balrog vs. ryu/ken
peg...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
that I have many different strategies depending upon the player controlling
the character. My strategy for beating the computer balrog is totally
different than my strategy for beating a human balrog (mostly because a human
is a lot smarter). I would need to actually play you to see what your style
is. Anyway, just for laughs I'll tell you the fool proof way I use to beat
a computer controlled balrog. It's simple.
All I do is keep him at a distance. I throw a fireball, if he jumps over it,
I can footsweep him as he lands or DP him in the air because of his hangtime.
If he blocks the fireball, no big deal. With ryu I can have another fierce
fireball on top of him almost immediately because of the speed of his FB's.
It's true that the computer doesn't TAP through FB's very often (almost
never), but if he did, I could either FB or DP at the appropriate time and
make him block, take damage, or try and TAP through again. Either that or I
could simply jump up and HK to the other side of the screen to get out of his
way. Of course, this is the boring way to play, and it really isn't any fun
at all. However, if I'm in danger, I could use this to get out of a tight
spot. The main thing to beating a human balrog player (or any player) is to
vary my attack. Then I'm less predictable.
So, overall, I'd say that unless I knew your style, I wouldn't be able to give
you a definite answer on a strategy because you may play completely different
than other Balrog players that I've played.
Whew! well, anyway, try not to flame me too much :)
Pat (PEG1485)
Scott Thomas Fisher
him. Yeah so where is the strategy there? You could say the same for
any other character. Dhalsim: just keep Balrog at a distance
Guile: just keep Balrog at a distance
Sagat: just keep Balrog at a distance
And so on
Of course if I just stay at the opposite side of the screen you'll toast me
since I have no projectile attack (hmmm maybe in sf3). But that isn't how
Balrog is played. He doesn'y meekly accept punishment. He dishes out
incredible amounts of hurt. Imean he's always in your face with every fist
flying, no chance for escape, no chance for survival. Sure I'll take some
hits, but then I'm willing to trade hits any day. After all that's what
makes a good boxer: take lots of punishment and then WHAM the match is yours.
|> It's true that the computer doesn't TAP through FB's very often (almost
|> never), but if he did, I could either FB or DP at the appropriate time and
|> make him block, take damage, or try and TAP through again. Either that or I
|> could simply jump up and HK to the other side of the screen to get out of his
|> way.
One question here. What is going to stop me from crouch fiercing (?) you out
of your HK. I'll always hit and then you're domn for the count and I have
a whole range of combos to stun or just punish. Either way HK'ing over
Balrog is a mistake.
Yes, you would need to "know my style" to tell me how to defend it, but can
you say with confidence that no matter what I do, you can come out the
winner.
"It's all in the timing. Ryu/Ken is just a weaker character than
Balrog. That's how the game is made." (sound kind of familiar?)
Theodore Leonard Tsai
>|> All I do is keep him at a distance.
>
>OHHHHHH, so as long as scary mister Balrog doesn't come close you can beat
> him. Yeah so where is the strategy there? You could say the same for
> any other character. Dhalsim: just keep Balrog at a distance
[snip]
>|> It's true that the computer doesn't TAP through FB's very often (almost
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> never), but if he did, I could either FB or DP at the appropriate time and
>|> make him block, take damage, or try and TAP through again. Either that or I
>|> could simply jump up and HK to the other side of the screen to get out of his
>|> way.
>
>One question here. What is going to stop me from crouch fiercing (?) you out
> of your HK. I'll always hit and then you're domn for the count and I have
>
[snip]
The original poster said that this was his strategy against the computer
Balrog and not humans.
jeffrey d. lake
he can TAP through it. He doesn't have to worry about exchanging damage
with hurricane kicks either. Fireball/Footsweeps are easily remedied
because I can either TAP through and connect or jump over in which case
out of your footsweep range not to mention MY roundhouse has a longer range.
His Charged punched are hard to react to, easily faked and before you know it
yer stunned. You can't jump at me cuz I'll crouching fierce ya. Mix it up
all you want, you still have to block and one mistake, you're stunned. I'm
sure Ken/Ryu masters are pretty much similar all over the country and I'm sure
you're as good as the most I play, but I don't have any problem with them and
I doubt I would have any problem you. No Seth/MMSF challenge here, your
strategy just hasn't convinced me you would be any different cuz I've seen 'em
all. Just trying to defend all closet Balrogs out there. Ken/Ryu are over-
rated. They can be beaten.
peg...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
definitely be able to give you a hard fight. In fact, I think I probably
would win because you don't know my timing skills. That last statement
about Ken/ryu being weaker is bullshit because if you tried to combo me when
I fell, I would have a DP in your face because it would have priority as I
was getting up. And how the hell is your uppercut going to reach me when
I'm doing a HK all the way at the top of the screen?
Pat
jeffrey d. lake
would still crouching fierce ya. It hits quite high. When I said jumping
in when you're down I meant when you were stunned. But now that you mention
it, are you willing to take the chance of being stunned just to hit me
with a single DP? Lots of others do and lots of others keep feedin' the
quarters. I'll take the chance you miss the DP because more often than not
you'll miss.
Scott Thomas Fisher
then execute a HK? I think that we may be talking about different machines.
As far as I know only the super, illeagle chip allowed these kinds of moves.
Such as say my TAP in mid-jump. We are talking about HF right?
John Carlos White
*grin*
I never really wanted to comment on arguments like this, but I have to ask
about the above comment. Do you really jump in on fallen ryu/ken with
impunity where you play? You said something about ryu/ken being played the
same way all over, but if you jump in on a fallen ryu/ken here, and don't
time it right, you -will- get DP'd. I don't know what the hell it was
that you were trying to say, but if that's your strategy, I really don't
agree with it.
John White
jeffrey d. lake
just before I get into Roundhouse sweep range, I'll jump at them. A lot of
times, they'll sweep, be vulnerable and take two of my Roundhouses. Balrog
has a short, but brief jump period. What I'm basically trying to say out of
this whole discussion is that it is much harder to keep Balrog at a
distance and he has an easier time against all the characters in HF. If
played aggressively, he can beat any character. Like someone else said,
I'll gladly trade damage, because Balrog can take it. He has high priority
on his headbutt, and has good range at interupting fireballs.
Philip John Stroffolino
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From: john...@cco.caltech.edu (John Carlos White)
Subject: Re: balrog vs. ryu/ken
Date: 15 Mar 1993 07:55:09 GMT
jl...@engin.umich.edu (jeffrey d. lake) writes:
>> How would I reach you at the top of the screen in a HK? Why, I
>>would still crouching fierce ya. It hits quite high. When I said jumping
>>in when you're down I meant when you were stunned. But now that you
>>mention it, are you willing to take the chance of being stunned just
to hit me
>>with a single DP? Lots of others do and lots of others keep feedin' the
>>quarters. I'll take the chance you miss the DP because more often than not
>>you'll miss.
John White @cco.ca writes:
>*grin*
>I never really wanted to comment on arguments like this, but I have to ask
>about the above comment. Do you really jump in on fallen ryu/ken with
>impunity where you play? You said something about ryu/ken being played the
>same way all over, but if you jump in on a fallen ryu/ken here, and don't
>time it right, you -will- get DP'd. I don't know what the hell it was
>that you were trying to say, but if that's your strategy, I really don't
>agree with it.
Balrog (or any character with short/quick jumps) can fake out a DP happy
Ryu/Ken by jumping in a bit early, so that they land (able to block)
just before Ryu/Ken starts his DP... This CAN'T be done (as far as I
know) after a "sweep" (the jumping-in character will always still be in
the air as Ryu/Ken gets up), but CAN be done after knocking Ryu/Ken out
of the air - and most Ryu Ken players will eventually be forced to go to
the air against a well played unpredictably-aggressive HF Balrog...
But yeah, it is rarely if ever a good idea to jump in on a Ken/Ryu
player AS they are getting up...
Now if the Ken/Ryu player is standing, and you (Balrog) think there is a
reasonable chance they are going to lob a fireball, Balrog does stand to
make out in the long run by risking a DP with a combo attempt...
- Phil
Soobum Cho
What hole have you been living in? :)
In HF Ken and Ryu can HK in mid-air....always has been that way.
-Soobum
sc...@icaen.uiowa.edu
peg...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
peg...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
peg...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
and you also underestimate me. And even if you TAP through one FB, I can
have another on top of you almost as soon as the other hits, so you wouldn't
be able to do two or three TAP in a row to get up to me. I still think I
could win. Balrog really doesn't impress me that much. He's got lots of
power, and he IS a good if you can use him (like you can I would imagine),
but anybody knows that a master Ryu/Ken player can beat a master Balrog
player. I'm not a master, but I'm damn close...and I can almost guarantee
that you're not a master either.
Brian Odom
No, we're not! We are talking about HF. Now, go out and try it!!
Only the HK can be done in mid-air, not fireballs. Also, Chun Li's SBK can
be done mid-air, too, but it's a lot harder to do.
Eu-Ming Lee
>I never really wanted to comment on arguments like this, but I have to ask
>about the above comment. Do you really jump in on fallen ryu/ken with
>impunity where you play? You said something about ryu/ken being played the
>same way all over, but if you jump in on a fallen ryu/ken here, and don't
>time it right, you -will- get DP'd. I don't know what the hell it was
>that you were trying to say, but if that's your strategy, I really don't
>agree with it.
Even if you time it right, you WILL get DP-ed. If you don't, you're not
playing a real Ken/Ryu player. If you DON'T time it right, you WILL get
thrown.
Balrog should never jump in on Ken/Ryu as they're getting up. It's easy
to stand back and do random rushing straight punches (as opposed to
queer ones?). Don't do those straight punches right into their DP.
Sometimes, do them a little too late so that you block the DP as it
comes up and then smack 'em with a rushing uppercut (queer punch?)
as they're coming down. Or if they're in the habit of blocking, rush
too early and get them into a headbutt right away. Balrog has plenty
of evilness, but most of it comes from his ground attacks, so.....
STAY ON THE GROUND!
>John White
--
Eu-Ming Lee (aka CyberGeek) eum...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
"Error - Keyboard not detected. Press F1 to continue."
- From the wisdom of DOS 5.0
Seth James Killian
>It's true that the computer doesn't TAP through FB's very often (almost
>never), but if he did, I could either FB or DP at the appropriate time and
>make him block, take damage, or try and TAP through again. Either that or I
>could simply jump up and HK to the other side of the screen to get out of his
>way. Of course, this is the boring way to play, and it really isn't any fu
I think that you have oversimplified the problem pretty badly
here. It sounds to me like you have not actually played a good Balrog
but believe you can imagine what one would do, and have likewise thought up counters to this imaginary opponent. Simply put, you cannot FB Balrog to death like you could in CE. The TAP through the FB has really eliminated this as an effective stopper. Granted, it still works to an
extent. For example, if Balrog chooses to jump forwards over almost any FB, you can footsweep him before he lands. You can also be moderately
successful by varying your FB speed, and trying to throw off his timing.
Unfortunately, both of these strategems require a mistake by your opponent, not a good move by you. Back to the TAP question: If Balrog
TAPs from the other side of the screen, you cannot touch him. Your
second FB will not arrive in time to force him back or even make him
block unless the first was a jab. Even then you must be careful because he can occasionally TAP again. From certain medium ranges, TAPing
through a FB will get him DP'd or punched or whatever. From these same
ranges however, Balrog can jump in and hit you from the air. There
exists only a very small area from which Balrog is totally neutralized
by a FB, and I am constantly jockying for this position against a good
Balrog player. Short range is relatively meaningless, as there is no
good reason to throw a FB from this range, and Balrog can be effective
from a little over a quarter of the screen away. This is Balrog's
"zone of doom" for Ken/Ryu players. Especially bad when stuck in the
corner. I have never seen a Ken/Ryu fast enough to DP in reaction to
a charging straight punch from the optimal range of just outside Ryu's
footsweep range. You cannot HK out of this postition, because Balrog
can hit you from the ground at whatever height you may be at. Jumping
is equally foolish for any number of reasons. Basically, you are
forced into trying to guess when Balrog is going to charge. Very little of anything that you can do. I find myself forced to resort to shameless and constant ticking to supress the up and coming Balrog's who like to hassle my Ryu. Not an easy fight, and Balrog, if played correctly, definitely has the advantage IMO. If you still disagree, then start offering specific situations. The floor is open...
Seth Killian
n
jeffrey d. lake
I have to grant it to you, Seth. I couldn`t have said it better
myself. Sure, I get dragon punched when I jump in, but lots of times
people think I'm in sweep range and attempt to sweep me, thereby becoming
vulnerable to a double Roundhouse. A lot of times they miss the DP and
get stunned. A lot of times they just don`t attempt the DP because of
post-traumatic experiences from previous attempts. All I know is I tried
the 3-fist method and my fingers we sore for a week. "Palming it is better.
Jeff Lake
Scott Thomas Fisher
rated a "master" means you make fewer mistakes than other people and that
you can pull of "your" characters moves fairly easily. But again, this
gets back to the same point. If you have a perfect match, you will win.
If I have a perfect match, I will win. But for the most part, neither
of us will have a "perfect" match. In that case Balrog has a better
chance at winning, because on HF his whole manner of play is be offensive
and take advantage of the other players _mistakes_.
In your post you also state that even if I TAP through your FB you can have
another one waiting for me. Well, at the start of each match, I am well
within TAP range, and plan on staying there. So if you throw a FB, I TAP
and hit you (or maybe your blocked form) there isn't a chance for you to
get of another FB. Yes if I am way across the screen, multiple TAP's are
near impossible. So I can jump them instead. I don't have to worry about
DP because I'm to far away (well maybe a fierce Ken DP might reach).
Oh yeah, you said that Ken/Ryu's kick has higher priority than Balrog's
uppercut. What? I haven't ever had a problem knocking _anyone_ out of
the air aith a good strong.
Robert Weeks (Mr) O'Callahan
>Only the HK can be done in mid-air, not fireballs. Also, Chun Li's SBK can
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>be done mid-air, too, but it's a lot harder to do.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
HOW? HOW? HOW? *NOT* using the normal move, that's for sure.
Rob.
"Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone
laid across the entrance. 'Take away the stone', he said. 'But Lord', said
Martha, the sister of the dead man, 'by this time there is a bad odour, for he
has been there four days.'" - John 11:38 (NIV)
peg...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
whether or not to do a DP or a footsweep, depending upon where Balrog is.
It's really not all that difficult to predict where Balrog (or anybody)
will land in relation to Ryu/Ken.
peg...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Say, if I keep control of the match then Balrog isn't very effective right?
Man, my first post saying "Balrog sucks" was intended to be a joke :)
I never dreamed I'd get this many people going. However, on HF all the
characters were altered in some way to create a better balance. In CE, Ryu
could take Balrog pretty easily. Even with the balance, I don't think the
programmers at Capcom altered Balrog to the point where he had as sizeable
an advantage over Ryu as you say. If anything, I'd say that the balance has
created a situation that would allow for a better match, but I think that
Capcom still made the game with the intention of keeping Ryu/Ken as the
characters with a slight advantage. I hope that came out the way I had it
in my mind. :)
Pat
Eu-Ming Lee
>you're way wrong. I can kick your uppercut if I jump in with my roundhouse,
>and you also underestimate me. And even if you TAP through one FB, I can
>have another on top of you almost as soon as the other hits, so you wouldn't
>be able to do two or three TAP in a row to get up to me.
Sure you can. Any decent Balrog player should be able to do TAPs back
to back. You cannot trap Balrog with fireballs on HF.
>I still think I
>could win. Balrog really doesn't impress me that much. He's got lots of
>power, and he IS a good if you can use him (like you can I would imagine),
>but anybody knows that a master Ryu/Ken player can beat a master Balrog
>player. I'm not a master, but I'm damn close...and I can almost guarantee
>that you're not a master either.
When I visited UIUC, I wiped the Ryu/Ken players faces into the ground
using Balrog. They had to switch to other characters to beat me.
Wai Ng
It would depend on your location and position of your Ryu or Ken <PERIOD>.
If Balrog is close you wouldn't have a chance getting your fireball
out. Hey, you might block then fireball, but Balrog would jump in and combo.
I'm not a master, not even close to it. But, Balrog is a good character to
use, and is good against Ken or Ryu. I'm mainly a Ryu Player and I have
seen master not even glancing, not even think about Ryu or Ken going against
a certain master Balrog player up here. And believe me, there ARE good Ken
Ryu players.
I'm not a master not am I close, But *I* k
Wai Ng
>Oh yeah, you said that Ken/Ryu's kick has higher priority than Balrog's
> uppercut. What? I haven't ever had a problem knocking _anyone_ out of
> the air aith a good strong.
Well, that depends... If Balrog will land on you or in close range, Balrog
gets priority then Ken or Ryu. But if Ken or Ryu is farther away, like
Balrog is going to jump in but can't reach you with a punch coming down.
Ken or Ryu gets the hit with a roundhouse. (Notice that Balrog swings
down?)
Wai Ng
Alex Werner
Say, each character has 5 points which you can distribute among speed, pwer,
and defense. So playing Ryu with 3 spee, 2 power and 0 defense would
be radically different than playing Ryu with 0 speed 3 power and 2 defense.
And also, if you put all 5 points into defense you owuld get a special
bonus in that area.... for instance, all 5 in defense would allow you to
block special moves and lose nothing _and_ never get stunned. All 5 in
power would allow you to always stun with a 2-hit combo. And all 5 in speed
would do something else, I dunno what. But of course, that would be atthe
cost of having lower scores in other areas.
Also, all the SF3 machines should be made with optical swith joysticks!
peg...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
I can kick his UC (not the charging one) if I hit it in the right spot. It
would be hard to do during a fight, but I can kick it or exchange damage.