"For free" in Alpha 3 (hey that rhymes)
MCTek
Akuma's air fireball and V-Cody, for free!!
Blanka's electricity and R.Mika, for free!!
Dan's jumping short and Gen, for free!!
No-ism Zangief and Dhalsim, for free!! (inside joke)
Turtling poking V-Vega and X-ism, for free!!
Zangief and R.Mika, for free!!
Turtling Charlie and X-Birdie, for free!!
and more to come as we play the game more!!
-MCTek
joemama
MCTek wrote in message <77mnjm$k...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>...
Dinohead
joemama <jae...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:77mqtb$9l2$1...@camel21.mindspring.com...
MCTek
something that absolutely beats something else. For instance, in SF2, if
the opponent is in the air, Ryu gets a dragonpunch "for free". Or Dhalsim
beat Birdie so easily it's "for free". I hope that explains it.
-MCTek
kayin/ka khiong kwok
discussion Freud, women in society and now this. All we need now is a thread
on Ed De Bono and lateral thinking and the NG could become
alt.games.sf2.attempted.intellectualism
Cheers,
Ka. :')
=== A thought... ===
If Bison didn't become a meglomanic, dark spirited
dictator, what profession would he have taken up?
Viscant
>If Bison didn't become a meglomanic, dark spirited
>dictator, what profession would he have taken up?
Eh, I know this is going on elsewhere, but here seems like the best place to
put this. What would Bison be? I gotta throw my vote in for chemistry
professor. Basically because I had a chem prof awhile back that not only
resembled Bison, but I was thouroughly convinced that he was mixing chemicals
to give himself Psycho power. Dude, this guy was freaky. But I could so
picture Bison (well, maybe not Alpha Bison. Classic Bison here) mixing
chemicals and yelling at college students. Hehehe...waaaay too much time on
our hands here...
--Viscant, The Icy Rose
"There is only...OTOKO MICHI!!!"
Iceiklez
IceMan out!
SF King
[Not the best, But real Close]
o_ev...@hotmail.com
"For free" means that when one character fights another, one character beats
the other with no effort.
BTW, another one to add to that: Cammy beats Zangief, for free. Milo knows
this. :)
Onaje Everett
o_ev...@hotmail.com
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me."
-Philippians 4:13
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
falco...@my-dejanews.com
"MCTek" <jump...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<free stuff snipped>
A few of the examples above aren't as free as others, but I see what you are
getting at.
Sigh... my least favorite type of player is the player who picks a "free-win"
against my character, plays in the "free-win" style, and then tells me that I
suck.
Still, players like that can be beaten with the right kind of mind game.
Key example: I was playing against the computer with X-Dan (I think this was
when I was testing his taunts for effectiveness) when a person came up and
chose A-Cody. (If anyone can give me a way that X-Dan can have a real
fighting chance against a Cody who stays away and mixes up rocks, I would
like to hear it.)
Anyway, I stayed away and kept jump-taunting over his rocks. Realizing that I
was running down the clock and not taking block damage, he eventually gave up
his strategy and came close, and I pummelled him to death.
I've always believed that underdog characters can have a chance against anyone
if played right, so I don't believe that there are too many "free wins" out
there (other than untouchable scenarios like Blanka and Mika). Then again, I
don't play too many tournament types, so it might be the competition here.
FalconPain Overall annoying "Dan and the Third Row" player "The easiest
opponent is the opponent who bases his entire strategy on an unbeatable move
that happens to be beatable." Myself, after defeating a Zangief with
Birdie's Bull Revenger, where the Zangief player's strategy was simply
Lariating anyone who got close
MCTek
news:77od5c$10i$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>In article <19990115141039...@ng32.aol.com>,
> icei...@aol.com (Iceiklez) wrote:
>> What do U mean for free?
>
>"For free" means that when one character fights another, one character
beats
>the other with no effort.
>
>BTW, another one to add to that: Cammy beats Zangief, for free. Milo
knows
>this. :)
point. Does that mean we can add Juni and Juli to that list or just Juni?
-MCTek
kayin/ka khiong kwok
Viscant wrote in message <19990115122954...@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>Eh, I know this is going on elsewhere, but here seems like the best place
to
>put this. What would Bison be? I gotta throw my vote in for chemistry
>professor. Basically because I had a chem prof awhile back that not only
>resembled Bison, but I was thouroughly convinced that he was mixing
chemicals
>to give himself Psycho power. Dude, this guy was freaky. But I could so
>picture Bison (well, maybe not Alpha Bison. Classic Bison here) mixing
>chemicals and yelling at college students. Hehehe...waaaay too much time
on
>our hands here...
But it's summer so free time isn't too bad. Irony is that we got a tad too
much sun so staying out a second too long usually means they have to scrape
your charred corpse from the pavement. :')
Incidentally, aren't ALL chemistry teachers like that. I had one where I
swear he could almost read your mind. It's probably in the training.
Cheers,
Ka.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
V gets VC beat down on X for free when X blows it's super.
--
How do you spell a-n-d?
Milo D. Cooper
Strange, I don't remember fighting any Zangiefs at that (dull) tournament,
except for Jason Wilson's, to whom I lost because I didn't think that he'd
keep jumping in on me (I have to stop giving people intellectual credit --
my winning percentage would definitely go up). I don't know about Juni,
since I don't play her, and since she's a charge character and so won't
always have the cannon spike at her disposal, but yeah, the fight's pretty
much a breeze for Juli as well.
My take on the "for free" ( (c) c. 1995 Chris Finnie) Alpha 3 fights
(winner first):
Dhalsim vs. anyone except maybe V-Akuma
V-Akuma vs. anyone except maybe Dhalsim
Anyone with good aerial attacks vs. Guile
Cammy, Juli, and probably Juni vs. any grappler
Cammy, Juli, and probably Juni vs. Blanka (why are you balling?)
Rose vs. Blanka (why are you balling?)
Honda vs. Blanka (why are you balling?)
Anyone vs. Dan
Anyone except Dan vs. Birdie
Adon vs. Sagat
Ryu vs. Balrog
AND OF COURSE, Fireball-Uppercut (except Sagat) vs. Honda
P.S. I've seen Akuma standing jab people out of uppercuts. WtF is
up with *that*??
--
/|__Milo D. Cooper__________________EverQuest character modeler__|\
\| http://www.milos-chalkboard.net/ http://www.everquest.com/ |/
MCTek
news:36A0F88A...@milos-chalkboard.net...
> Strange, I don't remember fighting any Zangiefs at that (dull)
tournament,
>except for Jason Wilson's, to whom I lost because I didn't think that he'd
>keep jumping in on me (I have to stop giving people intellectual credit --
>my winning percentage would definitely go up). I don't know about Juni,
>since I don't play her, and since she's a charge character and so won't
>always have the cannon spike at her disposal, but yeah, the fight's pretty
>much a breeze for Juli as well.
In reality I saw the match you had with James :-p
> My take on the "for free" ( (c) c. 1995 Chris Finnie) Alpha 3 fights
>(winner first):
>
> Dhalsim vs. anyone except maybe V-Akuma
and Bison!! ahh ha ha ha okay I'll stop. And no-ism Zangief. I'm sure
everyone saw THAT match?
> V-Akuma vs. anyone except maybe Dhalsim
> Anyone with good aerial attacks vs. Guile
> Cammy, Juli, and probably Juni vs. any grappler
Even R.Mika?!!?
> Anyone vs. Dan
Gen? Nevermind, what was I think.
> Anyone except Dan vs. Birdie
Me thinks V-Dan has good chance versus Birdie.
> Adon vs. Sagat
Believe it or not I've NEVER seen that match up before in Alpha 3.
> P.S. I've seen Akuma standing jab people out of uppercuts. WtF is
>up with *that*??
Heh heh heh, there's something cheap about the words "Akuma" "jab" and
"uppercut" too (hint hint). Let's just say that if you knew this you'll
REALLY hate Akuma. Dunno if they fixed it in the home version though.
-MCTek
Chocobo
> Strange, I don't remember fighting any Zangiefs at that (dull) tournament,
> except for Jason Wilson's, to whom I lost because I didn't think that he'd
> keep jumping in on me (I have to stop giving people intellectual credit --
> my winning percentage would definitely go up). I don't know about Juni,
> since I don't play her, and since she's a charge character and so won't
> always have the cannon spike at her disposal, but yeah, the fight's pretty
> much a breeze for Juli as well.
How do they beat Zangief for free? Anyway if there's a fight that Cammy and Juli
win easy, Juni almost definitely will too, since she's the best of the three.
> My take on the "for free" ( (c) c. 1995 Chris Finnie) Alpha 3 fights
> (winner first):
>
> Dhalsim vs. anyone except maybe V-Akuma
> V-Akuma vs. anyone except maybe Dhalsim
> Anyone with good aerial attacks vs. Guile
Since when did free includes fights that are just unbalanced? I thought free was
like certain Ibuki fights and certain vs Hugo fights, or one button Cammy vs T
Hawk. You have to at least be awake to win those fights, and Guile isn't THAT bad.
> Cammy, Juli, and probably Juni vs. any grappler
I don't know about this... V-Sodom and V-Zangief are all right. Juni kills Gief
though.
> Cammy, Juli, and probably Juni vs. Blanka (why are you balling?)
I don't know... Blanka sucks and everything, but Juli isn't very good either.
> Anyone vs. Dan
Oh please... Dan is weak but few characters absolutely kill him... he's got a good
corner VC and jumping short is good, pushblock, and air gale kick...
>
> Adon vs. Sagat
How does this work?
>
> Ryu vs. Balrog
More than just Ryu, I'd say... Balrog sucks
Milo D. Cooper
>> "Milo D. Cooper" wrote:
>>
>> Strange, I don't remember fighting any Zangiefs at that (dull) tournament,
>> except for Jason Wilson's, to whom I lost because I didn't think that he'd
>> keep jumping in on me (I have to stop giving people intellectual credit --
>> my winning percentage would definitely go up). I don't know about Juni,
>> since I don't play her, and since she's a charge character and so won't
>> always have the cannon spike at her disposal, but yeah, the fight's pretty
>> much a breeze for Juli as well.
>
> How do they beat Zangief for free?
Because his bullsh*t aerial priority gets smacked by the cannon
spike, plain and simple. People who like to come in with Zangief's
ridiculous splash, jumping fierce, jumping short, et al. are asking
for it; most of the time, these won't even trade, and he gets hit
cleanly. The shinryuken super, had by all three of Bison's wenches,
just makes this worse, and on top of these, the grapplers are the
easiest characters on whom to perform the hooligan grab as they're
rising from a knock-down (though T.Hawk is a little more problematic
than Birdie, Zangief, and Sodom, since he as an uppercut), thanks to
their large size (i.e. nice fat area of vulnerability) and lack of a
good wake-up move (and yes, I've grabbed Zangiefs out of wake-up
lariats). The Bison Wench standing roundhouse, which is a very good
normal attack anyway, is perfect against fat, juicy grapplers who
try to poke or jump in from medium to long range, and the standing
fierce is pretty good against long-range jump-ins as well. Heck, I
can use Juli/Juni's forward overhead to hit grapplers out of the
air.
> Anyway if there's a fight that Cammy and Juli
> win easy, Juni almost definitely will too, since she's the best of the three.
Juni should be the best in theory, yes. Like I said, though, I
don't play her (I don't care for charge characters, playing them feels
like turtling), and I've yet to see someone use her ten-million moves
to great effect. James Romedy bags the occasional Juni victory, maybe
if he played her more seriously...
>> My take on the "for free" ( (c) c. 1995 Chris Finnie) Alpha 3 fights
>> (winner first):
>>
>> Dhalsim vs. anyone except maybe V-Akuma
>> V-Akuma vs. anyone except maybe Dhalsim
>> Anyone with good aerial attacks vs. Guile
>
> Since when did free includes fights that are just unbalanced? I thought free was
> like certain Ibuki fights and certain vs Hugo fights, or one button Cammy vs T
> Hawk. You have to at least be awake to win those fights, and Guile isn't THAT bad.
Guile's flash kick is worthless, especially now that there are
so many moves that circumnavigate his sonic booms (off-the-wall
moves, flip kicks, moves that go underneath, supers, VC's, arc
kicks, etc.). It has much worse priority than Chalrie's in any
mode, to the tune that some characters can jump in with a strong
or fierce punch and hit him clean out of the roundhouse version.
It's more than non-balance, it's a slaughter.
>> Cammy, Juli, and probably Juni vs. any grappler
>
> I don't know about this... V-Sodom and V-Zangief are all right. Juni kills Gief
> though.
They're all right as long as they don't jump.
>> Cammy, Juli, and probably Juni vs. Blanka (why are you balling?)
>
> I don't know... Blanka sucks and everything, but Juli isn't very good either.
She's underrated. In fact, I probably give people more trouble
with her than with any of my other regular chracters. The recovery
on the leaping kick is sick, and at close range you can use it to
get on the opposite side of your opponent, which is special hell on
charge characters. Cammy *wishes* she had a lateral attack that
good (cannon drill is crap), and Juni wishes she didn't have to
charge her drill, which has inferior range and recovery. Not many
characters can perform a rushing attack from almost all the way
across the screen and not have worry if it's blocked. Top it off
with X-mode damage and one of the best supers in the game, and
she's not as bad as you think.
>> Anyone vs. Dan
>
> Oh please... Dan is weak but few characters absolutely kill him... he's got a good
> corner VC and jumping short is good, pushblock, and air gale kick...
His priority sucks, his uppercut sucks, his projectile sucks, and
his recovery sucks. The air gale kick is decent if your opponent
jumps, which isn't necessary, ever. Who doesn't destroy Dan, and why?
>> Adon vs. Sagat
>
> How does this work?
Low fierce if Sagat jumps in or throws a high tiger, roundhouse
jaguar kick at medium range hits most of Sagat's moves and trades
with the rest, straight-up jumping strong, forward, or roundhouse
at medium range in case Sagat tries anything, jagaur knee beats
all of Sagat's jump-ins.
>> Ryu vs. Balrog
>
> More than just Ryu, I'd say... Balrog sucks
Sure, why not.
--
/|__Milo D. Cooper________________EverQuest character modeler__|\
\| http://www.milos-chalkboard.net http://www.everquest.com |/
Chocobo
> She's underrated. In fact, I probably give people more trouble
> with her than with any of my other regular chracters. The recovery
> on the leaping kick is sick, and at close range you can use it to
> get on the opposite side of your opponent, which is special hell on
> charge characters. Cammy *wishes* she had a lateral attack that
> good (cannon drill is crap), and Juni wishes she didn't have to
> charge her drill, which has inferior range and recovery. Not many
> characters can perform a rushing attack from almost all the way
> across the screen and not have worry if it's blocked. Top it off
> with X-mode damage and one of the best supers in the game, and
> she's not as bad as you think.
Hmm. I didn't realize her flying kick was anything but useless.
>
> >> Anyone vs. Dan
> >
> > Oh please... Dan is weak but few characters absolutely kill him... he's got a good
> > corner VC and jumping short is good, pushblock, and air gale kick...
>
> His priority sucks, his uppercut sucks, his projectile sucks, and
> his recovery sucks. The air gale kick is decent if your opponent
> jumps, which isn't necessary, ever. Who doesn't destroy Dan, and why?
Most everyone wins against him... I just wouldn't say "destroy". Above average VCs
(including one that can be done anywhere), jump short is useful... he doesn't rock but
crap characters can lose to him. His stand strong does more than a roundhouse worth of
guard meter too (like that matters).
>
> >> Adon vs. Sagat
> >
> > How does this work?
>
> Low fierce if Sagat jumps in or throws a high tiger, roundhouse
> jaguar kick at medium range hits most of Sagat's moves and trades
> with the rest, straight-up jumping strong, forward, or roundhouse
> at medium range in case Sagat tries anything, jagaur knee beats
> all of Sagat's jump-ins.
Hm. I guess Sagat just sucks in A3... actually he could lose to Dan. He also loses for
free to Chun Li... her low roundhouse stops every jumping attack of his, except for a
very close jump roundhouse. She has tons more speed and priority on the ground, he has
no chance.
Ace-ISM
Milo D. Cooper wrote in message <36A124EA...@milos-chalkboard.net>...
> She's underrated. In fact, I probably give people more trouble
>with her than with any of my other regular chracters. The recovery
>on the leaping kick is sick, and at close range you can use it to
>get on the opposite side of your opponent, which is special hell on
>charge characters. Cammy *wishes* she had a lateral attack that
>good (cannon drill is crap), and Juni wishes she didn't have to
>charge her drill, which has inferior range and recovery.
Well ... Juni does have a teleport she can use to switch sides, and besides,
once you've got a charge (which good people will have nearly all the time
anyways), reaction to execution time is smaller ... and besides her SPD is
fun =))
About Juli's leaping kick thing ... if it's blocked I thought you can always
get punished? That thing has lag on it too doesn't it?
--
Ace-ISM
http://karin.gamespage.com
"Would you like to be my servant? You can start right now!"
-
Kao Megura
<mi...@milos-chalkboard.net> wrote:
> >> Anyone vs. Dan
> >
> > Oh please... Dan is weak but few characters absolutely kill him... he's
got a good
> > corner VC and jumping short is good, pushblock, and air gale kick...
>
> His priority sucks, his uppercut sucks, his projectile sucks, and
> his recovery sucks. The air gale kick is decent if your opponent
> jumps, which isn't necessary, ever. Who doesn't destroy Dan, and why?
Uppercut does great damage, use it in two-in-ones. LK gale kick is good on
ground or in air for avoiding stuff or smacking people, and it has good
priority. HK and MK ground gale kicks are also comboable for good damage.
Pushblock prevents you from getting gc'd, even if your foe is VC'ing you,
and since you can use it in air, you can prevent people from jumping in on
you. L3 Koryuryuurekka does virtually the same damage as his desperation,
but is faster and has more priority. Standing strong does great GC damage,
crouching strong for anti-air, jumping LK for air-to-air combat. Don't
ever use the fb or super fb, they suck. LP Gadouken is good for negating
fireballs, that's all.
I don't think I've had enough experience vs. good players to refute players
like you, Milo, I'm just giving my opinion. If you've got a point to make,
I'd love to hear it so that I can play a better Dan ^^;
= Kao Megura =
"I don't like Dan at all. I've come to the conclusion that
I really despise the shotos, even half-assed ones." - Ultima
Let Dan humiliate you at: i.am/kao
Tell me why Dan rules at: kmegura (at) hotmail (dot) com
Chocobo
> In article <36A124EA...@milos-chalkboard.net>,
> "Milo D. Cooper" <mi...@milos-chalkboard.net> wrote:
> > >> Adon vs. Sagat
> > >
> > > How does this work?
>
> I was just about to ask this too, Chocobo beat me to it..
>
> Milo says:
> > Low fierce if Sagat jumps in or throws a high tiger, roundhouse
> > jaguar kick at medium range hits most of Sagat's moves and trades
> > with the rest, straight-up jumping strong, forward, or roundhouse
> > at medium range in case Sagat tries anything, jagaur knee beats
> > all of Sagat's jump-ins.
>
> Your entire reasoning for why Adon beats Sagat "for free" is based on a
> jump-happy Sagat that does a "high" tiger within medium to close range! Have
> people forgotten how to play Sagat? Granted he's no powerhouse or top tier
> character, but no way does Adon win this fight "for free". The roundhouse
> jaguar kick, done at the right range, gives _any_ character something to
> think about.
Still, Sagat has almost no chance of winning at all.
> Is there such a thing as a matchup that's "for free?" Unbalanced, yes, but
> there is still a chance that Y will beat X.
>
> I'm not one discussing matchups since I'll always believe that anyone has a
> chance against anyone, no matter how remote that chance may be.
Cammy vs T.Hawk in SSF2- she can do low forward all day long, then cannon spike
if he jumps. Dhalsim vs Zangief in almost any game. A character with a special
throw or super throw vs Hugo. Ibuki vs half the chars in 2i. Ken and Ryu vs Honda
in most SF2 games. There are tons of them.
> Who honestly
> thought Guy was worth a damn before they saw Daigo in action?
Quite a few people did.
falco...@my-dejanews.com
kme...@hotmail.com (Kao Megura) wrote:
> Uppercut does great damage, use it in two-in-ones. LK gale kick is good on
> ground or in air for avoiding stuff or smacking people, and it has good
> priority. HK and MK ground gale kicks are also comboable for good damage.
> Pushblock prevents you from getting gc'd, even if your foe is VC'ing you,
> and since you can use it in air, you can prevent people from jumping in on
> you. L3 Koryuryuurekka does virtually the same damage as his desperation,
> but is faster and has more priority. Standing strong does great GC damage,
> crouching strong for anti-air, jumping LK for air-to-air combat. Don't
> ever use the fb or super fb, they suck. LP Gadouken is good for negating
> fireballs, that's all.
Honestly, I haven't had any problem using Gadokens in combos (at least until
I figure out how to combo a Dankuukyaku in a ground combo, which I haven't
done yet...sigh), other than the obvious problem with using anything higher
than a jab Gadoken (play against computer Sagat with full meter for an
example).
It also can work well as a stuff/insult against attacking players, as long as
you reserve it for opponents in front of you and not too far above. Good
moves to use a Gadoken to counter are Shoto spin kicks of any kind, Rolento
long jumps from more than half screen, and the Jaguar Tooth.
As for the Shinkuu Gadoken, it's fair antiair against opponents that are a
bit outside Kouryuurekka range (level for level, it has more range), but not
much better. Do NOT use it against overhead opponents, and it is also
generally worthless against regular fireballs (it tends to hit the
outstretched hand once, then get blocked).
I personally prefer level 1 Kouryuurekka for a 3 hit, invincible antiair
anyway.
> I don't think I've had enough experience vs. good players to refute players
> like you, Milo, I'm just giving my opinion. If you've got a point to make,
> I'd love to hear it so that I can play a better Dan ^^;
Then again, I'm not really that good of a player, more of a novelty that
manages to beat a lot of players.
FalconPain
Overall annoying "Dan and the Third Row" player
Dan and Birdie are not "for free", people! They're just at a major discount!
myk...@my-dejanews.com
> >
> > How does this work?
I was just about to ask this too, Chocobo beat me to it..
Milo says:
> Low fierce if Sagat jumps in or throws a high tiger, roundhouse
> jaguar kick at medium range hits most of Sagat's moves and trades
> with the rest, straight-up jumping strong, forward, or roundhouse
> at medium range in case Sagat tries anything, jagaur knee beats
> all of Sagat's jump-ins.
Your entire reasoning for why Adon beats Sagat "for free" is based on a
jump-happy Sagat that does a "high" tiger within medium to close range! Have
people forgotten how to play Sagat? Granted he's no powerhouse or top tier
character, but no way does Adon win this fight "for free". The roundhouse
jaguar kick, done at the right range, gives _any_ character something to
think about.
My understanding was that the words "for free" are used to describe a
situation where X beats Y uncontested. In other words, there's nothing that Y
can do which will stop or prevent X. It doesn't only apply to matchups
either. Example, you block Ryu's fireball from point-blank range, you can
super him "for free". I heard someone in #capcom mention that if someone
techs out of your throw in the corner, then you can super them "for free".
I'm sure there are other situations like these.
Is there such a thing as a matchup that's "for free?" Unbalanced, yes, but
there is still a chance that Y will beat X.
I'm not one discussing matchups since I'll always believe that anyone has a
chance against anyone, no matter how remote that chance may be. Who honestly
thought Guy was worth a damn before they saw Daigo in action?
--
m y k e
shut up and fight!
James Margaris
>>> "Milo D. Cooper" wrote:
>>>
>>> Strange, I don't remember fighting any Zangiefs at that (dull)
> tournament,
>>> except for Jason Wilson's, to whom I lost because I didn't think that he'd
>>> keep jumping in on me (I have to stop giving people intellectual credit --
>>> my winning percentage would definitely go up).
This is just about the lamest justification I have ever read.
James M
David Wright
On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:36:00 -0800, "MCTek" <jump...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Blanka's electricity and R.Mika, for free!!
She can do any of the following:
Duck Short-just don't do it TOO close
Punch Super-interesting tourney experience with this and elextricity :P
720 Super-you gotta be close but not too close..plus you can't really whiff any
attacks that close..but if you are you could always jump up and try it if they
are stupid or something..i'm not saying it's practical, but it works :)
13 Peach Special Super from far away
She also might be able to do a slide from maximum distance, but I need to double
check on that.
> Zangief and R.Mika, for free!!
Standing Jab beats the Splash, and jump jab works well against the knees unless
they are right on top of you, duck forward works for his jump attacks from far
away as well. It is definately still in Zangief's favor of course, but hardly
"for free" :P
Milo D. Cooper
> jump-happy Sagat that does a "high" tiger within medium to close range!
That kind of Sagat and any other kind. He can't throw low tigers
from any range; at long range he gets hit by the jaguar tooth or forward
jaguar kick, and the forward and roundhouse jaguar kicks at medium range.
The high tiger, most useful as defense against the jaguar tooth, is
useless at closer than long range, for the reasons I cited earlier. Even
then, he has to throw the jab tiger (or the strong tiger, occasionally),
since Adon's tooth will clear a fast tiger and hit Sagat in the head (or
the extended arm). Sagat has no long range game vs. Adon, while Adon can
hit Sagat with his special kicks from anywhere on the screen, with little
or no reprisals. At medium range, Adon's low fierce hits all of Sagat's
standing attacks, and RH JK is both totally safe against Sagat's low
attacks (which, as we all know, come out shamefully slowly) and a trader
with the tiger uppercut, if it doesn't hit cleanly at that. Sagat gets
destroyed. I'm not even enjoying this discussion.
> Have
> people forgotten how to play Sagat? Granted he's no powerhouse or top tier
> character, but no way does Adon win this fight "for free". The roundhouse
> jaguar kick, done at the right range, gives _any_ character something to
> think about.
How does that statement defeat my argument? I cited the RH JK as one
of several reasons that Adon wins the match without effort, not the only
reason. If Sagat *didn't* have to worry about the RH JK, it would be
that much less of a "free" fight for Adon (in fact, it probably wouldn't
be free at all).
If you're through nay-saying, perhaps you'd care to offer a shred of
evidence that Sagat has a chance in this fight. You sure as sh*t haven't
come up with anything yet, beyond completely unsupported disbelief. I
play both characters; do you play either?
> My understanding was that the words "for free" are used to describe a
> situation where X beats Y uncontested. In other words, there's nothing that Y
> can do which will stop or prevent X. It doesn't only apply to matchups
> either. Example, you block Ryu's fireball from point-blank range, you can
> super him "for free". I heard someone in #capcom mention that if someone
> techs out of your throw in the corner, then you can super them "for free".
... Which isn't always true, anyway. Some characters have aerial supers
that would get them out of that, and there are always aerial VC's. T.Hawk
probably wouldn't get hit at all, with his tech-into-dive.
> I'm sure there are other situations like these.
>
> Is there such a thing as a matchup that's "for free?" Unbalanced, yes, but
> there is still a chance that Y will beat X.
Only if X is a suck-ass player, or bored.
> I'm not one discussing matchups since I'll always believe that anyone has a
> chance against anyone, no matter how remote that chance may be. Who honestly
> thought Guy was worth a damn before they saw Daigo in action?
Many people. In fact, one or two people posted to this newsgroup that
Guy slaughters Dhalsim before Daigo even booked a flight to the States.
Who the f*ck are you, anyway?
Milo D. Cooper
>> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
>>
>> Strange, I don't remember fighting any Zangiefs at that (dull) tournament,
>> except for Jason Wilson's, to whom I lost because I didn't think that he'd
>> keep jumping in on me (I have to stop giving people intellectual credit --
>> my winning percentage would definitely go up).
>
I know you are, but what am I?
MCTek
news:36a2d91b...@news.erols.com...
goes winners first, losers second.
-MCTek
James Margaris
[clip]
>Still, Sagat has almost no chance of winning at all.
>
>> there is still a chance that Y will beat X.
>>
>> chance against anyone, no matter how remote that chance may be.
>
>if he jumps. Dhalsim vs Zangief in almost any game. A character with a special
>throw or super throw vs Hugo. Ibuki vs half the chars in 2i. Ken and Ryu vs
> Honda
>in most SF2 games. There are tons of them.
>
You guys are using "for free" much more liberally then you should. Ken vs
Honda? This is tough but hardly a "free" win for Ken. A good Honda who can
jump straight up over fireballs can put up a good fight and win. THe main
advantage K/R have against Honda is that he has major problems with the
fireball trap, but the trap IS escapable by a good Honda player, so it is
hardly "for free." Dhalsim vs Zangief is tough for Zan but since WW it has
gotten easier, thanks to more vulnerability of Dhalsim limbs. A character with
a special throw against Hugo? WTF? Alex beats Hugo for free? I don't see what
a special throw has to do with anything.
For free is Akuma vs Zan in ST. Simple, predictable strategy, nothing Zan can
do really. For free is not "x beats y 7.5 - 2.5"
James M
Chocobo
> In article <36A2AAC0...@mindspring.com>, Chocobo <cho...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> [clip]
> >Still, Sagat has almost no chance of winning at all.
> >
> >> Is there such a thing as a matchup that's "for free?" Unbalanced, yes, but
> >> there is still a chance that Y will beat X.
> >>
> >> I'm not one discussing matchups since I'll always believe that anyone has a
> >> chance against anyone, no matter how remote that chance may be.
> >
> >Cammy vs T.Hawk in SSF2- she can do low forward all day long, then cannon spike
> >if he jumps. Dhalsim vs Zangief in almost any game. A character with a special
> >throw or super throw vs Hugo. Ibuki vs half the chars in 2i. Ken and Ryu vs
> > Honda
> >in most SF2 games. There are tons of them.
> >
>
> You guys are using "for free" much more liberally then you should. Ken vs
> Honda? This is tough but hardly a "free" win for Ken. A good Honda who can
> jump straight up over fireballs can put up a good fight and win. THe main
> advantage K/R have against Honda is that he has major problems with the
> fireball trap, but the trap IS escapable by a good Honda player, so it is
> hardly "for free."
Kuro already pretty much explained this one... I only meant the first three SF2s, though
Ken and Ryu still win later on. Honda couldn't do anything about fireballs, especially jab
ones. At most he'd get a lucky hit from long range, but the fireball/sweep trap was
unbeatable.
> Dhalsim vs Zangief is tough for Zan but since WW it has
> gotten easier, thanks to more vulnerability of Dhalsim limbs.
It's not impossible... but most all of the time Dhalsim can win just by mashing different
buttons at random. Use him with any amount of skill and it's no contest.
> A character with
> a special throw against Hugo? WTF? Alex beats Hugo for free? I don't see what
> a special throw has to do with anything.
Hugo is a big slow piece of shit, and some throws are unescapable. It takes him a while to
get moving in any direction, especially for jumps. So you can throw him from outside of
his throw range and there's nothing he can do. With super throws, you can do the super
right when he gets up... absolutely nothing he can do. Not to mention that Hugo is a shit
character to start with. I don't even play 2i...
> For free is Akuma vs Zan in ST. Simple, predictable strategy, nothing Zan can
> do really. For free is not "x beats y 7.5 - 2.5"
I know, and that's what I said in my post. I'd say it also includes a bunch more Akuma
fights in ST, and a lot of Super Akuma fights in A3.
Milo D. Cooper
>
> If you really think Adon wins for free it means you think your Adon can beat
> Alex Valle's Sagat. Care to make this claim? Milo, you are getting VERY sloppy
> with your posts. I bet I can beat John Choi, Dave Sirlin, or anybody elses Zan
> with Akuma in ST, hence "for free." The point of something being "for free" is
> that there is basically no way out of it. I'm sure Valle could find a way to
> beat your Adon.
Why? What is it with these totally unsubstantiated claims? If you
think that Adon *doesn't* beat Sagat for free, then contest the points
that I made. An "I bet you're wrong!" answer is almost as cowardly as
name-dropping the USA's best SF player in defense of your completely
substance-free argument. Stop wasting my time with this lazy sh*t.
*I'm* sloppy??
MCTek
>I thought it was obvious that since Adon has so many anti-projectile based
>attacks that clearly the better strategy to apply against him is to _not_
>throw tigers around here and there. "He can't throw low tigers from any
>range" No shit, Sherlock! Having said that though, at long range Adon will
>had difficulty getting over a high tiger shot with either Jag kick/tooth
>(which you state below)..
Well I've always thought a non-CC Sagat is a piece of crap but I'll be
more objective here. Seriously, if you read ALL of Milo's post you noticed
he covered it pretty well.
>
>I won't even mention the brain-dead easy method of jumping straight up to
>avoid a full-screen roundhouse jag tooth. Adon whiffs, Sagat lands and
combos
>-- "for free". Ooops, I just mentioned it. Oh, and while I'm on the jag
>tooth, Sagat can hit it _cleanly_ with any strength tiger uppercut, deep
>enough.
If you realize that no dumb ass will throw a tiger a full screen away
why do you think people will use the jaguar tooth when the opponent isn't
doing anything? The jaguar tooth has always been a fake-out move at best.
>> At medium range, Adon's low fierce hits all of Sagat's
>> standing attacks, and RH JK is both totally safe against Sagat's low
>> attacks (which, as we all know, come out shamefully slowly) and a trader
>> with the tiger uppercut, if it doesn't hit cleanly at that.
>> Sagat gets destroyed. I'm not even enjoying this discussion.
>
>Adon's low fierce, when whiffed, can be swept with Sagat's "shamefully
slow"
>roundhouse upon reaction. Granted, it's good anti-air at the correct range,
>but it dies horribly in close range (Adon is sorely missing his df+forward
>anti-air from alpha2). If Sagat is jumping from within close range, what
can
>Adon do? A short Jag knee? If Sagat attacks, he gets hit. But what if Sagat
>didn't attack and blocks the Jag knee. Adon eats big damage "for free".
Why would you do JUST a jag-knee? First of all, a short jab knee will
allow Adon enough recovery time to not get punished. Second, even in Alpha
2 it's customary (for me) to buffer the jag knee after a standing jab or
strong. In Alpha 3 it's even better, since you can do the jutting kick, and
then a lot more options open up.
>> How does that statement defeat my argument? I cited the RH JK as one
>> of several reasons that Adon wins the match without effort, not the only
>> reason. If Sagat *didn't* have to worry about the RH JK, it would be
>> that much less of a "free" fight for Adon (in fact, it probably wouldn't
>> be free at all).
>
>I think I've had my say on why the RH JK does not automatically mean the
>matchup against Sagat is "for free".
Err...stop it. You guys are agreeing with each other.
>It's like saying X beats Y "for free" because Y has no brain. Anyway,
>hopefully I've supplied enough reasons which support my disbelief to your
>satisfaction.
>
>..and I play both characters as well.
And I play all the characters except for Chun li. Doesn't mean I need
to in order to find out that Chun-li's jumping short is bullshit.
>[snip]
>
>> > Is there such a thing as a matchup that's "for free?" Unbalanced, yes,
but
>> > there is still a chance that Y will beat X.
>>
>> Only if X is a suck-ass player, or bored.
>
>..or mistakingly gives his opponent intellectual credit? *cough*
People!! People!!
>> Who the f*ck are you, anyway?
>
>What does it matter? Do you need to know who I am, who my friends are, and
>what I have achieved before you decide whether or not I might be full of
>shit? Is that how you respond to anyone who holds a different view to
yours?
>Are you better than me? Why are you so bitter?
Are you asking yourself?
Clearly this sub-thread has been burnt to hell with the flames of hatred.
Dramatics aside, I'd like to end this particular post by stating that MAYBE
Adon beats Sagat for free, and MAYBE Adon DOESN'T, but it doesn't matter
because everyone is moving to V-ism, where anything is possible. That is
all.
Also, I find "no shit Sherlock" to be humorous but inappropriate.
-MCTek
James Margaris
[clip]
If you really think Adon wins for free it means you think your Adon can beat
Alex Valle's Sagat. Care to make this claim? Milo, you are getting VERY sloppy
with your posts. I bet I can beat John Choi, Dave Sirlin, or anybody elses Zan
with Akuma in ST, hence "for free." The point of something being "for free" is
that there is basically no way out of it. I'm sure Valle could find a way to
beat your Adon.
James M
Viscant
>a special throw has to do with anything.
Uh...last time I checked this is one of the uglier matchups in the game.
Basically the main reason is because Hugo can't jump out of special throws like
the Hyper Bomb. So with Alex, just dash in and cancel into the bomb. Unless
you've already lifted off, you're meat. Alex also never needs to get into
Hugo's throw range. Ever. Although, yeah, keeping with the true definition of
"for free" this isn't. Maybe Alex just beats Hugo for "a low, low,
once-in-a-liftetime bargain price."
Kuro
>You guys are using "for free" much more liberally then you should. Ken vs
>Honda? This is tough but hardly a "free" win for Ken. A good Honda who can
>jump straight up over fireballs can put up a good fight and win. THe main
>advantage K/R have against Honda is that he has major problems with the
>fireball trap, but the trap IS escapable by a good Honda player, so it is
>hardly "for free."
Actually, Old Ken eats Honda for lunch in ST. Ken's FB corner traps
are very nasty, especially against Ken players who could do 'walking
hadoukens', because his jab FB is so slow. And either ST Ken still
has such a tremendous advantage over Honda because of the half screen
fierce DP, among the other obvious shoto vs honda advantages. Honda
can't just jump straight up over fireballs against Ken... that's free
damage for Ken.
Ditto for SSF2.
In HF, Ken maintains the relatively same strength, Honda is much
weaker in this version. Ken and Ryu both destroy Honda.
Ditto for CE.
>For free is Akuma vs Zan in ST. Simple, predictable strategy, nothing Zan can
>do really. For free is not "x beats y 7.5 - 2.5"
Even if only 8-2 (I'd say Ken/Ryu vs Honda at the highest level of
play is 8-2, if not 9-1), that's just about as 'for free' as you're
going to get in most Street Fighter games.
I can't believe I de-lurked for this.
--
Bob Painter
black...@aznet.net
myk...@my-dejanews.com
> > jump-happy Sagat that does a "high" tiger within medium to close range!
>
> That kind of Sagat and any other kind. He can't throw low tigers
> from any range; at long range he gets hit by the jaguar tooth or forward
> jaguar kick, and the forward and roundhouse jaguar kicks at medium range.
I thought it was obvious that since Adon has so many anti-projectile based
attacks that clearly the better strategy to apply against him is to _not_
throw tigers around here and there. "He can't throw low tigers from any
range" No shit, Sherlock! Having said that though, at long range Adon will
had difficulty getting over a high tiger shot with either Jag kick/tooth
(which you state below)..
> The high tiger, most useful as defense against the jaguar tooth, is
> useless at closer than long range, for the reasons I cited earlier.
yet even in mid range (outside of Adon's reach), a high tiger is quite safe
for Sagat. There is certainly nothing "for free" here for Adon. Again, your
argument is based on a weak Sagat strategy - he has no projectile game. IIRC,
he had no projectile game ever since Alpha 1?
> Even
> then, he has to throw the jab tiger (or the strong tiger, occasionally),
> since Adon's tooth will clear a fast tiger and hit Sagat in the head (or
> the extended arm).
What's with you and throwing tigers? Who throws a fierce tiger from close
range against _any_ character outside of a combo? You're just asking for it
if you do.
> Sagat has no long range game vs. Adon, while Adon can
> hit Sagat with his special kicks from anywhere on the screen, with little
> or no reprisals.
Sagat has no long range game, period. Sagat's game in is the mid to close
range. That's the only effective way I've found to play Sagat. He cannot rely
on mixing up tigers as a viable strategy. It doesn't work.
As for Adon's special kicks, please. They suck. If Adon isn't careful on how
he uses them, then he will be punished. As you know, hit stun is much shorter
than block stun, so Sagat (and anyone really) can use this to their
advantage. How? Sagat plays his close to mid-range game, and Adon tries for a
roundhouse jag kick. Sagat does _not_ block it, takes the hit, and replies
with a fierce tiger uppercut -- "for free". Adon does this again, yet this
time eats a level 3 super -- "for free" -- He then looks at the difference in
energy. Do you think he'll do it again? Same applies to the jag tooth. Those
two "special kicks from anywhere on the screen" absolutely suck because of
the horrid lag time during recovery, it's so bad that _any_ character can
just take the hit and reply in kind, again, "for free". The trade-off is so
NOT in Adon's favour.
Let's look at the situation where either attack (jag kick/tooth) is blocked.
If Adon tries to poke with _any_ normal attack afterwards, Sagat's jab tiger
uppercut will beat it -- "for free". In fact, the only thing that will work
in Adon's favour in this situation (attack wise) is a super lvl 2 or greater.
A level 1 super will trade hits.
I won't even mention the brain-dead easy method of jumping straight up to
avoid a full-screen roundhouse jag tooth. Adon whiffs, Sagat lands and combos
-- "for free". Ooops, I just mentioned it. Oh, and while I'm on the jag
tooth, Sagat can hit it _cleanly_ with any strength tiger uppercut, deep
enough.
> At medium range, Adon's low fierce hits all of Sagat's
> standing attacks, and RH JK is both totally safe against Sagat's low
> attacks (which, as we all know, come out shamefully slowly) and a trader
> with the tiger uppercut, if it doesn't hit cleanly at that.
> Sagat gets destroyed. I'm not even enjoying this discussion.
Adon's low fierce, when whiffed, can be swept with Sagat's "shamefully slow"
roundhouse upon reaction. Granted, it's good anti-air at the correct range,
but it dies horribly in close range (Adon is sorely missing his df+forward
anti-air from alpha2). If Sagat is jumping from within close range, what can
Adon do? A short Jag knee? If Sagat attacks, he gets hit. But what if Sagat
didn't attack and blocks the Jag knee. Adon eats big damage "for free".
Back to the roundhouse Jag kick. Totally safe? I've already mentioned how
_any_ character can take the hit and dish back more. The only time it's even
remotely safe is when it _just_ makes contact with you. But guess what? At
that range, it's even easier to make it whiff (with the joystick in neutral,
not blocking) and then you can hit him with your limbs "for free". Oh, it
doesn't always trade with the tiger uppercut either. A jab uppercut, deep
enough, will hit it _cleanly_. A strong uppercut, deep enough, will trade,
but the balance will be in Sagat's favour, especially in a corner since Sagat
remains on his feet while Adon is in the air. Many options here for Sagat.
Not so many for Adon.
> How does that statement defeat my argument? I cited the RH JK as one
> of several reasons that Adon wins the match without effort, not the only
> reason. If Sagat *didn't* have to worry about the RH JK, it would be
> that much less of a "free" fight for Adon (in fact, it probably wouldn't
> be free at all).
I think I've had my say on why the RH JK does not automatically mean the
matchup against Sagat is "for free".
> If you're through nay-saying, perhaps you'd care to offer a shred of
> evidence that Sagat has a chance in this fight. You sure as sh*t haven't
> come up with anything yet, beyond completely unsupported disbelief. I
> play both characters; do you play either?
As I had I said in my original reply to you:
"Your entire reasoning for why Adon beats Sagat "for free" is based on a
jump-happy Sagat that does a "high" tiger within medium to close range!"
It's like saying X beats Y "for free" because Y has no brain. Anyway,
hopefully I've supplied enough reasons which support my disbelief to your
satisfaction.
..and I play both characters as well.
[snip]
> > Is there such a thing as a matchup that's "for free?" Unbalanced, yes, but
> > there is still a chance that Y will beat X.
>
> Only if X is a suck-ass player, or bored.
..or mistakingly gives his opponent intellectual credit? *cough*
> > I'm not one discussing matchups since I'll always believe that anyone has a
> > chance against anyone, no matter how remote that chance may be. Who honestly
> > thought Guy was worth a damn before they saw Daigo in action?
>
> Many people. In fact, one or two people posted to this newsgroup that
> Guy slaughters Dhalsim before Daigo even booked a flight to the States.
I'll have to search for those posts because I don't recall anything like
that. The only character that I considered to be the Dhalsim killer was
Rolento, and this is going by popular consensus in the group, tourney
results, etc. But then, I don't want to venture into the topic of bandwagon
characters and smart picks, which Guy definitely is not, seeing as this post
is getting way too long already.
> Who the f*ck are you, anyway?
What does it matter? Do you need to know who I am, who my friends are, and
what I have achieved before you decide whether or not I might be full of
shit? Is that how you respond to anyone who holds a different view to yours?
Are you better than me? Why are you so bitter?
Anyway, if you doubt me, or anything I've said about the Adon vs Sagat
matchup, go and try it yourself. Then you can come back here and abuse me
some more, 'kay?
j...@my-dejanews.com
> > This is just about the lamest justification I have ever read.
>
> I know you are, but what am I?
ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Since most people on this group were not here at the time of Ming, I will
provide a little background. About 2 years ago now, Milo Cooper and James
Margaris (who has STILL not contributed ONE BIT of SF knowledge to the group)
had a excessively long drawn out flamewar. An absolutely hilarious parody of
it was done by one Umari Yousufi. Part 2 of it (I can't find part 1) can be
found at
http://x16.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=142123618.1&CONTEXT=916735462.1010499849&hi
tnum=11
Of the many threads that ensued, two of the funniest were Ming's flames of
Milo and James. I highly encourage you, if you have the time, to check out
the related threads on DejaNews. In any case, here is, reposted for
completeness, Ming's manhandling of poor James...
(this post can be found at)
http://x13.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=142500435&CONTEXT=916734809.395968710&hi
tnum=14
--Begin Repost---
Ming:[I feel depressed, bored, and listless today. I'll check the internet.]
Newsgroups: alt.games.sf2
Subject: Re: A.g.sf2 MiSTing -- Part (1/2)
Ming: [Ooooo... Juicy...]
[WARNING - THIS POST CONTAINS FLAMES BETWEEN TWO CONSENTUAL ADULTS.
IF THIS KIND OF MATERIAL OFFENDS YOU, PLEASE HIT 'N' NOW!]
- Sen. Majority Leader Bob Dole
^L
Note to the beginning reader: I have taken the liberty to translate
a snippet of writing from the genius, physicist, gymnast, certified
Chrysler automotive mechanic, and poet laureate, Mr. James Margaris,
b.1976-????. In this episode, Mr. Margaris tackles wits with one
obscure net-peon who calls himself "Ming". I have offered the beginning
reader this translation because the complexity and subtlety of Mr.
Margaris' early writings cannot be deduced except with careful scrutiny
and expert study in the fields of logic, abstract algebra, matrices,
and soilent properties of bellybutton lint. With my translation, even
the novice reader can enter the steel trap mind of James Margaris and
escape feeling brighter, happier, and more self-confident. Without
further ado, let us journey into the world of James Margaris and
experience first-hand how he publicly whups the stuffing out of a net-peon
before a potential audience of millions of readers. My comments are
inside brackets.
- Prof. Jim J. Bullock III
---
js...@cornell.edu (James Margaris) writes:
>In article <eumingDo...@netcom.com>, eum...@netcom.com (Ming) wrote:
>> jche...@ucla.edu (J Chensor) writes:
>>
>> > First of all, an apology to Milo and James... but DAMN, that was
>> >FUNNY! Haven't laughed that hard (to kill) in a LONG time!!!
>>
>> Apologies? Feh! They earned every word! These two dorks were heavily
>> nuked into obscurity back when this newsfroup actually had content.
[Our beloved James Margaris:]
> Umm..please re-read your last sentence. I think you are mistaken...
[That stupid peon]
I'm sorry, I meant 'idiots' not dorks. Thank you for pointing out my
error.
> But
>> like some recurring entomological cicada nightmare, they returned from
>> their hibernation after a few years to plague us some more.
[Our exalted James Margaris:]
> Ditto for you, huh?
[Translation: I know you are but what am I?]
>> With the stage empty and decrepit, these two swashbucklers burst onto
>> the scene with their a-ragin' hardons jousting and poking each other
>> with vicious and deadly determination. Meanwhile, the old actors off-stage
>> gleefully watched this comic bout as they would watch a scuffle between
>> puppies. The battle lasted as long as it did only because neither moron
>> wielded a weapon mightier than a stale licorice stick. Ahh, the comic
>> beauty of this battle lies not just in the gross display of arrogance
>> and pseudo-intellectualism, but in the ardent fervor with which these two
>> titanic foes stabbed at each other's throats with their wet noodles, each
>> time believing they have decapitated their inferior foil with a single
>> heroic swoop. Alas, six months later, the joke is on them, as they have
>> discovered, and only begrudgingly admit, that they have met ignominious
>> defeat not before the toes of their opponent's words, but by their own words
>> and a third party whose clever fulcrum of wit kills Kills KILLS!
[The mighty and depilatated James Margaris:]
> Heh heh heh. You seem to be guilty of the same sort of behavior as
>we were. I don't want to start the whole thesaurus/50 cent word thing
>again, but are'nt you making as big a fool out of yourself as we were?
[Translation: I know you are but what am I?]
>> Take this into heed, witless wonders and arrogant egomaniacs.
[The wholesome and refreshing James Margaris:]
> I hope you're listening to your own advice.
[Translation: I know you are but what am I?]
> This
>> newsgroup is for entertainment, not to display your pathetic penis size
>> to the world, no matter how great and prominent you believe it to be.
[Our brilliant and monumental James Margaris:]
> Feeling kind of small yourself lately, huh?
[Translation: I know you are but what am I?]
>> And if you do, you will invariably, as we have seen, have both your upper
>> and lower heads lopped off by a sharper wit than your own.
[The wonderful and smurfalicious James Margaris:]
> At least we have nothing to fear from you...
[Translation: I know you are but what am I?]
>> Lest we forget the words of Mark Twain:
>> "The penis mightier than the sword."
>>
>> Please remember that the next time you post.
>> Ming
>> --
[The great, throbbing James Margaris:]
> Remember it yourself <expletive deleted>.
[Translation: I know you are but what am I?]
[The clear and effervescent James Margaris:]
>By stooping to the
>level we were at you've demonstrated your own immaturity.
[Translation: I know you are but what am I?]
[That stupid peon again]
Aha! You admit you were immature! Well, I was just pretending. Hah.
[The golden-locked James Margaris:]
>Come join the club, and maybe someone can MST3K this post for you
in a little while. It takes one to know one,
[Translation: I know you are but what am I?]
> James Margaris
[Stupid retort by that peon Ming follows:]
Ming
PS - James: Your favorite retort might have been even *more* effective
than the already devastating impact it had on my ego if you had considered
that I was *parodying* yours and Milo's style and content. So in that vein,
"I'm rubber and you're glue. Whatever you said bounced off me and stuck to
you."
PPS - You also would have found it funnier if you didn't have to look up
'parody' just now.
* end of transcript *
---
Ming: [Why do I feel so suddenly refreshed?]
--
Eu-Ming Lee eum...@netcom.com mi...@interaccess.com
---End Repost---
-Julien
Milo D. Cooper
>> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
>>> myk...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Low fierce if Sagat jumps in or throws a high tiger, roundhouse
>>>> jaguar kick at medium range hits most of Sagat's moves and trades
>>>> with the rest, straight-up jumping strong, forward, or roundhouse
>>>> at medium range in case Sagat tries anything, jagaur knee beats
>>>> all of Sagat's jump-ins.
>>>
>>> Your entire reasoning for why Adon beats Sagat "for free" is based on a
>>> jump-happy Sagat that does a "high" tiger within medium to close range!
>>
>> That kind of Sagat and any other kind. He can't throw low tigers
>> from any range; at long range he gets hit by the jaguar tooth or forward
>> jaguar kick, and the forward and roundhouse jaguar kicks at medium range.
>
> I thought it was obvious that since Adon has so many anti-projectile based
> attacks that clearly the better strategy to apply against him is to _not_
> throw tigers around here and there. "He can't throw low tigers from any
> range" No shit, Sherlock! Having said that though, at long range Adon will
> had difficulty getting over a high tiger shot with either Jag kick/tooth
> (which you state below)..
What's the point of that paragraph? It sounds to me like you're
trying to mask admitting that one facet of my argument is correct by
claiming that it's obvious. Of course, the obviousness of it doesn't
make it any less true, nor does it make the fight any easier for Sagat.
>> The high tiger, most useful as defense against the jaguar tooth, is
>> useless at closer than long range, for the reasons I cited earlier.
>
> yet even in mid range (outside of Adon's reach), a high tiger is quite safe
> for Sagat. There is certainly nothing "for free" here for Adon. Again, your
> argument is based on a weak Sagat strategy - he has no projectile game. IIRC,
> he had no projectile game ever since Alpha 1?
There are several characters without projectile moves at all that have
very good long-range games (Adon is one of them). Likewise, Sagat's tigers
are much more effective against characters who aren't Adon, such as the
grapplers. They still have effectiveness as pressure moves in some matches.
Against Adon, though, they're almost useless. That's been my point.
>> Even
>> then, he has to throw the jab tiger (or the strong tiger, occasionally),
>> since Adon's tooth will clear a fast tiger and hit Sagat in the head (or
>> the extended arm).
>
> What's with you and throwing tigers? Who throws a fierce tiger from close
> range against _any_ character outside of a combo? You're just asking for it
> if you do.
I was talking about long range, not close range. This should have
been obvious from the layout of my response: I spoke first of Sagat's
long-range options, then I moved in to his closer ranges.
>> Sagat has no long range game vs. Adon, while Adon can
>> hit Sagat with his special kicks from anywhere on the screen, with little
>> or no reprisals.
>
> Sagat has no long range game, period. Sagat's game in is the mid to close
> range. That's the only effective way I've found to play Sagat. He cannot rely
> on mixing up tigers as a viable strategy. It doesn't work.
The hell it doesn't. The tigers from far away aren't as massive as
they were before Alpha One, but he can still use them to cut off his
opponents' attack avenues. Throwing slow high tigers at Adon from long
range is just one example of this. What the f*ck kind of Sagat do you
play that you try to get in on someone without forcing the situation
into your favor by throwing tigers from far away? What are you going
to do against a Honda, or a Dhalsim, or a Chun Li, or any other
character with dashing attacks or normals that beat yours "for free"?
Without his fireballs, Sagat would never get in close at all.
> As for Adon's special kicks, please. They suck. If Adon isn't careful on how
> he uses them, then he will be punished. As you know, hit stun is much shorter
> than block stun, so Sagat (and anyone really) can use this to their
> advantage. How? Sagat plays his close to mid-range game, and Adon tries for a
> roundhouse jag kick. Sagat does _not_ block it, takes the hit, and replies
> with a fierce tiger uppercut -- "for free". Adon does this again, yet this
> time eats a level 3 super -- "for free" -- He then looks at the difference in
> energy. Do you think he'll do it again? Same applies to the jag tooth. Those
> two "special kicks from anywhere on the screen" absolutely suck because of
> the horrid lag time during recovery, it's so bad that _any_ character can
> just take the hit and reply in kind, again, "for free". The trade-off is so
> NOT in Adon's favour.
HAHAHAHAHA! Unless he attacks when Adon is at the top of the JK,
Sagat's uppercuts won't even reach Adon at mid range, even if Adon whiffs
the move! Free super for Adon! At close range, I just play footsie,
since mine is faster and has better priority, and I can even jaguar tooth
with forward, which trades with uppercuts and hits everything else that
Sagat has cleanly. As for doing RH JK's at close range, that's your
impetuosity getting the better of you; I never once claimed that that
was a safe option for Adon (though standing short into RH JK is, in fact,
generally uncounterable).
> Let's look at the situation where either attack (jag kick/tooth) is blocked.
> If Adon tries to poke with _any_ normal attack afterwards, Sagat's jab tiger
> uppercut will beat it -- "for free". In fact, the only thing that will work
> in Adon's favour in this situation (attack wise) is a super lvl 2 or greater.
> A level 1 super will trade hits.
Who cares? I still have better close-range normals. I can throw out
a couple of shorts, jabs, then a forward, and suddenly I don't give a
sh*t that Sagat blocked my move. At worst, he takes block damage and I
get away Scot-free (in fact, Adon can do this against many characters --
it's virtually a totally safe tactic).
> I won't even mention the brain-dead easy method of jumping straight up to
> avoid a full-screen roundhouse jag tooth. Adon whiffs, Sagat lands and combos
> -- "for free". Ooops, I just mentioned it. Oh, and while I'm on the jag
> tooth, Sagat can hit it _cleanly_ with any strength tiger uppercut, deep
> enough.
Of course, none of that applies if Sagat is attacking when the tooth
connects -- which he would be, were he throwing a fireball (as per my
original argument).
>> At medium range, Adon's low fierce hits all of Sagat's
>> standing attacks, and RH JK is both totally safe against Sagat's low
>> attacks (which, as we all know, come out shamefully slowly) and a trader
>> with the tiger uppercut, if it doesn't hit cleanly at that.
>> Sagat gets destroyed. I'm not even enjoying this discussion.
>
> Adon's low fierce, when whiffed, can be swept with Sagat's "shamefully slow"
> roundhouse upon reaction. Granted, it's good anti-air at the correct range,
> but it dies horribly in close range (Adon is sorely missing his df+forward
> anti-air from alpha2). If Sagat is jumping from within close range, what can
> Adon do?
Standing strong. Backward jumping strong. Backward jumping forward.
And...
> A short Jag knee? If Sagat attacks, he gets hit. But what if Sagat
> didn't attack and blocks the Jag knee. Adon eats big damage "for free".
Huh? The blocked knee will repel Sagat, and Adon will land before
Sagat can do anything. The short jaguar knee has one the best special
move recoveries in the game. I've caught people who've been playing
SF for over five years with short jaguar knee, short jaguar knee. You
have *got* to be sh*tting me.
> Back to the roundhouse Jag kick. Totally safe? I've already mentioned how
> _any_ character can take the hit and dish back more.
WtF does taking the hit have to do with the jaguar tooth's ability
to deter someone from throwing projectiles? If you're not Bison and
you're throwing sh*t when Adon does the tooth, you're going to get hit
and you won't be able to retaliate afterward. *That's* the primary
function of the tooth: deterrent, not attack. And it works beautifully
versus Sagat, who can rarely throw anything at Adon -- *unlike he can
against other characters* -- without fear of eating foot.
> The only time it's even
> remotely safe is when it _just_ makes contact with you.
Bullsh*t. How about when Adon hits an airborne opponent with it,
or an opponent in the middle of an attack animation? How unsafe is it
then?
> But guess what? At
> that range, it's even easier to make it whiff (with the joystick in neutral,
> not blocking) and then you can hit him with your limbs "for free". Oh, it
> doesn't always trade with the tiger uppercut either. A jab uppercut, deep
> enough, will hit it _cleanly_. A strong uppercut, deep enough, will trade,
> but the balance will be in Sagat's favour, especially in a corner since Sagat
> remains on his feet while Adon is in the air. Many options here for Sagat.
> Not so many for Adon.
And how do you propose Sagat gets Adon cornered? He can't jump or
throw fireballs at medium range (unlike, say, RyuKenAkuma, who *can*
jump, thanks to the hurricane kick and/or aerial fireballs). He can't
pressure Adon with tiger shots at long range. You've already admitted
both of these.
>> How does that statement defeat my argument? I cited the RH JK as one
>> of several reasons that Adon wins the match without effort, not the only
>> reason. If Sagat *didn't* have to worry about the RH JK, it would be
>> that much less of a "free" fight for Adon (in fact, it probably wouldn't
>> be free at all).
>
> I think I've had my say on why the RH JK does not automatically mean the
> matchup against Sagat is "for free".
Again, the RH JK threat has never been my sole ammunition, so that
statement (and the like ones preceding it) is irrelevant.
>> If you're through nay-saying, perhaps you'd care to offer a shred of
>> evidence that Sagat has a chance in this fight. You sure as sh*t haven't
>> come up with anything yet, beyond completely unsupported disbelief. I
>> play both characters; do you play either?
>
> As I had I said in my original reply to you:
>
> "Your entire reasoning for why Adon beats Sagat "for free" is based on a
> jump-happy Sagat that does a "high" tiger within medium to close range!"
>
> It's like saying X beats Y "for free" because Y has no brain. Anyway,
> hopefully I've supplied enough reasons which support my disbelief to your
> satisfaction.
>
> ..and I play both characters as well.
>
> [snip]
>
>>> Is there such a thing as a matchup that's "for free?" Unbalanced, yes, but
>>> there is still a chance that Y will beat X.
>>
>> Only if X is a suck-ass player, or bored.
>
> ..or mistakingly gives his opponent intellectual credit? *cough*
Of course. This can hardly be offered as proof that one character
isn't trounced by another, though.
>>> I'm not one discussing matchups since I'll always believe that anyone has a
>>> chance against anyone, no matter how remote that chance may be. Who honestly
>>> thought Guy was worth a damn before they saw Daigo in action?
>>
>> Many people. In fact, one or two people posted to this newsgroup that
>> Guy slaughters Dhalsim before Daigo even booked a flight to the States.
>
> I'll have to search for those posts because I don't recall anything like
> that.
Get cracking.
> The only character that I considered to be the Dhalsim killer was
> Rolento, and this is going by popular consensus in the group, tourney
> results, etc. But then, I don't want to venture into the topic of bandwagon
> characters and smart picks, which Guy definitely is not, seeing as this post
> is getting way too long already.
>
>> Who the f*ck are you, anyway?
>
> What does it matter? Do you need to know who I am, who my friends are, and
> what I have achieved before you decide whether or not I might be full of
> shit?
No, but your argument is so weak that some corroboration on your
credentials would very much help me take you seriously.
> Is that how you respond to anyone who holds a different view to yours?
Generally, yes, because I know my sh*t, and people who know *their*
sh*t rarely disagree with me.
> Are you better than me?
Yes. In oh, so many ways.
> Why are you so bitter?
Because I'm sick of little no-name a.g.sf2 turds (as well as the more
well-known turds) spouting their officious sewage.
> Anyway, if you doubt me, or anything I've said about the Adon vs Sagat
> matchup, go and try it yourself. Then you can come back here and abuse me
> some more, 'kay?
I *have* tried it. My Adon has never lost to a Sagat; in fact, the
fight has never even been close. If you come to San Diego, feel free
to show your sh*t.
ck...@hotmail.com
> >WTF? Alex beats Hugo for free? I don't see what
> >a special throw has to do with anything.
>
> Uh...last time I checked this is one of the uglier matchups in the game.
LOL. You said it. This must be the UGLIST match-up in 2i.
> Basically the main reason is because Hugo can't jump out of special throws
like
> the Hyper Bomb. So with Alex, just dash in and cancel into the bomb. Unless
> you've already lifted off, you're meat.
You're forgetting his jab. The godly jab. Everytime someone dashes in I jab on
instinct. If it connects, ..heh.. x3 into super.
> Alex also never needs to get into
> Hugo's throw range. Ever. Although, yeah, keeping with the true definition
of
> "for free" this isn't. Maybe Alex just beats Hugo for "a low, low,
> once-in-a-liftetime bargain price."
It's "for free" imo. Hugo can do nothing to get in range. Alex has his useful
normals and specials. Lop-side by a wide margin.
Disclaimer: YES, I've played this match-up before, YES, I know my sh*t, YES, I
play these two characters, YES, I'm a no-namer, but I can kick butt
nonetheless, YES, pineapple rice is deliclious, YES, 2i ain't sucky at all.
---
Tat
Cody Convicted (yes, a Cody shrine!) at http://members.tripod.com/a3cody
"There are only three kinds of people in the world. Those who can count, and
those who can't." -- some dude
o_ev...@hotmail.com
> > matchup, go and try it yourself. Then you can come back here and abuse me
> > some more, 'kay?
>
> I *have* tried it. My Adon has never lost to a Sagat; in fact, the
> fight has never even been close. If you come to San Diego, feel free
> to show your sh*t.
If I may add a little bit: Remember when I posted about that Thursday Night
Beatdown thing in San Diego? Milo, myself, and most of the other SD players
that read this NG and go to tourneys were there. We were doing random select
for a majority of the matches. Out of sheer randomness, Adon vs. Sagat was
one of the matches. Just like Milo said at the very beginning of the match,
Adon won easily. BTW, this was Milo's Sagat against Mark Zedaker's Adon.
Both are good at Adon and Milo has skills with Sagat, as well.
So, does Adon beat Sagat for free? Yes! No doubt about it. If you play the
match, you'll see it. Sagat may as well let go of the controls. That's how
futile it is.
Onaje Everett
o_ev...@hotmail.com
"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me."
-Philippians 4:13
Tom Cannon
>>
>> If you really think Adon wins for free it means you think your Adon can beat
>> Alex Valle's Sagat. Care to make this claim? Milo, you are getting VERY sloppy
>> with your posts. I bet I can beat John Choi, Dave Sirlin, or anybody elses Zan
>> with Akuma in ST, hence "for free." The point of something being "for free" is
>> that there is basically no way out of it. I'm sure Valle could find a way to
>> beat your Adon.
>
>think that Adon *doesn't* beat Sagat for free, then contest the points
>that I made. An "I bet you're wrong!" answer is almost as cowardly as
>name-dropping the USA's best SF player in defense of your completely
>substance-free argument. Stop wasting my time with this lazy sh*t.
>*I'm* sloppy??
>
I would sure like to hear and pro-Sagat argument, if just for the
amusment it would bring to this dull thread. Except for some Birdie
matches, Sagat vs. Adon is maybe the most lopsided match in the game.
And Milo, the technical term for the above-mentioned "name-dropping" is
"The Allen Klein Defense."
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
Milo D. Cooper
Duly noted, m'lad!
Tom Cannon
>In article <36A307D7...@milos-chalkboard.net>,
> "Milo D. Cooper" <mi...@milos-chalkboard.net> wrote:
>
>yet even in mid range (outside of Adon's reach), a high tiger is quite safe
>for Sagat. There is certainly nothing "for free" here for Adon. Again, your
>argument is based on a weak Sagat strategy - he has no projectile game. IIRC,
>he had no projectile game ever since Alpha 1?
Not quite. Adon can low fierce a high tiger from almost 2/3 of a screen
away. From further away, A-Adon (why would you play any other?) can
super through the high tiger. If you don't have a super, just low strong
3 times while the tiger sails over your head. You build meter and Sagat
get's no advantage from this.
Sagat almost literally can't do anything in this match. He can't low tiger.
He can't high tiger. He can't jump. He can't effectively poke (too slow
walking speed).
Sagat's only hope is to play an absolutely perfect game, using the Tiger
Knee to get in and ticking away _block damage_ with point blank low tigers.
That, or he has to fake Adon into eating a super or big V-combo, then
turtle.
[snip]
>What's with you and throwing tigers? Who throws a fierce tiger from close
>range against _any_ character outside of a combo? You're just asking for it
>if you do.
>
Sagat cannot throw tigers from almost any range. His only safe tigers
are low, point blank (off a 2 in 1) or high and from maximum range
(which just lets Adon charge meter).
>
>As for Adon's special kicks, please. They suck. If Adon isn't careful on how
>he uses them, then he will be punished. As you know, hit stun is much shorter
>than block stun, so Sagat (and anyone really) can use this to their
>advantage. How? Sagat plays his close to mid-range game, and Adon tries for a
>roundhouse jag kick. Sagat does _not_ block it, takes the hit, and replies
>with a fierce tiger uppercut -- "for free".
Yes, let's assume that Adon is stupid. Of course, Adon can low short +
_short_ jag kick from short range, or he can low forward or low fierce from
mid range. Sagat has no counter for either of these except to guess with
an uppercut or super. From really close range Adon can rattle off 3-5
stand shorts in Rolento-like fashion to take off guard meter. Any of
these can be interrupted with a jag-kick if Sagat is blocking, or a
low short + super if he's not.
>Let's look at the situation where either attack (jag kick/tooth) is blocked.
>If Adon tries to poke with _any_ normal attack afterwards, Sagat's jab tiger
>uppercut will beat it -- "for free". In fact, the only thing that will work
>in Adon's favour in this situation (attack wise) is a super lvl 2 or greater.
>A level 1 super will trade hits.
Yes, let's again assume Adon is stupid. This is a guessing game, but
it's in Adon's favor because he is completely safe if he just sits there,
and he is on the offensive. If Sagat does his jab uppercut, Adon can
block it and super for 45% and a cornering of Sagat. If Sagat just sits
there, Adon can repeat the stand-short guard-break press.
>
>I won't even mention the brain-dead easy method of jumping straight up to
>avoid a full-screen roundhouse jag tooth. Adon whiffs, Sagat lands and combos
>-- "for free". Ooops, I just mentioned it. Oh, and while I'm on the jag
>tooth, Sagat can hit it _cleanly_ with any strength tiger uppercut, deep
>enough.
Again, Adon stupidity. Why is Adon doing random jag tooths? Do the
Adons you play really do this? If so, it would explain your belief that
Sagat stands any chance at all in this match.
>Adon's low fierce, when whiffed, can be swept with Sagat's "shamefully slow"
>roundhouse upon reaction. Granted, it's good anti-air at the correct range,
>but it dies horribly in close range (Adon is sorely missing his df+forward
>anti-air from alpha2).
#1: Why would Adon *ever* whiff a low fierce?
#2: From close range the jag knee does quite nicely for air defense. No,
Sagat can not hit him out of a deep short knee.
[big chomp]
---
Tom Cannon
web...@inked.com
poc...@my-dejanews.com
reminding us of the height from which we've fallen:) I only pray that, when
I'm flamed, I can be as great a sacrifice, for the entertainment of the
readers here, as our dear friends.
Ahh... Today will be a good day:c)
Apoc.
In article <781h2k$fl7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
Milo D. Cooper
>
> If I may add a little bit: Remember when I posted about that Thursday Night
> Beatdown thing in San Diego? Milo, myself, and most of the other SD players
> that read this NG and go to tourneys were there. We were doing random select
> for a majority of the matches. Out of sheer randomness, Adon vs. Sagat was
> one of the matches. Just like Milo said at the very beginning of the match,
> Adon won easily. BTW, this was Milo's Sagat against Mark Zedaker's Adon.
> Both are good at Adon and Milo has skills with Sagat, as well.
Of course, I have to add that, later on, Bob and I switched off
with Sagat and totally destroyed poor Mark's X-Adon after his nice
little winning streak. The fight doesn't seem to be quite as "free"
for Adon if he's in X mode, but then, Mark has had very little
experience in this match-up.
Milo D. Cooper
>
> [...]
> WtF does taking the hit have to do with the jaguar tooth's ability
> to deter someone from throwing projectiles?
Sorry, I meant to type jaguar kick, here.
--
/|__Milo D. Cooper________________EverQuest character modeler__|\
\| http://www.milos-chalkboard.net http://www.everquest.com |/
Ultima
[some crap deleted]
> Skill is always the deciding factor...
Not true. In most instances, skill is the deciding factor, but as the
skill levels of two players gets closer, the deciding factors in a match
then fall on the characters that are played. This is because no fighting
game has all characters perfectly balanced.
> Hell I think any of those guys could smoke me with Dan even when I'm using my best character.
*Shrug* Me too, probably. :\ Damn I wish I had some people to play
against in A3. -_-
--
Ultima
http://members.xoom.com/Ultima1 - The Street Fighter RPG Manifesto!
http://members.xoom.com/ShinUltima - U's Ultimate Rambling Page
"If an arcade doesn't have a version of SF or SS in it, then it's not an
arcade"
j...@my-dejanews.com
js...@cornell.edu (James Margaris) wrote:
> You guys are using "for free" much more liberally then you should. Ken vs
Thank you professor. We stand humbled and corrected. In the future, we will be
sure to use "for free" in conservative James Margaris fashion.
> Honda? This is tough but hardly a "free" win for Ken. A good Honda who can
> jump straight up over fireballs can put up a good fight and win. THe main
> advantage K/R have against Honda is that he has major problems with the
> fireball trap, but the trap IS escapable by a good Honda player, so it is
> hardly "for free." Dhalsim vs Zangief is tough for Zan but since WW it has
Ah, the sweet irony. I would love to point out your idiocy, only someone else
has done it much better that I could ever have. For you, in your typical
ape-like mimicry of popular opinions of the group and hiding behind big
names, have just had the rug pulled out from under you. Now why does James
Margaris think that "A good honda who can jump straight up over fireballs can
put up a good fight and win"? Hmmmm?? Why? Because you are hiding behind
statements Bob Painter made years ago about Honda vs Ryu. And since Painter
proved himself by winning the Vegas ST tourney with his honda, you feel quite
safe hiding behind your "I AM QUOTING BOB PAINTER" Shield. Oh who would dare
to contradict James Margaris, who is speaking the words of the great one
himself. Unfortunately for you, the fate of all parrot scrubs has befallen
you. You have just been pissed on by your own god. Bob Painter has just
nicely demonstrated that you don't know what the fuck you are saying.
Oops, what happened now? Where's the "BOB PAINTER" shield? Ignore the man
behind the curtain!
Your silly quoting of fights you don't know anything about has just turned
around and bitten you nicely in the ass.
Oh, and please don't even try to respond with something like "I thought Honda
could beat Ken before Bob said anything". No. No one on this group took honda
seriously before Bob won the vegas tourney except the sunnyvale players. Even
reports of Geno, the resident sunnyvale honda player, were mostly ignored by
the group and dismissed. Bob brought credibility to honda in ST, so don't
even try to lie and claim you thought otherwise.
> gotten easier, thanks to more vulnerability of Dhalsim limbs. A character with
> a special throw against Hugo? WTF? Alex beats Hugo for free? I don't see what
> a special throw has to do with anything.
>
> For free is Akuma vs Zan in ST. Simple, predictable strategy, nothing Zan can
> do really. For free is not "x beats y 7.5 - 2.5"
You pathetic little ape. Again, hiding behind the only shield you know. That
of popular group opinion. At least Allen Klein had the sense to hide behind
statements that were generally correct (even though he didn't know why). In
one post, two of your statements are being dismantled for the farce they are
(Honda vs Ken is not a free win) - dismantled by Painter, he whom you just
quoted.
(Huga vs Alex is not a free win) - dismantled by many people who actually KNOW
WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT
Crawl back into your little cave. You've ridiculed yourself so completely
over the past 3 years on this group that it's not even funny anymore.
Parrotlike mimicry was unfunny and stupid with Klein, and it's worse with
you. Shut up and go home.
> James M
Julien Beasley
Da Mizer
James Margaris
I agree with what you've said, however clearly these wins are not for free.
(Especially given that Ken Fierce DP only does 1 pixel line of damage)
>Even if only 8-2 (I'd say Ken/Ryu vs Honda at the highest level of
>play is 8-2, if not 9-1), that's just about as 'for free' as you're
>going to get in most Street Fighter games.
>
>I can't believe I de-lurked for this.
Believe it. What else are you going to respond to? "How do I do the Raging
Demon?" :)
James M
James Margaris
[clip]
>I would sure like to hear and pro-Sagat argument, if just for the
>amusment it would bring to this dull thread. Except for some Birdie
>matches, Sagat vs. Adon is maybe the most lopsided match in the game.
>
>And Milo, the technical term for the above-mentioned "name-dropping" is
>"The Allen Klein Defense."
>
>---
>Tom Cannon
>web...@inked.com
Read what I wrote to Milo. He will eventually admit that my "name dropping"
really was a valid argument, the point being that if a win is "for free"
almost anyone using a lame strategy can beat a really good player. I used
Valle because he has the most famous Sagat. If Milo can beat Valle Sagat 9-1
then I will agree that it is for free. Nowhere did I imply that Valle agreed
with me in the least, or that he is a close friend of mine, or that I've ever
talked to him, blah blah blah.
Is that too terribly difficult to grasp?
James M
James Margaris
>
> There are several characters without projectile moves at all that have
>very good long-range games (Adon is one of them). Likewise, Sagat's tigers
>are much more effective against characters who aren't Adon, such as the
>grapplers. They still have effectiveness as pressure moves in some matches.
>Against Adon, though, they're almost useless. That's been my point.
If you two could agree on the meaning of a long range game it might
help. You you say Balrog has a good long range game because he has a dashing
punch, even though doing it brings him into close range? When most people
think of "long range game" they think of one character staying back and
fighting from far away, not that one character has a move that hits from long
range. All of Adon's long range attacks (besides faked moves) that are going
to hit are also going to take him out of long range. I suppose you could say
that at long range he has some options or can avoid fireballs, but that is
really not a big issue, since anyone can easily avoid a Sagat fireball.
Sagat has no long rang game against anyone. His Tigers are sooo slow
from far away anyone can avoid them, or just purposely walk into them to take
less damage than blocking. Throwing tiger shots from far is a horrible
strategy, since it allows your opponent to build meter. Especially in V mode,
they have time to whiff 1 throw (maybe two) jump and whiff an air throw
(actaully, I don't know for sure that this builds meter) then miss at least 1
more after they land but before the next shot comes out. Each shot = 2-4 whiff
throws. In A2 throwing long range tigers was crap for the same reason. Your
opponent builds meter, and even if they eat a couple they get enough to CC and
then you are up shit creek.
[clip]
>
>>> Sagat has no long range game vs. Adon, while Adon can
>>> hit Sagat with his special kicks from anywhere on the screen, with little
>>> or no reprisals.
>>
>> Sagat has no long range game, period. Sagat's game in is the mid to close
>> range. That's the only effective way I've found to play Sagat. He cannot rely
>> on mixing up tigers as a viable strategy. It doesn't work.
>
> The hell it doesn't. The tigers from far away aren't as massive as
>they were before Alpha One, but he can still use them to cut off his
>opponents' attack avenues. Throwing slow high tigers at Adon from long
>range is just one example of this.
Dude, what the fuck is the point of throwing slow high tigers? They
can walk forward, whiff some throws, duck and do a low attack (more meter),
whiff more throws, and what do you do? Walk forward a little? hardly worth it.
"Cut off attack avenues" ?? The way to get in on someone with Sagat is to walk
(or Tiger Knee) forward and be ready to uppercut a jump in. LONG RANGE TIGERS
ARE USELESS. Utterly useless. They have been since A1. In A2 the only reason I
could think of to throw a long range tiger was to get someone to jump into a
tiger genocide, but the meter building you allow your opponent is just not
worth it.
> What the f*ck kind of Sagat do you
>play that you try to get in on someone without forcing the situation
>into your favor by throwing tigers from far away? What are you going
>to do against a Honda, or a Dhalsim, or a Chun Li, or any other
>character with dashing attacks or normals that beat yours "for free"?
>Without his fireballs, Sagat would never get in close at all.
What the hell? What the fuck kind of Sagat do you play? Long range
Tigers against Chun-Li? Why? What is the point? Against Honda? ? As prevention
against a headbutt maybe? You can TU the headbutt on reaction. Even I can do
that. Maybe by long range you mean medium range? Like just outside/inside
sweep. It's not worth it then either, cause if they jump you die.
>> As for Adon's special kicks, please. They suck. If Adon isn't careful on how
>> he uses them, then he will be punished. As you know, hit stun is much shorter
>> than block stun, so Sagat (and anyone really) can use this to their
>> advantage. How? Sagat plays his close to mid-range game, and Adon tries for a
>> roundhouse jag kick. Sagat does _not_ block it, takes the hit, and replies
>> with a fierce tiger uppercut -- "for free". Adon does this again, yet this
>> time eats a level 3 super -- "for free" -- He then looks at the difference in
>> energy. Do you think he'll do it again? Same applies to the jag tooth. Those
>> two "special kicks from anywhere on the screen" absolutely suck because of
>> the horrid lag time during recovery, it's so bad that _any_ character can
>> just take the hit and reply in kind, again, "for free". The trade-off is so
>> NOT in Adon's favour.
>
> HAHAHAHAHA! Unless he attacks when Adon is at the top of the JK,
>Sagat's uppercuts won't even reach Adon at mid range, even if Adon whiffs
>the move! Free super for Adon!
I don't get it. Can't Sagat just look and see? It's not like the JK's
are all that fast. If Sagat is far enough away to whiff the TU he shouldn't do
it, instead he can just let Adon whiff, or from closer walk into it on
purpose. I don't understand the above. Do you mean that Adon can hit Sagat in
the head with a JK and then the retaliatory TU will miss? Super then. OK, here
is the rundown:
Close JK: Sagat takes the hit, hits back with TU or Super for more
damage.
Farther JK: Sagat trades with TU, or tries to make Adon whiff. If Adon
gets a little too close Sagat goes to strategy A and if Adon is a little far
Sagat gets him to whiff. This is not foolproof but it works pretty well for
Sagat, especially since he is so tall.
[clip]
>> I won't even mention the brain-dead easy method of jumping straight up to
>> avoid a full-screen roundhouse jag tooth. Adon whiffs, Sagat lands and combos
>> -- "for free". Ooops, I just mentioned it. Oh, and while I'm on the jag
>> tooth, Sagat can hit it _cleanly_ with any strength tiger uppercut, deep
>> enough.
>
> Of course, none of that applies if Sagat is attacking when the tooth
>connects -- which he would be, were he throwing a fireball (as per my
>original argument).
Of course, all of this applies if Sagat was not attacking. SAGAT
SHOULD NOT FIREBALL. That's it. It pains me to say it, but there are very few
times or matchups when Sagat's best plan is a FB.
> WtF does taking the hit have to do with the jaguar tooth's ability
>to deter someone from throwing projectiles? If you're not Bison and
>you're throwing sh*t when Adon does the tooth, you're going to get hit
>and you won't be able to retaliate afterward. *That's* the primary
>function of the tooth: deterrent, not attack.
Deterring FB's with Sagat is bad plan. You want Sagat to FB, since it
his basically his worst move. Sagat FB's are a non-issue in A3 most of the
time.
And it works beautifully
>versus Sagat, who can rarely throw anything at Adon -- *unlike he can
>against other characters* -- without fear of eating foot.
Like I said before, FB = free meter and no damage for opposition.
[clip]
What Sagats do you play against? Jeez. FIREBALL = BAD. Anyway, this
win is hardly for free. (That's what I'm arguing at least) It may be bad, but
not for free.
James M
myk...@my-dejanews.com
The point? Let me try to put it more simply for you:
If your Sagat bases his game around the tiger shot pressure game, then I can
see why you'd say Adon wins for free. Not only is this the wrong way to play
Sagat in general, but even moreso against Adon who's attacks are perfect for
anti-projectile attack and couple this with Sagat's horrible shot recovery
you're just asking to die - for free.
> >> The high tiger, most useful as defense against the jaguar tooth, is
> >> useless at closer than long range, for the reasons I cited earlier.
> >
> > yet even in mid range (outside of Adon's reach), a high tiger is quite safe
> > for Sagat. There is certainly nothing "for free" here for Adon. Again, your
> > argument is based on a weak Sagat strategy - he has no projectile game.
IIRC,
> > he had no projectile game ever since Alpha 1?
>
> There are several characters without projectile moves at all that have
> very good long-range games (Adon is one of them). Likewise, Sagat's tigers
> are much more effective against characters who aren't Adon, such as the
> grapplers. They still have effectiveness as pressure moves in some matches.
> Against Adon, though, they're almost useless. That's been my point.
Agreed! And my point has been that you don't play the tiger shot game against
Adon.
> >> Even
> >> then, he has to throw the jab tiger (or the strong tiger, occasionally),
> >> since Adon's tooth will clear a fast tiger and hit Sagat in the head (or
> >> the extended arm).
> >
> > What's with you and throwing tigers? Who throws a fierce tiger from close
> > range against _any_ character outside of a combo? You're just asking for it
> > if you do.
>
> I was talking about long range, not close range. This should have
> been obvious from the layout of my response: I spoke first of Sagat's
> long-range options, then I moved in to his closer ranges.
You originally said, and I quote:
"Low fierce if Sagat jumps in or throws a high tiger.."
It was not obvious here which range you were talking about. You were
discussing Adon's low fierce against a jump in or a high tiger. The low
fierce will not hit at long range (I don't consider it's hitting range as
long range) and even then, Sagat is stupid to throw a high tiger at anyone
who can hit him from a crouch, no matter what the range.
> >> Sagat has no long range game vs. Adon, while Adon can
> >> hit Sagat with his special kicks from anywhere on the screen, with little
> >> or no reprisals.
> >
> > Sagat has no long range game, period. Sagat's game in is the mid to close
> > range. That's the only effective way I've found to play Sagat. He cannot
rely
> > on mixing up tigers as a viable strategy. It doesn't work.
>
> The hell it doesn't. The tigers from far away aren't as massive as
> they were before Alpha One, but he can still use them to cut off his
> opponents' attack avenues. Throwing slow high tigers at Adon from long
> range is just one example of this. What the f*ck kind of Sagat do you
> play that you try to get in on someone without forcing the situation
> into your favor by throwing tigers from far away?
What are you getting all worked up about? I've already agreed as to the high
tigers _usefulness_, especially against Adon (just read my replies above). I'm
arguing that throwing tiger shots in general is a weak _strategy_ overall, and
it's no surprise that you would conclude Sagat loses for free. What situation
are you hoping to force against Adon? A jump in? More than likely you'll force
him to JKsuper.
> What are you going
> to do against a Honda, or a Dhalsim, or a Chun Li, or any other
> character with dashing attacks or normals that beat yours "for free"?
> Without his fireballs, Sagat would never get in close at all.
We're talking about Adon here.
> > As for Adon's special kicks, please. They suck. If Adon isn't careful on how
> > he uses them, then he will be punished. As you know, hit stun is much
shorter
> > than block stun, so Sagat (and anyone really) can use this to their
> > advantage. How? Sagat plays his close to mid-range game, and Adon tries for
a
> > roundhouse jag kick. Sagat does _not_ block it, takes the hit, and replies
> > with a fierce tiger uppercut -- "for free". Adon does this again, yet this
> > time eats a level 3 super -- "for free" -- He then looks at the difference
in
> > energy. Do you think he'll do it again? Same applies to the jag tooth. Those
> > two "special kicks from anywhere on the screen" absolutely suck because of
> > the horrid lag time during recovery, it's so bad that _any_ character can
> > just take the hit and reply in kind, again, "for free". The trade-off is so
> > NOT in Adon's favour.
>
> HAHAHAHAHA! Unless he attacks when Adon is at the top of the JK,
> Sagat's uppercuts won't even reach Adon at mid range, even if Adon whiffs
> the move! Free super for Adon!
Did you even read what I wrote? All the flaws of the jag kick/tooth, which I
described in detail, will really hurt Adon if he isn't careful as to how he
uses them. And don't tell me that all of Adon's attacks are perfectly placed.
At the end of the day, it's a guessing game after Adon's jag kick or tooth.
If they hit too closely, Adon is punished "for free" -- there is nothing he
can do about it. If they are blocked, it's anyone's game - Sagat's tiger
uppercut will beat any of Adon's fantastic normals, but Adon can Super and
beat Sagat's uppercut, and then again Adon can do nothing but block, maybe
get a whiffed uppercut, etc, etc. You see what I'm saying? This fight ain't
free.
> At close range, I just play footsie,
> since mine is faster and has better priority, and I can even jaguar tooth
> with forward, which trades with uppercuts and hits everything else that
> Sagat has cleanly.
Did you read what I wrote? The tooth will be hit cleanly by a deep uppercut
(I've done it a zillion times). If you throw in a tooth during your footsie
game, I'll see it coming and either uppercut it, jump up, or block it. This
fight ain't free.
> As for doing RH JK's at close range, that's your
> impetuosity getting the better of you; I never once claimed that that
> was a safe option for Adon (though standing short into RH JK is, in fact,
> generally uncounterable).
My impetuousity? Unless you can perfectly place your JKs then the instant you
hit it too close, I'll uppercut you without even thinking about it. The whole
JK/JT game does not make this fight free for Adon.
> > Let's look at the situation where either attack (jag kick/tooth) is blocked.
> > If Adon tries to poke with _any_ normal attack afterwards, Sagat's jab tiger
> > uppercut will beat it -- "for free". In fact, the only thing that will work
> > in Adon's favour in this situation (attack wise) is a super lvl 2 or
greater.
> > A level 1 super will trade hits.
>
> Who cares? I still have better close-range normals. I can throw out
> a couple of shorts, jabs, then a forward, and suddenly I don't give a
> sh*t that Sagat blocked my move. At worst, he takes block damage and I
> get away Scot-free (in fact, Adon can do this against many characters --
> it's virtually a totally safe tactic).
You'll throw out your shorts, jabs and forwards after a blocked JK/JT? Did
you not read what I wrote? An uppercut or super will beat these attacks. My
point is that this little scenario, and the whole damn fight, is not free for
Adon.
> > I won't even mention the brain-dead easy method of jumping straight up to
> > avoid a full-screen roundhouse jag tooth. Adon whiffs, Sagat lands and
combos
> > -- "for free". Ooops, I just mentioned it. Oh, and while I'm on the jag
> > tooth, Sagat can hit it _cleanly_ with any strength tiger uppercut, deep
> > enough.
>
> Of course, none of that applies if Sagat is attacking when the tooth
> connects -- which he would be, were he throwing a fireball (as per my
> original argument).
haha, yes, this all gets back to your original argument and my original reply.
Your Sagat throws fireballs (and eats JK/JTs).. mine doesn't.
> >> At medium range, Adon's low fierce hits all of Sagat's
> >> standing attacks, and RH JK is both totally safe against Sagat's low
> >> attacks (which, as we all know, come out shamefully slowly) and a trader
> >> with the tiger uppercut, if it doesn't hit cleanly at that.
> >> Sagat gets destroyed. I'm not even enjoying this discussion.
> >
> > Adon's low fierce, when whiffed, can be swept with Sagat's "shamefully slow"
> > roundhouse upon reaction. Granted, it's good anti-air at the correct range,
> > but it dies horribly in close range (Adon is sorely missing his df+forward
> > anti-air from alpha2). If Sagat is jumping from within close range, what can
> > Adon do?
>
> Standing strong. Backward jumping strong. Backward jumping forward.
> And...
>
> > A short Jag knee? If Sagat attacks, he gets hit. But what if Sagat
> > didn't attack and blocks the Jag knee. Adon eats big damage "for free".
>
> Huh? The blocked knee will repel Sagat, and Adon will land before
> Sagat can do anything. The short jaguar knee has one the best special
> move recoveries in the game. I've caught people who've been playing
> SF for over five years with short jaguar knee, short jaguar knee. You
> have *got* to be sh*tting me.
My mistake here. The short knee is safe when blocked in the air, but what
about on the ground?
> > Back to the roundhouse Jag kick. Totally safe? I've already mentioned how
> > _any_ character can take the hit and dish back more.
>
> WtF does taking the hit have to do with the jaguar tooth's ability
> to deter someone from throwing projectiles?
Absolutely nothing, which is WHHHYYY I've been saying DON'T THROW PROJECTILES
against Adon since the beginning of this whole damn argument. Don't throw
projectiles and Adon has no anti-projectile game. Leave the careless tiger
shots out of this and talk about something else.
> If you're not Bison and
> you're throwing sh*t when Adon does the tooth, you're going to get hit
> and you won't be able to retaliate afterward. *That's* the primary
> function of the tooth: deterrent, not attack. And it works beautifully
> versus Sagat, who can rarely throw anything at Adon -- *unlike he can
> against other characters* -- without fear of eating foot.
HOORAY! Throwing projectiles (unless they're totally safe (out of range, or in
combo)) are not even a variable to be considered in my Adon vs Sagat equation.
> > The only time it's even
> > remotely safe is when it _just_ makes contact with you.
>
> Bullsh*t. How about when Adon hits an airborne opponent with it,
> or an opponent in the middle of an attack animation? How unsafe is it
> then?
Sorry for not stating the obvious (again). As for hitting you during an
attack, unless it's a counter hit, then Adon better be careful that they
don't recover first.
> > But guess what? At
> > that range, it's even easier to make it whiff (with the joystick in neutral,
> > not blocking) and then you can hit him with your limbs "for free". Oh, it
> > doesn't always trade with the tiger uppercut either. A jab uppercut, deep
> > enough, will hit it _cleanly_. A strong uppercut, deep enough, will trade,
> > but the balance will be in Sagat's favour, especially in a corner since
Sagat
> > remains on his feet while Adon is in the air. Many options here for Sagat.
> > Not so many for Adon.
>
> And how do you propose Sagat gets Adon cornered? He can't jump or
> throw fireballs at medium range (unlike, say, RyuKenAkuma, who *can*
> jump, thanks to the hurricane kick and/or aerial fireballs). He can't
> pressure Adon with tiger shots at long range. You've already admitted
> both of these.
Are you saying Adon will never get cornered? How does any character get
cornered? When they're hit or knocked down then they fall back. When they
block, they're pushed back. Sagat can close in and apply constant pressure to
an opponent through smart use of the tiger knee. After any knockdown, I
always tiger knee to close in. Successive tiger knees are a great way of
closing in real fast and it has near zero recovery time. Are you the type to
stick out a limb when Sagat knees toward you?
> >> How does that statement defeat my argument? I cited the RH JK as one
> >> of several reasons that Adon wins the match without effort, not the only
> >> reason. If Sagat *didn't* have to worry about the RH JK, it would be
> >> that much less of a "free" fight for Adon (in fact, it probably wouldn't
> >> be free at all).
> >
> > I think I've had my say on why the RH JK does not automatically mean the
> > matchup against Sagat is "for free".
>
> Again, the RH JK threat has never been my sole ammunition, so that
> statement (and the like ones preceding it) is irrelevant.
You originally said the "roundhouse jaguar kick at medium range hits most of
Sagat's moves and trades with the rest". Maybe not your sole ammunition, but
if something beats "most" of Sagat's attacks, then showing why this isn't
true (and certainly not "free") is pretty fucking far from being irrelevant
to me and my argument. I'm not going to repeat myself about the flaws in JKs,
nor the JTs for that matter. No way is it free.
> [...]
> >
> >>> Is there such a thing as a matchup that's "for free?" Unbalanced, yes, but
> >>> there is still a chance that Y will beat X.
> >>
> >> Only if X is a suck-ass player, or bored.
> >
> > ..or mistakingly gives his opponent intellectual credit? *cough*
>
> Of course. This can hardly be offered as proof that one character
> isn't trounced by another, though.
So what does prove it? Whatever you might say or propose doesn't mean shit if
it doesn't hold true in a real game. To me, for free means 100% of the time.
What does it mean to you? Maybe we're arguing over different things.
I hope we can both agree here, that the only thing that matters are the people
behind the controls and not what the rankings or a "for free" list might say.
You are proof of this, your Cammy lost to a grappler.
> [...]
> >> Who the f*ck are you, anyway?
> >
> > What does it matter? Do you need to know who I am, who my friends are, and
> > what I have achieved before you decide whether or not I might be full of
> > shit?
>
> No, but your argument is so weak that some corroboration on your
> credentials would very much help me take you seriously.
>
> > Is that how you respond to anyone who holds a different view to yours?
>
> Generally, yes, because I know my sh*t, and people who know *their*
> sh*t rarely disagree with me.
My disagreeing with you means I don't know shit? Whatever.
> > Are you better than me?
>
> Yes. In oh, so many ways.
Oh please.
> > Why are you so bitter?
>
> Because I'm sick of little no-name a.g.sf2 turds (as well as the more
> well-known turds) spouting their officious sewage.
Relax, don't stress out over it. This has been, and will be, going on for
years. Not everyone's going to agree with you all of the time, regardless of
their name, agsf2 status, or any type of bullshit rank.
> > Anyway, if you doubt me, or anything I've said about the Adon vs Sagat
> > matchup, go and try it yourself. Then you can come back here and abuse me
> > some more, 'kay?
>
> I *have* tried it. My Adon has never lost to a Sagat; in fact, the
> fight has never even been close. If you come to San Diego, feel free
> to show your sh*t.
My Sagat has never lost to Adon. So what? If I'm ever in the area, I'll let
you know.
I'm getting tired of this thread. Put simply: this fight ain't free.
James Margaris
>> o_ev...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> If I may add a little bit: Remember when I posted about that Thursday Night
>> Beatdown thing in San Diego? Milo, myself, and most of the other SD players
>> that read this NG and go to tourneys were there. We were doing random select
>> for a majority of the matches. Out of sheer randomness, Adon vs. Sagat was
>> one of the matches. Just like Milo said at the very beginning of the match,
>> Adon won easily. BTW, this was Milo's Sagat against Mark Zedaker's Adon.
>> Both are good at Adon and Milo has skills with Sagat, as well.
>> [...]
>
> Of course, I have to add that, later on, Bob and I switched off
>with Sagat and totally destroyed poor Mark's X-Adon after his nice
>little winning streak. The fight doesn't seem to be quite as "free"
>for Adon if he's in X mode, but then, Mark has had very little
>experience in this match-up.
Oops! Doh! If it was really for free he should have been able to learn
in a few minutes. Anyway, the whole ISM things totally fucks this argument up.
Like I posted earlier, FB's against V ism is a total waste of time. What about
V ism Sagat, does he have a chance? Should we assume he has a Super, that he
has a guard meter? There are at 4 (counting n ism) incarnations of each
character, 16 slightly different matchups. Ugh.
Let's just agree that Adon wins most of the time and is just better
than Sagat, who is just plain horrible.
James M
ps: At least Milo you were man enough to add this tidbit.
James Margaris
> "Milo D. Cooper" <mi...@milos-chalkboard.net> wrote:
>> > James Margaris wrote:
>
>> > This is just about the lamest justification I have ever read.
>>
>> I know you are, but what am I?
>
>ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Since most people on this group were not here at the time of Ming, I will
>provide a little background. About 2 years ago now, Milo Cooper and James
>Margaris (who has STILL not contributed ONE BIT of SF knowledge to the group)
>had a excessively long drawn out flamewar. An absolutely hilarious parody of
>it was done by one Umari Yousufi. Part 2 of it (I can't find part 1) can be
>found at
>
Julian:
You are such a fucking idiot. The last time I "talked" (flamed) with
you the best you could do was make classist slurs about me being a farmer.
Fresh off that amazing bit of repartee you drag up some old shit just to throw
mud at me since you couldn't actually make any sort of logical reply during
our last encounter. Now you have to stoop to using someone else to do your
insulting for you since you are not clever enough to do it yourself.
Milo and I both acted like total idiots for a while and went off on a
horrible tirade that had nothing to do with SF whatsoever. It was retared and
I regret it, (I suspect he does too) and I apologized for it because it was
innapropriate and really just plain stupid.
However, that was almost 4 years ago now. Is this the best you can do?
As for Ming, he is a bloated self-important moron. The last thing he posted on
this NG (that I can remember) was that E Honda low slaps beat all of Chun-Li's
attacks, then quietly faded away when someone told him that was only true in
the original WW.
As for my SF knowlege: What the fuck do you want from me? What SF
knowlege has anyone added to the group in the past 4 or 5 years? I don't mean
a specific combo or something. Most of the engine issues for old games have
been resolved, and the new issues (such as this bullshit VC "neutral state"
stuff) are totally uninteresting. When SF was new there were some cool things
to actually discover. That is no longer the case.
Occasionally I have posted things that I thought were relevant and
new. Example: I was the first person here to point out that Zangief stand
fierce is a near foolproof strategy against Birdie in A2. Does that count?
Nowadays the "knowlege" demostrated is a new combo someone found out,
some insane Guy juggle or VC or whatever. Is that "knowlege?" Is that
interesting knowlege? Am I spelling "knowlege" right?
I was the first on the NG to worr yopenly that A3 would have infinite or
near infinite corner juggles, something that has happened with VC's.
Addmitedly I didn't know it would be VC's, but if you look at the posts made
when A3 was testing I kept saying "what prevents someone from juggling forever
in the corner. What are the rules of juggling exactly?" a question that is
very relevant today and a question that people are still trying to precisely
answer. Is that SF knowlege? Is watching an Earth Sodom combo and reporting
what you saw a demostration of knowlege?
On IRC I was the first (I think) to point out that Akuma's air rolls,
and particularly his air roll punch was much more useful than before. I was
the first (maybe?) to claim that A3 Sagat was crap. I was the first to post
that fireball damage is inversly related to distance.
Why do you bring this up now? The answer is that the last time we
clashed you made an idiot out of yourself, proving yourself totally
incapable of adressing any points or even of understanding the conversation,
instead relying on pointing out spelling mistakes and claiming that I fuck
pigs. Bravo. How old are you?
Like I said before, Seth Killian, Milo, and others have a caustic
attitude but they can at least understand what the fuck other people are
talking about and besides smack talking they have real arguments as well. This
is of course in total contrast to you.
I'm sure you are very proud of yourself for remembering Milo's and my
little encounter YEARS ago and bringing it up at this very self-serving time.
Last, I will say that this pathetic attempt of yours will in the end
incriminate you much more than me. You end up painting yourself as a vengeful
loser trying to dig up old shit 'cause your own brain just can't handle me,
while simultaneously showing that some people (namely myself) are able to
learn and grow from past blunders, while others (namely you) are forever stuck
with their grade school mentality.
Let flow the personal attacks a plenty. Please, what did I mis-spell
this time?
James M
James Margaris
>Margaris (who has STILL not contributed ONE BIT of SF knowledge to the group)
>had a excessively long drawn out flamewar.
I am beginning to think that you must repeat this one thousand times each
night before going to bed.
James M
Jimmie J
wrote:
>In article <36A307D7...@milos-chalkboard.net>, "Milo D. Cooper" <mi...@milos-chalkboard.net> wrote:
>>> myk...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
>
>
>[clip]
>
>If you really think Adon wins for free it means you think your Adon can beat
>Alex Valle's Sagat. Care to make this claim? Milo, you are getting VERY sloppy
>with your posts. I bet I can beat John Choi, Dave Sirlin, or anybody elses Zan
>with Akuma in ST, hence "for free." The point of something being "for free" is
>that there is basically no way out of it. I'm sure Valle could find a way to
>beat your Adon.
>
> James M
Skill is always the deciding factor... Hell I think any of those guys
could smoke me with Dan even when I'm using my best character.
Jimmie
spid...@my-dejanews.com
js...@cornell.edu (James Margaris) wrote:
> Nowadays the "knowlege" demostrated is a new combo someone found out,
> some insane Guy juggle or VC or whatever. Is that "knowlege?" Is that
> interesting knowlege? Am I spelling "knowlege" right?
No. (knowledge)
--
Dan Thompson (SpiderDan)
[send email to] edge [at] chipware [dot] net
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
For those of you who think this jbb@dejanews guy is a f#cking newbie
id-jit, read on.
Translations done by Prof. P.E.T. Uleunt IV, PhD
In article <783gtg$8...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>,
James Margaris <js...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>In article <781h2k$fl7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, j...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>In article <36A30925...@milos-chalkboard.net>,
>> "Milo D. Cooper" <mi...@milos-chalkboard.net> wrote:
>>> > James Margaris wrote:
<ZONK>
> Julian:
>our last encounter. Now you have to stoop to using someone else to do your
>insulting for you since you are not clever enough to do it yourself.
Holy cow. Anyways, [Translation: I know you are but what am I?]
<ZONK>
> However, that was almost 4 years ago now. Is this the best you can do?
>As for Ming, he is a bloated self-important moron. The last thing he posted on
>this NG (that I can remember) was that E Honda low slaps beat all of Chun-Li's
>attacks, then quietly faded away when someone told him that was only true in
>the original WW.
His last post I found on deja was not related to Chun Honda in
any way.
> As for my SF knowlege: What the fuck do you want from me? What SF
>knowlege has anyone added to the group in the past 4 or 5 years? I don't mean
>a specific combo or something. Most of the engine issues for old games have
>been resolved, and the new issues (such as this bullshit VC "neutral state"
>stuff) are totally uninteresting. When SF was new there were some cool things
>to actually discover. That is no longer the case.
1) You don't mean a combo or something, which is just vague
enough to make sure that all possible attacks on this position can be
escaped. Better pedantic than interesting.
2) Most of the engine issues for old games have been resolved.
Funny how you had no part in that.
3) The new bullshit is uninteresting. Thanks, we needed to know
that.
> Occasionally I have posted things that I thought were relevant and
>new. Example: I was the first person here to point out that Zangief stand
>fierce is a near foolproof strategy against Birdie in A2. Does that count?
No, since Zangief destroys Birdie anyways. It's like Ryu vs Elena
in SF3. Just keep pressing stand forward. He didn't need that to beat
her, it just happens to work.
> Nowadays the "knowlege" demostrated is a new combo someone found out,
>some insane Guy juggle or VC or whatever.
More stupidly vague comments made to mask the voluminous amounts
of nothing being posted. Knowledge is a combo or part of the engine or a
feature of the game or everything else which wouldn't fit here. How
brilliantly stupid.
> Is that "knowlege?" Is that
>interesting knowlege?
WE CAN'T TELL JAMES, YOU DON'T LET US KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT. If you keep on posting about somethings and whatevers we never
will; however, I don't suspect that to be a great loss.
>Am I spelling "knowlege" right?
No.
> I was the first on the NG to worr yopenly that A3 would have infinite or
>near infinite corner juggles, something that has happened with VC's.
Even in your most general and non commital posts, you're still
wrong. VCs do not have infinite juggles. They just do lots of damage.
And no, you were not the first one to worry about the juggles, you were
just the first one who decided to waste space with it. First one on the
NG? Have a cookie.
>Addmitedly I didn't know it would be VC's, but if you look at the posts made
>when A3 was testing I kept saying "what prevents someone from juggling forever
>in the corner. What are the rules of juggling exactly?" a question that is
>very relevant today and a question that people are still trying to precisely
>answer. Is that SF knowlege?
No, those are questions. Asking questions is not the same as
posting info.
> Is watching an Earth Sodom combo and reporting
>what you saw a demostration of knowlege?
This section is more difficult due to it's indirectness, however,
the basic pattern of "I know you are but what am I?" is retained.
> On IRC I was the first (I think) to point out that Akuma's air rolls,
>and particularly his air roll punch was much more useful than before. I was
>the first (maybe?) to claim that A3 Sagat was crap. I was the first to post
>that fireball damage is inversly related to distance.
Sagat is ass in A3, no shit! Really? Or is this an in thing?
Akuma's air rolls are more useful in a game with shittier anti-air. Funny
that. And I'd doubt you were the first to note the fireball damage bit.
Maybe you posted the first reply to it and said hells yah I knew that or
some such noninfo.
> Why do you bring this up now? The answer is that the last time we
>clashed you made an idiot out of yourself, proving yourself totally
>incapable of adressing any points or even of understanding the conversation,
>instead relying on pointing out spelling mistakes and claiming that I fuck
>pigs. Bravo. How old are you?
"I know you are but what am I?"
> Like I said before, Seth Killian, Milo, and others have a caustic
>attitude but they can at least understand what the fuck other people are
>talking about and besides smack talking they have real arguments as well. This
>is of course in total contrast to you.
> I'm sure you are very proud of yourself for remembering Milo's and my
>little encounter YEARS ago and bringing it up at this very self-serving time.
Just like you're proud of remembering Seth and Milo's posts? Wow.
> Last, I will say that this pathetic attempt of yours will in the end
>incriminate you much more than me. You end up painting yourself as a vengeful
>loser trying to dig up old shit 'cause your own brain just can't handle me,
>while simultaneously showing that some people (namely myself) are able to
>learn and grow from past blunders, while others (namely you) are forever stuck
>with their grade school mentality.
This too qualifies, I think, as a "I know you are but what am I?"
> Let flow the personal attacks a plenty. Please, what did I mis-spell
>this time?
Right.
>James M
PS - this would be better if you didn't have to go look up pedantic right
now.
--
How do you spell a-n-d?
Milo D. Cooper
>> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
>>> myk...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>>
>>> I thought it was obvious that since Adon has so many anti-projectile based
>>> attacks that clearly the better strategy to apply against him is to _not_
>>> throw tigers around here and there. "He can't throw low tigers from any
>>> range" No shit, Sherlock! Having said that though, at long range Adon will
>>> had difficulty getting over a high tiger shot with either Jag kick/tooth
>>> (which you state below)..
>>
>> What's the point of that paragraph? It sounds to me like you're
>> trying to mask admitting that one facet of my argument is correct by
>> claiming that it's obvious. Of course, the obviousness of it doesn't
>> make it any less true, nor does it make the fight any easier for Sagat.
>
> The point? Let me try to put it more simply for you:
>
> If your Sagat bases his game around the tiger shot pressure game, then I can
> see why you'd say Adon wins for free. Not only is this the wrong way to play
> Sagat in general, but even moreso against Adon who's attacks are perfect for
> anti-projectile attack and couple this with Sagat's horrible shot recovery
> you're just asking to die - for free.
As I've atempted to explain to you more than once, the problem with
this argument is that Alpha Sagat has nothing to employ in lieu of his
absent fireball pressure game. In other words, if you can't rely on
tigers to hamper your opponents offense (and, again, it is definitely
possible to do this against several characters, though none of these
are Adon), what the hell else are you going to do? The most I've
heard you offer is to pray for a super connect, then turtle.
>>> yet even in mid range (outside of Adon's reach), a high tiger is quite safe
>>> for Sagat. There is certainly nothing "for free" here for Adon. Again, your
>>> argument is based on a weak Sagat strategy - he has no projectile game. IIRC,
>>> he had no projectile game ever since Alpha 1?
>>
>> There are several characters without projectile moves at all that have
>> very good long-range games (Adon is one of them). Likewise, Sagat's tigers
>> are much more effective against characters who aren't Adon, such as the
>> grapplers. They still have effectiveness as pressure moves in some matches.
>> Against Adon, though, they're almost useless. That's been my point.
>
> Agreed! And my point has been that you don't play the tiger shot game against
> Adon.
And my response to this has been that you haven't offered dick as an
alternative Sagat strategy, because you know that he has none. All
you've retorted with is that "Sagat can't play far away, he has to play
close," while offering *no* viable method for his coming into that
range and *no* reliable attack plan once he's there. I and several
other people have already told you exactly why Sagat can't get in on
Adon, and why Adon wouldn't even care if Sagat did manage to get in his
face.
>>> What's with you and throwing tigers? Who throws a fierce tiger from close
>>> range against _any_ character outside of a combo? You're just asking for it
>>> if you do.
>>
>> I was talking about long range, not close range. This should have
>> been obvious from the layout of my response: I spoke first of Sagat's
>> long-range options, then I moved in to his closer ranges.
>
> You originally said, and I quote:
>
> "Low fierce if Sagat jumps in or throws a high tiger.."
>
> It was not obvious here which range you were talking about. You were
> discussing Adon's low fierce against a jump in or a high tiger.
If you really do play Adon and you know WtF you're talking about, the
range that I meant *is* very obvious. If Sagat jumps in from anything
but long range (i.e. not just close range), he can be hit with the low
fierce.
> The low
> fierce will not hit at long range (I don't consider it's hitting range as
> long range) and even then, Sagat is stupid to throw a high tiger at anyone
> who can hit him from a crouch, no matter what the range.
Huh? Then what the hell did you mean when you wrote this:
'yet even in mid range (outside of Adon's reach), a high tiger
is quite safe for Sagat. There is certainly nothing "for free"
here for Adon.'
I didn't even have to go back to an old post to get that; it's part
of your excerpts in this one. What's it gonna be, dude? Is the high
tiger "stupid... no matter what the range," or "quite safe"?
>>> Sagat has no long range game, period. Sagat's game in is the mid to close
>>> range. That's the only effective way I've found to play Sagat. He cannot rely
>>> on mixing up tigers as a viable strategy. It doesn't work.
>>
>> The hell it doesn't. The tigers from far away aren't as massive as
>> they were before Alpha One, but he can still use them to cut off his
>> opponents' attack avenues. Throwing slow high tigers at Adon from long
>> range is just one example of this. What the f*ck kind of Sagat do you
>> play that you try to get in on someone without forcing the situation
>> into your favor by throwing tigers from far away?
>
> What are you getting all worked up about? I've already agreed as to the high
> tigers _usefulness_, especially against Adon (just read my replies above).
Let's quote you from above:
'Sagat is stupid to throw a high tiger at anyone who can hit
him from a crouch, no matter what the range.'
You can't make up your damned mind. *That's* what I'm worked up
about (par for the course, with this weak-ass newsgroup).
> I'm
> arguing that throwing tiger shots in general is a weak _strategy_ overall, and
> it's no surprise that you would conclude Sagat loses for free. What situation
> are you hoping to force against Adon? A jump in? More than likely you'll force
> him to JKsuper.
The jab high tiger is effective at keeping Adon from toothing off the
wall. This, at least, alleviates a major portion of Adon's fake-out
game, as well as his highest priority attack. It's not enough to allow
Sagat to win the fight, but it helps.
>> What are you going
>> to do against a Honda, or a Dhalsim, or a Chun Li, or any other
>> character with dashing attacks or normals that beat yours "for free"?
>> Without his fireballs, Sagat would never get in close at all.
>
> We're talking about Adon here.
Not in this part of the debate, we aren't. You said that Sagat's
tiger shot pressuring was worthless across the board. I'm saying
that you're full of it, and that against some characters (though *not*
Adon), his tiger shots, though not as powerful as they were before
the Alpha series, are actually very effective -- in particular, versus
grapplers and characters with lateral dashing attacks.
You're not going to weasal your way out of this thread by being
ambiguous and putting words into my mouth. Why point out that deep
jaguar kicks are potentially answerable when I never once made them
part of my reasoning that this fight is free for Adon? The jaguar
kick is generally a mid-range move, and if your Sagat blocks it, I
*dare* you to do something as stupid as performing an uppercut
immediately (or even not immediately) afterward. The worst that
happens to me is that I do nothing but block damage. I can do a
short jaguar kick in your face and get on the other side of you, and
you *still* won't be able to do jack.
>> At close range, I just play footsie,
>> since mine is faster and has better priority, and I can even jaguar tooth
>> with forward, which trades with uppercuts and hits everything else that
>> Sagat has cleanly.
>
> Did you read what I wrote? The tooth will be hit cleanly by a deep uppercut
> (I've done it a zillion times). If you throw in a tooth during your footsie
> game, I'll see it coming and either uppercut it, jump up, or block it. This
> fight ain't free.
Unless you have me cornered, you can't hit the forward tooth with
a deep uppercut. It won't come close enough. What's more, what if
do a *short* tooth instead of a forward tooth (and I've been known
to do this)? You uppercut, and I smack you for free. What is it
with you and the uppercuts? Are you a mind-reader or something?
>> As for doing RH JK's at close range, that's your
>> impetuosity getting the better of you; I never once claimed that that
>> was a safe option for Adon (though standing short into RH JK is, in fact,
>> generally uncounterable).
>
> My impetuousity? Unless you can perfectly place your JKs then the instant you
> hit it too close, I'll uppercut you without even thinking about it. The whole
> JK/JT game does not make this fight free for Adon.
I'm not going to "hit it too close." Just remember that; it'll save
me from having to wade through your bullsh*t in the future.
>>> Let's look at the situation where either attack (jag kick/tooth) is blocked.
>>> If Adon tries to poke with _any_ normal attack afterwards, Sagat's jab tiger
>>> uppercut will beat it -- "for free". In fact, the only thing that will work
>>> in Adon's favour in this situation (attack wise) is a super lvl 2 or greater.
>>> A level 1 super will trade hits.
>>
>> Who cares? I still have better close-range normals. I can throw out
>> a couple of shorts, jabs, then a forward, and suddenly I don't give a
>> sh*t that Sagat blocked my move. At worst, he takes block damage and I
>> get away Scot-free (in fact, Adon can do this against many characters --
>> it's virtually a totally safe tactic).
>
> You'll throw out your shorts, jabs and forwards after a blocked JK/JT? Did
> you not read what I wrote? An uppercut or super will beat these attacks. My
> point is that this little scenario, and the whole damn fight, is not free for
> Adon.
Hey man, if you want to waste super meter and/or risk losing up to
40% of your life bar doing uppercuts and supers after a blocked
special, go right ahead and die! I'd have a field day with your ass.
>>> I won't even mention the brain-dead easy method of jumping straight up to
>>> avoid a full-screen roundhouse jag tooth. Adon whiffs, Sagat lands and combos
>>> -- "for free". Ooops, I just mentioned it. Oh, and while I'm on the jag
>>> tooth, Sagat can hit it _cleanly_ with any strength tiger uppercut, deep
>>> enough.
>>
>> Of course, none of that applies if Sagat is attacking when the tooth
>> connects -- which he would be, were he throwing a fireball (as per my
>> original argument).
>
> haha, yes, this all gets back to your original argument and my original reply.
> Your Sagat throws fireballs (and eats JK/JTs).. mine doesn't.
So you turtle? Great, I'll turtle too. You still can't jump in,
you still can't beat my faster and higher-priority normals at close
range, you still can't pressure me.
>>> Adon's low fierce, when whiffed, can be swept with Sagat's "shamefully slow"
>>> roundhouse upon reaction. Granted, it's good anti-air at the correct range,
>>> but it dies horribly in close range (Adon is sorely missing his df+forward
>>> anti-air from alpha2). If Sagat is jumping from within close range, what can
>>> Adon do?
>>
>> Standing strong. Backward jumping strong. Backward jumping forward.
>> And...
>>
>>> A short Jag knee? If Sagat attacks, he gets hit. But what if Sagat
>>> didn't attack and blocks the Jag knee. Adon eats big damage "for free".
>>
>> Huh? The blocked knee will repel Sagat, and Adon will land before
>> Sagat can do anything. The short jaguar knee has one the best special
>> move recoveries in the game. I've caught people who've been playing
>> SF for over five years with short jaguar knee, short jaguar knee. You
>> have *got* to be sh*tting me.
>
> My mistake here. The short knee is safe when blocked in the air, but what
> about on the ground?
Yeah, like I'm going to jaguar knee you if you're sitting there in
defensive crouch.
>>> Back to the roundhouse Jag kick. Totally safe? I've already mentioned how
>>> _any_ character can take the hit and dish back more.
>>
>> WtF does taking the hit have to do with the jaguar tooth's ability
>> to deter someone from throwing projectiles?
>
> Absolutely nothing, which is WHHHYYY I've been saying DON'T THROW PROJECTILES
> against Adon since the beginning of this whole damn argument. Don't throw
> projectiles and Adon has no anti-projectile game. Leave the careless tiger
> shots out of this and talk about something else.
Hey, you give me something else to discuss, and we're happening. Tell
me what Sagat has up his sleeve when he can't throw sh*t. Meanwhile, I
can still make use of all of my moves, if only for block damage and
guard crushing.
>> If you're not Bison and
>> you're throwing sh*t when Adon does the tooth, you're going to get hit
>> and you won't be able to retaliate afterward. *That's* the primary
>> function of the tooth: deterrent, not attack. And it works beautifully
>> versus Sagat, who can rarely throw anything at Adon -- *unlike he can
>> against other characters* -- without fear of eating foot.
>
> HOORAY! Throwing projectiles (unless they're totally safe (out of range, or in
> combo)) are not even a variable to be considered in my Adon vs Sagat equation.
>
>>> The only time it's even
>>> remotely safe is when it _just_ makes contact with you.
>>
>> Bullsh*t. How about when Adon hits an airborne opponent with it,
>> or an opponent in the middle of an attack animation? How unsafe is it
>> then?
>
> Sorry for not stating the obvious (again).
Apology not accepted. You need to start covering your bases more.
> As for hitting you during an
> attack, unless it's a counter hit, then Adon better be careful that they
> don't recover first.
It's not hard when you've been playing teh character for three years.
>>> But guess what? At
>>> that range, it's even easier to make it whiff (with the joystick in neutral,
>>> not blocking) and then you can hit him with your limbs "for free". Oh, it
>>> doesn't always trade with the tiger uppercut either. A jab uppercut, deep
>>> enough, will hit it _cleanly_. A strong uppercut, deep enough, will trade,
>>> but the balance will be in Sagat's favour, especially in a corner since Sagat
>>> remains on his feet while Adon is in the air. Many options here for Sagat.
>>> Not so many for Adon.
>>
>> And how do you propose Sagat gets Adon cornered? He can't jump or
>> throw fireballs at medium range (unlike, say, RyuKenAkuma, who *can*
>> jump, thanks to the hurricane kick and/or aerial fireballs). He can't
>> pressure Adon with tiger shots at long range. You've already admitted
>> both of these.
>
> Are you saying Adon will never get cornered? How does any character get
> cornered? When they're hit or knocked down then they fall back.
Unfortunately for that argument, this is Alpha 3, which features air
teching and rolling from knock-downs. As for my getting hit, I'm still
waiting to hear how you do that with a Sagat that never throws anything.
> When they
> block, they're pushed back.
Or they alpha-counter. Or they respond with a super.
> Sagat can close in and apply constant pressure to
> an opponent through smart use of the tiger knee. After any knockdown, I
> always tiger knee to close in. Successive tiger knees are a great way of
> closing in real fast and it has near zero recovery time. Are you the type to
> stick out a limb when Sagat knees toward you?
Finally, a decent response! Yes, the knee is a very good move in
any fight. Sagat doesn't have the footsie game to follow up after it
once it's blocked, but it's still a good attack (fast, good priority,
low recovery). Too bad I can do short jaguar knee, forward tooth,
or short tooth from outside your normal attack range to deter that
attack.
>>> I think I've had my say on why the RH JK does not automatically mean the
>>> matchup against Sagat is "for free".
>>
>> Again, the RH JK threat has never been my sole ammunition, so that
>> statement (and the like ones preceding it) is irrelevant.
>
> You originally said the "roundhouse jaguar kick at medium range hits most of
> Sagat's moves and trades with the rest". Maybe not your sole ammunition, but
> if something beats "most" of Sagat's attacks, then showing why this isn't
> true (and certainly not "free") is pretty fucking far from being irrelevant
> to me and my argument. I'm not going to repeat myself about the flaws in JKs,
> nor the JTs for that matter. No way is it free.
You haven't showed jack sh*t! You've offered almost nothing but the
laziest response in the world: "a deep uppercut hits it." What *else*
are you going to use to beat a mid-range RH JK??
>>> ..or mistakingly gives his opponent intellectual credit? *cough*
>>
>> Of course. This can hardly be offered as proof that one character
>> isn't trounced by another, though.
>
> So what does prove it? Whatever you might say or propose doesn't mean shit if
> it doesn't hold true in a real game. To me, for free means 100% of the time.
> What does it mean to you? Maybe we're arguing over different things.
99% of the time.
> I hope we can both agree here, that the only thing that matters are the people
> behind the controls and not what the rankings or a "for free" list might say.
> You are proof of this, your Cammy lost to a grappler.
*Shrug* I was bored. I lose fights when I'm bored, no matter how
easy they are (assuming I'm fighting someone at my skill level). I
play to enjoy myself, not to win -- winning is a side effect.
>>> What does it matter? Do you need to know who I am, who my friends are, and
>>> what I have achieved before you decide whether or not I might be full of
>>> shit?
>>
>> No, but your argument is so weak that some corroboration on your
>> credentials would very much help me take you seriously.
>>
>>> Is that how you respond to anyone who holds a different view to yours?
>>
>> Generally, yes, because I know my sh*t, and people who know *their*
>> sh*t rarely disagree with me.
>
> My disagreeing with you means I don't know shit? Whatever.
It means that you probably don't, yes.
>>> Are you better than me?
>>
>> Yes. In oh, so many ways.
>
> Oh please.
Don't ask a question if you don't want the answer!
>>> Why are you so bitter?
>>
>> Because I'm sick of little no-name a.g.sf2 turds (as well as the more
>> well-known turds) spouting their officious sewage.
>
> Relax, don't stress out over it. This has been, and will be, going on for
> years. Not everyone's going to agree with you all of the time, regardless of
> their name, agsf2 status, or any type of bullshit rank.
What stress? I've said it several times before: as the quality of
players and posts here has declined, I've more and more often come here
to shite on morons. This is stress *relief*.
>>> Anyway, if you doubt me, or anything I've said about the Adon vs Sagat
>>> matchup, go and try it yourself. Then you can come back here and abuse me
>>> some more, 'kay?
>>
>> I *have* tried it. My Adon has never lost to a Sagat; in fact, the
>> fight has never even been close. If you come to San Diego, feel free
>> to show your sh*t.
>
> My Sagat has never lost to Adon. So what? If I'm ever in the area, I'll let
> you know.
>
> I'm getting tired of this thread. Put simply: this fight ain't free.
I'm not tired of the thread, I'm just tired of you.
Milo D. Cooper
I'm going to try to make this quick by answering newly-made points
(scarce though they are) or egregious arguments, because I'm busy:
> James Margaris wrote:
>
> Dude, what the fuck is the point of throwing slow high tigers?
To keep adon from using the jaguar tooth -- as I stated umpteen times.
> What the hell? What the fuck kind of Sagat do you play? Long range
> Tigers against Chun-Li? Why? What is the point?
To limit her approach to aerial or ground attacks, whichever suits me.
> Against Honda? ? As prevention
> against a headbutt maybe?
To limit his approach to aerial attacks.
>> HAHAHAHAHA! Unless he attacks when Adon is at the top of the JK,
>> Sagat's uppercuts won't even reach Adon at mid range, even if Adon whiffs
>> the move! Free super for Adon!
>
> I don't get it. Can't Sagat just look and see? It's not like the JK's
> are all that fast.
Yes, it is.
If Sagat is far enough away to whiff the TU he shouldn't
do
> it, instead he can just let Adon whiff, or from closer walk into it on
> purpose. I don't understand the above. Do you mean that Adon can hit Sagat in
> the head with a JK and then the retaliatory TU will miss? Super then. OK, here
> is the rundown:
>
> Close JK: Sagat takes the hit, hits back with TU or Super for more
> damage.
>
> Farther JK: Sagat trades with TU, or tries to make Adon whiff. If Adon
> gets a little too close Sagat goes to strategy A and if Adon is a little far
> Sagat gets him to whiff. This is not foolproof but it works pretty well for
> Sagat, especially since he is so tall.
I don't entertain stupid sh*t like this, i.e. people who pretend that
they can time warp the game so they can respond to fast attacks with
a lengthy flowchart of options. Let's continue:
> Of course, all of this applies if Sagat was not attacking. SAGAT
> SHOULD NOT FIREBALL. That's it. It pains me to say it, but there are very few
> times or matchups when Sagat's best plan is a FB.
"Don't trwo fireballs, don't throw fireballs, dont' throw fireballs..."
you and that other fruit chant the mantra, and offer sh*t else as an
attack plan. Yawn.
> Deterring FB's with Sagat is bad plan. You want Sagat to FB, since it
> his basically his worst move. Sagat FB's are a non-issue in A3 most of the
> time.
Contradictory methodolgy. You want Sagat to fireball, so you can hit
him -- but if you continue to hit him, he'll eventually stop chucking
tigers, anyway. Then what? (Still waiting for an answer; at least the
other fruit offered the tiger knee.) Your passive argument has bugs.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
Arg, about 1/2 of that last post got snipped. Damned NG reader. Doh.
James Margaris
>In article <783gtg$8...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>,
> js...@cornell.edu (James Margaris) wrote:
>
>> interesting knowlege? Am I spelling "knowlege" right?
>
>No. (knowledge)
>
Heh. Shit, I knew it.
James M
James Margaris
>
>For those of you who think this jbb@dejanews guy is a f#cking newbie
>id-jit, read on.
>
>Translations done by Prof. P.E.T. Uleunt IV, PhD
>
Originally I responded to more of this but you are clearly a troll and there
is no point in talking to you.
> Sagat is ass in A3, no shit! Really? Or is this an in thing?
>Akuma's air rolls are more useful in a game with shittier anti-air. Funny
>that. And I'd doubt you were the first to note the fireball damage bit.
>Maybe you posted the first reply to it and said hells yah I knew that or
>some such noninfo.
A) If you think the air roll is only better due to worse anti-air you
are a fool
b) I was the first with the fireball damage thing, whether you "doubt"
it or not.
[clip]
>> I'm sure you are very proud of yourself for remembering Milo's and my
>>little encounter YEARS ago and bringing it up at this very self-serving time.
>
> Just like you're proud of remembering Seth and Milo's posts? Wow.
Can you really not tell the difference between me making reference to
previous posts (that ocurred a month ago) and Julian bringing this thing that
he wasn't involved in up totally out of the blue? You must be a troll.
James M
James Margaris
>>> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
>
I fucked up and marked your last reponse as "read" Milo so I can't quote it.
Sagat should never throw fireballs because of the meter issue. It is vaguely
useful against grapplers and against Blanka (I can TU the headbutt on reaction
and so can you I'm sure) Even from close range Sagat is better off 2-1 ing
into a knee than the fireball, which pushes him out of range for anything
useful.
He can not throw them against Adon, buit this is no argument because
he can not throw them (or should not) against nearly anyone.
My point of the JK analysis was not that any player follows a flow
chart when they play, mental or otherwise. The point is that the JK must be
placed carefully and is counterable.
Milo, I posted a lot of bitter complaints about Sagat when A3 came
out. You don't need to convince me that he loses to Adon and a lot of others.
My point was that the term "for free" was being used way too losely, from Adon
vs Sagat to Zangief vs Mika to whoever vs whoever. (don't remeber the rest,
but there were a lot)
Just like when Viscant made the rediculous claim that his Zangief
could beat anyone because "I will corner you eventually, then kill you with
one strong throw" (not the exact quote) I took exception to that because it
was simply way too loose and simplistic to be valid, and Spider-Dan proved me
right. The original poster was way too lose with his use of "for free." My
argument is with that usage, not with whether or not Adon JK trades with
strong uppercut.
James M
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
James Margaris <js...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>In article <F5vI3...@midway.uchicago.edu>, spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu (Shaun Patrick Mcisaac) wrote:
>Originally I responded to more of this but you are clearly a troll and there
>is no point in talking to you.
But since you did reply to more of this, you must enjoy pointless
things... that would explain much of the "for free" shit you've been
spewing.
<ZONK>
j...@my-dejanews.com
> Julian:
> You are such a fucking idiot. The last time I "talked" (flamed) with
Why thank you!
> you the best you could do was make classist slurs about me being a farmer.
> Fresh off that amazing bit of repartee you drag up some old shit just to throw
> mud at me since you couldn't actually make any sort of logical reply during
> our last encounter. Now you have to stoop to using someone else to do your
> insulting for you since you are not clever enough to do it yourself.
Poor James. Your replies are just as boring as they were 2 years ago. Sigh...
I'll try to wade through this one anyways.
> Milo and I both acted like total idiots for a while and went off on a
> horrible tirade that had nothing to do with SF whatsoever. It was retared and
> I regret it, (I suspect he does too) and I apologized for it because it was
> innapropriate and really just plain stupid.
Good. Next time, please behave in a "nappropriate" and non "retared" behavior.
Is that good for the cows, though?
> However, that was almost 4 years ago now. Is this the best you can do?
> As for Ming, he is a bloated self-important moron. The last thing he posted on
> this NG (that I can remember) was that E Honda low slaps beat all of Chun-Li's
> attacks, then quietly faded away when someone told him that was only true in
> the original WW.
I hate bloated self-important morons. I much prefer flaming shriveled
self-important morons.
> As for my SF knowlege: What the fuck do you want from me? What SF
> knowlege has anyone added to the group in the past 4 or 5 years? I don't mean
> a specific combo or something. Most of the engine issues for old games have
> been resolved, and the new issues (such as this bullshit VC "neutral state"
> stuff) are totally uninteresting. When SF was new there were some cool things
> to actually discover. That is no longer the case.
Yes James. That's correct. Only a pea-brained idiot with his head stuck up a
cow's ass would claim that no one has added any knowledge to the group in the
past four or five years. Of course, people have added their strategies for
every character in the game, analyzed specific combats and specific
situations, and have dissected the engine of every version to come out to
date, but I suppose that's not "interesting" for James Margaris. Perhaps if
James Margaris could _understand_ any of this knowledge instead of flapping
his mouth like a chimp simply _repeating_ what name players have said, maybe
he would find such knowledge "interesting"
Although, from your point of view, I can see how nothing interesting has been
discovered. You contributed to the group 3 years ago that you are a
pea-brained cowfucker. And today, despite now behaving "nappropriately", you
are still a pea-brained cowfucker. Nothing has changed.
> Occasionally I have posted things that I thought were relevant and
> new. Example: I was the first person here to point out that Zangief stand
> fierce is a near foolproof strategy against Birdie in A2. Does that count?
No that does not count you imbecile. You sound like stiltman with his claim
that "I use kicks to beat Zangief!". Do you honestly think we don't try out
the normal moves??
> Nowadays the "knowlege" demostrated is a new combo someone found out,
> some insane Guy juggle or VC or whatever. Is that "knowlege?" Is that
> interesting knowlege? Am I spelling "knowlege" right?
Buffoon. Who needs puny "knowlege" like "some guy juggle or whatever" when we
have James' bookselling "I push standing fierce a lot of times!".
> I was the first on the NG to worr yopenly that A3 would have infinite or
> near infinite corner juggles, something that has happened with VC's.
> Addmitedly I didn't know it would be VC's, but if you look at the posts made
> when A3 was testing I kept saying "what prevents someone from juggling forever
> in the corner. What are the rules of juggling exactly?" a question that is
> very relevant today and a question that people are still trying to precisely
> answer. Is that SF knowlege? Is watching an Earth Sodom combo and reporting
I was the first on my block to worry openly about running out of toiletpaper,
something that has happened at the local McDonalds. Admittedly, I didn't know
it would be caused by shitting six cheeseburgers in a row, but if you look at
the posts made when A3 was testing, I kept saying "What happens if someone
keeps on shitting forever in the corner? What are the rules of toilet paper
use exactly?", a question that is very relevant today and that Steven Hawking
and Jack Palance are trying to precisely answer in their new book. Is that SF
knowledge?
> Is watching an Earth Sodom combo and reporting what you saw a demostration of
knowlege?
"I know you are but what am I?"
> On IRC I was the first (I think) to point out that Akuma's air rolls,
> and particularly his air roll punch was much more useful than before. I was
> the first (maybe?) to claim that A3 Sagat was crap. I was the first to post
> that fireball damage is inversly related to distance.
On IRC, I was the first (I think) to point out you are full of crap. I was the
first to post that your "knowlege" is "inversly" related to how far you've
shoved your head up your ass.
> Why do you bring this up now? The answer is that the last time we
> clashed you made an idiot out of yourself, proving yourself totally
> incapable of adressing any points or even of understanding the conversation,
> instead relying on pointing out spelling mistakes and claiming that I fuck
> pigs. Bravo. How old are you?
I thought is was cows. Pigs too?
> Like I said before, Seth Killian, Milo, and others have a caustic
> attitude but they can at least understand what the fuck other people are
> talking about and besides smack talking they have real arguments as well. This
> is of course in total contrast to you.
I've noticed that recently you add "fuck" to every post. Is the idea to hide
the emptiness of your posts with spicy words like "fuck"? I would add "bamboo
shaft up the urethra" instead. So instead of
"What kind of fucking Sagats do you play?"
you could try
"What kind of bamboo shaft up the urethrea Sagats do you play?"
See? Much better.
> I'm sure you are very proud of yourself for remembering Milo's and my
> little encounter YEARS ago and bringing it up at this very self-serving time.
Self serving? How is it self serving to remind the group what a buffoon you
are? I suppose it serves me in that maybe you will finally shut up and save
us all bandwidth. No James, let me recap what just happened here.
Milo responds to one of your habitual one line posts by writing
"I know you are but what am I?"
Since most of the group probably thinks this is simply an infantile retort
and not a reference to a previous post, I repost your earlier ass reaming for
all to see.
I can assure you that I had no self serving interests in mind. No, I wanted
the entire group to benefit from your ridicule.
> Last, I will say that this pathetic attempt of yours will in the end
> incriminate you much more than me. You end up painting yourself as a vengeful
> loser trying to dig up old shit 'cause your own brain just can't handle me,
> while simultaneously showing that some people (namely myself) are able to
> learn and grow from past blunders, while others (namely you) are forever stuck
> with their grade school mentality.
You've really shown us how you've grown. In 3 years, you have shown us that
you can now add "fuck" to every post, misspell every other word, and STILL
not know anything about SF.
> Let flow the personal attacks a plenty. Please, what did I mis-spell
> this time?
Ah the irony of that last sentence.
> James M
Cowfucker.
-Julien
Da Mizer
Viscant
>could beat anyone because "I will corner you eventually, then kill you with
>one strong throw"
All right. Why do you have to bring me up here. Since I'm provoked, and I
still have a head cold, I'll go a round or two in the mud.
The claim isn't ridiculous. In fact, for the most part it's proven. Name one
player besides Spiderdan that has anywhere's near a winning record against my
Zangief. You aren't going to find it, because Dan is the only one. I don't
doubt that many people however took notes on how to get Zangief, so I guess
things'll get more interesting. I'm sure most of the old-schoolers here don't
want to hear any more about MvC, so I'll keep it brief.
The second you get within range of my MP throw, you are for the most part up
the creek. The MP throw leads to a guaranteed combo unless you're playing Ryu
or MM. (That's irrelevant though, you can hold both of them in place using the
MvSF "option," but that's another argument I'd be happy to prove later.)
Basically, that's just the way it is. The combo itself (as tested on the
machine today at UCSD, which I think is a bit higher than normal, but that
won't matter too much for now.) will take off 25-30% damage (MP throw already
added) From this point, I have one of three options, FAB, to tack on 45%
(guaranteed); pop-up , where you take 20% more, or MP throw, where you take
25%-30% more. Basically I only have to "choose" once. After that, if I guess
right, the next time will be a (guaranteed) FAB if I do the knee low enough and
you will be dead. A simple MP throw turns into one single decision where you
can either save your life or lose it. These are the facts of the Triple Option
(yeah, I know about the "hitch" in it with Venom. A single walk-behind or MvSF
"option" insert solves that though and resets it.).
The disputed part of it is whether I have to react to you, or whether you get
to react to me. The fact here is, you have about 1/2 a second to decide. If
you think that you can make a move in that period of time and make me "guess"
wrong, please do. Because I can react to both your hands moving or to how the
character changes his fall animation (notice that I seldom screw up against
Wolverine, whose pose changes dramatically depending on whether he's chosen to
do nothing or get out.) fairly easily, and if I'm wrong, I'll just make up my
mind beforehand and accept 50% efficiency. And remember, we're dealing with
experts here. Even if I, personally, can't, a Zangief expert will be able to
operate the option at well above 50% efficiency. The vast majority of the
times you go up, you don't come back down.
James Margaris, if you'd like to debate the facts of the option, we can do that
here, and I'd win because I've proven this in other places If you'd like to
debate the efficiency of the option, you will have to wait until we get to
play, or you can let the results, for the most part, speak for themselves.
Seeing as how we live on different coasts, playing each other may take some
time, but my future tournament attendance is fairly well known, so you'd know
where to go if you wanted to get destroyed.
Basically, Dan beat me because with his characters I couldn't get off my MP
throw but here's the real kicker, when I did, I couldn't do the option. These
times were either my fault or controller error. All Zangief players will say
that the facts behind the option are valid.
If I do corner you and pull off that strong throw you understand that you will
lose, 1 out of 2 times at least. In theory you should be able to operate the
option at 50% by guesswork if you already have your mind made up; just by
doing simple math you can see that. If you're good you should have even better
efficiency than that. So Zangief wins when he MP throws you.
That is all. Wow, actually kept my head in this one.
--Viscant, The Icy Rose
"The manager has personally passed all the water served here."
--Hotel sign in Acapulco, Mexico.
seth james killian
> However, that was almost 4 years ago now. Is this the best you can do?
>As for Ming, he is a bloated self-important moron.
Bloated? Ming probably weighed in at around 90lbs. 75 minus
ego, and the inimitable Hong-Kong Fro. Self-important? It's gonna be
kinda hard to make that one stick to a guy who identified himself in
his .sig as "Eu-Ming Lee, aka Cybergeek".
> Occasionally I have posted things that I thought were relevant and
>new. Example: I was the first person here to point out that Zangief stand
>fierce is a near foolproof strategy against Birdie in A2. Does that count?
Er, no.
> I was the first on the NG to worr yopenly that A3 would have infinite or
>near infinite corner juggles, something that has happened with VC's.
Chris "Funny" Finney was officially the first to worry about
every possible way in which SF could (and did) go wrong.
>Addmitedly I didn't know it would be VC's,
And, admittedly, I did, after my first session playing the game.
Check for yourself. Do I get a lolli?
but if you look at the posts made
>when A3 was testing I kept saying "what prevents someone from juggling forever
>in the corner. What are the rules of juggling exactly?" a question that is
>very relevant today and a question that people are still trying to precisely
>answer.
James, that is two questions, not one. Also, there's a difference
between asking a question and giving an answer. My asking "I wonder what
the best Akuma VC is?" doesn't mean I get credit for actually coming up
with it. See the difference?
Is that SF knowlege? Is watching an Earth Sodom combo and reporting
>what you saw a demostration of knowlege?
No, it's a report. I think that's why he probably entitled it
"Japan Tournament Report", or something like that. Although Julien is
none too short in the knowledge department, reporting alone is a valuable
and fun thing to have around, esp when it's a report on the top players
in the world.
> Why do you bring this up now? The answer is that the last time we
>clashed you made an idiot out of yourself, proving yourself totally
>incapable of adressing any points or even of understanding the conversation,
>instead relying on pointing out spelling mistakes and claiming that I fuck
>pigs. Bravo. How old are you?
I think Julien suspects you fuck cows, not pigs. Here's a visual
aid:
\____/
| x x|
\ /\_____
/ \/ |666 |\
MOO! |____| \_
| |
> Like I said before, Seth Killian, Milo, and others have a caustic
>attitude but they can at least understand what the fuck other people are
>talking about and besides smack talking they have real arguments as well.
Real arguments, huh? I resent that. See above.
Seth Killian
ck...@hotmail.com
> In article <783gtg$8...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>,
> js...@cornell.edu (James Margaris) wrote:
>
> > Julian:
> > You are such a fucking idiot. The last time I "talked" (flamed) with
>
> Why thank you!
<ZONK>
(walks out of bomb shelter gingerly) What's the URL for the Dejanews articles
again? I'm particularly interested in knowing how the phrase "I know you are
but what am I?" came about. Back to your schedued flaming. (scurries back to
shelter)
---
Tat
Cody Convicted (yes, a Cody shrine!) at http://members.tripod.com/a3cody
"A member of the METETKA (Mars' Expedition To Earth To Kick Ass) program"
James Margaris
>In article <780i0v$e...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>,
> js...@cornell.edu (James Margaris) wrote:
>
The idiot strikes again. Here we go.
>> You guys are using "for free" much more liberally then you should. Ken vs
>
>Thank you professor. We stand humbled and corrected. In the future, we will be
>sure to use "for free" in conservative James Margaris fashion.
>
>> Honda? This is tough but hardly a "free" win for Ken. A good Honda who can
>> jump straight up over fireballs can put up a good fight and win. THe main
>> advantage K/R have against Honda is that he has major problems with the
>> fireball trap, but the trap IS escapable by a good Honda player, so it is
>> hardly "for free." Dhalsim vs Zangief is tough for Zan but since WW it has
>
>Ah, the sweet irony. I would love to point out your idiocy, only someone else
>has done it much better that I could ever have. For you, in your typical
>ape-like mimicry of popular opinions of the group and hiding behind big
>names, have just had the rug pulled out from under you. Now why does James
>Margaris think that "A good honda who can jump straight up over fireballs can
>put up a good fight and win"? Hmmmm?? Why? Because you are hiding behind
>statements Bob Painter made years ago about Honda vs Ryu. And since Painter
>proved himself by winning the Vegas ST tourney with his honda, you feel quite
>safe hiding behind your "I AM QUOTING BOB PAINTER" Shield. Oh who would dare
>to contradict James Margaris, who is speaking the words of the great one
>himself. Unfortunately for you, the fate of all parrot scrubs has befallen
>you. You have just been pissed on by your own god. Bob Painter has just
>nicely demonstrated that you don't know what the fuck you are saying.
When did I ever claim that my argument had anything to do with Bob
Painter? Not only have I not quoted him but I didn't even mention him at all,
even in passing. Bob painter said that Honda lost 8-2. (maybe he said
9-1?) This doesn't sound like for free to me. It sounds like Bob Painter
agreed with me.
Read this statement and repeat until you finally understand: To say that
someone does not win "for free" is not to say that they don't lose badly.
Lots of negatives, I know, but do your best. How did Bob Painter pull the rug
out from under me? Did he disagree with anything I said? The only thing I said
about Honda vs K/R is that Honda can put up a fight. Bob Painter maybe
disagreed with what he thought my claim was, that Honda beats Ken and Ryu, but
I never claimed that. I just said he doesn't win "for free."
But, now that you bring it up, Bob winning a ST tourney with Honda
(and fighting some Ryu's) does seem to contradict that it is "for free,"
doesn't it. So, what the fuck is it? Sort of free? A little free?
Inexpensive? The point of "for free" is that it is......drum roll please....
FREE
Yes that's right, it is a win for FREE.
I'm not cleverly re-defining terms here, nor does it take a Professor to
realize the meaning of a simple statement.
>Your silly quoting of fights you don't know anything about has just turned
>around and bitten you nicely in the ass.
Did I actually say anything about the Honda vs K/R fight? The only
"quote" of the fight I made was to point out that a far fierce DP from Ken
does very little damage. That was it. Do you take issue with that?
>Oh, and please don't even try to respond with something like "I thought Honda
>could beat Ken before Bob said anything". No. No one on this group took honda
>seriously before Bob won the vegas tourney except the sunnyvale players.
Yes Julian, you have the magical ability to look directly into the
minds of everyone on this group and see what they are thinking. I'm sure in
your grand SF touring you stopped by to see what the Ithaca players thought of
this matchup. Idiot. I did not think Honda could win, overall, although I did
think from time to time Honda could win. I wasn't even on this group until
right around Vegas time. My personal experience was that it was a tough match
for Honda.
Now, oh great swami, why would I claim that "I thought Honda
could beat Ken before Bob said anything"? I DON'T THINK Honda can beat Ken,
not consistently. I think Honda LOSES this fight. Just not "for free." Honda
CAN WIN sometimes. Like I said before maybe 8-2. By making this argument you
illustrate that you don't understand what is going on at all.
You obviously have some sort of reading comprehension problem. You can
read posts closely enough to mock minor spelling mistakes while at the same
time missing the fundamental points. You alone on this newsgroup possess this
particular talent.
Even
>reports of Geno, the resident sunnyvale honda player, were mostly ignored by
>the group and dismissed. Bob brought credibility to honda in ST, so don't
>even try to lie and claim you thought otherwise.
Yes, it would be an outright lie for me to claim that I thought
something that you think I didn't think. There is NO FUCKING POSSIBLE WAY that
anyone outside of sunnyvale, even in FUCKING ITHACA NEW YORK, nope, not one
place in the entire world, not connected to the internet at all, no way
anyone anywhere could believe that Honda beats Ken. (Not saying I believe
this)
For a clairvoyant you are truly an idiot.
>
>> gotten easier, thanks to more vulnerability of Dhalsim limbs. A character
> with
>> a special throw against Hugo? WTF? Alex beats Hugo for free? I don't see what
>> a special throw has to do with anything.
>>
>> For free is Akuma vs Zan in ST. Simple, predictable strategy, nothing Zan can
>> do really. For free is not "x beats y 7.5 - 2.5"
>
>You pathetic little ape. Again, hiding behind the only shield you know. That
>of popular group opinion. At least Allen Klein had the sense to hide behind
>statements that were generally correct (even though he didn't know why).
If you want I can justify why Akuma vs Zan is for free. Just tell me
and I will. But then you'll claim that I read it somewhere, won't you?
>one post, two of your statements are being dismantled for the farce they are
>(Honda vs Ken is not a free win) - dismantled by Painter, he whom you just
>quoted.
I went over this before. I don't think it is a free win, neither do
you, and neither does Bob, if we agree that "for free" really means "for
free." If for you "for free" means some sort of wishy washy "it's pretty hard
to win," well then, you're right.
>(Huga vs Alex is not a free win) - dismantled by many people who actually KNOW
>WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT
Once again, you are the fool. The original post (oh no, I'm resorting
to fact!) said thart Hugo vs "anyone with a special or super throw." This
would include:
Alex WITHOUT the Hyperbomb (he still has the powerbomb)
Yun/Yang (flipover throw)
Oro? (with his Chaos Dimension super)
I think that's it, maybe there are more. Never did I claim that Hugo
beats Alex at all. Does Hugo beat non-hyoperbomb Alex for free? (oops, reverse
that) Does Oro beat Hugo for free? The reason I did not reply to the Alex
vs Hugo posts is that the person misundertstood what I was talking about and
went off on a tangent and I didn't feel like correcting them. Find where I
said that Hugo beats Alex. Well.........
...
..
still waiting...
..
..
>
>Crawl back into your little cave. You've ridiculed yourself so completely
>over the past 3 years on this group that it's not even funny anymore.
>Parrotlike mimicry was unfunny and stupid with Klein, and it's worse with
>you. Shut up and go home.
Funny. On one hand I'm a mimic, merely repeating what others say, but on the
other hand I seem to disagree with a lot of people a lot of the time. Odd,
isn't it? To the normal person maybe, but not to you I'm sure, given your
substandard reasoning skills.
I want to hear your definition of "for free," and furthermore I want
to see you reply to this in any sort of coherent, factual way. I responded to
everything you said in your post and shot it all down. In your post your two
main tactics were:
1) Mind reading
2) Making up an argument for me (one that I never made) and attacking it
This is the pattern you have consitently shown in your dealings with me. You
can't even separate what I actually say from the funny little voices in your
head.
Maybe next time before you hit "follow up" you should read more than just the
subject line.
James M
James Margaris
Hah hah hah. Alright, just by reading the subject line I have to give credit
where credit is due. That really is very funny IMO. Heh heh.
[huge clip]
>James Margaris, if you'd like to debate the facts of the option, we can do that
>here, and I'd win because I've proven this in other places If you'd like to
>debate the efficiency of the option, you will have to wait until we get to
>play, or you can let the results, for the most part, speak for themselves.
>Seeing as how we live on different coasts, playing each other may take some
>time, but my future tournament attendance is fairly well known, so you'd know
>where to go if you wanted to get destroyed.
I'm sure you would kick my ass. In fact, to be perfectly honest I
thought you were going to beat Spider-Dan, just because you had the tourney
credentials. You are no doubt very good at MvC, way better than me and most
other people. This is not a question of your personal skill. Furthermore, I
know what the option is and it is powerful. I can't deny that. (And never did
I)
>
>Basically, Dan beat me because with his characters I couldn't get off my MP
>throw but here's the real kicker, when I did, I couldn't do the option. These
>times were either my fault or controller error. All Zangief players will say
>that the facts behind the option are valid.
>
>If I do corner you and pull off that strong throw you understand that you will
>lose, 1 out of 2 times at least. In theory you should be able to operate the
>option at 50% by guesswork if you already have your mind made up; just by
>doing simple math you can see that.
Heh eheh. *REALLY* simple math. Give me a little credit there guy,
unlike certain people who will remain nameless I am not THAT dense. Yes, I
would say that 1/2 is around 50% or so.
>That is all. Wow, actually kept my head in this one.
I have to give you credit for not calling me a "fucking ass fucker" or
whatever. My original problem with your statement was that it was overly
simplistic, you assumed that you would eventually land the MP throw as if it
was 100% assured. Against some characters and opponents this is not the case
at all. That's it. That is the whole thing. It was never a personal attack on
you or your skill, just on your sloppily worded strategy. In my mind your
strategy was akin to saying "as xvsSF Cyclops I will corner you, throw, and
then infinite you." Not a bad strategy, but not as foolproof as you would like
us to believe.
That is all. See, I can be reasonable too. Things always get so
personal on this group. (Not that I really mind :) But I won't make them
personal issues if you won't. I'd like to think I can have a discussion
without exlpetives and the eventual "shut up or I'll kick your fucking ass in
the real street" sort of talk.
This was a breath of fresh air. Thanks.
James M
ps: Julian, if you are reading this, try to learn, the simple steps of
argumentation:
1) Read what they actually said
2) Understand what they actually said
3) Respond to what they actually said
Yes kids, it really is that easy!
James Margaris
[clip]
>> you the best you could do was make classist slurs about me being a farmer.
>> Fresh off that amazing bit of repartee you drag up some old shit just to
> throw
>> mud at me since you couldn't actually make any sort of logical reply during
>> our last encounter. Now you have to stoop to using someone else to do your
>> insulting for you since you are not clever enough to do it yourself.
>
>Poor James. Your replies are just as boring as they were 2 years ago. Sigh...
>I'll try to wade through this one anyways.
AHA!!! Shit, I see. The reason you can't respond to anything is that you don't
have the patience to read it. It's just too boring for you. This explains a
lot. Yes. It all makes sense now.
>
>> Milo and I both acted like total idiots for a while and went off on a
>> horrible tirade that had nothing to do with SF whatsoever. It was retared and
>> I regret it, (I suspect he does too) and I apologized for it because it was
>> innapropriate and really just plain stupid.
>
>Good. Next time, please behave in a "nappropriate" and non "retared" behavior.
>Is that good for the cows, though?
God, what a troll.
[clip the rest]
I only skimmed it. More of the same typical Julian crap. Cowfucking
and whatnot it looks like. Whether you do it purposely or are just an idiot is
not a very interesting question. I don't have time to deal with you. You are
just plain too stupid to bother with at this point.
If you want to troll, go right ahead. You're not winning any points or
convincing anyone of my SF stupidity by ignoring what I say and pointing out
more spelling mistakes.
If you had something important to say...well, that's not very likely
is it? I have better things to do.
James M
James Margaris
[clip everything]
I said:
>You've really shown us how you've grown. In 3 years, you have shown us that
>you can now add "fuck" to every post, misspell every other word, and STILL
>not know anything about SF.
>
>> Let flow the personal attacks a plenty. Please, what did I mis-spell
>> this time?
>
He (Julian) said:
>Ah the irony of that last sentence.
I say:
Dear god, I can only pray that your are kidding. Please be kidding.
You are kidding right? Right?
James
ps: Right? Just kidding no?
Penny
NG with useless posts is one thing, but flaming in an attempt to make the
alt.games.sf2 posting archives is another. Stupid shit.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
James Margaris <js...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>In article <783f7d$5tl$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, j...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>In article <780i0v$e...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>,
>> js...@cornell.edu (James Margaris) wrote:
>
> When did I ever claim that my argument had anything to do with Bob
>Painter? Not only have I not quoted him but I didn't even mention him at all,
>even in passing. Bob painter said that Honda lost 8-2. (maybe he said
>9-1?) This doesn't sound like for free to me. It sounds like Bob Painter
>agreed with me.
Read his article this time, then you might figure out that he's
not. Let me geuss, you were too busy fucking a barnyard animal at the
time to realize that Bob did not agree with your assessment of for free
and this fight.
> Once again, you are the fool. The original post (oh no, I'm resorting
>to fact!) said thart Hugo vs "anyone with a special or super throw." This
>would include:
> Alex WITHOUT the Hyperbomb (he still has the powerbomb)
> Yun/Yang (flipover throw)
> Oro? (with his Chaos Dimension super)
> I think that's it, maybe there are more. Never did I claim that Hugo
Necro with Slam Dance. I know it's so hard to remember when
raping goats and trying to type up a post.
myk...@my-dejanews.com
> >> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
> >
> > The point? Let me try to put it more simply for you:
> >
> > If your Sagat bases his game around the tiger shot pressure game, then I can
> > see why you'd say Adon wins for free. Not only is this the wrong way to play
> > Sagat in general, but even moreso against Adon who's attacks are perfect for
> > anti-projectile attack and couple this with Sagat's horrible shot recovery
> > you're just asking to die - for free.
>
> As I've atempted to explain to you more than once, the problem with
> this argument is that Alpha Sagat has nothing to employ in lieu of his
> absent fireball pressure game. In other words, if you can't rely on
> tigers to hamper your opponents offense (and, again, it is definitely
> possible to do this against several characters, though none of these
> are Adon), what the hell else are you going to do? The most I've
> heard you offer is to pray for a super connect, then turtle.
Pray for a super, then turtle? When have I ever said that? And you say I'm
putting words into your mouth!
> > Agreed! And my point has been that you don't play the tiger shot game
> > against Adon.
>
> And my response to this has been that you haven't offered dick as an
> alternative Sagat strategy, because you know that he has none. All
> you've retorted with is that "Sagat can't play far away, he has to play
> close," while offering *no* viable method for his coming into that
> range and *no* reliable attack plan once he's there. I and several
> other people have already told you exactly why Sagat can't get in on
> Adon, and why Adon wouldn't even care if Sagat did manage to get in his
> face.
Anything Adon can do in Sagat's face, Sagat can do back. Poke with low jabs,
shorts, and strongs? Sagat can do this. He can tack on a low tiger after any
of these should he wish to push the opponent back (towards the corner).
Better still, he can tack on a tiger knee which keeps him close to Adon, and
allows him to keep the pressure on. If Adon is blocking all the while, his
guard meter will be depleted as well as some block damage from the knee or
low tiger. When I grow tired of your turtling I might decide to hit you with
a low fierce or roundhouse, to really hurt your guard meter, or I may choose
to throw instead. That's just one variant of an attack plan. I'm not claiming
it to be flawless but if you honestly believe this is nothing for Adon to
care about then there's no point in me continuing this discussion. Seems like
you have an answer for everything, and Adon has an automatic action to beat
anything Sagat might do.
> >> I was talking about long range, not close range. This should have
> >> been obvious from the layout of my response: I spoke first of Sagat's
> >> long-range options, then I moved in to his closer ranges.
> >
> > You originally said, and I quote:
> >
> > "Low fierce if Sagat jumps in or throws a high tiger.."
> >
> > It was not obvious here which range you were talking about. You were
> > discussing Adon's low fierce against a jump in or a high tiger.
>
> If you really do play Adon and you know WtF you're talking about, the
> range that I meant *is* very obvious. If Sagat jumps in from anything
> but long range (i.e. not just close range), he can be hit with the low
> fierce.
In your last paragraph you say the low fierce is not a long range option, yet
you claim that in your original statement (from the layout of the response,
blah blah blah) that it *is* a long range option. Why don't you make up
_your_ mind? When you don't follow my point because I haven't stated the
obvious, then it's my fault for not covering my bases. But when you cause
ambiguity because you haven't stated the obvious, then it's still my fault
because I don't know my sh*t, don't know WtF I'm talking about, etc, etc. I
_know_ that the low fierce is not a long range option...
> > The low
> > fierce will not hit at long range (I don't consider it's hitting range as
> > long range) and even then, Sagat is stupid to throw a high tiger at anyone
> > who can hit him from a crouch, no matter what the range.
>
> Huh? Then what the hell did you mean when you wrote this:
>
> 'yet even in mid range (outside of Adon's reach), a high tiger
> is quite safe for Sagat. There is certainly nothing "for free"
> here for Adon.'
>
> I didn't even have to go back to an old post to get that; it's part
> of your excerpts in this one. What's it gonna be, dude? Is the high
> tiger "stupid... no matter what the range," or "quite safe"?
If you're quoting me, then do it properly, and keep it in context. The two
statements:
1. ..is stupid to throw a high tiger at anyone who can hit him from a crouch,
no matter what the range. 2. ..(outside of Adon's reach), a high tiger is
quite safe for Sagat.
are correct. What's it gonna be? It's both. There's nothing complicated here,
it's quite straightfoward. How could you have a problem understanding this?
Don't pick it apart and change it's meaning.
> >>> Sagat has no long range game, period. Sagat's game in is the mid to close
> >>> range. That's the only effective way I've found to play Sagat. He cannot
> >>> rely on mixing up tigers as a viable strategy. It doesn't work.
> >>
> >> The hell it doesn't. The tigers from far away aren't as massive as
> >> they were before Alpha One, but he can still use them to cut off his
> >> opponents' attack avenues. Throwing slow high tigers at Adon from long
> >> range is just one example of this. What the f*ck kind of Sagat do you
> >> play that you try to get in on someone without forcing the situation
> >> into your favor by throwing tigers from far away?
> >
> > What are you getting all worked up about? I've already agreed as to the high
> > tigers _usefulness_, especially against Adon (just read my replies above).
>
> Let's quote you from above:
>
> 'Sagat is stupid to throw a high tiger at anyone who can hit
> him from a crouch, no matter what the range.'
>
> You can't make up your damned mind. *That's* what I'm worked up
> about (par for the course, with this weak-ass newsgroup).
Oh, so now you decide to quote me correctly. My mind is already made up.
Again, what part didn't you get?
>
> > I'm
> > arguing that throwing tiger shots in general is a weak _strategy_ overall,
> > and it's no surprise that you would conclude Sagat loses for free. What
> > situation are you hoping to force against Adon? A jump in? More than likely
> > you'll force him to JKsuper.
>
> The jab high tiger is effective at keeping Adon from toothing off the
> wall. This, at least, alleviates a major portion of Adon's fake-out
> game, as well as his highest priority attack. It's not enough to allow
> Sagat to win the fight, but it helps.
Agreed.
> >> What are you going
> >> to do against a Honda, or a Dhalsim, or a Chun Li, or any other
> >> character with dashing attacks or normals that beat yours "for free"?
> >> Without his fireballs, Sagat would never get in close at all.
> >
> > We're talking about Adon here.
>
> Not in this part of the debate, we aren't. You said that Sagat's
> tiger shot pressuring was worthless across the board. I'm saying
> that you're full of it, and that against some characters (though *not*
> Adon), his tiger shots, though not as powerful as they were before
> the Alpha series, are actually very effective -- in particular, versus
> grapplers and characters with lateral dashing attacks.
I won't deny their effectiveness against certain characters (some more than
others), but I still believe that a mixed up tiger game is not enough to win
a fight in general. This is a general statement, yes, across the board. Last
time I checked, the majority of players are not grapplers and don't have
lateral dashing attacks, so this generalisation holds true. Even so, when I
know the tiger shot can be used (abused) against certain characters, I tend
not to use it, and prefer to work my way in close, where I can dish out some
real damage. For me, this has been much more effective than the fireball
game. Pecking away with tiger shots bores me to hell.
> >> HAHAHAHAHA! Unless he attacks when Adon is at the top of the JK,
> >> Sagat's uppercuts won't even reach Adon at mid range, even if Adon whiffs
> >> the move! Free super for Adon!
> >
> > Did you even read what I wrote? All the flaws of the jag kick/tooth, which I
> > described in detail, will really hurt Adon if he isn't careful as to how he
> > uses them. And don't tell me that all of Adon's attacks are perfectly
> > placed.
> > At the end of the day, it's a guessing game after Adon's jag kick or tooth.
> > If they hit too closely, Adon is punished "for free" -- there is nothing he
> > can do about it. If they are blocked, it's anyone's game - Sagat's tiger
> > uppercut will beat any of Adon's fantastic normals, but Adon can Super and
> > beat Sagat's uppercut, and then again Adon can do nothing but block, maybe
> > get a whiffed uppercut, etc, etc. You see what I'm saying? This fight ain't
> > free.
>
> You're not going to weasal your way out of this thread by being
> ambiguous and putting words into my mouth. Why point out that deep
> jaguar kicks are potentially answerable when I never once made them
> part of my reasoning that this fight is free for Adon?
So you play a perfect Adon, and all your JKs are placed perfectly, never too
deep. Right, I think I gotcha.
> The jaguar
> kick is generally a mid-range move, and if your Sagat blocks it, I
> *dare* you to do something as stupid as performing an uppercut
> immediately (or even not immediately) afterward.
Your *dare* amuses me. For the umpteenth time, after a blocked JK it's
_anyone's_ game! How many times must I tell you this before it gets through
that thick skull of yours? You *dare* me to uppercut? What if I don't
uppercut? While you're comfortably sitting there in a crouch block, *daring*
me to uppercut I decide tiger knee towards you instead? What if low strong
into low tiger? What if I don't do jack? It's a mind game here. It's not free
for Adon, so don't use this as part of your reasoning as to why Adon wins for
free.
> The worst that
> happens to me is that I do nothing but block damage. I can do a
> short jaguar kick in your face and get on the other side of you, and
> you *still* won't be able to do jack.
No, if you hop over me with a short JK (which obviously whiffed) then there's
_nothing_you_can_do_ but eat a low strong into low tiger or super. That's a
fact, jack. You can't block it. It's "for free". I've said it before, and I've
said it again, the recovery on the JKs suck. Don't play the JK game with me,
because you won't win for free.
> >> At close range, I just play footsie,
> >> since mine is faster and has better priority, and I can even jaguar tooth
> >> with forward, which trades with uppercuts and hits everything else that
> >> Sagat has cleanly.
> >
> > Did you read what I wrote? The tooth will be hit cleanly by a deep uppercut
> > (I've done it a zillion times). If you throw in a tooth during your footsie
> > game, I'll see it coming and either uppercut it, jump up, or block it. This
> > fight ain't free.
>
> Unless you have me cornered, you can't hit the forward tooth with
> a deep uppercut. It won't come close enough. What's more, what if
> do a *short* tooth instead of a forward tooth (and I've been known
> to do this)? You uppercut, and I smack you for free. What is it
> with you and the uppercuts? Are you a mind-reader or something?
I'm no mind reader, but nor am I the type to uppercut the instant I see Adon
go into his JT. Even if I did, your roundhouse JT would hit my (too early)
uppercut cleanly. Sorry, I don't uppercut like that. Anyway, my preference
has always been to jump straight up and my followup depends on where Adon
lands. If he stupidly lands right under me, he eats big damage "for free". If
he faked, nobody loses. Back to square one.
> >> As for doing RH JK's at close range, that's your
> >> impetuosity getting the better of you; I never once claimed that that
> >> was a safe option for Adon (though standing short into RH JK is, in fact,
> >> generally uncounterable).
> >
> > My impetuousity? Unless you can perfectly place your JKs then the instant
> > you
> > hit it too close, I'll uppercut you without even thinking about it. The
> > whole JK/JT game does not make this fight free for Adon.
>
> I'm not going to "hit it too close." Just remember that; it'll save
> me from having to wade through your bullsh*t in the future.
Yes, I've made note that you perfectly place all your JKs all of the time.
With your perfect placement, it just means Sagat doesn't get anything for
free, but note that Adon sure as hell doesn't get anything for free either.
Don't play your JK game with me.
> >> [re: after a blocked jag kick/tooth]
> >> Who cares? I still have better close-range normals. I can throw out
> >> a couple of shorts, jabs, then a forward, and suddenly I don't give a
> >> sh*t that Sagat blocked my move. At worst, he takes block damage and I
> >> get away Scot-free (in fact, Adon can do this against many characters --
> >> it's virtually a totally safe tactic).
> >
> > You'll throw out your shorts, jabs and forwards after a blocked JK/JT? Did
> > you not read what I wrote? An uppercut or super will beat these attacks. My
> > point is that this little scenario, and the whole damn fight, is not free
> > for Adon.
>
> Hey man, if you want to waste super meter and/or risk losing up to
> 40% of your life bar doing uppercuts and supers after a blocked
> special, go right ahead and die! I'd have a field day with your ass.
Enough already! Don't assume I'll respond to your blocked specials the same
way every time. So what if I take a little guard damage. The next move is
anyone's for the taking.
> > haha, yes, this all gets back to your original argument and my original
> > reply. Your Sagat throws fireballs (and eats JK/JTs).. mine doesn't.
>
> So you turtle? Great, I'll turtle too. You still can't jump in,
> you still can't beat my faster and higher-priority normals at close
> range, you still can't pressure me.
Since when did not throwing fireballs = turtle? Huh? I despise turtling, I
never do it in any fighting game I play and I definitely do _not_ turtle with
Sagat. He's not even turtle friendly.
> >> Huh? The blocked knee will repel Sagat, and Adon will land before
> >> Sagat can do anything. The short jaguar knee has one the best special
> >> move recoveries in the game. I've caught people who've been playing
> >> SF for over five years with short jaguar knee, short jaguar knee. You
> >> have *got* to be sh*tting me.
> >
> > My mistake here. The short knee is safe when blocked in the air, but what
> > about on the ground?
>
> Yeah, like I'm going to jaguar knee you if you're sitting there in
> defensive crouch.
Of course you're not, but what if you went for a deep knee, but was too late
and I'm on the ground by the time I block it. Oh hang on, you must be perfect
with your knees too.
> > Absolutely nothing, which is WHHHYYY I've been saying DON'T THROW
> > PROJECTILES
> > against Adon since the beginning of this whole damn argument. Don't throw
> > projectiles and Adon has no anti-projectile game. Leave the careless tiger
> > shots out of this and talk about something else.
>
> Hey, you give me something else to discuss, and we're happening. Tell
> me what Sagat has up his sleeve when he can't throw sh*t. Meanwhile, I
> can still make use of all of my moves, if only for block damage and
> guard crushing.
It's been gladly given. Read above.
> >> Bullsh*t. How about when Adon hits an airborne opponent with it,
> >> or an opponent in the middle of an attack animation? How unsafe is it
> >> then?
> >
> > Sorry for not stating the obvious (again).
>
> Apology not accepted. You need to start covering your bases more.
Right back atcha.
> > As for hitting you during an
> > attack, unless it's a counter hit, then Adon better be careful that they
> > don't recover first.
>
> It's not hard when you've been playing teh character for three years.
Uh huh, you must be perfect by now.
> > Are you saying Adon will never get cornered? How does any character get
> > cornered? When they're hit or knocked down then they fall back.
>
> Unfortunately for that argument, this is Alpha 3, which features air
> teching and rolling from knock-downs.
Both which are vulnerable and can be a stupid decision on your part if not
done wisely.
> As for my getting hit, I'm still
> waiting to hear how you do that with a Sagat that never throws anything.
You think your Adon will never get hit? How arrogant is that.
> > When they block, they're pushed back.
>
> Or they alpha-counter.
Next to no damage and you lose guard meter capacity. Is that really worth it
just for regaining the initiative? Alpha counters have their uses, but if
you're having to use it against Sagat, I pity you.
> Or they respond with a super.
I *dare*, no, *double dare* you to respond to a blocked attack with a super.
Sound familiar?
> > Sagat can close in and apply constant pressure to
> > an opponent through smart use of the tiger knee. After any knockdown, I
> > always tiger knee to close in. Successive tiger knees are a great way of
> > closing in real fast and it has near zero recovery time. Are you the type to
> > stick out a limb when Sagat knees toward you?
>
> Finally, a decent response! Yes, the knee is a very good move in
> any fight. Sagat doesn't have the footsie game to follow up after it
> once it's blocked, but it's still a good attack (fast, good priority,
> low recovery). Too bad I can do short jaguar knee, forward tooth,
> or short tooth from outside your normal attack range to deter that
> attack.
Nothing you will, might, or can do will deter me from using the tiger knee.
It's too fast for you to interrupt it unless you've sucessfully anticipated
it. You might be lucky to punish it when it whiffs, but you better be fast
and within range. As for followup footsie games, I've already shared a
snippet early in this post. Don't make it sound as if you have automatically
shut out my tiger knee. You couldn't be more wrong.
> >>> I think I've had my say on why the RH JK does not automatically mean the
> >>> matchup against Sagat is "for free".
> >>
> >> Again, the RH JK threat has never been my sole ammunition, so that
> >> statement (and the like ones preceding it) is irrelevant.
> >
> > You originally said the "roundhouse jaguar kick at medium range hits most of
> > Sagat's moves and trades with the rest". Maybe not your sole ammunition, but
> > if something beats "most" of Sagat's attacks, then showing why this isn't
> > true (and certainly not "free") is pretty fucking far from being irrelevant
> > to me and my argument. I'm not going to repeat myself about the flaws in
> > JKs, nor the JTs for that matter. No way is it free.
>
> You haven't showed jack sh*t! You've offered almost nothing but the
> laziest response in the world: "a deep uppercut hits it." What *else*
> are you going to use to beat a mid-range RH JK??
My game plan is not to beat it, but at the same time, RH JKs don't beat me.
You say I have offered nothing? Do you read my entire reply at all? Let me
recap for you:
1. RH JK is blocked at any range. Anyone's game afterward.
2. RH JK hits at mid-range. Anyone's game afterward.
3. RH JK hits too closely. FREE attack for Sagat.
4. RH JK whiffs and within Sagat's range. FREE attack for Sagat.
I have not stated anything new here. This is pretty much the entire RH JK
flowchart breakdown for you. I offered nothing, huh? And you have the nerve
to call me lazy.
Replace the JKs above with the JT and it still holds true.
> >>> ..or mistakingly gives his opponent intellectual credit? *cough*
> >>
> >> Of course. This can hardly be offered as proof that one character
> >> isn't trounced by another, though.
> >
> > So what does prove it? Whatever you might say or propose doesn't mean shit
> > if
> > it doesn't hold true in a real game. To me, for free means 100% of the time.
> > What does it mean to you? Maybe we're arguing over different things.
>
> 99% of the time.
That's close enough.
> > I hope we can both agree here, that the only thing that matters are the
> > people
> > behind the controls and not what the rankings or a "for free" list might
> > say.
> > You are proof of this, your Cammy lost to a grappler.
>
> *Shrug* I was bored. I lose fights when I'm bored, no matter how
> easy they are (assuming I'm fighting someone at my skill level). I
> play to enjoy myself, not to win -- winning is a side effect.
I'm not interested in your excuses for why you lost a free fight.
[snip]
Adon has an advantage over Sagat. His ground attacks are better overall,
especially since his crouching fierce and standing roundhouse won't whiff even
when he's crouching due to his size. Sagat definitely has a fight on his hands
but he does not automatically lose to Adon "for free" because of these
disadvantages. This will always be my belief, and my opinion.
James Margaris
[clip]
I don't have time for your now. If you want to pick a fight at a later time
feel free. Now get back in line.
James M
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
>In article <36A63E70...@milos-chalkboard.net>,
> "Milo D. Cooper" <mi...@milos-chalkboard.net> wrote:
>> > myk...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> >> Milo D. Cooper wrote:
>> And my response to this has been that you haven't offered dick as an
>> alternative Sagat strategy, because you know that he has none. All
>> you've retorted with is that "Sagat can't play far away, he has to play
>> close," while offering *no* viable method for his coming into that
>> range and *no* reliable attack plan once he's there. I and several
>> other people have already told you exactly why Sagat can't get in on
>> Adon, and why Adon wouldn't even care if Sagat did manage to get in his
>> face.
>Anything Adon can do in Sagat's face, Sagat can do back. Poke with low jabs,
>shorts, and strongs? Sagat can do this. He can tack on a low tiger after any
>of these should he wish to push the opponent back (towards the corner).
>Better still, he can tack on a tiger knee which keeps him close to Adon, and
>allows him to keep the pressure on. If Adon is blocking all the while, his
That's nice, except that Sagat's poking skills *SUCK* compared to
Adon. Sagat cannot poke poke tiger knee, aimlessly or otherwise, against
Adon because Adon's pokes are faster and have higher priority (you don't
need to do a short jag knee to beat the TK, at least in previous alphas).
>> > Are you saying Adon will never get cornered? How does any character get
>> > cornered? When they're hit or knocked down then they fall back.
>> Unfortunately for that argument, this is Alpha 3, which features air
>> teching and rolling from knock-downs.
>Both which are vulnerable and can be a stupid decision on your part if not
>done wisely.
Against slow ass Sagat, it's pretty safe 90% of the time, as long
as Adon is intelligent about it.
>> As for my getting hit, I'm still
>> waiting to hear how you do that with a Sagat that never throws anything.
>
>You think your Adon will never get hit? How arrogant is that.
Not very, since you [Sagat] don't really offer much of an attack line.
Tiger Ball? Not useful. Long range pokes? Mine are better. Close range
pokes? Mine are better. Throw range? Irrelevant, but I think Adon's is
longer and it seems more damaging. Supers? Sagat's supers sug, at least
Adon gets a sort-of utility super. VCs? I don't know of any Sagat
marchers, and how else will Sagat corner Adon?
>> Finally, a decent response! Yes, the knee is a very good move in
>> any fight. Sagat doesn't have the footsie game to follow up after it
>> once it's blocked, but it's still a good attack (fast, good priority,
>> low recovery). Too bad I can do short jaguar knee, forward tooth,
>> or short tooth from outside your normal attack range to deter that
>> attack.
>Nothing you will, might, or can do will deter me from using the tiger knee.
>It's too fast for you to interrupt it unless you've sucessfully anticipated
>it. You might be lucky to punish it when it whiffs, but you better be fast
>and within range. As for followup footsie games, I've already shared a
>snippet early in this post. Don't make it sound as if you have automatically
>shut out my tiger knee. You couldn't be more wrong.
Tiger Knee? Uhm... well, it's pretty easy to smack it when it
wiffs with adon, since my punishment range is way larger than you TK
range, and the priority of the move isn't all that high, relative to what
Adon can dish out. See it, VC through, let it wiff, outpoke it (not on
reaction, but safe anticipation anyways)... not a bad weapon, but not
enough.
A fight can be for free even if there isn't a stupid way to win,
like repeated air fireballs. If there are 5 things I can do, and you can
only "geuss right" once each, each exchange is 80-20 in my favor. This
does not make the fight 8-2. This makes the fight 9.999995 - 0.000005,
which I won't explain here, because this is not a stat NG and I'm tired of
this thread. Maybe Milo needs to give you a visual aide or something to
keep the discussion lively; tmfma.
Milo D. Cooper
>>>
>>> If your Sagat bases his game around the tiger shot pressure game, then I can
>>> see why you'd say Adon wins for free. Not only is this the wrong way to play
>>> Sagat in general, but even moreso against Adon who's attacks are perfect for
>>> anti-projectile attack and couple this with Sagat's horrible shot recovery
>>> you're just asking to die - for free.
>>
>> As I've atempted to explain to you more than once, the problem with
>> this argument is that Alpha Sagat has nothing to employ in lieu of his
>> absent fireball pressure game. In other words, if you can't rely on
>> tigers to hamper your opponents offense (and, again, it is definitely
>> possible to do this against several characters, though none of these
>> are Adon), what the hell else are you going to do? The most I've
>> heard you offer is to pray for a super connect, then turtle.
>
> Pray for a super, then turtle? When have I ever said that? And you say I'm
> putting words into your mouth!
That's *all* that you've offered. Your argument has been completely
passive, in the unmistakable flavor of a Street Fighter scrub. Your only
defense has been using special moves to hit whatever I do on reaction,
such as beating my superior normals *up close* with a sudden uppercut
or super (the while, assuming that I couldn't do the same). When I tell
you that I don't give a dirty fat rat's ass that you block my jaguar kick,
because I have better normal attacks that will kick the hell out of you up
close anyway, your ridiculous response is, "well I'll just uppercut or
super whatever you do." You haven't mentioned a *single* normal attack
that you might use in the fight, nor have you come up with any *active*
strategy besides the tiger knee (which trades or gets smacked cleanly by
the jaguar kick and jaguar knee, and which is no match whatsoever for the
jaguar tooth). Your belief that an in-your-face Sagat vs. Adon fight is
either character's game is striking evidence that you really don't know
this fight well at all, and as you've likely noticed, I'm not the only
experienced player here with that opinion.
>>> Agreed! And my point has been that you don't play the tiger shot game
>>> against Adon.
>>
>> And my response to this has been that you haven't offered dick as an
>> alternative Sagat strategy, because you know that he has none. All
>> you've retorted with is that "Sagat can't play far away, he has to play
>> close," while offering *no* viable method for his coming into that
>> range and *no* reliable attack plan once he's there. I and several
>> other people have already told you exactly why Sagat can't get in on
>> Adon, and why Adon wouldn't even care if Sagat did manage to get in his
>> face.
>
> Anything Adon can do in Sagat's face, Sagat can do back. Poke with low jabs,
> shorts, and strongs? Sagat can do this.
Half as well as Adon, that is. His normals are too slow and they are
easy to stuff. Other players here corroborate this (though they shouldn't
have to, as this is extremely obvious to anyone who's seen this match
*once*). And you still aren't explaining how you get close to me or
corner me. (Waiting for me to JK in, I presume?)
> He can tack on a low tiger after any
> of these should he wish to push the opponent back (towards the corner).
> Better still, he can tack on a tiger knee which keeps him close to Adon, and
> allows him to keep the pressure on.
A point-blank tiger knee is just as retaliable as a point-blank jaguar
knee -- i.e. free hit for Adon. Your argument is all too transparent, pal.
> If Adon is blocking all the while, his
> guard meter will be depleted as well as some block damage from the knee or
> low tiger. When I grow tired of your turtling I might decide to hit you with
> a low fierce or roundhouse, to really hurt your guard meter, or I may choose
> to throw instead. That's just one variant of an attack plan. I'm not claiming
> it to be flawless but if you honestly believe this is nothing for Adon to
> care about then there's no point in me continuing this discussion. Seems like
> you have an answer for everything, and Adon has an automatic action to beat
> anything Sagat might do.
*AGAIN*, all I have to do is go off the wall. Maybe you haven't
figured it out yet, but it's pretty easy for characters who fly, teleport,
or rebound off the side of the screen to escape close-range pressure
games.
>>> You originally said, and I quote:
>>>
>>> "Low fierce if Sagat jumps in or throws a high tiger.."
>>>
>>> It was not obvious here which range you were talking about. You were
>>> discussing Adon's low fierce against a jump in or a high tiger.
>>
>> If you really do play Adon and you know WtF you're talking about, the
>> range that I meant *is* very obvious. If Sagat jumps in from anything
>> but long range (i.e. not just close range), he can be hit with the low
>> fierce.
>
> In your last paragraph you say the low fierce is not a long range option, yet
> you claim that in your original statement (from the layout of the response,
> blah blah blah) that it *is* a long range option. Why don't you make up
> _your_ mind? When you don't follow my point because I haven't stated the
> obvious, then it's my fault for not covering my bases. But when you cause
> ambiguity because you haven't stated the obvious, then it's still my fault
> because I don't know my sh*t, don't know WtF I'm talking about, etc, etc. I
> _know_ that the low fierce is not a long range option...
Time for school. In Street Fighter, to "jump in" means to approach
the opponent from the air by moving the joystick diagonally up and
toward one's foe, with the intention or possibility of landing an
attack. It doesn't mean simply jumping forward from anywhere on the
screen. *That* is simply called "jumping forward." Since you're a
scrub, you don't know the distinction between the two, and are
confused.
>>> The low
>>> fierce will not hit at long range (I don't consider it's hitting range as
>>> long range) and even then, Sagat is stupid to throw a high tiger at anyone
>>> who can hit him from a crouch, no matter what the range.
>>
>> Huh? Then what the hell did you mean when you wrote this:
>>
>> 'yet even in mid range (outside of Adon's reach), a high tiger
>> is quite safe for Sagat. There is certainly nothing "for free"
>> here for Adon.'
>>
>> I didn't even have to go back to an old post to get that; it's part
>> of your excerpts in this one. What's it gonna be, dude? Is the high
>> tiger "stupid... no matter what the range," or "quite safe"?
>
> If you're quoting me, then do it properly, and keep it in context. The two
> statements:
>
> 1. ..is stupid to throw a high tiger at anyone who can hit him from a crouch,
> no matter what the range. 2. ..(outside of Adon's reach), a high tiger is
> quite safe for Sagat.
>
> are correct. What's it gonna be? It's both. There's nothing complicated here,
> it's quite straightfoward. How could you have a problem understanding this?
> Don't pick it apart and change it's meaning.
Again, it's time for another lesson. The problem comes from what is
apparently poor grammar on your part: "The low fierce will not hit,
*and even then* Sagat is stupid to throw high tigers." "And even then"
is a conjunctive phrase which indicates that the points made before it
make up an inadequate solution in themselves. For example: "A prison
inmate who wants to maintain a rapport with his children is going to
have a tough time of it while he's incarcerated, *and even then*, his
children may want nothing to with a father who happens to be a
convicted criminal."
>>> What are you getting all worked up about? I've already agreed as to the high
>>> tigers _usefulness_, especially against Adon (just read my replies above).
>>
>> Let's quote you from above:
>>
>> 'Sagat is stupid to throw a high tiger at anyone who can hit
>> him from a crouch, no matter what the range.'
>>
>> You can't make up your damned mind. *That's* what I'm worked up
>> about (par for the course, with this weak-ass newsgroup).
>
> Oh, so now you decide to quote me correctly. My mind is already made up.
> Again, what part didn't you get?
Your sh*t-ass grammar.
>>> I'm
>>> arguing that throwing tiger shots in general is a weak _strategy_ overall,
>>> and it's no surprise that you would conclude Sagat loses for free. What
>>> situation are you hoping to force against Adon? A jump in? More than likely
>>> you'll force him to JKsuper.
>>
>> The jab high tiger is effective at keeping Adon from toothing off the
>> wall. This, at least, alleviates a major portion of Adon's fake-out
>> game, as well as his highest priority attack. It's not enough to allow
>> Sagat to win the fight, but it helps.
>
> Agreed.
>
>>> We're talking about Adon here.
>>
>> Not in this part of the debate, we aren't. You said that Sagat's
>> tiger shot pressuring was worthless across the board. I'm saying
>> that you're full of it, and that against some characters (though *not*
>> Adon), his tiger shots, though not as powerful as they were before
>> the Alpha series, are actually very effective -- in particular, versus
>> grapplers and characters with lateral dashing attacks.
>
> I won't deny their effectiveness against certain characters (some more than
> others), but I still believe that a mixed up tiger game is not enough to win
> a fight in general.
That hardly makes it useless, though!
> This is a general statement, yes, across the board. Last
> time I checked, the majority of players are not grapplers and don't have
> lateral dashing attacks, so this generalisation holds true. Even so, when I
> know the tiger shot can be used (abused) against certain characters, I tend
> not to use it, and prefer to work my way in close, where I can dish out some
> real damage. For me, this has been much more effective than the fireball
> game. Pecking away with tiger shots bores me to hell.
Pecking away?? WtF?? Tigers are set-up ammo. Show me where I
wrote that tigers should ever be used as a primary source of damage.
>>> Did you even read what I wrote? All the flaws of the jag kick/tooth, which I
>>> described in detail, will really hurt Adon if he isn't careful as to how he
>>> uses them. And don't tell me that all of Adon's attacks are perfectly
>>> placed.
>>> At the end of the day, it's a guessing game after Adon's jag kick or tooth.
>>> If they hit too closely, Adon is punished "for free" -- there is nothing he
>>> can do about it. If they are blocked, it's anyone's game - Sagat's tiger
>>> uppercut will beat any of Adon's fantastic normals, but Adon can Super and
>>> beat Sagat's uppercut, and then again Adon can do nothing but block, maybe
>>> get a whiffed uppercut, etc, etc. You see what I'm saying? This fight ain't
>>> free.
>>
>> You're not going to weasal your way out of this thread by being
>> ambiguous and putting words into my mouth. Why point out that deep
>> jaguar kicks are potentially answerable when I never once made them
>> part of my reasoning that this fight is free for Adon?
>
> So you play a perfect Adon, and all your JKs are placed perfectly, never too
> deep. Right, I think I gotcha.
It's certainly no more absurd than your boasting that you can
uppercut short, jabs, and jaguar kicks/tooths on reaction! Far *less*
absurd, in fact.
>> The jaguar
>> kick is generally a mid-range move, and if your Sagat blocks it, I
>> *dare* you to do something as stupid as performing an uppercut
>> immediately (or even not immediately) afterward.
>
> Your *dare* amuses me. For the umpteenth time, after a blocked JK it's
> _anyone's_ game! How many times must I tell you this before it gets through
> that thick skull of yours? You *dare* me to uppercut? What if I don't
> uppercut? While you're comfortably sitting there in a crouch block, *daring*
> me to uppercut I decide tiger knee towards you instead? What if low strong
> into low tiger? What if I don't do jack? It's a mind game here. It's not free
> for Adon, so don't use this as part of your reasoning as to why Adon wins for
> free.
This argument is no longer any good. It's been destroyed by several
people in this newsgroup. Adon's close game is well superior to
Sagat's; Adon has faster moves that have greater priority.
>> The worst that
>> happens to me is that I do nothing but block damage. I can do a
>> short jaguar kick in your face and get on the other side of you, and
>> you *still* won't be able to do jack.
>
> No, if you hop over me with a short JK (which obviously whiffed) then there's
> _nothing_you_can_do_ but eat a low strong into low tiger or super. That's a
> fact, jack. You can't block it. It's "for free". I've said it before, and I've
> said it again, the recovery on the JKs suck. Don't play the JK game with me,
> because you won't win for free.
Quite simply, you don't know what you're talking about. A point-
blank short jaguar kick puts me well past your back, and out of reach
of all of your fastest normals. You *might* be able to get off a low
roundhouse *if* you saw the move coming. Low strong will *not* reach.
>>> Did you read what I wrote? The tooth will be hit cleanly by a deep uppercut
>>> (I've done it a zillion times). If you throw in a tooth during your footsie
>>> game, I'll see it coming and either uppercut it, jump up, or block it. This
>>> fight ain't free.
>>
>> Unless you have me cornered, you can't hit the forward tooth with
>> a deep uppercut. It won't come close enough. What's more, what if I
>> do a *short* tooth instead of a forward tooth (and I've been known
>> to do this)? You uppercut, and I smack you for free. What is it
>> with you and the uppercuts? Are you a mind-reader or something?
>
> I'm no mind reader, but nor am I the type to uppercut the instant I see Adon
> go into his JT. Even if I did, your roundhouse JT would hit my (too early)
> uppercut cleanly. Sorry, I don't uppercut like that. Anyway, my preference
> has always been to jump straight up and my followup depends on where Adon
> lands. If he stupidly lands right under me, he eats big damage "for free". If
> he faked, nobody loses. Back to square one.
Nope! Low fierce, baby! It hits you when I forward jaguar tooth
and you jump straight up. HEE-HEE, a virtual ass-kicking!
>>> My impetuousity? Unless you can perfectly place your JKs then the instant
>>> you
>>> hit it too close, I'll uppercut you without even thinking about it. The
>>> whole JK/JT game does not make this fight free for Adon.
>>
>> I'm not going to "hit it too close." Just remember that; it'll save
>> me from having to wade through your bullsh*t in the future.
>
> Yes, I've made note that you perfectly place all your JKs all of the time.
> With your perfect placement, it just means Sagat doesn't get anything for
> free, but note that Adon sure as hell doesn't get anything for free either.
> Don't play your JK game with me.
In other words, since you have to admit that you can't attack worth a
sh*t against Adon, you basically turtle, waiting for me to JK or JT,
then respond with normal into tiger or knee for block damage. Sounds to
me like I'm still controlling the fight, and that I have a better chance
of making you react as I please, since you're the reactionary turtle.
>>> You'll throw out your shorts, jabs and forwards after a blocked JK/JT? Did
>>> you not read what I wrote? An uppercut or super will beat these attacks. My
>>> point is that this little scenario, and the whole damn fight, is not free
>>> for Adon.
>>
>> Hey man, if you want to waste super meter and/or risk losing up to
>> 40% of your life bar doing uppercuts and supers after a blocked
>> special, go right ahead and die! I'd have a field day with your ass.
>
> Enough already! Don't assume I'll respond to your blocked specials the same
> way every time. So what if I take a little guard damage. The next move is
> anyone's for the taking.
But I'm controlling the fight, because you're just reacting to
whatever I do *and* you have no game plan for dealing out anything
more than block damage. Why not just admit that you have no
strategy?
>>> haha, yes, this all gets back to your original argument and my original
>>> reply. Your Sagat throws fireballs (and eats JK/JTs).. mine doesn't.
>>
>> So you turtle? Great, I'll turtle too. You still can't jump in,
>> you still can't beat my faster and higher-priority normals at close
>> range, you still can't pressure me.
>
> Since when did not throwing fireballs = turtle? Huh? I despise turtling, I
> never do it in any fighting game I play and I definitely do _not_ turtle with
> Sagat. He's not even turtle friendly.
Really! Then WtF is your game plan, beyond waiting for me to
attack so you can do piddly-ass block damage? What's your plan
for getting off the big hits?
>>> My mistake here. The short knee is safe when blocked in the air, but what
>>> about on the ground?
>>
>> Yeah, like I'm going to jaguar knee you if you're sitting there in
>> defensive crouch.
>
> Of course you're not, but what if you went for a deep knee, but was too late
> and I'm on the ground by the time I block it. Oh hang on, you must be perfect
> with your knees too.
This debate is over. Your argument has collapsed into playing the
"what if" game. I win. What if you forgot that the short knee has
sick recovery time, and I level three punch super your scrubby ass?
>>> Absolutely nothing, which is WHHHYYY I've been saying DON'T THROW
>>> PROJECTILES
>>> against Adon since the beginning of this whole damn argument. Don't throw
>>> projectiles and Adon has no anti-projectile game. Leave the careless tiger
>>> shots out of this and talk about something else.
>>
>> Hey, you give me something else to discuss, and we're happening. Tell
>> me what Sagat has up his sleeve when he can't throw sh*t. Meanwhile, I
>> can still make use of all of my moves, if only for block damage and
>> guard crushing.
>
> It's been gladly given. Read above.
It's sh*t.
>>> Sorry for not stating the obvious (again).
>>
>> Apology not accepted. You need to start covering your bases more.
>
> Right back atcha.
Yuk-yuk.
>>> As for hitting you during an
>>> attack, unless it's a counter hit, then Adon better be careful that they
>>> don't recover first.
>>
>> It's not hard when you've been playing teh character for three years.
>
> Uh huh, you must be perfect by now.
Kneel before your lord and master, b*tch.
>>> Are you saying Adon will never get cornered? How does any character get
>>> cornered? When they're hit or knocked down then they fall back.
>>
>> Unfortunately for that argument, this is Alpha 3, which features air
>> teching and rolling from knock-downs.
>
> Both which are vulnerable and can be a stupid decision on your part if not
> done wisely.
Then assume that I do them wisely. You don't win debates by pretending
that your opponent is stupid. It makes *you* look bad, not me.
>> As for my getting hit, I'm still
>> waiting to hear how you do that with a Sagat that never throws anything.
>
> You think your Adon will never get hit? How arrogant is that.
Mr. Mcisaac answered this beautifully. Thanks, Shaun.
>>> When they block, they're pushed back.
>>
>> Or they alpha-counter.
>
> Next to no damage and you lose guard meter capacity. Is that really worth it
> just for regaining the initiative?
Against a turtle like yourself, yes.
> Alpha counters have their uses, but if
> you're having to use it against Sagat, I pity you.
Why pity me when I'm the one controlling the match. If anything's
pitiful, it's your turtling, no attack-plan *ass*.
>> Or they respond with a super.
>
> I *dare*, no, *double dare* you to respond to a blocked attack with a super.
> Sound familiar?
Come up to me with a Sagat and do a low roundhouse or an uppercut
while I'm blocking. Dude, better yet, just go away, you're done.
>>> Sagat can close in and apply constant pressure to
>>> an opponent through smart use of the tiger knee. After any knockdown, I
>>> always tiger knee to close in. Successive tiger knees are a great way of
>>> closing in real fast and it has near zero recovery time. Are you the type to
>>> stick out a limb when Sagat knees toward you?
>>
>> Finally, a decent response! Yes, the knee is a very good move in
>> any fight. Sagat doesn't have the footsie game to follow up after it
>> once it's blocked, but it's still a good attack (fast, good priority,
>> low recovery). Too bad I can do short jaguar knee, forward tooth,
>> or short tooth from outside your normal attack range to deter that
>> attack.
>
> Nothing you will, might, or can do will deter me from using the tiger knee.
> It's too fast for you to interrupt it unless you've sucessfully anticipated
> it. You might be lucky to punish it when it whiffs, but you better be fast
> and within range. As for followup footsie games, I've already shared a
> snippet early in this post. Don't make it sound as if you have automatically
> shut out my tiger knee. You couldn't be more wrong.
Who needs to anticipate it? I can go JK's or JT's from safe range
(i.e. you can't answer them) that will hit you cleanly should you
elect to tiger knee at all. I'm in the driver's seat. I'm in my Sagat
car and I'm cruising all over town with your sh*t. WHEEEEE!!
>>> You originally said the "roundhouse jaguar kick at medium range hits most of
>>> Sagat's moves and trades with the rest". Maybe not your sole ammunition, but
>>> if something beats "most" of Sagat's attacks, then showing why this isn't
>>> true (and certainly not "free") is pretty fucking far from being irrelevant
>>> to me and my argument. I'm not going to repeat myself about the flaws in
>>> JKs, nor the JTs for that matter. No way is it free.
>>
>> You haven't showed jack sh*t! You've offered almost nothing but the
>> laziest response in the world: "a deep uppercut hits it." What *else*
>> are you going to use to beat a mid-range RH JK??
>
> My game plan is not to beat it, but at the same time, RH JKs don't beat me.
> You say I have offered nothing? Do you read my entire reply at all? Let me
> recap for you:
>
> 1. RH JK is blocked at any range. Anyone's game afterward.
Except my normals beat yours!
> 2. RH JK hits at mid-range. Anyone's game afterward.
Except I've done damage and you haven't!
> 3. RH JK hits too closely. FREE attack for Sagat.
Won't happen. Not stupid.
> 4. RH JK whiffs and within Sagat's range. FREE attack for Sagat.
Won't happen. Not stupid.
> I have not stated anything new here. This is pretty much the entire RH JK
> flowchart breakdown for you. I offered nothing, huh? And you have the nerve
> to call me lazy.
That's exactly what you've come up with: nothing. If you have
anything more to say, you'll pretty much be talking to the hand, as
far as I'm concerned. I'm going to go into serious overdrive dump-
a-sh*t-on-you mode if you keep this crap up. Care for another round?
James Margaris
[clip]
>
> That's nice, except that Sagat's poking skills *SUCK* compared to
>Adon. Sagat cannot poke poke tiger knee, aimlessly or otherwise, against
>Adon because Adon's pokes are faster and have higher priority (you don't
>need to do a short jag knee to beat the TK, at least in previous alphas).
>
The heart of your argument is that aince Adon has better pokes than
Sagat he wins for free. Under this logic aren't there an awful lot of for free
fights?
Who else has a much better poking game than Sagat? Gen, Sakura,
Charlie, K/R/A, Dhalsim, Rolento, Vega...hell, who doesn't have a better
poking game? Are all of these fights "for free?"
> A fight can be for free even if there isn't a stupid way to win,
>like repeated air fireballs. If there are 5 things I can do, and you can
>only "geuss right" once each, each exchange is 80-20 in my favor. This
>does not make the fight 8-2. This makes the fight 9.999995 - 0.000005,
>which I won't explain here, because this is not a stat NG and I'm tired of
>this thread.
I agree with the math, but not with the premise. Of the 5 things you
can do, they do not require 5 different responses. If you low strong, low jab,
J Kick or Knee I can do the same thing: block. You make it sound like you have
five totally different attack avenues that if I don't guess right will hit, so
I get hit 4 of 5 times. That is clearly not the case.
What happens if I get ahead? You don't have any safe block damage,
except maybe Jag Kick from the perfect range, which is a crap shoot, and if I
am ahead by more than a few pixels I will get you to screw up. As for the
jaguar tooth...you can buffer the Tiger Uppercut motion and then pres the
button if it was the roundhouse tooth. Don't try to claim that this doesn't
work. It's about as hard as doing a low strong and buffering a super and
pressing the button only if the strong hits. (Actually, it's easier than this)
Neither one is easy, and both require discipline, but when Adon goes
off the wall you know there is only one thing he can possibly do, and that is
Jag tooth, so every time you can focus solely on buffering the motion and
doing the TU.
James M
James Margaris
Anyone noticing a problem with this discussion? What the hell are we
arguing about? Milo, what are you trying to convince us of? That ADon beats
Sagat? WE ALL AGREE!
We are arguing about the "for free" ness of the fight, but you haven't
given any definition of what you consider "for free," nor did you respond to
the definition I gave. (It was in a post responding to His Brainlessness so
you might have missed it)
I'm not even sure if we disagree. If your notion of "for free" is that
the fight is easy then you are right. Personally my definition of for free
truly is "for free." If you are playing for real, have your hands on the
controller, have some SF competence and aren't REALLY REALLY unlucky you will
win all the time. Just like if I block a fierce DP I can hit you for free.
There is nothing you can do, other than hope my controller fucks up.
It's pointless to continue if we are just arguing about definitions.
Just tell me what you think "for free" means, then we can see if we agree or
not.
It's ludicrous to argue when we have two different definitions of the
key term. Are elephants big? Well, is that compared to a mouse or a whale? WE
might agree on the size of an elephant yet you might be saying:
"Look, $%*(#, an elephant is less than 1/10000000 of the size of the
universe"
While I might say
"You stupid ^&#$(, an elephant is huge, it's 1000000x bigger than an
electron."
Stupid analogy but it works. The point is we could go on forever and
not resolve anything.
Just tell me what "for free" means already!
You even admitted that your friend Mark Zedaker got whalloped by
Sagat. That hardly sounds like a free win for Adon then. Anyway, before we
argue further please let me know WHAT exactly we are trying to prove or
disprove. Arguing is fun, but pointless arguing is tedious.
James M
Umair Yousufi
>In article <36A30925...@milos-chalkboard.net>,>> > James Margaris wrote:
>
>> > This is just about the lamest justification I have ever read.
>>
>> I know you are, but what am I?
>
>ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Since most people on this group were not here at the time of Ming, I will
>provide a little background. About 2 years ago now, Milo Cooper and James
>Margaris (who has STILL not contributed ONE BIT of SF knowledge to the group)
>had a excessively long drawn out flamewar. An absolutely hilarious parody of
>it was done by one Umari Yousufi. Part 2 of it (I can't find part 1) can be
>found at
Oh man, that seems like *forever* ago... With how rarely I post (no SFA3
here in Boulder and I suck at MvC, so I don't have much to contribute),
I'm surprised (though touched <sniff> ;_; ) anyone even remembers. Well,
you did misspell my name though (should be: Umair) so that brings me right
back down to size ;)
Shame about the Part 1 though. I can't imagine why DejaNews wouldn't have
it. If anyone's interested, I'll scrounge through my disks and see if I
still have a copy.
>
>http://x16.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=142123618.1&CONTEXT=916735462.1010499849&hi
>tnum=11
>
>Of the many threads that ensued, two of the funniest were Ming's flames of
>Milo and James. I highly encourage you, if you have the time, to check out
>the related threads on DejaNews. In any case, here is, reposted for
>completeness, Ming's manhandling of poor James...
>
>(this post can be found at)
>http://x13.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=142500435&CONTEXT=916734809.395968710&hi
>tnum=14
[...]
Yeah, Ming's posts were hilarious (again, with, apologies to James...). I
stopped reading the newsgroup for a while (just started up again a few
months ago), and I haven't seen any of his posts since, though. Still,
its good to see regulars like Tom Cannon, you (Julien), and, yeah, James
and Milo around.
Anyway, I don't want to dwell on the past too much. SFA3 seems to be the
best release in quite a while (too bad it didn't get a larger distribution
in the arcades, but at least the psx version is supposed to be excellent),
and the traffic on the newsgroup seems to be getting better as a result.
Well, at least it's better than it was when I left (even the long Adon vs.
Sagat thread was on-topic (if a bit repetitive) until your post ;).
Still, having previewed some of the followups in this thread, if they get
any more abrasive and irritating, I might have to free up some time and
start misting another post ^_^
--
Umair Yousufi
yousufi at ucsub dot colorado dot edu (remove 'stepaside' to reply)
Milo D. Cooper
>
> [...]
> Just tell me what "for free" means already!
It means that, 99% of the time (- 0 to 9%, depending on skill level
differential between the two players), one character is going to beat
another in a match. The extra 1% is reserved for extraneous factors
like fatigue, boredom, luck, faulty controls, and suchlike.
--
/|__Milo D. Cooper________________EverQuest character modeler__|\
\| http://www.milos-chalkboard.net http://www.everquest.com |/
James Margaris
>In article <781h2k$fl7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <j...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>>In article <36A30925...@milos-chalkboard.net>,
>> "Milo D. Cooper" <mi...@milos-chalkboard.net> wrote:
Even when you first posted the MST3K thing I had to admit it was very funny.
The purpose was humor, not to insult, so I don't (didn't) take any offense at
it. I laughed out loud at it actually.
As for Deja News, it sucks. I trued it the other day (to settle some dispute)
and it didn't have most of my posts from when A3 came out. I'm not sure how it
supposedly "works" but it does seem to lose a lot of stuff.
James M
I
This thread has to be a joke right? It is inconcievable to think that players
would even fathom that a matchup is "for free". Yet, I see many idiotic posts
breaking down matchups and actually trying justify this bogus and preposterous
concept.
To even remotely justify this discussion, one character would have to have *every*
advantage in the matchup: speed, range, power, damage, specials, supers,
priority, etc. Even so, there are many intangibles within the actual fight that
would still grant the inferior character a window of oppurtunity and a chance to win.
Take this Adon vs Sagat debate. Some say the argument falls on creditability and
experience of the player of whether or not Adon beats Sagat "for free". Wrong!
Competency of using the character is variable. Even when "the best" Adon and Sagat
players are competeing, they are playing the characters imperfectly due to
inescapable human error. Even if the characters are AI-controlled, the AI programming
itself is programmed by humans and the perceptions of the contest are not completely
realized. Human error again interferes.
Now suppose we create a "for free" contest...say Ryu vs Blanka. The contest will be
AI oreientated to avoid human error and Ryu is programmed to just stand there and uppercut
whenever an attack from Blanka is about to hit Ryu (the uppercut is invincible, knocks
Blanka to the floor, and recovers before Blanka can perform any retaliation). Ryu wins
perfectly. Inhuman anticipation grants this "for free" fight.
Now back to SFA3 Adon vs Sagat. Are there any invincible moves to create a "for
free" fight? Do Adons specials and normals trade with Sagats uppercuts? What are the
priorities given Adon is at coordinates [x,y,z] and Sagat [a,b,c]? It is difficult(perhaps
impossible) to account *every* instance of the fight. Thus, the debate is pure speculation.
Stop this nonsensical bullsh*t.
--
I...@I.COM
e-mail: invin...@w3.to
http://w3.to/invincible
Chocobo
> Please.
>
> This thread has to be a joke right? It is inconcievable to think that players
> would even fathom that a matchup is "for free". Yet, I see many idiotic posts
> breaking down matchups and actually trying justify this bogus and preposterous
> concept.
Once again you show your lack of knowledge.
> To even remotely justify this discussion, one character would have to have *every*
> advantage in the matchup: speed, range, power, damage, specials, supers,
> priority, etc. Even so, there are many intangibles within the actual fight that
> would still grant the inferior character a window of oppurtunity and a chance to win.
Try this- in SSF2, have someone use Cammy, and repeatedly stick out low forwards. Play as
T.Hawk. If you jump, have them do the cannon spike. Otherwise, Cammy should do nothing but low
forwards. T.Hawk can not win. There is no window of opportunity.
I
>
>I wrote:
>
>> Please.
>>
>> This thread has to be a joke right? It is inconcievable to think that players
>> would even fathom that a matchup is "for free". Yet, I see many idiotic posts
>> breaking down matchups and actually trying justify this bogus and preposterous
>> concept.
>
>Once again you show your lack of knowledge.
Ah, entertainment has arrived...
>> To even remotely justify this discussion, one character would have to have *every*
>> advantage in the matchup: speed, range, power, damage, specials, supers,
>> priority, etc. Even so, there are many intangibles within the actual fight that
>> would still grant the inferior character a window of oppurtunity and a chance to win.
>
>Try this- in SSF2, have someone use Cammy, and repeatedly stick out low forwards. Play as
>T.Hawk. If you jump, have them do the cannon spike. Otherwise, Cammy should do nothing but low
>forwards. T.Hawk can not win. There is no window of opportunity.
Are 100% certain? Hrmmm?
How about this? SF2WW, Guile vs Ken. Round begins and Guile immediately "magic-throws" Ken
and makes him boogie on the floor until he is dead.
Exercise: Between your example and mine, which one is truely "for free"?
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
James Margaris <js...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>In article <F5y5F...@midway.uchicago.edu>, spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu (Shaun Patrick Mcisaac) wrote:
>> That's nice, except that Sagat's poking skills *SUCK* compared to
>>Adon. Sagat cannot poke poke tiger knee, aimlessly or otherwise, against
>>Adon because Adon's pokes are faster and have higher priority (you don't
>>need to do a short jag knee to beat the TK, at least in previous alphas).
> The heart of your argument is that aince Adon has better pokes than
>Sagat he wins for free. Under this logic aren't there an awful lot of for free
>fights?
Wow, you really are an idiot. The heart of my argument is that
Adon leaves Sagat functionless. Sagat cannot play tiger ball games, range
games, poke games, tick games, or any other kind of games.
>> A fight can be for free even if there isn't a stupid way to win,
>>like repeated air fireballs. If there are 5 things I can do, and you can
>>only "geuss right" once each, each exchange is 80-20 in my favor. This
>>does not make the fight 8-2. This makes the fight 9.999995 - 0.000005,
>>which I won't explain here, because this is not a stat NG and I'm tired of
>>this thread.
> I agree with the math, but not with the premise. Of the 5 things you
>can do, they do not require 5 different responses. If you low strong, low jab,
>J Kick or Knee I can do the same thing: block. You make it sound like you have
>five totally different attack avenues that if I don't guess right will hit, so
>I get hit 4 of 5 times. That is clearly not the case.
Obviously, you have no idea what I, Milo, and everyone else on
this thread is talking about when we describe Adon's advantages, so I
suggest you hit yourself in the head with a hammer until the brain
damage, by random chance, either:
A) Kills you or
B) Causes you to do something interesting, like type a coherent argument
up.
At least Klien was interesting.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
<ZONK James attempt to be academic>
No, I'm not going to tell you what the definition of for free is,
since about 3 (agreeing) definitions have been given already by Milo, Bob,
and myself. You figure it out.
Chocobo
> In article <36A966C3...@mindspring.com>, cho...@mindspring.com says...
> >
> >I wrote:
> >
> >> Please.
> >>
> >> This thread has to be a joke right? It is inconcievable to think that players
> >> would even fathom that a matchup is "for free". Yet, I see many idiotic posts
> >> breaking down matchups and actually trying justify this bogus and preposterous
> >> concept.
> >
> >Once again you show your lack of knowledge.
>
> Ah, entertainment has arrived...
>
> >> To even remotely justify this discussion, one character would have to have *every*
> >> advantage in the matchup: speed, range, power, damage, specials, supers,
> >> priority, etc. Even so, there are many intangibles within the actual fight that
> >> would still grant the inferior character a window of oppurtunity and a chance to win.
> >
> >Try this- in SSF2, have someone use Cammy, and repeatedly stick out low forwards. Play as
> >T.Hawk. If you jump, have them do the cannon spike. Otherwise, Cammy should do nothing but low
> >forwards. T.Hawk can not win. There is no window of opportunity.
>
> Are 100% certain? Hrmmm?
>
Yep.
>
> How about this? SF2WW, Guile vs Ken. Round begins and Guile immediately "magic-throws" Ken
> and makes him boogie on the floor until he is dead.
>
> Exercise: Between your example and mine, which one is truely "for free"?
Both. And there are a lot more in all the SF games.
I
>> >Try this- in SSF2, have someone use Cammy, and repeatedly stick out low forwards. Play as
>> >T.Hawk. If you jump, have them do the cannon spike. Otherwise, Cammy should do nothing but low
>> >forwards. T.Hawk can not win. There is no window of opportunity.
>>
>> Are 100% certain? Hrmmm?
>>
>
>Yep.
Ah, T.Hawk's short is useless right? Too slow to beat Cammy's low forward...
>> How about this? SF2WW, Guile vs Ken. Round begins and Guile immediately "magic-throws" Ken
>> and makes him boogie on the floor until he is dead.
>>
>> Exercise: Between your example and mine, which one is truely "for free"?
>
>Both. And there are a lot more in all the SF games.
Mine, and I concur that there are other instances throughout the series.
Though this dicussion in this thread does not interest me in the least bit, I must assert
that the problem is the different meaning of the phrase "for free". Realize, if it's not
100% guaranteed, it is not "free".
I'll refine the definition and include other possible matchups:
"free" - guaranteed
"discount" - favorable
"retail" - competitive
"expensive" - difficult
"priceless" - impossible
The next task will to categorize each match respectively. You'll find that there will be
practically no "free"/"priceless" matches. Of course, categorizing is pure speculation...
Exercise: Categorize SFA3
James Margaris
>In article <78ajkq$b...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>,
>James Margaris <js...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>>In article <F5y5F...@midway.uchicago.edu>, spmc...@midway.uchicago.edu
> (Shaun Patrick Mcisaac) wrote:
>>> That's nice, except that Sagat's poking skills *SUCK* compared to
>>>Adon. Sagat cannot poke poke tiger knee, aimlessly or otherwise, against
>>>Adon because Adon's pokes are faster and have higher priority (you don't
>>>need to do a short jag knee to beat the TK, at least in previous alphas).
>> The heart of your argument is that aince Adon has better pokes than
>>Sagat he wins for free. Under this logic aren't there an awful lot of for free
>
>>fights?
>
> Wow, you really are an idiot. The heart of my argument is that
>Adon leaves Sagat functionless. Sagat cannot play tiger ball games, range
>games, poke games, tick games, or any other kind of games.
No, you are the idiot. Sagat can (or should) not play tiger ball games or
longe range games against anyone, with very few exceptions. Sagat has worse
poke game and tick game than most characters, which makes him bad, but he does
not lose for free in these bad matches. How is Adon different from Chun-Li,
Gen, etc. All have anti-air that he can't pentrate and better pokes, as well
as better throw range. Why aren't these for free.
To say that Sagat can't play poke games is a foolish statement. He can
play them, he just loses them most but not all of the time. Furthermore Sagat
can play very aggressivly with judicious use of the tiger knee. Tiger knee,
low short, tiger knee, they flinch, uppercut. No, this is not foolproof, but
it is a strategy that works.
>
>>> A fight can be for free even if there isn't a stupid way to win,
>>>like repeated air fireballs. If there are 5 things I can do, and you can
>>>only "geuss right" once each, each exchange is 80-20 in my favor. This
>>>does not make the fight 8-2. This makes the fight 9.999995 - 0.000005,
>>>which I won't explain here, because this is not a stat NG and I'm tired of
>>>this thread.
Do you really think the fight is 9.999995 - 0.000005? If you are ever in the
Northeast once. I'm sure that by throwing out totally random supers I can win
at least 1/100 of the time.
James M
James Margaris
>
><ZONK James attempt to be academic>
>
> No, I'm not going to tell you what the definition of for free is,
>since about 3 (agreeing) definitions have been given already by Milo, Bob,
>and myself. You figure it out.
Well, I suppose one man's "academic" is another man's "not idiotic." I don't
remember you or Milo giving a definition of "for free." Oh wait, I get it,
"for free" means "a fight close to the Adon vs. Sagat fight." Gee, looks like
I lose huh?
James M
ps: stop trolling you fool
I
>
>> James Margaris wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>> Just tell me what "for free" means already!
>
> It means that, 99% of the time (- 0 to 9%, depending on skill level
>differential between the two players), one character is going to beat
>another in a match. The extra 1% is reserved for extraneous factors
>like fatigue, boredom, luck, faulty controls, and suchlike.
You cannot put a percentage or any numerical computation on an unknown. We can only
approximate the probable outcome given our individual *limited* experiences. It is
all speculation regardless.
The phrase "for free" is too strict and suggests a guaranteed victory. Not realistic.
VX Gene
out low
>forwards. Play as
>T.Hawk. If you jump, have them do the cannon spike. Otherwise, Cammy should
>do nothing but low
>forwards. T.Hawk can not win. There is no window of opportunity.
In theory, no. I know I'm going in over my head, I'm no SF expert, but
say for instance, the Hawk jumps straight up, and Cammy flinches with a Cannon
Spike. The Spike misses, and Hawk lets loose. What about Condor Dive vs.
Spike? Spike wins, I assume, but I'm asking, since Cammy and Hawk are two of
my lesser played characters. Yes, Cammy probably has a very distinct
advantage, but "I"'s theory is true... human error can get in the way, so even
though there is a disadvantage, it wouldn't really be absolutely free, would
it? Free, I think, would be suited for match instances, not match-ups. Like
the "they jump, they get DP'd" example posted earlier.
--
Gene
Management Director @
Vortex Gaming Online (http://www.vortexonline.com)
Chocobo
Human error isn't taken into consideration. Zangief kills everyone, if they flinch
and miss anti-air moves... but Zangief in reality is pretty weak in A3.
Snoop
"magic-throws" Ken
>and makes him boogie on the floor until he is dead.
>
I haven't tested this yet, but isn't the range at the start of a fight in
WW, too far for guile to execute the magic throw?
Snoop
Francis Ibanez
Well cpu Ken's pattern in SF2WW usually either starts he jumps back then
throws an fb or hk's toward you then dp's. You can magic throw him if he
hk's toward you.
For what it's worth, if I use Ryu in SF2WW without any challengers, all
my fights until the end is for free.
Francis Ibanez
I
>>> That's nice, except that Sagat's poking skills *SUCK* compared to
>>>Adon. Sagat cannot poke poke tiger knee, aimlessly or otherwise, against
>>>Adon because Adon's pokes are faster and have higher priority (you don't
>>>need to do a short jag knee to beat the TK, at least in previous alphas).
>> The heart of your argument is that aince Adon has better pokes than
>>Sagat he wins for free. Under this logic aren't there an awful lot of for free
>>fights?
>
> Wow, you really are an idiot. The heart of my argument is that
>Adon leaves Sagat functionless. Sagat cannot play tiger ball games, range
>games, poke games, tick games, or any other kind of games.
I have to interject here...
Take it from me Shaun, your trolling is getting sloppy. I won't even entertain
what you have just wrote above since it obviously collapses by it's own fallicious
premise.
Every Sagat player has a different gameplan. In fact, every player has a different
gameplan for all characters. No two players play alike [ah, one of the beauties of
playing SF, the unpredictability and randomness of competition]. Therefore,
perceptions of this Adon vs Sagat(or any matchup) comes from different points of view.
In particular, I believe this is no gross mismatch. I have played Sagat
religiously throughout the series and have always found him formidable. His uppercut
and tiger knees have always been his bread and butter, and now with SFA3, he can chain
his moves quite easily. I prefer A-Sagat in this incarnation due to the variety of
juggling options[land one fierce uppercut and the fun begins]. Sagat's best poke
which I have always utilized successfully has been his standing forward. This normal
has good range and neutralizes many opponents(including Adon). It also has an option
to feint[quick double tap] if you use it excessively.
Remember, this matchup is arbitrary kiddies.
Shaun Patrick Mcisaac
VX Gene <vxg...@aol.com.NOSPAM> wrote:
>Chocobo wrote:>Try this- in SSF2, have someone use Cammy, and repeatedly stick
>out low
>>forwards. Play as
>>T.Hawk. If you jump, have them do the cannon spike. Otherwise, Cammy should
>>do nothing but low
>>forwards. T.Hawk can not win. There is no window of opportunity.
>
> In theory, no. I know I'm going in over my head, I'm no SF expert, but
>say for instance, the Hawk jumps straight up, and Cammy flinches with a Cannon
>Spike. The Spike misses, and Hawk lets loose. What about Condor Dive vs.
This is why Cammy would have to be played by/like an idiot to
lose. There's no pressure for her to spike early. Why is she fliching?
kayin/ka khiong kwok
I wrote in message ...
<snip>
>Every Sagat player has a different gameplan. In fact, every player has a
different
>gameplan for all characters. No two players play alike [ah, one of the
beauties of
>playing SF, the unpredictability and randomness of competition]. Therefore,
>perceptions of this Adon vs Sagat(or any matchup) comes from different
points of view.
Sorry to butt in here, and this is a tad OT. I know the angry charge beefs
up Sagat's tiger blow (it's just for Aism ain't it?), but do any real Sagat
pro actually bothers with this. This is just my opinion, but it seems a bit
pointless considering that Sagat's are some of the best in the game, so why
bother with the charge? It's a wasted move. Anyway, just wondering if
someone sees something that I don't.
Cheers,
Ka.
=== A fight I liked to see... ===
Morrigan vs Kenneth Starr. It's too close to call. :')