Throwing Questions
John Nishinaga
Some strange things that happened to me in terms of throwing:
o Opponent right next to me as I am on the ground. As I get up, I hold
Back/Defense and tap Strong (or whatever). It results in a close standing
Strong Punch, even though the character is practically hugging me. This
happened a few times on CE.
o Opponent is on the ground and I'm right next to him/her. Immedietely as
opponent gets up, I throw him -- no pause, no tick, just as if it were a
counter throw except it was done by the guy already standing. I have seen/done
this on both CE and HF, and I know a friend who has done this as well on HF.
o Opponent is on the ground and I (Chun Li) am a bit away from him/her. I throw
a Jab Fireball and it connects as I'm still in the fireball pose. I get out of
it while the opponent is still reeling back and I throw -- VERY much like a
classic SF2 cheap move. Obviously, this was done on HF.
Does anybody have any explanations to these? In my infinite wisdom of the
game, I sure as hell don't, except maybe the third in which ticks can be done
faster in HF.
--
John Nishinaga - jnis...@nyx.cs.du.edu
Brian Odom
>Some strange things that happened to me in terms of throwing:
>
>o Opponent right next to me as I am on the ground. As I get up, I hold
>Back/Defense and tap Strong (or whatever). It results in a close standing
>Strong Punch, even though the character is practically hugging me. This
>happened a few times on CE.
I think we've all have encountered this one time or another...
>o Opponent is on the ground and I'm right next to him/her. Immedietely as
>opponent gets up, I throw him -- no pause, no tick, just as if it were a
>counter throw except it was done by the guy already standing. I have seen/done
>this on both CE and HF, and I know a friend who has done this as well on HF.
I do this a lot now to newbies. I use it in a "double-throw". Throw the
opponent to the ground. Stand right outside of throwing range. As soon as the
opponent gets up, if he's not attacking (blocking or standing still), you can
throw again. Must be a split second after opponent stands up to be effective.
Really gets ooohs and aaahs from the crowd. I do this with Guile. I can do
this pretty consistently. I've even done it to the computer!!!
>o Opponent is on the ground and I (Chun Li) am a bit away from him/her. I throw
>a Jab Fireball and it connects as I'm still in the fireball pose. I get out of
>it while the opponent is still reeling back and I throw -- VERY much like a
>classic SF2 cheap move. Obviously, this was done on HF.
I don't quite follow. You say you are a bit away, but you recover from FB and
throw?? Aren`t you too far away?? You must be real close.
John Nishinaga
bo...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brian Odom) writes:
>In <1993Feb19....@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jnis...@nyx.cs.du.edu (John
>Nishinaga) writes:
>
>>Some strange things that happened to me in terms of throwing:
>>
>>opponent gets up, I throw him -- no pause, no tick, just as if it were a
>>counter throw except it was done by the guy already standing. I have
>>seen/done this on both CE and HF, and I know a friend who has done this as
>>well on HF.
>
>I do this a lot now to newbies. I use it in a "double-throw". Throw the
>opponent to the ground. Stand right outside of throwing range. As soon as
>the opponent gets up, if he's not attacking (blocking or standing still), you
>can throw again. Must be a split second after opponent stands up to be
>effective. Really gets ooohs and aaahs from the crowd. I do this with Guile.
>I can do this pretty consistently. I've even done it to the computer!!!
then. If I can get that timing, it will be quite awesome. :)
>>o Opponent is on the ground and I (Chun Li) am a bit away from him/her. I
>>throw a Jab Fireball and it connects as I'm still in the fireball pose. I
>>get out of it while the opponent is still reeling back and I throw -- VERY
>>much like a classic SF2 cheap move. Obviously, this was done on HF.
>
>I don't quite follow. You say you are a bit away, but you recover from FB and
>throw?? Aren`t you too far away?? You must be real close.
Lee Eu-Ming
>Some strange things that happened to me in terms of throwing:
>
Well, I can make some guesses. But to be certain, I would have
to know what your opponent was doing at the time. Sometimes, I
ask, "What were you trying to do?"
>o Opponent right next to me as I am on the ground. As I get up, I hold
>Back/Defense and tap Strong (or whatever). It results in a close standing
>Strong Punch, even though the character is practically hugging me. This
>happened a few times on CE.
Dunno about this one. I had a theory once that if you were moving
from defensive crouch to back defense or vice-versa, you couldn't get
thrown. I haven't tested this one out vigorously since Classic, but
I recall that the few times that we tried, it was a failed theory.
The times that I know you CAN'T get thrown are: After you've blocked
a hit or after you've started a special move. In both these cases,
the opponent can't throw when you can't throw.
I don't have information about your situation to draw any conclusions.
>o Opponent is on the ground and I'm right next to him/her. Immedietely as
>opponent gets up, I throw him -- no pause, no tick, just as if it were a
>counter throw except it was done by the guy already standing. I have seen/done
>this on both CE and HF, and I know a friend who has done this as well on HF.
The 'no-tick tick' is one of my favorites. If they're expecting you
do something nasty to them, you can wait until after they get up and are
in defensive crouch for a split second, and then throw them. If they
decide to counter-throw right away, you're tossed, no matter how you
try this 'no-tick tick'.
>o Opponent is on the ground and I (Chun Li) am a bit away from him/her. I throw
>a Jab Fireball and it connects as I'm still in the fireball pose. I get out of
>it while the opponent is still reeling back and I throw -- VERY much like a
>classic SF2 cheap move. Obviously, this was done on HF.
What explanation do you need? You can get thrown while you are reeling
back. I don't think you can counter-throw this one, though. I've
tried to throw well-timed flying roundhouse kicks which hit and the
opponent goes for the throw (because he's too lame to combo, I guess),
but if they time it properly, you can't counter it.
>Does anybody have any explanations to these? In my infinite wisdom of the
>game, I sure as hell don't, except maybe the third in which ticks can be done
>faster in HF.
>--
>John Nishinaga - jnis...@nyx.cs.du.edu
--
Eu-Ming Lee (aka CyberGeek) eum...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
"Error - Keyboard not detected. Press F1 to continue."
- From the wisdom of DOS 5.0
Frederick Tang
Don't people in your school have rules against
playing cheap
throwing a blocked player is very cheap
-Frederick
Christopher Jon Petit
>throwing a blocked player is very cheap
Ugh! If you don't throw a blocking player, then I guess Chun Li, Zangief,
E. Honda and Vega are worthless, right? Their main abilities are in their
throws (I consider the SPD a throw---although I'm thinking of starting to
call the SPD the "Vortex" or "Black Hole"---after all, look at that REACH on
that baby :&) )---so that's like saying they can do NOTHING to a blocked
opponent.
--
Quote of the Week: "People quote each other too much."
What am I? Heck, I dunno---if you have any ideas, bring them to me.
Storyline: He stood coolly, watching the lion crouched on top of the
sharp, pointed rocks. It seemed to glare at him. Then, it leaped forward...
Crying Freeman
>jnis...@nyx.cs.du.edu (John Nishinaga) writes:
>>o Opponent is on the ground and I'm right next to him/her. Immedietely as
>>opponent gets up, I throw him -- no pause, no tick, just as if it were a
>>counter throw except it was done by the guy already standing. I have seen/done
>>this on both CE and HF, and I know a friend who has done this as well on HF.
>The 'no-tick tick' is one of my favorites. If they're expecting you
>do something nasty to them, you can wait until after they get up and are
>in defensive crouch for a split second, and then throw them. If they
>decide to counter-throw right away, you're tossed, no matter how you
>try this 'no-tick tick'.
Ah... I was confused as to what they were talking about...
The invisible sonic boom 'no-tick tick'. My favorite !! :)
>>--
>>John Nishinaga - jnis...@nyx.cs.du.edu
>--
>Eu-Ming Lee (aka CyberGeek) eum...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
>"Error - Keyboard not detected. Press F1 to continue."
> - From the wisdom of DOS 5.0
--
Che-Yuan Wang
cw2...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
cyw...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Crying Freeman
Jeez... I'm not even gonna bother arguing about your "ethics"
Anyways, if you're talking about the 'no-tick tick', the opponent
isn't blocking...
>-Frederick
Brian Odom
>bo...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Brian Odom) writes:
>
>>In <1993Feb19....@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jnis...@nyx.cs.du.edu (John
>>Nishinaga) writes:
>>I do this a lot now to newbies. I use it in a "double-throw". Throw the
>>opponent to the ground. Stand right outside of throwing range. As soon as
>>the opponent gets up, if he's not attacking (blocking or standing still), you
>>can throw again. Must be a split second after opponent stands up to be
>>effective. Really gets ooohs and aaahs from the crowd. I do this with Guile.
>>I can do this pretty consistently. I've even done it to the computer!!!
>
>What the #*&@? You can do this consistantly?! I gotta try this more often
>then. If I can get that timing, it will be quite awesome. :)
To a newbie, yes. Against people with clue, only about 0-10% of the time.
What they do now is after I throw them and stand about a character width away
from them, they immediately do a roundhouse sweep (or whatever). Now all I
have to do is follow that sweep and then throw (I'm working on this...)
This is how they counter that double-throw, but I will get them back once I
get the timing down pat!!!
Brian Odom
Actually, it's encouraged. After throwing, we all smile!! Nothing to get
pissed about, just a game. Usually, we'll say "nice" or "eewww!" or "hey,
that was my throw", but nothing to start a fight over. I don't know about you
guys, but throwing is fun to us!!! Whoever posted the slow boom, short kick,
throw, thanks!!! I really like that one best. There is one unwritten rule
that we have. No one plays Bison. If you play Bison, it's ok, but you get
frowned upon and cheaped upon in a hurry. Highly discouraged for some reason.
We love to throw!!!!
The only thing I REALLY hate is that Zangief player we have. 4jab, crouch
forward, SPD. It's considered "cheap", but not disallowed in any way. Every
thing goes. We didn't design the game, so whatever's in there, is free game.
I guess that's our philosophy. Everywhere I've played SF2, no one said nothing
about not being able to throw at all.
Brian Odom
>ta...@warren1c.its.rpi.edu (Frederick Tang) writes:
>>throwing a blocked player is very cheap
> Ugh! If you don't throw a blocking player, then I guess Chun Li, Zangief,
>E. Honda and Vega are worthless, right? Their main abilities are in their
>throws (I consider the SPD a throw---although I'm thinking of starting to
>call the SPD the "Vortex" or "Black Hole"---after all, look at that REACH on
>that baby :&) )---so that's like saying they can do NOTHING to a blocked
>opponent.
Yeah, how do you expect a Zangief to do damage if you block all day and he
can't throw??? If someone's in my throwing range, I will throw! Because they
can throw me too, so it's a race to the throw. That's why it's not cheap.
It would be cheap if the blocker couldn't do anything, but he can throw too!!
So, what's cheap about it??? If you don't have the reflexes, then you need to
practice. If a player gets that close to you, it should be his right to throw.
But, you can counter it.... that's what makes it fun.
Brian Odom
>ta...@warren1c.its.rpi.edu (Frederick Tang) writes:
>>In response to Brian Odom's throwing after opponent gets up:
>>Don't people in your school have rules against
>>playing cheap
>>throwing a blocked player is very cheap
>Jeez... I'm not even gonna bother arguing about your "ethics"
>Anyways, if you're talking about the 'no-tick tick', the opponent
>isn't blocking...
I'm a little confused about this 'no-tick tick'. Let me see if I get this
straight.
Throw opponent (or knock him down)
charge for sonic boom
fake it, then throw again.
Hey, I like that one. Gee, how come I couldn't think of that. Gotta add this
one to my arsenal. I do a lot of fake sonic booms, but not to a fallen
opponent, since throwing one will do an extra tick of damage. hmmmm, I gotta
try this one out!! sounds pretty nasty!!!
Don't you love faking sonic booms to make someone jump? I sometimes fake
myself out!! Still having problems with Ryu now that everyone can FB trap me!!
Argh!! I hate fighting Ryu with Guile. I can't get close, nor can I keep up
with the projectile war. They trap me in the middle of the screen!!!
That damn DP. shit. Ryu's recovery time is just a bit quick for me.
Joseph Zell
Then, instead of doing a roundhouse sweep, they need to do short or medium kicks
repeatedly so that they can recover and hit you before you get in far enough to
do the throw. SO you'll have to come up with something else. Don't you just love
SF? :)
Joe
--
Joe Zell * "Never fear, Duncan. Good will overcome.
ze...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu * Trust in that.."
* -Sir Locksley, *Robin Hood, Prince of Theives*
Alex V. Lebedev
OH, SHUT UP!
*
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???- _____ -???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Philip John Stroffolino
"experiment" conditions:
all experiments were done in the first round as follows:
one person holds the joysticks in a position so that the characters are
walking in place into each other (touching)
I pressed both both throw buttons at the same time, and noted what happened.
1. button used for throw attempts were mixed up (strong/fierce, etc.)
2. relative side of players was alternated
3. my handedness was alternated in the more recent experiments (good
idea, Ming)
Previous:
When I started experimenting, I predicted (incorrectly) that either
significant simultaneous button presses would not occur, or simultaneous
throw attempts would result in no throw.
- a player#1 Ken *gets the throw vs. player#2 Zangief
*Zangief did get the throw twice out of two rounds worth of throwing
I believe the two times Zangief got the throw were influenced by my
subconscious - I was in a state of disbelief while watching Ken
repeatedly throw Zangief around like a rag doll.
this first experiment was done on a Hong Kong version of SF2 TCE. All
others were done on SF2 HF
- a player#1 Chun Li gets the throw vs. player#2 Sagat
Chun Li got the throw every time. I experimented 3 times with player#1
on the left and 3 times with player#1 on the right.
Recent (today):
- a player#1 Chun Li gets the throw vs. player#2 M. Bison
Chun Li got the throw every time. I experimented 3 times with player#1
on the left and 3 times with player#1 on the right.
- a player#1 Balrog gets the throw vs. player#2 Balrog
The player#1 Balrog got the throw (grab) every time. I experimented for
two rounds worth of grabbing. This surprised me, as I was leaning
towards a throw-priority-for-each-character point of view explanation.
player#1 Sagat gets the throw vs. player#2 Chun Li
The player#1 Sagat got the throw every time. I experimented for one
round worth of throws (until Chun Li died). This indicated that Chun Li
does not "always" get the throw against Sagat in the event of
simultaneous (as percieved by a human) throw attempts - the determining
factor seems to be who is player#1;
a throw-priority-for-each-character point of view explanation is
definitely not sufficient to explain the observed effects.
conclusions:
1. I believe in the event of simultaneous button presses, the throw is
arbitrarily given to player#1. Who knows, though, there may be some
other not so obvious factors involved.
2. Any notion of throw "priority" for specific characters is limited to
throw range. The results do not suggest that any character has any
throwing advantage when they are both "ready" and adjacent.
Both of the above statements are consistant with my "tests." If some
fool wants to believe otherwise, rest assured that I do not care, unless
you can provide me with some hard data indicating that my results were a
fluke (the equivalent of flipping heads 20 times in a row).
For all my purposes, I am done experimenting. For my "clone" of SF2,
I'll only be scanning inputs from the player (or players) once each
"game tick" - each pass will read input (or determine computer's choice
of action), check for character interaction, and update the screen.
This is the standard I have used in all my micro-computer programming,
and it works for me. I'll probably resolve "simultaneous" inputs for
throws randomly (to be fair to player#2) or have the result be a
"no-throw" (less luck).
BTW, if anyone wants to talk about processer speed and its relationship
to input scanning in a event loop for a video game, or compare SF2 to
Track and Field, go right ahead :)
The fact remains, so far as I know, I am the only one to attempt such an
experiment, and from the amount of talk as opposed to experimentation,
probably the last :)
I simply do not have the time nor the money to spend on convincing
certain people that my results are significant.
Perhaps if someone wires two throw buttons together as has been
suggested, they will verify or disprove my results for once and for
all... but maybe some fool will complain that they can attach no
credibility to any such results because they didn't take into account
the possible difference in travel time of the electrons in the wires
which will surely be of slightly different lengths. Or maybe someone
will say that it is impossible from a philosopher's standpoint to prove
anything beyond a shadow of a doubt with empiricle evidence alone...
end of story
- Phil
Philip John Stroffolino
separately for the three punch buttons and three kick buttons.
Example: you can charge up for a TAP by holding all six buttons and
release a round 4 followed by another round 4. One possible use would
be to use three of the punch buttons to TAP through missle attacks when
you are far away while maintaining a round 5 TAP on the kick buttons
(for later devestation)... clumsy, but potentially very effective.
Chun Li and Dhalsim's fireballs are much easier to TAP through than
Ken/Ryu/Guile's wider missle attacks.
Nice Balrog combo: jump punch, ducking strong, charging strong punch
A charging jab will hit anyone who misses a sweep at mid range as they retract.
<Compared to TCE> Not only has the attack region of Balrog's charging
high punches been extended (lower to hit ducking opponents), but the
attack region of Balrog's TAP has been extended (higher to "hit" in air
opponents).
--- end of Balrog HF stuff ---
Chun Li can now hit M. Bison out of his flame torpedo even more easily
with a flying forward. He can be all the way under her and she still
nails him without getting hurt.
M. Bison's flame, although weaker, is definitely faster (taking into
consideration the speed increase of TCE to HF, of course).
later,
- Phil
Thomas Calvin Cannon
Against people with a clue and 1/2 (approaching masterhood) this will work
0-5% of the time. If a master sees you lurking around his prone body, he's
not going to do anything as silly as sweep. With the right character, he'll
jab DP, sonic boom, or whatever to keep you from throwing. If you hang back
and wait for him to panic (with the intent of suckering them into a move)
he can just jump back...end of scenario
---
T. Cannon
Scott D Bradburn
switching hands is a good idea, but since humans are wired so strangely,
that may just reverse which hand is faster then the other consistantly.
Your results seem to indicate player 1 is biased from player 2. How
many data points do you have in any one set of experaments? And how
many with hands in position X and in position Y? You can ignore the
musings on how SF2 is wired/constructed, but my recent post on statistical
significance is relevant. If you provide me with your data points
on a table containing:
Player 1 character, Player 2 character, hand position, who won the throw,
which side of the game, etc.
for each trial, I would gladly run it through tests of statistical
significance and see if your results actually prove something significant
or not.
from ps...@andrew.cmu.edu (Philip John Stroffolino):
|> Again, if anyone doubts the results or my conclusion in "throw
|> experiment pt2", try it yourself. If you brush aside my "findings" as
|> not being significant or scientific, so be it, but if you claim that the
|> experiment is not worth your time to verify, yet you take the time to
|> comment derisively, you are not worth a reply in the future, IMO.
Note: I didn't post any personally derisive stuff. I did deride the
results, try to separate yourself from criticism on your experaments.
Rarely are experaments performed to satisfy everyone, just counter their
criticisms or re-construct your experament. And trust me, if I want to
deride you, you'll know it. Arguing opinions test results should not
be taken personally, as long as both parties remain rational.
I did mention, that if I were to perform tests, I would do it in a more
controlled environment. Until I get that environment, I will refrain from
testing myself. But I will continue to comment on the validity of the
experaments. If you want to disregard them, that is your perogative. And
will remain rational, with relevant arguments, and avoid calling you or
your mother any derisive names.
[response to another post, just added in for the fun]
And button_was_pressed isn't very good since order matters, you'd also
have to time-mark or order the presses and joystick angles, then it starts
to get into the realm of more work should be necessary.
WEST JASON BRUCE
(all comments conern HF - since that is the true SF right now)
* Strong v Fierce throwing/holds:
Fierce throws have longer range than strong throws.
Fierce holds do more damage on most characters.
"Priority" is a misnomer from hell - stop using the damn term.
There is no difference in fierce/strong "priority" - the differences come
from range and timing (which is different for each).
* Throwing the fallen opponent - or "double throwing".
The fallen opponent has a sac throw with extended range at his disposal.
Thus the you would need to be outside his extended range not to get thrown.
Needless to say if you are outside his extended range when he stands he
can easily get away with the method of his choice. Jump away, walk away,
whatever. If you appoach he can simply counter-throw. Stupid concept tp
catch newbies.
* To sum up:
Throws have different speeds (ala character), different ranges (ala button
and character), and different timing (ala character and button). You will
win the throw when:
1) opponent is in your range.
2) you are within proper timing.
3) your throw comes off first.
If anything, I would say "priority" is truly throw speed. ie. in case of
tie the quickest throwing character wins.
Ciao...
- Jason
Clifford T. Tanaka
fierce throws. Maybe there is, but when I was practicing Vega's aerial
throw against Chun Li on CE, 5 consecutive aerial throws would take Chun
Li down to zero energy from full energy regardless of whether you used
all strong aerial throws or if you mixed in some fierce aerial throws.
Cliff.
Clifford T. Tanaka
analysis just to show if prority exists or not (SF2 is just a game after
all, really, John, Lui, it is :-)) If one side wins EVERY time as was
found by the experimenter even over a limited number of trials, say ten
or so, I think it's pretty clear that the sides are NOT equivalent. To
correct for the possibility of handedness in humans, have someone of the
opposite handedness do it or just switch hands. Perhaps the result is
machine dependent - then do it on another machine. Simple. We're not
talking about a difference of 60% vs. 40 % which can be explained by
statistical fluctuations, but a difference of 100% for player 1 vs. 0 %
for player 2 regardless of the combination of characters. What's the
probability of that if both sides are equivalent, say for a mere 10
trials? That's 1/1024 which is less than 0.1 %. Good enough for me,
I'd say. I admit that if you want to test if player 1 has priority over
player 2, it would be more accurate to use two of the same characters,
but the experimenter did try Balrog vs. Balrog, and also tested both
Chun Li vs. Sagat and Sagat vs. Chun Li (switching controllers).
Cliff.
Brian Odom
>Some thoughts on much of the stuff concerning throws being put out right now:
>(all comments conern HF - since that is the true SF right now)
>* Strong v Fierce throwing/holds:
> Fierce throws have longer range than strong throws.
> Fierce holds do more damage on most characters.
> "Priority" is a misnomer from hell - stop using the damn term.
> There is no difference in fierce/strong "priority" - the differences come
> from range and timing (which is different for each).
I disagree. I think fierce does less damage and has less range than strong.
What do you mean exactly by timing? The range I can understand, but how is
timing different for each throw? I thought it depends on when you press the
button?
>* Throwing the fallen opponent - or "double throwing".
> The fallen opponent has a sac throw with extended range at his disposal.
> Thus the you would need to be outside his extended range not to get thrown.
> Needless to say if you are outside his extended range when he stands he
> can easily get away with the method of his choice. Jump away, walk away,
> whatever. If you appoach he can simply counter-throw. Stupid concept tp
> catch newbies.
Yes, the opponent has an extended range, but if you stand just outside it, then
the double throw can be fun against newbies. He can't "easily" get away, if
you're quick enough. Not really stupid.
>* To sum up:
> Throws have different speeds (ala character), different ranges (ala button
> and character), and different timing (ala character and button). You will
> win the throw when:
> 1) opponent is in your range.
> 2) you are within proper timing.
> 3) your throw comes off first.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
why state the obvious??
> If anything, I would say "priority" is truly throw speed. ie. in case of
> tie the quickest throwing character wins.
>Ciao...
adios
John Nishinaga
ink...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Calvin Cannon) writes:
>In article <C2r2p...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> bo...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
>(Brian Odom) writes:
>
>>To a newbie, yes. Against people with clue, only about 0-10% of the time.
>>from them, they immediately do a roundhouse sweep (or whatever). Now all I
>>have to do is follow that sweep and then throw (I'm working on this...) This
>>is how they counter that double-throw, but I will get them back once I get
>>the timing down pat!!!
>
>Against people with a clue and 1/2 (approaching masterhood) this will work
>0-5% of the time. If a master sees you lurking around his prone body, he's
>not going to do anything as silly as sweep. With the right character, he'll
>jab DP, sonic boom, or whatever to keep you from throwing. If you hang back
>and wait for him to panic (with the intent of suckering them into a move) he
>can just jump back...end of scenario
about immedietely throwing as they get up -- it looks like the guy who's
getting up is reverse throwing but he's the one getting thrown! I've done this
a couple times by sheer accident (I don't know how I did it).
WEST JASON BRUCE
>In <1993Feb21.2...@mercury.unt.edu> j...@ponder.csci.unt.edu (WEST JASON BRUCE) writes:
>
>>Some thoughts on much of the stuff concerning throws being put out right now:
>>(all comments conern HF - since that is the true SF right now)
>
>>* Strong v Fierce throwing/holds:
>> Fierce throws have longer range than strong throws.
>> Fierce holds do more damage on most characters.
>> "Priority" is a misnomer from hell - stop using the damn term.
>> There is no difference in fierce/strong "priority" - the differences come
>> from range and timing (which is different for each).
>
>I disagree. I think fierce does less damage and has less range than strong.
>What do you mean exactly by timing? The range I can understand, but how is
>timing different for each throw? I thought it depends on when you press the
>button?
Timing = "when you hit the button." I figured that was pretty much
understood.
>
>>* Throwing the fallen opponent - or "double throwing".
>> The fallen opponent has a sac throw with extended range at his disposal.
>> Thus the you would need to be outside his extended range not to get thrown.
>> Needless to say if you are outside his extended range when he stands he
>> can easily get away with the method of his choice. Jump away, walk away,
>> whatever. If you appoach he can simply counter-throw. Stupid concept tp
>> catch newbies.
>
>Yes, the opponent has an extended range, but if you stand just outside it, then
>the double throw can be fun against newbies. He can't "easily" get away, if
>you're quick enough. Not really stupid.
There a lot more fun things to do against newbies - double throwing is
rather worthless.
>>* To sum up:
>> Throws have different speeds (ala character), different ranges (ala button
>> and character), and different timing (ala character and button). You will
>> win the throw when:
>> 1) opponent is in your range.
>> 2) you are within proper timing.
>> 3) your throw comes off first.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>why state the obvious??
That means SPEED OF THROW. ie, if 1 and 2 are true for both characters, the
speed of your character's throw makes the difference. The first one to finish
the motion gets the throw off. [ie. havm't you been half way throwing someone
and then get tossed?]
Tim Morris
>Don't people in your school have rules against
>playing cheap
>throwing a blocked player is very cheap
You are Zangief. You have half your energy left. Your opponent is Ken. He
has all his energy left. The Ken player is resting on the joystick with his
elbow, blocking, while he manicures his nails and the clock runs down.
What do you, as a no-thrower, do in this situation? Just curious.
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Tim Morris | "If love is blind I guess I'll buy myself a cane..." - GnR. |
+--------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Lord Vader
>ta...@warren1c.its.rpi.edu (Frederick Tang) writes:
>>Don't people in your school have rules against
>>playing cheap
>>throwing a blocked player is very cheap
>You are Zangief. You have half your energy left. Your opponent is Ken. He
>has all his energy left. The Ken player is resting on the joystick with his
>elbow, blocking, while he manicures his nails and the clock runs down.
>What do you, as a no-thrower, do in this situation? Just curious.
** You'd better change the rules of your school _quick_! Really, if he
is just going to wait there, walk up and SPD. That is if he just sits there...
He can't whine about that! It's usually 'cheaper', mind you, to sit on
your ass for a whole minute while the other guy if flailing, especially if
it is a no throw area. I've heard of places like this: BORING! Usually
happens this way... One player get a comfortable lead, or puts themslef
in a position as to not be harmed, and lets the timer run out.
I don't do that crap unless the timer is about to run out (ie <10 sec remain).
Then it becomes more lame, but hey, if I worked it that far, I hate to lose
it in the last few seconds. I wish that the timer counted from 150 or 200.
--
Caine Schneider
ca...@uiuc.edu
Tim Morris
>>>* Strong v Fierce throwing/holds:
>>> Fierce throws have longer range than strong throws.
>>> Fierce holds do more damage on most characters.
I gather from this that strong throws are generally worthless.
>>> "Priority" is a misnomer from hell - stop using the damn term.
>>> There is no difference in fierce/strong "priority" - the differences come
>>> from range and timing (which is different for each).
>>
>>What do you mean exactly by timing? The range I can understand, but how is
>>timing different for each throw? I thought it depends on when you press the
>>button?
> Timing = "when you hit the button." I figured that was pretty much
>understood.
The way I see it, there are only several instances where you can't throw:
1. You are "block stunned" (in the process of being pushed back by an
attack).
2. You are recovering from a hit.
3. You or your opponent isn't on the ground.
4. Your opponent is out of your throwing range.
5. Your opponent is recovering from block stun.
Please explain the additional "timing differences" between strong and fierce.
As far as I'm concerned, if the above requirements are satisfied (you know
what I mean), you can throw.
Lee Eu-Ming
> That means SPEED OF THROW. ie, if 1 and 2 are true for both characters, the
>speed of your character's throw makes the difference. The first one to finish
>the motion gets the throw off. [ie. havm't you been half way throwing someone
>and then get tossed?]
I've never been thrown half way through a throw. I have been thrown out
of normal moves, but never EVER out of a throw. This just lends more
support to the fact that 'throw speed' is bullshit.
Ilphay
>
>I've never been thrown half way through a throw. I have been thrown out
>of normal moves, but never EVER out of a throw. This just lends more
>support to the fact that 'throw speed' is bullshit.
>
>--
>Eu-Ming Lee (aka CyberGeek) eum...@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
>"Error - Keyboard not detected. Press F1 to continue."
> - From the wisdom of DOS 5.0
As I once said before "I guess I can name one person who hasn't matched
up against very many Dhalsim-ers" (this quote dates back to SF2:Classic)
Back in those days, we use to call throw speed "priority".
Which now in the days of CE and HF, doesn't carry as much meaning
since some algorithms were appearantly written to deter cheezing.
Even the difference between CE and HF, check out Bison's Cheezepedo
now...worthless(practically)! But I digress.
It is a FACT that in SF2:Classic, Ken's shoulder throw is "quicker"
than his stomach throw while stomach throw has more power. While
one Ryu, Ryu's stomach throw is quicker while his shoulder throw
does more damage (relative to the individual's throw's, not each
others). And let me jog you're memory about Dhalsim and Zangief's
throws (crouch-throws for Zang) Those throws were so fast, the
only real hope to win against someone who cheezed with those was to
somehow trick the opponent (ie, block twice-getting thrown, then take a hit to
mess up their timing).
I was also under the impression that if you pointed the joystick
towards the opponent when throwing, you got better speed, while
away, you got better reach although I have nothing conclusive to
base this on. But by now, you must all see the differences in reach.
namely Zangief's God's-reach on that SPD.
Anyway, I think a reasonable conclusion for CE counter throwing is
throws pointed towards opponent while in a block (getting ticked)
have extra speed; while going through the motion of a throw
against someone in a block stance has more stringent reach
requirements (ie. you have to be closer) and of course everyone
knows the deal about getting up vs trying to throw somoeone while
they're getting up. I'm not very sure about HF.
>
And the Keyboard error is a hardware error which takes place before
DOS of any version is loaded...BUD!