Tokyo A3 exhibition and ST [Report]
j...@my-dejanews.com
On Sunday, Nov 13, at Shinjuku sportsland arcade, there was an SF
exhibition match. The top 3 japanese sfa3 players, Daigo Umehara,
ONuki, and "Earth Sodom" were to play exhibition matches. There were 4
head to head machines, with one champion on each machine. You went and
played each champion in a row, and then went to the final HtH machine
which held the best challenger so far. Signups started at 10am.
I got there around 11:15, and Kuni (Zangief god) had already signed up
along with my friend Astuki (V Vega). Apparently I was signed up under
the name "Sunnyvale Rolento". Hm, well ok. When I get to the arcade, I
meet Kuni along with some other people I met at the Tokyo game
show. Mayumi, who is a really nice Japanese girl who self published
her own fighting game/video game magazine, and Nagasaki, who helps her
out (and buys huge amounts of magic cards). They also self publish
some magazines on magic cards. Really cool.
BTW, Mayumi recognized me from the US SFA2 book when I was at the
tokyo game show. How cool is that?
Along with Mayumi and Nagasaki are two other guys which I have not met
before. I forgot to write their names down, and since I am terrible
with names, I'll refer to them as Bruce and DJ (for reasons to be
explained later).
I talk some with Bruce and DJ. DJ was top 16 in the Japan Vampire
Savior tournament, and the single best Sean player in the SF3:2i
tourney, where he made top 8. We talk about various strategies in
various fighting games for a while as we wait for our turns to come up
vs the champs.
Umehara never shows up for this, so the gauntlet to be run is now just
two: "Earth Sodom" and ONuki. Earth Sodom plays V Sodom, and ONuki
plays V Akuma. I am number 36 out of 40 to play, so I have some time
to watch the champions in action.
Earth Sodom is super aggressive. His basic playstyle is to attack the
shit out of you to charge meter, and then VC you. Sodom's VC is
particularly effective, as it fits the requirements for effective VC's
(see my later analysis). His VC is low forward into fierce rush,
repeat. This is a tight VC.. if you do anything but block, it will
start comboing. When it starts comboing, only the fierce rushes hit,
but he does the low forwards anyways to keep up the rythym. Whats nice
about this VC is that it gets you into the corner immediately, so all
the nice corner juggling applies. The other nice thing about this VC
is that he can do a PB at the end if you were blocking "for free".
Earth Sodom also makes a lot of use of standing fierce as air
defense. It looks really wierd, but it is very effective from far
away, much better than strong rush. He also juggles with multiple jump
strongs if you insist on PPP flipping out.
He jumps in to crossover with jump forward, does low short, low jab,
stand strong, jab rush. After a jab rush he may or may not VC you,
which will hit if you tried to "do something". He also jumps in
normally with forward, which seems to have wierd hit properties.
A typical match of Joe Tanaka vs Earth Sodom would go something like
this: Earth Sodom dances around a bit, Joe jumps in. Earth Sodom does
stand fierce, follows with jump strong juggle. Jumps in with forward,
does low short, low jab. Joe tries to do a move, which gets eaten by
stand strong (MC). VC. Repeated fierce rushes in the corner does about
the remaining 50% life Joe had. Game.
ONuki played akuma. Now to correct some false info on this
group. Umehara (Daigo) who went to the US is NOT the a2 champ. ONuki
is. He won A2 and SF3:2i. ONuki used to play V Sakura, and kept on
playing her until Umehara "forced him" to switch to V Akuma. As we see
later on, he need have not played Akuma. Sakura would have done
fine. ONuki's plan is similar: to set up huge (over 50%) VC's. The
advantage of using akuma really shines through here. As we watch him
play, we see him get off a VC from almost any situation. Air defense,
blow-thoughs, jump-ins, juggles, wake ups, knock-downs, and
counterthrows. The only VC setup I didn't see was the ever so popular
SFA2 CC through a FB. ONuki's VC's come in range of flavors, from mild
(a mere 50%), to spicy (100%). Unlike Earth Sodom, ONuki varies his VC
depending on the situation. When doing a blow through mid screen, he
will do a low forward into reb FB, followed by demon flip (I'm now
going to start calling that move demon flip or DF from now on. I'm tired of
reading about "Akuma's punch flippy air thing done with a tiger knee
motion"). The DF can go into DF->punch to hit high or DF->throw. If
you are blocking, he will go into throw, then immediately throw a red
FB when he lands. You will land on these red FB's, and now be in the
corner where he can proceed to part 2. If you didn't block, he just
goes into DF->punch, throws another red FB followed by another
DF->punch and you are now in the corner for part 2. If you jump in at
him, he will VC at the last second, jab DP, jab red FB, into DF->punch
and then see above.
There are two main modes for his corner VC's. One is repeated jab
DPs. The other is shoulder fierce (the ryu-like move where he rams you
with his shoulder and elbow) into jab FB. The jab FB's never hit (they
go under you when you are juggled), but they cancel the shoulder and
let akuma recover in time to shoulder you again. I didn't understand
exactly how this worked, but ONuki would use the repeated jab DPs on
low juggles, where the opponent would be closer to the ground, falling
normally. When he used the shoulder VC, the opponent would be bounced
much higher in the air.
One particulary cool fight was when ONuki was playing vs a Z gen. It
was down to the the third round, and both players had only a bit of
life left. Gen gets a DP off and juggles for 6 hits. As he lands, he
does the level 3 rising super to grab ONuki and win the match. In
response to the super's activation, ONuki activates VC, and
AIR-COUNTERTHROWS Gen out of his super!! Simply amazing.
A sweet fight which "Earth Sodom" ended up losing was against a
V-Charlie player. This player had a very good VC.. after hitting with
the VC, he would combo into a RH FK, then dash with short into another
RH FK. This enabled him to quickly juggle his opponent into the corner
with repeated FK's.
Another thing both champions did was to charge their meter by repeated
whiffing throws. This is the fastest and safest way to charge meter,
much faster than repeated air HK's.
They finally called Kuni's name to play. Kuni had a great fight agaist
"Earth Sodom" where he barely lost in round 3. His fight against ONuki
was also very good, Kuni barely lost on time in the third round
again, with the crowd roaring in approval of the fight.
My turn then came up. I figured the only way to beat Sodom would be to
attack like a nut and jab him into oblivion. Unfortunately, I he
landed a VC on me which destroyed me. I then played ONuki. I had a
decent game going, was ahead 1/2 a lifebar (me at full life) until I
jumped on him.
Mistake.
He activates VC, goes into jab DP. Follows into red FB into DF->punch
till I am in the corner. Then does repeated jab uppercuts which for
some reason do huge damage. As the VC ends, he juggles into a DP which
does more damage than normal and then jumps and airthrows me. 100% damage.
Round 2 wasn't quite as spectacular, but I lost. Kuni later points out
you can countermash during the VC to reduce damage by up to 40%.
After losing horribly to both champions, I talk to DJ and bruce a bit
more. Bruce asks me a lot of questions about what I think the ranking
for various SF games are.
He gave me the following list of Japanese rankings for each SF game.
Names are american, ie Vega is the spaniard.
SF2:WW
1. Guile 5. Blanka
2. Dhalsim 6. Zangief
3. Chun Li 7. Ryu and Ken
4. E Honda
I agreed with him about 1 and 2. As for the rest, in the words of
Ronald Reagan, "I'm afraid I don't recall that information".
SF2:CE
1. Bison 4. Dhalsim
2. Sagat 5. Vega
3. Guile
I agreed with Bison being first. I would have rated Vega higher,
because of his stand strong lockdown. (Walk forward, stand strong,
repeat, and the opponent can just let go of the joystick as he will be
locked in block stun for as long as you want). Bruce pointed out that
the japanese and US versions of CE are different. In the japanese
version, you can have the same lockdown with jab roll into
strong. However, in the US version it is different (not sure exactly
how).
SF2:HF
1. Ryu 4. Blanka
2. Sagat 5. Zangief
3. Ken
I wasn't too sure about Zangiefs high rating, but I was glad to see
someone else agree with me about Blanka's power in HF. Read later on for
more about Blanka power...
Super
1. Sagat 4. Ryu
2. T Hawk 5. Chun Li
3. Dhalsim
I pretty much agreed with these. I told them that I (as a T Hawk
player) always had had problems with super turtle Kens though. I
really think this is one of those fights where it pays to turtle like
a bitch. If ken gets knocked down once, it's game over, so I think his
best bet is to sit in the corner with his 25% jab DP ready and just
block. Anyways...
ST (no Akuma, no super chars)
1. Dee Jay
This is all they wrote (!). I asked them why do they think DJ is so
good. At this point, DJ (the guy) said he played DJ in ST. I told him
I would be happy to play him, as I thought Vega beat DJ 9-1.
I gave him my ST rankings, both including and excluding super chars:
With Super
1. Balrog 3. Old Ken
2. Old Sagat 4. Bison
Without Super
1. Balrog 5. Vega
2. Bison 6. Ryu
3. Dhalsim
SFA
1. Guy 4. Rose
2. Akuma 5. Ken
3. Ryu
I gave him the US rankings
1. Ken 4. Ryu
2. Guy 5. Rose
3. Akuma
Not much to say, we both agreed guy was insane. They didn't seem to
know about ken's roll lockdown, though.
SFA2
1. Chun Li 4. Adon
2. Charlie 5. Birdie
3. Rose
Hm. I was very suprised at these rankings. I asked why Charlie was so
high, and where was Ken?? Birdie I also found hard to believe. They
didn't give much justification for charlie, except that there were a
bunch of them in every tourney. Birdie they said was ranked so high
because of his low forward and his quick jump. I actually agree that
Adon could be really good. I've always thought he could be a real
terror in the right hands. I've also seem some US Adons that have
given me trouble.
I gave them the US rankings:
1. Ryu, Ken, Chun Li, Rose
5. Zangief, Sakura, Rolento
8. Everyone else
last 2. Dan, Gen
99. Birdie
They were supsicious about Sakura's ranking, and outright disbelieved
Zangief. I tried to explain about his 1/2 screen 50% CC, but they
still didn't believe. Since I can't play zangief, I couldn't show
them. I explained about sakura's annoying cross up too.
SFA3.
1. Akuma (V ism) 4. Ryu (V ism)
2. Dhalsim (Z ism) 5. Gen (Z ism)
3. Sakura (V ism)
Before having played the champions, I would have disputed these
rankings, but after getting worked, I just kept my mouth shut :)
SF3
1. Necro 5. Yun/Yang 10. Alex
2. Oro 7. Ken
3. Ibuki 8. Ryu
4. Sean 9. Elena
I don't know jack about SF3, so I didn't comment.
SF3:2i
1. Akuma 8. Ryu
2. Ibuki 9. Oro
3. Yun 10. Elena
4. Sean 11. Urien
5. Yang 12. Alex
6. Necro 13. Hugo
7. Ken
Again, I know nothing about SF3:2i, so I didn't comment much. Bruce
told me that DJ made the top 8 in the SF3:2i tourney in Japan, and was
the best Sean player there. I asked him if he used the basketball at
all (all I know about 2i is from the Vegas tourney, where the 2nd
place player used the basketball to set up all sorts of combos). They
seemed suprised and interested.
----------
After talking to bruce and DJ about the rankings, Bruce tells me is a
a Die-Hard master (hence the name - bruce willis). He offers to show
me how he can beat the game easily, but I would much rather at this
point play vs ONiku and the others on the machines now in normal
mode. We put off die-hard till later.
I go back to the SFA3 machines which are now on normal mode. I see
some V Sakura player racking up wins, so I decide to challenge him. I
lose about 3 times against him with my rolento. He juggles in the
corner with her pogo jump and uses general VC nastiness to blow
through most of my moves. I look on the other machine to see who this
guy is, and sure enough it is ONuki. He gets about 25 wins before
losing to V Charlie.
Oh yeah, at the end of the exibition match, Earth Sodom and ONuki
played each other. It was a VERY close game, going to the last round
of the last game. Very fun to watch. Of course, I was rooting for the
Mizer all the way :)
There was also a girl who had about 25 wins with X Chun Li!! I
couldn't believe it. Kuni, Atsuki and I all tried to play her at least
once, and we all lost... Man... I'm ready to retire and go become a
priest now.
After that rather humiliating bout of SFA3, we were all ready to go
have lunch. Atsuki left us, and Mayumi, Nagasaki, Bruce, DJ, Kuni, and
I went to get some okonomiyaki. Mayumi very generously treated us. She
also lent me some of her self published books on Magic the Gathering.
After that, we went to another arcade where an ST machine was. First I
played Vega against DJ's DJ. I won rather convincingly with repeated
wall dives. I was then promptly taken off the machine by Nagasaki's
honda.
We played around taking turns, but I managed to always beat DJ's DJ
with Vega. I also got a nice win streak with Old Ryu and his Hadouken
missile silo. Hadouuuken! Hadouuuken! Hadouuken! Hadouuuken! Bruce
told me I was "Dai Sugoi" with ryu, which means "really good". I also
got a pretty long streak with Vega, mostly because ppl insisted on
playing Zangief (!) against me, who has of course no chance - or so I
thought. Finally, I had a large Balrog win streak, because, well,
because it's Balrog.
Well, I was feeling pretty good about myself, having at least proved
that the US knows what it's doing for ST, if not A3.
However, in walked this random guy and his girlfriend. He comes in,
and picks Blanka. New Blanka. I'm not too worried, but he starts off
game 1 by jumping over a FB, jump fierce, stand strong, ball -> dizzy,
repeat, no life. I die. He also wins round 2 somehow. Arg, I can't
believe I ended my win streak by losing to Blanka. But then I see
everyone else is losing to this guy too! What the heck? I start to pay
attention, and this guy is good... REALLY good. In fact, he's awesome!
Blanka's crossover forward is perhaps the widest crossover in the
game! It crosses up like KKK Gen's jump forward! This guy is doing
combos like crossover forward, low forw, stand strong, stand strong,
or cr forw, low forw, stand strong, ball! Against Kuni, he does a
Blankaball which hits, *immediately* another blankaball going the
other way, into crossunder electricity!! Wow.
I lose about 3 games of Old ryu vs this guy (he is still undefeated,
even with really good players playing against him, including really
good bisons. Finally, I decide that enough is enough, and I pick Vega,
thinking it will be a free win. It isn't! I lose both rounds! He
manages to fierce slide every low strong I do, and blankaball every
slide I do... crazy! I just can't touch him. Finally, I pick Balrog
(this guy must have had about 15 wins by now). I think there is NO
POSSIBLE WAY Balrog can lose to blanka.
I'm wrong.
When I knock him down, I try for a wake up low forward on him. He does
a *reversal* hopback kick into jab blankaball, then crossover death
with forward. Once he has me crossed up, he keeps jumping back and
forth over with forward.. You can't get out! Eventually, he lands a
dizzy combo and kills me. This guy is just amazing! Well he eventually
loses to Kuni's Zangief, but this guy was probably the best blanka
player in the world! He even kind of looked like blanka :). He had
long hair, was short with a stocky build, and had long arms. Hmm...
After he left, some other guy started coming in. He played Zangief,
and at this point I just wanted a free win, so I picked Vega. Now it's
been another common net consensus that Vega just destroys
Zangief. Just go off the wall and claw.. it hits everything right?
It's even on tape for some random LA tourney. Well this guy found out
how to beat that strategy! He walks up just a fraction of an inch and
does low fierce. Yes, low fierce, and it hits vega clean out of his
claw sweep. Even a really really early claw sweep. I actually lose 3
games of Vega vs Zangief, something I thought was utterly
impossible. I would have bet anyone $100 they couldn't beat me 3 games
of Vega vs Zangief.
Well, Japan is the king of A3 and ST :). If anyone wants to come to
Tokyo after new years, there may be a mini mini gathering. I can get
in touch with most of these guys, and you can play the best A3 and ST
in Tokyo :)
-Julien
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Jinston
guy used w/ her.
As for the Sodom VC, you forgot one BIG detail WHICH activator?
As for the Akuma VC, he just continually jab uppercutted? Don't they fall
after 2? He didn't try a strong DP and a standing jab to continue the
juggle? And how could he continually juggle w/ the Elbow Slide? You could
just flip out and kick 'em in the head!
I skipped some of what you posted, did you define your definition of Combo?
Some people say you CANNOT flip out for it to be a combo, even if you're
able to continue no matter what. Others say, as long as the opponent
continually gets hit w/o lying on the floor or blocking.
Did Daigo ever show up?
Jinston
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Jack Lin a.k.a Zangief104
On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Jinston wrote:
> Yes! V-Sakura is a HIGH rater. I'd like to know what combos that japanese
> guy used w/ her.
> As for the Sodom VC, you forgot one BIG detail WHICH activator?
> As for the Akuma VC, he just continually jab uppercutted? Don't they fall
> after 2? He didn't try a strong DP and a standing jab to continue the
> juggle? And how could he continually juggle w/ the Elbow Slide? You could
> just flip out and kick 'em in the head!
What's my Gamest Mook translation for?
n00body
j...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <73vrp9$iu6$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
<OMNI...>
>
>However, in walked this random guy and his girlfriend. He comes in,
>and picks Blanka. New Blanka. I'm not too worried, but he starts off
>game 1 by jumping over a FB, jump fierce, stand strong, ball -> dizzy,
>repeat, no life. I die. He also wins round 2 somehow. Arg, I can't
>believe I ended my win streak by losing to Blanka. But then I see
>everyone else is losing to this guy too! What the heck? I start to pay
>attention, and this guy is good... REALLY good. In fact, he's awesome!
<SLASH>
Goes to show you that...people can win with ANYONE if they're good
enough.
KEVIN HECKMAN
Wow, great post Julien. I have some random comments/questions.
[snip]
Jb> BTW, Mayumi recognized me from the US SFA2 book when I was at the
Jb> tokyo game show. How cool is that?
I hope you enjoyed your 15 minutes of fame. =)
Jb> Earth Sodom is super aggressive. His basic playstyle is to attack the
Jb> shit out of you to charge meter, and then VC you. Sodom's VC is
Which VC did he use?
Jb> particularly effective, as it fits the requirements for effective VC's
Jb> (see my later analysis). His VC is low forward into fierce rush,
BTW I didn't see any analysis of VCs...did you forget it?
Jb> Round 2 wasn't quite as spectacular, but I lost. Kuni later points out
Jb> you can countermash during the VC to reduce damage by up to 40%.
Just what every game needs, more mashing.
Jb> SF2:HF
Jb> 1. Ryu 4. Blanka
Jb> 2. Sagat 5. Zangief
Jb> 3. Ken
Where's Guile in this? He should at least be in the top 5 IMO.
Jb> SFA3.
Jb> 1. Akuma (V ism) 4. Ryu (V ism)
Jb> 2. Dhalsim (Z ism) 5. Gen (Z ism)
Jb> 3. Sakura (V ism)
What happened to X-Dhalsim? IIRC in the Sunnyvale tourney a few had
switched over to Z-ism, but I've never heard any reason for the
choice...
[snip a bunch of cool ST info]
One obvious point in ST's favor is that our perceptions of the game can
be radically changed even after, what, four years since its release?
That speaks volumes for the depth of the game, especially now that most
games are played out within six months.
Anyway, thanks for the post. That was a labor of love for agsf2. =)
-----
K.S. Heckman (Username: "ronin23". Domain name: "bigfoot.com".)
(If you can't figure it out, you shouldn't be emailing me.) fnord.
... I have the heart of a child. I keep it in a jar.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30 [NR]
Jinston
I didn't read them. The use of the japanese names for the moves was too
much work for me to go look up and translate. Were these in the Gamest
Mook? And while on the topic, what the heck does "Gamest Mook" mean?
Jack Lin a.k.a Zangief104
Don't get close, or I will SPD you.
Don't just stand there, or I will FAB you.
Don't play keepaway, I have a long guard meter and time is running out.
Jack Lin aka Zangief104
On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Jinston wrote:
>
> I didn't read them. The use of the japanese names for the moves was too
> much work for me to go look up and translate. Were these in the Gamest
> Mook? And while on the topic, what the heck does "Gamest Mook" mean?
As I said the reason why I used Japanese names is because it is OFFICIAL.
U can get these Japanese names from Kao's SFA3 move list....These were
definitely in the Gamest Mook. It is impossible to make'em up by
myself....Heck, I don't know what "Mook" means either. Someone help!
Beef
strategies or overwhelming moves to these two that I don't know about? I
would LOVE a response.
Mark
Poster and Speaker of Useless
Things, Holder of Big Sigs and Milwaukee Man
Extrordinaire.
SF Code v5.0
{K(SFA2)++ R(II)++ I(I)+>++ All(EX+@)+}
[ac ch- cn c+ cc+ 2+ g m+ n+:- o++ os+ p
r(++ARK) +s+ sp- st+ ta t tm-- th- tr--:+ v++]
Ultima
[cool stuff SLASHED]
> He gave me the following list of Japanese rankings for each SF game.
> Names are american, ie Vega is the spaniard.
> SF2:WW
> 1. Guile 5. Blanka
> 2. Dhalsim 6. Zangief
> 3. Chun Li 7. Ryu and Ken
> 4. E Honda
> I agreed with him about 1 and 2. As for the rest, in the words of
> Ronald Reagan, "I'm afraid I don't recall that information".
No real argument here I suppose. Though I question Zangief - didn't his
ticks count for anything?
> SF2:CE
> 1. Bison 4. Dhalsim
> 2. Sagat 5. Vega
> 3. Guile
>
> I agreed with Bison being first. I would have rated Vega higher,
> because of his stand strong lockdown. (Walk forward, stand strong,
> repeat, and the opponent can just let go of the joystick as he will be
> locked in block stun for as long as you want). Bruce pointed out that
> the japanese and US versions of CE are different. In the japanese
> version, you can have the same lockdown with jab roll into
> strong. However, in the US version it is different (not sure exactly
> how).
Can't really argue here, as I didn't play CE as extensively as HF. I
though Ryu and Ken were higher ranked though, and Vega was ranked lower.
I didn't know about that s.strong block-stun bit though...
> SF2:HF
> 1. Ryu 4. Blanka
> 2. Sagat 5. Zangief
> 3. Ken
> I wasn't too sure about Zangiefs high rating, but I was glad to see
> someone else agree with me about Blanka's power in HF. Read later on for more about Blanka power...
Huh. I question Ken being that high. Where's Dhalsim? Where's Guile?
Blanka can be dangerous, though I thought that was only my opinion.
Hell, I thought he was at his all time best in HF.
> Super
> 1. Sagat 4. Ryu
> 2. T Hawk 5. Chun Li
> 3. Dhalsim
>
> I pretty much agreed with these. I told them that I (as a T Hawk
> player) always had had problems with super turtle Kens though. I
> really think this is one of those fights where it pays to turtle like
> a bitch. If ken gets knocked down once, it's game over, so I think his
> best bet is to sit in the corner with his 25% jab DP ready and just
> block. Anyways...
Little experience with this game, since I out-right loathed it. I knew
that T.Hawk was highly ranked in Japan in Super, but most people I've
listened to think that's garbage. *Shrug* Oh well, not my game...
[snarf ST and SFA rankings]
> SFA2
> 1. Chun Li 4. Adon
> 2. Charlie 5. Birdie
> 3. Rose
[snarf Julien's comments]
I think we'd have to see them perform before we believe that Birdie is
that high. Adon I would be more readily be able to accept. Charlie I
thought was good before, then I encountere CC abuse and thought he,
well, still good, but not The Big Four. And he's ranked second in Japan.
I guess we'll have to see how they play first...
> SFA3.
> 1. Akuma (V ism) 4. Ryu (V ism)
> 2. Dhalsim (Z ism) 5. Gen (Z ism)
> 3. Sakura (V ism)
>
> Before having played the champions, I would have disputed these
> rankings, but after getting worked, I just kept my mouth shut :)
Why A-Dhalsim over X-Dhalsim? The rest I guess I don't question, though
I'd like to know where previous (and for many of us, current) killer
characters like Rolento, X-Dhalsim, A-Ryu, V-Vega and X-Rose are
ranked...
> SF3
> 1. Necro 5. Yun/Yang 10. Alex
> 2. Oro 7. Ken
> 3. Ibuki 8. Ryu
> 4. Sean 9. Elena
>
> I don't know jack about SF3, so I didn't comment.
HUH. Y/Y 5th??? WoW! That goes against nearly everything everyone says
here! And Alex DEAD LAST??? WTF??? I know he dies to certain chaarcters,
but dead last? I mean, surely he's better than *Elena*??? Christ..! O_O
> SF3:2i
> 1. Akuma 8. Ryu
> 2. Ibuki 9. Oro
> 3. Yun 10. Elena
> 4. Sean 11. Urien
> 5. Yang 12. Alex
> 6. Necro 13. Hugo
> 7. Ken
> Again, I know nothing about SF3:2i, so I didn't comment much. [snip]
Hah. No real argument here except (though I would have place Ibuki no.1
and Akuma no.2) for the last 5. Or rather their order. I still can't
believe that Alex is lower than Elena, and even lower than Urien???
BUllshit, says I. Oro I really don't know about, since I've never seen
anybody use him.
[chomp]
> There was also a girl who had about 25 wins with X Chun Li!! I
> couldn't believe it. Kuni, Atsuki and I all tried to play her at least
> once, and we all lost... Man... I'm ready to retire and go become a
> priest now.
ENT! I'm not sure which is more interesting: The fact that X-Chun Li was
racking up 25 wins, or the fact that a girl was playing. Face it: When
was the last time any of YOU saw a girl playing an SF game, much less
racking up a win streak (and to be more specific, YOU lost to?) I saw a
girl playing HF a few times last summer when I went home. She was
playing Ken (like 95% of all players there do, regardless of the game),
and was actually fairly good (somewhere above scrub level). She was
getting a few wins here and there, but I went in and promptly destroyed
her ass (she was ugly as hell in case anyone cares; plus, she was way to
young for me :). The last time I remember seeing a girl play prior to
that was in CE - some 10 year old chinese girl who was beating the shit
out of men twice her age and size. I never played her, so I can honestly
say I've never lost to a girl in my life.. ^_^
[snip cool ST play experience]
Damn. Anyone remember the j-rankings for ST? Dee Jay is no.1, as Julien
said, but I think after that it gets strange (Chu Li is no.2 I think). I
forget where Blanka is ranked. I wonder if this will have any effect on
the us ST rankings... :\
> After he left, some other guy started coming in. He played Zangief,
> and at this point I just wanted a free win, so I picked Vega. Now it's
> been another common net consensus that Vega just destroys
> Zangief. Just go off the wall and claw.. it hits everything right?
> It's even on tape for some random LA tourney. Well this guy found out
> how to beat that strategy! He walks up just a fraction of an inch and
> does low fierce. Yes, low fierce, and it hits vega clean out of his
> claw sweep. Even a really really early claw sweep. I actually lose 3
> games of Vega vs Zangief, something I thought was utterly
> impossible. I would have bet anyone $100 they couldn't beat me 3 games
> of Vega vs Zangief.
Alrighty then. Now who was it that said that Vega beats Zangief 10-0
because of this tactic?
Query though Julien: What about low strong? I thoughy Vega could keep Z
out with just endless low strongs, and flip kick if he jumped? Did you
try this at all, or is there already a well-known means to beat this?
> Well, Japan is the king of A3 and ST :).
[snip, since I don't think I'll be coming to Tokyo anytime soon :p ]
Great. Seems like the US players don't know everything after all...
One last thing: You said "Umehara (Daigo) who went to the US is NOT the
a2 champ. ONuki is. He won A2 and SF3:2i" - Did you mean A3? And if so,
does this reflect even worse upon the US players and the US state of SF?
o_O
--
Ultima
http://members.xoom.com/Ultima1 - The Street Fighter RPG Manifesto!
http://members.xoom.com/ShinUltima - U's Ultimate Rambling Page
"If an arcade doesn't have a version of SF or SS in it, then it's not an
arcade"
Chocobo
> j...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > SFA2
> > 1. Chun Li 4. Adon
> > 2. Charlie 5. Birdie
> > 3. Rose
>
> [snarf Julien's comments]
>
> I think we'd have to see them perform before we believe that Birdie is
> that high. Adon I would be more readily be able to accept. Charlie I
> thought was good before, then I encountere CC abuse and thought he,
> well, still good, but not The Big Four. And he's ranked second in Japan.
> I guess we'll have to see how they play first...
I would be extremely interested in seeing or hearing about how they're playing A2 over there, with those
rankings. I acknowledge that there are a bunch of unbelievably skillful players there, but Birdie... he's
just crap. He dies to everyone in the game... I simply can't imagine it. Charlie is pretty weak overall
and doesn't have a huge CC, and Adon is limited because all of his specials are CC food... well, who
knows.
>
> > SFA3.
> > 1. Akuma (V ism) 4. Ryu (V ism)
> > 2. Dhalsim (Z ism) 5. Gen (Z ism)
> > 3. Sakura (V ism)
> >
> > Before having played the champions, I would have disputed these
> > rankings, but after getting worked, I just kept my mouth shut :)
>
> Why A-Dhalsim over X-Dhalsim? The rest I guess I don't question, though
> I'd like to know where previous (and for many of us, current) killer
> characters like Rolento, X-Dhalsim, A-Ryu, V-Vega and X-Rose are
> ranked...
I think probably only one ISM per character is listed, and since Aism is a bit better at high skill
levels, he's the Dhalsim of choice. V-Vega is nothing special, and Rolento is really strong but once you
get past the jabs (and I'm sure those Japanese players can) he's very beatable.
Team Red Herring
It's always nice to read the adventures of Julien in Japan.
Way to go, bro!
> On Sunday, Nov 13, at Shinjuku sportsland arcade, there was an SF
> exhibition match. The top 3 japanese sfa3 players, Daigo Umehara,
> ONuki, and "Earth Sodom" were to play exhibition matches. There were 4
> head to head machines, with one champion on each machine. You went and
> played each champion in a row, and then went to the final HtH machine
> which held the best challenger so far. Signups started at 10am.
If I remember correctly, these three were the top finishers
in the Super Battle tournament, since the characters they
played were exactly the same. I wish I could read kanji
expertly so I could make out their real names. Oh yeah,
'Sunnyvale Rolento', who gave you that nick-name? So, did
they call Alex Valle 'Los Angeles Ryu' in the TV telecast
of the US versus Japan fight?
> BTW, Mayumi recognized me from the US SFA2 book when I was at the
> tokyo game show. How cool is that?
The eternal question. Totally cool, to me at least. Where
did she buy the book in Japan, anyway?
> I talk some with Bruce and DJ. DJ was top 16 in the Japan Vampire
> Savior tournament, and the single best Sean player in the SF3:2i
> tourney, where he made top 8. We talk about various strategies in
> various fighting games for a while as we wait for our turns to come up
> vs the champs.
I believe the VS tournament was part of 1997 16th Gamest Cup,
but I may be wrong. I think the top three used Oboro Bishamon
and Aulbath (Rikuo). BTW, this year's (1998) 17th Gamest Cup
is highlighted by the Psychic Force 2012 (pronounced
twenty-twelve) World Championship, which I believe was held
in October.
> Earth Sodom is super aggressive. His basic playstyle is to attack the
> shit out of you to charge meter, and then VC you. Sodom's VC is
> particularly effective, as it fits the requirements for effective VC's
> (see my later analysis). His VC is low forward into fierce rush,
> repeat. This is a tight VC.. if you do anything but block, it will
> start comboing. When it starts comboing, only the fierce rushes hit,
> but he does the low forwards anyways to keep up the rythym. Whats nice
> about this VC is that it gets you into the corner immediately, so all
> the nice corner juggling applies. The other nice thing about this VC
> is that he can do a PB at the end if you were blocking "for free".
Man, that is awesome. If it does put you in the corner, then
the Sodom half-meter VC (Jab+Short VC, 2 Jab Jigoku Scrapes,
Strong Jigoku, Daikyo Burning) can be easily done, and would
eat your life for free.
> There are two main modes for his corner VC's. One is repeated jab
> DPs. The other is shoulder fierce (the ryu-like move where he rams you
> with his shoulder and elbow) into jab FB. The jab FB's never hit (they
> go under you when you are juggled), but they cancel the shoulder and
> let akuma recover in time to shoulder you again. I didn't understand
> exactly how this worked, but ONuki would use the repeated jab DPs on
> low juggles, where the opponent would be closer to the ground, falling
> normally. When he used the shoulder VC, the opponent would be bounced
> much higher in the air.
I thought you can't juggle with multiple Jab DPs? What was the
VC activation?
> One particulary cool fight was when ONuki was playing vs a Z gen. It
> was down to the the third round, and both players had only a bit of
> life left. Gen gets a DP off and juggles for 6 hits. As he lands, he
> does the level 3 rising super to grab ONuki and win the match. In
> response to the super's activation, ONuki activates VC, and
> AIR-COUNTERTHROWS Gen out of his super!! Simply amazing.
That must be pretty cool to watch! VC air throws, wow!
> Another thing both champions did was to charge their meter by repeated
> whiffing throws. This is the fastest and safest way to charge meter,
> much faster than repeated air HK's.
I'll try to remember that the next time I play.
> SF2:CE
> 1. Bison 4. Dhalsim
> 2. Sagat 5. Vega
> 3. Guile
>
> I agreed with Bison being first. I would have rated Vega higher,
> because of his stand strong lockdown. (Walk forward, stand strong,
> repeat, and the opponent can just let go of the joystick as he will be
> locked in block stun for as long as you want). Bruce pointed out that
> the japanese and US versions of CE are different. In the japanese
> version, you can have the same lockdown with jab roll into
> strong. However, in the US version it is different (not sure exactly
> how).
The other difference that I remember was that Balrog was
missing his Final Punch in US CE. I thought Guile was
second, anyone care to explain why Sagat pipped him?
> SFA2
> 1. Chun Li 4. Adon
> 2. Charlie 5. Birdie
> 3. Rose
>
> Hm. I was very suprised at these rankings. I asked why Charlie was so
> high, and where was Ken?? Birdie I also found hard to believe. They
> didn't give much justification for charlie, except that there were a
> bunch of them in every tourney. Birdie they said was ranked so high
> because of his low forward and his quick jump. I actually agree that
> Adon could be really good. I've always thought he could be a real
> terror in the right hands. I've also seem some US Adons that have
> given me trouble.
I once told Kao Megura the same thing (Charlie being higher
in the Japanese rankings) though I didn't know the reason why
either. Well, KM, if you still don't believe me, then believe
this. Adon is underrated by US players, as proven by the
Japanese rankings, since I have played against Adons that
provided a good challenge here.
> I gave them the US rankings:
> 1. Ryu, Ken, Chun Li, Rose
> 5. Zangief, Sakura, Rolento
> 8. Everyone else
> last 2. Dan, Gen
> 99. Birdie
I thought Sagat was joint 5th with Zangief and Sakura?
> They were supsicious about Sakura's ranking, and outright disbelieved
> Zangief. I tried to explain about his 1/2 screen 50% CC, but they
> still didn't believe. Since I can't play zangief, I couldn't show
> them. I explained about sakura's annoying cross up too.
Sakura's SFZ2 crossup Forward, how I missed that move in A3.
> SF3
> 1. Necro 5. Yun/Yang 10. Alex
> 2. Oro 7. Ken
> 3. Ibuki 8. Ryu
> 4. Sean 9. Elena
>
> I don't know jack about SF3, so I didn't comment.
How come Yun/Yang was only 5th? I thought they were always
1&2 in both III and 2I? Maybe their small dizzy meter
affected their rankings, but then how did Ibuki reached
3rd? I generally agree with the rest, but I think Ken
should be at least 3rd or 4th.
> SF3:2i
> 1. Akuma 8. Ryu
> 2. Ibuki 9. Oro
> 3. Yun 10. Elena
> 4. Sean 11. Urien
> 5. Yang 12. Alex
> 6. Necro 13. Hugo
> 7. Ken
>
> Again, I know nothing about SF3:2i, so I didn't comment much. Bruce
> told me that DJ made the top 8 in the SF3:2i tourney in Japan, and was
> the best Sean player there. I asked him if he used the basketball at
> all (all I know about 2i is from the Vegas tourney, where the 2nd
> place player used the basketball to set up all sorts of combos). They
> seemed suprised and interested.
Again, I agree generally with this ranking, grapplers just
can't beat them, what with the pathetic throw range (Hugo's
720 range is awful!).
> Blanka's crossover forward is perhaps the widest crossover in the
> game! It crosses up like KKK Gen's jump forward! This guy is doing
> combos like crossover forward, low forw, stand strong, stand strong,
> or cr forw, low forw, stand strong, ball! Against Kuni, he does a
> Blankaball which hits, *immediately* another blankaball going the
> other way, into crossunder electricity!! Wow.
I tend to suck at comboing charge specials, and I really
respect this guy's Blanka. He could do the low forward,
stand Strong, Roll, one of the true skill combos IMO ever!
This combo worked in SF2' Turbo, so the earlier ranking
is also justified.
> Well, Japan is the king of A3 and ST :). If anyone wants to come to
> Tokyo after new years, there may be a mini mini gathering. I can get
> in touch with most of these guys, and you can play the best A3 and ST
> in Tokyo :)
You heard the man, anyone who wants to go to Tokyo and play
with real SFZ3 and ST competition should contact him,
ASAP.
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>
> I didn't read them. The use of the japanese names for the moves was too
> much work for me to go look up and translate. Were these in the Gamest
> Mook? And while on the topic, what the heck does "Gamest Mook" mean?
>
Kao Megura's FAQ has the translations, and besides, you
only need to know the motions, you don't actually need
to 'translate' the moves already. Anyway, the majority
of players like to use official names.
A 'Mook' is a combination of two words, magazine and
book. It's primarily a book, except you do sometimes
have ads in them and the paper as well as the size are
just like a magazine's.
j...@my-dejanews.com
kevin....@i.hate.spam.com (KEVIN HECKMAN) wrote:
> @SUBJECT:Tokyo A3 exhibition and ST [Report]
>
> Wow, great post Julien. I have some random comments/questions.
Thanks!
> Jb> Earth Sodom is super aggressive. His basic playstyle is to attack the
> Jb> shit out of you to charge meter, and then VC you. Sodom's VC is
>
> Which VC did he use?
Arg, I wasn't able to tell for sure. However, I think both players used
jab+short.
> Jb> particularly effective, as it fits the requirements for effective VC's
> Jb> (see my later analysis). His VC is low forward into fierce rush,
>
> BTW I didn't see any analysis of VCs...did you forget it?
Oops, I did forget. A successful VC has the following. -It can get you into
the corner quickly. All the best VC's are in the corner, where you can juggle
for insane damage. Both sodom and akuma's vc's can get you into the corner
very quickly (repeated fierce scrapes / DF->punch and red fb). O
-It is "tight". While blocked, it cannot be hit out of. Akuma's red fb and
DF->punch one is not 100% tight.. you can VC in between the red fb and the
df, but I think only a vc or dp works. Daigo and Onuki both did this in the
Japan championships (akuma vs akuma). However, akuma's repeat jab fb VC in
the corner is tight, as is Sodom's VC.
-It has an unblockable or very hard to block move in it. Akuma can do the
DF-> throw or DF->punch to grab a blocking opponent in the VC. Sodom has his
PB. This is acutally more powerful than sfa2 CC's, because you couldn't throw
opponents in a sfa2 CC.
> Jb> Round 2 wasn't quite as spectacular, but I lost. Kuni later points out
> Jb> you can countermash during the VC to reduce damage by up to 40%.
>
> Just what every game needs, more mashing.
Kuni pointed out that mashing isn't the same problem in japan as in the US,
since arcade operators fix sticks and buttons immediately and well here.
Makes me sick to my stomach remembering the "bad old days" of MIT, waiting 2
weeks for the arcade idiot to notice the huge sign saying FIX LEFT JOYSTICK!
FIX RIGHT JAB AND ROUNDHOUSE!
> Jb> SF2:HF
> Jb> 1. Ryu 4. Blanka
> Jb> 2. Sagat 5. Zangief
> Jb> 3. Ken
>
> Where's Guile in this? He should at least be in the top 5 IMO.
I agree Guile would place higher than Zangief, at least.
> Jb> SFA3.
> Jb> 1. Akuma (V ism) 4. Ryu (V ism)
> Jb> 2. Dhalsim (Z ism) 5. Gen (Z ism)
> Jb> 3. Sakura (V ism)
>
> What happened to X-Dhalsim? IIRC in the Sunnyvale tourney a few had
> switched over to Z-ism, but I've never heard any reason for the
> choice...
I personally thinik V Dhalsim is better than X or Z. V can use the VC in the
same places where X or Z would set up a supercombo (after a slide or
something), and do better damage.
> [snip a bunch of cool ST info]
>
> One obvious point in ST's favor is that our perceptions of the game can
> be radically changed even after, what, four years since its release?
> That speaks volumes for the depth of the game, especially now that most
> games are played out within six months.
No kidding. I just don't understand people who say that ST is anything but
the best fighting game ever. Any character, and I mean ANY character can win
a tournament. That blanka player would have mopped the floor with everyone I
saw at the last US ST tournament in Vegas this summer. People say ST is all
about mismatches. I used to think that too, but now I've realized that there
are more to these matches than what we all thought. That's the great thing
about ST.. there are so many tiny little things that can make the difference
of a game. For example: People used to think THawk vs MBison was a free win
for Bison. It was, until the jump far jab into SPD repeat tick was found.
Then it was a free win the other way. Then the low forward counter to that
jump jab was found. Now THawk can alternate between splash and jump jab to
confuse bison. It's a very fair fight. And it used to be a 9-1. We saw Bob
Painter take 1st place with Honda. We saw jumpsuit Jesse take 2nd with Fei
Long. Yes, anyone can win in ST. It is the most balanced SF ever, and the
best. I see win streaks with every character here in tokyo. And these guys do
NOT suck. ST is the best. Not HF, not A2, not A3, not CE. No one plays HF or
A2 or any other SF now except ST and A3. In fact, I'm tired of A3 already. I
feel like there is nothing new when I play rolento. I'm learning Gen now, and
he's fun, but there is nothing really *new*. Like in A2, after I played chun
li for a few months, i really felt there was nothing new I could learn with
her. Only perfecting and practicing what I already new. That is not fun for
me. What is fun for me is learning a totally new strategy in a fight. And in
ST, there are hundreds of effective strategies. Plus, ST is really solid.
There's no random spazzing and jabbing and whatnot like in the alphas. Every
move in a well played game of ST is done with a purpose in mind. You can
watch two players play and follow the reason for every normal, every special,
every jump. It's not like A3 where people are jabbing and jumping like mad.
Anyways, enough rambling. Anyone who has made a trip for one of these large US
gatherings should definitely make a trip to Tokyo. You simply cannot be
disappointed in any way.
> Anyway, thanks for the post. That was a labor of love for agsf2. =)
-Julien
--
Da Mizer
seth james killian
>Another thing both champions did was to charge their meter by repeated
>whiffing throws. This is the fastest and safest way to charge meter,
>much faster than repeated air HK's.
Although I have zero A3 skill, I had meant to mention this a
while ago. It's worth noting, since outside of some specials, almost
nothing short of actually touching your opponent charges meter in A3.
Now I've missed my chance to add anything to A3 discussions, other than
my *old* prediction that VCs would pretty much HAVE to rule A3. Xism
my ass...
>Mistake.
>He activates VC, goes into jab DP. Follows into red FB into DF->punch
>till I am in the corner. Then does repeated jab uppercuts which for
>some reason do huge damage. As the VC ends, he juggles into a DP which
>does more damage than normal and then jumps and airthrows me. 100% damage.
Haha. Busted.
Any clue as to the variable VC damage? It really does seem to
vary pretty wildly- much more than CCs ever seemed to, even in extreme
situations (like you have no life when performing the CC)...
>Round 2 wasn't quite as spectacular, but I lost. Kuni later points out
>you can countermash during the VC to reduce damage by up to 40%.
?? Is there any method to this, or is it a pure mash? How
is this supposed to reduce damage (as in, what does it do that makes
you get hit/hurt less?)?
>He gave me the following list of Japanese rankings for each SF game.
>Names are american, ie Vega is the spaniard.
>SF2:WW
>1. Guile 5. Blanka
>2. Dhalsim 6. Zangief
>3. Chun Li 7. Ryu and Ken
>4. E Honda
>I agreed with him about 1 and 2. As for the rest, in the words of
>Ronald Reagan, "I'm afraid I don't recall that information".
This is pretty much exactly right. I might put Blanka ahead of
Honda, but that's probably just wishful thinking. The virtual complete
agreement here is a good sign. The least complex SF (and I don't want
to take anything away from WW, which was the most revolutionary game
of all time) has been completely analyzed, and top players agree
completely.
>SF2:CE
>1. Bison 4. Dhalsim
>2. Sagat 5. Vega
>3. Guile
>I agreed with Bison being first. I would have rated Vega higher,
>because of his stand strong lockdown. (Walk forward, stand strong,
>repeat, and the opponent can just let go of the joystick as he will be
>locked in block stun for as long as you want). Bruce pointed out that
>the japanese and US versions of CE are different. In the japanese
>version, you can have the same lockdown with jab roll into
>strong. However, in the US version it is different (not sure exactly
>how).
Vega also had a cr. jab lockdown, although IIRC, you could reverse
all of these, although some characters (ie Chun Li) "reversals" (the SBK)
didn't hit in the first frame, so they couldn't get out. Vega also
sported the "mini Lism" 25% damage throw, unsoftenable. Sweet.
Anyway, Bison has to be #1, and Sagat is up there as well,
although I would perhaps put Guile ahead of him overall, and I'd
still put Ryu over Vega.
>SF2:HF
>1. Ryu 4. Blanka
>2. Sagat 5. Zangief
>3. Ken
>I wasn't too sure about Zangiefs high rating, but I was glad to see
>someone else agree with me about Blanka's power in HF. Read later on for
>more about Blanka power...
I think Blanka is either #2 or 3. Sagat's uppercut bug could be
a big annoying factor if you really worked it, but Ryu was a monster. I'd
get Ken entirely out of there- he's just an inferior Ryu, although I guess
he's no worse than middle tier in any event. Zangief is at his best ever
in HF, although I'm not sure if it's good enough to get #5. It would also
be interesting to see if the japanese knew about Balrog's very strange
redizzy combo, which I would think improves his ranking a lot, given that
he dizzies people easily. Dhalsim also isn't a complete pushover here
either, although he's a lot worse.
>Super
>1. Sagat 4. Ryu
>2. T Hawk 5. Chun Li
>3. Dhalsim
>I pretty much agreed with these. I told them that I (as a T Hawk
>player) always had had problems with super turtle Kens though. I
>really think this is one of those fights where it pays to turtle like
>a bitch. If ken gets knocked down once, it's game over, so I think his
>best bet is to sit in the corner with his 25% jab DP ready and just
>block. Anyways...
I don't see Chun being this high, and I'd put Dhalsim ahead of
Hawk at least, and probably Sagat.
>ST (no Akuma, no super chars)
>1. Dee Jay
>This is all they wrote (!). I asked them why do they think DJ is so
>good. At this point, DJ (the guy) said he played DJ in ST. I told him
>I would be happy to play him, as I thought Vega beat DJ 9-1.
>I gave him my ST rankings, both including and excluding super chars:
>With Super
>1. Balrog 3. Old Ken
>2. Old Sagat 4. Bison
>Without Super
>1. Balrog 5. Vega
>2. Bison 6. Ryu
>3. Dhalsim
>SFA
>1. Guy 4. Rose
>2. Akuma 5. Ken
>3. Ryu
>I gave him the US rankings
>1. Ken 4. Ryu
>2. Guy 5. Rose
>3. Akuma
>Not much to say, we both agreed guy was insane. They didn't seem to
>know about ken's roll lockdown, though.
Again, SFA1, a simple game. Minus knowledge of the roll trap,
again, their rankings are virtually identical.
>SFA2
>1. Chun Li 4. Adon
>2. Charlie 5. Birdie
>3. Rose
>Hm. I was very suprised at these rankings. I asked why Charlie was so
>high, and where was Ken?? Birdie I also found hard to believe. They
>didn't give much justification for charlie, except that there were a
>bunch of them in every tourney. Birdie they said was ranked so high
>because of his low forward and his quick jump. I actually agree that
>Adon could be really good. I've always thought he could be a real
>terror in the right hands. I've also seem some US Adons that have
>given me trouble.
Didn't Charlie have a bufferable cr. forward on japanese versions?
That would help him a LOT, although I don't know about #2. I heard
somewhere that japanese players didn't use Valle CCs, which is consistent
with the tournament footage I've seen, although that was fairly early
stuff. It would also make a little more sense out of these rankings,
although I too am baffled by Birdie. Have to see it to believe it.
Adon is possible. Given the general extremely aggressive style of
japanese SF, and Adon's HUGE CCs (I think they were the MOST damaging
in the game, weren't they?), it's possible. The rest of Adon's game
seems a little too thin though- who knows.
Also, if you don't AC a lot, Ken is worse, although it's still
hard to imagine him and Ryu totally out of the top 5.
>I gave them the US rankings:
>1. Ryu, Ken, Chun Li, Rose
>5. Zangief, Sakura, Rolento
>8. Everyone else
>last 2. Dan, Gen
>99. Birdie
>SFA3.
>1. Akuma (V ism) 4. Ryu (V ism)
>2. Dhalsim (Z ism) 5. Gen (Z ism)
>3. Sakura (V ism)
>Before having played the champions, I would have disputed these
>rankings, but after getting worked, I just kept my mouth shut :)
Indeed. Aism Dhalsim is definitely better than Xism, and we'll
see if Zism doesn't rise to the top in the end. Anyway, Vism rules.
>SF3
>1. Necro 5. Yun/Yang 10. Alex
>2. Oro 7. Ken
>3. Ibuki 8. Ryu
>4. Sean 9. Elena
>I don't know jack about SF3, so I didn't comment.
Maybe they know some anti-Y/Y stuff no one here does. Other than
that, it's believable I suppose, although I also suck at SF3.
>SF3:2i
>1. Akuma 8. Ryu
>2. Ibuki 9. Oro
>3. Yun 10. Elena
>4. Sean 11. Urien
>5. Yang 12. Alex
>6. Necro 13. Hugo
>7. Ken
>Again, I know nothing about SF3:2i, so I didn't comment much. Bruce
>told me that DJ made the top 8 in the SF3:2i tourney in Japan, and was
>the best Sean player there. I asked him if he used the basketball at
>all (all I know about 2i is from the Vegas tourney, where the 2nd
>place player used the basketball to set up all sorts of combos). They
>seemed suprised and interested.
I guess the lag into special grabs plays a big role in these
rankings. Might explain why grapplers do SO badly in both. Probably
some way to get out of all the grab attempts for free. Akuma is def.
the top here, with Ibuki close. I'm a little surprised to see Ryu
so low, but that's just from watching Alex probably.
>We played around taking turns, but I managed to always beat DJ's DJ
>with Vega. I also got a nice win streak with Old Ryu and his Hadouken
>missile silo. Hadouuuken! Hadouuuken! Hadouuken! Hadouuuken! Bruce
>told me I was "Dai Sugoi" with ryu, which means "really good".
Well, if they think that, we know they can't be *that* good :)
I also
>got a pretty long streak with Vega, mostly because ppl insisted on
>playing Zangief (!) against me, who has of course no chance - or so I
>thought. Finally, I had a large Balrog win streak, because, well,
>because it's Balrog.
>Well, I was feeling pretty good about myself, having at least proved
>that the US knows what it's doing for ST, if not A3.
[Blanka amazingness deleted]
Well, if you want to stick it to Blanka, I think the way to go
is to turtle the hell out of him. It's really a bitch, since Blanka's
only safe offense is a little fake in general, and usually only
situationally effective.
I had an old japanese ST tournament tape with a bunch of awesome
Blanka stuff- I do think Blanka beats a fair number of characters, but
overall can't convert. Still have to see it to believe it.
>After he left, some other guy started coming in. He played Zangief,
>and at this point I just wanted a free win, so I picked Vega. Now it's
>been another common net consensus that Vega just destroys
>Zangief. Just go off the wall and claw.. it hits everything right?
>It's even on tape for some random LA tourney. Well this guy found out
>how to beat that strategy! He walks up just a fraction of an inch and
>does low fierce. Yes, low fierce, and it hits vega clean out of his
>claw sweep. Even a really really early claw sweep. I actually lose 3
>games of Vega vs Zangief, something I thought was utterly
>impossible. I would have bet anyone $100 they couldn't beat me 3 games
>of Vega vs Zangief.
Indeed, ST wonders never cease. Now, after 5, 6? years, we know.
Of course, Vega still mashes Gief, but that makes it a hell of a lot closer.
In addition to the flip kick, try st.RH to take out almost all of Gief's
jumpins.
As always, great post Julien...
Seth Killian
Viscant
>>you can countermash during the VC to reduce damage by up to 40%.
>
> ?? Is there any method to this, or is it a pure mash? How
>is this supposed to reduce damage (as in, what does it do that makes
>you get hit/hurt less?)?
>
Well, it says on the machine. Damage reduction. Remember to move the
controller too. Mashing the buttons doesn't do quite as much, but if you
wiggle the controller back and forth quickly, you'll see the damage fall away.
If you're doing it right, you can get off with about 30% damage on eating
X-Dhaly's super. Nobody seems to do this. And it's the only way you can
survive when you know you're going to get tagged. On most supers, after the
first hit, mash like crazy! Sure, you're going to take out a few buttons, but
hey, you're also saving 15%. When you're caught in a VC, what I like to do is
just continually do the Alpha Counter motion. You get to reduce damage like
nobody's business and if you get lucky, you AC out of it. Oh boy.
(Interesting counter maneuver here. Intentionally break your VC when you
notice someone mashing. Strategy? How ironic...)
Now if we can only teach people blue blocking. If people get as good as that
as they did at parrying...hey, V-Cody might not get crushed on every jump in
after all.
--Viscant, The Icy Rose
seth james killian
>> What happened to X-Dhalsim? IIRC in the Sunnyvale tourney a few had
>> switched over to Z-ism, but I've never heard any reason for the
>> choice...
>I personally thinik V Dhalsim is better than X or Z. V can use the VC in the
>same places where X or Z would set up a supercombo (after a slide or
>something), and do better damage.
A is better than X because the supers are *almost* as easy to hit
with, do as much damage, and are a lot more versatile. Also, airblocking is
a plus, if a small one for Dhalsim, but the controllable air limbs help
a lot, as does the ability to AC in critical "I'm getting VC'd" situations.
I think Vism Dhalsim is pretty cool, but requires way more skill
than I can bring to the table right now. We'll see.
>> [snip a bunch of cool ST info]
>>
>> One obvious point in ST's favor is that our perceptions of the game can
>> be radically changed even after, what, four years since its release?
>> That speaks volumes for the depth of the game, especially now that most
>> games are played out within six months.
>No kidding. I just don't understand people who say that ST is anything but
>the best fighting game ever. Any character, and I mean ANY character can win
>a tournament.
Frighteningly true :) You've got this secret Blanka, Bob won
one with Honda, I've won one with Chun Li, everyone should have a healthy
fear of Zangief (and Hawk, if anyone played him)...
That blanka player would have mopped the floor with everyone I
>saw at the last US ST tournament in Vegas this summer.
No need to hurt my feelings there, I already know I was sucking
a big butt- fortunately so was most everyone else. Vegas was a grueling
SF experience at times :)
People say ST is all
>about mismatches. I used to think that too, but now I've realized that there
>are more to these matches than what we all thought. That's the great thing
>about ST.. there are so many tiny little things that can make the difference
>of a game.
I'd say that's the great thing about SF generally. All the tiny,
tiny differences that mean the world. But ST has the most of these, and
they make the most interesting kinds of differences.
It's noticing a point like this that makes threads like "Akuma...
misused?" so thoroughly retarded- just because Akuma is good in A3, and
very similar to his A2 form means NOTHING about how good he is in A2,
or any other version for that matter. Look at Guile- he's gotten better
in terms of abilities over the development of SF2, but consistently sank
in the rankings anyway. It's the little things, and especially the
relation of one character to the others that matters. Balrog went from
the WORST character in any SF in CE to a serious contender, perhaps top
tier in HF, with what really amounted to minor changes. The little
things make ALL the differences.
[more brilliant defense of why there can be only one...ST, deleted]
St is just *it* baby. Come and play.
Seth Killian
sol t kim
he's even below elena? how can anyone be lower than elena in the
ranking???? i'm stunned with disbelief. on the otherhand, this means alex
is gonna be sooo much better in 3i, so i'll just shut my mouth and be
happy. (they have to make him better, he's the main character now,
remember?)
In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.981201...@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu>,
--
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
>Mistake.
>He activates VC, goes into jab DP. Follows into red FB into DF->punch
>till I am in the corner. Then does repeated jab uppercuts which for
>some reason do huge damage. As the VC ends, he juggles into a DP which
>does more damage than normal and then jumps and airthrows me. 100% damage.
No flipouts allowed here? Weird.
>Round 2 wasn't quite as spectacular, but I lost. Kuni later points out
>you can countermash during the VC to reduce damage by up to 40%.
Yah, "red block". Only in some modes I think.
>SFA2
>1. Chun Li 4. Adon
>2. Charlie 5. Birdie
>3. Rose
Birdie is going to ram low forward all day.. uhm... .. ... ok.
Sure, he's got a better jump then everyone else but was A2 really a big
air-parade?
Charlie is not exactly horrible, good range on his CC, decent
damage at lv1, passable ACs and shitty supers (as if supers were needed).
But ahead of Rose and Ken? There isn't much Charles does better than
Rose, and Ken is just rediculous, but you knew that. Well if they didn't
justify it then so be it.
Adon I wouldn't dismiss completely, but I always felt that he
opened himself up for CCs too often when he went offensive. I'd love to
see what they can do with him that puts him in #4.
And where's Ryu, for that matter?
>SFA3.
>1. Akuma (V ism) 4. Ryu (V ism)
>2. Dhalsim (Z ism) 5. Gen (Z ism)
>3. Sakura (V ism)
So where's V Sodom?
>SF3
Ibuki has *far* too easy a time setting up her infinites with the hashin
sho, easily #1. Elena is worse than everyone in every matchup. Maybe
Alex could be #10 in a point system, but I'd doubt it.
>SF3:2i
Heh. Reasonably accurate (Yang should be higher), except the
bottom 4. Elena has too many die buttons to be anything but #13. Urien,
unless they have managed to find something like a strong or forward
(and preferably a jab or short) that'll set up his big combo, shouldn't be
above Alex or Hugo.
Otherwise it's about right, but unfortunately the game sucks so hard
that no one should be allowed to care..
>Oh yeah, at the end of the exibition match, Earth Sodom and ONuki
>played each other. It was a VERY close game, going to the last round
>of the last game. Very fun to watch. Of course, I was rooting for the
>Mizer all the way :)
Who took it?
>Old Ryu and his Hadouken missile silo. Hadouuuken! Hadouuuken! Hadouuken!
LOL
<snip remainder of ST stuff>
Now I *know* I shouldn't have thrown out the "study in Kyoto"
handout from 2 years ago. Instead of getting to see an awesome Sodomizer
in action I get more waves of (poorly played) Ryu.
--
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Beef <mcar...@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
>Do you know why they're on the top? Are there any special techniques,
>strategies or overwhelming moves to these two that I don't know about? I
>would LOVE a response.
Necro can infinite pretty easily, while Oro has some nasty fatal
combos. I think your opponent had to jump for those Necro infinites,
though, which put him lower in my rankings. (they were just easy to
execute once they were in)
It may also depend on whether or not you go by points (Vega beat
Zangief 9-1 in ... for example) or by win draw loss totals (Guile has an
advantage over everyone in every matchup, so he's automatically #1 - for
example).
In 2i these characters didn't have infinites/fatals, AFAIK (Ibuki
kept her (link) infinite).
--
Jack Lin a.k.a Zangief104
On Tue, 1 Dec 1998 j...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> SF2:WW
> 1. Guile 5. Blanka
> 2. Dhalsim 6. Zangief
> 3. Chun Li 7. Ryu and Ken
> 4. E Honda
>
> I agreed with him about 1 and 2. As for the rest, in the words of
> Ronald Reagan, "I'm afraid I don't recall that information".
Strongly agree!
> SF2:CE
> 1. Bison 4. Dhalsim
> 2. Sagat 5. Vega
> 3. Guile
Can't say anything because I was still a scrub when CE came out, but
sounds reasonable.
> SF2:HF
> 1. Ryu 4. Blanka
> 2. Sagat 5. Zangief
> 3. Ken
So where is Bison and Vega?
> Super
> 1. Sagat 4. Ryu
> 2. T Hawk 5. Chun Li
> 3. Dhalsim
Don't know, hate this game. Slow as hell. And this game is between two
"turbo" games.
> ST (no Akuma, no super chars)
> 1. Dee Jay
> This is all they wrote (!). I asked them why do they think DJ is so
> good. At this point, DJ (the guy) said he played DJ in ST. I told him
> I would be happy to play him, as I thought Vega beat DJ 9-1.
> I gave him my ST rankings, both including and excluding super chars:
Actually I sorta remember Gamest ranking chart on ST. When ST came out I
was still in Taiwan so I haven't played any ST monsters in US (except
Seth)
1. DJ
Taiwanese used DJ all the time. Gamest had many pages of DJ's cross-up
coverage....forgot which issue, hey i was 14 then. The cover was
Morrigan, that's all i remembered
2-5
Chun Li, E.Honda, Dhalsim, and Vega
Honda and Vega were everywhere in Taiwan arcade. Strategies were rather
similar to US Honda and Vega players. Taiwan Dhalsim tended to
use teleport when getting up, didn't see any US players teleport in
tourney video tapes. They also charged super meter with Short Yoga Blast
Chun Li was nasty but people tended not to use her unless there was
someone with 20+ game winning streak by T.Hawk
14. T.Hawk
15. Ken
No doubt!
16. Zangief
Seems Gamest didn't like 360 characters. These two didn't really suck in
ST. Z only mismatched Dhalsim and Vega. T.Hawk only chocked against
Chun.
Oh how could Japanese people put Bison and Barlog middle tier? Ranking
was ranking there were tons of nasty Barlog and Bison players anyway.
> SFA
> 1. Guy 4. Rose
> 2. Akuma 5. Ken
> 3. Ryu
>
> I gave him the US rankings
> 1. Ken 4. Ryu
> 2. Guy 5. Rose
> 3. Akuma
Guy was the best character in A1, handsdown
> SFA2
> 1. Chun Li 4. Adon
> 2. Charlie 5. Birdie
> 3. Rose
Adon is definitely dangerous, he is just not popular. Seth mentioned Adon
had one of the most insane CC in this game. Correct, but Rolento can do
more with his High Jump CC, 90% I remember. and we didn't even bring
Rose's 100% Soul Spark CC out....
Charlie's low RK has good range and Lv. 1 Somersault CC is good.
Ken was supposed to be in top tier (Kick AC and Shinryuken). Sagat
shouldn't be bad, at least Valle played him to win B3. And where is
Rolento and his Strong punch+High jump CC power?
I don't know why Birdie was ranked so high but I felt comfortable while
using Birdie in A2. He's better than Sodom and Z IMO.
> Hm. I was very suprised at these rankings. I asked why Charlie was so
> high, and where was Ken?? Birdie I also found hard to believe. They
> didn't give much justification for charlie, except that there were a
> bunch of them in every tourney. Birdie they said was ranked so high
> because of his low forward and his quick jump. I actually agree that
> Adon could be really good. I've always thought he could be a real
> terror in the right hands. I've also seem some US Adons that have
> given me trouble.
> I gave them the US rankings:
> 1. Ryu, Ken, Chun Li, Rose
> 5. Zangief, Sakura, Rolento
> 8. Everyone else
> last 2. Dan, Gen
> 99. Birdie
>
> They were supsicious about Sakura's ranking, and outright disbelieved
> Zangief. I tried to explain about his 1/2 screen 50% CC, but they
> still didn't believe. Since I can't play zangief, I couldn't show
> them. I explained about sakura's annoying cross up too.
>
> SFA3.
> 1. Akuma (V ism) 4. Ryu (V ism)
> 2. Dhalsim (Z ism) 5. Gen (Z ism)
> 3. Sakura (V ism)
Did they put V-Akuma #1 because Daigo won with him? Then what about
Daigo's Guy shit? Or Japanese players already found out how to encounter
Guy's crazy juggling?
Adon, where is V-Adon? and X-Adon? These two Adons have dangerous
potential like A2 Adon.
No-ism Blanka is actually annoying as hell, but is No-ism eligible to be
"ranked"? People never rank No-ism characters.
> However, in walked this random guy and his girlfriend. He comes in,
> and picks Blanka. New Blanka. I'm not too worried, but he starts off
> game 1 by jumping over a FB, jump fierce, stand strong, ball -> dizzy,
> repeat, no life. I die. He also wins round 2 somehow. Arg, I can't
> believe I ended my win streak by losing to Blanka. But then I see
> everyone else is losing to this guy too! What the heck? I start to pay
> attention, and this guy is good... REALLY good. In fact, he's awesome!
>
> Blanka's crossover forward is perhaps the widest crossover in the
> game! It crosses up like KKK Gen's jump forward! This guy is doing
> combos like crossover forward, low forw, stand strong, stand strong,
> or cr forw, low forw, stand strong, ball! Against Kuni, he does a
> Blankaball which hits, *immediately* another blankaball going the
> other way, into crossunder electricity!! Wow.
Like what people said, anyone can win a tourney. The thing is u need more
effort with weak characters. This Blanka dude really shows effort in ST
and shows us y ST is the best SF ever.
BTW has anyone won a tourney with Cammy? Never seen anyone use her in any
tourney....
> Well, Japan is the king of A3 and ST :)
No kidding. What about their Tekken skill? Valle kicks ass in Tekken
what about Daigo? I don't even wanna metion they are the king of KOF
since there are not even a lot of KOF availble in US....
j...@my-dejanews.com
Ultima <jas...@rit.edu> wrote:
> > SF2:HF
> > 1. Ryu 4. Blanka
> > 2. Sagat 5. Zangief
> > 3. Ken
>
> > I wasn't too sure about Zangiefs high rating, but I was glad to see
> > someone else agree with me about Blanka's power in HF. Read later on for
more about Blanka power...
>
> Huh. I question Ken being that high. Where's Dhalsim? Where's Guile?
Guile was definitely good in HF, but Dhalsim was really bad. Perhaps his 2nd
worst version (worst being a2).
> Blanka can be dangerous, though I thought that was only my opinion.
> Hell, I thought he was at his all time best in HF.
Blanka was a real terror, I thought. This ST guy was the first time I'd seen a
truly terrifying Blanka since HF. HF Blanka was really what Blanka was all
about. Truly scary. His fast jump, overpowering low fierce, safe ball. He ball
was the perfect anti-tick move and he had one of the best throw ranges in the
game.
> Why A-Dhalsim over X-Dhalsim? The rest I guess I don't question, though
> I'd like to know where previous (and for many of us, current) killer
> characters like Rolento, X-Dhalsim, A-Ryu, V-Vega and X-Rose are
> ranked...
Is X Rose a killer in the US? She is not at all dominant here. Without her AC
she seems to have lost most of her bite. A ryu is also only so-so. Akuma seems
much better than ryu or ken (dive kick).
> HUH. Y/Y 5th??? WoW! That goes against nearly everything everyone says
> here! And Alex DEAD LAST??? WTF??? I know he dies to certain chaarcters,
> but dead last? I mean, surely he's better than *Elena*??? Christ..! O_O
Sorry, I really know nothing about the sf3 series. I despise those games.
> Alrighty then. Now who was it that said that Vega beats Zangief 10-0
> because of this tactic?
Me.
> Query though Julien: What about low strong? I thoughy Vega could keep Z
> out with just endless low strongs, and flip kick if he jumped? Did you
> try this at all, or is there already a well-known means to beat this?
I was so suprised that it was working that I kept on trying the dives. The
low strong flick kick stuff works great, but there is a teensy chance zangief
can jump splash you at the time you claw, and he gets in. The dives were (I
thought) a completely failsafe algorithm for winning.
> One last thing: You said "Umehara (Daigo) who went to the US is NOT the
> a2 champ. ONuki is. He won A2 and SF3:2i" - Did you mean A3? And if so,
> does this reflect even worse upon the US players and the US state of SF?
> o_O
Onuki is the A2 and SF3:2i champ. He also took 2nd place at SFA3. Umehara is
1st in SFA3, and a consistently high placer in other games (AFAIK). ONuki is
the chun li player you can see in the gamest sfa2 tourney tape. He was
clearly a class above everyone else in that tourney, athough it seems Umehara
caught up to his level in A3.
It would be fair to say that ONuki is the Alex Valle of Japan (best overall
ass kicker).
-Julien
--
Da Mizer
Chocobo
> In article <3664B4F5...@rit.edu>,
> Ultima <jas...@rit.edu> wrote:
>
> > > SF2:HF
> > > 1. Ryu 4. Blanka
> > > 2. Sagat 5. Zangief
> > > 3. Ken
> >
> > > I wasn't too sure about Zangiefs high rating, but I was glad to see
> > > someone else agree with me about Blanka's power in HF. Read later on for
> more about Blanka power...
> >
> > Huh. I question Ken being that high. Where's Dhalsim? Where's Guile?
>
> Guile was definitely good in HF, but Dhalsim was really bad. Perhaps his 2nd
> worst version (worst being a2).
Guile belongs on that list for HF... he's the same old powerful Guile as always.
Zangief... I just don't see it. But what do I know...
> > Blanka can be dangerous, though I thought that was only my opinion.
> > Hell, I thought he was at his all time best in HF.
>
> Blanka was a real terror, I thought. This ST guy was the first time I'd seen a
> truly terrifying Blanka since HF. HF Blanka was really what Blanka was all
> about. Truly scary.
I wonder how many other ST players there are, who can play other characters like
that.
> > Why A-Dhalsim over X-Dhalsim? The rest I guess I don't question, though
> > I'd like to know where previous (and for many of us, current) killer
> > characters like Rolento, X-Dhalsim, A-Ryu, V-Vega and X-Rose are
> > ranked...
>
> Is X Rose a killer in the US? She is not at all dominant here. Without her AC
> she seems to have lost most of her bite.
hah... only here on the east coast, where no one has the skill to do anything
about basic pokes and no one has the sense to avoid her SC. She's strong I guess,
but nothing really special.
> A ryu is also only so-so. Akuma seems
> much better than ryu or ken (dive kick).
There really seems to be no reason to use A-Ryu anymore, just like A-Ken.
> > One last thing: You said "Umehara (Daigo) who went to the US is NOT the
> > a2 champ. ONuki is. He won A2 and SF3:2i" - Did you mean A3? And if so,
> > does this reflect even worse upon the US players and the US state of SF?
> > o_O
>
> Onuki is the A2 and SF3:2i champ. He also took 2nd place at SFA3. Umehara is
> 1st in SFA3, and a consistently high placer in other games (AFAIK). ONuki is
> the chun li player you can see in the gamest sfa2 tourney tape. He was
> clearly a class above everyone else in that tourney, athough it seems Umehara
> caught up to his level in A3.
>
> It would be fair to say that ONuki is the Alex Valle of Japan (best overall
> ass kicker).
After hearing so much about Daigo, I can't being to imagine how this Onuki must
play. Why in the world did it take so long for the US players to find out that
Japan is where the real players are?
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
<A2>
Biggest CCs go to Rose (absorb fb glitch*) and Zangief. On our machine
Zangief's Level ONE CC does somewhere in the 80% range, but our damage is
helluva up there. Think of them like Ken CCs that do an extra 33% (on the
CC, not the bar), and Ken's CCs already do insane amounts of damage.
If the Japanese don't Valle CC, we might have a game we could beat them
at. =)
--
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Jack Lin a.k.a Zangief104 <jac...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>On Tue, 1 Dec 1998 j...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> I gave him the US rankings
>> 1. Ken 4. Ryu
>> 2. Guy 5. Rose
>> 3. Akuma
>Guy was the best character in A1, handsdown
Guy would kill you if you didn't block a low short.
Ken could lock you if you DID block the low short.
>> SFA2
>Adon is definitely dangerous, he is just not popular. Seth mentioned Adon
>had one of the most insane CC in this game. Correct, but Rolento can do
>more with his High Jump CC, 90% I remember. and we didn't even bring
>Rose's 100% Soul Spark CC out....
Pretty sure Gief's does more than Rolentos (I've gotten 99% on a
low damage machine).
>Ken was supposed to be in top tier (Kick AC and Shinryuken). Sagat
>shouldn't be bad, at least Valle played him to win B3. And where is
>Rolento and his Strong punch+High jump CC power?
Forget the Shinryuken, except as a way to snuff CCs. Ken was all
about ACing for chunks and CCing for more.
>I don't know why Birdie was ranked so high but I felt comfortable while
>using Birdie in A2. He's better than Sodom and Z IMO.
Zangief is stronger, IIRC, and has a much much much much better
CC. Sodom is weaker (less dam. on moves) but also has a better CC, I
think. Sodom's rushes are much better than birdies. Gief also has a
better 360, and somewhat better priority in general.
--
LVJeff
>
> > SF3
> > 1. Necro 5. Yun/Yang 10. Alex
> > 2. Oro 7. Ken
> > 3. Ibuki 8. Ryu
> > 4. Sean 9. Elena
> >
> > I don't know jack about SF3, so I didn't comment.
>
> HUH. Y/Y 5th??? WoW! That goes against nearly everything everyone says
> here! And Alex DEAD LAST??? WTF??? I know he dies to certain chaarcters,
> but dead last? I mean, surely he's better than *Elena*??? Christ..! O_O
>
> > SF3:2i
> > 1. Akuma 8. Ryu
> > 2. Ibuki 9. Oro
> > 3. Yun 10. Elena
> > 4. Sean 11. Urien
> > 5. Yang 12. Alex
> > 6. Necro 13. Hugo
> > 7. Ken
>
> > Again, I know nothing about SF3:2i, so I didn't comment much. [snip]
>
> Hah. No real argument here except (though I would have place Ibuki no.1
> and Akuma no.2) for the last 5. Or rather their order. I still can't
> believe that Alex is lower than Elena, and even lower than Urien???
> BUllshit, says I. Oro I really don't know about, since I've never seen
> anybody use him.
My question is: Where did DUDLEY go? What, Dudley doesn't exist in Japan??
--LVJeff
--
==========================___________________________________ ... . . .
| from LVJeff | Kerim Bey: "But I am already in your debt."
| ale...@ucla.edu | James Bond: "How can a friend be in debt?"
========================== - From Russia with Love
Milo D. Cooper
>> j...@my-dejanews.com writes:
>>
>> [...]
>> SFA2
>> 1. Chun Li 4. Adon
>> 2. Charlie 5. Birdie
>> 3. Rose
>>
>> Hm. I was very suprised at these rankings. I asked why Charlie was so
>> high, and where was Ken?? Birdie I also found hard to believe. They
>> didn't give much justification for charlie, except that there were a
>> bunch of them in every tourney. Birdie they said was ranked so high
>> because of his low forward and his quick jump. I actually agree that
>> Adon could be really good. I've always thought he could be a real
>> terror in the right hands. I've also seem some US Adons that have
>> given me trouble.
>
> Didn't Charlie have a bufferable cr. forward on japanese versions?
> That would help him a LOT, although I don't know about #2. I heard
> somewhere that japanese players didn't use Valle CCs, which is consistent
> with the tournament footage I've seen, although that was fairly early
> stuff. It would also make a little more sense out of these rankings,
> although I too am baffled by Birdie. Have to see it to believe it.
> Adon is possible. Given the general extremely aggressive style of
> japanese SF, and Adon's HUGE CCs (I think they were the MOST damaging
> in the game, weren't they?), it's possible. The rest of Adon's game
> seems a little too thin though- who knows.
> Also, if you don't AC a lot, Ken is worse, although it's still
> hard to imagine him and Ryu totally out of the top 5.
I have my doubts that Adon is *that* good in Alpha 2 -- not in the
American version, anyway. Whwn I played that game, I had to fight match
after match against RyuKen, who destroy Adon (especially Ken, who has
the best AC in the game -- that Ryu and Ken aren't two of the top three
in the above ranking is itself mysterious). Adon has trouble against
anyone who turtles, thanks to the recovery on his moves, and a sometimes
his opponent can simply sac punish his jaguar tooth (eg. Zangief sac
into SPD). Adon *is* very good vs. a lot of characters, but thanks to
RyuKen, I don't see him being top five. And Birdie in fifth simply for
a quick jump and a low kick, when the rest of his repertory is trash? I
won't believe it until I see it.
>> I gave them the US rankings:
>> 1. Ryu, Ken, Chun Li, Rose
>> 5. Zangief, Sakura, Rolento
>> 8. Everyone else
>> last 2. Dan, Gen
>> 99. Birdie
You tell 'em, Julien. Birdie fifth place, my black ass.
--
/|__Milo D. Cooper__________________EverQuest character modeler__|\
\| http://www.milos-chalkboard.net/ http://www.everquest.com/ |/
che...@hotmail.com
Beef <mcar...@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
> Do you know why they're on the top? Are there any special techniques,
> strategies or overwhelming moves to these two that I don't know about? I
> would LOVE a response.
Dunno much about necro, as for Oro, just his combo after leap attack
(universal overhead for your american people) already placed him too high,
imagine what will you block once you got knocked down by the damn 3-hit slam?
can't roll away too...it is just a guessing game that way.
For my knowledge, the SF3 ranking was pretty much SAME as the SF3 all-japan
tier. the #1 was Necro, then Oro, and then Ibuki..I knew this coz My friend
was that #3 ibuki player.
Chetammmmmm
Ultima
>
> j...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > In article <3664B4F5...@rit.edu>,
> > Ultima <jas...@rit.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > > 1. Ryu 4. Blanka
> > > > 2. Sagat 5. Zangief
> > > > 3. Ken
> > >
> > > > I wasn't too sure about Zangiefs high rating, but I was glad to see
> > > > someone else agree with me about Blanka's power in HF. Read later on for
> > more about Blanka power...
> > > Huh. I question Ken being that high. Where's Dhalsim? Where's Guile?
> > Guile was definitely good in HF, but Dhalsim was really bad. Perhaps his 2nd worst version (worst being a2).
Wha..? Dhalsim at his second worst??? Why? What was different between HF
Dhalsim and CE Dhalsim? Cause I've seen a truly terrifying Dhalsim in
HF, whom I couldn't get in on at *all*. I mainly played Vega and Bison
in HF, and generally got my ass washed. I should have tried Blanka, but
I didn't think about it. :(
> Guile belongs on that list for HF... he's the same old powerful Guile as always. Zangief... I just don't see it. But what do I know...
Relatively, Zangief was at his best in HF. That KKK lariet was just so
sweet. I still don't know why Capcom got rid of it. It's not as if Z was
overpowered or anything... >:(
> > > Blanka can be dangerous, though I thought that was only my opinion. Hell, I thought he was at his all time best in HF.
> > Blanka was a real terror, I thought. This ST guy was the first time I'd seen a truly terrifying Blanka since HF. HF Blanka was really what Blanka was all about. Truly scary.
*nods head in agreement*
> I wonder how many other ST players there are, who can play other characters like that.
> > > Why A-Dhalsim over X-Dhalsim? The rest I guess I don't question, though I'd like to know where previous (and for many of us, current) killer characters like Rolento, X-Dhalsim, A-Ryu, V-Vega and X-Rose are
> > > ranked...
> > Is X Rose a killer in the US? She is not at all dominant here. Without her AC she seems to have lost most of her bite.
>
> hah... only here on the east coast, where no one has the skill to do anything about basic pokes and no one has the sense to avoid her SC.
Go to hell Chocobo. Anyway,the only reason I mentioned X-Rose was
because of a while back she started creeping into the upper rankings. Or
at least, according to Jeff Schafer. I guess that should have been my
first clue. -_- She was only mentioned as being "really good", so I
guess I shouldn't have listed her under the title of "killer
chaarcters".
> She's strong I guess, but nothing really special.
Yeah. That's my opinion of her anyway. It depends on who's playing her,
but I don't think she's quite I the class of Dhalsim, Ryu and the
others..
> > A ryu is also only so-so. Akuma seems
> > much better than ryu or ken (dive kick).
> There really seems to be no reason to use A-Ryu anymore, just like A-Ken.
Guess not. I just found it strange that one week A-Ryu is considered
top-tier, then the next week without any warning all the talk is about
V-Ryu. Oh well...
> > > One last thing: You said "Umehara (Daigo) who went to the US is NOT the a2 champ. ONuki is. He won A2 and SF3:2i" - Did you mean A3? And if so, does this reflect even worse upon the US players and the US state of SF? o_O
> > Onuki is the A2 and SF3:2i champ. He also took 2nd place at SFA3. Umehara is 1st in SFA3, and a consistently high placer in other games (AFAIK). ONuki is the chun li player you can see in the gamest sfa2 tourney tape. He was clearly a class above everyone else in that tourney, athough it seems Umehara caught up to his level in A3.
As I see. I didn't hear about how Daigo was supposedly the A2 champ, so
I thought it was a mistake. :)
> > It would be fair to say that ONuki is the Alex Valle of Japan (best overall ass kicker).
So it would seem. Wow... o_O
> After hearing so much about Daigo, I can't being to imagine how this Onuki must play.
In terms of absolutes, they're probably comparable to Alex Valle and
John Choi - who is more likely to kick your ass, and does it really
matter? :p
> Why in the world did it take so long for the US players to find out that Japan is where the real players are?
We never had comprehensive SF reports from Japan nor a US vs. Japan
tournament before?
BTW, great post Julien. :)
LVJeff
>
> Do you know why they're on the top? Are there any special techniques,
> strategies or overwhelming moves to these two that I don't know about? I
> would LOVE a response.
Wouldn't Oro be considered that high because of his cheap Tengu Stone? A
scrub with Tengu Stone could wipe out even some of the best players...
Milo D. Cooper
>> the best fighting game ever. Any character, and I mean ANY character can win
>> a tournament.
>
(Nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod) X (infinity).
--
/|__Milo D. Cooper________________EverQuest character modeler__|\
\| http://www.milos-chalkboard.net http://www.everquest.com |/
Tom Cannon
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac <spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>In article <3665CBA5...@ucla.edu.nospam>,
>LVJeff <ale...@ucla.edu.nospam> wrote:
>>Beef wrote:
>>>
>>> Do you know why they're on the top? Are there any special techniques,
>>> strategies or overwhelming moves to these two that I don't know about? I
>>> would LOVE a response.
>>
>> Wouldn't Oro be considered that high because of his cheap Tengu Stone? A
>>scrub with Tengu Stone could wipe out even some of the best players...
>
>charge, and does as much damage (ie, full). And a scrub Oro would still
>have to launch you in the corner to get the Tengu crap in full effect,
>IIRC, so no, he won't win. It's the GOOD Oros you have to worry about.
>
There's no contest. Tengu stone is EASILY the best super in the game (SF3,
not 2i). No, you didn't need to be in the corner for the full tengu
effect. Repeated stand shorts mixed in with low forwards and throw attempts
were quite brutal enough, even in the middle of the screen. Let's not even
mention that Oro can set up a 100% combo off his standing strong launcher
using the stone.
[snip]
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
j...@my-dejanews.com
> After hearing so much about Daigo, I can't being to imagine how this Onuki
must
> play. Why in the world did it take so long for the US players to find out that
> Japan is where the real players are?
I think it was just that until this year, the US and Japan had had no SF
contact at all. It's not that everyone was saying "Those Japanese must suck",
it's that no one knew at all what their level of play was. We had some gamest
SF tapes to go by, but players never look as good on tape as they do live,
and it's always easy to watch a tape and say "oh, I can beat that guy" (rf:
Will Smith's 'I can beat Mike Tyson' rap). This year, two things happened: 1)
A US player who has had extensive contact with other US players (me) is in
Japan and has played a lot of SF 2) More importantly, the best Japanese
player went to the US and played the best US players.
Anyways, I don't want this group to start thinking the US sucks and is
irrevocably stuck behind Japan. Alex Valle is an amazing player by any
standard, he certainly held his own vs Umehara. Good players can be found all
over the world. Anyone who has seen Marwan play can attest to this. The
average US scrub will suck as much as the average Japanese scrub. The top
tier US players will do well and get long win streaks in arcades in Japan.
The reverse is also true. It's just that there are a lot more Japanese
players than the rest of the players in the world.
-Julien
--
Da Mizer
j...@my-dejanews.com
> vary pretty wildly- much more than CCs ever seemed to, even in extreme
> situations (like you have no life when performing the CC)...
>
> >Round 2 wasn't quite as spectacular, but I lost. Kuni later points out
> >you can countermash during the VC to reduce damage by up to 40%.
>
> ?? Is there any method to this, or is it a pure mash? How
> is this supposed to reduce damage (as in, what does it do that makes
> you get hit/hurt less?)?
Fucking Netscape crashed after I replied to this entire article. Dammit. I
hope I have the energy to retype it all :)
Ok, I think the main reason I took so much is that I didn't countermash at
all. The best way to countermash is the real life Hundred-Hand-Slap, where
you roll your hand across all 6 buttons (the way to get 55% off of cyclops'
super in XSF). Your character icon will flash red if you mash successfully. A
good countermasher's character should be constantly flickering red. Onuki was
doing 50% VC's to good countermashers. Since I did nothing, I got eaten. As a
side note, people have posted replies asking why the VC doesn't end after 2
hits in the air. I don't know.. all the VC's I have seen just keep on
juggling no matter what the opponent does. Sakura can do her SFA2-like
repeated fierce DP's, for example, and then finish with jump fierce pogo x 3
and then air throw. Crazy damage. Part of it also may have been that
rolento's damage resistance is low.
> >SF2:HF
> >1. Ryu 4. Blanka
> >2. Sagat 5. Zangief
> >3. Ken
>
> >I wasn't too sure about Zangiefs high rating, but I was glad to see
> >someone else agree with me about Blanka's power in HF. Read later on for
> >more about Blanka power...
>
> I think Blanka is either #2 or 3. Sagat's uppercut bug could be
> a big annoying factor if you really worked it, but Ryu was a monster. I'd
I thought you posted a year back or so that you thought Blanka wasn't that
good in HF. Anyways, yeah, he had what it took to win. The low fierce traded
or hit FB's, this throw left him in a perfect position, and his Sentinel-like
jump straight up RH in the corner gave even the mighty Sagat problems (it
would hit his TU!). I think Blanka also beat guile. Jump forw over a SB
(blocked) into walk up bite was impossible I think for guile to get out of.
> >We played around taking turns, but I managed to always beat DJ's DJ
> >with Vega. I also got a nice win streak with Old Ryu and his Hadouken
> >missile silo. Hadouuuken! Hadouuuken! Hadouuken! Hadouuuken! Bruce
> >told me I was "Dai Sugoi" with ryu, which means "really good".
>
> Well, if they think that, we know they can't be *that* good :)
LOL. Yeah, I embarrassed myself enough at the Vegas travesty.
> [Blanka amazingness deleted]
You mention in another post that at Vegas, everyone sucked. This is true
(except for Jumpsuit Jesse). This Blanka player was just 100% on top of his
game. He never missed a move or whiffed a normal out of range. He just played
so pefectly.
> Well, if you want to stick it to Blanka, I think the way to go
> is to turtle the hell out of him. It's really a bitch, since Blanka's
> only safe offense is a little fake in general, and usually only
> situationally effective.
> I had an old japanese ST tournament tape with a bunch of awesome
> Blanka stuff- I do think Blanka beats a fair number of characters, but
> overall can't convert. Still have to see it to believe it.
His jump forward had a lot to do with it. I've never seen anything like it
except KKK Gen. He could jump repeated jump forward crossup on Balrog, and I
could not move. I need to play him again to be sure, but I felt like in HF
where balrog was just stuck by Blanka's crossover up ball. I think this may
be the only crossover in the game that can repeatedly crossover Balrog (not
counting air HK'S). Even the 'best' crossups in the game like honda's splash
only work on balrog while he is knocked down. Blankas forward is so wide that
it will still hit Balrog even when he goes into "lean back" block stance the
other way, which as we all knock make him almost impossible to hit.
> Indeed, ST wonders never cease. Now, after 5, 6? years, we know.
> Of course, Vega still mashes Gief, but that makes it a hell of a lot closer.
> In addition to the flip kick, try st.RH to take out almost all of Gief's
> jumpins.
Yah, I still think Vega beats Gief, but I guess my foolproof method is gone :(
> As always, great post Julien...
Thanks! What happened to your VGO Ken flames? I was laughing so hard last year
that people in my lab were giving me "Are you on crack?" looks. (What are you
going to do, form a giant Scrub Voltron?)
> Seth Killian
-Julien Beasley
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
LVJeff <ale...@ucla.edu.nospam> wrote:
>Beef wrote:
>>
>> Do you know why they're on the top? Are there any special techniques,
>> strategies or overwhelming moves to these two that I don't know about? I
>> would LOVE a response.
>
> Wouldn't Oro be considered that high because of his cheap Tengu Stone? A
>scrub with Tengu Stone could wipe out even some of the best players...
No, Oro should be using Snotballs because the super is easier to
charge, and does as much damage (ie, full). And a scrub Oro would still
have to launch you in the corner to get the Tengu crap in full effect,
IIRC, so no, he won't win. It's the GOOD Oros you have to worry about.
It didn't matter that much, really, because Ibuki and Necro had
infinites that generated meter rather than consumed it, and they were
arguably easier to set up than either fatal combo for Oro. Ibuki's juggle
infinite was just too damned easy to get off the Hashin Sho.
--
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Tom Cannon <web...@best.com> wrote:
>In article <F3D61...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>Shaun Patrick Mcisaac <spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>charge, and does as much damage (ie, full). And a scrub Oro would still
>>have to launch you in the corner to get the Tengu crap in full effect,
>>IIRC, so no, he won't win. It's the GOOD Oros you have to worry about.
>There's no contest. Tengu stone is EASILY the best super in the game (SF3,
>not 2i). No, you didn't need to be in the corner for the full tengu
>effect. Repeated stand shorts mixed in with low forwards and throw attempts
>were quite brutal enough, even in the middle of the screen. Let's not even
>mention that Oro can set up a 100% combo off his standing strong launcher
>using the stone.
The best super in the game is the Hashin Sho, hands down. Block a
sweep, super into infinite.
The same launcher sets up a 100% damage combo for the snotballs as
well, thank you. The problem with the stone is that it doesn't charge as
fast and it's too easy to get away from Oro (which weakens it, when on a
timer), and you only get one. Shorts and forwards into throws, is just
too weak, especially when you can do more or less the same garbage with
the dama (but for slightly less time per ball).
--
Tom Cannon
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac <spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>In article <745g99$dok$1...@shell16.ba.best.com>,
>Tom Cannon <web...@best.com> wrote:
>>In article <F3D61...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>>Shaun Patrick Mcisaac <spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>> No, Oro should be using Snotballs because the super is easier to
>>>charge, and does as much damage (ie, full). And a scrub Oro would still
>>>have to launch you in the corner to get the Tengu crap in full effect,
>>>IIRC, so no, he won't win. It's the GOOD Oros you have to worry about.
>
>>There's no contest. Tengu stone is EASILY the best super in the game (SF3,
>>not 2i). No, you didn't need to be in the corner for the full tengu
>>effect. Repeated stand shorts mixed in with low forwards and throw attempts
>>were quite brutal enough, even in the middle of the screen. Let's not even
>>mention that Oro can set up a 100% combo off his standing strong launcher
>>using the stone.
>
> The best super in the game is the Hashin Sho, hands down. Block a
>sweep, super into infinite.
>
Well, if you want to say that the infinite off of a Hashin sho is better
than a Tengu Stone, I'll agree. I would argue that the infinite is a
property of Ibuki's stand RH, and not the hashin sho, which is why I
say that the Stone is the most effective *super*.
> The same launcher sets up a 100% damage combo for the snotballs as
>well, thank you. The problem with the stone is that it doesn't charge as
>fast and it's too easy to get away from Oro (which weakens it, when on a
>timer), and you only get one. Shorts and forwards into throws, is just
>too weak, especially when you can do more or less the same garbage with
>the dama (but for slightly less time per ball).
No. Really you can't. For one, you can't take off 20% block damage with
snot balls. You can't set up unblockable get up games after a knockdown
with the snot ball. Also, any really big-damage combo is going to involve
more than 1 ball, which will take just as long to charge as the stone.
You have to see it happen to appreciate how ridiculous the stone is. In the
SJG tournament I was doing 40% - 70% off of nearly every Tengu stone -
against experienced players. Amir, a 15 year old "kid", *won* the UCLA SF3
tournament, beating Alex Valle and lots of other great players like James
Chen using, guess what, Tengu Stone. Charging meter isn't a problem either.
Just repeatedly jump back with the chicken-scratch move. Tengu Stone was
butchered in 2i, and with good reason. The super wasn't even remotely fair.
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
seth james killian
>> ?? Is there any method to this, or is it a pure mash? How
>> is this supposed to reduce damage (as in, what does it do that makes
>> you get hit/hurt less?)?
>Fucking Netscape crashed after I replied to this entire article. Dammit. I
>hope I have the energy to retype it all :)
Heh. Same thing just happened to me. Maybe this thread is cursed.
>good countermasher's character should be constantly flickering red. Onuki was
>doing 50% VC's to good countermashers. Since I did nothing, I got eaten. As a
>side note, people have posted replies asking why the VC doesn't end after 2
>hits in the air. I don't know..
Here's something that Derek just mentioned to me, straight from
the japanese IRC Deep Throat- The whiffed moves in VCs aren't there just
to keep up the rhythm- they somehow reset the (highly anamolous, it would
seem) juggle counter. This is why you can't flip out, and may do
something to explain some of the extra high damage. That's how they get
you into the corner "for free", and keep you there.
all the VC's I have seen just keep on
>juggling no matter what the opponent does. Sakura can do her SFA2-like
>repeated fierce DP's, for example, and then finish with jump fierce pogo x 3
>and then air throw. Crazy damage. Part of it also may have been that
>rolento's damage resistance is low.
Try and remember if you could see any whiffing moves in there.
Or better yet, just try it.
>I thought you posted a year back or so that you thought Blanka wasn't that
>good in HF.
>Anyways, yeah, he had what it took to win.
*I* said Blanka sucks in HF? Maybe I flamed someone for saying
that... well, who knows what's likely to come out of my mouth. Check
dejanews if you care. I was primarily a Blanka player in HF (with Ryu
and Vega). I loved him, and he was in his purest form. He could stay
right on your butt, pestering unto victory, every round. And that
stupid upwards ball was the fucking Minnesota spankological protocol
vs half the characters in the game. The circus died horribly in HF.
The low fierce traded
>or hit FB's, this throw left him in a perfect position, and his Sentinel-like
>jump straight up RH in the corner gave even the mighty Sagat problems (it
>would hit his TU!). I think Blanka also beat guile. Jump forw over a SB
>(blocked) into walk up bite was impossible I think for guile to get out of.
Yeah, that tick was unbeatable if you got the spacing over the SB
right. Sweet. Plus you could low forward (clean) under a SB, trade w/
low RH and gain position, etc. A fun match.
>> Well, if they think that, we know they can't be *that* good :)
>LOL. Yeah, I embarrassed myself enough at the Vegas travesty.
I had way too much fun for how terribly I was playing everything.
I felt like a piece of butt meat being roasted on a slowly turning spit
in the desert. I mostly remember an amazing amount of slop, a vague
headachiness, and being thirsty all the time. In the arcades anyway...
(Curse you, Lucky Bob)
>> [Blanka amazingness deleted]
>You mention in another post that at Vegas, everyone sucked. This is true
>(except for Jumpsuit Jesse). This Blanka player was just 100% on top of his
>game. He never missed a move or whiffed a normal out of range. He just played
>so pefectly.
That's a lot of what I love about SF- any SF. Just watching the
game be played masterfully. While I really don't like 2i at all, it was
fun as hell and pretty beautiful to watch Valle and Zavar play each other
in the 2am final. It's just nice to see something done well, I think.
>> I had an old japanese ST tournament tape with a bunch of awesome
>> Blanka stuff- I do think Blanka beats a fair number of characters, but
>> overall can't convert. Still have to see it to believe it.
>His jump forward had a lot to do with it. I've never seen anything like it
>except KKK Gen. He could jump repeated jump forward crossup on Balrog, and I
>could not move. I need to play him again to be sure, but I felt like in HF
>where balrog was just stuck by Blanka's crossover up ball.
I can believe the cross-up would be nasty, but how the hell was
he getting you into position for it all the time? RH tripping? Ball?
Electricity? I just don't see how he was knocking you down from the
right position to be crossing you up all the time.
BTW- some additional thoughts on the semi-oddball japanese
rankings occurred to me- isn't a lot of their ranking based on who
actually wins the big tournaments (as in which character?) If so, that
could explain a lot. I mean, we see new strengths in winning characters,
but just because every tournament might be won by a Cammy, we wouldn't
say she was the best character (would we?). Perhaps this represents
an important difference.
>> As always, great post Julien...
>Thanks! What happened to your VGO Ken flames? I was laughing so hard last year
>that people in my lab were giving me "Are you on crack?" looks. (What are you
>going to do, form a giant Scrub Voltron?)
Too bored/busy. These new scrubs aren't as interesting to me as
the scrubs of yore. I thought maybe someone responsible for some of the
*deep* stupidity associated with "Akuma... misused?" might defend
themselves, but no such lucks. Scrubs are nothing if not spineless.
Still, beware the Scrub Voltron. He cometh.
Seth Killian
Milo D. Cooper
>
> [...]
> Anyways, I don't want this group to start thinking the US sucks and is
> irrevocably stuck behind Japan. Alex Valle is an amazing player by any
> standard, he certainly held his own vs Umehara. Good players can be found all
> over the world. Anyone who has seen Marwan play can attest to this. The
> average US scrub will suck as much as the average Japanese scrub. The top
> tier US players will do well and get long win streaks in arcades in Japan.
> The reverse is also true. It's just that there are a lot more Japanese
> players than the rest of the players in the world.
There would *have* to be, if a chick in Japan got a 25+ game win
streak! Females here at home can't play games for jack sh*t. Julien,
is there some way we can import players from that country? I'll foot
the bill.
LVJeff
>
> You have to see it happen to appreciate how ridiculous the stone is. In the
> SJG tournament I was doing 40% - 70% off of nearly every Tengu stone -
> against experienced players. Amir, a 15 year old "kid", *won* the UCLA SF3
> tournament, beating Alex Valle and lots of other great players like James
> Chen using, guess what, Tengu Stone. Charging meter isn't a problem either.
> Just repeatedly jump back with the chicken-scratch move. Tengu Stone was
> butchered in 2i, and with good reason. The super wasn't even remotely fair.
Heheheheheh! Thanks for supporting my observation, Tom, but let me provide
some corrective information here. I wasn't at the UCLA tournament, but I heard
plenty about it from James. Amir couldn't have 15 at the time because I think
he's 14 now. That means he would have 13 or 12 at the time of the tournament.
And I don't believe he won... I think he got 2nd to Alex. I may need to check
on that one. Anyhow, reportedly he did use Tengu Stone to wipe out every other
possible contender in the tournament, and they were all experienced players.
The feat was so incredible (and frustrating) that, to this day, James refers to
an unlikely contestant placing high as "Amir-ing a tournament" :-)
To his credit, Amir is _very_ good. He has a knack for picking up what's
cheap about a character and exploiting it to full. He has been this way ever
since he was, oh, what, ten? I still remember laughing as I saw this little kid
come in to the arcade and wipe out everybody with Balrog in ST, going on long
win streaks. He has a natural feel for these games, and doesn't utilize careful
strategy as much as reflexes and reactions.
In general, he tries to prove his point about how stupid some characters
are in any fighting game, and with SF3 he proved it with Tengu Stone Oro. They
all knew it was bad, but no one thought anyone would use Oro in a tournament
because they all knew it would've been unfair. Well, Amir didn't care about
that, and promptly took nearly everyone out.
Tom Cannon
LVJeff <ale...@ucla.edu.nospam> wrote:
>Tom Cannon wrote:
>>
>> You have to see it happen to appreciate how ridiculous the stone is. In the
>> SJG tournament I was doing 40% - 70% off of nearly every Tengu stone -
>> against experienced players. Amir, a 15 year old "kid", *won* the UCLA SF3
>> tournament, beating Alex Valle and lots of other great players like James
>> Chen using, guess what, Tengu Stone. Charging meter isn't a problem either.
>> Just repeatedly jump back with the chicken-scratch move. Tengu Stone was
>> butchered in 2i, and with good reason. The super wasn't even remotely fair.
>
> Heheheheheh! Thanks for supporting my observation, Tom, but let me provide
>some corrective information here. I wasn't at the UCLA tournament, but I heard
>plenty about it from James. Amir couldn't have 15 at the time because I think
>he's 14 now. That means he would have 13 or 12 at the time of the tournament.
>And I don't believe he won... I think he got 2nd to Alex. I may need to check
>on that one. Anyhow, reportedly he did use Tengu Stone to wipe out every other
>possible contender in the tournament, and they were all experienced players.
>The feat was so incredible (and frustrating) that, to this day, James refers to
>an unlikely contestant placing high as "Amir-ing a tournament" :-)
>
Ok, thanks for the corrections.
> To his credit, Amir is _very_ good. He has a knack for picking up what's
>cheap about a character and exploiting it to full. He has been this way ever
>since he was, oh, what, ten? I still remember laughing as I saw this little kid
>come in to the arcade and wipe out everybody with Balrog in ST, going on long
>win streaks. He has a natural feel for these games, and doesn't utilize careful
>strategy as much as reflexes and reactions.
>
> In general, he tries to prove his point about how stupid some characters
>are in any fighting game, and with SF3 he proved it with Tengu Stone Oro. They
>all knew it was bad, but no one thought anyone would use Oro in a tournament
>because they all knew it would've been unfair. Well, Amir didn't care about
>that, and promptly took nearly everyone out.
>
Yup. And the most ridiculous thing about the stone is that you know
it's coming, you know exactly what's going to happen to you, and odds are
you're just not going to be able to stop it. =)
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Tom Cannon <web...@best.com> wrote:
>In article <F3EA1...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>Shaun Patrick Mcisaac <spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>Well, if you want to say that the infinite off of a Hashin sho is better
>than a Tengu Stone, I'll agree. I would argue that the infinite is a
>property of Ibuki's stand RH, and not the hashin sho, which is why I
>say that the Stone is the most effective *super*.
And I say the stone is function of Oro's normals. Point? Both
supers facilitate abuse, although the Hashin is indeed more directly
related.
>> The same launcher sets up a 100% damage combo for the snotballs as
>>well, thank you. The problem with the stone is that it doesn't charge as
>>fast and it's too easy to get away from Oro (which weakens it, when on a
>>timer), and you only get one. Shorts and forwards into throws, is just
>>too weak, especially when you can do more or less the same garbage with
>>the dama (but for slightly less time per ball).
>No. Really you can't.
Excuse me, yes you can be juggled for 100% damage, I've watched
the damn combo being performed (on me).
> For one, you can't take off 20% block damage with
>snot balls. You can't set up unblockable get up games after a knockdown
>with the snot ball. Also, any really big-damage combo is going to involve
>more than 1 ball, which will take just as long to charge as the stone.
>You have to see it happen to appreciate how ridiculous the stone is. In the
I've seen both do absolutely rediculous damage. Really, I've
watched them both get abused.
>Chen using, guess what, Tengu Stone. Charging meter isn't a problem either.
>Just repeatedly jump back with the chicken-scratch move. Tengu Stone was
Point? The Dama fatal actually *charges* your meter while you
perform it (you recover most of your investment into the super), and
(re)dizzies as an added bonus (where you can recover more of your meter).
I'm almost positive the amount you had to have, over the first ball, so
that you could continue the combo, was less than one Stone.
>butchered in 2i, and with good reason. The super wasn't even remotely fair.
Oro just wasn't fair, with either super. Dead is dead.
--
Tom Cannon
[snip]
>>> The same launcher sets up a 100% damage combo for the snotballs as
>>>well, thank you. The problem with the stone is that it doesn't charge as
>>>fast and it's too easy to get away from Oro (which weakens it, when on a
>>>timer), and you only get one. Shorts and forwards into throws, is just
>>>too weak, especially when you can do more or less the same garbage with
>>>the dama (but for slightly less time per ball).
>
>>No. Really you can't.
>
> Excuse me, yes you can be juggled for 100% damage, I've watched
>the damn combo being performed (on me).
>
My comment was in response you your remark that you can do "more or less
the same garbage with the dama." You can't trick and trap people with
the dama in the same way as the stone. It's too slow. Thus, the only
really effective use of the dama is after a launcher. I can whip out the
stone at any time and strike some major fear into my opponent.
The 100% combo you're talking about involves 2 damas, which take just
as long to charge as 1 tengu stone, if not longer.
Advantage stone.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Tom Cannon <web...@best.com> wrote:
>In article <F3F1M...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>
>stone at any time and strike some major fear into my opponent.
Major fear, whatever. It's not like there's any blockstun for Oro
to trap you with, they got rid of it in A2.
<ZONK>
--
Tom Cannon
This is a joke, right? In the corner:
stone, stand short, stand short, 1/2 step forward, stand short, low forward.
The sequence puts your opponent in perpetual block stun and takes off about
10 ticks of block damage. furthermore, it can be reapeated with some stand
jabs tossed in for a ridiculous high-low game that is almost impossible to
block correctly (and if you do you're going to eat 20% block damage).
You're best hope against this is guess with a super when Oro is pushed
fairly far away after some shorts. If you guess wrong and Oro blocks, you
lose anywhere from another 20% to 90%, depending on how much of the stone
is left.
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
Terry Cox
> > SF2:HF
> > 1. Ryu 4. Blanka
> > 2. Sagat 5. Zangief
> > 3. Ken
>
> So where is Bison and Vega?
>
... what?! Bison AND Vega both Suh-uh-uh-uh-uh-ucked. Ryu was the best
of course.
Later,
Terry
END
kayin/ka khiong kwok
Terry Cox wrote in message <3681B5...@utm.net>...
>Jack Lin a.k.a Zangief104 wrote:
>
>> > SF2:HF
>> > 1. Ryu 4. Blanka
>> > 2. Sagat 5. Zangief
>> > 3. Ken
>>
>> So where is Bison and Vega?
Bison and Vega are both pretty inadequate in HF, but my point is why's Sagat
there? I can understand Blanka (even that's a longshot), but Sagat wasn't
that great. I would've thought Guile would've took his place. Oh well.
Cheers,
Ka.
"In one room the females are running away from the male
rabbits, in the other they're chasing them, and all the while
the male rabbit is just trying to figure out what's it all about."
- More or less what Siegfried said on "Get Smart".
KEVIN HECKMAN
[ Kayin/ka Khiong Kwok wrote: ]
KKK> Terry Cox wrote in message <3681B5...@utm.net>...
>Jack Lin a.k.a Zangief104 wrote:
>> > SF2:HF
>> > 1. Ryu 4. Blanka
>> > 2. Sagat 5. Zangief
>> > 3. Ken
>> So where is Bison and Vega?
KKK> Sagat there? I can understand Blanka (even that's a longshot), but
KKK> Sagat wasn't that great. I would've thought Guile would've took his
KKK> place. Oh well.
HF Sagat has great recovery after his tiger knee (whiffed tiger knee
into throw can catch a lot of people by surprise if used sparingly).
His fireball release is sped up, making it harder to react to, so you
tend to guess more, and if you guess wrong you eat an uppercut.
Although I am also curious about the lack of Guile in the Jpn top 5...
hmm....
-----
K.S. Heckman (Username: "ronin23". Domain name: "bigfoot.com".)
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