Death of Ticking Guile (HF)
cho soobum
could in CE and Classic. The reason is his SB delay. His two basic ticks
are /SB/throw/ and /SB/jump-in Forward(blocked)/ ducking Jab(blocked)/ SB/
throw/. Any tick involving a throw after a SB doesn't work anymore in HF
against non-scrubs. Here's why:
/SB/throw/:
This tick works best when Guile throws the Jab SB relatively close.
Guile cannot do that in HF. If he throws the SB from relatively close
vs. Ryu, and he is going to go for the throw, Ryu will either HK
Guile, or jump-in and combo Guile because he will still be in his
SB delay. The only thing Guile can do after throwing a SB near
Ryu(or anyone) is to crouch to kill the delay, and counterattack or
block if they try something. So, the only way this tick will "work"
is if Guile throws the Jab SB from far away and walks behind it all
the way up to Ryu and throw. Of course, this won't work almost all
of the time .... hence the death of /SB/throw/.
/SB/jump-in Forward/ducking Jab/SB/throw/:
The story for this tick is basically the same as the last one. First
of all, the initial SB must be thrown from far away. The tick
ultimately ends with /SB/throw/ and we all know that isn't a viable
option anymore.....the opponent doesn't need an HK. All they have to
do is jump-in and combo Guile.
Two ticks that are still valid are walk-in throw and jab ticking, but these
are harder to pull off than Guile's SB-throw patterns. Its kind of sad ...
Guile used to be such a ticking machine, but now he has no throw range, and
only once "reliable" tick(jab tick). I suppose you could still do this:
/Close-range SB/ crouch(to kill delay)/ walk-in throw or fake/
Of course you could only do this if they didn't jump-in or jump-up after the
SB ...
-Soobum
sc...@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu
Seth James Killian
>/SB/throw/:
> This tick works best when Guile throws the Jab SB relatively close.
> Guile cannot do that in HF. If he throws the SB from relatively close
> vs. Ryu, and he is going to go for the throw, Ryu will either HK
> Guile, or jump-in and combo Guile because he will still be in his
> SB delay. The only thing Guile can do after throwing a SB near
I think you have been making _way_ too big a deal out of the
SB delay. It is true Guile has lost the "instant" recovery of CE,
but the SB delay does not even approach a FB delay, or that of most
other special moves. Overall, it is fairly fast, plus the charge
time has been _decreased_! Have you been getting wiped by Ryu's?
Well, it could be because Ryu has an advantage over Guile! Other
than for Ryu, the HK comment is irrelevant (Ken's is a free hit for
Guile) and the SB delay is nowhere near long enough to allow the
opponent to jump in and combo Guile afterwards. To do that, even the
quick jumpers like Blanka must already be in the air to actually hit
Guile.
If you are referring to Ryu alone, then yes, SB ticking him
is a bad idea, and tough to set up. Overall, however, he is no worse
for the wear, and the idea of lessened throwing range is bogus. Ryu
has been a tough fight for Guile since CE, so you can't just be sloppy
about ticking him, that much is true, but no new news. Against everone
else, however, what are you talking about? >
>
Seth Killian
>
Crying Freeman
Huh? Death of Ticking Guile? That's ME!! :)
Actually, amongst the local Guile coalition here, I am known as ticking
Guile...
>It has recently dawned upon me that Guile can't effectively tick in HF as he
>could in CE and Classic. The reason is his SB delay. His two basic ticks
I have to disagree with this... In HF, his ticks are actually better because
the speed increase actually makes it harder for people to react...
>are /SB/throw/ and /SB/jump-in Forward(blocked)/ ducking Jab(blocked)/ SB/
>throw/. Any tick involving a throw after a SB doesn't work anymore in HF
>against non-scrubs. Here's why:
The entire key to ticking with any character is the psychological edge that
you get when your opponent has the fear of you ticking. Against Ken/Ryu
a great fake is to follow the boom, duck (defensive crouch), and toss them
when they land from the DP. Against Ken, you need to be careful, because
they can reDP almost instantaneously. If you mix this up with sweeps,
forward kicks, and actual tick throws, you can keep your opponent really
off balance.
>
>/SB/throw/:
> This tick works best when Guile throws the Jab SB relatively close.
> Guile cannot do that in HF. If he throws the SB from relatively close
> vs. Ryu, and he is going to go for the throw, Ryu will either HK
> Guile, or jump-in and combo Guile because he will still be in his
I don't think Guile's delay will allow Ryu a combo unless he's already jumping
in on you when you boom...
As to the HK, I think the delay is more a reactionary delay that an actual
delay in the boom. I tend to get clipped by the HK when I am in a dazed
pattern Guile state. The best counter against the HK is to block and
throw afterwards... As long as you don't get sloppy with your throw, it's
yours...
> SB delay. The only thing Guile can do after throwing a SB near
> Ryu(or anyone) is to crouch to kill the delay, and counterattack or
> block if they try something. So, the only way this tick will "work"
> is if Guile throws the Jab SB from far away and walks behind it all
> the way up to Ryu and throw. Of course, this won't work almost all
> of the time .... hence the death of /SB/throw/.
Another good "mix up" for the SB/throw is to throw in either a standing
short or crouching short right before the throw... I noticed that
the crouch short is a good "shock to defense" tactic that will momentarily
freeze your opponent especially if he's trying to counter.
>/SB/jump-in Forward/ducking Jab/SB/throw/:
> The story for this tick is basically the same as the last one. First
> of all, the initial SB must be thrown from far away. The tick
> ultimately ends with /SB/throw/ and we all know that isn't a viable
> option anymore.....the opponent doesn't need an HK. All they have to
> do is jump-in and combo Guile.
Again, your problem seems to be not mixing up your ticks...
BTW Speaking of this, I've been pulling off a great Guile "pseudo combo."
It goes :
Fierce Chop-Standing Fierce-Sonic Boom-SUPLEX.
It's worked several times for me now when the opponent is in the corner
and always draws some applause from the crowd... Also does a good chunk
(About 1/2 life...)
Another thing... The delay on the backhand seems to occur when you use
the "tap" method for Guile comboing. If you do it with 3 or 4 button
presses, the delay doesn't occur. Tapping the button seems to "jam"
the backfist.
>Two ticks that are still valid are walk-in throw and jab ticking, but these
>are harder to pull off than Guile's SB-throw patterns. Its kind of sad ...
>Guile used to be such a ticking machine, but now he has no throw range, and
>only once "reliable" tick(jab tick). I suppose you could still do this:
Another thing... Guile's throw range has been INCREASED, along with everyone
elses... You can throw your opponent from approximately 1.5 inches away!
Also, jab tick is his LEAST effect tick unless it is incorporated into
a sonic boom tick...
>
>/Close-range SB/ crouch(to kill delay)/ walk-in throw or fake/
Huh? I think your sonic boom delay is largely psychological....
>Of course you could only do this if they didn't jump-in or jump-up after the
>SB ...
Guile has been improved from CE as a ticking machine...
BTW, I tried the "knee" tick and I've only gotten it to work successfully
about 4 times in 50...
I'm working on it though. :)
I actually
>
>-Soobum
>sc...@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu
>
--
Che-Yuan Wang
cw2...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
cyw...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Naval Ravikant
sc...@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (cho soobum) writes:
> This tick works best when Guile throws the Jab SB relatively close.
> Guile cannot do that in HF. If he throws the SB from relatively close
> vs. Ryu, and he is going to go for the throw, Ryu will either HK
> Guile, or jump-in and combo Guile because he will still be in his
> SB delay. The only thing Guile can do after throwing a SB near
> Ryu(or anyone) is to crouch to kill the delay, and counterattack or
> block if they try something. So, the only way this tick will "work"
> is if Guile throws the Jab SB from far away and walks behind it all
> the way up to Ryu and throw. Of course, this won't work almost all
> of the time .... hence the death of /SB/throw/.
I noticed the SB and backfist delays on HF as well, but especially for
the former, it isn't too severe. Certainly, none of the characters can
see it coming, jump in, and combo.
>
>
> /SB/jump-in Forward/ducking Jab/SB/throw/:
> The story for this tick is basically the same as the last one. First
> of all, the initial SB must be thrown from far away. The tick
> ultimately ends with /SB/throw/ and we all know that isn't a viable
> option anymore.....the opponent doesn't need an HK. All they have to
> do is jump-in and combo Guile.
>
> Two ticks that are still valid are walk-in throw and jab ticking, but these
> are harder to pull off than Guile's SB-throw patterns. Its kind of sad ...
> Guile used to be such a ticking machine, but now he has no throw range, and
> only once "reliable" tick(jab tick). I suppose you could still do this:
>
> /Close-range SB/ crouch(to kill delay)/ walk-in throw or fake/
>
> Of course you could only do this if they didn't jump-in or jump-up after the
> SB ...
Well, along with making Guile's crouching Fierce less effective as
air defense, I think these modifications are only fair to bring Guile
down towards game balance. I just wished that Ken/Ryu/Sagat had been
weakened as well in HF, instead of having been made stronger. In HF,
capcom did have a chance to achieve some game balance, because above
cool new moves and the like, its playability that counts. I think they
went a long way, but really failed with the 3 uppercutting chars..
You'd think they'd have realized that there's a reason why Ryu seems to
be the most popular character. Just my $.02
- Naval
" Then...something shuffles, out of sight...something sucks the stale
air...and hisses. Gliding with ancient grace...eyes gleaming untouched
by love or joy or sorrow...breath hot with the taste of fallen
foes...the stench of dead things, damned things...surely the fiercest
survivor...the purest warrior...glaring, hating...claiming me as your
own." - Frank Miller
Naval.R...@Dartmouth.Edu Dar...@coos.dartmouth.edu
cho soobum
>sc...@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (cho soobum) writes:
>The entire key to ticking with any character is the psychological edge that
>you get when your opponent has the fear of you ticking. Against Ken/Ryu
>a great fake is to follow the boom, duck (defensive crouch), and toss them
>when they land from the DP. Against Ken, you need to be careful, because
>they can reDP almost instantaneously. If you mix this up with sweeps,
>forward kicks, and actual tick throws, you can keep your opponent really
>off balance.
I know about all of this, because I love to tick... I didn't post
this because I wasn't having any luck ticking, but because of the
theoretical aspect of the SB delay ....
>I don't think Guile's delay will allow Ryu a combo unless he's already jumping
>in on you when you boom...
Maybe I went a little to far with saying he could combo you, but the
Jab SB allows Ryu enough time to REACT and jump-in with a Roundhouse to
Guile's head....its been done to me many times when throwing SBs
from close-range.
>As to the HK, I think the delay is more a reactionary delay that an actual
>delay in the boom. I tend to get clipped by the HK when I am in a dazed
>pattern Guile state. The best counter against the HK is to block and
>throw afterwards... As long as you don't get sloppy with your throw, it's
>yours...
Go try it yourself with a friend. Throw a SB within Backfist range
against Ryu and hold the joystick towards as if you are going in
to tick. When he does the HK as the SB reaches him, you will not
be able to duck under because you didn't crouch right away after
the SB. I really don't think the delay is reactionary ... its an
honest-to-god physical delay.
>Another thing... Guile's throw range has been INCREASED, along with everyone
>elses... You can throw your opponent from approximately 1.5 inches away!
I got the decreased throw range info from one of the Guile posts
a while back that complained about what they did to him in HF ...
it said Ken could walk right up to Guile and throw him while he
was waiting to counterthrow .... I'm pretty sure it was the uiuc
Guiles that posted that post.
>BTW, I tried the "knee" tick and I've only gotten it to work successfully
>about 4 times in 50...
It only works against scrubs :)
>I'm working on it though. :)
>>
cho soobum
> I think you have been making _way_ too big a deal out of the
> SB delay. It is true Guile has lost the "instant" recovery of CE,
> but the SB delay does not even approach a FB delay, or that of most
> other special moves. Overall, it is fairly fast, plus the charge
> time has been _decreased_! Have you been getting wiped by Ryu's?
> Well, it could be because Ryu has an advantage over Guile! Other
> than for Ryu, the HK comment is irrelevant (Ken's is a free hit for
> Guile) and the SB delay is nowhere near long enough to allow the
> opponent to jump in and combo Guile afterwards. To do that, even the
> quick jumpers like Blanka must already be in the air to actually hit
> Guile.
Maybe I'm wrong, but just try it for yourself. Throw a
SB with Guile and immediately hold towards ... look how long
it takes for him to actually start walking ... it definitely
does approach(about equal IMO) Ryu's FB delay. One might
say that Guile's SB delay can't be very long because he can
follow his SB and Ryu can't follow his FB ... the reason is
simple: The Jab SB travels very slowly. Throwing a Jab SB
at close range might not give the opponent enough time to
combo, but it definitely does give them enough time to get
a hit to Guile's head. The Jab SB is very slow and it
doesn't prevent the opponent from jumping-in .... a Fierce
SB at close range, might force them to jump straight up or
block, but then Guile couldn't tick.
No, I haven't been getting wiped by Ryus(people mostly suck
here) and I know about
the decreased charge time and it is very useful to say the
least ... but the delay is there....its there, but the
opponents are too used to CE Guile so they don't jump in
so I get to tick....but I'm thinking in terms of playing
good people. I learned about the severity of Guile's SB
delay, not from playing people, but from playing cpu Ryu.
I'd be a couple body lengths away and throw a Jab SB. Ryu
would jump in over the boom and combo me with /aerial Round-
house/Roundhouse Sweep/. I didn't do anything but block.
Now that I know how to shorten the delay with a crouch, I
can block or counter in that situation...if you don't believe
me about the crouching-to-shorten-delay thing, just try for
yourself.
>>
> Seth Killian
>>
cho soobum
>
>/Close-range SB/ crouch(to kill delay)/ walk-in throw or fake/
It seems as if no one believes me about the crouch-kill-delay thing
but if you do believe me, I think I've found a way that allows Guile
to SB-tick SAFELY. First here's an example to set up my explanation:
Guile throws a Strong SB at Blanka who is 2-3 body lengths
away. Guile player immediately pulls the joystick to crouch
(defensive crouch is best for obvious reasons) to shorten
the SB delay and prevent getting hit in the head. Blanka
jumps in over the SB and Guile knocks him out of the air
with a standing Roundhouse BEFORE his animation actually
reached a crouch.
What this means is that the crouching method kills the delay before
Guile's animation is actually crouching....what this signifys is
that Guile can do the crouch-kill after a SB from close range(ticking
range) and still start walking behind it at the same time he would
have started to walk if he had just held the joystick to towards
after the SB. Here's the scenario:
Guile is about 2 body-lengths away from Ken. He throws a
Jab SB and immediately pulls the joystick to defensive
crouch in case Ken jumps-in or up. Ken does not immediately
jump in after the SB comes out so the Guile player pulls the
joystick to towards and starts walking at the same time he
would have started walking if he had immediately pulled the
joystick to towards(ie, allowed the delay to last its full
duration). Now Guile can go in and tick/fake. So Guile
can SB/tick, but he must do it in this manner to make it safe.
-Soobum
>
>-Soobum
>sc...@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu
>
Crying Freeman
>cyw...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Crying Freeman) writes:
>>sc...@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (cho soobum) writes:
> I know about all of this, because I love to tick... I didn't post
> this because I wasn't having any luck ticking, but because of the
> theoretical aspect of the SB delay ....
OK. It just sounded like you were saying that Guile's ticks no longer work. :)
>>I don't think Guile's delay will allow Ryu a combo unless he's already jumping
>>in on you when you boom...
>
> Maybe I went a little to far with saying he could combo you, but the
> Jab SB allows Ryu enough time to REACT and jump-in with a Roundhouse to
> Guile's head....its been done to me many times when throwing SBs
> from close-range.
It's much worse with Ken. If you throw a slow boom, it seems he can almost
ALWAYS jump in on you no matter how close you are... Ken seems to have jumping
speed close to Blanka's these days...
> Go try it yourself with a friend. Throw a SB within Backfist range
> against Ryu and hold the joystick towards as if you are going in
> to tick. When he does the HK as the SB reaches him, you will not
> be able to duck under because you didn't crouch right away after
> the SB. I really don't think the delay is reactionary ... its an
> honest-to-god physical delay.
Hmmm... That's what I mean. You are walking towards Ryu when he HKs,
so between reacting, pulling back into Defensive crouch and the speed of
HF, it makes it harder to react. I think we're agreeing here, just calling
it different things?? I don't think there is an actual delay programmed
into the game when you don't immediately crouch after the boom. (?)
> I got the decreased throw range info from one of the Guile posts
> a while back that complained about what they did to him in HF ...
> it said Ken could walk right up to Guile and throw him while he
> was waiting to counterthrow .... I'm pretty sure it was the uiuc
> Guiles that posted that post.
The two ticks that I have the hardest time countering are:
1) Ken jumping roundhouse, then throw.
2) Blanka jumping anything, then bite.
3) Honda's jumping ticks.
I have actually had trouble with the Blanka tick since Classic, but
the Ken tick is seemingly worse in HF because of Ken's relative speed increase.
Also, is it just me, or is it really hard to get the razor kick off
as an off the ground move for aerial defense. It might just be psychological
for me because Guile is so vulnerable after the razor...
>>BTW, I tried the "knee" tick and I've only gotten it to work successfully
>>about 4 times in 50...
>
> It only works against scrubs :)
>
>>I'm working on it though. :)
Seriously, I LOVE trying it... The few times I've gotten it to work, on
scrubs or not, it just cracks me up! :) The knee in general is a pretty
humiliating move to use on scrubs, but I hate when it comes out when I
don't want it due to crummy joysticks...
cho soobum
>sc...@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (cho soobum) writes:
>>cyw...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Crying Freeman) writes:
>>>sc...@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (cho soobum) writes:
>
>> Go try it yourself with a friend. Throw a SB within Backfist range
>> against Ryu and hold the joystick towards as if you are going in
>> to tick. When he does the HK as the SB reaches him, you will not
>> be able to duck under because you didn't crouch right away after
>> the SB. I really don't think the delay is reactionary ... its an
>> honest-to-god physical delay.
>Hmmm... That's what I mean. You are walking towards Ryu when he HKs,
>so between reacting, pulling back into Defensive crouch and the speed of
>HF, it makes it harder to react. I think we're agreeing here, just calling
>it different things?? I don't think there is an actual delay programmed
>into the game when you don't immediately crouch after the boom. (?)
The thing is, I am trying to walk(holding joystick towards), but
I don't start walking before Ryu starts HKing because Guile is
still in his SB delay. Here's a good way to test my SB-delay-
shortening theory:
Play cpu Blanka. From close range, throw a SB and
immediately hold straight back. Blanka will most likely
jump in and Guile will get hit in the head because he
will still be in his delay .... just like how Ryu gets
hit in the head if he throws FBs too close to Blanka.
Throw another SB from close range, but this time,
immediately pull the stick to defensive crouch after
you throw the SB. When Blanka jumps in, Guile will be
free to block Blanka's aerial attack... this is proof
that crouching after a SB shortens the delay.
>The two ticks that I have the hardest time countering are:
>1) Ken jumping roundhouse, then throw.
Me too...this is the situation where Guile's throw range seems small.
>2) Blanka jumping anything, then bite.
>3) Honda's jumping ticks.
>>>>
Frank M. Lin
Guile is, the most well-rounded character, IMO. That's it for now.
--
frank m. lin
fm...@netcom.com