CE Bison cheap?
Stilt Man
they were because he was too strong, or "cheap," as the person put it. I've
had some experience with such gripes, being a Bison player myself, and there
is one interesting co-relation between accusers of "cheapness" and their
playing skill against Bison masters such as myself. No such accuser has ever
managed to beat me in even a single round of Bison v. Bison, not even by using
the "cheapest" tactics they can devise.
__________________________________________________________________________
|The Stilt Man fol...@xanth.cs.orst.edu |
| --Never ask a mortician to go out and bring you back a cold one. |
|__________________________________________________________________________|
|fol...@storm.cs.orst.edu | The opinions expressed do not necessarily |
|fol...@mundania.cs.orst.edu | represent those of Oregon State University |
|fol...@mist.cs.orst.edu | or any of its departments. Thus, the place|
|fol...@prism.cs.orst.edu | has not been the victim of arson recently. |
|_____________________________|____________________________________________|
Do unto others before they do unto you.
Kenichiro Tanaka
user Stilt M...@xanth.CS.ORST. writes:
>I saw the remark recently that people had a sort of ban on Bison in CE where
>they were because he was too strong, or "cheap," as the person put it. I've
>had some experience with such gripes, being a Bison player myself, and there
>is one interesting co-relation between accusers of "cheapness" and their
>playing skill against Bison masters such as myself. No such accuser has ever
>managed to beat me in even a single round of Bison v. Bison, not even by using
>the "cheapest" tactics they can devise.
The thing that always bothered me about Bison was (of course) the
torpedo. It was just too powerful a move on CE and you could beat a lot
of people by just cheesing back and forth. Of course, this is their
fault (read: "my fault") for not being good enough to counter that kind
of crap but I still do think that the move is inherently too powerful.
It's very fast and at certain ranges, it's hard enough just to block.
And when you do block it, it does the same amount of damage as when it
hits. This is just dumbfuck stupid. And on top of all that, after the
(blocked) torpedo, Bison ends up right on top of you with no recovery
necessary--the torpedo-throw tick is really hard for some characters to
counter, I think. Maybe I just suck at counter throwing...
And I've heard the argument, "What about the DP? Isn't that too
powerful?" but I think the difference here is that Bison's torpedo, for
the most part, is an offensive weapon, while the DP is primarily a
defensive weapon. I mean, if fireball's drilled through you and hit you
four or five times even if it was blocked, people would complain.
Ken
JOSEPH BEAUREG HARTLEY
>I saw the remark recently that people had a sort of ban on Bison in CE where
>they were because he was too strong, or "cheap," as the person put it. I've
>had some experience with such gripes, being a Bison player myself, and there
>is one interesting co-relation between accusers of "cheapness" and their
>playing skill against Bison masters such as myself. No such accuser has ever
>managed to beat me in even a single round of Bison v. Bison, not even by using
>the "cheapest" tactics they can devise.
>
>
UIUC, the predominant posters in this area and the self proclaimed
Gods of cheaping.
Seth James Killian
[Bison bragging deleted]
>>
> And it is espically amusing since the post was from someone from
> UIUC, the predominant posters in this area and the self proclaimed
> Gods of cheaping.
Actually, the post was not from one of us. Read it again.
Gods of cheaping? Self-proclaimed? I don't remember ever reading
a UIUC post claiming this... just yours. Thanks:)
Bison was never mastered here simply because he was not
considered one of the particularly powerful characters. We had
quite a few Guiles, and they ate our fledgling Bison's for
breakfast. Besides, choosing Bison was an invitation to be the
guinea pig for any evil tick another player had brewing, simply
because there was no foolproof counter for Bison's strong torp/
throw, and of course, this was used a lot. It _is_ his most
effective technique. Bison players don't like to admit it,
because it makes playing Bison seem to easy, which it is. Ever
had a run of 10+ games with Bison? You just don't get that feeling
of satisfaction or accomplishment. I don't have a thing against
those who mainly play him, but I don't think he is any real fun.
Not a "cheap" complaint, I enjoyed the challenge actually, but I
found him boring. We had our good Bison's, but they only even
played him if they were out of cash, and needed to hang on with the torp/throw...
Seth Killian
Lord Baal
> Bison was never mastered here simply because he was not
> considered one of the particularly powerful characters. We had
> quite a few Guiles, and they ate our fledgling Bison's for
> breakfast. Besides, choosing Bison was an invitation to be the
> guinea pig for any evil tick another player had brewing, simply
> because there was no foolproof counter for Bison's strong torp/
> throw, and of course, this was used a lot. It _is_ his most
> effective technique. Bison players don't like to admit it,
> because it makes playing Bison seem to easy, which it is. Ever
> had a run of 10+ games with Bison? You just don't get that feeling
> of satisfaction or accomplishment. I don't have a thing against
> those who mainly play him, but I don't think he is any real fun.
Hey seth where the hell were you when i was cleaning up with bision ????
Philip John Stroffolino
>I remeber playing Bison for CE when i would start running out of money
>hahahahah :).... He definetely was the best character on that machine
[misc stuff deleted]
---
[misc UIUC flames deleted]
---
Seth Killan writes:
>Bison was never mastered here simply because he was
>not considered one of the particularly powerful characters.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[deleted]
>there was no foolproof counter for Bison's strong torp/
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>throw, and of course, this was used a lot.
whoever has better timing gets the throw -- same situation as after
blocking a razor kick on classic... no stun involved (unless he flames
into the corner)
[deleted]
>Ever had a run of 10+ games with Bison?
^^^^^^^^^
[deleted]
>Not a "cheap" complaint, I enjoyed the challenge actually,
^^^^^^^^^
[deleted]
sounds pretty powerful to me :)
Stilt Man
>On 19-Apr-93 in CE Bison cheap?
>user Stilt M...@xanth.CS.ORST. writes:
>
>>I saw the remark recently that people had a sort of ban on Bison in CE where
>>they were because he was too strong, or "cheap," as the person put it. I've
>>had some experience with such gripes, being a Bison player myself, and there
>>is one interesting co-relation between accusers of "cheapness" and their
>>playing skill against Bison masters such as myself. No such accuser has ever
>>managed to beat me in even a single round of Bison v. Bison, not even by using
>>the "cheapest" tactics they can devise.
>
>The thing that always bothered me about Bison was (of course) the
>torpedo. It was just too powerful a move on CE and you could beat a lot
>of people by just cheesing back and forth. Of course, this is their
>fault (read: "my fault") for not being good enough to counter that kind
>of crap but I still do think that the move is inherently too powerful.
>It's very fast and at certain ranges, it's hard enough just to block.
>And when you do block it, it does the same amount of damage as when it
>hits. This is just dumbfuck stupid. And on top of all that, after the
>(blocked) torpedo, Bison ends up right on top of you with no recovery
>necessary--the torpedo-throw tick is really hard for some characters to
>counter, I think. Maybe I just suck at counter throwing...
It can be done. Ken, Ryu, Zangief, and Vega all can do wonders against this
if the people playing them know how to counter throw.
>
>And I've heard the argument, "What about the DP? Isn't that too
>powerful?" but I think the difference here is that Bison's torpedo, for
>the most part, is an offensive weapon, while the DP is primarily a
>defensive weapon. I mean, if fireball's drilled through you and hit you
>four or five times even if it was blocked, people would complain.
>
However, if he torpedoed over and over and you fireballed over and over,
who would be encountering Excedrin headache 357? There are so many ways
to counter Bison's torpedo with Ken/Ryu (kick on the front part of the
torpedo, FB, DP) that whenever a player of either of these characters griped
that Bison was cheap, I just laugh. The torpedo counters for each character:
Ken/Ryu: FB, NK, DP, HK
Guile: SB, FK
Chun Li: aerial forward
Vega: ditto
Honda: veg-o-matic, strong slap
Sagat: FB, TU
Blanka: aerial forward or roundhouse
Zangief: aerial short, squat jab
Dhalsim: aerial spinning kick, FB, Yoga flame
Balrog: no effective counter (just like against everyone else)
Bison: nothing that won't just trade damage
Bison himself is the only character worth his salt that doesn't have an
effective counter against the torpedo. Yet, when people play Bison vs.
Bison with me, torpedoing all they please, what happens? How many torps
do I use to destroy them? Not that many; the first one to knock him down,
then just keep on the attack and I never see the thing again. Bison's got
the least defense against his own move, and yet I still may claim that no
one who's tried it extensively has ever beaten me in a single round.
>
>Ken
Joel A. Deangelo
Lord Vader
:Hey guys I am God speaking. To any poeple out there who ma by happenstace come by Auburn AL. I thought you might like to step in for a butt whippin'. I really need somebody to play that is anygood. Everyone around here won't play me anymore. It really sux. I have even considered the worst. I have considered quiting SF.
Hey, why don't you go over to WVU and play MMSF? I'm sure that he'd love
to match up with you... From what he says, there are plenty of good
players over there that would like to eat you for breakfast, then save
the rest of the guys on the Net for lunch AND dinner...
Caine Schneider
Seth James Killian
>>there was no foolproof counter for Bison's strong torp/
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>throw, and of course, this was used a lot.
>whoever has better timing gets the throw -- same situation as after
>blocking a razor kick on classic... no stun involved (unless he flames
>into the corner)
True, in a sense, but have you seen the man who could counter
this even 75%? I doubt it. Mainly because it all depends upon the
range that the strong torp starts from, and his "penetration" :)
The timing changes for each one and there is a series of rapid blocked
hits in different positions on your body. I could always time it to
hit the button right when Bison came out of the torp, but I could never
predict when the torp would hit with the last blocked hit, which meant
I was guessing. The blocked hits of the torp were _not_ always the
same everytime, so you had to guess, whereas Bison just hits the button
as he lands because he is obviously not stunned from block. If you
happened to have recovered, your button press would not be wasted, and
you win the throw, but if you hit it while in block stun, you lose your
chance, and are thrown. Any Bison who denies this is his most effective
technique is simply wrong. It is almost the perfect tick.
>[deleted]
>>Ever had a run of 10+ games with Bison?
> ^^^^^^^^^
Yeah, and let me tell you, torping back and forth with throws
is not fun for me. A lot of people have real trouble countering this,
so it works. And it is repeatable ad infinitum, assuming you are not
playing Ryu/Ken, who had a chance to DP from the middle of the flame.
These runs were also against scrubs, I must admit. I would sneak a
Bison play or two in when the Guile boys were away.
>[deleted]
>>Not a "cheap" complaint, I enjoyed the challenge actually,
> ^^^^^^^^^
>[deleted]
It was a challenge to keep constantly on the offensive, so as
not to allow the chance to be torpedo'd. I guess this qualifies as
powerful. Does an average Z ticking a bunch of no throw scrubs to
death count too? Maybe. The torp throw combo was too nasty and
Capcom realized it. This is why I believe they have reduced the
number of times all his torpedo's hit when blocked. It has become
a lot easier to counter, with less block stuns to account for.
>sounds pretty powerful to me :)
Glad that he won for you where you played. He was never too
hot here, and you all seem to assume that this is equatable with
saying all our Bison's sucked. Wrong. Lord Baal played a really
evil Bison, but still got stuffed by the Guile masters, as well as
Z, and the occasional Ryu (Chun Li as well). You think he kicks ass?
What has he lost from CE?
1) No delay scissor kicking. A big tactical drawback for pressing
the attack, but not a severe loss except vs. Ken/Ryu and Zangief.
Mostly I guess it is the loss of the 7 hitter.
2) Super damaging blocked torp. Now you must actually _hit_
your opponent to hurt em bad (although it still takes off a fair amount) The threat of the strong torp throw is also greatly lessened, although
all you master Bisons claim that this was never one of your staples...
3) The ability to jump away cleanly after fierce torpedo'ing into
the corner. Just stops Bisons from being silly with the torp, like they
were allowed in CE. No disadvantage if you weren't stupid to begin with.
He has gained increased damage from virtually all of his moves,
excepting perhaps his throw. He has no new techniques. Why did Capcom
take away what they did? Probably because with that scissor kick,
Bison could literally _kill_ Dhalsim in the corner with a simple little
trap, and the strong torp throw was just too difficult to counter very
well, due to the excessive number of times it hit. Not at all
unreasonable. I personally think they should have made the torp just
like it was in Classic. Hits once. It would be better for Bison too,
nowadays. I also think they should have reduced charge time on the
scissor kick to make up for the delay. It could be Bisons coolest adn
best move, but it takes sooo long to charge.
But if those who whine about Bison's great weakness on HF will
standby the fact that the torpedo was not the main strength of their
game, then all he has lost is a slight delay on one move. He has better damage too.
BTW, why hasn't anyone responded to my "To all you Bison studs" post, if he is so great? :)
Seth Killian
Stilt Man
>Philip John Stroffolino <ps...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>>>there was no foolproof counter for Bison's strong torp/
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>throw, and of course, this was used a lot.
>
>>whoever has better timing gets the throw -- same situation as after
>>blocking a razor kick on classic... no stun involved (unless he flames
>>into the corner)
>
> True, in a sense, but have you seen the man who could counter
> this even 75%? I doubt it. Mainly because it all depends upon the
> range that the strong torp starts from, and his "penetration" :)
> The timing changes for each one and there is a series of rapid blocked
> hits in different positions on your body. I could always time it to
> hit the button right when Bison came out of the torp, but I could never
> predict when the torp would hit with the last blocked hit, which meant
> I was guessing. The blocked hits of the torp were _not_ always the
> same everytime, so you had to guess, whereas Bison just hits the button
> as he lands because he is obviously not stunned from block. If you
> happened to have recovered, your button press would not be wasted, and
> you win the throw, but if you hit it while in block stun, you lose your
> chance, and are thrown. Any Bison who denies this is his most effective
> technique is simply wrong. It is almost the perfect tick.
>
Okay, now where is Bison's foolproof (or even foolhardy) counter for . . .
1) Ken/Ryu low short tick?
2) FB trap close-range in the corner?
3) SB/FK trap by Guile in the corner?
4) Zangief aerial short/low roundhouse/SPD tick?
I'll have more sympathy for the gripers about the strong torp tick when I see
these done away with in future versions. Until then, I continue to laugh. The
latter three are impossible to escape if done well, and the first one is only
possible to escape if you can manage to throw them the instant you get up
(Ken/Ryu's throw priorities are high enough that Bison can't counterthrow out
of this).
>>[deleted]
>
>>>Ever had a run of 10+ games with Bison?
>> ^^^^^^^^^
> Yeah, and let me tell you, torping back and forth with throws
> is not fun for me. A lot of people have real trouble countering this,
> so it works. And it is repeatable ad infinitum, assuming you are not
> playing Ryu/Ken, who had a chance to DP from the middle of the flame.
> These runs were also against scrubs, I must admit. I would sneak a
> Bison play or two in when the Guile boys were away.
>
And what makes you think torping back and forth is what the master Bison
players do? That's what the people who gripe to me that Bison's cheap do.
And I repeat, not a single one of them has ever beaten me in a single round.
Something of a loophole in the reasoning, methinks.
>>[deleted]
>
>>>Not a "cheap" complaint, I enjoyed the challenge actually,
>> ^^^^^^^^^
>>[deleted]
>
> It was a challenge to keep constantly on the offensive, so as
> not to allow the chance to be torpedo'd. I guess this qualifies as
> powerful. Does an average Z ticking a bunch of no throw scrubs to
> death count too? Maybe. The torp throw combo was too nasty and
> Capcom realized it. This is why I believe they have reduced the
> number of times all his torpedo's hit when blocked. It has become
> a lot easier to counter, with less block stuns to account for.
>
Oh really? I know a Zangief player here who could counter out of that *every*
time. A good counter-thrower with high throw priority can get out of this
ever last cotton-picking time. Not so with Zangief's ticks, or a FB/DP or
SB/FK trap in the corner.
>>sounds pretty powerful to me :)
>
> Glad that he won for you where you played. He was never too
> hot here, and you all seem to assume that this is equatable with
> saying all our Bison's sucked. Wrong. Lord Baal played a really
> evil Bison, but still got stuffed by the Guile masters, as well as
> Z, and the occasional Ryu (Chun Li as well). You think he kicks ass?
> What has he lost from CE?
>
> 1) No delay scissor kicking. A big tactical drawback for pressing
> the attack, but not a severe loss except vs. Ken/Ryu and Zangief.
> Mostly I guess it is the loss of the 7 hitter.
I never relied on this anyway.
> 2) Super damaging blocked torp. Now you must actually _hit_
> your opponent to hurt em bad (although it still takes off a fair amount) The threat of the strong torp throw is also greatly lessened, although
> all you master Bisons claim that this was never one of your staples...
Oh really? The times it hit were sometimes so puny that this was no real
threat.
> 3) The ability to jump away cleanly after fierce torpedo'ing into
> the corner. Just stops Bisons from being silly with the torp, like they
> were allowed in CE. No disadvantage if you weren't stupid to begin with.
>
Funny thing. They never got away with this against me.
> He has gained increased damage from virtually all of his moves,
> excepting perhaps his throw. He has no new techniques. Why did Capcom
Still not to the point that they've burgeoned Ken and Ryu's damages for the
same moves. One of Ryu's kicks does as much damage as one of Bison's throws.
> But if those who whine about Bison's great weakness on HF will
> standby the fact that the torpedo was not the main strength of their
> game, then all he has lost is a slight delay on one move. He has better damage too.
Everything has been reduced in priority as well. It's extremely easy to knock
Bison out of either a torpedo or scissors (to a lesser extent), the head stomp
was always easy to kick out of, he didn't before and still doesn't have any
aerial defense when he's standing on the ground. The torpedo-throw tick might
have been hard for some to counter, but like I said, I've seen people counter
it and will see it again. Instant DP is a sovereign remedy for this, and
throwing Bison out of it can be done. Either remedy only has to be done once.
Then traps of the opposition can be just as easily done. The opposing traps
are still there. They never did give Bison a counter for those. Again, I
stand by the fact that a Bison player who torpedoes against a master player
of anyone besides Balrog will be unmercifully destroyed. For that matter,
perhaps Bison's torp tick was tough, but it was his *only* tick. Now, the
opposition can tick him all they want without fear of reprisal in kind. And
as far as the torpedo block damage goes, that sounds quite ridiculous in light
of Ken/Ryu's HK block damage. Either one is equally easy to avoid: jump over
a torpedo, duck under a HK. As often as not, any Ken or Ryu character who
tries HK on me gets tossed for their presumption.
All in all, Bison is somewhat fun to play in HF, because he has to rely
on mental games to win now. However, get an opponent who doesn't fall for
these, and he's meat for the eating. In CE, he was tough enough that he could
counter any cheap attacks in kind if he wanted to, while still being open to use
the same mental games for the entertainment. Now, he can't. And what
cheap attack he did have were as simple as a counter throw at the right time
to remedy. Most of his opponents have and had better throw priorities than
he does, so this isn't too hard to do.
> BTW, why hasn't anyone responded to my "To all you Bison studs" post, if he is so great? :)
>
Consider this my response.
Crying Freeman
him. However, it was never really satisfying to win with Bison. For some
reason, on CE, Seth had a soft spot against Bison for a while, and I was
actually more effective against his Ryu playing Bison than Guile, but I
digress.
Anyways, my best run as Bison was this one time I won ~20 straight against
Caine, Astralwolf, and another guy... They were mainly playing Sagat at the
time. Basically, I would just use the scissor kick alot to go over the low
tigers and if they ever missed a tiger uppercut, I would do the scissor kick,
forward, forward pseudo combo, mixing in throws every so often, and I
didn't lose a single match. Somehow, winning using this combo just
wasn't as satisfying as winning using Guile combos.
I admit that Bison vs. Sagat was a pretty heavy mismatch in Bison's favor,
but my point is just that for me, winning with Bison just wasn't very
satisfying. Hey, maybe some people get kicks out of winning with him.
Anyways.
--
Che-Yuan Wang
cw2...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
cyw...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Lord Baal
Yeah you and mmsf can have fun beating on each other...hmmm since your god
i guess you will be able to beat mmsf pretty easily since he is only a master
haahahahahahahahah
Lord Baal...
>Caine Schneider
ANDERSON S
little turds who flame backwards and forwards.. I have seen 1 worthwhile
Bison in about 3 years of playing.. I think the only thing to do therefore
is to trash there little hides and teach them to play a 'real' character :)
The stupid thing is half of them can't even block a jumping roundhouse let
alone a backkick, and yet they hold the machine against there other dweeby
friends, who then rant and rave when you quadruple there silly arses of the
machine..
Oh well just my gripe for the day..
Paul Kim
the only people that I can kill by flaming back and forth are total
scrubs who don't know how to play the game. There are so many ways to
counter the torpedo that flaming back and forth is a quick way to get
yourself killed. A lot of the fighters can just jab constantly and
that will stop the torpedo. Ryu, Ken or Sagat can dragon punch. Guile
can flash kick or sonic boom. When I play against someone who can
dragon punch consistently or who has good timing, it is impossible to
even try to flame back and forth. Even if I do torpedo, the opponent
almost always blocks it and sometimes throws me the moment it is safe.
The only time a torpedo is safe is when the opponent jumps into the
air, he is dizzy, or in the middle of an attack flurry.
Against the best Ryu's here, once I get into a fireball trap I'm dead.
It is hard to get on the offensive because of Bison's long air time and
Ryu's fireball.
Against guile, the flash kick stops any flame attempt that isn't well
timed or well placed.
In all of my fights, I scissor kick at least five times more than I
flame. It is a lot quicker and in the middle of a combo, it is really
easy to dizzy someone.
Stop complaining about the torpedo. Spend your time learning how to
dragon punch or how to time your kicks or punches.
-------
Paul Kim
JOSEPH BEAUREG HARTLEY
>In general, the only people who play Bison on CE machines around here are
>little turds who flame backwards and forwards.. I have seen 1 worthwhile
>Bison in about 3 years of playing.. I think the only thing to do therefore
>is to trash there little hides and teach them to play a 'real' character :)
>
came out early last year.
Bladerunner
Why must there always be scrubs that complain about characters being "too
powerful"?
There are any number of ways to beat all of Bison's moves w. either specials
or normal attacks. Quit whining.
Mao Tse-tung
>I told you so...
>
>Why must there always be scrubs that complain about characters being "too
>powerful"?
Why do people keep complaing that tick and throwing is cheap??? Because
they don't know how to counter. People complains about "powerful characters"
because they are usually skilled in one or two characters and don't know a
way of fighting certain characters which has advantage over theirs.
robi...@woods.ulowell.edu
I just love getting on a machine with these little 'turds'. Just
pop in your money pick Zangief and hit all three punch buttons. They usually
just torp right into and *zot* *look of disbelief* 'Hey!' and then dopey them
they try it again, thats when I go in with a short knee and SPD them to all
hell. Most fun you can have for a quarter.
Brandon