Bison: CE vs. HF
BLADERUNNER
Seriously. He is such a wus in HF.
in CE, he had these awesome pseudo combos (pseudo combos are the ones that
catch the other guy REAL bad if they aren't looking): My favorite: double
kick/low forward/standing forward/double kick. Charging is started as soon
as your first double kick is in flight, and the flight itself, plus the two
forwards, will give you enough charge time for another double kick. This
can be repeated, and few people could counter it. Every character could,
though, it's the plaers who are pathetic.
Also, a true combo: when the opponent is down for the dizzy, slide into him
before he gets up so you'll be right next to him, and when he does get up,
throw two standing jabs to buffer a Roundhouse double you've been charging
since the beginning of your slide. It's hard to time two buffers, since
you have to leave a time lag between the jab button hits and leave NO time
lag between the second jab and the double kick(like tap, taptap). Does pretty
good damage.
And all this works best when mixed up with a Hellfire Torp or two whenever they
try to jab you out of your double kick. Usually by the third rotation of
the above-mentioned pseudo-combo.
In HF, NOTHING works. Not only did they slow down his double kick by a lot,
so that there's more time to get your jab defense up, and lets your opponent
see it soming instead of having to anticipate you, they gave him less distance
on it, as well as a f*cking lag time of vulnerability after it's done. Like
his slide. It's not long, but characters who have high priority throws like
Zangief, Ryu, and Dhalsim can throw his merry ass out of the court easily
after they block (or sometimes if they DIDN'T block) his double-kicks.
Then there's the fact that his Hellfire torpedo only hits three or (very
rarely) four times if the opponents block. I am not one to go back and
forth on the screen with it to whittle opponents, since that's not only
BORING but suicidal against any decent player, but chipping away at the
the other guy once or twice is no more cheating than what Honda and Chun-Li
players do all the time. Besides, the problem lay in the fact that since
it only hits three times, the opponent is often left within throw range and
can toss you as you get out of the Torp.
Upside? Well, the block is no longer automatic. i.e. if they block the
first of the three hits they CAN be hit by subsequent hits. I surprised
a few old-hands with this, since they followed CE instincts and started to
DP before my Torp actually ended.
His head stomp also has a reduced priority. And they call him the "King
of Destruction". Sheesh! "King of Delusions" is more like it. i
Stilt Man
>Anyone still play Bison?
>
Mostly because I'm used to his moves more than any other character, so I stay
with him and learn what he can do better.
>Seriously. He is such a wus in HF.
>
Quite. His jab torp is quite a bit better (not as easy to counter as the
bigger ones, while in CE they were the same), but his strong torpedo is asking
to get tossed or comboed once you get out in HF, while in CE you could sometimes
throw him first. However, his moves are more vulnerable, his priorities are
just about rock-bottom against everyone (torp won't stop the flying sumo sit
from Honda or the in-the-air ball, though the level ones still get stopped),
and even if you do hit, one of Ryu's kicks does as much damage as one of Bison's
throws. I suspect Capcom listened a little too closely to a bunch of stoopid
Ken and Ryu players who griped about Bison players who torpedoed too much.
Whenever I hear a Ken or Ryu player gripe about Bison's torp, I just laugh.
Any Bison player who's any good knows that torping repeatedly is suicidal
against any Ken or Ryu worth his salt (with fireballs, jump kicks, and the
"sovereign remedy" DP all capable of knocking him out of it even in CE), and
if one of said Ken or Ryu players is stupid enough to jump mindlessly, a good
Bison player will find it child's play to time the torpedo to knock the fool
out of the air. When they gripe, they seem to forget that any Bison who's in
the air mindlessly is going to get DP'ed back into reality. As a result, much
of my playing style calls for staying on the ground as much as possible, and
waiting for an opponent to commit before doing anything. Even in CE, EVERYONE
had something in store for a mindless torpedo or scissors or headstomp (which
about does it for Bison's special moves). Maybe against other novices, a
mindlessly torping Bison is tough, but against anyone who's any good, it's
useless. It's always funny that the ones who complain that Bison is a cheap
character are always the ones that get unmercifully massacred whenever they
try going Bison vs. Bison with me. People who don't play Bison just don't
understand the skill it takes to play him effectively, since few Bison players
out there can (most just go for the same ol' mindless torpedo over and over,
and never learn that he does, in fact, have better moves).
Let me consider the moves that could have countered Hellfire Torpedo in CE:
Ken/Ryu: FB, NK, DP
Guile: SB, FK, jab (though sometimes the jab trades hits)
Chun Li: aerial forward kick (one of the best non-DP counters in the game)
Zangief: aerial short kick, spinning lariat
Honda: veg-o-matic, strong slap
Blanka: nearly any aerial kick
Dhalsim: torp kick out of air, FB, flame
Vega: aerial forward kick (another good non-DP counter)
Sagat: TiUppercut, FB
Balrog: strong punch (if timed right)
Bison: aerial kick (sure trade-off), torp (another trade)
Considering that Bison's just about the weakest anti-torp guy in CE, why can
I beat the mindless torpers? Not by torping out myself, rest assured. Thus,
everyone's got easy access to an anti-torp weapon except Bison himself, yet
people still gripe that it's cheap. Excuse me?
>in CE, he had these awesome pseudo combos (pseudo combos are the ones that
>catch the other guy REAL bad if they aren't looking): My favorite: double
>kick/low forward/standing forward/double kick. Charging is started as soon
>as your first double kick is in flight, and the flight itself, plus the two
>forwards, will give you enough charge time for another double kick. This
>can be repeated, and few people could counter it. Every character could,
>though, it's the plaers who are pathetic.
>
I usually don't worry horrendously about combos too much, since Bison's a
simple enough character that he just doesn't have the repertoire to get much
combined. The only moves I ever use that could fall into this category (in CE)
were:
roundhouse scissors/low forward/standing roundhouse . . . toss
roundhouse scissors/standing roundhouse . . . toss
roundhouse head stomp/wait until land/toss
strong torp/toss if they block (far and away his deadliest move in CE)
low forward/standing roundhouse/jumping roundhouse (they often reflexively jump
into this third one)
>Also, a true combo: when the opponent is down for the dizzy, slide into him
>before he gets up so you'll be right next to him, and when he does get up,
>throw two standing jabs to buffer a Roundhouse double you've been charging
>since the beginning of your slide. It's hard to time two buffers, since
>you have to leave a time lag between the jab button hits and leave NO time
>lag between the second jab and the double kick(like tap, taptap). Does pretty
>good damage.
>
More than a throw? I might try this some time.
>In HF, NOTHING works. Not only did they slow down his double kick by a lot,
>so that there's more time to get your jab defense up, and lets your opponent
>see it soming instead of having to anticipate you, they gave him less distance
>on it, as well as a f*cking lag time of vulnerability after it's done. Like
>his slide. It's not long, but characters who have high priority throws like
>Zangief, Ryu, and Dhalsim can throw his merry ass out of the court easily
>after they block (or sometimes if they DIDN'T block) his double-kicks.
>
I don't know. The slide definitely doesn't work any more unless you're lucky
and catch them with their guards high and not low. Other than that, I find it
very handy for escaping jumping players who try to pin me in the corner (you
just slide underneath them; it doesn't work with guys like Sagat, Balrog, or
Zangief, who have low jumps, though). I still find the double kick preferable
to the torp in HF. However, that's because they've weakened the torpedo even
more than the scissors.
>Then there's the fact that his Hellfire torpedo only hits three or (very
>rarely) four times if the opponents block. I am not one to go back and
>forth on the screen with it to whittle opponents, since that's not only
>BORING but suicidal against any decent player, but chipping away at the
>the other guy once or twice is no more cheating than what Honda and Chun-Li
>players do all the time. Besides, the problem lay in the fact that since
>it only hits three times, the opponent is often left within throw range and
>can toss you as you get out of the Torp.
>
Extremely true, and as a result the strong torpedo is something I NEVER use
except against computer Sagat. A lot of players don't catch you in time if you
use the jab or fierce torpedo and wind up just behind them when you get out of
it, and you can usually throw them.
>His head stomp also has a reduced priority. And they call him the "King
>of Destruction". Sheesh! "King of Delusions" is more like it. i
Head stomp/land/toss pseudo-combo still works. I've surprised some monster
veterans many a time with that.
'Tis about right. I seriously believe that Capcom over-reacted to his
apparent unpopularity and weakened him. Considering that he was a tough
character to play (no projectiles, torp has no priority against any opponent
who knows how to knock you out of it, long enough hang time in air that he's
a flying target unless you're opponent's recovering from throwing some
projectile--which is why I usually stay on the ground unless someone's doing
just such a thing) even in CE, I really think they made a stupid move.
The flip side of this is that, once I get good enough with the weakened Bison
in HF, think of how much better I am once I return to CE, where he's still
a half-decent character? Once you get used to the fact that jab torpedo isn't
higher priority than the bigger ones in CE like it is in HF, there's not a
whole lot you can't do. It makes an excellent practice challenge. I've gotten
good enough with Bison in HF that I'd say there are only three or four people
in the area of this campus who can beat me >=30% of the time. Imagine what
happens when I go back to CE at home, where the character's that much stronger?
"I bet they make squishy sounds when I step on them!!!" :) :) :) :) :)
__________________________________________________________________________
|The Stilt Man fol...@xanth.cs.orst.edu |
| --Never ask a mortician to go out and bring you back a cold one. |
|__________________________________________________________________________|
|fol...@storm.cs.orst.edu | The opinions expressed do not necessarily |
|fol...@mundania.cs.orst.edu | represent those of Oregon State University |
|fol...@mist.cs.orst.edu | or any of its departments. Thus, the place|
|fol...@prism.cs.orst.edu | has not been the victim of arson recently. |
|_____________________________|____________________________________________|
Do unto others before they do unto you.
John Nishinaga
fol...@xanth.CS.ORST.EDU (Stilt Man) writes (in partial):
> In article <93105.11...@CUNYVM.BITNET> BLADERUNNER
> <M5...@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
>
> >Anyone still play Bison?
>
> Mostly because I'm used to his moves more than any other character, so I
> stay with him and learn what he can do better.
everybody and their mom played Bison.
> >Seriously. He is such a wus in HF.
>
> Quite. His jab torp is quite a bit better (not as easy to counter as the
> bigger ones, while in CE they were the same), but his strong torpedo is
> asking to get tossed or comboed once you get out in HF, while in CE you
> could sometimes throw him first.
shit was a bitch to reverse for some reason. You could even cheap computer
E. Honda and Blanka with it! :)
> However, his moves are more vulnerable, his priorities are just about
> rock-bottom against everyone (torp won't stop the flying sumo sit from
> Honda or the in-the-air ball, though the level ones still get stopped), and
> even if you do hit, one of Ryu's kicks does as much damage as one of
> Bison's throws. I suspect Capcom listened a little too closely to a bunch
> of stoopid Ken and Ryu players who griped about Bison players who torpedoed
> too much.
in CE was his 7-hitter. It was like one mistake and you die.
> >in CE, he had these awesome pseudo combos (pseudo combos are the ones that
> >catch the other guy REAL bad if they aren't looking): My favorite: double
> >kick/low forward/standing forward/double kick. Charging is started as
> >soon as your first double kick is in flight, and the flight itself, plus
> >the two forwards, will give you enough charge time for another double
> >kick. This can be repeated, and few people could counter it. Every
> >character could, though, it's the plaers who are pathetic.
>
> I usually don't worry horrendously about combos too much, since Bison's a
> simple enough character that he just doesn't have the repertoire to get
> much combined.
and a standing Foward and, guess what, dizzy! Then you just do the 7-hit
until he/she's dead. M. Bison had the best combo's in the game!
> >In HF, NOTHING works.
Well, almost nothing. :)
> >Not only did they slow down his double kick by a lot, so that there's more
> >time to get your jab defense up, and lets your opponent see it soming
> >instead of having to anticipate you, they gave him less distance on it, as
> >well as a f*cking lag time of vulnerability after it's done.
This little delay prevents you from getting a strong out so it's now impossible
to do the 7-hitter.
> >It's not long, but characters who have high priority throws like Zangief,
> >Ryu, and Dhalsim can throw his merry ass out of the court easily after
> >they block (or sometimes if they DIDN'T block) his double-kicks.
(hence the technique called "sac-throwing"). Secondly, there is no such
thing as priority with throws. The only difference is distance which I will
so kindly list below.
SF2:HF Throw Distances
Standard Sagat (-2/3 pixels)
Range Ryu, Guile, Ken, Chun Li, Bison, Vega
Throwers Balrog (+2/3 pixels)
Large Blanka, Zangief (w/o Screwdriver)
Range Dhalsim
Throwers E. Honda
Zangief (w/ Screwdriver)
Don't hold me to this list though! I checked this out one night and I didn't
get enough time to carefully go through it.
Back to what you were saying... If you notice there's a difference in how
far foward Scissor Kick's goes depending whether you press Short, Foward or
Roundhouse. You need to use the corresponding kick depending on how far away
you are from the opponent so that you can get both kicks but be far enough
away so they can't immedietely throw. You can also Back Flip after this to
escape throwing. I'm not positively sure about all this but it has worked
the times I've used it.
> The slide definitely doesn't work any more unless you're lucky and catch
> them with their guards high and not low. Other than that, I find it very
> handy for escaping jumping players who try to pin me in the corner (you
> just slide underneath them; it doesn't work with guys like Sagat, Balrog,
> or Zangief, who have low jumps, though).
character, like the example you stated.
> I seriously believe that Capcom over-reacted to his apparent unpopularity
> and weakened him.
7-hitter was discovered. The reason why the weakened him because he was too
good! Unfortunately, I think they weakened him in HF a bit TOO much. Oh
well...
Here's a few things I've noticed with a M. Bison. When Ryu/Ken (whatever)
try to neck kick you, don't necessarily pull the other way like you would
expect. Unless almost directly in back of you, keep pulling normal
Back/Defense. Also, a good cheap/tick is Foward Flip + Short, crouching Jab
to Jab Torpedo, throw. Really nasty because it's very obscure to time the
reverse.
--
John Nishinaga - jnis...@netcom.com
Alain Hoang
Bison... yes he is WEAK in HF. But I started getting into him on HF
and wish so bad for a CE Bison now. Anyways... since our zone is fairly weak
in throws.. I don't have to worry about much about getting thrown out of a
scissor kick. Torpedo... that's a give.. don't do it 90% of the time. The
only time you should use it as an aerial counter... a bad jump attack you
hit the torpedo and let the opponent land on his tail half of the body to
make sure you don't get kicked out of it.
As for Stuff that works.. you must be ten times more wiley and eager to
tick someone on HF with Bison. Although I don't tick that much with him. His
heel stomp is pretty weak.. but is his only chance at getting out of a FB
trap. Not much but you can try to take advantage of it. A jab after the scissor
kick is usually good enough to stop counterthrowers... but not much... jab jab
after the scissor kick then low forward into another one. You must play a mind
game to win. He is very hard to play now but fun if used right... but I don't
play him to win... unless I'm in a weird mood.
_/^-^-^-^\
/ _____ |
\ | | | "Might makes Right"
\ | |/ "Suck my Sheng Long"
|------|
|------|
|------|
|------|
Alain Hoang
hoa...@rpi.edu
Eu-Ming Lee
[About CE]
>What the *$&#?! You hit with one scissor kick followed by a crouching Strong
>and a standing Foward and, guess what, dizzy! Then you just do the 7-hit
>until he/she's dead. M. Bison had the best combo's in the game!
Hmmm... I remember someone posting this combo for CE looong ago. Perhaps
it was you. Anyway, Bison is severely underused. When CE first came out,
I absolutely refused to play Bison. After three days, someone was holding
the machine using Bison, and not with seven hit combos, if you know what I
mean. The crowd was restless and wanted a coup... so I picked Bison.
Well, the torpedo across the screen worked wonders. I flamed across the
screen more times than in this newsgroup, going through three games before
I got sick of it and gave my game away. Ever since then, I had a habit of
ALWAYS unleashing my evillest and most insidious ticks against Bison---
resulting in games which would last 15-20 seconds, depending on who got
the initiative. Well, my active discouragement of Bison playing seemed
to have worked. At UIUC, Bison isn't very impressive.
Anyway, the point i was getting to is that I've never seen anyone here
do that '7-hit combo' of Bison's. They either get thrown or DP-ed after
the scissors kick (as Lord Baal - a sometime Bisoner will tell ya).
But maybe it's because the Bison players at UIUC suck. So, anyone else
out there see a 7-hit Bison combo? I mean a TRUE combo.
>Unpopularity? Sheesh, nearly EVERYBODY down here played M. Bison when the
>7-hitter was discovered. The reason why the weakened him because he was too
>good! Unfortunately, I think they weakened him in HF a bit TOO much. Oh
>well...
I read about it on the net, and told some of the Bison players, but the
torpedo across the screen is still his best move.
>--
>John Nishinaga - jnis...@netcom.com
--
Eu-Ming Lee (aka CyberGeek) eum...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
Friends don't let friends use Windows.
jeffrey d. lake
my friends and I gave it a try. It works!!! IMO, ONLY against the
computer unless your opponent is stupid and forgets to block. But against the
computer it was easy to get double stuns on CE. I could never do it against
Chun Li or Blanka and rarely against Honda. I have yet to do it on HF for
obvious reasons: Bison sucks! Unlike the supposed technique, which started
with 3 CROUCHING JABS, I used 2 and still got the double stun. One less jab
makes it a HELL of a lot easier.
Seth James Killian
>jnis...@netcom.com (John Nishinaga) writes:
>[About CE]
>to have worked. At UIUC, Bison isn't very impressive.
Very true. I would say he is the _only_ character that has
not been mastered here. Maybe it was all the Guile's on CE, who knows.
>Anyway, the point i was getting to is that I've never seen anyone here
>do that '7-hit combo' of Bison's. They either get thrown or DP-ed after
>the scissors kick (as Lord Baal - a sometime Bisoner will tell ya).
>But maybe it's because the Bison players at UIUC suck. So, anyone else
>out there see a 7-hit Bison combo? I mean a TRUE combo.
When I get restless or tired of everyone else, I used to give
Bison a try once and a while. I tried again when I heard of the 7
hit combo. In fact, I was the one who originally brought it up, but
no one responded, and I let it go because I could not do it consistently so I didn't feel adequately prepared to defend against the expected
flamings. I did do it to the comp once, and also to some scrub, who
was not known to me. I did not know if it really was a combo, because
the comp is unreliable, and the scrub was so bad he might have simply
failed to block it. Regardless, I just let Bison fade away, allowing
for a potentially major oversight within UIUC SF2. No great loss IMO.
Seth Killian
John Nishinaga
eum...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (Eu-Ming Lee) writes (in partial):
> Anyway, the point i was getting to is that I've never seen anyone here do
> that '7-hit combo' of Bison's. They either get thrown or DP-ed after the
> scissors kick (as Lord Baal - a sometime Bisoner will tell ya). But maybe
> it's because the Bison players at UIUC suck. So, anyone else out there see
> a 7-hit Bison combo? I mean a TRUE combo.
worked on all characters, but it worked on at least 9. (E. Honda, Blanka and
M. Bison I'm not sure on.) The trick was being able to time the Strong after
the Foward Scissor Kick (not Roundhouse or Short) -- most people seemed to
have problems doing so.
Bison combo patterns got pretty nasty because of that -- one mistake and you
get dizzied and subsequentially die. If I remember correctly, you could trap
(real) Dhalsim with Scissor Kick, standing Short, standing Foward, etc. Mr.
Watson at Pico Rivera did this to me a few times during the CE days. If you
blocked the Scissor Kick, he would do standing Short; if you didn't, he would
do a crouching Strong. Next always came a standing Foward, then a Foward
Scissor Kick which you HAD to block -- anything you do would result in you
getting hit (you couldn't even trade with Jab).
Well, those days are history... Now my Dhalsim cheaps Bison's to death!
Bahaha! :)
Lord Baal
>Anyway, the point i was getting to is that I've never seen anyone here
>do that '7-hit combo' of Bison's. They either get thrown or DP-ed after
>the scissors kick (as Lord Baal - a sometime Bisoner will tell ya).
>But maybe it's because the Bison players at UIUC suck. So, anyone else
>out there see a 7-hit Bison combo? I mean a TRUE combo.
Yeah ming i havent played bison for HF because he really sucks...
I remeber playing Bison for CE when i would start running out of money
hahahahah :).... He definetely was the best character on that machine
but than i've never seen a 7 hit combo... and it cant be done ...
the only combos i knew worked for sure was the scissor kick low kick
the forward kick could be dped every time... The only reason
that Bison was so good was that his flame and his scissor kicks were
pretty much unstopable...if you used it right....plus bison had an awesome
tick capabilities....
Lord Baal.....
.
Stilt Man
>jnis...@netcom.com (John Nishinaga) writes:
>
>do that '7-hit combo' of Bison's. They either get thrown or DP-ed after
>the scissors kick (as Lord Baal - a sometime Bisoner will tell ya).
>But maybe it's because the Bison players at UIUC suck. So, anyone else
>out there see a 7-hit Bison combo? I mean a TRUE combo.
>
The way he originally posted it (I think):
roundhouse scissors/low forward/stand forward/roundhouse scissors
However, I can't ever get the last bit to go, because they always fall down
after one or the other of the two forwards. And this isn't really a true
combo, as far as I know. Unless you're thinking of the 7-hit in terms of
five jabs, then the scissors, but I'd think they'd fall over before the
scissors got to them.
>>Unpopularity? Sheesh, nearly EVERYBODY down here played M. Bison when the
>>7-hitter was discovered. The reason why the weakened him because he was too
>>good! Unfortunately, I think they weakened him in HF a bit TOO much. Oh
>>well...
>
>I read about it on the net, and told some of the Bison players, but the
>torpedo across the screen is still his best move.
>
Horsefeathers. No one ever beats me Bison v. Bison with that (in either
version). They only need to miss once and they're meat for the eating. I'll
use different moves; my fave in CE is the strong torp/throw-if-they-block
combo, though I don't use that at all repeatedly unless I need to. The three-
hit or four-hit scissors combos are the most damaging (half life off once they
get tossed). They probably aren't real combos in the usual sense, though if
you hit with the scissors, they usually can't block what's next. They usually
can't block the low kick whether or not they block the scissors, but the last
one is often blocked, so it would have to be a pseudo combo.
As far as "torpedofest" Bison tactics go, they only work against novices. A
half-decent Ken, Ryu or Guile player will eat him for breakfast if he relies
on it, and another Bison player has only to jump over the first torpedo, then
torpedo back just once. Bison doesn't recover from torpedoes fast enough to
avoid this counter. Once he's down, he'll be pinned in the corner, and
an opposing player has only to keep on the attack, and that torpedo will never
be seen again. Low shots will keep him from torpedoing again (he's vulnerable
to such until he's firmly in the flames), and high shots will as well. Being
a veteran Bison player, I know his weaknesses better than most anyone who tries
to play him against me, and as such they rarely are able to get away with the
torpedofest for long.
Eu-Ming Lee
> In regards to Bison's 7-hit combo. After learning about this combo,
>my friends and I gave it a try. It works!!! IMO, ONLY against the
>computer unless your opponent is stupid and forgets to block. But against the
Then it is NOT a combo. *SIGH* Let's have some stricter definitions of
a combo here. A combo is a series of moves which cannot be blocked once
the first hit connects. Anything else is simply a series of moves. Say
"Bison's 7-hit attack" and we'll know what you're talking about. By NOT
saying "Bison's 7-hit COMBO", we know that it's not a guaranteed 7 hits!
However, I think John N. means that Bison has a 7-hit combo, the unblockable
kind as defined above.
Eu-Ming Lee
>Yeah ming i havent played bison for HF because he really sucks...
>I remeber playing Bison for CE when i would start running out of money
>hahahahah :).... He definetely was the best character on that machine
>but than i've never seen a 7 hit combo... and it cant be done ...
>the only combos i knew worked for sure was the scissor kick low kick
>the forward kick could be dped every time... The only reason
And yet, you stick that forward kick out EVERYTIME ;). I have the
sound of you saying, "That's so STUPID. Why do I DO that??!" burned
into my SF memory. Maybe they'll digitize it and put it in SF3.
So, folx, how do you continue the Bison combo after the scissors kick/
low kick (3 hits)?
> Lord Baal.....
jeffrey d. lake
7-hit combo because THAT is what it was portrayed as in the Game Pro
strategy guide. After the scissors kick, the last 2 hits have contrasted
from person to person(I myself use crouching strong, standing forward), as
to the relevancy of this being a combo: IT IS A COMBO. If Capcom says it's
a combo, then it is! The initial jabs and the scissors kick are NOT
blockable, Ming, hence that part is a COMBO. As to the last 2 hits, I feel
it just takes less precise timing to score them against the computer.
Jeff Lake
Seth James Killian
> In regards to Bison's 7-hit combo. Everyone just calls it a
>7-hit combo because THAT is what it was portrayed as in the Game Pro
>strategy guide. After the scissors kick, the last 2 hits have contrasted
>from person to person(I myself use crouching strong, standing forward), as
>to the relevancy of this being a combo: IT IS A COMBO. If Capcom says it's
>a combo, then it is! The initial jabs and the scissors kick are NOT
^^^^^^^^^^
Whoa! I guess that Gamepro guide really knows its stuff huh? Wrong.
It is true that the guide was produced in conjunction with Capcom,
and so of course had their approval, but some of the stuff listed in
that guide was pure crap. RE: Capcom is a large company, who probably
do not deem the publishing of strategy guides worthy of their top
peoples time. This means that the Capcom reps who participate in
"approving" (whatever that may entail) these guides are probably not
the paragons of SF2 knowledge that many people might have hoped. I
recall previous listings of Capcom approved guides to include HK
combos (pre-HF) as well as many other proven false combos. Do not
take "Capcom"'s word as law, necessarily...
>blockable, Ming, hence that part is a COMBO. As to the last 2 hits, I feel
>it just takes less precise timing to score them against the computer.
The jabs and scissor kick also don't do more damage than
a throw, but they are a true combo. It is the remainder that lies
in question. Personally, I think it can be truly comboed, and the
key lies in using the forward scissor kick. I tried repeatedly using
the roundhouse, and had the strong punch blocked everytime. All our
Bison's (hi joong:) do suck, so you tell me.
Seth Killian
> Jeff Lake
Mark Maestas
Bison should be played a lot differently in HF than in CE. In CE, you
could generally be reckless and flame and scissor kick almost at will. In
HF, Bison's attacks are slower and more vulnerable. Bison is still a good
character to play except against Ryu (which is hell in both versions).
The following should be noted when playing HF Bison:
Some of his attacks, such as standing Forward and Roundhouse now have
a delay when you kick. Use these kicks sparingly.
His torpedo and scissor kick are also more vulnerable when executing them.
However, all of his attacks in general, do a lot more damage than before.
Since the torpedo is susceptible to being hit at the start, and thrown out
of when you land, the only good time you can flame "through" ie, so you don't
land right next to them. Also, flaming under a character that's in the air
so you that he will land on you is good too.
The scissor kick is more of a staple attack now. However, try to use
only the necessary strength kick needed to reach your opponent, ie don't use
Roundhouse when right next to your opponent, or you will be thrown, comboed,
etc. If you use Short and coonnect (hit or blocked), you will always have
time to recover so you can block or jump away.
Make good use of your aerial kicks as a psychological weapon. His kick
comes out almost instantly, so if you see someone jump, you can jump up and
kick before they have a chance to react. That is unless they were anticipating
you to jump up. If they anticipate you jumping, they have to attack in the
hopes that you will be there, otherwise, there isn't really time to react due
to the way Bison gains altitude quickly and his quick aerial attacks. This
gives you an advantage in the aerial game. On the ground, try to have patience
especially against Ryu and Ken. If they fireball you, keep jumping straight up
over them until you can find an opening. If a person whiffs an attack, react
immediately to punish them with a scissor kick (close-short, medium-Forward,
long- Roundhouse,but don't count on connecting on time).
Overall, Bison isn't too bad. In HF, it seems like every character has
a nemesis character. Bison's just happens to be the most commonly used
characters (Ryu and Ken). You might want to try him, just keep in mind that
he is not like he was in CE and should be played as a separate character
with his new abilities/limitations.
a
Brian Odom
>jnis...@netcom.com (John Nishinaga) writes:
>[About CE]
>>What the *$&#?! You hit with one scissor kick followed by a crouching Strong
>>and a standing Foward and, guess what, dizzy! Then you just do the 7-hit
>>until he/she's dead. M. Bison had the best combo's in the game!
That's why he was so unpopular over here.
>Hmmm... I remember someone posting this combo for CE looong ago. Perhaps
>it was you. Anyway, Bison is severely underused. When CE first came out,
>I absolutely refused to play Bison. After three days, someone was holding
>the machine using Bison, and not with seven hit combos, if you know what I
>mean. The crowd was restless and wanted a coup... so I picked Bison.
>Well, the torpedo across the screen worked wonders. I flamed across the
>screen more times than in this newsgroup, going through three games before
>I got sick of it and gave my game away. Ever since then, I had a habit of
>ALWAYS unleashing my evillest and most insidious ticks against Bison---
>resulting in games which would last 15-20 seconds, depending on who got
>the initiative. Well, my active discouragement of Bison playing seemed
>to have worked. At UIUC, Bison isn't very impressive.
He is devastating, too devastating which is why no one played him too much.
Bison was your "in case of emergency, break glass" character. There was like
an implicit "ban" on Bison. Whenever someone picked him, everyone had a
frown and many moans were heard in the background. "Eeewww!! Do you HAVE to
play Bison to win?? Just try to win with a normal character." Basically,
it was considered bad taste and "dishonorable" to play Bison because of his
power.
>Anyway, the point i was getting to is that I've never seen anyone here
>do that '7-hit combo' of Bison's. They either get thrown or DP-ed after
>the scissors kick (as Lord Baal - a sometime Bisoner will tell ya).
>But maybe it's because the Bison players at UIUC suck. So, anyone else
>out there see a 7-hit Bison combo? I mean a TRUE combo.
Haven't seen it myself.
>>Unpopularity? Sheesh, nearly EVERYBODY down here played M. Bison when the
>>7-hitter was discovered. The reason why the weakened him because he was too
>>good! Unfortunately, I think they weakened him in HF a bit TOO much. Oh
>>well...
That's why no one played him. He was considered "illegal", because he was too
good. Guess we went against Bison instead of pro-Bison.
>I read about it on the net, and told some of the Bison players, but the
>torpedo across the screen is still his best move.
Yes it is, and I agree.
JOSEPH BEAUREG HARTLEY
>jl...@engin.umich.edu (jeffrey d. lake) writes:
>
>> In regards to Bison's 7-hit combo. Everyone just calls it a
>>7-hit combo because THAT is what it was portrayed as in the Game Pro
>>strategy guide. After the scissors kick, the last 2 hits have contrasted
>>from person to person(I myself use crouching strong, standing forward), as
>>to the relevancy of this being a combo: IT IS A COMBO. If Capcom says it's
>>a combo, then it is! The initial jabs and the scissors kick are NOT
> ^^^^^^^^^^
> Whoa! I guess that Gamepro guide really knows its stuff huh? Wrong.
> It is true that the guide was produced in conjunction with Capcom,
> and so of course had their approval, but some of the stuff listed in
> that guide was pure crap. RE: Capcom is a large company, who probably
> do not deem the publishing of strategy guides worthy of their top
> peoples time. This means that the Capcom reps who participate in
> "approving" (whatever that may entail) these guides are probably not
> the paragons of SF2 knowledge that many people might have hoped. I
> recall previous listings of Capcom approved guides to include HK
> combos (pre-HF) as well as many other proven false combos. Do not
> take "Capcom"'s word as law, necessarily...
>
have a habit of printing the most outrageous information about SFII
that any player with a brain can spot.
The GamePro strategy guide is ok but still has errors. My favorite
is the damages listed for Vega's attacks. If you look the mag. says
D that Vega's kick air attacks do a LOT more damage than his punch
ones. Yes, I hope we know that both punch and kick buttons do the
SAME moves in the air, and same amount of damage. I wish they could
get an actual player to read over the magazing before publishing.
C
aisa
John Nishinaga
eum...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (Eu-Ming Lee) writes:
> jl...@engin.umich.edu (jeffrey d. lake) writes:
>
> > In regards to Bison's 7-hit combo. After learning about this combo,
> >my friends and I gave it a try. It works!!! IMO, ONLY against the
> >computer unless your opponent is stupid and forgets to block.
>
> combo here. A combo is a series of moves which cannot be blocked once the
> first hit connects. Anything else is simply a series of moves. Say
> "Bison's 7-hit attack" and we'll know what you're talking about. By NOT
> saying "Bison's 7-hit COMBO", we know that it's not a guaranteed 7 hits!
>
> However, I think John N. means that Bison has a 7-hit combo, the
> unblockable kind as defined above.
Scissor Kick, crouching Strong, standing Foward. It's a true verified real
combo that cannot be blocked. If it's not working for you then you aren't
doing it correctly. 'nuff said.
Kenichiro Tanaka
user Mark Mae...@cs.arizona. writes:
> Overall, Bison isn't too bad. In HF, it seems like every character has
>a nemesis character.
Now that Blanka kicks Balrog's butt on HF (or so I hear) who is his
nemesis? Does Honda still have an advantage against him? For a while, on
CE, I thought Chun Li beat Blanka but once he gets in on her and plays
really aggresively, she has a hard time getting out of the corner.
Oh, I guess Guile playing "I'm in the corner, being a boring loser,
doing nothing so I can nail you when you come in" can beat Blanka (or
most characters) but if you don't want to play a game that'll put you to
sleep before the first round is over, who do you use to beat Blanka?
While he doesn't quite have the outrageous power:skill ratio that CE
Bison has, Blanka is pretty annoying even when mediocre players are
using him, isn't he? I'm glad he doesn't get played around here too much.
Ken
Sima Yi
>Now that Blanka kicks Balrog's butt on HF (or so I hear) who is his
>nemesis? Does Honda still have an advantage against him?
There are a lot of different strategies or playing styles for each
character on HF. Much more than CE it seems. So, right now, I'm not
clear about dominant matchups because I see a lot of different players
handle each character different than on CE but also against a specific
character. There is still a lot of CE holdover styles but for the most
part, a lot of the really good players won't hesitate to mix things up.
Personally, I think 1) Ryu 2) Blanka and 3) Sagat are really tough on
Blanka.
>While he doesn't quite have the outrageous power:skill ratio that CE
>Bison has, Blanka is pretty annoying even when mediocre players are
>using him, isn't he? I'm glad he doesn't get played around here too much.
No Blanka players at CMU anymore? Hey Cliff, what happened??? Around NYC,
there's been an explosion of Blanka players.
--
//Lui Sieh |How seldom we weigh our neighbor in the same
Mail: si...@panix.com |balance with ourselves. -- Thomas A Kempis
_____________________________________________________________________
Disclaimer: These are my opinions...but others may share them as well
Mark Maestas
>On 18-Apr-93 in Re: Bison: CE vs. HF
>user Mark Mae...@cs.arizona. writes:
>
>> Overall, Bison isn't too bad. In HF, it seems like every character has
>>a nemesis character.
>
>Now that Blanka kicks Balrog's butt on HF (or so I hear) who is his
>nemesis? Does Honda still have an advantage against him? For a while, on
>CE, I thought Chun Li beat Blanka but once he gets in on her and plays
>really aggresively, she has a hard time getting out of the corner.
Forward, and Roundhouse; HHS; Invincible (vs. air) Headbutt/Torpedo;
and the amazing Buttafuocco (Sumo Dive). Also, a couple of times, I got
a Blanka player trapped in the corner (near death). I was close to him
so I did a Roundhouse Buttafuocco and he had to block when I went up and
when I went down. By the time I landed, I already had charge for another
one, so I did it again (block, block). So I thought, hmmmm... after two more
of these, he was dead. Now that I think about it, is there any effective
way for Blanka to get out of this seemingly evil >:) move??
Balrog is still a problem for Blanka. He can't hit Blanka after blocking
a Speedball as easily as in CE, but it's still pretty reliable. Balrog's
charging Uppercut is still a force to contend with, add to it, the fact
that his charging Straight Punch can hit people that are ducking (even
Blanka) and Balrog can still give Blanka a massive workout.
I think Chun Li has a better time with Blanka in HF, not that she's
dominating, but I think that they're about equal.
>Oh, I guess Guile playing "I'm in the corner, being a boring loser,
>doing nothing so I can nail you when you come in" can beat Blanka (or
>most characters) but if you don't want to play a game that'll put you to
>sleep before the first round is over, who do you use to beat Blanka?
Guile has a really tough time with Blanka unless he's really patient.
Getting hit by a Speedball is worse than walking into a Sonic Boom. Guile
must use guile and patience in order to win. That means don't do a lot
of low Forward kicks or...Speedball to the face (ouch!), no Sonic Booms
every time you've got the charge, caution with your Flash Kicks, etc.
>While he doesn't quite have the outrageous power:skill ratio that CE
>Bison has, Blanka is pretty annoying even when mediocre players are
>using him, isn't he? I'm glad he doesn't get played around here too much.
>
>Ken
Mark "Terminator" Maestas
mae...@cs.arizona.edu
"Hasta la vista, baby." - [8^!
Philip John Stroffolino
>a Speedball as easily as in CE, but it's still pretty reliable. Balrog's
>charging Uppercut is still a force to contend with, add to it, the fact
>that his charging Straight Punch can hit people that are ducking (even
>Blanka) and Balrog can still give Blanka a massive workout.
this match (on HF) *is* lopsided in Blanka's favor
Balrog does give Blanka a "massive workout" but with a bit of strategy,
a good Blanka player can more-or-less consistantly beat a good Balrog
player
luckily most Blanka players don't realize this, yet :)
they still fear "the Man"
1) Balrog's increased vulnerability with the charging uppercut:
Blanka can jump in with a flying short/forward with relative safety
an early flying fierce claw hits Balrog cleanly out of a charging uppercut
2) Balrog's overall reduced damage:
Blanka makes out when exchanging damage (high level TAP's excluded)
a Blanka ball does more damage than a Balrog charge punch
a Blanka fierce does more damage than a shaken off headbutt + blocked TAP
3) Vertical Ball:
Yet another way for Blanka to get in / counter Balrog on HF... unless
done from far away, there is no good counter to this move (so far as I
know)
BTW, it is still fairly easy for Blanka to defend against Balrog (worst
that'll happen is a nick from a blocked rushing punch), especially if
you use Blanka's long limbs to keep Balrog at a reactable distance
*and* Blanka's combos still work on Balrog, but some of Balrog's combos
still don't work on Blanka (namely those involving rushing uppercuts)
so to sum it up, Blanka can now get in on Balrog (and shock / bite /
headbutt / whatever), but Balrog is in no better shape in getting in on
a defensive Blanka
- phil
Stilt Man
>
> Bison should be played a lot differently in HF than in CE. In CE, you
>could generally be reckless and flame and scissor kick almost at will. In
>HF, Bison's attacks are slower and more vulnerable. Bison is still a good
>character to play except against Ryu (which is hell in both versions).
>
I dunno about this. I've played so many Ken/Ryu players in both versions that
I generally eat most of them for breakfast.
>The following should be noted when playing HF Bison:
>
> Some of his attacks, such as standing Forward and Roundhouse now have
>a delay when you kick. Use these kicks sparingly.
>
Yup. Agreed.
> His torpedo and scissor kick are also more vulnerable when executing them.
>However, all of his attacks in general, do a lot more damage than before.
>
I hope you goofed this one. His attacks are so much wimpier in HF than they
were in CE that one of Ken/Ryu's kicks does as much as Bison's throws. In CE,
his throws were things to be greatly feared.
> Since the torpedo is susceptible to being hit at the start, and thrown out
>of when you land, the only good time you can flame "through" ie, so you don't
>land right next to them. Also, flaming under a character that's in the air
>so you that he will land on you is good too.
>
Not true. Ken and Ryu (in HF) can kick Bison anywhere on or near the
torpedo and knock him out of it. I've had several games early on where I
didn't know this yet, and Ryu and Ken kicked me out of the torpedo by putting
their foot behind my feet with the kick. I still was hurting. All is not
lost, however; you just have to time the thing so that when they're in the
air, they descend enough so that their feet are too low to do them any good.
I've gotten into this habit now, because it works against everybody.
> The scissor kick is more of a staple attack now. However, try to use
>only the necessary strength kick needed to reach your opponent, ie don't use
>Roundhouse when right next to your opponent, or you will be thrown, comboed,
>etc. If you use Short and coonnect (hit or blocked), you will always have
>time to recover so you can block or jump away.
>
Fairly good idea, but I generally go for the big one no matter what, simply
because the third kick any time soon after that will net you a dizzy, all of
which adds up to 50% dead opponent.
> Make good use of your aerial kicks as a psychological weapon. His kick
>comes out almost instantly, so if you see someone jump, you can jump up and
>kick before they have a chance to react. That is unless they were anticipating
>you to jump up. If they anticipate you jumping, they have to attack in the
>hopes that you will be there, otherwise, there isn't really time to react due
>to the way Bison gains altitude quickly and his quick aerial attacks. This
>gives you an advantage in the aerial game. On the ground, try to have patience
>especially against Ryu and Ken. If they fireball you, keep jumping straight up
>over them until you can find an opening. If a person whiffs an attack, react
>immediately to punish them with a scissor kick (close-short, medium-Forward,
>long- Roundhouse,but don't count on connecting on time).
>
I don't know about the aerial kicks. I generally only jump at all when it's
over a projectile or in defense like you said above, since he has no aerial
defense at all against close jumping attacks (though if you've got space, you
can back out of their range and time a torpedo to flame their Sheng Long out
of there). Bison may rise fast and kick fast, but he's got so much hang time
that he's a floating target if his opponent can take the initiative on it.
Also, his priorities are about rock bottom in HF, so nearly anyone can kick
him in an aerial joust if they want.
> Overall, Bison isn't too bad. In HF, it seems like every character has
>a nemesis character. Bison's just happens to be the most commonly used
>characters (Ryu and Ken). You might want to try him, just keep in mind that
>he is not like he was in CE and should be played as a separate character
>with his new abilities/limitations.
>
>
Part of the problem with Bison is that his damages are so weak now, as well as
his priorities (punch, kick, throw, you name it), that Ken and Ryu simply have
a leg up on him. However, they've got weaknesses, too, that a good Bison
player can key on and give them some serious trouble. It's very difficult to
keep him away for a Ken/Ryu if he wants to attack, and fireballing him is
foolhardy if he knows what to do about it (head stomp, simple neck kick timed
right). If timed right, Bison doesn't need to wait for a whiffed attack from
them at all, not even from Ryu. He does recover fast, but there's still a
delay there. Sometimes even I'll get caught by a FB/DP tactic, but for the
most part I eventually get my timing right once I'm warmed up. There are a lot
of adept Ken and Ryu players around here, and there's still only about three
people who can beat me more than 30% of the time in this campus area (I'm a
Bison player). Only one of them is a Ken/Ryu player. One of them is a Guile,
and he can only beat me in HF, not in CE. I will grant that given people of
equal skill playing Bison vs. Ken/Ryu/Guile, the latter will usually win. The
Bison character has been weakened easily enough to give them an advantage.
However, he still has enough vestiges of his old power that it does take
consummate masters of the latter three characters to do it.
>a
Seth James Killian
>this match (on HF) *is* lopsided in Blanka's favor
I disagree. In CE it was obviously Balrog's match, and the
changes made in HF do not effectively countermand the old advantages.
>Balrog does give Blanka a "massive workout" but with a bit of strategy,
>a good Blanka player can more-or-less consistantly beat a good Balrog
>player
>luckily most Blanka players don't realize this, yet :)
>they still fear "the Man"
>1) Balrog's increased vulnerability with the charging uppercut:
>Blanka can jump in with a flying short/forward with relative safety
>an early flying fierce claw hits Balrog cleanly out of a charging uppercut
I disagree again. It is easy for Blanka to trade damage with
the uppercuts, but he always loses the trade, even fierce claw vs.
rushing short. If you are getting hit cleanly out of your uppercuts
then you are attacking too soon.
>2) Balrog's overall reduced damage:
>Blanka makes out when exchanging damage (high level TAP's excluded)
>a Blanka ball does more damage than a Balrog charge punch
>a Blanka fierce does more damage than a shaken off headbutt + blocked TAP
Blanka's damage suffered some too, but this is beside the point. Blanka has no truly effective way to approach a competent Balrog whereas Balrog can charge in recklessly. If Balrog is positioned correctly and
is charged, Blanka cannot jump in (even if you aren't charged you can
keep him away with a last second crouching fierce or standing strong).
Blanka is matched for range and damage on the ground, and he cannot
use the ball (not even the jab one). I would call their total damage
potential approximately equal, with Balrog in a slight lead (not counting ugly super TAP's). Especially even when you consider that
while Blanka's fierce may sometimes do more damage than Balrog's, the
significantly more common match up is something like Blanka's forward
kick vs. Balrog's fierce... no contest.
>3) Vertical Ball:
>Yet another way for Blanka to get in / counter Balrog on HF... unless
>done from far away, there is no good counter to this move (so far as I
>know)
The vertical ball was an effective technique for a while here,
but there are several effective counters, dependent upon range. The
most effective is usually crouching fierce, executed late so as to hit
with the "head butt" section. Blanka will lose this trade too.
>BTW, it is still fairly easy for Blanka to defend against Balrog (worst
>that'll happen is a nick from a blocked rushing punch), especially if
>you use Blanka's long limbs to keep Balrog at a reactable distance
It is true that Blanka can be pretty effective in keeping
Balrog away, but Balrog has the same ability to a higher degree.
If Balrog knows his spacing, you won't often get in to even try
those ticks.
>*and* Blanka's combos still work on Balrog, but some of Balrog's combos
>still don't work on Blanka (namely those involving rushing uppercuts)
Cry Balrog a river. Blanka's combos do ridiculously little
damage as compared to CE, which puts them about equal in this regard.
Even simple Balrog combos do as much damage as Blanka's best.
>so to sum it up, Blanka can now get in on Balrog (and shock / bite /
>headbutt / whatever), but Balrog is in no better shape in getting in on
>a defensive Blanka
It is true that Balrog has been given no new approaches
against a defensive Blanka, but Blanka's only addition (vertical
ball) should eventually come to be seen as an easy counter, and
a free hit for Balrog. Assuming Blanka gets in for whatever reason,
everyone knows the shock's range is too small to be used as a real
offensive weapon, so to even knock off a few pixels Blanka must be
very (re: too) close in. Headbutt: who cares? A blocked headbutt
does no damage, and doesn't put Blanka in a particularly advantageous
position. Bite: Same as any tick, if you got ticked, you blew it
somewhere along the line. Balrog's rushing punches are slightly
more vulnerable, but if you are using the right punch for the distance,
the difference is negligible. And there can be no argument that it is
significantly easier for Balrog to rush in at a defensive Blanka than
it is for Blanka to suicidally ball himself at a defensive Balrog.
Advantage: Balrog.
Seth Killian
Seth James Killian
>In article <sfoRM0a00...@andrew.cmu.edu> Kenichiro Tanaka
><kt...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>Now that Blanka kicks Balrog's butt on HF (or so I hear) who is his
>>nemesis? Does Honda still have an advantage against him?
Blanka is still at a disadvantage against Honda and Balrog.
>Personally, I think 1) Ryu 2) Blanka and 3) Sagat are really tough on
>Blanka.
Ryu: Can be a very tough fight against a skillful defensive
Ryu, but the only place Blanka really gets hurt is by jumping in to
DP's (lord knows that damage is the same as it ever was...:). I play
a very ground based Blanka. It requires very quick reactions, but is]
a _lot_ safer than haplessly jumping into DP's. You "perch" a little
out of Ryu's roundhouse sweep range and sit there peppering him with
_occasional_ balls, and knocking him out of every silly FB he tries
before it even leaves his hands. A waiting game. Ryu should not be
able to jump in too often, and even if he does, both the vertical and
horizontal ball in combination with standing fierce make excellent
counters. Close fight, but approximately equal, Ryu has no great
advantage IMO.
Blanka: I've never really understood those who say vs fights
are the toughest. Isn't this somewhat a kin to saying that the other
guy is just better than you? I mean, there can be no character
advantage. It is, however, true that a really defensive Blanka can
hold off another (after scoring a couple quick hits) for the whole
round. Ticking is no real help either. The other Blanka can literally
run away the whole round.
Sagat: I think Blanka just flat out has the advantage here,
although the new Sagat makes things a lot closer. It's annoying to
actually be knocked out of the air by the TK. Sagat's hyper damage
contrasted to Blanka's lessened damage also makes things interesting,
but a Blanka who makes very few mistakes will beat Sagat.
Seth Killian
Philip John Stroffolino
>Philip John Stroffolino <ps...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>this match (on HF) *is* lopsided in Blanka's favor
> I disagree. In CE it was obviously Balrog's match, and the
> changes made in HF do not effectively countermand the old advantages.
On CE it was NOT obviously Balrog's match... if you think this, you have
never played a Blanka god on CE with Balrog. Whoever attacks first is
doomed. Period. Just because CE Balrog can easily deal with any Blanka
attack does not mean he has an advantage - Blanka can very easily deal
with and Balrog attack on CE, as well. What Balrog was great for was
destroying Blanka "masters" who were either impatient or inexperienced
at that particular matchup.
>>Balrog does give Blanka a "massive workout" but with a bit of strategy,
>>a good Blanka player can more-or-less consistantly beat a good Balrog
>>player
>>luckily most Blanka players don't realize this, yet :)
>>they still fear "the Man"
>>1) Balrog's increased vulnerability with the charging uppercut:
>>Blanka can jump in with a flying short/forward with relative safety
>>an early flying fierce claw hits Balrog cleanly out of a charging uppercut
>I disagree again. It is easy for Blanka to trade damage with
> the uppercuts, but he always loses the trade, even fierce claw vs.
> rushing short. If you are getting hit cleanly out of your uppercuts
> then you are attacking too soon.
are you sure about that trade (fierce Blanka claw vs. Balrog charging
uppercut on HF)? Even on CE, that trade was close...
there are several distances/attakcs that Blanka can jump in from with
absolute safety. One of them is a long range flying roundhouse.
Another is a midrange flying claw. Flying short/forward kicks are a
bitch from almost any distance. And all of these attacks can be "faked"
- i.e. Blanka does not attack in the air, but goes for a trip instead.
BTW, Balrog is not Guile :)
there is no advantage to attacking late with a charging uppercut -
charging uppercuts are effective because they can hit opponents while
they are still high in the air. On HF, his extended arm is vulnerable -
many of Blanka's in-the-air attacks are angled and/or high "priority"
and will hit Balrog out of a charging uppercut.
>>2) Balrog's overall reduced damage:
>>Blanka makes out when exchanging damage (high level TAP's excluded)
>>a Blanka ball does more damage than a Balrog charge punch
>>a Blanka fierce does more damage than a shaken off headbutt + blocked TAP
>Blanka's damage suffered some too, but this is beside the point.
not nearly as much :)
>Blanka has no truly effective way to approach a competent
>Balrog whereas Balrog can charge in recklessly.
what!?! are you implying something :)
BTW, Balrog can't charge in recklessly against a "competent" Blanka :)
>If Balrog is positioned correctly and is charged,
>Blanka cannot jump in (even if you aren't charged
>you can keep him away with a last second crouching
>fierce or standing strong).
standing strongs are useless against Blanka...
I haven't tried last second ducking fierce punches, yet;
> Blanka is matched for range and damage on the ground, and he cannot
> use the ball (not even the jab one).
and Balrog cannot use the rushing uppercut (not even the short one) :)
why the heck would Blanka ball? - though the jab ball (the one that
misses) is a great surprise move to screw with a human Balrog's
conditioned reflexes :)
untrue - Balrog is only matched for range on the ground if he stands up
for a standing fierce (risky at best 'cept against the computer), and is
not evenly matched damagewise vs. Blanka with the normal ground based
attacks...
This mystique of Balrog's wonderful punching power is starting to get to me :)
sure, he looks like he hits hard (huge rippling torso and arms :) ), but
his non-super-TAP punching power is pretty sad; speed (rushing/jabbing)
is HF Balrog's main offensive plus;
...besides, both characters can block any ground based attack
>I would call their total damage
> potential approximately equal, with Balrog in a slight lead (not
> counting ugly super TAP's). Especially even when you consider that
> while Blanka's fierce may sometimes do more damage than Balrog's, the
> significantly more common match up is something like Blanka's forward
> kick vs. Balrog's fierce... no contest.
>>3) Vertical Ball:
>>Yet another way for Blanka to get in / counter Balrog on HF... unless
>>done from far away, there is no good counter to this move (so far as I
>>know)
> The vertical ball was an effective technique for a while here,
> but there are several effective counters, dependent upon range. The
> most effective is usually crouching fierce, executed late so as to hit
> with the "head butt" section. Blanka will lose this trade too.
does he? I hope so - I'll have to check this out! I hope you are not
speculating :) :)
Maybe the headbutt part of Balrog's close ducking fierce does extra damage...
Blanka's vertical ball DOES hurt more than a 'normal' Balrog ducking fierce;
If it is true that a last minute close ducking fierce is a good counter
against Blanka's vertical ball, you should have posted it earlier!!! :)
Several people have been looking for a Balrog counter to a close
vertical ball...
>>BTW, it is still fairly easy for Blanka to defend against Balrog (worst
>>that'll happen is a nick from a blocked rushing punch), especially if
>>you use Blanka's long limbs to keep Balrog at a reactable distance
> It is true that Blanka can be pretty effective in keeping
> Balrog away, but Balrog has the same ability to a higher degree.
> If Balrog knows his spacing, you won't often get in to even try
> those ticks.
the only time a Balrog player has much control over his spacing is after
he has knocked Blanka down - that's like suggesting Guile stand up to
position himself better against Honda :) Blanka controls the spacing so
long as Balrog is keeping a charging uppercut ready...
>>*and* Blanka's combos still work on Balrog, but some of Balrog's combos
>>still don't work on Blanka (namely those involving rushing uppercuts)
> Cry Balrog a river. Blanka's combos do ridiculously little
> damage as compared to CE, which puts them about equal in this regard.
> Even simple Balrog combos do as much damage as Blanka's best.
whoah momma! Balrog can't hit Blanka with any combo involving charging
uppercuts (not that it's wise to jump in on Blanka :) )...
a simple flying fierce claw, standing strong slap, ducking fierce hurts
like hell and is easy to boot..
>>so to sum it up, Blanka can now get in on Balrog (and shock / bite /
>>headbutt / whatever), but Balrog is in no better shape in getting in on
>>a defensive Blanka
> It is true that Balrog has been given no new approaches
> against a defensive Blanka, but Blanka's only addition (vertical
> ball) should eventually come to be seen as an easy counter, and
hopefully!
> a free hit for Balrog. Assuming Blanka gets in for whatever reason,
> everyone knows the shock's range is too small to be used as a real
> offensive weapon, so to even knock off a few pixels Blanka must be
a good player doesn't use if as a offensive weapon - he uses it when he
is ahead (or tied) on health to pin Balrog. The instant Balrog tries to
get out, he get's nailed...
> very (re: too) close in. Headbutt: who cares? A blocked headbutt
> does no damage, and doesn't put Blanka in a particularly advantageous
Blanka headbutt is a mix-it-up move; gives Balrog something to think
about when trying to counter a (presumed) bite
> position. Bite: Same as any tick, if you got ticked, you blew it
true :) but Blanka has a decent extended range on it, *and* can come
out of close range electricity right into a bite... try reacting to that!
> somewhere along the line. Balrog's rushing punches are slightly
> more vulnerable, but if you are using the right punch for the distance,
> the difference is negligible. And there can be no argument that it is
> significantly easier for Balrog to rush in at a defensive Blanka than
> it is for Blanka to suicidally ball himself at a defensive Balrog.
> Advantage: Balrog.
only if you assume that the blanka player wants to "suicidally ball" at
Balrog...
haven't you met a Blanka that can react to Balrog's charges? Blanka's
probably the easiest character to do it with - just duck (not in defence
so you don't get stuck in the blocked position) and trip as soon as
Balrog rushes; if he jumps at you, standup and claw...
gosh - with all the reaction to throw attempts you can do, you'd think
you could react to a charge :)
oh - and super aggression (ala Ryu/Ken) is suicide for Balrog against a
savy Blanka...
Phil
Lord Baal
> against a defensive Blanka, but Blanka's only addition (vertical
> ball) should eventually come to be seen as an easy counter,
there is no counter to blankas verticle with
balrog....if you get close enough what happens
is that when you do a close verticle the ball gets
behind balrog lots of times and there is nothing
he can do...after blanka balls he can bit or electricity
Seth James Killian
OK, allow me to clarify. If the Vert ball is anywhere from directly
overhead to about an inch in front of you, the crouching fierce works.
If it gets behind you so you are being "neck balled", I know of no
counter, but it is not that hard to avoid being in this situation at
all, because you can walk forward underneath it, without letting it
touch you.
Seth Killian
Michael McCool
: Now that Blanka kicks Balrog's butt on HF (or so I hear) who is his
: nemesis? Does Honda still have an advantage against him?
I think so. Given that Honda can torpedo just about anything Blanka does
now, it's usually not a bad match. The only thing they gave Blanka to
win against a ground-based Honda is that Honda can no longer torpedo Blanka
out of his electricity.
Which is hardly a problem.
--MLM
--
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/ oo \ Mike McCool m...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu / oo \
\ .. / mrcnext admin at large \ .. /
|||| "Truth is imagination" --Ursula K. Leguin ||||
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