Ken/Ryu vs. Balrog
Matthew Brumley
I'm not sure, (perhaps I'm lucky) but what's the big deal w/ Balrog?
I'm sure this question is old hack to a lot of experienced Balrog players, but
as we don't have any really good Balrogs for me to play against here, I'm
wondering how he has claimed the title of Ryuslayer...
So far, I've been able to deal with all sorts of Balrog players, and I'm not
quite sure what they're doing wrong.
Lessee...
ya gotcha Defensive ones (TAP thru fireballs, but basically hang back),
Aggressive ones (jump instantly over my fireballs, combo, TAP thru fireballs
but still move around more than the Defensive ones... the cool ones, in my
opinion), the sorta in-between ones (they stay at that optimal distance, and
try to hit me with rushing punches), and the goofy ones who can't TAP thru
fireballs but they sure know when to charge at me (these are fun to play
against, too)...
Anyway, I'm sorta keen to the idea of how to play him perfectly (not PERFECTLY,
but real close! (heh), and can nuke the ryu/ken players, but then again, they
aren't AMAZING, either.
So, what's up? Why the hell is he considered to be THAT good!?
He's boring to play, too... >:)
Philip John Stroffolino
1) the ability to TAP through fireballs makes fireball trapping tricky at best
2) at medium range Ryu/Ken must anticipate Balrog's dashing punches
3) can counter Ken/Ryu hurricane kicks with a ducking fierce
4) can counter jump-ins with a variety of uppercuts
5) can easily hit Ryu/Ken even if they jump backwards
The biggest problems I have playing Balrog against good Ryu/Ken players are:
1) if they catch you with a combo, you're in big trouble (Ryu & Ken can
cut a dizzy opponent down to size very quickly) -- Balrog also happens
to be quite vulnerable to jump-in hurricane kick combos...
2) Ryu's hurricane kick is annoying if I'm charged up for a TAP with the
punch buttons (Ken at least can be hit out of his hurricane kick with
any ducking punch)
3) Throw-happy Ryu/Ken can be a problem (for me). If you get caught up
in a tickfest, Ryu/Ken's throws hurt considerable more than Balrog's
headbutt. Not a problem if you don't get knocked down - I usually end
up guessing a bit if an opponent jumps in while I'm getting up - Balrog
has no DP-type move. Balrog can also be tossed after/during charge
punches from too close, especially TAPs.
>He's boring to play, too... >:)
How dare you say such a thing! :^)
RPM
(man, I gotta find a new editor)
In article <MJB.93Au...@srl03.cacs.usl.edu>, m...@srl03.cacs.usl.edu (Matthew Brumley) writes...
>
>I'm not sure, (perhaps I'm lucky) but what's the big deal w/ Balrog?
>
>I'm sure this question is old hack to a lot of experienced Balrog players, but
>as we don't have any really good Balrogs for me to play against here, I'm
>wondering how he has claimed the title of Ryuslayer...
>
>So far, I've been able to deal with all sorts of Balrog players, and I'm not
>quite sure what they're doing wrong.
>
>Lessee...
>
>ya gotcha Defensive ones (TAP thru fireballs, but basically hang back),
If they're playing Ryu (not ken), that's a mistake....
>Aggressive ones (jump instantly over my fireballs, combo, TAP thru fireballs
ah. these guys are fun to watch, provided they are appropriately skilled...
>but still move around more than the Defensive ones... the cool ones, in my
>opinion), the sorta in-between ones (they stay at that optimal distance, and
>try to hit me with rushing punches), and the goofy ones who can't TAP thru
>fireballs but they sure know when to charge at me (these are fun to play
the best way to play any character, a fair mix of defense and psychotic rage
>
>Anyway, I'm sorta keen to the idea of how to play him perfectly (not PERFECTLY,
>but real close! (heh), and can nuke the ryu/ken players, but then again, they
>aren't AMAZING, either.
>
Here's a rundown:
a)his crouching roundhouse is longer than Ryu's.
-Ryu's often tend to try to stall me with short kicks.
I just walk up and Roundhouse 'em. Some try to bait me with the
short kicks to uppercut my roundhouse, so I just fake 'em out....
b)TAP
-not only does it go through fireballs (do vs. Ryu ONLY at close range!)
but there's this nifty trick I do which works great vs. anyone who's
never seen it before (as with any good trick). I go within their
sweep range after I knock them down and charge up for the dashing
punch. They lash out with the sweep, at which point I do a TAP,
which is invulnerable to his sweep, making him whiff air and
I come rushing in with the TAP and followup charging punch.
It's not a true off-the-fly combo but if it catches 'em
off guard, it has a good % of hitting, AND stunning.
c)Crouching Fierce
-Makes the HK ALMOST not worth doing, as it is easy to hit with this
move.....
d)land speed
-ever notice how fast the guy walks? comes close to Chun Li.
You can weave near and go in for the grab easily....
e)Ground to air defense
-standing strong, crouching fierce, charging kicks all hit just about
EVERYTHING Ryu can do in the air.........
>
>So, what's up? Why the hell is he considered to be THAT good!?
One more thing: it takes TIME to get used to a character. Just because he's
not easy to use doesn't make him useless. We here first thought
that classic Guile sucked, until someone took the time to get good at
him....
>
>He's boring to play, too... >:)
oh, like those endless Ryu/RYu Ryu/Ken Ken/Ken matches aren't??
:^p
- RPM
oh, and if you insist staying on familiar terms, just try Sagat instead....
Brian Odom
This sounds really good, but I still have a question. I know that Balrog
can counter most of what Ryu has (jump in, HK, TAP through FB), but what
does Balrog have to do to get close?? It seems like Balrog would win if Ryu
was played offensively, but what about defensive Ryu style? You know,
like Ryu vs. Honda. (FB, FB, sweep or FB, FB, DP). What can Balrog do to
get close to TAP or even roundhouse punch. Seems that all Ryu has to do is
just keep a distance with FB. Must be tough against Ken with the big
sweeping DP. Plus Ken/Ryu have punishing combos. Also, if Ken/Ryu were to
jump in, they would do a jump fierce rather than jumping roundhouse. Can
Balrog hit the jumping fierce CLEANLY? Jumping fierce, aerial HK seems deadly
for Balrog. just my $0.02...
--
|) . ,_ /\ | ,_
|)|`|(||| \/(|()|||
Matthew Brumley
Right... I guess that's what I was asking. Since I can't play too offensively
against Balrog, I play Ryu's defensive (bullshit) game.
Don't get me wrong, those were all perfect counters to offensive maneuvers, but
against Balrog, I play defensive. He seems (to me) to be designed in such a
way that he can get on the offensive easily, counter things quickly, and
still have an excellent defense. So, I try my darnedest to play defensive
against him (In any non-Balrog match, fireballs are a useful secondary weapon,
but against him, I figure, what the hell >:) (no live-by-the-fireball crap!)
Stay on the ground, counter everything with a DP or footsweep, and throw slow
fireballs. This is a crappy way to play, but I can't get thru their
defensive mode, so I don't let them get thru mine. Anyway, the Balrog players
I play against (read: not the god-like ones I've heard about) can't get thru
this mechanism, and I was wondering about anything they can do... (also, these
Balrog players hate throwing, so I have another thing up on 'em (heh)
The beginning of the round looks like it's VERY imp't in a Ryu vs Balrog
match. (I know, that sounds very naive) If I can prevent him from getting
into his HA!-I-can-TAP-thru-your-fireball-and-smack-you range in the beginning
of the round, I have a much easier time. Also, one successful jab DP, and
Balrog's in trouble...
I don't know...
It just SEEMS to me that Ryu can still beat Balrog. Even Ken, for that matter.
Oh yeah! While we're on the subject (sorta), what is Balrog's awesome-lookin'
roundhouse Elbow good for? (the computer counters my rushing punches w/ that,
but I was wondering if that works well...)
And, one last thing, how invulnerable are the stronger TAPs? I get the
impression that anything above 3 or 4 are completely vulnerable to attack...
I have some other questions (about some of Bison's normal attacks looking like
they have a little invuln. factor), but they can wait 'til later.
Eu-Ming Lee
>This sounds really good, but I still have a question. I know that Balrog
>can counter most of what Ryu has (jump in, HK, TAP through FB), but what
>does Balrog have to do to get close?? It seems like Balrog would win if Ryu
>was played offensively, but what about defensive Ryu style? You know,
>like Ryu vs. Honda. (FB, FB, sweep or FB, FB, DP). What can Balrog do to
>get close to TAP or even roundhouse punch. Seems that all Ryu has to do is
>just keep a distance with FB. Must be tough against Ken with the big
>sweeping DP. Plus Ken/Ryu have punishing combos. Also, if Ken/Ryu were to
>jump in, they would do a jump fierce rather than jumping roundhouse. Can
>Balrog hit the jumping fierce CLEANLY? Jumping fierce, aerial HK seems deadly
>for Balrog. just my $0.02...
Silly boy. Try playing Balrog and see what you come up with. Balrog is
best in those lamer no-throw areas where all they know is how to fireball
trap.
If Balrog is at extreme range, he can safely TAP1 through fireballs by
Ryu or Ken. Ryu has a hair of a chance of getting Balrog in a fireball
trap from long range. Here's how a SUCCESSFUL long range Ryu fireball trap
would go:
Blahrog is getting up, so Ryu hits him with a slow fireball when he gets
up. He walks a little closer, and throws another slow one. He walks a
little close, and has to fake doing a fireball. Meanwhile, Balrog is
closing in. Ryu throws a fireball. If he's lucky, Balrog does not
expect it, and gets hit. If he's not lucky (he's usually not, if I'm
playing Blahrog), Blarhog will TAP through the fireball and smack him,
or trade with a standing fierce.
If Ryu does not fake often enough, or does not walk closer after a blocked
fireball, it is trivial for Balrog to escape via TAPs through fireballs
or simply jumping over an expected fireball.
The point that Ken or Ryu can jump in with a flying fierce is moot.
Typically, if Ken or Ryu are in range to jump in on Balrog, Blahrog is
charged for the rushing uppercut. He nails K/R when they're at the
height of their jump. If they don't attack early, they get hit cleanly.
If they DO attack early, it's usually a double hit and Blahrog gets the
headbutt when K/R lands.
From your comments, it is obvious you are naive to the ways of Ken/Ryu
vs. Balrog.
--
Eu-Ming Lee (aka CyberGeek) eum...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
"I was shipwrecked with this frog who was constantly testing my faith. He
made outrageous demands. I ignored them. One day I strapped on my boat to
freedom and surfed into shore. He's not touching me anymore."
Eu-Ming Lee
>It just SEEMS to me that Ryu can still beat Balrog. Even Ken, for that matter.
No way. Balrog has the clear advantage. I'd say he should win 70-80% of
battles vs. Ken and 60-70% vs. Ryu.
>Oh yeah! While we're on the subject (sorta), what is Balrog's awesome-lookin'
>roundhouse Elbow good for? (the computer counters my rushing punches w/ that,
>but I was wondering if that works well...)
Smacking Ken/Ryu/Guile out of the air early when you're not charged for
the rushing uppercut, and when your fingers are charged for the TAP.
>And, one last thing, how invulnerable are the stronger TAPs? I get the
>impression that anything above 3 or 4 are completely vulnerable to attack...
It takes longer for the invulnerability to start. So you got to time your
TAPs earlier to get through the fireballs for the later TAPs.
>I have some other questions (about some of Bison's normal attacks looking like
>they have a little invuln. factor), but they can wait 'til later.
Exodus Ho
: Silly boy. Try playing Balrog and see what you come up with. Balrog is
: best in those lamer no-throw areas where all they know is how to fireball
: trap.
I am playing in an everything goes Arcade.. Is there any chance for Balrog
against tickers with his short throw range?
: The point that Ken or Ryu can jump in with a flying fierce is moot.
: Typically, if Ken or Ryu are in range to jump in on Balrog, Blahrog is
: charged for the rushing uppercut. He nails K/R when they're at the
: height of their jump. If they don't attack early, they get hit cleanly.
: If they DO attack early, it's usually a double hit and Blahrog gets the
: headbutt when K/R lands.
On this matter, when a Sagat is jumping in with a kick, I don't seems to be
able to hit with a running fierce/roundhouse.. What counter should i use?
Also, Ken jumping roundhouse from far seems to be quite immune to running
fierce/roundhouse too..
Cheers!
Exodus Ho
: Right... I guess that's what I was asking. Since I can't play too offensively
: against Balrog, I play Ryu's defensive (bullshit) game.
Well, Balrog can opt to play defensive against a defensive Ryu too.. :)
After a while, someone has to be offensive anyway..
: Stay on the ground, counter everything with a DP or footsweep, and throw slow
: fireballs. This is a crappy way to play, but I can't get thru their
: defensive mode, so I don't let them get thru mine. Anyway, the Balrog players
: I play against (read: not the god-like ones I've heard about) can't get thru
: this mechanism, and I was wondering about anything they can do... (also, these
: Balrog players hate throwing, so I have another thing up on 'em (heh)
Once Balrog get into Ken/Ryu foot-sweep range and start hovering around
that range, Balrog has a great chance of wining the match..
One reason about Balrog being Ken/Ryu killer is that, Ken/Ryu hasn't got much
effective way to keep Balrog from getting into their 'advantage region' :)
: The beginning of the round looks like it's VERY imp't in a Ryu vs Balrog
: match. (I know, that sounds very naive) If I can prevent him from getting
: into his HA!-I-can-TAP-thru-your-fireball-and-smack-you range in the beginning
: of the round, I have a much easier time. Also, one successful jab DP, and
: Balrog's in trouble...
What happen after 1 successful Jab DP ?
Cheers!
RPM
>Eu-Ming Lee (eum...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>
>: Silly boy. Try playing Balrog and see what you come up with. Balrog is
>: best in those lamer no-throw areas where all they know is how to fireball
>: trap.
>
>I am playing in an everything goes Arcade.. Is there any chance for Balrog
>against tickers with his short throw range?
SHORT THROW RANGE?????? you kiddin me, right??
Balrog has a) good grab range b) fair grabbing priority (imho)
>: The point that Ken or Ryu can jump in with a flying fierce is moot.
>: Typically, if Ken or Ryu are in range to jump in on Balrog, Blahrog is
>: charged for the rushing uppercut. He nails K/R when they're at the
>: height of their jump. If they don't attack early, they get hit cleanly.
>: If they DO attack early, it's usually a double hit and Blahrog gets the
>: headbutt when K/R lands.
>
>On this matter, when a Sagat is jumping in with a kick, I don't seems to be
>able to hit with a running fierce/roundhouse.. What counter should i use?
If he's jumping foreward, that shouldn't be a problem.
Charging kick, standing strong, crouching fierce, etc.
Jumping backwards, he's nearly impossible to hit.
>Also, Ken jumping roundhouse from far seems to be quite immune to running
>fierce/roundhouse too..
Geddoutahere. It is??? Hm. I gotta provoke the local K/R tribe to try this
on me, just to test it. Never happened to me.
Your technique, maybe? (NO insult meant! No offense meant! NOT a flame!)
I dunno. Just keep working on him. He's one of the most fun to work with.
>Cheers!
- RPM
Exodus
: SHORT THROW RANGE?????? you kiddin me, right??
: Balrog has a) good grab range b) fair grabbing priority (imho)
Ok.. Let's say he manage to 'counter-tick' with a Headbutt. But the headbutt
move does too little damange most of the time. Ken/Ryu player can afford
to risk being counter to attemp ticks anyway.
On this matter, which button give a better chance of throwing ? Strong or
Fierce?
: >On this matter, when a Sagat is jumping in with a kick, I don't seems to be
: >able to hit with a running fierce/roundhouse.. What counter should i use?
: If he's jumping foreward, that shouldn't be a problem.
: Charging kick, standing strong, crouching fierce, etc.
: Jumping backwards, he's nearly impossible to hit.
Charging Kick, Standing Strong, Crouching fierce will all result in trade
in favour of Sagat. Same when Zangrief is jumping in with fierce. It
seems impossible to hit them cleanly (or at least a trade in favour of
Balrog)
: >Also, Ken jumping roundhouse from far seems to be quite immune to running
: >fierce/roundhouse too..
: Geddoutahere. It is??? Hm. I gotta provoke the local K/R tribe to try this
: on me, just to test it. Never happened to me.
: Your technique, maybe? (NO insult meant! No offense meant! NOT a flame!)
Nah, my previous message is just some of my test result.. If silly Ken
jump in with roundhouse from far, it won't be hard to counter with a
stand fierce or crouching roundhouse anyway..
But i will like to find out when a 'charging' move can be use during such
ocassion..
Get a fren who play Ken to just jump up and down in the corner pressing
roundhouse at different timing.. See How often you could hit cleanly with
a charging move.
: I dunno. Just keep working on him. He's one of the most fun to work with.
If only we can perform those combo that Computer like so much.. (Double
running uppercut, the 3 Fierce combo.. etc.. ) :)
Cheers!
RPM
>RPM (st...@rosie.uh.edu) wrote:
>
>: SHORT THROW RANGE?????? you kiddin me, right??
>: Balrog has a) good grab range b) fair grabbing priority (imho)
>
>Ok.. Let's say he manage to 'counter-tick' with a Headbutt. But the headbutt
>move does too little damange most of the time. Ken/Ryu player can afford
>to risk being counter to attemp ticks anyway.
Little damage? Does fairly, imho.
Also, afterwards, Balrog can sneak behind before K/R lands so as to
disorient him and get another hit in, or a foreward punch - tick.
Also, if they know how to block a post-headbutt sneak behind
Balrog (you know what I mean by post-headbutt sneak behind, right????
I mean, ALL Balrogs in Houston do it. How about the rest of the nation?)
you can just FAKE going behind them, waver about a little and end
up in front of them instead for an easy hit/tick/combo whatever.
>
>On this matter, which button give a better chance of throwing ? Strong or
>Fierce?
I dunno if this means anything, but I always use STRONG and it works pretty
good.
>: >On this matter, when a Sagat is jumping in with a kick, I don't seems to be
>: >able to hit with a running fierce/roundhouse.. What counter should i use?
>
>: If he's jumping foreward, that shouldn't be a problem.
>: Charging kick, standing strong, crouching fierce, etc.
>: Jumping backwards, he's nearly impossible to hit.
>
>Charging Kick, Standing Strong, Crouching fierce will all result in trade
Charging kick? Tiger Knee, right?
Anyways, if your sagat likes jumping like a rabit, anticipate his second
jump and hit him early. As for the Tiger Knee, I always hit it
with a crouching roundhouse/fierce or just grab them.
On the downward part of the Tiger Knee, of course.
>in favour of Sagat. Same when Zangrief is jumping in with fierce. It
>seems impossible to hit them cleanly (or at least a trade in favour of
Eh?
>
>: >Also, Ken jumping roundhouse from far seems to be quite immune to running
>: >fierce/roundhouse too..
>
>: Geddoutahere. It is??? Hm. I gotta provoke the local K/R tribe to try this
>: on me, just to test it. Never happened to me.
>: Your technique, maybe? (NO insult meant! No offense meant! NOT a flame!)
>
>Nah, my previous message is just some of my test result.. If silly Ken
>jump in with roundhouse from far, it won't be hard to counter with a
>stand fierce or crouching roundhouse anyway..
>
>But i will like to find out when a 'charging' move can be use during such
>ocassion..
>
>Get a fren who play Ken to just jump up and down in the corner pressing
>roundhouse at different timing.. See How often you could hit cleanly with
>a charging move.
>
>: I dunno. Just keep working on him. He's one of the most fun to work with.
>
>If only we can perform those combo that Computer like so much.. (Double
>running uppercut, the 3 Fierce combo.. etc.. ) :)
3 fierce hit combo?
i think{
>
>
>Cheers!