-DS- The Worst Character
The Overseer
DS characters, but I want to know who are the worst characters?
Who do you hate to play? In your opinion, who just really sucks?
I personally think Bishamon is the worst. His sword throw leaves
him completely open to attack. What do you think?
The Overseer
Quote of the week: "Come on baby leave some change behind, she was
a bitch but I don't care."
-Live
Lynch, Scott A.
actively). I might say Tolbein (most of his moves are very easy to
counter).
Chris Ozols
>
> OK all you Darkstalker fans, I've read about the best
>DS characters, but I want to know who are the worst characters?
>Who do you hate to play? In your opinion, who just really sucks?
>I personally think Bishamon is the worst. His sword throw leaves
>him completely open to attack. What do you think?
Bish? Weakest? Uhh, no. I like what Capcom did with Bish: Any Ryu
player who instinctively rolls to forward from fullscreen away gets
punished. I _never_ use the sword toss outside of 1/4 screen away
unless they're stupid enough to get caught with the spirit hold.
IMO, Raptor is the worst, but thats just because I haven't seen any
good Raptor players around here. But right now I just regard him as
HF Dhalsim w/o the fireball and w/ a decent air defense...
-Chris
"Welcome to your new home."
"Uhh, where's the TV?"
"TV is the devil's tool."
"Yeah. Where is it?"
Allen Kim
> OK all you Darkstalker fans, I've read about the best
>DS characters, but I want to know who are the worst characters?
>Who do you hate to play? In your opinion, who just really sucks?
>I personally think Bishamon is the worst. His sword throw leaves
>him completely open to attack. What do you think?
If you think that Bish's sword throw should be used as often as Demitri's
fireball, you're likely to get nailed very easily. On the other hand, if the
sword hits, LOOK OUT! Here comes the Storm Wind! (Actually, Dash 'n Slash is
more like it.)
Actually, I personally think that Lord Raptor and Anakaris are two of the
weaker characters, and I say that with reservation, since the characters in DS
are very well balanced compared to all of the older SF2 versions.
- Allen "Ninja" Kim
Kenichiro Tanaka
user The Over...@SEMOVM.SEMO writes:
> OK all you Darkstalker fans, I've read about the best
>DS characters, but I want to know who are the worst characters?
>Who do you hate to play? In your opinion, who just really sucks?
>I personally think Bishamon is the worst. His sword throw leaves
>him completely open to attack. What do you think?
Nuh huh. Bishamon is awesome. He's kind of like a slow Vega (or a fast
Dhalsim)--it's hard as hell to get in on him because of that outrageous
reach. Unlike Dhalsim and Vega though, his sword can't be DPed (or
whatever), which makes him very annoying at long range. He doesn't need
to use the sword throw too much--he just stays on the ground and pokes
at his opponent with crouching thrusts.
Ken
Allen Klein
>In article <9NOV1994...@rosie.uh.edu>, st...@rosie.uh.edu (Lynch, Scott A.) writes...>[...]
>BUT his little wolf charges _always_ (thus far as I've seen) left
>him _very_ open when blocked, and it's blocked alot. Still, if you
>[...]
Try using the jab versions.
--
"callous frigid chill..."
-----------= Jamie Klein =--------------------= yan...@tiac.net =---------
"...nothing left to kill" - Metallica
Allen Klein
>
>
>I personally think Bishamon is the 2nd best character.
>My rankings, thusfar, would be: (1) Anakaris (2)Bishamon (3) Dimitri (4)Victor
> (5)Rikuo (6)Sasquatch (7)Morrigan (8) Talbain (9) Felicia (10) Raptor
Cool! My fave is last!
Although nobody will believe me at this point, I *honestly* used DJ quite
a bit in SSF2. (before he became da Jamaican Nightmere he is now)
I don't really care that my fav character is getting dissed, but I *do*
think that Victor is way over-rated here. Gamest put him last by a huge
margin...
RPM
>> OK all you Darkstalker fans, I've read about the best
>>DS characters, but I want to know who are the worst characters?
>>Who do you hate to play? In your opinion, who just really sucks?
>>I personally think Bishamon is the worst. His sword throw leaves
>>him completely open to attack. What do you think?
>>
>> The Overseer
Bishamon? Naw. He's damn nasty. Long range, great angles
of attack, emergency uppercut, and not a shabby supermove either.
His _only_ weakness is his sword throw recovery, but then
you _have_ to give him some weakness.
>actively). I might say Tolbein (most of his moves are very easy to
>counter).
Talbain... what to say...
his best asset is his defense. His little slash kick is very reliable.
BUT his little wolf charges _always_ (thus far as I've seen) left
him _very_ open when blocked, and it's blocked alot. Still, if you
try to work _without_ using those stupid beast rushes, you'll do
much better. Besides, the guy naturally ducks fireballs, and that's cool.
-rpm
Matthew A Wallace
>>> OK all you Darkstalker fans, I've read about the best
>>>DS characters, but I want to know who are the worst characters?
>>>Who do you hate to play? In your opinion, who just really sucks?
>>>I personally think Bishamon is the worst. His sword throw leaves
>>>him completely open to attack. What do you think?
>>>
>>> The Overseer
I personally think Bishamon is the 2nd best character.
My rankings, thusfar, would be: (1) Anakaris (2)Bishamon (3) Dimitri (4)Victor
(5)Rikuo (6)Sasquatch (7)Morrigan (8) Talbain (9) Felicia (10) Raptor
This is pretty irrelevent between 4 and 7. 4-7 are almost interchangeable.
Only Anakaris, Bishamon, and Dimitri seem to be able to just about destroy
most of the others. And I may be ranking Sasquatch a little low...
-Matt
Matthew A Wallace
In article <3a0eb6$i...@sundog.tiac.net> yan...@max.tiac.net (Allen Klein) writes:
>In article <39v2ks$5...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> mwal...@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Matthew A Wallace) writes:
>>
>>
>>I personally think Bishamon is the 2nd best character.
>>My rankings, thusfar, would be: (1) Anakaris (2)Bishamon (3) Dimitri (4)Victor
>> (5)Rikuo (6)Sasquatch (7)Morrigan (8) Talbain (9) Felicia (10) Raptor
>
>Cool! My fave is last!
>
>Although nobody will believe me at this point, I *honestly* used DJ quite
>a bit in SSF2. (before he became da Jamaican Nightmere he is now)
>
>I don't really care that my fav character is getting dissed, but I *do*
>think that Victor is way over-rated here. Gamest put him last by a huge
>margin...
Sheesh. Gamest-- there's a real source of info. Not really, though.
Some obvious Victor strong points: jumping forward from hell. Fireball
invincibility. Huge Standard. Absolutely monstrous (1/3 damage) throws.
Anyone who put victor last would have to be out of their mind.
-Matt
Allen Klein
I'm not going to argue with you. If I'm lucky, I play once a week and
generally lose to Demitri scrubs. (ie - I don't know shit about char
balance) ^_^
However, Gamest is THE source for arcade info. Really, though.
SF2 Freak
: However, Gamest is THE source for arcade info. Really, though.
Of course, I belive best/worst character is an opinion. Yes you can form a
better opinion the more you are expierence, as Gamest is, but it is still an
opinion.
--
|David Wright - sf2f...@vt.edu |"Anyone who opposes |
| dawr...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu | me will be destroyed!" |
|Homepage - http://csugrad.cs.vt.edu/~dawright | - M. Bison |
Matthew A Wallace
In article <3a49g6$k...@sundog.tiac.net> yan...@max.tiac.net (Allen Klein) writes:
>
>I'm not going to argue with you. If I'm lucky, I play once a week and
>generally lose to Demitri scrubs. (ie - I don't know shit about char
>balance) ^_^
>
>However, Gamest is THE source for arcade info. Really, though.
>
>--
>"callous frigid chill..."
>-----------= Jamie Klein =--------------------= yan...@tiac.net =---------
> "...nothing left to kill" - Metallica
No. The net is THE source for arcade info. You pick a game, and there's
no a thing that a magazine could tell you that someone here couldn't
have told you weeks or months before, and usually, there's some stuff
we know here, that the mags will never know.
Example: The Gamepro TSSF2 Ratings. Pathetic Tomo-Talk. And very wrong...
-Matt
Kenichiro Tanaka
>>However, Gamest is THE source for arcade info. Really, though.
>>
>>--
>>"callous frigid chill..."
>>-----------= Jamie Klein =--------------------= yan...@tiac.net =---------
>> "...nothing left to kill" - Metallica
>
>No. The net is THE source for arcade info. You pick a game, and there's
>no a thing that a magazine could tell you that someone here couldn't
>have told you weeks or months before, and usually, there's some stuff
>we know here, that the mags will never know.
Actually, I've seen a lot of stuff in Gamest that hasn't been mentioned
on the net.
Ken
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Um...like what? Examples please. SF2 examples would be nice, since not
everyone here gives a hoot about other games.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Allen Klein
>
>In article <3a49g6$k...@sundog.tiac.net> yan...@max.tiac.net (Allen Klein) writes:
>>However, Gamest is THE source for arcade info. Really, though.
>No. The net is THE source for arcade info. You pick a game, and
there's
>no a thing that a magazine could tell you that someone here couldn't
>have told you weeks or months before, and usually, there's some stuff
>we know here, that the mags will never know.
>Example: The Gamepro TSSF2 Ratings. Pathetic Tomo-Talk. And very wrong...
Gamepro _IS NOT_ Gamest. I can't read Japanese, but I'm pretty sure
that, as a source of hard-core info, it is superior to a.g.sf2 and
r.g.v.a. (Of course, fj.r.g.v.a is a different story :-)
Time line:
0 months -- Gamest Prints Info
2 months -- Someone posts info on r.g.v.a.
3 months -- US magazines get it
Example: The Blanka forward hop tick. Gamest ran it early July.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Allen Klein <yan...@max.tiac.net> wrote:
>In article <3a638e$i...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> mwal...@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Matthew A Wallace) writes:
>>
>>In article <3a49g6$k...@sundog.tiac.net> yan...@max.tiac.net (Allen Klein) writes:
>>>[...]
>>>However, Gamest is THE source for arcade info. Really, though.
>>>[...]
>>No. The net is THE source for arcade info. You pick a game, and
>there's
>>no a thing that a magazine could tell you that someone here couldn't
>>have told you weeks or months before, and usually, there's some stuff
>>we know here, that the mags will never know.
>>Example: The Gamepro TSSF2 Ratings. Pathetic Tomo-Talk. And very wrong...
>
>Gamepro _IS NOT_ Gamest. I can't read Japanese, but I'm pretty sure
>that, as a source of hard-core info, it is superior to a.g.sf2 and
>r.g.v.a. (Of course, fj.r.g.v.a is a different story :-)
>
>Time line:
>0 months -- Gamest Prints Info
>2 months -- Someone posts info on r.g.v.a.
>3 months -- US magazines get it
>
>Example: The Blanka forward hop tick. Gamest ran it early July.
>
This is a bogus example. People were talking about this tick right
here on a.g.sf2 when Turbo was still _BETA_TESTING_.
You seem to have this pro-Japanese bias with regards to SF2. Why is this?
There is NO reason why new info about sf2 should come out in Japan first.
If you want an example of Gamest screwing up, they rated T-Hawk as #1
in SSF2. T-Hawk?! That's not to say that Gamest isn't a good mag (which I
can't comment on, since I can't read Japanese), but I seriously doubt that
it's a better source of info than the net. The simple fact that it's a
publication gives Gamest a 1 to 2 month lag time on new info.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Matthew A Wallace
In article <3a6q9h$1...@sundog.tiac.net> yan...@max.tiac.net (Allen Klein) writes:
>In article <3a638e$i...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> mwal...@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Matthew A Wallace) writes:
>>
>>In article <3a49g6$k...@sundog.tiac.net> yan...@max.tiac.net (Allen Klein) writes:
>>>[...]
>>>However, Gamest is THE source for arcade info. Really, though.
>>>[...]
>>No. The net is THE source for arcade info. You pick a game, and
>there's
>>no a thing that a magazine could tell you that someone here couldn't
>>have told you weeks or months before, and usually, there's some stuff
>>we know here, that the mags will never know.
>>Example: The Gamepro TSSF2 Ratings. Pathetic Tomo-Talk. And very wrong...
>
>Gamepro _IS NOT_ Gamest. I can't read Japanese, but I'm pretty sure
>that, as a source of hard-core info, it is superior to a.g.sf2 and
>r.g.v.a. (Of course, fj.r.g.v.a is a different story :-)
>
>Time line:
>0 months -- Gamest Prints Info
>2 months -- Someone posts info on r.g.v.a.
>3 months -- US magazines get it
>
>Example: The Blanka forward hop tick. Gamest ran it early July.
>
Obscure tidbits can show up anywhere at any time. Around here, we
discover things all the time that never show up on R.G.V.A, at all.
And there is nothing important that Gamest knows that I didn't know
first. Why? Well, mostly because when you put 6-8 top players in
weekly competition, they find things. And when you take a player or
two and give them their own game, they find tons of stuff.
Most importantly, things like strategies and rankings are almost
invariably wrong when posted in a magazine, whether Gamest or
Gamepro.
I'd like to hear their rankings for Turbo, and perhaps some strategies.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.
-Matt
Zass
Thomas Calvin Cannon <ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>If you want an example of Gamest screwing up, they rated T-Hawk as #1
>in SSF2. T-Hawk?! That's not to say that Gamest isn't a good mag (which I
Do not_ underestimate T-Hawk, especially in SSF2.
>Tom Cannon
>ink...@leland.stanford.edu
-Julien
--
Stream polished pebbles
In the mind's still garden pool
Lanzer
Well SF2T is so old that Gamest had stopped articles on it since
their October issue. But on newer games like DarkStalkers (which many
of use give much more than a hoot about) things like correct motions on
SC, exact ways to block interrupt and normal move interrupt are all from
Gamest from what I know.
Who came up with the way to get Gouki (Akuma) anyways?
The net is the place where we share and discuss what we know, but
there still need an origin for the info in the first place. So why can't
Gamest be one of them anyways?
--
--=/ Name: Derek Liu |=| Handle: Lanzer |=| E-mail: de...@unixg.ubc.ca \=--
--=| Suffering at: the British Columbia Institute of Technology, Canada.|=--
--=| Hobbies: Anime, Manga, SF2, SNES & VJAC. Author of SFLIUv2.10 too! |=--
--=\ More news, more news: SFLIU V2.10's out! Now with Vega! (wooo...) /=--
Kenichiro Tanaka
>>Actually, I've seen a lot of stuff in Gamest that hasn't been mentioned
>>on the net.
>>
>
>Um...like what? Examples please. SF2 examples would be nice, since not
>everyone here gives a hoot about other games.
Like the fact that Honda's uchio throw motion can be stored, like his
SC. Like the fact that there are many moves (Guile and Balrog's
crouching fierces, et al) that can be interrupted by SCs but not by
standard special moves. Like the fact that you can do Balrog's SC with a
kick to get uppercuts, or hit a kick button during the SC to change it
into uppercuts. Like Ryu's 10 hit SC combo. Like Guile's knee hop kick
(just kidding). I'm not saying people don't know about these things,
just that I've never seen any talk about them on the net.
Ken
SF2 Freak
: In article <3a6rsk$3...@nntp.stanford.edu>,
: >Tom Cannon
: >ink...@leland.stanford.edu
: -Julien
Sure, he can a threat, but when it comes down to it, he has problem with anyone
with a fireball and then some. You need a good T. Hawk to beat an above
average ken/ryu/guile/chun/etc.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Zass <j...@ATHENA.MIT.EDU> wrote:
>In article <3a6rsk$3...@nntp.stanford.edu>,
>Thomas Calvin Cannon <ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>
>>If you want an example of Gamest screwing up, they rated T-Hawk as #1
>>in SSF2. T-Hawk?! That's not to say that Gamest isn't a good mag (which I
>
>Do not_ underestimate T-Hawk, especially in SSF2.
>
We all know you love T-Hawk Julien, but not even you would rate him #1.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Philip John Stroffolino
Excerpts from netnews.alt.games.sf2: 14-Nov-94 Re: -DS- The Worst
Character by Matthew A Wallace@ucscb.
> Obscure tidbits can show up anywhere at any time. Around here, we
> discover things all the time that never show up on R.G.V.A, at all.
> And there is nothing important that Gamest knows that I didn't know
> first. Why? Well, mostly because when you put 6-8 top players in
> weekly competition, they find things. And when you take a player or
> two and give them their own game, they find tons of stuff.
You really ought to check out the magazine before you stick your foot
any further down your throat :-)
Thomas Calvin Cannon
>ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) writes:
>
>>In article <Yile2p200...@andrew.cmu.edu>,
>>Kenichiro Tanaka <kt...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>Actually, I've seen a lot of stuff in Gamest that hasn't been mentioned
>>>on the net.
>>>
>
>>Um...like what? Examples please. SF2 examples would be nice, since not
>>everyone here gives a hoot about other games.
>
> Well SF2T is so old that Gamest had stopped articles on it since
>their October issue. But on newer games like DarkStalkers (which many
>of use give much more than a hoot about) things like correct motions on
>SC, exact ways to block interrupt and normal move interrupt are all from
>Gamest from what I know.
Lanzer, you know I posted how to interrupt normal moves over 3 months ago.
> Who came up with the way to get Gouki (Akuma) anyways?
> The net is the place where we share and discuss what we know, but
>there still need an origin for the info in the first place. So why can't
>Gamest be one of them anyways?
Well, it can be. However, Gamest's only two advantages over the net
are that: 1) it can get info directly from Capcom, and 2) it has access
to a machine where they can isolate and test features. The net's biggest
advantage is that has a hundred times the playtesters that Gamest has,
and that we're all usually bickering and trying to prove each other wrong.
So, for early info and intersting 'wrinkles' Gamest might have an edge.
Even in this regard, the net has consistently beaten Gamest. Blanka's
hop tick, and storable SCs are two examples.
However, in regards to down-and-dirty strategy, the net simply cannot
be beaten. There are simply too many people playing too many different
strategies. Since I consider this much more important than wrinkles
and early info about the game, I'd rate the net as superior.
Of course, the net's effectiveness goes down _drastically_ for the
less popular games, so Gamest probably is the DS source of choice.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Sorry, but with regards to SF2, he's probably right, almost to a fault.
1) The top four players in the US are concentrated in Matt's local area.
These players are (in order) Thomas Osaki, Jason Nelson, Graham Wolfe,
and Alex Wolfe. These four are _significantly_ better than anyone I've
ever seen. They're just in another league. For a reference, I've
played in Sunnyvale, NY, Chicago, San Fransisco, and New Mexico for
significant amounts of time (not just a visit). Yes, I do get around,
and yes, that is every time zone in the continental US (anyone else
done this? =)
2) Graham was recently loaned a SSF2T machine by Gamepro so he could complete
the strategy guide he was writing for them. During this time he
discovered Balrog's rushing punch + SC trick, along with some other
stuff. Has Gamest published this Balrog trick yet? I believe that
Jason Nelson won a SSF2 in the national Slam-Masters tournament.
So, for other stuff, Gamest probably does have the edge. But on sf2,
IMHO the net is king.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Allen Klein
This argument won't really go anywhere because neither of us can read
Japanese.
and, of course, the folks who can read Japanese are too busy posting the
latest DS info, SS2 moves, X-Men pics, etc, etc... ^_^
Allen Klein
>
>In article <3a6q9h$1...@sundog.tiac.net> yan...@max.tiac.net (Allen Klein) writes:
>>In article <3a638e$i...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> mwal...@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Matthew A Wallace) writes:
>>>
>>>In article <3a49g6$k...@sundog.tiac.net> yan...@max.tiac.net (Allen Klein) writes:
>>>>[...]
>And there is nothing important that Gamest knows that I didn't know
>first.
Hehe. Ok, pal... if you say so.
Allen Klein
>In article <Qilu_2W00...@andrew.cmu.edu>,
>Philip John Stroffolino <ps...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>>>[Gamest]
>>
>>Excerpts from netnews.alt.games.sf2: 14-Nov-94 Re: -DS- The Worst
>>Character by Matthew A Wallace@ucscb.
>
>
>1) The top four players in the US are concentrated in Matt's local area.
> These players are (in order) Thomas Osaki, Jason Nelson, Graham Wolfe,
> and Alex Wolfe. These four are _significantly_ better than anyone I've
> ever seen. They're just in another league. For a reference, I've
> played in Sunnyvale, NY, Chicago, San Fransisco, and New Mexico for
> significant amounts of time (not just a visit). Yes, I do get around,
> and yes, that is every time zone in the continental US (anyone else
> done this? =)
Ok, I know this is going to perpetuate the notion that I have a blind
Japanese bias (and rightfully so, I guess :-), but I personally believe the
whole Sunnyvale posse would get destroyed in Japan.
Why? Unlike the US which has been polluted by crap like MK, Japan's
video game market has remained "pure." In the US, a few scattered
arcades still have a good SF2 base, but it is no longer a top seller. In
Japan, SF2 was a huge hit early on (like here) and it retained popularity
over the years (not like here).
>
>[...]
>
>So, for other stuff, Gamest probably does have the edge. But on sf2,
>IMHO the net is king.
Have you even SEEN the magazine?
Allen Klein
>In article <deliu.7...@unixg.ubc.ca>, Lanzer <de...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
>>ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) writes:
>>
>>>In article <Yile2p200...@andrew.cmu.edu>,
>>>Kenichiro Tanaka <kt...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Actually, I've seen a lot of stuff in Gamest that hasn't been mentioned
>>>>on the net.
>>>>
>>
>>>Um...like what? Examples please. SF2 examples would be nice, since not
> >>everyone here gives a hoot about other games.
>>
> > Well SF2T is so old that Gamest had stopped articles on it since
>>their October issue. But on newer games like DarkStalkers (which many
>>of use give much more than a hoot about) things like correct motions on
> >SC, exact ways to block interrupt and normal move interrupt are all from
>>Gamest from what I know.
>
>Lanzer, you know I posted how to interrupt normal moves over 3 months ago.
is a picture of Talbain doing a three hit standing jab - standing fierce
combo. Of course, we still appreciate your post because I couldn't read
the surrounding text.
Besides, Lanzer's most recent Gamest scoop did indeed expand on the concept.
>> The net is the place where we share and discuss what we know, but
>>there still need an origin for the info in the first place. So why can't
>>Gamest be one of them anyways?
>
>Well, it can be. However, Gamest's only two advantages over the net
>are that: 1) it can get info directly from Capcom, and 2) it has access
>to a machine where they can isolate and test features. The net's biggest
>advantage is that has a hundred times the playtesters that Gamest has,
>and that we're all usually bickering and trying to prove each other wrong.
>
But the Japanese player base is 100 times the size of "the net." Gamest
involvment (at least coverage of) Japanese tournaments means they have
access to significantly more hard-core info than us netters.
>So, for early info and intersting 'wrinkles' Gamest might have an edge.
>Even in this regard, the net has consistently beaten Gamest. Blanka's
>hop tick, and storable SCs are two examples.
>
Shit, I thought that thing hadn't been mentioned on the net until later
in the summer.
>However, in regards to down-and-dirty strategy, the net simply cannot
>be beaten. There are simply too many people playing too many different
>strategies. Since I consider this much more important than wrinkles
>and early info about the game, I'd rate the net as superior.
>
Have you been reading those 20-pages of kanji-laden text a month for all
those years? Once again you are making a judgement without any knowledge
re: the actual content of the mag.
JK
SF2 Freak
: re: the actual content of the mag.
a Japanse course (yes I did in High School) and a Kanji dictionary and you
can pretty much translate anything you want. Of course, I myself have pretty
much totally forgot how to read/write/speak japanese, but for ones who get
gamest or something and have something to practice on, well, it's not too
hard. How do you think anyone plays the Japanse Final Fantasy 6 and can
acutally get most of the story and complete the game (yes, I know of a person
who is definately NOT japanses who did this).
Philip John Stroffolino
Excerpts from netnews.alt.games.sf2: 14-Nov-94 Re: -DS- The Worst
Character by Thomas Calvin Cannon@lel
> >> And there is nothing important that Gamest knows that I didn't know
> >> first. Why? Well, mostly because when you put 6-8 top players in
> >> weekly competition, they find things. And when you take a player or
> >> two and give them their own game, they find tons of stuff.
> >
> >You really ought to check out the magazine before you stick your foot
> >any further down your throat :-)
>
> Sorry, but with regards to SF2, he's probably right, almost to a fault.
>
> 1) The top four players in the US are concentrated in Matt's local area.
> These players are (in order) Thomas Osaki, Jason Nelson, Graham Wolfe,
> and Alex Wolfe. These four are _significantly_ better than anyone I've
> ever seen. They're just in another league. For a reference, I've
> played in Sunnyvale, NY, Chicago, San Fransisco, and New Mexico for
> significant amounts of time (not just a visit). Yes, I do get around,
> and yes, that is every time zone in the continental US (anyone else
> done this? =)
Tom, I do not dispute that the players in Matt's area are wonderful
players. However, playing in an area of intense competition is not
conducive to discovering obscure tricks. One needs slack to experiment
without getting turned into bean paste.
Consider Mr. Alex Werner's trivia question series (especially the older
ones :) He discovered a number of fascinating tidbits while playing in
an area consisting almost entirely of scrubs.
> 2) Graham was recently loaned a SSF2T machine by Gamepro so he could complete
> the strategy guide he was writing for them. During this time he
> discovered Balrog's rushing punch + SC trick, along with some other
> stuff. Has Gamest published this Balrog trick yet? I believe that
> Jason Nelson won a SSF2 in the national Slam-Masters tournament.
Heheh... I'd bet a bundle that Gamest had_ published that trick. But
that's besides the point.
Gamest has published precise damage listings for characters, measures of
"toughness" for characters sustaining hits, detailed throw ranges
(including subtlties having to do with character height), walking speed,
and in general a lot of technical information that came straight from
Capcom Japan.
Say, does Matt know how Vega's crouching punch damage differs with and
without his claw? ^_^
One may argue that such things are insignificant in terms of relevance
to gameplay, yet surely you agree that the bulk of the effectiveness
attributed to the top Sunnyvale players has to do with insanely honed
reflexes, timing, and ability-to-be-unpredictable rather than higher
level knowledge of the inner workings of the game? I'm sure both you
and Matt "know" as much or more about the game compared to Thomas Osaki,
Mr. Nelson, and the Wolfes (brothers?), yet get beat by them just the
same, no?
Like it or not, SF2 is not chess, and the best player is rarely the
brightest or most creative. Hell, one could easily program a robot to
play "perfect SF2" and lay waste to any human. Many of the supposed
nuances and skills in "high level gameplay" are simply... guessing &
flawless mimickry.
> So, for other stuff, Gamest probably does have the edge. But on sf2,
> IMHO the net is king.
Joe Bob says check it out ^_^
phil
Robert A Morishige
> OK all you Darkstalker fans, I've read about the best
> DS characters, but I want to know who are the worst characters?
> Who do you hate to play? In your opinion, who just really sucks?
> I personally think Bishamon is the worst. His sword throw leaves
> him completely open to attack. What do you think?
jump RH-short-sword throw-reel in & uppercut or dash & slash
2 of these and enemy is dead...Bish is slow as all hell BUT what he does
have going for him is t6he fact that his moves do insane amounts of
damage and even more in combos...ex. if he touches you with a low jab, he
can chain it into a low strong and low fierce for a 3 hit combo that
takes of 1/3 your life...and the sword throw only leaves Bish open when
he misses it...when humans use Bish, they usualy use the jab sword throw
for a quick recovery of they miss and the usually only use it at 1/3
screen or less...he has a useful special (blue hand) that can even be
used as an air defense and his triple slash takes of oogles of life if he
gets a clean hit with all three slashes...kinda reminds me of classic
guile, touch the guy a few times and they're pretty much toast...
as for the worst charcter? none really, the chars in this game seem a lot
more balanced then Street Fighter for instance...but if you HAD to choose
a worst character, I would say it is...
--
WW WW WW AA NN NN DDDDD SSSSS | Finger my account,
WW WWWW WW AA AA NNNN NN DD DD SSSS | mor...@wiliki.eng
WWWW WWWW AAAAAAAA NN NNNN DD DD SSSS | (cont) .hawaii.edu
WW WW AA AA NN NN DDDDD SSSSS | for WAY more info!
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Allen Klein <yan...@max.tiac.net> wrote:
>In article <3a8cpm$7...@nntp.Stanford.EDU> ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) writes:
[snip]
>
> >> The net is the place where we share and discuss what we know, but
> >>there still need an origin for the info in the first place. So why can't
> >>Gamest be one of them anyways?
> >
> >Well, it can be. However, Gamest's only two advantages over the net
> >are that: 1) it can get info directly from Capcom, and 2) it has access
> >to a machine where they can isolate and test features. The net's biggest
> >advantage is that has a hundred times the playtesters that Gamest has,
> >and that we're all usually bickering and trying to prove each other wrong.
> >
>
>But the Japanese player base is 100 times the size of "the net." Gamest
>involvment (at least coverage of) Japanese tournaments means they have
>access to significantly more hard-core info than us netters.
This is a good point, but Gamest has to wait around for the next tournament
to get all the goodies. We (the net) have instant (literally) access to
any news that pops up.
>
>>So, for early info and intersting 'wrinkles' Gamest might have an edge.
>>Even in this regard, the net has consistently beaten Gamest. Blanka's
>>hop tick, and storable SCs are two examples.
>>
>Shit, I thought that thing hadn't been mentioned on the net until later
>in the summer.
>
Nope, it was discussed during early beta-testing along with Ryu's similar
tick invovling the low rushing punch. Info here tends to move in circles;
the people that missed it the first time will post it again later when they
'discover' it.
>>However, in regards to down-and-dirty strategy, the net simply cannot
>>be beaten. There are simply too many people playing too many different
>>strategies. Since I consider this much more important than wrinkles
>>and early info about the game, I'd rate the net as superior.
>>
>Have you been reading those 20-pages of kanji-laden text a month for all
>those years? Once again you are making a judgement without any knowledge
>re: the actual content of the mag.
>
Yep. True enough, but the people who say that Gamest is _the_ source of
info are doing the same thing. =) I'm just giving theoretical evidence
(oxymoron) to the contrary.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Allen Klein <yan...@max.tiac.net> wrote:
>In article <3a8dgc$8...@nntp.Stanford.EDU> ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) writes:
>>In article <Qilu_2W00...@andrew.cmu.edu>,
>>Philip John Stroffolino <ps...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>>>>[Gamest]
>>>
> >>Excerpts from netnews.alt.games.sf2: 14-Nov-94 Re: -DS- The Worst
> >>Character by Matthew A Wallace@ucscb.
> >
> >Sorry, but with regards to SF2, he's probably right, almost to a fault.
> >
> >1) The top four players in the US are concentrated in Matt's local area.
> > These players are (in order) Thomas Osaki, Jason Nelson, Graham Wolfe,
> > and Alex Wolfe. These four are _significantly_ better than anyone I've
> > ever seen. They're just in another league. For a reference, I've
> > played in Sunnyvale, NY, Chicago, San Fransisco, and New Mexico for
> > significant amounts of time (not just a visit). Yes, I do get around,
> > and yes, that is every time zone in the continental US (anyone else
> > done this? =)
>
>Ok, I know this is going to perpetuate the notion that I have a blind
>Japanese bias (and rightfully so, I guess :-), but I personally believe the
>whole Sunnyvale posse would get destroyed in Japan.
That's a reasonable expectation. Fortunately (or unfortunately for you)
several Capcom reps have commented that the best players in Sunnyvale
are on par with the best in Japan. Since there's been no direct comparison
(and believe me, I'm dying to see some), there's really no way to know.
>
>Why? Unlike the US which has been polluted by crap like MK, Japan's
>video game market has remained "pure." In the US, a few scattered
>arcades still have a good SF2 base, but it is no longer a top seller. In
>Japan, SF2 was a huge hit early on (like here) and it retained popularity
>over the years (not like here).
>>
Golfland isn't like this. The MK2 machines are collecting dust. NO ONE
plays them. The elite eight that I'm referring to play nothing but
SF2 (except for an occasional game of Saturday Night SlamMasters). So,
while I completely agree with your premise for the US in general, it does
not at all apply to this particular arcade.
Indeed, the players here may be so extrodinary _because_ they haven't
been seduced by MK and other games.
>>[...]
>>
>>So, for other stuff, Gamest probably does have the edge. But on sf2,
>>IMHO the net is king.
>
>Have you even SEEN the magazine?
>
Yep. I saw their premier issue on TSSF2. Sorry I can't remember the
month, but the cover had a painting of Ken DPing Zangief. From what I
gleaned from my kana and (incredibly small) kanji vocab, they listed the
following tricks...
Ryu: Rushing Punch (whiff) + throw
Double-hit air punch
Ken: Lots of kicks
Sagat: new standing short + FB combo
Chun: new neck forard
new interruptible kicks
Blanka: hop + bite
There was some other stuff. The point is that all the stuff in there
(that was in the pictures and that I could translate) was stuff that
we had found in early beta-testing.
Incidentially, I liked the issue a lot. I wish they'd make an English
version and publish it here. It would sure beat the 99% trash that's
published in the US. I just don't think that it's possible for a
monthy publication to compete with a dedicated newsgroup in terms of
advanced information.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Zass
SF2 Freak <dawr...@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> wrote:
>Sure, he can a threat, but when it comes down to it, he has problem with anyone
>with a fireball and then some. You need a good T. Hawk to beat an above
>average ken/ryu/guile/chun/etc.
Other way around. T-Hawk has major problems with non fireballers, but
when it comes to ken-ryu, T-Hawk wins! I have played Ken/Ryu's from
California to Massachussetts to Paris, and they have all gaped as I beat
them.
Guile beats T-Hawk because T-Hawk cannot repeat his trap outside of the
corner on him. If you do get Guile in the corner... That's how I
beat Thomas Asaki's Guile.
Guile used_ to beat Chun Li. In SSF2, T-Hawk could repeat the 360 trap,
or at least a version of it. He could walk up after a 360 and to a
standing short. The spacing was such that it was not quite a timed
short, but it hit in such a way that it would hit chun li out of her
upside down kick. The next standing short would be well timed, and a
360 would follow. Now, in ST, they've changed the spacing on the 360.
You can't get close enough to do this. Anyways, she has her stupid
triple kick.
Seriously, T-Hawk is not to be underestimated.
Zass
Thomas Calvin Cannon <ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>We all know you love T-Hawk Julien, but not even you would rate him #1.
Oh fine... #2?
Lanzer
>> Well SF2T is so old that Gamest had stopped articles on it since
>>their October issue. But on newer games like DarkStalkers (which many
>>of use give much more than a hoot about) things like correct motions on
>>SC, exact ways to block interrupt and normal move interrupt are all from
>>Gamest from what I know.
>Lanzer, you know I posted how to interrupt normal moves over 3 months ago.
Notice I said exact ways to do these things. It would be
surprising if people does not discover that they can interrupt normal
moves with other normal moves the first day they play. But how many
know that the success of interrupting normal move is to hit the button
before the hit mark vanish? And how about storing moves and calling
them back out to interrupt blocks? Those are what Gamest provides for
me. And that's my point. I don't care who Gamest rates the best
character is, nor do I care who the net rate each character, since we
live apart from each other and rules differ umong places.
>Well, it can be. However, Gamest's only two advantages over the net
>are that: 1) it can get info directly from Capcom, and 2) it has access
>to a machine where they can isolate and test features. The net's biggest
>advantage is that has a hundred times the playtesters that Gamest has,
>and that we're all usually bickering and trying to prove each other wrong.
Don't see your point here. Since we all know that there are
well over thousands of arcade players in Japan also, and Gamest don't
just have 2 guys sitting infront of arcades trying moves out.
>So, for early info and intersting 'wrinkles' Gamest might have an edge.
>Even in this regard, the net has consistently beaten Gamest. Blanka's
>hop tick, and storable SCs are two examples.
I'm not here to argue, but storable SCs are covered in Gamest
before the net announced it. Feel free to ask Ken on the date which
such info was released. The sad fact is that for guys like me to
obtain Gamest I'll have to wait for issues shipped by sea. But back
to where we started, I'm not here to say that Gaemst get their stuff
fast, I'm here to agree with Jamie that Gamest is the source for info.
>Of course, the net's effectiveness goes down _drastically_ for the
>less popular games, so Gamest probably is the DS source of choice.
Sounds just like what I said in the beginning...
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Well, yeah. 2) Takes care of this IMHO.
>> 2) Graham was recently loaned a SSF2T machine by Gamepro so he could complete
>> the strategy guide he was writing for them. During this time he
>> discovered Balrog's rushing punch + SC trick, along with some other
>> stuff. Has Gamest published this Balrog trick yet? I believe that
>> Jason Nelson won a SSF2 in the national Slam-Masters tournament.
>
>Heheh... I'd bet a bundle that Gamest had_ published that trick. But
>that's besides the point.
>
And so everyone's argument breaks down. Was it Allen who said that this
thread was completely pointless? I completely agree. Unless there's a lurker
out there with fluent Japanese, everyone's basic argument will eventually
break down into speculation about Gamest's content.
>Gamest has published precise damage listings for characters, measures of
>"toughness" for characters sustaining hits, detailed throw ranges
>(including subtlties having to do with character height), walking speed,
>and in general a lot of technical information that came straight from
>Capcom Japan.
Yeah, I credited them with this advantage.
>
>Say, does Matt know how Vega's crouching punch damage differs with and
>without his claw? ^_^
Probably not. He doesn't play Vega.
>
>One may argue that such things are insignificant in terms of relevance
>to gameplay, yet surely you agree that the bulk of the effectiveness
>attributed to the top Sunnyvale players has to do with insanely honed
>reflexes, timing, and ability-to-be-unpredictable rather than higher
>level knowledge of the inner workings of the game? I'm sure both you
>and Matt "know" as much or more about the game compared to Thomas Osaki,
>Mr. Nelson, and the Wolfes (brothers?), yet get beat by them just the
>same, no?
Wrong. We probably know more tidbits about the 'entire' game, but there's
no question whatsoever that they no more about their characters of choice.
The quintessential example is Thomas O.'s guile; he simply _never_
loses. Thomas only plays Guile now when he needs to win a match. He knows
all Guile's priorities, ranges, advantages, disadvantages, etc. It's
scary stuff. The same thing can be said about Jayson Nelson's Bison,
or Alex Wolfe's Dhalsim.
>
>Like it or not, SF2 is not chess, and the best player is rarely the
>brightest or most creative. Hell, one could easily program a robot to
>play "perfect SF2" and lay waste to any human. Many of the supposed
>nuances and skills in "high level gameplay" are simply... guessing &
>flawless mimickry.
>
>> So, for other stuff, Gamest probably does have the edge. But on sf2,
>> IMHO the net is king.
>
>Joe Bob says check it out ^_^
>
Sorry. Tried. Can't. Don't have a week to fiddle through a kanji
dictionary either. Have you checked it out?
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Thomas Calvin Cannon
>
>>> Well SF2T is so old that Gamest had stopped articles on it since
>>>their October issue. But on newer games like DarkStalkers (which many
>>>of use give much more than a hoot about) things like correct motions on
>>>SC, exact ways to block interrupt and normal move interrupt are all from
>>>Gamest from what I know.
>
>>Lanzer, you know I posted how to interrupt normal moves over 3 months ago.
>
> Notice I said exact ways to do these things. It would be
>surprising if people does not discover that they can interrupt normal
>moves with other normal moves the first day they play.
I did. =) Ok...second day, but who's counting.
>But how many
>know that the success of interrupting normal move is to hit the button
>before the hit mark vanish? And how about storing moves and calling
>them back out to interrupt blocks? Those are what Gamest provides for
>me. And that's my point. I don't care who Gamest rates the best
>character is, nor do I care who the net rate each character, since we
>live apart from each other and rules differ umong places.
Ok...this is a good point which I concede to Gamest. If you really don't
care about rankings and various, in-depth style, Gamest is the mag of
choice. To put it another way, if you want a detailed rule book, I
freely admit that the one Gamest provides would be far superior to any
net-collaborative effort. I doubt that the net could even agree on
what to include. =)
>
>>Well, it can be. However, Gamest's only two advantages over the net
>>are that: 1) it can get info directly from Capcom, and 2) it has access
>>to a machine where they can isolate and test features. The net's biggest
>>advantage is that has a hundred times the playtesters that Gamest has,
>>and that we're all usually bickering and trying to prove each other wrong.
>
> Don't see your point here. Since we all know that there are
>well over thousands of arcade players in Japan also, and Gamest don't
>just have 2 guys sitting infront of arcades trying moves out.
>
I'm just trying to get a feel what what group is better at what. Yes,
Gamest can poll all those Japanese, but they have to go out and ask them
first. Someone on the net can log in the day he finds something, and
you'll hear about it that night.
However, almost non of us have the clout to call up Capcom and start asking
about detailed features of the game.
>>So, for early info and intersting 'wrinkles' Gamest might have an edge.
>>Even in this regard, the net has consistently beaten Gamest. Blanka's
>>hop tick, and storable SCs are two examples.
>
> I'm not here to argue, but storable SCs are covered in Gamest
>before the net announced it. Feel free to ask Ken on the date which
>such info was released. The sad fact is that for guys like me to
>obtain Gamest I'll have to wait for issues shipped by sea. But back
>to where we started, I'm not here to say that Gaemst get their stuff
>fast, I'm here to agree with Jamie that Gamest is the source for info.
>
This is indeed regretable. It would be so nice if whatever company is
responsible for publishing Gamest started a sister-mag in the US. Put EGM
out of business real quick. Of course, they would need a team to review
and research games like MK, which is almost too much to ask of anyone. =)
>>Of course, the net's effectiveness goes down _drastically_ for the
>>less popular games, so Gamest probably is the DS source of choice.
>
> Sounds just like what I said in the beginning...
Yep...it is. I'm agreeing with you.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu
Kenichiro Tanaka
user Thomas Calvin Cannon@lel writes:
>Lanzer, you know I posted how to interrupt normal moves over 3 months ago.
Gamest published this in June or July, before DS even came out.
Incidentally (and I'm not making a case that the Gamest people are
gods), they are a bi-monthly mag, so their info tends to be pretty up to
date. Obviously, the information isn't spread as quickly as it is on the
net (the Akuma code being a great example), but it's close.
Ken
Brian Chan
>And there is nothing important that Gamest knows that I didn't know
>first. Why? Well, mostly because when you put 6-8 top players in
This is an incredibly general blanket statement you're making, Matt. I
can accept that you live in Sunnyvale, the mecca of SF2 down in the States.
I can accept that you can hold your own against the top US players. But
when you post stuff like this, along with your out-of-the-blue statement that
Capcom USA does all the character designs and all Capcom Japan does is
programming, I start to wonder.
If your knowledge is indeed so deep, why didn't *you* post about Honda's
storable Uchio Throw? I'd assume that would be a rather important piece
of info for a Honda player.
Have you even seen one issue of Gamest? Admittedly, my Japanese sucks
rocks, although Lanzer is fairly fluent in it. But if you confuse it
with the typical American mag-crap, like EGM, then my guess is that you
haven't.
I'll end this off now, since this is starting to sound like a flame, but
I think your vast knowledge of SF2 would be better taken if you didn't go
off on a tangent and spout these sort of things all the time.
Brian
Allen Klein
>In article <3a8sco$4...@sundog.tiac.net>,
>Allen Klein <yan...@max.tiac.net> wrote:
>>In article <3a8dgc$8...@nntp.Stanford.EDU> ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) writes:
>>>In article <Qilu_2W00...@andrew.cmu.edu>,
>>>Philip John Stroffolino <ps...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>[Gamest]
>>>>
>> >>Excerpts from netnews.alt.games.sf2: 14-Nov-94 Re: -DS- The Worst
>> >>Character by Matthew A Wallace@ucscb.
>>
>>Why? Unlike the US which has been polluted by crap like MK, Japan's
>>video game market has remained "pure." In the US, a few scattered
>>arcades still have a good SF2 base, but it is no longer a top seller. In
>>Japan, SF2 was a huge hit early on (like here) and it retained popularity
>>over the years (not like here).
>>>
>
>Golfland isn't like this. The MK2 machines are collecting dust. NO ONE
>plays them. The elite eight that I'm referring to play nothing but
>SF2 (except for an occasional game of Saturday Night SlamMasters). So,
>while I completely agree with your premise for the US in general, it does
>not at all apply to this particular arcade.
for SF2 folks. (or it was...switching to SS2 lately, I think :-(
>
>Indeed, the players here may be so extrodinary _because_ they haven't
>been seduced by MK and other games.
And NOBODY in Japan has been seduced by MK. :-)
>
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>So, for other stuff, Gamest probably does have the edge. But on sf2,
>>>IMHO the net is king.
>>
>>Have you even SEEN the magazine?
>>
>[...]
>Blanka: hop + bite
>
Whoa... have you been talking about the "hop-THROUGH and bite trick"
In the issue with 7.15 on the cover, there are some diagrams of Blanka
buffering the first hit of a standing headbutt into a forward hop and
doing either a combo or a bite on the other side of his opponent.
>
>Incidentially, I liked the issue a lot. I wish they'd make an English
>version and publish it here. It would sure beat the 99% trash that's
>published in the US. I just don't think that it's possible for a
>monthy publication to compete with a dedicated newsgroup in terms of
>advanced information.
>
Even with US mag's lead time, they could still swipe info from Gamest and
print better stuff than they do now. Then again, their readers wanna see
the latest fatalities...
Alex Werner
>no question whatsoever that they no more about their characters of choice.
>The quintessential example is Thomas O.'s guile; he simply _never_
>loses. Thomas only plays Guile now when he needs to win a match. He knows
>all Guile's priorities, ranges, advantages, disadvantages, etc. It's
>scary stuff. The same thing can be said about Jayson Nelson's Bison,
>or Alex Wolfe's Dhalsim.
>
So (obvious question) what happens when 2 of the above 3 characters
meet. they obviously can't _all_ never lose. And if Thomas O's Guile
actually beats both other characters, how come no one at Golfland
rates Guile highly?
--
Alex Werner | Math/CS | Haverford College
awe...@haverford.edu awe...@ralph.cs.haverford.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------
Faith may move mountains, but what's going to get this boil off my butt?
Allen Klein
>On 14-Nov-94 in Re: -DS- The Worst Character
>user Thomas Calvin Cannon@lel writes:
>Incidentally (and I'm not making a case that the Gamest people are
>gods), they are a bi-monthly mag, so their info tends to be pretty up to
Eh?
>date. Obviously, the information isn't spread as quickly as it is on the
>net (the Akuma code being a great example), but it's close.
>
Allen Klein
>On 16-Nov-94 in Re: -DS- The Worst Character
>> >Incidentally (and I'm not making a case that the Gamest people are
>> >gods), they are a bi-monthly mag, so their info tends to be pretty up to
>> ^^^^^^^^^
>>Eh?
>
>
=> bi-weekly
/me looks around nervously for the over-quoting (OQ) police.
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Zass <j...@athena.mit.edu> wrote:
>In article <3abvr9$j...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>, ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) writes:
[snip]
>|> Whoops...I wasn't very clear there. Thomas' Guile is a freak exception.
>|> No one has been able to play Guile (or any other character) with such
>|> precision. Maybe they're connected cosmically...maybe Guile came down
>|> from high and spoke to Thomas in a dream....I don't know. I guess
>|> it's like the Chargers this season.
>
>When I was there, I was much more impressed by the flawless ryu that this
>one guy played. Asian, wore a baseball cap, and had a black guy named
>Sean (Shawn) that hung around him taking second rounds, etc. Anyone know
>who this guy is. He has by vote IMHO for the best player there.
If it wasn't Thomas, then it was probably John Choi. John's probably
fourth or fifth ranked. The Bisons have completely taken over since this
last month. It's scary.
---
Tom Cannon
ink...@leland.stanford.edu