll go into details when I have time...
--LVJeff
--
==========================___________________________________ ... . . .
| from LVJeff | Kerim Bey: "But I am already in your debt."
| ale...@ucla.edu | James Bond: "How can a friend be in debt?"
========================== - From Russia with Love
Milo D. Cooper
>> BionicTuna wrote:
>>
>> um, Vampire Savior had alot more crap in it to play with but the play got old
>> and dry alot quicker(too much emphasis on boring chain combos..)... NW was a
>> better game (actually had incentive to land a special move)...
>
> Heh, I'd like to give you a debate on that one :-) VS is undoubtably the
> best Vampire game, in my opinion. I'll go into details when I have time...
Why bother? It's a huge duh that VS is the best of the series;
anyone who doesn't acknowledge this isn't going to be convinced of
the fact.
--
/|__Milo D. Cooper__________________EverQuest character modeler__|\
\| http://www.milos-chalkboard.net/ http://www.everquest.com/ |/
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
>In article <F2Juv...@midway.uchicago.edu>, spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu says...
>>In article <72qd9h$dj2$1...@excalibur.flash.net>, I <I...@I.COM> wrote:
>>>In article <01be10ca$3535a960$e0798bd0@chungo>, chu...@netvigator.com says...
>> Alex vs Sean
>> Necro vs Elena
>> Ibuki vs Alex
>> Oro vs Alex (and it was worse in 1st impact)
>> Necro vs Alex (also worse in 1st impact)
>> Yun, Yang, Ibuki, or Akuma versus Hugo
>> Yun, Yang, Ibuki, or Akuma versus Urien
>> And finally:
>> Yang or Akuma vs everyone else
>
>0************1A 1-12
>00111*111111**R 9-3
>00011*111111**K 8-3
>00001**11111**S 6-4
>00000***11*1*1I 3-5
>000000*****1**E 1-7
>00000001**11**A 3-4
>000000001111**D 4-2
>000000000111**N 3-2
>000000000011**O 2-2
>000000000001**H 1-2
>000000000000**U 0-2
>0000000000000*Y 0-1
00000000000000Y(un) ..
That gives:
12 3 3 4 5 7 4 2 2 2 2 2 1 = 49 unbalanced matches
1 9 8 6 3 1 3 4 3 2 1 = 37 balanced matches
Which is more than 1/2. Keep in mind that I only added the glaring ones,
for the most part.
>Therefore, according to you there are 29 "miss-matches" out of 78.
>This computes to ~37%, a failing score to justify your stand that
>the matches are unbalanced.
You forgot to include Yang and Yun as seperate characters (and they play
quite differently, as far as 2i goes). 1/3++ of the matches is more than
enough to jusitfy it.
>However, are your assertions accurate? You claim Akuma and Yun/Yang
>miss-match everyone. This would need to be reconsidered. These two
>characters bring the score way down. Besides, a couple of over-powered
>characters does not mean the game is unbalanced overall.
Even in the middle tier, the characters tend to mismatch frequently.
Elena gets killed by everyone except Urien, and Urien's not far behind,
losing pretty badly to everyone BUT Elena, though not as badly.
And yah, Yang really beats everyone, and Akuma pretty much beats everyone
except Yang...
--
André Carmona
This was a real discution!! =)
ni8...@hotmail.com
ale...@ucla.edu.nospam wrote:
>Heh, I'd like to give you a debate on that one :-) VS is undoubtably
>the best Vampire game, in my opinion. I'll go into details when I have time...
> --LVJeff
No, actually VH is the best Vampire game. It was the most balanced one too
(yeah right Pyron and Bishamon were overpowered, But not impossible to beat).
If Vampire Savior was the best, then my friend Capcom would not have changed
(actually it's more like returned) the VS gameplay system back like VH again
in VS2 and VH2. the only things that remained were the Dark Forces (which
required two EX Levels, not one like VS), and the Advance Guard. That would
suggest that alot of the die-hard Vampire games fans were not happy with VS.
Wanna know one bad thing about VH....No Jedah :)
Ni8Hawk <ni8...@hotmail.com>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"On a mountain of skulls, in a castle of pain I sat on a throne of blood what
was will be no more"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BionicTuna
>anyone who doesn't acknowledge this isn't going to be convinced of
>the fact.
>
it had nicer visuals and jedah but it seemed dryer than VH, no need to learn
cool tactics if you could land some brain-dead chain combos.. i thought for
sure VS was going to be the best until i actually played it for a few months..
i haven't touched it in a loong time.. (just keep going back to sfz2 : }
-bt-
NaUtiCaZuN
>except Yang...
I know about Akuma already, but what is so great about Yang? He doesn't really
have any big combos, just some simple ones. Am i missing something here?
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
He has the best move in the game, his low short. Yang gets over 20% every
time he lands a low short. I'd be happy if my character's low roundhouse
did that much, but Yang does it with a move that is unpunishable even if
you parry it.
Add to that the best anti-air in the game (better than all the non-supers,
at least).
Add to that the fastest normals in the game (or at least, right behind
his sister in 2i scrubbiness, Ibuki).
Add to that the best D,D+P overhead.
Add to that throws that combo into supers.
Add to that multiple combos starting from jabs and shorts doing more than
1/5.
Add to that the "safest" block damage in the game (insofar as it exists in
2i).
Add to that high priority moves in general.
Then only ones Yang doesn't completely destroy are Ibuki and Yun, and
maybe Akuma, but in each match he just has too much going for him.
--
o_ev...@hotmail.com
nauti...@aol.com (NaUtiCaZuN) wrote:
> >And yah, Yang really beats everyone, and Akuma pretty much beats everyone
> >except Yang...
>
> I know about Akuma already, but what is so great about Yang? He doesn't
really
> have any big combos, just some simple ones. Am i missing something here?
Fighting is not all about combos, contrary to popular belief. (That sounds
strange coming from me, huh?) :)
Yang (still) has pretty much the best super in the game...Tenshin Senkyutai.
Sure, it's a TAD slower than it was in SF3, but it's still one of the best
Super Arts, if not the best SA, in the game. Plus, he has easy and SAFE
combos...mainly with that Rekka-ken wanna-be move and his crouching
short-forward chain. All he really needs to do is stay on the ground and
poke with that chain, occasionally faking and whiffing to draw missed
parries. When he knocks Akuma down, provided Akuma doesn't have meter (of
course), he can crouch over him and jab like mad...and Akuma can do nothing
except a reversal DP. If you switch between jabbing, throwing, and the
command throw (which should be promptly followed by either crouch forward, EX
Rekka-ken/Tenshin Senkyutai), you'll take control of the match easily. If
Akuma becomes offensive, pick your spots wisely and stick in the appropriate
move, which will usually be a Senkyutai (Rolling Kick) followed by a move
that juggles well (like, say, Tenshin Senkyutai). Speaking of juggles:
Stand forward, forward Senkyutai, Tenshin Senkyutai.
Great anti-air juggle. If you're in the corner, insert a standing strong XX
Tenshin Senkyutai.
If the Akuma you fight loves air FBs, you'll win easily thanks to the Rolling
Kicks. If the Akuma you fight is smart, you'll have to poke like mad and fake
well. Crouch strong is a good poke due to it's priority...and don't forget
about the Palm Strike and stand roundhouse. Crouch forward will probably be
your most used move. Don't neglect stand fierce, though...it's a good move.
--
Onaje Everett
o_ev...@hotmail.com
Go here!!! --> http://www.gamefaqs.com/
http://millenia-bcs.com/
LVJeff
>
> In article <365309E2...@ucla.edu.nospam>,
> ale...@ucla.edu.nospam wrote:
>
> >Heh, I'd like to give you a debate on that one :-) VS is undoubtably
> >the best Vampire game, in my opinion. I'll go into details when I have time...
>
> > --LVJeff
>
> No, actually VH is the best Vampire game. It was the most balanced one too
> (yeah right Pyron and Bishamon were overpowered, But not impossible to beat).
> If Vampire Savior was the best, then my friend Capcom would not have changed
> (actually it's more like returned) the VS gameplay system back like VH again
> in VS2 and VH2. the only things that remained were the Dark Forces (which
> required two EX Levels, not one like VS), and the Advance Guard. That would
> suggest that alot of the die-hard Vampire games fans were not happy with VS.
> Wanna know one bad thing about VH....No Jedah :)
I think a lot of Vampire fans were disenchanted with VS, and I can
understand why. They took away three characters, changed a bunch of the others'
moves, and drastically overhauled the round/damage system.
Overall, though, the game was a better, fairer, and more strategic game
than VH. It also didn't have VH's game-killing flaws. Now, the matter of the
damage guage system and the round system being better or worse is a matter of
opinion, true: I like the white bar-recovery system, but would've preferred
rounds to the KI-style round system. But neither of these are considerable
weaknesses.
VH has two big big problems: super pursuits and certain guard reversals.
Super pursuits did way too much damage and were practically guaranteed for many
characters. Talbain never needed to use his meter for anything else, his super
pursuit did so much. And any character with a fireball/reverse fb code for a GR
was far too priveleged. Raptor and Victor could use their GR's as a sort of
parry-like counter. Rikuo and Felicia could use their GR's like Alpha
Counters. Rikuo was especially sick, since his GR would freeze you, then he
could lop off a third of your energy with a chain.
The character balance was pretty gross in VH. Yes, Bishamon and Pyron were
the best, but there were other very powerful characters, and the ones who
weren't were pretty weak. Certain people had simplistic tactics: Talbain and
Morrigan had a brainless dash-uppercut/dash-throw guessing game.
VS has a great balance, and much of that is due to the energy recovery
system, but there was also more thought put into the characters' moves and
priorities. The only totally overpowered bastard in VS is Demitri; take him
out, and everyone can contend (well, except maybe Huitzil in the home version).
Yours,
LVJeff
>
> > Why bother? It's a huge duh that VS is the best of the series;
> >anyone who doesn't acknowledge this isn't going to be convinced of
> >the fact.
> >
> it had nicer visuals and jedah but it seemed dryer than VH, no need to learn
> cool tactics if you could land some brain-dead chain combos..
I find that most characters retain a pretty good balance between using
chains and special moves in the game. IMO, VS strategy is more about approach,
though; the chains and moves are the reward for the successful approach/attack
strategy (or as one strategy guide calls it, the "rush").
I
Let's be thorough and consider all the matches. We also need to
reconsider your proposed "unbalanced matches", since some of us draw our
"rankings" for our personal experiences. For example, Sean and Alex are not
as "unbalanced" as you think.
First, Akuma is the obvious overpowered (hidden & code-accessible) boss character,
so his unbalanced matches are to be expected. Do this mean that we can dismiss
Akuma in our "balance matrix"? To properly determine if a game is in balance
overall with the average selectable characters, we would have to or he would
skew the results.
>>Therefore, according to you there are 29 "miss-matches" out of 78.
>>This computes to ~37%, a failing score to justify your stand that
>>the matches are unbalanced.
>You forgot to include Yang and Yun as seperate characters (and they play
>quite differently, as far as 2i goes).
This is questionable. Should we then have triplets for each character
since their super art will make them play differently? Also, since CAPCOM
intended for Yun/Yang to have the same character select box, this suggests
that they(being twins) share the same identifier.
Now to go over your other noted matches...
>>> Alex vs Sean
I disagree. This is a good matchup.
>>> Necro vs Elena
Agreed.
>>> Ibuki vs Alex
I disagree. Alex should be more respected here.
>>> Oro vs Alex (and it was worse in 1st impact)
I disagree. Again, Alex does fairly well against many characters.
>>> Necro vs Alex (also worse in 1st impact)
Agreed. Necro has the advantage (shades of Dhalsim vs. Zangief)
>>> Yun, Yang, Ibuki, or Akuma versus Hugo
Agreed.
>>> Yun, Yang, Ibuki, or Akuma versus Urien
Agreed.
>>> And finally:
>>> Yang or Akuma vs everyone else
Akuma, of course. Yang debatable(our matrix is concering SF32i), but
I'll go ahead and tentively agree.
Thus,
X - disregard
* - mismatches
1 - matchup
0 - duplicate
ARKSIEADNOHUY
0XXXXXXXXXXXXA
00111*111111*R 9-2
00011*111111*K 8-2
00001*111111*S 7-2
00000*1*11*1*I 4-4
000000*****1*E 1-6
00000001**11*A 3-3
000000001111*D 4-1
000000000111*N 3-1
000000000011*O 2-1
000000000001*H 1-1
000000000000*U 0-1
0000000000000Y
balanced = 9 8 7 4 1 3 4 3 2 1 0 = 41
unbalanced = 2 2 2 4 6 3 1 1 1 1 1 = 24
Therefore, with 65 matches,
41/65 = x/100, x = ~63.07% in favor of balance
24/65 = x/100, x = ~36.90% in favor of unbalance
Margin of error can fluxilate with 2-4 matches going either way.
In any case, calling SF32i "unbalanced" falls way short of reality.
Just for grins, throwing in Akuma(1-12),
balanced = 1 9 8 7 4 1 3 4 3 2 1 0 = 42
unbalanced = 12 2 2 2 4 6 3 1 1 1 1 1 = 36
78 matches,
42/78 = x/100, x = ~53.84% in favor of balance
36/78 = x/100, x = ~46.15% in favor of unbalance
Still barely favors balance.
That's about 10% difference if we do not include Akuma. Just to give
you an idea how one character can skew (or screw) the results.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
>>>In article <F2Juv...@midway.uchicago.edu>, spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu says...
>>>>In article <72qd9h$dj2$1...@excalibur.flash.net>, I <I...@I.COM> wrote:
>>>>>In article <01be10ca$3535a960$e0798bd0@chungo>, chu...@netvigator.com says...
>
character,
>so his unbalanced matches are to be expected. Do this mean that we can
dismiss
>Akuma in our "balance matrix"? To properly determine if a game is in
balance
>overall with the average selectable characters, we would have to or he
would
>skew the results.
Fine.
>>You forgot to include Yang and Yun as seperate characters (and they play
>>quite differently, as far as 2i goes).
>
>This is questionable. Should we then have triplets for each character
>since their super art will make them play differently? Also, since CAPCOM
>intended for Yun/Yang to have the same character select box, this suggests
>that they(being twins) share the same identifier.
Not in 2i, where they have seperate supers, boxes, and so forth.
They really do play quite differently, unlike the ism or SAS.
>Now to go over your other noted matches...
>>>> Alex vs Sean
>I disagree. This is a good matchup.
Sean cannot effectively deal with Alex's standing forward, and when he
does get in, HBs and PBs get him right out at a large cost of life. Sean
cannot effectively poke at Alex, who can poke at him, neither one can jump
at the other for the most part, and Alex does more damage per hit.
>>>> Ibuki vs Alex
>I disagree. Alex should be more respected here.
"Ibuki is a hitman hired to kill Alex." - Zvi-David Barkochba
Alex can't deal with Ibuki's jabs and shorts, both of which combo
into either infinites or 45% damage combos.
>>>> Oro vs Alex (and it was worse in 1st impact)
>I disagree. Again, Alex does fairly well against many characters.
Alex cannot beat Oro's air attacks. With ANYTHING, even supers. Oro can
jump straight up and down all day for free once he gets any type of lead
and NONE of alex's attacks will hit him out.
>24/65 = x/100, x = ~36.90% in favor of unbalance
>
>That's about 10% difference if we do not include Akuma. Just to give
>you an idea how one character can skew (or screw) the results.
Add the Yun and Yang difference, both of which are selectable, and it goes
to over 1/2.
And I don't think that 65% balanced, 35% unbalanced is an overall
balanced game, by any stretch. It's not a matter of having 51% balanced
matches, it's a matter of being able to pick any particular character and
be able to have a decent fight against all but maybe 1, 2 or perhaps even
3 characters that are mismatches.
2i doesn't do that.
I didn't list "kills Elena and Urien" for everyone who gets it, nor did I
always list loses to Yang. These are the additionaly lost matches or won
matches, so pretty much everyone starts with 2-3 kills/loses anyway.
Akuma:
Big mismatches against the other members of the Clan Shotokan and the
lower tier. Can kill Elena with standing forward alone, largely.
Alex:
Kills Elena and Sean, dies to Necro, Ibuki, and Oro.
Dudley:
Kills Alex. Forget most of the others for dud.
Elena:
Dies to everyone but Urien, who also sucks donkey dick. Elena loses 0-10
to Ryu, Ibuki, and Akuma, I think, and maybe even Alex. Abject garbage.
Hugo:
Dies to Yun and Yang, horribly. Also loses to Akuma, and to Ken, oddly
enough. Dies to Ibuki.
Ibuki:
Kills the following people with ONE BUTTON, or at least can come damned
close to it: Alex, Hugo, Dudley. Kills Elena with one button. Can
redizzy Hugo off a jab. Oh my *%&^, does she kill Alex.
Ken: Kills Hugo.
Necro:
Kills Alex.
Oro:
Kills Alex, worse than Necro does.
Ryu:
Kills Elena with one button.
Sean:
Loses to Alex, Ryu, and Akuma. Loses to Oro, if memory serves, though I'm
not sure.
Urien:
Sucks nearly as hard as Elena. Only good move/combo is low fierce into ES
headbutt, repeat, which isn't nearly enough. The reflector isn't enough
to save him, either, so don't bother. Loses to *lots* of ppl., though I
don't recall the precise extent, it was very near the one-button-kills-me
that several people could do with elena.
Yang:
Kills virtually everyone in a 8.5-1.5 LANDSLIDE, but does not, to my
knowledge, have any 10-0 you-suck-if-you-cant-win matches. Only has
matches approaching decent (but not getting there) with Yun and Ibuki.
Yun:
Not as bad as Yang, thankfully. Still eats up a lot of characters 6.5-3.5
or worse. Has decent matches with Ibuki, IIRC, and a few others here and
there.
So basically you get a good fight *SOME* of the time when you pick two
people who are not in the top four nor the bottom two. The six extreme
charcters will destroy / get destroyed as appropriate. So then you're
looking at:
Ryu Ken Alex Dudley Necro Sean Hugo Oro
Which looks like this:
ADHKNORS
A-*11**1*
D*-111111
H11-**111
K11*-1111
N*1*1-*11
O*111*-11
R111111-1
S*111111-
So you've got Ryu, Sean, Ken, and Dudley with minimal number of
mismatches, Hugo & Oro with a pair, and Necro and Alex with three and
four respectively.
So when you exclude nearly half the characters in the game, you finally
get something with a pretty decent amount of balance in it, 1:4
unbalanced:total.
Wonderful.
I'll stick with A3, thank you, where at least the mismatches involve
something more than repeatedly hitting standing forward, jab, or low
strong.
--
Mark Zedaker
<ryo_...@NoSpam.club-internet.fr> wrote:
> More fun than parry into ShinShoryuken is parry into Shungokusatsu .....
Ah, you play Akuma. You WOULD like SF3:2i, then, wouldn't you?
--
Mark Zedaker
ch...@home.com
André Carmona
It's just that this version of the raging demon is awesome..
Mark Zedaker a écrit dans le message ...
Mark Zedaker
(Shaun Patrick Mcisaac) wrote:
> In article <732fim$nak$1...@excalibur.flash.net>, I <I...@I.COM> wrote:
> >Now to go over your other noted matches...
> >>>> Alex vs Sean
> >I disagree. This is a good matchup.
>
> Sean cannot effectively deal with Alex's standing forward, and when he
> does get in, HBs and PBs get him right out at a large cost of life. Sean
> cannot effectively poke at Alex, who can poke at him, neither one can jump
> at the other for the most part, and Alex does more damage per hit.
I remember playing this match probably *hundreds* of times of times
with Bob Painter, and we argued it blue. This is a hard fight for both
characters, but Sean has the (small) advantage in this fight.
Whoever the better player is will win this fight.
(I can't believe I'm delurking for this, BTW)
--
Mark Zedaker
ch...@home.com
Akuma99999
>time he lands a low short. I'd be happy if my character's low roundhouse
>did that much, but Yang does it with a move that is unpunishable even if
>you parry it.
>
>Add to that the best anti-air in the game (better than all the non-supers,
>at least).
>
>Add to that the fastest normals in the game (or at least, right behind
>his sister in 2i scrubbiness, Ibuki).
>
>Add to that the best D,D+P overhead.
>
>Add to that throws that combo into supers.
>
>Add to that multiple combos starting from jabs and shorts doing more than
>1/5.
>
>Add to that the "safest" block damage in the game (insofar as it exists in
>2i).
>
>Add to that high priority moves in general.
>
>Then only ones Yang doesn't completely destroy are Ibuki and Yun, and
>maybe Akuma, but in each match he just has too much going for him.
Which of these advantages does Yun share with his bro?
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Akuma99999 <akuma...@aol.com> wrote:
>>He has the best move in the game, his low short. Yang gets over 20% every
>>time he lands a low short. I'd be happy if my character's low roundhouse
>>did that much, but Yang does it with a move that is unpunishable even if
>>you parry it.
Yun doesn't have this.
>>Add to that the best anti-air in the game (better than all the non-supers,
>>at least).
Yun sort of doesn't have this.. Well, yun can combo into bodychecks, while
Yang can go into the (Forward and/or Tenshin) Senkyutai.
>>Add to that the fastest normals in the game (or at least, right behind
>>his sister in 2i scrubbiness, Ibuki).
Yun has this
>>Add to that the best D,D+P overhead.
Yun has this
>>Add to that throws that combo into supers.
Yun might have this, not sure.
>>Add to that multiple combos starting from jabs and shorts doing more than
>>1/5.
I don't think he has as many, and they're more easily punished.
>>Add to that the "safest" block damage in the game (insofar as it exists in
>>2i).
Doesn't have this.
>>Add to that high priority moves in general.
Has it.
>>Then only ones Yang doesn't completely destroy are Ibuki and Yun, and
>>maybe Akuma, but in each match he just has too much going for him.
>Which of these advantages does Yun share with his bro?
Listed above.
--
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Mark Zedaker <ch...@home.com> wrote:
>In article <F2pHK...@midway.uchicago.edu>, spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu
>(Shaun Patrick Mcisaac) wrote:
>> >Now to go over your other noted matches...
>> >>>> Alex vs Sean
>> >I disagree. This is a good matchup.
>> Sean cannot effectively deal with Alex's standing forward, and when he
>> does get in, HBs and PBs get him right out at a large cost of life. Sean
>> cannot effectively poke at Alex, who can poke at him, neither one can jump
>> at the other for the most part, and Alex does more damage per hit.
>with Bob Painter, and we argued it blue. This is a hard fight for both
>characters, but Sean has the (small) advantage in this fight.
All that Sean has that will beat the standing forward will get him
killed if blocked. The end.
--
Castellan
> VS has a great balance, and much of that is due to the energy recovery
>system, but there was also more thought put into the characters' moves and
>priorities. The only totally overpowered bastard in VS is Demitri; take him
>out, and everyone can contend (well, except maybe Huitzil in the home version).
I'd say Jedah is pretty f*ckin' overpowered, too - his "drag 'em into
hell" super is a guaranteed 25% or so damage if you force 'em to block a saw
blade and go immediately into it. Talk about a pain in the ass.
--- ---
Douglas L. Erickson - ECN Computer Publications and Training Specialist
mail to: dou...@mailhost.ecn.ou.edu --- http://www.ecn.ou.edu/~douglas
SegaNet: http://www.seganet.com/ for Sega-related info ICQ#: 12822495
--- ECN does not, in any way, sponsor or endorse my rabid opinions. ---
Kuro
>In article <F2pHK...@midway.uchicago.edu>, spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu
>(Shaun Patrick Mcisaac) wrote:
>
>> In article <732fim$nak$1...@excalibur.flash.net>, I <I...@I.COM> wrote:
>> >Now to go over your other noted matches...
>> >>>> Alex vs Sean
>> >I disagree. This is a good matchup.
>>
>> Sean cannot effectively deal with Alex's standing forward, and when he
>> does get in, HBs and PBs get him right out at a large cost of life. Sean
>> cannot effectively poke at Alex, who can poke at him, neither one can jump
>> at the other for the most part, and Alex does more damage per hit.
>
> I remember playing this match probably *hundreds* of times of times
>with Bob Painter, and we argued it blue. This is a hard fight for both
>characters, but Sean has the (small) advantage in this fight.
>
> Whoever the better player is will win this fight.
Let's not start this again...
I've talked to Alex Valle, James Chen, bruiner, and BBH about this and
they all agree Sean has a very big advantage in this matchup.
--
Bob Painter
black...@aznet.net
Mary Ellen Peterson
I recenly bought sf alpha 2 and was wondering if any one could please post all the
moves for all the characters. I am having a problem learning how to play.
Richard Chang
Richard.
Mary Ellen Peterson wrote in message
<739l6a$ie0$1...@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu>...
Milo D. Cooper
>> Kuro wrote:
>>
>> Let's not start this again...
>
#$!*. Just when it was getting good. I was looking forward to the
umpteenth Painter vs. Zedaker "Alex vs. Sean" argument. You guys have
disappointed me.
Ultima
[Sean vs. Alex]
> I can't believe I'm arguing this game again. I can't believe I'm
> arguing this FIGHT again. I can't believe I'm arguing this in Sean's
> favor, because Bob *worked* my Sean with Alex consistently, even. But
> after the things I saw in the last few weeks of 2i's dubious 'popularity' (especially the second Vegas tournament), I believe that Sean has a small advantage in this fight.
Okay. Answer me this if you please: Based on your experience or
observation, who's hardest to beat at the higher level: Akuma, Ibuki, or
Yang?
--
Ultima
http://members.xoom.com/Ultima1 - The Street Fighter RPG Manifesto!
http://members.xoom.com/ShinUltima - U's Ultimate Rambling Page
"If an arcade doesn't have a version of SF or SS in it, then it's not an
arcade"
Mark Zedaker
(Shaun Patrick Mcisaac) wrote:
> All that Sean has that will beat the standing forward will get him
> killed if blocked. The end.
Far s.RH (which trades, in Sean's favor) will NOT get him killed if
it's blocked -- and if it hits clean or trades, he gets a Hyper Tornado,
FOR FREE. Damage.
I can't believe I'm arguing this game again. I can't believe I'm
arguing this FIGHT again. I can't believe I'm arguing this in Sean's
favor, because Bob *worked* my Sean with Alex consistently, even. But
after the things I saw in the last few weeks of 2i's dubious 'popularity'
(especially the second Vegas tournament), I believe that Sean has a small
advantage in this fight.
--
Mark Zedaker
ch...@home.com
Mark Zedaker
wrote:
> > Whoever the better player is will win this fight.
>
> Let's not start this again...
>
Agreed. Let's not.
--
Mark Zedaker
ch...@home.com
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Mark Zedaker <ch...@home.com> wrote:
>In article <F2t83...@midway.uchicago.edu>, spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu
>(Shaun Patrick Mcisaac) wrote:
> Far s.RH (which trades, in Sean's favor) will NOT get him killed if
>it's blocked -- and if it hits clean or trades, he gets a Hyper Tornado,
>FOR FREE. Damage.
If Sean is at that kind of range though, the s.RH would wiff,
right? D'oh. And at certain (closer) ranges, I think you'll find that
you could punish it with an ES rush. Block stun is just crap in this
game.
Honestly, I couldn't really care whether or not Sean can beat the
MK. Mostly because I don't care about this GAME.. and I'll even
stipulate that this isn't a blowout. Whatever. The game is STILL
unbalanced.
--
Mark Zedaker
(Shaun Patrick Mcisaac) wrote:
> Honestly, I couldn't really care whether or not Sean can beat the
> MK. Mostly because I don't care about this GAME.. and I'll even
> stipulate that this isn't a blowout. Whatever. The game is STILL
> unbalanced.
ME TOO!
BYE!
--
Mark Zedaker
ch...@home.com
Mark Zedaker
<mi...@milos-chalkboard.net> wrote:
> > Mark Zedaker wrote:
> >> Kuro wrote:
> >>
> >> Let's not start this again...
> >
> > Agreed. Let's not.
>
> #$!*. Just when it was getting good. I was looking forward to the
> umpteenth Painter vs. Zedaker "Alex vs. Sean" argument. You guys have
> disappointed me.
Sorry, Milo. I can barely even remember Adon's SFA3 color schemes,
much less 'deep' strategy for a game that's been dead for half a year now
(deader than it was when it was 'not dead', even). If it'll help ease
your pain, all of the OLD arguments are still on DejaNews. Enjoy.
(Man, I've been posting a lot on this NG lately. WTF?)
--
Mark Zedaker
ch...@home.com
I
>
>In article <732fim$nak$1...@excalibur.flash.net>, I <I...@I.COM> wrote:
>>>>In article <F2Juv...@midway.uchicago.edu>, spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu says...
>>>>>In article <72qd9h$dj2$1...@excalibur.flash.net>, I <I...@I.COM> wrote:
>>>>>>In article <01be10ca$3535a960$e0798bd0@chungo>, chu...@netvigator.com says...
>>
>>First, Akuma is the obvious overpowered (hidden & code-accessible) boss
>character,
>>so his unbalanced matches are to be expected. Do this mean that we can
>dismiss
>>Akuma in our "balance matrix"? To properly determine if a game is in
>balance
>>overall with the average selectable characters, we would have to or he
>would
>>skew the results.
>
>Fine.
;-)
>>Now to go over your other noted matches...
>>>>> Alex vs Sean
>>I disagree. This is a good matchup.
>
>Sean cannot effectively deal with Alex's standing forward, and when he
>does get in, HBs and PBs get him right out at a large cost of life. Sean
>cannot effectively poke at Alex, who can poke at him, neither one can jump
>at the other for the most part, and Alex does more damage per hit.
Too much emphasis on the standing forward. Both characters compliment each other
by having an answer to each other's moves. This matchup is fair and not a "mismatch"
in Alex's favor as you claim. I preferably choose Sean over Alex.
>>>>> Ibuki vs Alex
>>I disagree. Alex should be more respected here.
>
> "Ibuki is a hitman hired to kill Alex." - Zvi-David Barkochba
And? Has nothing to do with the semantics of the game.
> Alex can't deal with Ibuki's jabs and shorts, both of which combo
>into either infinites or 45% damage combos.
What about the standing forward? ;-)
>>>>> Oro vs Alex (and it was worse in 1st impact)
>>I disagree. Again, Alex does fairly well against many characters.
>
>Alex cannot beat Oro's air attacks. With ANYTHING, even supers. Oro can
>jump straight up and down all day for free once he gets any type of lead
>and NONE of alex's attacks will hit him out.
It's just the turtle style you are assuming Alex has trouble with.
["ZONK" character-by-character analysis]
The problem with trying to determine if the game is balanced or not, is
actually trying to determine if the characters themselves are balanced. Some
character's have another character's number(Dhalsim vs. Zangief) while some
characters(Ryu) do well against everyone.
Why is this? It is due to the distribution of the attributes of each character:
speed, strength, range, special arts, damage ratio, etc. Each character is
given a move to compensate a weakness and a weakness to compensate an advantage.
(ie. Dhalsims advantageous range is weakened with minimal damage potential)
So at one extreme, there tends to be characters who do not have enough
characterisitics to compete well against everyone(Elena) and on the other
extreme there are some characters that do excellent(Akuma/Gill).
This is where the balance of the game is determined, with the attributes.
>So basically you get a good fight *SOME* of the time when you pick two
>people who are not in the top four nor the bottom two. The six extreme
>charcters will destroy / get destroyed as appropriate. So then you're
>looking at:
>Ryu Ken Alex Dudley Necro Sean Hugo Oro
>
>Which looks like this:
> ADHKNORS
>A-*11**1*
>D*-111111
>H11-**111
>K11*-1111
>N*1*1-*11
>O*111*-11
>R111111-1
>S*111111-
We are going off on a tanget with the statistics here since each matchup has a
fine line when it becomes "unbalanced" or not. Where this line is drawn will
tend to be biased toward personal experiences. Since I "master all characters",
my opinions too are biased since my opponents differentiate from yours. It's the
all too familiar, "Well, you've never seen this character played this way before"
dull argument.
Capcom sends out their rundown of character matchups in a matrix to
determine character rankings and winning percentages. Unfortunately, their tests
are AI oreientated and does not give an accurate conclusion. Humans will play
the characters differently and the results in comparison will vary.
So the only way to find the answer is to guage each character's attributes and
determime if they are balanced in comparison with the other characters. Obviously,
we cannot attain this information(less they put in some sort of training mode,
ie. Tekken on PSX), therefore we are left with our personal experiences/opinions,
fallicious tournaments, and faith in Capcom for rigorous testing. Bet on option 3.
>So you've got Ryu, Sean, Ken, and Dudley with minimal number of
>mismatches, Hugo & Oro with a pair, and Necro and Alex with three and
>four respectively.
>
>So when you exclude nearly half the characters in the game, you finally
>get something with a pretty decent amount of balance in it, 1:4
>unbalanced:total.
>
>Wonderful.
>
>I'll stick with A3, thank you, where at least the mismatches involve
>something more than repeatedly hitting standing forward, jab, or low
>strong.
I sense you are somewhat bitter with this game and the opponents you faced
when your were playing it. Whatever qualms you have with this game, don't
blame it, but blame yourself.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Milo D. Cooper <mi...@milos-chalkboard.net> wrote:
> #$!*. Just when it was getting good. I was looking forward to the
>umpteenth Painter vs. Zedaker "Alex vs. Sean" argument. You guys have
>disappointed me.
!@#$ that, you haven't been bitching about Elena NEARLY enough,
although Sol has done a pretty good job for you. "Ryu's standing forward
beats every move Elena has." Oh my !@#$, does this game suck.
--
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
>In article <F2pHK...@midway.uchicago.edu>, spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu says...
>>In article <732fim$nak$1...@excalibur.flash.net>, I <I...@I.COM> wrote:
>>>>>In article <F2Juv...@midway.uchicago.edu>, spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu says...
>>>>>>In article <72qd9h$dj2$1...@excalibur.flash.net>, I <I...@I.COM> wrote:
>>>>>>>In article <01be10ca$3535a960$e0798bd0@chungo>, chu...@netvigator.com says...
>>>I disagree. Alex should be more respected here.
>> "Ibuki is a hitman hired to kill Alex." - Zvi-David Barkochba
>And? Has nothing to do with the semantics of the game.
>
>> Alex can't deal with Ibuki's jabs and shorts, both of which combo
>>into either infinites or 45% damage combos.
>What about the standing forward? ;-)
Ibuki can block it and Hashin Sho. This is game over in first
impact as you proceed to infinite Alex (I have no problems displaying why
the game is garbage, so why not. If they call it cheap you just say
that's why the game sucks and suggest playing something that sucks less or
gasp doesn't suck at all. Infinites are just plain stupid, but I'll use
them if I want to display a point or am pressed for win in a tourney or
other serious play).
In second impact you get a free super if you're quick and block
the forward (might have to be a bit closer than max range). Then you just
juggle for a couple of standing rhs and I think an ES dragon kick (hien)
into air chain (not sure if this is allowed after a few hits or will get
alex the whole way; works on Hugo, can someone (Ultima?) confirm?) That's
if she wants to block. If she wants to do a slide (c.fw, from max range)
she'll go under it and hit alex, who can't respond (you can block reversal
Tenshin Senkyutais from the right range, and Alex dreams he was that
quick). If Ibuki so desires she can stick out her spin kicks or her own
stand forward (depends on range, but I was having no real problems
stuffing Sol's Alex when he did too many stand forwards). The head stomp
goes over it, but that move is of questionable use without the knife super
to back it up. The hien beats it pretty much clean. The neckbreakers go
under it. Plenty of ways to deal with it.
So now she gets inside that range. Alex has the c.strong,
f+strong, and hyper bomb as his big stuffs in here, maybe c.fw as well.
Hyper bomb is great, but that's not something you'll always have, with the
huge bar. These are pretty solid moves, but their isn't much you can do
with them. Ibuki has standing jabs/shorts, c.shorts, c.strongs, c.RH, the
spinkicks, D,D+P, f+fw, and the headstomp (short version). Ibuki can
start a 45% combo against Alex off a standing jab. She can start an
infinite off of the standing short, and I think off of the c.strong and
perhaps the D,D+P or f+fw overhead as well, if they're spaced properly.
Well Ibuki's jabs and shorts just come out too fast for Alex to trade or
beat with any kind of consistancy.
So once in close Alex has to fear 33%-100% combos every time he
tries to push her away.
And to make it worse, this isn't a complete listing of all the
other things Ibuki can outprioritize Alex with, either.
>>>>>> Oro vs Alex (and it was worse in 1st impact)
>It's just the turtle style you are assuming Alex has trouble with.
Not really. Oro just flat out wins on priority is all. We both do a
move, and Alex gets hit clean way more than 2/3 of the time, and it's
worse in the air. In first impact, Oro had a few 100% combos, so that
could be deadly on a close, clean hit. D'oh.
>["ZONK" character-by-character analysis]
>
>The problem with trying to determine if the game is balanced or not, is
>actually trying to determine if the characters themselves are balanced. Some
>character's have another character's number(Dhalsim vs. Zangief) while some
>characters(Ryu) do well against everyone.
>Why is this? It is due to the distribution of the attributes of each character:
>speed, strength, range, special arts, damage ratio, etc. Each character is
>given a move to compensate a weakness and a weakness to compensate an advantage.
>(ie. Dhalsims advantageous range is weakened with minimal damage potential)
You forgot priority. Zan can never really deal with Sim in SF2
because he can never really hit those damned limbs when he needs to.
>So at one extreme, there tends to be characters who do not have enough
>characterisitics to compete well against everyone(Elena) and on the other
>extreme there are some characters that do excellent(Akuma/Gill).
>This is where the balance of the game is determined, with the attributes.
Fine, then look at it like this:
Akuma, Yang, Yun, Ibuki, Elena, and Urien are either too much or too
little. You could make an argument for Hugo (too little - his SPD sucks
hard, his super can be jumped out of by the ppl who he needs it to
connect with most, not enough good poke moves, slow as hell, huge target,
has combos that only work on him (including redizzies)) as well. Only 14
characters in the game and 6 or 7 are not balanced.
>We are going off on a tanget with the statistics here since each matchup has a
>fine line when it becomes "unbalanced" or not. Where this line is drawn will
>tend to be biased toward personal experiences. Since I "master all characters",
>my opinions too are biased since my opponents differentiate from yours. It's the
>all too familiar, "Well, you've never seen this character played this way before"
>dull argument.
Sometimes it doesn't matter how you play a character. Ryu vs Elena
is bad because Ryu has a die button; standing forward beats everything and
so no matter what Elena is doing, she'll always get out prioritized and
always get hit, unless she jumps, but then a DP hits everything there. So
anyone who can DP most/all of the time and can hit standing forward should
win this match nearly ALL the time, because there isn't a way for anything
Elena has to ever win.
>Capcom sends out their rundown of character matchups in a matrix to
>determine character rankings and winning percentages. Unfortunately,
their tests
>are AI oreientated and does not give an accurate conclusion. Humans will play
>the characters differently and the results in comparison will vary.
Heh, that would explain why they never fix so many things...
>>I'll stick with A3, thank you, where at least the mismatches involve
>>something more than repeatedly hitting standing forward, jab, or low
>>strong.
>I sense you are somewhat bitter with this game and the opponents you faced
>when your were playing it. Whatever qualms you have with this game, don't
>blame it, but blame yourself.
Nah, we had lots of fun with those matches, but the fun ran out
when we realized that there were too many characters which had simple and
unstoppable patterns, like standing forward Ryu v Elena. I don't mind a
mismatch, as long as it is a mismatch in which my opponent has to do some
work to win as well. You can't eat a twinkie and beat my A3 Charlie with
Dhalsim by repeatedly hitting forward kick. I can at least threaten to
win, which is fine. Another example would be Hugo, as he can't do this in
2i, because the ppl who mop the floor with him do it off of very simple
tactics and he has no way of coming back with his super (or anything
else).
If there really and truly is nothing that can be done with a
character (to win), it's a waste of bits. I will not blame myself because
there is nothing that can be done. I don't blame myself because
tic-tac-toe becomes unwinnable beyond a certain level, I blame the game,
because it is too simple. Your opponent never needs to do any real work
to stop you, nor do you do work to defend, and so the game is an endless
series of stalemates. Well, 2i has its own very similar stalemates as
well, and so while it was entertaining when it was new, as tic tac toe
may be to a small child, 2i has no lasting value.
But 2i's stalemates go beyond its mismatched characters. Option
selecting, weaving, and poke-n-parry are all very much a part of what
makes the game mindless and boring. These three things are an absolute
must for top notch 2i game play, because parrys have so much reward for so
little risk. Parrys kill any style other than random offensive attacks
and random defensive attacks, and so style is dictated as well. "Chris,
the difference between your Necro and Jason's is that Jason randomly
attacks while holding the stick back, and you randomly attack while
holding the stick forward. I mean, it's different, but its not
a revolutionary, new way to play." Amrose was forced to agree, even
though his "style" was more effective than Jason's (for Necro, at least).
And so with style dictated, and unbalances unfolding as such, 2i
becomes rock paper scissors, but sometimes you can only pick rock. Your
two man tourney would still determine the better player overall, but with
so much of it largely predetermined, why play?
This is why even with its seemingly strong characters, like
Dhalsim, Gen, and Rolento, A3 remains top. There is a lot play left to be
determined. There is no instant death feature like 2i's parrys or A2's
customs. So style is not completely dictated to the use/avoidance of
those features. Well now I have style, what about characters? Sure, some
have less than others, but 1/2 the cast can't beat each other with one or
two buttons. (Neglect hidden modes and isms here as I did 2i Akuma, for
the most part, because obviously the L glitches skew this.)
--
Ultima
>
> In article <73amne$tk$1...@excalibur.flash.net>, I <I...@I.COM> wrote:
> >In article <F2pHK...@midway.uchicago.edu>, spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu says...
> >>In article <732fim$nak$1...@excalibur.flash.net>, I <I...@I.COM> wrote:
> >>>>>In article <F2Juv...@midway.uchicago.edu>, spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu says...
> >>>>>>In article <72qd9h$dj2$1...@excalibur.flash.net>, I <I...@I.COM> wrote:
> >>>>>>>In article <01be10ca$3535a960$e0798bd0@chungo>, chu...@netvigator.com says...
> >>>>>> Ibuki vs Alex
> >>>I disagree. Alex should be more respected here.
> >> "Ibuki is a hitman hired to kill Alex." - Zvi-David Barkochba
> >And? Has nothing to do with the semantics of the game.
> >
> >> Alex can't deal with Ibuki's jabs and shorts, both of which combo
> >>into either infinites or 45% damage combos.
> >What about the standing forward? ;-)
[Ibuki vs Alex in 1st IMpact - Ibuki wins. Next]
> In second impact you get a free super if you're quick and block the forward (might have to be a bit closer than max range).
Assuming he ever gets a chance to whip out that forward. One blocked jab
from Ibuki is death for Alex.
> Then you just juggle for a couple of standing rhs and I think an ES dragon kick (hien) into air chain (not sure if this is allowed after a few hits or will get alex the whole way; works on Hugo, can someone (Ultima?) confirm?)
EX Hien, air chain, blah blah blah works on Alex, yes. Works an a lot of
people, doesn't it?
> That's if she wants to block. If she wants to do a slide (c.fw, from max range) she'll go under it and hit alex, who can't respond (you can block reversal Tenshin Senkyutais from the right range, and Alex dreams he was that quick).
Ibuki can not only slide, but can combo from her slide as well.. o_O
Uh, Teshin Senkytai? I though we were talking about Ibuki here. Didd you
mean Hashin Sho?
> If Ibuki so desires she can stick out her spin kicks or her own
> stand forward (depends on range, but I was having no real problems
> stuffing Sol's Alex when he did too many stand forwards). The head stomp goes over it, but that move is of questionable use without the knife super to back it up. The hien beats it pretty much clean. The neckbreakers go under it. Plenty of ways to deal with it.
And like I said, if Ibuki gets in an forces Alex to block even one jab,
it's pretty much guaranteed 45% gone. keep jabbing (high or low, throw
in a low short now and then) to build super, and if one hits combo into
the usual. Alex can't keep up with Ibuki's s.jab/c.jab guess game unless
Ibuki messes up.
> So now she gets inside that range. Alex has the c.strong,
> f+strong, and hyper bomb as his big stuffs in here, maybe c.fw as well. Hyper bomb is great, but that's not something you'll always have, with the huge bar. These are pretty solid moves, but their isn't much you can do with them. Ibuki has standing jabs/shorts, c.shorts, c.strongs, c.RH, the spinkicks, D,D+P, f+fw, and the headstomp (short version). Ibuki can start a 45% combo against Alex off a standing jab.
Or a low jab. Or a low short. Or a D,D+P overhead...
> She can start an infinite off of the standing short, and I think off of the c.strong and perhaps the D,D+P or f+fw overhead as well, if they're spaced properly. Well Ibuki's jabs and shorts just come out too fast for Alex to trade or beat with any kind of consistancy.
> So once in close Alex has to fear 33%-100% combos every time he tries to push her away.
Yup :(
> And to make it worse, this isn't a complete listing of all the
> other things Ibuki can outprioritize Alex with, either.
Yup >:(
> >>>>>> Oro vs Alex (and it was worse in 1st impact)
> >It's just the turtle style you are assuming Alex has trouble with.
> Not really. Oro just flat out wins on priority is all. We both do a
> move, and Alex gets hit clean way more than 2/3 of the time, and it's
> worse in the air. In first impact, Oro had a few 100% combos, so that
> could be deadly on a close, clean hit. D'oh.
Hmmm.. NOt too experienced with this match-up (since, aside from me, I
think I've see another person play Oro in 2I ONCE). Oro beats Alex? I'd
probably have to see that to believe it. (but then again, aside from
stomping the shit out of it, I do remember CPU Oor being a pain to play
against with Alex, but that's not a good indicator of the match-up)
[OMNISLASH]
o_ev...@hotmail.com
mepe...@eos.ncsu.edu (Mary Ellen Peterson) wrote:
>
> I recenly bought sf alpha 2 and was wondering if any one could please post all
the
> moves for all the characters. I am having a problem learning how to play.
Follow the link in my sig. (The one that says, "Go here!!!".)
--
Onaje Everett
o_ev...@hotmail.com
Go here!!! --> http://www.gamefaqs.com/
http://millenia-bcs.com/
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o_ev...@hotmail.com
I...@I.COM (I) wrote:
(gigantic snip)
While you have what it takes to be a logician, the fact still remains that
you don't know your character matchups. This was evident from when you first
tried to say that Yun and Yang play the same.
That's all I'm going to say on the matter. No, not because I can't defend
myself, because I definitely can, but because I know it would prove futile
after how well Shawn's laid everything out and you're not seeing it.
Dare I say that you need to find better competition (and maybe *gasp!* go to a
tournament) in order to learn exactly what each character it capable of?
Of course, I do. However, the fact remains: This game (SF3:2I) is tired.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
>Shaun Patrick Mcisaac wrote:
>> In article <73amne$tk$1...@excalibur.flash.net>, I <I...@I.COM> wrote:
>> >In article <F2pHK...@midway.uchicago.edu>, spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu says...
>> >>In article <732fim$nak$1...@excalibur.flash.net>, I <I...@I.COM> wrote:
>> That's if she wants to block. If she wants to do a slide (c.fw, from
max range) she'll go under it and hit alex, who can't respond (you can
block reversal Tenshin Senkyutais from the right range, and Alex dreams
he was that quick).
>Uh, Teshin Senkytai? I though we were talking about Ibuki here. Didd you
>mean Hashin Sho?
No, Im talking about Ibuki's slide. At a certain range, if they
blocik and do an immediate Tenshin Senkyutai, you can block it. Alex
doesn't have anything that quick, so he can't hit her, either.
>> f+strong, and hyper bomb as his big stuffs in here, maybe c.fw as well. Hyper bomb is great, but that's not something you'll always have, with the huge bar. These are pretty solid moves, but their isn't much you can do with them. Ibuki has standing j
abs/shorts, c.shorts, c.strongs, c.RH, the spinkicks, D,D+P, f+fw, and the headstomp (short version). Ibuki can start a 45% combo against Alex off a standing jab.
>
>Or a low jab. Or a low short. Or a D,D+P overhead...
I wrote those already. Pay attention, it matters..
>> >>>>>> Oro vs Alex (and it was worse in 1st impact)
>> Not really. Oro just flat out wins on priority is all. We both do a
>> move, and Alex gets hit clean way more than 2/3 of the time, and it's
>> worse in the air. In first impact, Oro had a few 100% combos, so that
>> could be deadly on a close, clean hit. D'oh.
>
>Hmmm.. NOt too experienced with this match-up (since, aside from me, I
>think I've see another person play Oro in 2I ONCE). Oro beats Alex? I'd
>probably have to see that to believe it. (but then again, aside from
>stomping the shit out of it, I do remember CPU Oor being a pain to play
>against with Alex, but that's not a good indicator of the match-up)
Oro has about 4 answers for each of Alexs threats. If Alex does anything,
press strong, crouching or otherwise. D'OH! That works against too much
of his stuff. But you have to mix it up with pressing fierce and fw.,
with the rare few rh.s. Voila, 99% of everything he has is stuffed by
random strongs. Oro beats Alex worse than Ibuki does. It's THAT bad.
--
I
>
>In article <73amne$tk$1...@excalibur.flash.net>,
> I...@I.COM (I) wrote:
>
>(gigantic snip)
>
>While you have what it takes to be a logician, the fact still remains that
>you don't know your character matchups. This was evident from when you first
>tried to say that Yun and Yang play the same.
I never said this Onaje. I mentioned that they share the same identifier in
regard to the balance matrix I was referencing. Please get your facts straight
before you start assuming.
>That's all I'm going to say on the matter. No, not because I can't defend
>myself, because I definitely can, but because I know it would prove futile
>after how well Shawn's laid everything out and you're not seeing it.
The discussion is about SF3's balance. Not a competition between him and I,
(nor you). The only winner is the derivation of the truth through logic.
We must cooperate, not compete, in order to accomplish this.
>Dare I say that you need to find better competition (and maybe *gasp!* go to a
>tournament) in order to learn exactly what each character it capable of?
Dare I say you are being ignorant? I refuse to participate in *bracket*
tournaments, and everyone (including you) knows why.
I engage in the two-dimensional array tourney structure (ie. Laws of Fighting
Tournament) in which you must "master all characters" in order to prevail.
"*Gasp!* does that mean I have to be proficient using all the characters?"
Yes Onaje, it does.
>Of course, I do. However, the fact remains: This game (SF3:2I) is tired.
How is this a fact? There are many people who love the game.
Since you instigated this response out of the blue, if I didn't know better, I'd
say you have a bone to pick with me. What's on your mind?