MvC2 The *real* problems
Kazumi Jin
nobody mentioned the fact that you cannot change your chars or change your
helper mode between matches. I know capcom doesnt have a history with allowing
you to select diff chars between matches, but they should of at least allowed
you to switch between your helpers ala 2I and 3S super art select. I know this
means nothing as far as the tourney front, but from normal play after play you
can get screwed with say 3 beam chars with 3 beam assists, win, then take on
the next guy who has 3 flying chars pinning your ass to the ground. Anyone?
Juan Banardo Gainzala
>the next guy who has 3 flying chars pinning your ass to the ground. Anyone?
There is no point is complaining about it because Capcom is the worst when it
comes to between match changes.
Anyway.... isn't it a bit silly to have all beam assists?
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Yes, it would. If you devoted your entire life to improving at basketball,
going to the best games for your skill level and constantly improving for many
years, you could definitely make it into the NBA - Hoop dreamer
Stilt Man
Kazumi Jin <kazu...@aol.com> wrote:
>With all the bitching and moaning as of late im surprised that absolutely
>nobody mentioned the fact that you cannot change your chars or change your
>helper mode between matches. I know capcom doesnt have a history with allowing
>you to select diff chars between matches, but they should of at least allowed
>you to switch between your helpers ala 2I and 3S super art select. I know this
>means nothing as far as the tourney front, but from normal play after play you
>the next guy who has 3 flying chars pinning your ass to the ground. Anyone?
Well, my take on this goes something like this...
I don't care.
I've never seen the merit of allowing someone to switch characters between
matches. The only benefit of that is to permit someone who happens to know
how the local competition plays from person to person to exploit every flaw
in a given opponent's gameplay game in and game out, rather than rounding
out their team better to start with and adjusting. If you pick a given char
and he's weak under certain circumstances, you'd better be ready to use your
other chars to protect that one from those circumstances. You've got three
characters, and a lot of thinking you can do to round them out to deal with
most enemies. If you don't round them out, you won't be on the machine long,
and if someone who beats you harps too much on the weaknesses of your playing
at the expense of rounding out their own team, (a) you need to work on
those weaknesses, and (b) they won't be on the machine long either.
e.g. Three beam assists? Yeah, I'd certainly say that you're asking people
to, if not actually fly, stay off the ground for the most part and attack
you out of the air.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
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James M
are roughly 3 character types, beam, large and pixie, and you
have 1 of each, no team can be better than yours. The same goes
for assists. A balanced team has at least even odds against all
other possible teams.
There are other teams (say 3 beam chars) that can do better
against certain other teams (say 2 large chars) than a mixed
team will do, but a mixed team can 100% guarantee at least a 50%
chance of winning regardless of the opposing team. Considering
that this game is reflexive in that both sides are equivalent,
50% is the best minimum value you could ever achieve, and a
mixed team achieves this.
Bottom line: if you play a balanced team, there is NO counter
team. ZERO, NONE. You ALWAYS have at least a 50% chance of
winning, totally independent of who the opponent picks.
If nobody beleives this, show me a team that will beat a team of
1 large, 1 pixie, 1 beam. (OF course, we can't quite so simply
divide everyone so strictly, but the point here is that mixes
are better)
James M
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Alexander J Koo
important, but now there are two new variables that must be considered:
DHCability and Helper. DHCs become apparent considering there are 100%
DHCs out there... basically why NOT have powerful DHC linkage when you CAN?
And of course, if you don't see the importance in helpers, then you're
not playing the game to it's potential. Like why would I ever want Guile?
His assists generally have nothing special about them(in comparison to
Rogue's assist, colossus assist, Juggernaut assist, etc.). But his DHC
ability is one of the best in the game. His sonic hurricane catches
falling opponents (eg. after Maximum spider) and links into supers like
Tron Bonne's Lunch Time rush.
I am finding that a powerful team is based on DHCability, Helper
ability, and lack of "individual usefulness." Choose characters that don't
take out certain characters with ease, yet are impossible to use on others.
For instance, I don't use Cable because although he absolutely destroys
large characters, pixies kill him bad. I also don't use Juggernaut,
simply because of Cable and Doom. Colossus falls into the same problem
Juggernaut does. I haven't seen Sentinel in action, but I have a hard
time imagining him getting around Cable. I also
don't consider Akuma, because his damage intake is way below average.
And most pixies have major problems with characters like
Hulk/Juggernaut/Colossus/MZ. Spiderman just happens to be an
unbalanced-ly powerful pixie, but most characters like psylocke just
won't cut it against large characters.
Who would I recommend? Spiderman is a great start. His assist is
incredible(spider web ball), his DHC ability is great (Maximum spider
works into anything, although after-link is not easy to find), and he has
few weaknesses aside from his damage intake(which isn't horrible, just
kinda poor). His normal AC hurts like a bitch.
Storm is also a good choice with few extreme weaknesses/strengths.
Her hail storm goes through to the helper, her lightning storm is good
for randomness, and her AC does crazy damage. Both of her supers have
great DHCability, her s. short is fast enough to beat even some pixies in
the dash-in-and-launch game, and she can play keep away with the best of
them if she wants to (see drill claw move).
Rogue is also a good all-around character. She can beat pixies simply
due to her speedup pseudo-infinite, and she kills large characters pretty
bad due to her kiss (hard to avoid with large characters). Her kiss helper
is, IMO, one of the best in the game. Only her DHCability sucks. So I
just make sure I pick her 3rd so that I can at least get off 2 supers in
a DHC.
What do these 3 have in common? I can't think of many characters that
*absolutely* shut any of these down, but yet there aren't any
characters they absolutely shut down, either. If I'm down to just 1 of
these characters, I can make a comeback with few issues. I don't ever want to
be stuck with Juggernaut against a team of Cable and Capt. Commando.
Maybe because I'm tournament oriented in my style, but this method of
team picking would work excellent in a tourney where counter-teams can
decide the outcome of a tournament.
I think your idea of a balanced team is correct, but I would reduce it
one step further and say that a team of 3 individually balanced
characters would do even better than a team that's balanced as a whole.
This would eliminate the following problem:
If you have a team of say Cable, Juggernaut, and Cammy( a very good
team in fact), using that order is a nice DHC setup. But if your
opponent decides to use a team of Cammy, Cable, and Juggernaut, you will
get screwed 1 by 1(I like how when you beat one guy, you can switch
characters with no chance of retaliation , hehe). Even without that
great ordering, one wrong choice in character order will destroy your
game. I guess in the same respect, you could have a breeze of a game,
but by mathematical standards, there's no reason to take that chance.
Eventually you'll start looking at whether your opponent is holding A1 or
A2 before the match(trust me, this happens).
I don't see any team that would be unbeatable at this point, but a team
of 3 individually balanced characters seems to be the best way to go for
now. Try it an you'll see what I mean.
James M (jsm16N...@cornell.edu.invalid) wrote:
: Being the math genius that I am, let me point out that if there
: James M
--
AK
Viscant
>Being the math genius that I am, let me point out that if there
>are roughly 3 character types, beam, large and pixie, and you
>have 1 of each, no team can be better than yours. The same goes
>for assists. A balanced team has at least even odds against all
>other possible teams.
>
>There are other teams (say 3 beam chars) that can do better
>against certain other teams (say 2 large chars) than a mixed
>team will do, but a mixed team can 100% guarantee at least a 50%
>chance of winning regardless of the opposing team. Considering
>that this game is reflexive in that both sides are equivalent,
>50% is the best minimum value you could ever achieve, and a
>mixed team achieves this.
>
>Bottom line: if you play a balanced team, there is NO counter
>team. ZERO, NONE. You ALWAYS have at least a 50% chance of
>winning, totally independent of who the opponent picks.
>
>If nobody beleives this, show me a team that will beat a team of
>1 large, 1 pixie, 1 beam. (OF course, we can't quite so simply
>divide everyone so strictly, but the point here is that mixes
>are better)
>
The logic here works, but remember that there aren't just beam, pixie, giant
characters. Many characters seem to be hybrids, especially in this game.
Sentinel is a giant with a large assortment of beams, Doom is a beam character
with giant-style mobility. Venom is a giant with some pixie like qualities
(don't believe me? Play around with ground supporting assist and his air dash.
Works just like Spiderman's should). Iceman is almost more pixie than beam
character, and if he had decent jabs and shorts, he would be a pixie purely.
Magneto's a tall guy with some beam/projectile moves and he has the fastest
dash in the game. The list goes on and on.
Also there are a lot of cross-tier matches that happen. Like, if we accept the
common RPS system that giant beats pixie, pixie beats beam, beam beats giant,
then we could say that you can pick Zangief to beat Jill. Which doesn't work
very well. Some beam characters when paired in tandem can effectively shut
down two character types. Cable/Commando together can work to shut down all
beam and all giants. And some characters on their own can win a lot of matches
they shouldn't. Cyclops on his own can handle most of his natural counters,
the pixies, just relying on his full-screen MOB, good roundhouses and standing
short.
So for your example, a team that can beat a properly mixed team. Let's take a
mixed team as Juggernaut (large)/Doom (beam)/Jill (pixie). Pretty good team.
I didn't stick Zangief in the example, did I? =) An all beam team can put up
a pretty good fight here, like Cable/Commando/Iceman. As long as Commando
lives and Cable is the point character, Doom has a long day ahead of him and
Juggernaut's game is over. Jill, the pixie (a good one) and the supposed
counter, WILL have a hard time with Cable/Commando. And if she can't get the
job done, the other two are screwed something awful.
Sometimes you just need to stack the deck a little bit. Like in the example
above, wouldn't you feel much more comfortable replacing Juggernaut with
Strider? The thing that Juggernaut is there to supposedly counter, pixies, is
replaced by one of the best pixies. So the anti-pixie job is getting done
anyways. Can't beat em, join em, eh? I think this might be something we'll
find happens later in tournament play. But then again, this is using a lot of
words to say nothing. If a character turns out to be pretty good and he's the
best in his class, it might be a good idea to pick him. Duh. =)
And for the stacking of assists, now that assist type changes up what type of
super they'll do in a triple super, this can be cause for thought a bit. Like,
most people like to use Doom's rocks as an assist. But they don't like what
they get in the triple team (that being the upward fireball thing...I think).
I mean, yeah, it's useful, but it might not be what you want. Whereas if you
choose all 3 beam assists, you can be sure of getting a team that works
together in the triple team. Depends what's more valuable to you, I guess.
The jury's still out (and should be for at least a few more months) on the
heavier gameplay issues like this. It's nice to talk about them like this
though.
--Viscant, The Icy Rose
"Rising from the depths of nothingness again..."
James M
vis...@aol.com (Viscant) wrote:
[clip me talking]
Of course, my math "proof" is a horrible simplification, I just
wanted to point out the foolishness in complaining that someone
beats you 'cause you chose 3 beam helpers...in general though
clearly more characters means it is harder to make counter
teams. In a 1 vs 1, counter "teams" are easy to find and
effective. But in 3 vs 3, even if 1 member is totally shut down,
2 vs 3 is an OK deal, and when you consider that the shut down
person can still serve as a helper, not that bad on its own.
A common theme here is just the law of averages. More team
members = any 1 team member (or any 1 combo, or matchup) is
worth less relative to the whole.
Now, as for the triple team super vs assist thing...are triple
team supers actually useful? In my mind the best thing about
them is speed of activation, but how much damage do they do?
Also they can be useful in that you don't always want to switch
out.
This game has a ton that goes into picking characters. You want
3 guys who are good on their own, have good assists, a good
triple team super, match-up well against a variety of other
teams, are good at DHCs...it a huge combinatorial problem of
epic proportions. (Epic for a fighting game at least)
And it is quite possible to form unique teams that happen to
work very well together. For example, in my attemtps to find a
use for Blackheart, I found Collosus to be an excellent assist,
because after Collosus hits them into the air you have plenty f
time to land an armageddon, and Collusus + armageddon = mucho
damage. But now, I have to consider who i want as a third
teammate...someone who can DHC after the armageddon? What if
Blackheart is not in, what can I do then?
(To land the armageddon you have to be on the opposite side of
Collosus, so air dash or if really sneaky ground dash under
them...BH dash actually has some use in this game)
I could probably win some matches utilizing my colossus +
armageddon strategy, but it is simply one trick for 1 point man
with 1 helper. The much better team would have similar tricks
for all helpers, point men, orders, etc.
The best teams I can devise rely on one just a small set of
possible point men, orders, etc. I have a good thing going with
a block damage team of SS, Doom and Iceman, but if Iceman has to
fight its game over, and Iceman DHC is also pretty worthless in
this team. And the team is weak on air defense, especially with
SS as the point man, which is my preferred order.
There are just an awesome number of combinations. My prediction
for the future (if I may be so bold) is that there will be a few
teams that are common, or taken from common elements (Cable,
Commando for example) but as more and more chars are unlocked in
arcades (right now we mostly discuss chars who are starters)
there will be more and more teams that are based around having
team members who just happen to complement each other with good
DHCs, assists, balance and nasty tricks, rather than
individually good members or common good pairings.
Finally, on a different note, on high damage a friend of mine
ran into the following strategy of somene putting a lot of
effort into attacking the helpers. The idea is that the helpers
aren't healing all that fast on high damage, and if the player
has to switch or DHC they lose the energy on that helper. It is
also quite possible to kill helpers if they were point men
first. I tend to not switch unless during a DHC (or I could also
into Ac->super, but I haven't done too much of that yet) because
I end up getting my low energy helpers killed by accident.
Instead I just take a point man and continue until death do us
part, knowing that I can call helpers ad infinitum without much
fear of them dying.
Evil team: SS shuriken assist, Doom molecular shield, Iceman ice
beam. Constantly use ice mode with SS, keep calling helpers. If
they block a beam or rocks, tack on a shuriken or super
shuriken. Use low short to poke but other than that SS just sits
there absorbing damage. If you get crazy and actually hit them,
perform the super-fierce-super-fierce...combo. (As seen in mike
Z movie, add a crossup RH first for more damage if the
positioning is right)
So, if they block they eat block damage fast. If they get hit by
the rocks you have time to ice super, which does good damage
even in ice mode, and while in ice mode you take very little
damage.
Try the following: Call doom, first rocks from doom hit (or
miss, just time the shuriken so that doom is covering a jump
in), shuriken, main rock slide hits, shuriken. Follow with super-
>shuriken->Doom super to finish a dying opponent. Huge damage
for blocking, no super used. (I love block damage)
james M
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Kazumi Jin
you 'cause you chose 3 beam helpers>>
Yeah I was really complaining. Yeah I know that 3 beam assists is not a real
slick move, I was using it as a *example*. Sometimes it may be warranted to
use 3 beamers, most of the time probably not. Fuck this......now I remember
why I dont post shit anymore.
Juan Banardo Gainzala
>slick move, I was using it as a *example*. Sometimes it may be warranted to
>use 3 beamers, most of the time probably not. Fuck this......now I remember
>why I dont post shit anymore.
Hey, Jin.. I apologize if my post seemed offensive. I meant nothing by it. I
know more than most that you can't post anything showing a weakness in your
game without expecting someone out to troll to give you a good flame.
Rich DeLauder
of teams and matchups)... some help if you don't want to be flamed all the
time... is that instead of complaining, ask someone who knows more to help.
Kaz: In this scenario, you tried to make a point and use 3 beam characters
as an example. As you even admitted, that was not a good example, the
question is, where is there ANY example? If you can't even describe the
point your trying to make in game terms, it probably wasn't a point. This
is the case, as here you admit that you were just complaining, and then you
wonder why you got the responses you did. There really is no reason to lash
out at the group in this case, you vented, the group made sure that it
wasn't taken seriously.
JB: Lets take your last conversation as a example. You stated that MvC2's
problems were launching, infinties, and super cancelling... the short of it
is that,
launching has been around forever (if someone switches and misses, they
could lose that character, if they hit, you *could* lose 50% or more, your
complaint should be that you can't switch characters safely =) ).
Infinites- most of them are corner only and a so far just non practical,
then you boldly state that someone should watch the movies before making
that assumption as if you had information on them that supported your case,
well at this point i tried you some credit, maybe i missed something on the
movies. I had d/l'ed all the MvC2 movies available already, i watched them
again, because i could be wrong... but then i saw like 3 midscreens, not all
of them may be garunteed... so then you were approached yet again... then
say that you could do Silver Samurai's infinite as long as you needed to...
first of all it's not even close to an infinite so it's not too relavent but
lets discuss it anyway: you are limited by time and super, so you need to
build 4-5 levels, and hit right away, i will let you take that risk anytime.
Super Cancelling - Remember what the problem with launching should have
been? Switching characters clean... now here is a solution to the real
problem... it also has an offensive component, however it is not free, as
you need to build a team that can use it safely, and you need to keep your
characters alive so they don't get smacked for a block damage kill after the
DHC (which means you have to be careful with helpers as well)
So... pardon the length of your explaination, you just had a long complaint
as kaz had a relatively short one... The point here is that, both of your
problems can be easily solved if you had asked for a solution... but it
seems recently that i see some 'venting'... if that is going to be the
case.. then you may want to reconsider posting... if you'd like to learn
something, take at least a civil attitude and i'm sure the responses from
most people will be equally as kind. People have spent many long hours on
this game and offer their time to write messages to answer your questions,
the least we can do is to not treat them like they were born yesterday.
"Juan Banardo Gainzala" <jbg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000428010222...@ng-cj1.aol.com...
Kazumi Jin
I
know more than most that you can't post anything showing a weakness in your
game without expecting someone out to troll to give you a good flame.>>
Fuckwit, if you looke at my post you would see that I was referring to James M
comment about my *complaining about losing games cause I have 3 beam helpers*.
I am beyond you....I do my best to ignore you, but you still manage to get a
response from me. If you wanna talk about *game* then BRING IT. Tell me the
day and Im ready to shut your ass once and for all.
Kazumi Jin
as an example. As you even admitted, that was not a good example, the
question is, where is there ANY example? If you can't even describe the
point your trying to make in game terms, it probably wasn't a point. This
is the case, as here you admit that you were just complaining, and then you
wonder why you got the responses you did. There really is no reason to lash
out at the group in this case, you vented, the group made sure that it
wasn't taken seriously.>>
Rich, point taken. See I play against this particularly nasty team of Megaman,
Doom (Photon assist), and Juggs (Jugg Punch assist). This is the rockball
trap of DOOM. I cant manage to get in on this person at all. My
cyke's/icemans blast cant seem to get thru all the crap thats on the
screen...so I add a few more beam chars to my arsenal. Its seems to work for
the mostpart. There, I use the 3 beam assists for that one match. The only
thing I can think of is stopping this ground arsenal is using a bigger one. If
anyone wants to help me figure another way to beat this team please do. Ive
tried other combos of but nothing seems to be as effective.
So yeah it was a moot point for my one particular match. Im just a firm
believer that certain teams will only be able to take on other certain teams,
and it will be gettin worse once ppl find the real nasty ones that cover the
entire screen with shit.
Juan Banardo Gainzala
>M
>comment about my *complaining about losing games cause I have 3 beam
>helpers*.
Apology not accepted? Fuckwit.. LOL haven't heard that since junior high.
Spider-Dan
kazu...@aol.com (Kazumi Jin) wrote:
><<In this scenario, you tried to make a point and use 3 beam
characters
>as an example. As you even admitted, that was not a good
example, the
>question is, where is there ANY example? If you can't even
describe the
>point your trying to make in game terms, it probably wasn't a
point. This
>is the case, as here you admit that you were just complaining,
and then you
>wonder why you got the responses you did. There really is no
reason to lash
>out at the group in this case, you vented, the group made sure
that it
>wasn't taken seriously.>>
>
team of Megaman,
> Doom (Photon assist), and Juggs (Jugg Punch assist). This is
the rockball
>trap of DOOM. I cant manage to get in on this person at all.
My
>cyke's/icemans blast cant seem to get thru all the crap thats on
the
>screen...so I add a few more beam chars to my arsenal. Its
seems to work for
>the mostpart. There, I use the 3 beam assists for that one
match. The only
>thing I can think of is stopping this ground arsenal is using a
bigger one. If
>anyone wants to help me figure another way to beat this team
please do. Ive
>tried other combos of but nothing seems to be as effective.
Pick Cable or Storm, both of their projectiles (VB/horiz.
Typhoon, respectively) cut through all projectiles on screen.
Storm's cannot even be cancelled by a super. Obviously
Cable/Commando may be a good choice, if you see Jug start to come
out as anti-VB you will have to cancel to HVB quick.
--
Dan Thompson
[send email to] edge [at] chipware [dot] net