Character Ranks (NP#51)
ba08118
In article <CB2Bu...@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v089...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Jer Horwitz) writes:
[Rankings deleted]
|> #1: Sagat ... Blanka ... Vega ... Ryu ... E. Honda/Dhalsim ... Ken
|> #8: Guile ... Balrog ... M. Bison ... Zangief/Chun Li
By "master" I'm assuming someone who has total control over that particular
character, never misses a move and always pulls off the most damaging combo when
is opponent is stunned. I'm also assuming they include throwing as a legal move
(not saying cheap throwing, they may but I'm not sure. I am fairly sure though
that regular they include).
|>
|> Questions in my mind: Sagat #1? Chun Li tied with Zangief? Bison second
|> worst?
Sagat's #1 mostly because of his power. Since the ratings are based on masters,
these are people who use power to offset speed. Also, the high and low tigers
are useful in tricking your opponent. Tiger Knee is a good way to escape the
corner from FB traps and has almost no delay afterwards so you can get another
move off just about the second you land. He also has a fairly long reach so keep
opponents away (hence the excellent rating against Zangief). Around here I do
play Sagat from time to time (esp against Ryu, and Ken if I'm feeling lucky)
against people my own skill and a little better (we're not masters but definately
better than average). Most of the time I usually win in those situations.
Against Guile, you can get him in a small FB Trap even across screen. If Guile
does try to jump in, the TU or roundhouse kick can knock him out of the sky (love
that range). Against anyone else, he has the abilities to trade blows to offset
damage done to him. He is an all around fighter that's fairly balanced against
everyone.
In spite of her FB, Chun Li is still primarily an up close in your face
character, like Zangief. Heep her away and you win. Also, since Honda and
Blanka got the new air moves, it's easier to knock her out of the air.
M. Bison is low because the only real damaging move he has is his throw. All his
moves have been toned down considerably since Classic and CE. (Anyone else have
an easier time beating Bison as the versions go on?).
|>
|> Why is Ryu ranked higher than Ken?
I usually pick Ryu against Ken players for the same reason as above, Power over
speed. Plus well timed HK give that extra little bit of counter-defense.
|>
|> Does this all seem too weird?
The only thing weird is that if you take 2 opponents on the chart (say Ken and
Guile) the numbers don't always add up to 10. (Ken has a 4 for Guile, and Guile
has a 5 for Ken) I guess the missing 1 are draws. :)
Actually though the one surprising thing for me is Chun Li so low. Then again
I'm not a master and can see why she would do poorly.
|>
|> Just FYI..
|>
|> - Jer
With the Super SF2 just around the corner, I think Sagat will still be a strong
choice to pick (provided they don't tone down his power), and that Bison will be
a little deadlier and harder to deal with. Looking at the list, the game does
seem fairly balanced, hopefully it will be a little more so in the next version...
- Axis
qe...@matai.vuw.ac.nz
> [Matches out of 10 likely to be won by YOU]
> You RKGCEDZB BVSM
> Total Ranking
> Ryu 56577455 4547 59 #4
> Ken 45466565 4546 56 7
> Guile 55556465 6345 54 8
> Chun 34554643 4455 47 11-12
> EHonda 34465666 7456 57 5-6
> Dhal 65644583 6645 57 5-6
> Zang 54466253 7415 47 11-12
> Blanka 55574775 4854 61 2
> Balrog 66473436 5444 51 9
> Vega 54766562 6567 60 3
> Sagat 66655595 6455 62 1
> MBison 34554456 4355 48 10
>
> #1: Sagat ... Blanka ... Vega ... Ryu ... E. Honda/Dhalsim ... Ken
> #8: Guile ... Balrog ... M. Bison ... Zangief/Chun Li
The most debateable being that Zangief is ranked at the bottom. I'm no
Zangief expert, but basically no-one plays Zangief here because he's too
cheap. He is the only character who can combo a blocking opponent ( for
want of a better word ) and his 2 larietts give him invulnerability from
most aerial attacks (and of course fireballs ). His Damage advantage means
he can trade OK, and SPD's still do a shit-load of damage.
And Chun Bitch also last.. Haven't they heard of the Short-SBK. I also
reckon that her Aerial Catch has been improved in priority. Her Jab
Fireball seems to be harder to jump over too ( I think it must be slower
then the others jab-fireballs ).
I'd agree with Sagat as being one of the better characters ( as well as
Blanka and Ryu ), but NO way would I have placed Vega or Dhalsim that high.
The matchups between Dhalsim and Honda have always been very imbalanced,
and on HF, I'd give Honda's faster Head ram ( and knockdown capability )
and Super Sumo Press ( and moving hands, and Damage advantage.. ) a more
likely advantage, like 70% or 80%.
Why has Guile been given 50% vs Ryu and Ken.? More like 30%, Especially
vs Ryu.
> Questions in my mind: Sagat #1? Chun Li tied with Zangief? Bison second
> worst?
I could possibly believe that Sagat could be the strongest (tiger-uppercutt
says it all really ), and Chun-bitch and Zangief have similar capabilities
(albiet alot better then 11th and 12th ). Bison's a Wimp now. His Flame
is still a pain in the Butt ( especially when you block, but he passes
through you and you get flamed for not blocking the other way ). The Computer
plays him quite well, but .. I'd rank him around third worst ( 10th out of
12 is third worst )
> Why is Ryu ranked higher than Ken?
I agree with this. All Ken has is the bigger Dragon. They both have very
effective aerial Cyclone Kicks, But Ryu has a better Ground Cyclone. It is
only against a few characters that the Big Dragon is ever worth doing..
Dhalsim, (who can never Jump fast enough), and Zangief (who needs to be
kept at bay ), and Sagat ( Tiger-uppercut beats Cyclone kick, but not Big
Dragon.. so it's harder for Ryu to Fireball-trap Sagat ).
> Does this all seem too weird?
Of course everybody will find something to disagree with. I Guess it's
pretty Accurate, and it's good to see a listing like this.. I've been
waiting for this to appear. Now that I see this.. I might have to
give Dhalsim a 2nd chance.. and abandon the bitch.
I'll always stick to Blanka ( I'd rank him #1 personally ). I'd also give
the Blanka-Sagat match to Blanka (60%) because Sagat can never do a high-
Tiger-shot ( Blanka walking forward walks right under them ) and Blanka's
speed jumping speed ( and Jab furball for quick ground movement ) puts
Blanka in charge of the match.
> Just FYI..
> - Jer
Thanx Jer. ( and the other person who placed the (incomplete) list in
before him ).
Simon Westenra.. Soon to be returning to Head Noogies and Yoga-Fire.
Philip John Stroffolino
Some of them seem very reasonable, but others... :^)
Phil "maybe I'm just ignorant" Stroffolino
Sarah Kay Ellerman
Vega is considered by far to be the best.....
Maybe James Macek wasn't such a fool after all.....
Merlin
The ranking here is totally preposterous. As any master of
the game knows, the most versatile characters are Guile and Ryu.
Guile has awesome defensive powers with his flash kick and
aerial throws, but also has a strong offensive attack with his
4-fierce combo. Any master Guile player can get the jumping fierce,
standing fierce, fierce sonic boom, and backfist if he hits with the
first attack. While beating a master Ryu or Sagat player is no easy
feat, there is no seriously lopsided match against him.
Ryu also is a well-rounded character. He has a very damaging
DP (more than Ken's for a single hit) and a devastating 3-hit combo of
neck-kick and double fierce DP. Not to mention the standard jumping
fierce, standing fierce, fierce fireball. Most importantly, however,
his hurricane kick does a great deal of damage and knocks the opponent
off the ground. Ken's does little damage, and you can punch him out
of it without fear of damage.
The rest of that ranking is totally BS. Sagat is the one of
the best characters in CA, but he has serious problems against Blanka
and Chun Li. Good players know what I'm talking about. So he's in
the top 3, but not the most versatile. His best move, of course, is
his tiger uppercut. Masters know how to do the tiger uppercut while
minimizing the chances of getting knocked out of it.
The rest is pretty standard: Zangief is in the top 6 (really!
if you ever played a master Zangief player, especially one who's
cheaping with a splat, crouching forward, SPD combo, you know what I'm
talking about. After all, I'm a Zangief player who gets his SPD with
over 95% accuracy). Unfortunately, he has serious problems against
blanka and e.honda.
Bison is still a good player out there, but the strategies are
different.
Finally, let me just say that Ken sucks. I don't know why
people still spend so much time with him. His single DP does little
damage, his fireballs & recovery is slow, and his HK sucks too (little
damage, doesn't knock the player down). He's great against a bad
player, since you can KO your opponent in just a few seconds, but
that's about it. I slaughter all Ken players with Guile.
I'm sure there are quite a few people out there who completely
disagree with me, but let me ask you: are you one of the best players
in your area or state? Have you been to a CES and beaten everyone?
My friends and I slaughtered Ken Williams at the CES in
Chicago (and got plenty of free Mortal Kombat T-shirts), not to
mention almost everyone else there. There were a lot of great players
there, however. Saw more Zangief masters there than ever before.
That's about it. In case you're wondering, I play Zangief and
Ryu first, and then Guile.
--
.................
En Pum Cho
Univ. of Chicago
Mathemagician
Chae Ho An
are blue in the face on who's the best character and who's the most
versatile character. Well... Let me throw in my two cents... No such
thing exists, at least to an appreciable degree. There are versatile
and skilled *players* however. There is a difference. As for CES and
whatever else you might have done. Okay, great, good job, and umm...
yeah, we care... really.
-Chae
--
E-mail: pala...@churchst.ccs.itd.umich.edu | finger pala...@umich.edu
cha...@engin.umich.edu | for more info. :)
CBR900RR + Yoshimura prep + Arai + full leather = Happy Chae :)
RPM
>
> The ranking here is totally preposterous. As any master of
>the game knows, the most versatile characters are Guile and Ryu.
Ryu? well, he is the most VERSATILE... but have you ever faced a
great SAGAT? Lemme tell you, it's scary. Guile Shoulda been in the
upper half, at least. MAYBE in the top 4. Master Blankas have fun
vs. Guile.
> Guile has awesome defensive powers with his flash kick and
>aerial throws, but also has a strong offensive attack with his
>4-fierce combo. Any master Guile player can get the jumping fierce,
>standing fierce, fierce sonic boom, and backfist if he hits with the
>first attack. While beating a master Ryu or Sagat player is no easy
>feat, there is no seriously lopsided match against him.
WHICH VERSION OF GUILE ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??
If it's classic, he's god.
if it's CE, he's still a contender.
if it's HF, jeez man, they gave everyone a better shot at him!
if only to make the game more interesting....
Honda: bellyflop hits Guile's crouching kicks
Chun Li: those who know how to use those fireballs and the
jumping-over-at-such-an-angle-so-that-Guile-misses-
the-Razor-kick-entirely-then-gets-thrown-as-he-lands
can put up a HELL of a fight vs. Guiles. Still in
his favor, but not as much as it used to be...
Sagat: his punches, his kicks, his freakin' POWERFULL upperccuts
which even the game up with just one hit.....
His only weakness is his long post-fireball freeze,
which, if he's not carefull (as any alleged master
should be) he'll be slaughtered because if it.
Ryu: Do I really need to say?
Vega: If you haven't played a good Vega (and I know how all
of you out there are SOOO unwilling to try anything else
but K/R) you'll never understand how this matchup leans in
his favor. Slides that go quickly and Big reach do it
for him. His slide and foreward kick can hit Guile's
kicks. his roll attack can be used to fake a razor
kick outta guile if done early and far enough. His speed?
jeez, the guy is a flea on steroids!
I could go on and on and on and on.....
> Ryu also is a well-rounded character. He has a very damaging
>DP (more than Ken's for a single hit) and a devastating 3-hit combo of
>neck-kick and double fierce DP. Not to mention the standard jumping
>fierce, standing fierce, fierce fireball. Most importantly, however,
>his hurricane kick does a great deal of damage and knocks the opponent
>off the ground. Ken's does little damage, and you can punch him out
>of it without fear of damage.
>
> The rest of that ranking is totally BS. Sagat is the one of
>the best characters in CA, but he has serious problems against Blanka
>and Chun Li. Good players know what I'm talking about. So he's in
I know what you're talking about, but the Sagats I know have
mastered the waiting TU. That is, wait longer than usuall, and their
TU hits everything (even Chun Li's short kick coming from all ranges)
>the top 3, but not the most versatile. His best move, of course, is
>his tiger uppercut. Masters know how to do the tiger uppercut while
>minimizing the chances of getting knocked out of it.
>
> The rest is pretty standard: Zangief is in the top 6 (really!
>if you ever played a master Zangief player, especially one who's
>cheaping with a splat, crouching forward, SPD combo, you know what I'm
>talking about. After all, I'm a Zangief player who gets his SPD with
>over 95% accuracy). Unfortunately, he has serious problems against
>blanka and e.honda.
Blanka? yes. Honda? if you know how to just walk up and maximize his
mega-throw range, almost all of Honda's attacks are shorter than
the range. Also, his HHS can be easily (too easily) hit by
a crouching roundhouse
> Bison is still a good player out there, but the strategies are
>different.
I like using him. Really have to work for your wins if you use Bison.
> Finally, let me just say that Ken sucks. I don't know why
>people still spend so much time with him. His single DP does little
Those people out there just like the xtra speed and the TOD
>damage, his fireballs & recovery is slow, and his HK sucks too (little
>damage, doesn't knock the player down). He's great against a bad
>player, since you can KO your opponent in just a few seconds, but
>that's about it. I slaughter all Ken players with Guile.
Of course! Ken's a bad matchup vs. Guile but otherwise can be a pain.
> I'm sure there are quite a few people out there who completely
>disagree with me, but let me ask you: are you one of the best players
>in your area or state? Have you been to a CES and beaten everyone?
Damn right I am.
> My friends and I slaughtered Ken Williams at the CES in
>Chicago (and got plenty of free Mortal Kombat T-shirts), not to
>mention almost everyone else there. There were a lot of great players
>there, however. Saw more Zangief masters there than ever before.
Saaaay, you haven't seen this Lord Baal guy, have you?
> That's about it. In case you're wondering, I play Zangief and
>Ryu first, and then Guile.
>
Zangief? Good. we need more Zangief players out there.
Give Balrog a shot. You'll be surprised. Also, you get more glory when
you win with an "underdog" character.
I mean "Guile beats Balrog" is what people (who don't know better) expect.
when "Balrog beats Guile" happens, it's an eye-catcher.
And don't tell me Guile vs. Balrog is CLEARLY a guile thing.
Guile has the advantage, but not as much as he used to (read: as much as in
the CE days)
- RPM
Philip John Stroffolino
>great SAGAT? Lemme tell you, it's scary.
Most Sagat players are Ryu/Ken godlings that only dabble with Sagat for
a change of pace... Sagat shouldn't be played like Ryu/Ken, methinks...
PJS
Philip John Stroffolino
>Chicago (and got plenty of free Mortal Kombat T-shirts), not to
>mention almost everyone else there. There were a lot of great players
>there, however. Saw more Zangief masters there than ever before.
Ken Williams? The infamous "Sushi-X" from EGM? :^) He's a no-throw,
right? I remember an article he wrote in which he said that if Capcom
was wise, in SF3 they'd make it impossible to throw "an opponent in a
legitimate defensive positon." :^)
Hey, Merlin - did you happen to play a very heavyset guy named Jeff who
exclusively used Honda while you were there?
Phil
RPM
who said to play them like Ken/Ryu? That's the worst thing to do!
I didn't that. I know sagats that transfered from K/R who prefer the
power and range of Sag.
- RPM
>
>PJS
Philip John Stroffolino
>>>great SAGAT? Lemme tell you, it's scary.
>>Most Sagat players are Ryu/Ken godlings that only dabble with Sagat for
>>a change of pace... Sagat shouldn't be played like Ryu/Ken, methinks...
>who said to play them like Ken/Ryu? That's the worst thing to do!
>I didn't that. I know sagats that transfered from K/R who prefer the
>power and range of Sag.
You misunderstand, Rodney...
I was agreeing with you -- and alluding to a major reason why Sagat is
underestimated by most players... People who try to play him like
Ryu/Ken get messed up and frustrated. The people who are patient enough
to learn to use him optimally are few and far between.
Phil
RPM
Oi vey! I'm embarrased! sorry 'bout that Phil.
On another note, has anyone gauged to an accurate degree those combos?
and is Houston the only place that uses an interrupted standing short kick
to go to a Tiger Knee/Uppercut/blast?
- RPM
again, sorry phil.