The Perfect SF Game....Capcom, READ!
VGO Ken
<clears throat>
OK, it appears to me, from spending quite a lot of time with this NG, that
the perfect SF game as of yet is ST. While this may be true, what do novice or
intermediate players say? Usually A2. Now, before I get to far into this, I
want to voice that I consider myself between intermediate and expert (in other
words, I've come to understand the greatness of traps, ticks, and the rest of
the stuff experts consider good b/c they can break them, but I myself am still
learning to break).
But what is the "perfect" SF game? None at all, because no SF game appeals
to the whole crowd. ST appeals to experts and old-schoolers because of tweaked
gameplay and precise combos, A2 appeals to the "lower class" because of it's
easy to learn, Custom Combo (hee, hee) interface. So how can you make a
perfect game? I mean, experts and intermediates and novices all like
completely different things. Quite frankly, the three grades of players all
have their own "clique" of SF games they like. And, also, (no offense, but)
they are pretty much stubborn to play eachother's games (example, Beginners
won't play ST, experts won't play Vs. trash [for example, me right there,
insulting Vs. trash]). Intermediates seem to be the only flexible ones. But
how, how, how can we expect Capcom to do good for us when there's so many
varying opinions? Poor Capcom!
That's why I have a few ideas, and perhaps you guys can add to this. I mean,
voice your input and ideas, because the only way Capcom can achieve ST
greatness again is if they appeal to ALL areas in particular......all three
classes. Here's the problems, with my ideas:
*SUPER METER*
How can this be tweaked for everyone's liking.....well, turtles like a bar to
stay charged, that way they can wait for a mistake and pull a Y/Y. Experts
want turtles to be forced to play offense. So how can this be tweaked? Well,
Onaje suggested an idea many would agree with, in that the meter is always
moving down. It's an OK idea, but wouldn't fly, IMO. You need to appeal to
offensive and defensive players....how could this go about? I've thought about
it, and perhaps it can be fixed by simply moving Supers to the back burner.
Hell, when you played ST, you played with other things on your mind....when you
play Vs. trash, you play with one thing on mind: Supers. So perhaps if you
made Supers with different purposes other than mass offense in mind (Healing
was a good step)? Make most Super Arts do mediocre damage unless used
skillfully in a combo....in other words, no one connect 50% Shin-Shoryuken
garbage. However, 720 supers neglected, keep them up, but with not as much
priority, but more than, say, SF3s where you could jump away from them (BOOO!).
Get what I'm saying? This could appeal to everyone. Back on the subject of
*meter* itself now, I was thinking that everyone could have different sized
meter (a la SF3), and plus, the charge would be a lot longer. Also, a la
SS......if you have a MAX bar, or at least a bar over Level 1, then it goes
down when you block or something like that. Ideas?
*PARRIES*
Well, parries have always ranked high on my Bullshitometer, so feel free to
insert opinions here. First off, I say make the only parries air parries.
Why? So intermediates wouldn't be always deuced by expert keep-away traps, and
so beginners would be forced to learn. Of course, they'd be defensive, in
other words, you can't counter after them. Another thing, to avoid frequent
air defense and abuse, it would take away a nice chunk of Super Meter, or
better yet, you have a limited amount of them.
*THROWS & TECHS*
OK, for one, throw damage would be SF3-like, and there would be *no* tech
hits. Varied throw ranges are good, as are command throws doing damn fine
damage. One thing I'm not a large fan of are ticks, but they would be in, to
please tick-lovers, and the only case in which you could tech are in ticks, so
they are escapable. With perfect timing, of course.....which means turtles
will suffer from no techs, but victims of ticks, if they are prepared, can
escape if they have the timing or skill......opinions?
*CHARACTER SELECTION*
First off, I'd personally like to start on a clean slate with SF. Bring in
an entirely new cast. Really. I'm sick of Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li, everyone. A new
character group, with Capcom starting from scratch, would increase chance for
even balance, as long as they don't get out of hand. They now have more
experience, after massively failing with Y/Y and Ibuki in SF3, so they could
probably balance better than ever. The key here is laying off the alcoholic
beverages (a shot of Vodka was probably the reason for Strider's heinous
power). Here's an overview of what I'd like to see.......the total game would
contain about 15 characters. About 4 average characters, balanced in speed and
power, each with great uniquness. 3 grapplers, and I mean *real* grapplers,
not Alex or Birdie. 2 Pseudo-grapplers, such as Alex or Birdie (but of course,
not them themselves). About 3 quick characters (NOT pixies), with balance
being the key here. Do NOT make them powerful as well......they should hit
like sissies, with speed being the key, and unpredictability. Finally about 3
"wierd" characters, such as Dhalsim, Necro, etc. One more note is that no
characters should be "easy" to use, each character requires some practice to
use efficiently. (not like say, shotokans)
*DAMAGE CONTROL*
Capcom should try their damndest to abstain from infinites, or even 100%
damage combos. They send the first version of the game on a road trip, a la
MK4, and test for infinites and such problems. Unlike the lazy asses at
Midway, however, get rid of the infinites by tweaking gameplay, NOT adding
cheese-ass "Max Damage" b/c you're to lazy to reprogram. Anyways, once the
road version is out in arcades for about a month, take what they know and
tweak, tweak, tweak, and release a version w/o infinites and glitches. Now on
to actual *damage*. The game should have long, intense bouts with many moments
rather than a quick bout with one moment, that moment being a Shin-Shoryuken.
In other words, damage should be toned down on ALL moves, not just some. In
other words, previous game-breakers will still be game breakers, it's just that
matches last generally longer.
*COMBO SYSTEM*
<sigh> The first thing is cut down on chains. Send them to a minimal. Some
characters should have maybe a jab>fierce chain, or a ducking short>forward
chain and that's IT. Timing must be precise. As for links, have them back in
by the dozen, still requiring mad skill to do. Of course, to avoid abusing by
experts who are used to ST, they should be somewhat limited, albeit less than
chains. Cancels, two-in-ones, etc, all stay in. Super Cancels? Very limited.
Maybe a Hadouken>S Hadouken one, or a Shoryuken>Shoryureppa one, but no
Shoryuken>ShinSho ones or anything massive like that. Also, damage would be
toned down for these. Juggles? I say hell yeah. Add them in, but not
abusable. Every character should have a way to pop up the victim, and juggling
shouldn't be that easy to do (like chains).
<whew> That's about all I can think of now, guys. My fingers are SOOORE. Any
more topics, add 'em in, and make sure to debate all of my current ones, I want
to hear what you have to say, too. Hopefully Cap will read this......and get
everyone's opinion into one. OK......I'm gonna go get some ice for my hands
now. Later!
_______________
"Ken"
Vortex Gaming Online
Senior Editor/Game Counselor
www.vortexonline.com
"Your best teacher in life, are your own mistakes."
Harris Bias
In article <199803172234...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
vgo...@aol.com (VGO Ken) wrote:
>
> But what is the "perfect" SF game? None at all, because no SF game appeals
> to the whole crowd. ST appeals to experts and old-schoolers because of
tweaked
> gameplay and precise combos, A2 appeals to the "lower class" because of it's
> easy to learn, Custom Combo (hee, hee) interface. So how can you make a
> perfect game? I mean, experts and intermediates and novices all like
> completely different things. Quite frankly, the three grades of players all
> have their own "clique" of SF games they like. And, also, (no offense, but)
> they are pretty much stubborn to play eachother's games (example, Beginners
> won't play ST, experts won't play Vs. trash [for example, me right there,
> insulting Vs. trash]). Intermediates seem to be the only flexible ones. But
> how, how, how can we expect Capcom to do good for us when there's so many
> varying opinions? Poor Capcom!
You can please all of the people some of the time, and please some of the
people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the
time.
>
> That's why I have a few ideas, and perhaps you guys can add to this. I
mean,
> voice your input and ideas, because the only way Capcom can achieve ST
> greatness again is if they appeal to ALL areas in particular......all three
> classes. Here's the problems, with my ideas:
>
> *SUPER METER*
> How can this be tweaked for everyone's liking.....well, turtles like a
bar to
> stay charged, that way they can wait for a mistake and pull a Y/Y. Experts
Side note: All the time I hear people in this group harping about how Y/Y
are overpowered, but Y'know what? Where I play I just don't see it. I see
Dudley whoopin' major ass and getting perfects frequently ( j. FP, s. FP,
<breakable here> d. RK, FK Dash Upper, FK Dash Upper, j. FP, Corkscrew ->
stunned)
But Y/Y's damage is so poor and their range so short that they are only
middle-lower tier characters where I play (Starcade in Raleigh).
> want turtles to be forced to play offense. So how can this be tweaked? Well,
> Onaje suggested an idea many would agree with, in that the meter is always
> moving down. It's an OK idea, but wouldn't fly, IMO. You need to appeal to
> offensive and defensive players....how could this go about? I've thought
about
> it, and perhaps it can be fixed by simply moving Supers to the back burner.
Reducing their importance from where it is in VS is good but the should
have an impact on the game.
> Hell, when you played ST, you played with other things on your
mind....when you
> play Vs. trash, you play with one thing on mind: Supers. So perhaps if you
> made Supers with different purposes other than mass offense in mind (Healing
> was a good step)?
This is a good idea. More 'utility' supers, like Healing, Tengu Stone,
Kishin Riki, Genei Jin, etc (but balanced).
> Make most Super Arts do mediocre damage unless used
> skillfully in a combo....
You realize this is the opposite of how it works in SF3?
a straight Shinshoryuken does ~50% but a j. FP, cl. FP, FP Shoryuken xx
Shinshinryuken only does about ~30%.
> in other words, no one connect 50% Shin-Shoryuken
> garbage. However, 720 supers neglected, keep them up, but with not as much
> priority, but more than, say, SF3s where you could jump away from them
(BOOO!).
Funny, I thought that jumping away was about the only way to escape a Hyper
Bomb.
> Get what I'm saying? This could appeal to everyone. Back on the subject of
> *meter* itself now, I was thinking that everyone could have different sized
> meter (a la SF3), and plus, the charge would be a lot longer. Also, a la
Yes, different sized meters is definately an improvement, though there
should be a greater range of sizes than in SF3
> SS......if you have a MAX bar, or at least a bar over Level 1, then it goes
> down when you block or something like that. Ideas?
Hmm, none off hand.
>
> *PARRIES*
> Well, parries have always ranked high on my Bullshitometer, so feel free to
> insert opinions here.
Oh, I will.
> First off, I say make the only parries air parries.
> Why? So intermediates wouldn't be always deuced by expert keep-away
traps, and
> so beginners would be forced to learn. Of course, they'd be defensive, in
> other words, you can't counter after them. Another thing, to avoid frequent
> air defense and abuse, it would take away a nice chunk of Super Meter, or
> better yet, you have a limited amount of them.
Gah. Let me just say that I disagree with everything you just said.
>
> *THROWS & TECHS*
> OK, for one, throw damage would be SF3-like, and there would be *no* tech
> hits. Varied throw ranges are good, as are command throws doing damn fine
> damage.
Hey look, we agree on something! Though perhaps the damage could be
slightly higher than SF3.
> One thing I'm not a large fan of are ticks, but they would be in, to
> please tick-lovers, and the only case in which you could tech are in ticks, so
> they are escapable. With perfect timing, of course.....which means turtles
> will suffer from no techs, but victims of ticks, if they are prepared, can
> escape if they have the timing or skill......opinions?
The game would have to have some way of differentiating (sp?) between ticks
and nonticks.
>
> *CHARACTER SELECTION*
> First off, I'd personally like to start on a clean slate with SF. Bring in
> an entirely new cast. Really. I'm sick of Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li, everyone.
A new
You know this isn't going to happen.
> character group, with Capcom starting from scratch, would increase chance for
> even balance, as long as they don't get out of hand. They now have more
> experience, after massively failing with Y/Y and Ibuki in SF3, so they could
> probably balance better than ever. The key here is laying off the alcoholic
> beverages (a shot of Vodka was probably the reason for Strider's heinous
> power). Here's an overview of what I'd like to see.......the total game would
> contain about 15 characters. About 4 average characters, balanced in
speed and
> power, each with great uniquness. 3 grapplers, and I mean *real* grapplers,
> not Alex or Birdie. 2 Pseudo-grapplers, such as Alex or Birdie (but of
course,
> not them themselves). About 3 quick characters (NOT pixies), with balance
> being the key here. Do NOT make them powerful as well......they should hit
> like sissies, with speed being the key, and unpredictability. Finally about 3
> "wierd" characters, such as Dhalsim, Necro, etc. One more note is that no
> characters should be "easy" to use, each character requires some practice to
> use efficiently. (not like say, shotokans)
Well, assuming that they actually did a clean slate you suggest a good
balance of characters. Another side note: I like Alex and, to a lesser
extent, Oro because they use a mix of charge and circle motions which I
think we should see more of.
>
> *DAMAGE CONTROL*
> Capcom should try their damndest to abstain from infinites, or even 100%
> damage combos. They send the first version of the game on a road trip, a la
> MK4, and test for infinites and such problems. Unlike the lazy asses at
> Midway, however, get rid of the infinites by tweaking gameplay, NOT adding
> cheese-ass "Max Damage" b/c you're to lazy to reprogram.
From the sound of it this is what they did with 2I.
> Anyways, once the
> road version is out in arcades for about a month, take what they know and
> tweak, tweak, tweak, and release a version w/o infinites and glitches. Now on
> to actual *damage*. The game should have long, intense bouts with many
moments
> rather than a quick bout with one moment, that moment being a Shin-Shoryuken.
> In other words, damage should be toned down on ALL moves, not just some.
You realize that there are controls to do this in every game?
> In
> other words, previous game-breakers will still be game breakers, it's
just that
> matches last generally longer.
>
> *COMBO SYSTEM*
> <sigh> The first thing is cut down on chains. Send them to a minimal.
Some
> characters should have maybe a jab>fierce chain, or a ducking short>forward
> chain and that's IT.
Perhaps a bit more, but nothing like the VS games.
> Timing must be precise. As for links, have them back in
> by the dozen, still requiring mad skill to do.
Well, some of them. Anybody can combo a jump-in or a low forward.
> Of course, to avoid abusing by
> experts who are used to ST, they should be somewhat limited, albeit less than
> chains. Cancels, two-in-ones, etc, all stay in. Super Cancels? Very
limited.
Perhaps the way they are in SF3 where cancelling cuts the damage in half?
> Maybe a Hadouken>S Hadouken one, or a Shoryuken>Shoryureppa one, but no
> Shoryuken>ShinSho ones or anything massive like that. Also, damage would be
> toned down for these. Juggles? I say hell yeah. Add them in, but not
> abusable. Every character should have a way to pop up the victim, and
juggling
> shouldn't be that easy to do (like chains).
Enh. Don't see to much point in juggles other than for cheese (at the easy
end) or making experts look cool (at the hard end).
>
> <whew> That's about all I can think of now, guys. My fingers are
SOOORE. Any
> more topics, add 'em in, and make sure to debate all of my current ones,
I want
> to hear what you have to say, too. Hopefully Cap will read this......and get
> everyone's opinion into one. OK......I'm gonna go get some ice for my hands
> now. Later!
In case you haven't geussed, I like SF3.
--
G. Harris Bias
hb...@earthlink.net
"That's not a well rounded man. That's a woman."
-Greg Wooledge.
guyver3
Harris Bias wrote:
>
> In article <199803172234...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> > *SUPER METER*
> > How can this be tweaked for everyone's liking.....well, turtles like a
> bar to
> > stay charged, that way they can wait for a mistake and pull a Y/Y. Experts
> > want turtles to be forced to play offense. So how can this be tweaked? Well,
> > Onaje suggested an idea many would agree with, in that the meter is always
> > moving down.
well, why not just have it go down until a level is filled? I
personally like the Alpha meter... have it go down until the most recent
level.... and yeah, take MUCH longer to fill.... You can mix in SF3 by
having some supers take more, like say, Dudley.... (using the SFA2 meter
style)
1.Corkscrew-- 1 level
2.Rocket Uppercut-- 1.5 level
3.Rolling Thunder-- 2 levels(it was never that great)
> >simply moving Supers to the back burner.
>
> Reducing their importance from where it is in VS is good but the should
> have an impact on the game.
>
> > Hell, when you played ST, you played with other things on your
> mind....when you
> > play Vs. trash, you play with one thing on mind: Supers. So perhaps if you
> > made Supers with different purposes other than mass offense in mind (Healing
> > was a good step)?
>
> This is a good idea. More 'utility' supers, like Healing, Tengu Stone,
> Kishin Riki, Genei Jin, etc (but balanced).
>
Agreed here.... I would also recommend EX moves with different levels
instead of making them supers... kinda like mixing alpha supers and
SF3:2i and darkstalkers...
I.E. Ryu and Ken's Shinkuu Hadoken and Shoryureppa:
ex lvl 1 (d,df,f+2p)[SH 3 hits][SR 4 hits]
ex lvl 2 (d,df,f+3p)[just go along with Alpha....]
ex lvl 3 (d,df,fx2+3p) [for the level 3]
I should also add that these kinda things shouldn't do as much damage,
and 'true' supers like shinshoryuken and healing should have only one
'level' as in SF3.... hold multiple ones, maybe but not increase hits,
etc.
have maybe a level 1 ex take about .5 level on the meter, and each
additional level add .5 meter.
And Just DITCH super cancelling.
As for damage proportions, Has anyone ever played SFA2 on PSX with the
damage level set on 1? That does a fair amount of damage...
> > SS......if you have a MAX bar, or at least a bar over Level 1, then it goes
> > down when you block or something like that. Ideas?
>
I like that idea...
> >
> > *PARRIES*
> > First off, I say make the only parries air parries.
> > Why? So intermediates wouldn't be always deuced by expert keep-away
> traps, and
> > so beginners would be forced to learn. Of course, they'd be defensive, in
> > other words, you can't counter after them.
Air parries are cool with me but as for parries in general, yes, ditch
them.
> > *THROWS & TECHS*
> > OK, for one, throw damage would be SF3-like, and there would be *no* tech
> > hits. Varied throw ranges are good, as are command throws doing damn fine
> > damage.
>
> Hey look, we agree on something! Though perhaps the damage could be
> slightly higher than SF3.
>
Yes, i have no problem with throws in SF3
> > *CHARACTER SELECTION*
> > First off, I'd personally like to start on a clean slate with SF. Bring in
> > an entirely new cast. Really. I'm sick of Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li, everyone.
> A new
>
Why not alter ken and ryu just like Ken was altered in MSF?
And change a few motions here and there....
>
> > character group, with Capcom starting from scratch, would increase chance for
> > even balance, as long as they don't get out of hand. They now have more
> > experience, after massively failing with Y/Y and Ibuki in SF3, so they could
> > probably balance better than ever. The key here is laying off the alcoholic
> > beverages (a shot of Vodka was probably the reason for Strider's heinous
> > power). Here's an overview of what I'd like to see.......the total game would
> > contain about 15 characters. About 4 average characters, balanced in
> speed and
> > power, each with great uniquness. 3 grapplers, and I mean *real* grapplers,
> > not Alex or Birdie. 2 Pseudo-grapplers, such as Alex or Birdie (but of
> course,
> > not them themselves). About 3 quick characters (NOT pixies), with balance
> > being the key here. Do NOT make them powerful as well......they should hit
> > like sissies, with speed being the key, and unpredictability. Finally about 3
> > "wierd" characters, such as Dhalsim, Necro, etc. One more note is that no
> > characters should be "easy" to use, each character requires some practice to
> > use efficiently. (not like say, shotokans)
>
> Well, assuming that they actually did a clean slate you suggest a good
> balance of characters. Another side note: I like Alex and, to a lesser
> extent, Oro because they use a mix of charge and circle motions which I
> think we should see more of.
> >
Actually I'd like straight charge or circle motion characters...mixes
are just wrong(*ahem ahem* chunli *ahemAhem*)
> > *DAMAGE CONTROL*
> > Capcom should try their damndest to abstain from infinites, or even 100%
> > damage combos. They send the first version of the game on a road trip, a la
> > MK4, and test for infinites and such problems. Unlike the lazy asses at
> > Midway, however, get rid of the infinites by tweaking gameplay, NOT adding
> > cheese-ass "Max Damage" b/c you're to lazy to reprogram.
>
Agreed. And do you remember those hacked SF2CE boards and Ken's really
looooooooooooong lasting HK? After a while it would stop doing
damage..... stuff like that...
It's impossible to do infinities in SFA2 and any other SF before 3.
> From the sound of it this is what they did with 2I.
>
> > Anyways, once the
> > road version is out in arcades for about a month, take what they know and
> > tweak, tweak, tweak, and release a version w/o infinites and glitches. Now on
> > to actual *damage*. The game should have long, intense bouts with many
> moments
> > rather than a quick bout with one moment, that moment being a Shin-Shoryuken.
> > In other words, damage should be toned down on ALL moves, not just some.
>
Except 720's
> You realize that there are controls to do this in every game?
>
> > In
> > other words, previous game-breakers will still be game breakers, it's
> just that
> > matches last generally longer.
> >
> > *COMBO SYSTEM*
> > <sigh> The first thing is cut down on chains. Send them to a minimal.
> Some
> > characters should have maybe a jab>fierce chain, or a ducking short>forward
> > chain and that's IT.
>
> Perhaps a bit more, but nothing like the VS games.
>
> > Timing must be precise. As for links, have them back in
> > by the dozen, still requiring mad skill to do.
>
> Well, some of them. Anybody can combo a jump-in or a low forward.
>
> > Of course, to avoid abusing by
> > experts who are used to ST, they should be somewhat limited, albeit less than
> > chains. Cancels, two-in-ones, etc, all stay in. Super Cancels? Very
> limited.
>
SF3 chains are nice, see below.
> Perhaps the way they are in SF3 where cancelling cuts the damage in half?
>
> > Maybe a Hadouken>S Hadouken one, or a Shoryuken>Shoryureppa one, but no
> > Shoryuken>ShinSho ones or anything massive like that. Also, damage would be
> > toned down for these. Juggles? I say hell yeah. Add them in, but not
> > abusable. Every character should have a way to pop up the victim, and
> juggling
> > shouldn't be that easy to do (like chains).
>
Yes.... A2 juggles were nice.... except CC's
Yeah, 1/2 damage on each successive hit sounds right.... feel free to do
more hits except they do no more damage, or add more to the stun
meter(another good idea imo)
Vong (Shinji) Sundara
VGO Ken wrote:
> <clears throat>
>
> OK, it appears to me, from spending quite a lot of time with this NG, that
> the perfect SF game as of yet is ST. While this may be true, what do novice or
> intermediate players say? Usually A2. Now, before I get to far into this, I
> want to voice that I consider myself between intermediate and expert (in other
> words, I've come to understand the greatness of traps, ticks, and the rest of
> the stuff experts consider good b/c they can break them, but I myself am still
> learning to break).
That's about where I am too (maybe more advanced or less, I'm not sure since
I live in a small city compared to the big American cities and haven't been tested
like the rest of you). Just telling you this so you know where my point of view
is coming from. By the way, I feel that HF (Hyper Fighting) is the best ever with
ST very close behind it (sacrifice hurricane anyone? Ryu's hurricane has never
been the same since, and in HF, I could use all that characters competitively
in my arcades except for M. Bison and Blanka). By the way, if you want to know
more about my gameplay, my favorite old school characters were Vega, Chun-Li,
Ryu, Guile, Dhalsim (but I used him VERY differently from others, up close pressure
tactics combined with all range attacks, especially with his ducking forward kick
and drill punch and kicks up close and middle range when they think i'm going to
do a ducking forward, it moves them forward while not putting you in great threat,
and of course the long range strategies that everybody else uses too),
and so forth (basically most of them). Hmmm, other info to tell you where I'm
coming from, I HATE Alpha 2 (Custom Combos, Air Blocks, bad character design
where I only used a total of 4 characters out of the around 18 available, and this
is from someone who gives EVERY new character at least a couple weeks worth
of testing, and they even managed to make my Dhalsim useless, for the way I use
him anyways).
>
>
> But what is the "perfect" SF game? None at all, because no SF game appeals
> to the whole crowd. ST appeals to experts and old-schoolers because of tweaked
> gameplay and precise combos, A2 appeals to the "lower class" because of it's
> easy to learn, Custom Combo (hee, hee) interface. So how can you make a
> perfect game? I mean, experts and intermediates and novices all like
> completely different things. Quite frankly, the three grades of players all
> have their own "clique" of SF games they like. And, also, (no offense, but)
> they are pretty much stubborn to play eachother's games (example, Beginners
> won't play ST, experts won't play Vs. trash [for example, me right there,
> insulting Vs. trash]). Intermediates seem to be the only flexible ones. But
> how, how, how can we expect Capcom to do good for us when there's so many
> varying opinions? Poor Capcom!
Maybe that's why they were confused with SF3 and made it not really fit into
anybody's category (experts hate cheap OS'ing Y/Y and beginners hate the
pace).
>
>
> That's why I have a few ideas, and perhaps you guys can add to this. I mean,
> voice your input and ideas, because the only way Capcom can achieve ST
> greatness again is if they appeal to ALL areas in particular......all three
> classes. Here's the problems, with my ideas:
>
> *SUPER METER*
> How can this be tweaked for everyone's liking.....well, turtles like a bar to
> stay charged, that way they can wait for a mistake and pull a Y/Y. Experts
> want turtles to be forced to play offense. So how can this be tweaked? Well,
> Onaje suggested an idea many would agree with, in that the meter is always
> moving down. It's an OK idea, but wouldn't fly, IMO. You need to appeal to
> offensive and defensive players....how could this go about? I've thought about
> it, and perhaps it can be fixed by simply moving Supers to the back burner.
> Hell, when you played ST, you played with other things on your mind....when you
> play Vs. trash, you play with one thing on mind: Supers. So perhaps if you
> made Supers with different purposes other than mass offense in mind (Healing
> was a good step)? Make most Super Arts do mediocre damage unless used
> skillfully in a combo....in other words, no one connect 50% Shin-Shoryuken
> garbage. However, 720 supers neglected, keep them up, but with not as much
> priority, but more than, say, SF3s where you could jump away from them (BOOO!).
> Get what I'm saying? This could appeal to everyone. Back on the subject of
> *meter* itself now, I was thinking that everyone could have different sized
> meter (a la SF3), and plus, the charge would be a lot longer. Also, a la
> SS......if you have a MAX bar, or at least a bar over Level 1, then it goes
> down when you block or something like that. Ideas?
SF3's idea was great but please don't have them do LESS damage in a combo.That's
just plain stupid. Also don't make it so that EVERYBODY chooses the
same super because it is so much more powerful than the other two you can
select from (example, Elena's healing and so forth). They should be unique
enough that some are better for your personal style or against certain characters.
>
>
> *PARRIES*
> Well, parries have always ranked high on my Bullshitometer, so feel free to
> insert opinions here. First off, I say make the only parries air parries.
> Why? So intermediates wouldn't be always deuced by expert keep-away traps, and
> so beginners would be forced to learn. Of course, they'd be defensive, in
> other words, you can't counter after them. Another thing, to avoid frequent
> air defense and abuse, it would take away a nice chunk of Super Meter, or
> better yet, you have a limited amount of them.
Get rid of them. That's all, it seems experts hate it for OS'ing Yangs and
beginnerscan't even do them. As for Air Parrying, they're not so bad but if you
jump into
the air, there should be that little bit of vulnerability since if you guess right,
you can
start off a combo and do massive damage (old school massive, not this 100% combo
crap). If they make going airborne safe, it takes out the risk of it and also
takes away
the air priority that belonged to Chun Li in the old school games since if you get
trapped,
you could always air block (in most cases anyways).
>
>
> *THROWS & TECHS*
> OK, for one, throw damage would be SF3-like, and there would be *no* tech
> hits. Varied throw ranges are good, as are command throws doing damn fine
> damage. One thing I'm not a large fan of are ticks, but they would be in, to
> please tick-lovers, and the only case in which you could tech are in ticks, so
> they are escapable. With perfect timing, of course.....which means turtles
> will suffer from no techs, but victims of ticks, if they are prepared, can
> escape if they have the timing or skill......opinions?
I don't like Tech hits either. SF3's damage was okay but maybe a
Darkstalker'ssystem would be good here (you know, a regular throw that does about
two
ticks damage and a command throw that does more).
>
>
> *CHARACTER SELECTION*
> First off, I'd personally like to start on a clean slate with SF. Bring in
> an entirely new cast. Really. I'm sick of Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li, everyone. A new
> character group, with Capcom starting from scratch, would increase chance for
> even balance, as long as they don't get out of hand. They now have more
> experience, after massively failing with Y/Y and Ibuki in SF3, so they could
> probably balance better than ever. The key here is laying off the alcoholic
> beverages (a shot of Vodka was probably the reason for Strider's heinous
> power). Here's an overview of what I'd like to see.......the total game would
> contain about 15 characters. About 4 average characters, balanced in speed and
> power, each with great uniquness. 3 grapplers, and I mean *real* grapplers,
> not Alex or Birdie. 2 Pseudo-grapplers, such as Alex or Birdie (but of course,
> not them themselves). About 3 quick characters (NOT pixies), with balance
> being the key here. Do NOT make them powerful as well......they should hit
> like sissies, with speed being the key, and unpredictability. Finally about 3
> "wierd" characters, such as Dhalsim, Necro, etc. One more note is that no
> characters should be "easy" to use, each character requires some practice to
> use efficiently. (not like say, shotokans)
Perfect idea, SF3 came so close to this but they just couldn't get rid of Kenand
Ryu. I love Ryu as much as the next guy (but I hate Akuma, to use that
is, it's kind of fun kicking Akuma's ass with Ryu when everyone thinks Akuma
is superior) but I'm sick of facing him. Oh yeah, let's not forget some more
charge characters (people WILL use charge characters if they're well designed,
none of this Charlie crap, remember the number of Guile users?).
>
>
> *DAMAGE CONTROL*
> Capcom should try their damndest to abstain from infinites, or even 100%
> damage combos. They send the first version of the game on a road trip, a la
> MK4, and test for infinites and such problems. Unlike the lazy asses at
> Midway, however, get rid of the infinites by tweaking gameplay, NOT adding
> cheese-ass "Max Damage" b/c you're to lazy to reprogram. Anyways, once the
> road version is out in arcades for about a month, take what they know and
> tweak, tweak, tweak, and release a version w/o infinites and glitches. Now on
> to actual *damage*. The game should have long, intense bouts with many moments
> rather than a quick bout with one moment, that moment being a Shin-Shoryuken.
> In other words, damage should be toned down on ALL moves, not just some. In
> other words, previous game-breakers will still be game breakers, it's just that
> matches last generally longer.
Good idea...
>
>
> *COMBO SYSTEM*
> <sigh> The first thing is cut down on chains. Send them to a minimal. Some
> characters should have maybe a jab>fierce chain, or a ducking short>forward
> chain and that's IT. Timing must be precise. As for links, have them back in
> by the dozen, still requiring mad skill to do. Of course, to avoid abusing by
> experts who are used to ST, they should be somewhat limited, albeit less than
> chains. Cancels, two-in-ones, etc, all stay in. Super Cancels? Very limited.
> Maybe a Hadouken>S Hadouken one, or a Shoryuken>Shoryureppa one, but no
> Shoryuken>ShinSho ones or anything massive like that. Also, damage would be
> toned down for these. Juggles? I say hell yeah. Add them in, but not
> abusable. Every character should have a way to pop up the victim, and juggling
> shouldn't be that easy to do (like chains).
Yes yes yes. But I like SF3's chain system (limited for some, good for others).If
not this, then I like your idea of bringing back more links, I hated the way they
took away Chun's ducking forward, ducking roundhouse link. Two-in-ones
definitely have to stay, they are what the SF game engine is based upon (for
most characters anyways).
- Shinji's SF Battleground
"http://www.escape.ca/~vssun"
seth james killian
vgo...@aol.com (VGO Ken) writes:
><clears throat>
> OK, it appears to me, from spending quite a lot of time with this NG, that
>the perfect SF game as of yet is ST.
ST is not perfect. It is just substantially better than every
other version of SF (or any fighting game, or any (uniquely) video game).
That ST should be the best is obvious. It is 4th (5th) modification to
an essentially unchanged game engine, each being to a large degree a
"tweaking" of the last one- working out bugs, accounting for various
deficiencies, etc.
> But what is the "perfect" SF game? None at all, because no SF game appeals
>to the whole crowd.
You simply have to get your objective straight. If it is to make
the best possible SF game, then catering to novices is obviously going to
get in your way. A2 is more fun for more people because (like all the
successful VS games) it has a much wider margin for error. You can play
kinda sloppy and still do fine, or at least get punished less.
because the only way Capcom can achieve ST
>greatness again is if they appeal to ALL areas in particular......all three
>classes.
This is just false. Achieving greatness does not mean appealing
to everyone in videogames any more than it means appealing to everyone in
any other area. Not everyone who plays videogames is a good judge of
what is or is not a good game. Just like not everyone who drinks wine
is a good judge of a great wine, etc. Duh.
>Here's the problems, with my ideas:
>*SUPER METER*
>*PARRIES*
>*THROWS & TECHS*
(include also Custom Combos, ACs, juggling (less offensive, but...),
air-blocking (partial or total), etc.)
Here's a simpler idea: throw all this garbage out. Ask yourself
a simple question: What existing problem in previous SFs were these
"innovations" designed to solve? The answer: None. They were just
thrown in to the engine willy-nilly to attract new players, in the hopes
that we'd find them "real cool". In large part, this has worked. It has
attracted new players, although it has done so at the clear expense of
gameplay. If anything was wrong with ST, it was precisely throw-s
oftening (not a huge deal), and supers. Although the supers weren't
usually that big a deal, and often added interesting elements to some
fights, they were really superfluous. Just eye-candy. And overall,
IMO, they did hurt the gameplay, even though ST is still the greatest
SF.
Throw softening was an example of precisely what you advocate
above: trying to cater to the scrubs. They didn't like being thrown,
so we'll give them a 50% rebate on their damage.
These were all ideas of questionable motivation, which were
implemented with varying degrees of success. Most just messed things
up needlessly, and now reside in our modern display cases of gameplay
garbage dumps: the VS series.
>*CHARACTER SELECTION*
> First off, I'd personally like to start on a clean slate with SF.
I've refrained from criticizing your particular (and dumb)
suggestions as yet, but this is really, really a dumb idea.
Bring in
>an entirely new cast. Really. I'm sick of Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li, everyone.
You're sick of them because you never understood them, and
have probably never even seen them played to a significant fraction
of their potential. Any character is dumb in a dumb game engine.
Ryu, Guile, Dhalsim, etc., are absolute masterpieces of
character design, despite what they've become today. While retiring
them shouldn't be out of the question, it shouldn't be because they
are just "played out" (they're not), or because fools like you can't
look past the name under your life bar, and are "sick of them".
A new
>character group, with Capcom starting from scratch, would increase chance for
>even balance, as long as they don't get out of hand.
This is absolutely false. The best chance they have for balance
is to keep "tweaking" an existing game, which has been thoroughly play
tested. Find the problems, and address them. Introducing a whole new
cast of characters (unless there were only, say, two (which might interest
me, but I know you'd find it "too dull")) would make effectively balancing
them all but impossible. That is, unless you go the MK route and have
everyone being essentially clones of one another...
They now have more
>experience, after massively failing with Y/Y and Ibuki in SF3, so they could
>probably balance better than ever.
Who has more experience? "Capcom"? Individuals/teams design
these games, and Capcom (like any company) has turnover, such that many
different people probably work on each game. Clearly, they have not gotten
(much) better at balancing games after 9 years.
>*DAMAGE CONTROL*
> Capcom should try their damndest to abstain from infinites, or even 100%
>damage combos.
Minus engines that depend on juggling, infinites and 100% combos
have never ever been a problem in SF games, even though they've been in
every one. The difference is (duh)- they used to be HARD to do. Now
they're very easy. If you *expect* players to be landing 20 hit combos
(on AVERAGE!), the difference between putting 20 hits together and 99
isn't really all that much. Really the issue here is juggling, which
invites infinites (or makes them much harder to effectively avoid
slipping in). Again, juggling wasn't necessary to SF for a long time,
and although it's kinda fun, it wouldn't be a crime to see it go.
>*COMBO SYSTEM*
While this is a potentially important topic, all of your
suggestions amount to: "leave it in, but tone it down so it's not so BS.
And don't make it too hard, so only the experts can do it." Pure genius.
Thinking like this, you could have shortened up your whole post to:
Dear Capcom,
Please give us more cool stuff that isn't too hard or easy to do,
and with no BS, and make it original, and also cool. And also I want
a pony. Also, make it cool.
Love, VGO Ken
Kisses,
Seth Killian
Vong (Shinji) Sundara
seth james killian wrote:
> vgo...@aol.com (VGO Ken) writes:
>
> ><clears throat>
>
> > OK, it appears to me, from spending quite a lot of time with this NG, that
> >the perfect SF game as of yet is ST.
>
> ST is not perfect. It is just substantially better than every
> other version of SF (or any fighting game, or any (uniquely) video game).
> That ST should be the best is obvious. It is 4th (5th) modification to
> an essentially unchanged game engine, each being to a large degree a
> "tweaking" of the last one- working out bugs, accounting for various
> deficiencies, etc.
You're right, it's not perfect. I still prefer HF but ST is a close second.
>
>
> > But what is the "perfect" SF game? None at all, because no SF game appeals
> >to the whole crowd.
>
> You simply have to get your objective straight. If it is to make
> the best possible SF game, then catering to novices is obviously going to
> get in your way. A2 is more fun for more people because (like all the
> successful VS games) it has a much wider margin for error. You can play
> kinda sloppy and still do fine, or at least get punished less.
I didn't like A2. I wished they returned to more old school. Take out thesecrap
"special innovations" that hamper gameplay (parries, anyone?) and
concentrate on good character design (defence should come from design,
not from Alpha counters, parries, etc.).
>
>
> because the only way Capcom can achieve ST
> >greatness again is if they appeal to ALL areas in particular......all three
> >classes.
>
> This is just false. Achieving greatness does not mean appealing
> to everyone in videogames any more than it means appealing to everyone in
> any other area. Not everyone who plays videogames is a good judge of
> what is or is not a good game. Just like not everyone who drinks wine
> is a good judge of a great wine, etc. Duh.
I agree.
>
>
> >*CHARACTER SELECTION*
> > First off, I'd personally like to start on a clean slate with SF.
>
> I've refrained from criticizing your particular (and dumb)
> suggestions as yet, but this is really, really a dumb idea.
>
> Bring in
> >an entirely new cast. Really. I'm sick of Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li, everyone.
>
> You're sick of them because you never understood them, and
> have probably never even seen them played to a significant fraction
> of their potential. Any character is dumb in a dumb game engine.
> Ryu, Guile, Dhalsim, etc., are absolute masterpieces of
> character design, despite what they've become today. While retiring
> them shouldn't be out of the question, it shouldn't be because they
> are just "played out" (they're not), or because fools like you can't
> look past the name under your life bar, and are "sick of them".
I'm personally sick of them too. Not just because you think I suck or anything(I
love using many characters and I can use most of them competitively too)
but a fresh game would be nice. SF3 almost did this but at the start, nobody
chose people except Ryu (scrubs, at least) which defeated the purpose of
having an all-new except for two people cast.>*DAMAGE CONTROL*
> While this is a potentially important topic, all of your
> suggestions amount to: "leave it in, but tone it down so it's not so BS.
> And don't make it too hard, so only the experts can do it." Pure genius.
> Thinking like this, you could have shortened up your whole post to:
>
> Dear Capcom,
> Please give us more cool stuff that isn't too hard or easy to do,
> and with no BS, and make it original, and also cool. And also I want
> a pony. Also, make it cool.
>
> Love, VGO Ken
>
> Kisses,
> Seth Killian
-Shinji
Faust XVS
>But what is the "perfect" SF game? None at all, because no SF game appeals
>to the whole crowd. ST appeals to experts and old-schoolers because of
>tweaked
>gameplay and precise combos, A2 appeals to the "lower class" because of it's
>easy to learn, Custom Combo (hee, hee) interface. So how can you make a
>perfect game? I mean, experts and intermediates and novices all like
>completely different things. Quite frankly, the three grades of players all
>have their own "clique" of SF games they like. And, also, (no offense, but)
>they are pretty much stubborn to play eachother's games (example, Beginners
>won't play ST, experts won't play Vs. trash [for example, me right there,
>insulting Vs. trash]). Intermediates seem to be the only flexible ones. But
>how, how, how can we expect Capcom to do good for us when there's so many
>varying opinions? Poor Capcom!
Damn skippy. Like the expression says, you can't please all the people all the
time. Capcom tends to favor the beginner/intermediate crowd due to the fact
that there are more of them out there, and well, Capcom's a business. Sure,
they like to make good games, but it all comes down to making money. I'm not
using money as an excuse, it's just the way the world works...
>
>*PARRIES*
> Well, parries have always ranked high on my Bullshitometer, so feel free to
>insert opinions here. First off, I say make the only parries air parries.
>Why? So intermediates wouldn't be always deuced by expert keep-away traps,
>and
>so beginners would be forced to learn. Of course, they'd be defensive, in
>other words, you can't counter after them. Another thing, to avoid frequent
>air defense and abuse, it would take away a nice chunk of Super Meter, or
>better yet, you have a limited amount of them.
Very cool idea. I'm pretty fucking tired of having cool attacks air blocked by
any idiot who played SF for the 1st time in his/her life.
Parries were a good idea, but then people started to abuse em, then they
started to suck. Having them only in the air makes air defense a little bit
harder to do, but not too hard.
>*THROWS & TECHS*
> OK, for one, throw damage would be SF3-like, and there would be *no* tech
>hits. Varied throw ranges are good, as are command throws doing damn fine
>damage. One thing I'm not a large fan of are ticks, but they would be in, to
>please tick-lovers, and the only case in which you could tech are in ticks,
>so
>they are escapable. With perfect timing, of course.....which means turtles
>will suffer from no techs, but victims of ticks, if they are prepared, can
>escape if they have the timing or skill......opinions?
Another cool idea. Throwing in SF3 was pretty cool, and your addition made it
better.
>*CHARACTER SELECTION*
> First off, I'd personally like to start on a clean slate with SF. Bring in
>an entirely new cast. Really. I'm sick of Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li, everyone. A
>new
>character group, with Capcom starting from scratch, would increase chance for
>even balance, as long as they don't get out of hand. They now have more
>experience, after massively failing with Y/Y and Ibuki in SF3, so they could
>probably balance better than ever. The key here is laying off the alcoholic
>beverages (a shot of Vodka was probably the reason for Strider's heinous
>power). Here's an overview of what I'd like to see.......the total game
>would
>contain about 15 characters. About 4 average characters, balanced in speed
>and
>power, each with great uniquness. 3 grapplers, and I mean *real* grapplers,
>not Alex or Birdie. 2 Pseudo-grapplers, such as Alex or Birdie (but of
>course,
>not them themselves). About 3 quick characters (NOT pixies), with balance
>being the key here. Do NOT make them powerful as well......they should hit
>like sissies, with speed being the key, and unpredictability. Finally about
>3
>"wierd" characters, such as Dhalsim, Necro, etc. One more note is that no
>characters should be "easy" to use, each character requires some practice to
>use efficiently. (not like say, shotokans)
Agree mostly with this. The ony thing I disagree is with Ryu. I know, I know,
he's a Shoto and everyone here's damn sick of him, but fuckin' aye! He's IS
Street Fighter. Taking him out would suck in my opinion at least. Capcom
should keep him, but ONLY him. They would of course, have to change his style
a great deal. They could either give him an entire new system of attacks (but
then it just wouldn't be him) or blend in the abilities of the other Shotos
into him (not like that BS in MvC, but all the powers in one guy. Of course,
the powers will have to be balanced so he wouldn't be too much of a bitch).
>*DAMAGE CONTROL*
> Capcom should try their damndest to abstain from infinites, or even 100%
>damage combos. They send the first version of the game on a road trip, a la
>MK4, and test for infinites and such problems. Unlike the lazy asses at
>Midway, however, get rid of the infinites by tweaking gameplay, NOT adding
>cheese-ass "Max Damage" b/c you're to lazy to reprogram. Anyways, once the
>road version is out in arcades for about a month, take what they know and
>tweak, tweak, tweak, and release a version w/o infinites and glitches. Now
>on
>to actual *damage*. The game should have long, intense bouts with many
>moments
>rather than a quick bout with one moment, that moment being a Shin-Shoryuken.
>
>In other words, damage should be toned down on ALL moves, not just some. In
>other words, previous game-breakers will still be game breakers, it's just
>that
>matches last generally longer.
No complaints here.
>*COMBO SYSTEM*
> <sigh> The first thing is cut down on chains. Send them to a minimal.
>Some
>characters should have maybe a jab>fierce chain, or a ducking short>forward
>chain and that's IT. Timing must be precise. As for links, have them back
>in
>by the dozen, still requiring mad skill to do. Of course, to avoid abusing
>by
>experts who are used to ST, they should be somewhat limited, albeit less than
>chains. Cancels, two-in-ones, etc, all stay in. Super Cancels? Very
>limited.
> Maybe a Hadouken>S Hadouken one, or a Shoryuken>Shoryureppa one, but no
>Shoryuken>ShinSho ones or anything massive like that. Also, damage would be
>toned down for these. Juggles? I say hell yeah. Add them in, but not
>abusable. Every character should have a way to pop up the victim, and
>juggling
>shouldn't be that easy to do (like chains).
As for combos, the SF3 way was cool. Limited chaining and linking is cool.
Chain combos I wouldn't mind too much (as long as it isn't VS style), but
custom combos have to go.
One thing you forgot. There's something that both beginners and experts could
use. A GOOD STORY LINE! I'm damn sick and tired of those 2 second crappy
endings. Give us some cool Final Fantasy-type endings!!! Well, maybe not THAT
far. : )
Faust!
Writer for Vortex Gaming Online (www.vortexonline.com)
Founder of Faust's Ryu Page (www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/7055)
"TV's most popular chef is a nice guy. But if you get him mad, then you'd
better get out of his way!"
VGO Ken
> ST is not perfect. It is just substantially better than every
>other version of SF (or any fighting game, or any (uniquely) video game).
I said that it appears so far to be the ideal SF for everyone here, I didn't
mean it was perfect.
>I've refrained from criticizing your particular (and dumb)
>suggestions as yet, but this is really, really a dumb idea.
There's been too much time to practice with existing characters, IMO. It's
about DAMN time people learned someone new, not relying on old favs....
>You're sick of them because you never understood them,
<claps> Great generalization, Seth! Immediately assume that I never
understood them. I'm taking notes, bud!
> and
>have probably never even seen them played to a significant fraction
>of their potential.
You are on FIRE. For your information, your response was going good until the
unwanted flame came. Anyways, I personally HAVE seen them all played well, and
I respect that they are great character design. But Capcom can't rely on old
character designs that were good for the rest of their life. They need new
good character design. Thus my point.
>Ryu, Guile, Dhalsim, etc., are absolute masterpieces of
>character design, despite what they've become today. While retiring
>them shouldn't be out of the question, it shouldn't be because they
>are just "played out" (they're not), or because fools like you can't
>look past the name under your life bar, and are "sick of them".
Yeah, they are great character design. My suggestion was retire them because
they are now old characters, and have been basically used and mastered to a
great extent. No matter how you bring them back, the original masters won't
take long to master them again. Thus, my clean slate idea.
>This is absolutely false. The best chance they have for balance
>is to keep "tweaking" an existing game, which has been thoroughly play
>tested.
That's why I said there'd have to be many revisions, and to take it on a road
tour like MK4....
>While this is a potentially important topic, all of your
>suggestions amount to: "leave it in, but tone it down so it's not so BS.
>And don't make it too hard, so only the experts can do it." Pure genius.
>Thinking like this, you could have shortened up your whole post to:
Basically, your idea was to just keep tweaking current games and have no
innovation at all. Make another ST with better balance, don't move on at all.
Keep all the old characters. Plain and simply SF is going to suck if Capcom
doesn't begin to tweak a brand new game to perfection.
It's funny, because Capcom NEEDS a clean slate in a game. They've been too
over reliant on past genius ideas before, and then when they try new ideas,
they suck (see: SF3). So, that's my opinion. And, if you're going to respond,
you need not bite off my face again.
seth james killian
vgo...@aol.com (VGO Ken) writes:
>> ST is not perfect. It is just substantially better than every
>>other version of SF (or any fighting game, or any (uniquely) video game).
>I said that it appears so far to be the ideal SF for everyone here, I didn't
>mean it was perfect.
While quibbling over words doesn't much interest me, it's worth
pointing out that you are unclear and misspeak even when you're trying to
clarify (not a good trait for an "editor", self-appointed or otherwise)-
ST is not "the ideal". It is just the best that's come along
so far, and pretty damn good at the same time. This is not "the best", or
"the ideal".
>>I've refrained from criticizing your particular (and dumb)
>>suggestions as yet, but this is really, really a dumb idea.
>There's been too much time to practice with existing characters, IMO. It's
>about DAMN time people learned someone new, not relying on old favs....
Many of the same basic techniques apply to all characters (FB
motions, 2in1-ing, etc). This is not a problem, and I assume not what
you are recommending be changed.
I assume you are referring to a given character's "basic
strategies", like a Ryu FB/DP trap, etc. However, if this is what you
meant, this is ridiculous. As is plainly obvious at any level of play
beyond blatant scrub, the same tricks do not really work from one game
to the next, and certainly not from one game *engine* to the next. Does
an effective Ken in SF32I play anything like CE Ken, or ST Ken for that
matter? What about in A2? Of course, the answer is no. While the
name under the lifebar still says "Ken", and he looks roughly the same,
you have to play vastly different styles in all of these games to be
effective. This is why I don't understand your whining about "the
same old characters"- in reality there is very little that plays the
same from one version to the next. Some basic combos, moves, etc.
remain the same, but their proper function and effectiveness changes
dramatically. Calling this "the same old, same old" is just being
superficial.
>>You're sick of them because you never understood them,
><claps> Great generalization, Seth! Immediately assume that I never
>understood them. I'm taking notes, bud!
As elaborated above, it's fairly clear to me that you don't
really know what you're talking about (although your "contributions"
to other threads have reaffirmed this conviction...). But I'm glad
to see we can remain "buds" through this minor unpleasantness.
>> and
>>have probably never even seen them played to a significant fraction
>>of their potential.
>You are on FIRE. For your information, your response was going good until the
>unwanted flame came. Anyways, I personally HAVE seen them all played well, and
>I respect that they are great character design.
I guess I should take your word for it about having seen good
players then, right? Even though you post crap in other threads which
confesses you don't really know what's up? Instead, why don't I just
wait until you get something *right*, then I'll give you some credit.
But Capcom can't rely on old
>character designs that were good for the rest of their life. They need new
>good character design. Thus my point.
Thus *what* point? All you do is assume your conclusion. *WHY*
can't Capcom rely on old character designs? You haven't given a single
damn reason, outside of something like "the kids want something new". As
I've mentioned, if your real goal is to create a *good* SF game, rather
than a popular one, changes should come for legitimate gameplay reasons,
and not just the random whim of most players.
>Yeah, they are great character design. My suggestion was retire them because
>they are now old characters, and have been basically used and mastered to a
>great extent. No matter how you bring them back, the original masters won't
>take long to master them again. Thus, my clean slate idea.
If you haven't noticed, the "original masters" tend to master
whatever character it is that is great. SF champions usually last for
several versions of a game, and only sometimes do they stick with the
same character. They find a strong character (typically), and beat
everyone down with them, regardless of whether that character was in
earlier versions.
Apart from your equation of "old = bad", I see nothing left of
your point.
>>This is absolutely false. The best chance they have for balance
>>is to keep "tweaking" an existing game, which has been thoroughly play
>>tested.
>That's why I said there'd have to be many revisions, and to take it on a road
>tour like MK4....
Hello? "There'd have to be many revisions..."- Hmm... can we think
of an EXISTING engine that's had "many revisions", with good balance, and
that's been "on tour"? Hmm... think real hard. Try to guess my answer.
Why wouldn't this be a good (even the best) candidate for what you suggest?
Because, of course, it's OLD, and as we all know, OLD = BAD.
>Basically, your idea was to just keep tweaking current games and have no
>innovation at all. Make another ST with better balance, don't move on at all.
>Keep all the old characters. Plain and simply SF is going to suck if Capcom
>doesn't begin to tweak a brand new game to perfection.
Plain and simply: WHY would SF suck if Capcom did what I suggest?
Clearly, it would probably not be profitable. No real question there.
But I thought you were interested in making a GOOD SF game. If you want
a popular SF game, that's not a problem. The VS series are doing quite
well. Can a game be both good and popular? Of course, but not based on
any of your "suggestions" so far.
You're a fool if you think a tweaked and revised ST would "suck".
It would be the best game ever created on any possible standard (gameplay,
balance, character design, etc.), apart from not being "new". That's
the only thing it would lack, and primarily that appeals to fools.
>It's funny, because Capcom NEEDS a clean slate in a game. They've been too
>over reliant on past genius ideas before, and then when they try new ideas,
>they suck (see: SF3). So, that's my opinion. And, if you're going to respond,
>you need not bite off my face again.
Well, we agree on one thing. When Capcom tries new ideas, they
suck (mostly). So explain to me again slowly why sticking with the
non-sucky ideas is such a bad thing?
You may notice that my reply has taken a funny form- it employs
strange techniques called "arguments", rather than just stating what I
believe to be the case, and repeating it over and over again mindlessly.
Look into it.
And I hope I wasn't too "mean", because we all know how delicate
feelings can be. SF video gaming newsgroups should be all about
gentlemanly decorum, even if the content of the posts are pure crap.
Good day to you sir,
Seth Killian
VGO Ken
> Many of the same basic techniques apply to all characters (FB
>motions, 2in1-ing, etc). This is not a problem, and I assume not what
>you are recommending be changed.
I didn't mean techniques. I meant character design as a whole. Guile, Ken,
Ryu, all characters that have been used to death, and a clean slate would be
fitting to prove that Capcom can re-create the previous success they achieved
with Ryu, Ken, Guile, etc. Sort of a prove their worth thing.
>I assume you are referring to a given character's "basic
>strategies", like a Ryu FB/DP trap, etc. However, if this is what you
>meant, this is ridiculous. As is plainly obvious at any level of play
>beyond blatant scrub, the same tricks do not really work from one game
>to the next, and certainly not from one game *engine* to the next.
Well, you shouldn't assume. After all, it makes an ASS out of U and ME.
<snicker> Anyways, I meant the characters themselves, not strategies. Make
some new characters with NEW infamous strategies, I'll be 2x as happy as
bringing back an oldie. Not because I'm a scrub, but because I would like to
see Capcom *not* rely on an idea they thought of 10 years ago for once.
That's the problem. Keep accepting Capcom repeating itself with slight change
and you'll be given the same thing over and over.
>Does
>an effective Ken in SF32I play anything like CE Ken, or ST Ken for that
>matter?
No, but the moves remain the same for the most part, along with some
strategies. Now honestly, you're saying a CE master with Ken, can't learn ST
Ken within a few days? Bullshit. Then it only takes that master to learn 2i
Ken a short time.....and same moves, and some same strategies apply.
>As elaborated above, it's fairly clear to me that you don't
>really know what you're talking about
You just assumed (once again making an....aw, forget it) that I never
understood the characters. I don't really know what I'm talking about? Wow
you sure are dodging the tough ones.....you made a bad assumption, and now hide
behind a lame excuse and some other mistake posts of mine (of which I've
apologized for).
>I guess I should take your word for it about having seen good
>players then, right?
How should I take *your* word? Because you play ST?
>Thus *what* point?
The "Clean Slate" policy is a better move for Cap.
>You haven't given a single
>damn reason, outside of something like "the kids want something new".
No, actually, it's pretty simple. Old characters are getting tiresome, and
they never change that much. In fact, they don't change anywhere NEAR as much
as a new character (b/c the newbie is brand-spankin new). Thus, the experts
have to learn someone completely new. This almost worked in SF3, if it weren't
for some bad character design, bad gameplay, and Ryu and Ken.
>As
>I've mentioned, if your real goal is to create a *good* SF game, rather
>than a popular one, changes should come for legitimate gameplay reasons,
>and not just the random whim of most players.
What legitimate reasons have you made? None, besides "tweak ST". No brainer.
But if we don't move on to a *new* and greater ST, how can we ever move
forward? Your post was just a flame to me b/c the ideas I had you disagreed
with. I asked for everyone's input, not flame. So please, you already ruined
my post, just quit sticking to the bottom of my shoe.
>Apart from your equation of "old = bad", I see nothing left of
>your point.
I never said "old = bad", I just said that it'd be nice to move on rather than
stay in the past.
>Hello? "There'd have to be many revisions..."- Hmm... can we think
>of an EXISTING engine that's had "many revisions", with good balance, and
>that's been "on tour"?
Yeah, DUH, SF2......that's why ST was so good, thus my idea to make the next SF
good by running it and tweaking multiple times. So we can have a *new* ST.
>Because, of course, it's OLD, and as we all know, OLD = BAD.
Once again, you misunderstand,them flame. You better get your facts STRAIGHT
before insulting someone, for you are truly ignorant and quite a pain in the
ass to me.
>Plain and simply: WHY would SF suck if Capcom did what I suggest?
Why? Because it's basically the same thing served over and over on a silver
platter that tasted good......and after awhile, it gets tiring. Saying "tweak
ST" is like saying, "Capcom, please give us the same old". See, this is what
Capcom probably wants. To take the easy way out by tweaking a current great
game. I'm SICK of revised SF over and over again. I personally want to see an
ORIGINAL SF that acheives ST status. Not another upgrade to ST, which, while
probably being the best SF yet, would be completely unoriginal and an easy way
for Capcom to "let us eat cake". Damn it I want a new game that gives us
originality, greatness, and PROOF that Capcom can still make good, orignal
ideas! Until then, I'll play ST, disappointed in Capcom's former greatness,
now laziness.
>But I thought you were interested in making a GOOD SF game.
I am........and recycling ST would piss me off severely. I don't want any more
tweaking on it. I'm not saying innovation over tried and true, but GOOD
innovation that beats the tried and true sure BEATS tried and true! That's
what I want! A good SF again...
>You're a fool if you think a tweaked and revised ST would "suck".
Sure, it wouldn't suck, it'd just be proof that Capcom could manipulate you and
use a tried and true idea over and over to win money.......fuck, I'd BOYCOTT a
new version of ST just to prove to Capcom if they can't top themselves with a
new, better game, then they lost my patronage.
>It would be the best game ever created on any possible standard (gameplay,
>balance, character design, etc.)
Well, after 400 tries, how can it not be perfect? If SF3 had 400 revisions,
it'd be the best game ever, probably......but instead Capcom puts out Vs. shit
in it's place. Seeing my point yet?
>So explain to me again slowly why sticking with the
>non-sucky ideas is such a bad thing?
It's not..........but I'd rather a new ST-caliber game that got tweaked over a
course of 5 years, than a new ST. See?
>You may notice that my reply has taken a funny form- it employs
>strange techniques called "arguments", rather than just stating what I
>believe to be the case, and repeating it over and over again mindlessly.
>Look into it.
It also involves "biased opinions", "misunderstanding of topic points", and
"pure ignorance". Something you seem to excel at.
>And I hope I wasn't too "mean", because we all know how delicate
>feelings can be. SF video gaming newsgroups should be all about
>gentlemanly decorum, even if the content of the posts are pure crap.
>
>
Boy you sure are a poster-boy for being a gentleman. I tried to be
professional at first, but I can't stand you keep flaming me without proper
defense of myself. How can you act like such an asshole like that? State your
opinion kindly, or keep it to yourself.
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net
VGO Ken wrote:
>
> > Many of the same basic techniques apply to all characters (FB
> >motions, 2in1-ing, etc). This is not a problem, and I assume not what
> >you are recommending be changed.
>
> I didn't mean techniques. I meant character design as a whole. Guile, Ken,
> Ryu, all characters that have been used to death, and a clean slate would be
> fitting to prove that Capcom can re-create the previous success they achieved
> with Ryu, Ken, Guile, etc. Sort of a prove their worth thing.
Actually...there's no better way for new characters to prove their worth
than against....OLD characters (dun dun DUUUUUUUN!!). Seriously,
though, think about it. How else were we going to find out whether or
not Three's New Generation were all that great in SF3? Enter Ryu and
Ken to teach these whippersnappers a thing or two...and they did teach
most of 'em. Mind you, not because Ryu and Ken were scrubby (though
that could be why Ibuki and Yun/Yang were better), but because the
designs of the other characters were NOT up to snuff.
Besides, why everybody gotta cut out characters? Don't nobody like big
parties anymore? Does "The more, the merrier" sound familiar? :) Yeah,
I know Ryu and Ken kicked everybody booty when SF3 first came out....but
hear me out. What if Capcom pulled a Namco like they did with Rival
Schools.....time release the old characters! You'd get about a good
week or so to learn the new characters before the worst old character
came out (hopefully, it wouldn't be easy to overlook something that
makes one character extremely powerful). Then, after about...two
months...here come good ol' Ryu and Ken. Guess who will be on the
losing end in the beginning this time?
Of course, this would mean that a LOT of new characters would be
needed...hopefully more than the returning old characters.
I'm sure you can see the potential of this idea. It all comes from
taking good ideas from other games in the past and impelenting them
properly.
Wishing you peace, love, and righteousness, it's.....
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Onaje Everett
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net |
|
|
| E-mail me for FAQs, files, and, of course, combos.
:) |
|
|
| Meaning- "The Sensitive One" Nicknames- "Fresh O.J.", "The
Juice" |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "I can do (not some...) ALL things through Christ, who strengthens
me." |
| -Phillipians
4:13 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
May the peace of Christ be with you.
Michael Basus
I feel weird about jumping in here but I'll do it anyways.
VGO Ken wrote:
>
> > Many of the same basic techniques apply to all characters (FB
> > motions, 2in1-ing, etc). This is not a problem, and I assume not
> > what you are recommending be changed.
>
> I didn't mean techniques. I meant character design as a whole. Guile, Ken, Ryu, all > characters that have been used to death, and a clean slate would be fitting to prove > that Capcom can re-create the previous success they achieved with Ryu, Ken, Guile, > etc. Sort of a prove their worth thing.
It kinda' depends on what characters you like or don't like. IMO, I
wouldn't mind it at all if Capcom released every game from now on with
Jedah and Vega in it, but there are probably people out there who would
hate it, just as I hate how every SF game has to have Ryu and Ken in it.
So the key is variety, some characters leaving and some returning, and
all in the context of the plot. This hasn't quite been happening,
though. The SF2 series never really explained what happened to all the
characters between SF2 and SF3, and it's annoying to have all these
characters with pasts and goals to disappear, and all these new ones
come out of the blue. And dumping nearly -all- the SF2 characters and
throwing in all these new ones plays havoc with the balance present in
their previous versions.
> >I assume you are referring to a given character's "basic strategies", like a Ryu > >FB/DP trap, etc. However, if this is what you meant, this is ridiculous. As is > >plainly obvious at any level of play beyond blatant scrub, the same tricks do not > >really work from one game to the next, and certainly not from one game *engine* to > >the next.
>
> I meant the characters themselves, not strategies. Make some new characters with > NEW infamous strategies, I'll be 2x as happy as bringing back an oldie. Not because > I'm a scrub, but because I would like to see Capcom *not* rely on an idea they > thought of 10 years ago for once. That's the problem. Keep accepting Capcom > repeating itself with slight change and you'll be given the same thing over and > over.
That's one point I'd agree on. It would be great to have some new
'infamous' strategy, but in all fairness, it's damned hard to think up
one (maybe give someone a much better version of Sean's HCF+K move with
little or no recovery time [although that might be too powerful]). And
companies in the creative industry tend to want to stay to the same
'tried-and-true' method rather than try something new that people may
not like, until the creative brains of the company force them to move on
(or falling revenues do). It's no reason to boycott new games, but it's
something the game companies should be more wary of (and that we may one
day get tired of and stop playing them [as opposed to boycotting them,
i.e., not playing it even though you'd want to]).
> >Thus *what* point?
>
> The "Clean Slate" policy is a better move for Cap.
>
> >You haven't given a single
> >damn reason, outside of something like "the kids want something new".
>
> No, actually, it's pretty simple. Old characters are getting tiresome, and
> they never change that much. In fact, they don't change anywhere NEAR as much
> as a new character (b/c the newbie is brand-spankin new). Thus, the experts
> have to learn someone completely new. This almost worked in SF3, if it weren't
> for some bad character design, bad gameplay, and Ryu and Ken.
As I stated above, if you ditch all the old characters and toss in new
ones, the balance is very likely to be thrown off (unless the game is
developed and tested for a loooong time). The original SF2 itself was
horridly unbalanced (E. Honda vs. Ryu/Ken? Ha. That'd have to be one
damned good Honda player). Also, it's not new characters as much as it
is new moves. SF3 used almost all recycled or slightly tweaked moves.
I would've liked it better if it kept everyone from SF2 and changed the
moves far more radically (though I'm not suggesting they actually do
that. Just to make a point).
> >Plain and simply: WHY would SF suck if Capcom did what I suggest?
>
> Why? Because it's basically the same thing served over and over on a silver
> platter that tasted good......and after awhile, it gets tiring. Saying "tweak
> ST" is like saying, "Capcom, please give us the same old". See, this is what
> Capcom probably wants. To take the easy way out by tweaking a current great
> game. I'm SICK of revised SF over and over again. I personally want to see an
> ORIGINAL SF that acheives ST status. Not another upgrade to ST, which, while
> probably being the best SF yet, would be completely unoriginal and an easy way
> for Capcom to "let us eat cake". Damn it I want a new game that gives us
> originality, greatness, and PROOF that Capcom can still make good, orignal
> ideas! Until then, I'll play ST, disappointed in Capcom's former greatness,
> now laziness.
The fact that a blatant rehash with only some tweaking isn't a good idea
isn't really the issue. There has to be SOME tangible change or else it
won't be accepted. Just like with Turbo; when it came out, all the
magazines were talking about how Capcom kept releasing the same game,
and lost the creativity that produced SF2 from SF. They basically
would've made the same revenue if they hadn't released Turbo at all and
waited for Super and ST (though not really, since all the arcades had to
buy the new version. The same amount of money would've been spent by
gamers on it). In other words, if they pull the same thing they did
with Turbo again, gamers will get tired of it. They need to develop
their characters more, throw in some new 'infamous' strategies again,
and change the characters and their moves to have a much more successful
game.
Overall, you can't divide SF manifestations into 'same old and slightly
tweaked' and 'all-new'. There are more factors that go into it, like
plot developments, character changes, etc, that need also be present for
a good successor.
-Mike
"But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong." -Dennis Miller
Jeffrey Paul Jarlett
In article <3514AC...@slip.net>, Michael Basus <mou...@slip.net> writes:
> I feel weird about jumping in here but I'll do it anyways.
>
> And dumping nearly -all- the SF2 characters and
> throwing in all these new ones plays havoc with the balance present in
> their previous versions.
True, and it is possible to add a move to a character, or tweak them, totally
redifing who they are.
For example, Honda from Super to ST.
Athena from KOF96 to KOF97
Talbain from DS1 to DS2 to DS3 (each version less skillful)
Kyo from KOF95 to KOF96
Ryu and Ken from Super to ST (both characters became much more interesting
and aggressive. IN fact, I hate Shotos in general, but I like ST Ryu and
Ken...)
and so on...
>
> That's one point I'd agree on. It would be great to have some new
> 'infamous' strategy, but in all fairness, it's damned hard to think up
> one (maybe give someone a much better version of Sean's HCF+K move with
> little or no recovery time [although that might be too powerful]).
IT would be. You're asking for Robert Garcia there...
> > Why? Because it's basically the same thing served over and over on a silver
> > platter that tasted good......and after awhile, it gets tiring. Saying "tweak
> > ST" is like saying, "Capcom, please give us the same old". See, this is what
> > Capcom probably wants. To take the easy way out by tweaking a current great
> > game. I'm SICK of revised SF over and over again.
Personally, I'd like a similar engine with new characters. Then again, the
Alpha engine would be fine if they took out airblocking,CC and fixed
normal move priorities
Just like with Turbo; when it came out, all the
> magazines were talking about how Capcom kept releasing the same game,
> and lost the creativity that produced SF2 from SF.
To put it mildly, most vidgame magazines are full of it.
Quanah S. Harjo
In article <35123ACF...@postoffice.pacbell.net>,
teve...@postoffice.pacbell.net wrote:
> Besides, why everybody gotta cut out characters? Don't nobody like big
> parties anymore? Does "The more, the merrier" sound familiar? :) Yeah,
> I know Ryu and Ken kicked everybody booty when SF3 first came out....but
> hear me out. What if Capcom pulled a Namco like they did with Rival
> Schools.....time release the old characters! You'd get about a good
> week or so to learn the new characters before the worst old character
> came out (hopefully, it wouldn't be easy to overlook something that
> makes one character extremely powerful). Then, after about...two
> months...here come good ol' Ryu and Ken. Guess who will be on the
> losing end in the beginning this time?
Yeah, Namco had the right idea. It's an arcade truth: There are just a
lot of folks who like secret characters because they're secret. Instead
of having one over-(used/powered) character hidden like Gouki, make a
large cast, make half of them time release, then meter them out to the
public. The suspense of stuff like this draws players (think Tekken 2's
initial hyper popularity), and doesn't make the designers feel that the
'hidden' character has to be a world-beater. New characters get time to
develop, and players who like the old characters GET the old characters.
> Of course, this would mean that a LOT of new characters would be
> needed...hopefully more than the returning old characters.
Or at least the same number. Of course, the 'new' characters couldn't
be entirely new...just new versions of the newer characters, just so
that players will have -some- series identity to work with. Stick
a couple of newer old characters in, like a revamped Sean, Ibuki, or
Sakura, along with totally new characters.
> I'm sure you can see the potential of this idea. It all comes from
> taking good ideas from other games in the past and impelenting them
> properly.
Nowadays, that's where ALL ideas come from...revision :)
eDANgelist
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