What's the deal with SID's and STAR's?

[Peter Greenstein]

Not being a RW pilot, let me ask those in the know whether SID's and STAR's
are always to be used?

For example, does every 737 flight out of my Oakland Airport, KOAK, use one
of the SID's? Would every GA (General Aviation) aircraft taking off from
such an airport need to follow one of these sequences? Or can you just tell
the tower that you're going to Monterey, take off and set your gps? I
imagine you can do this at small, quiet airports. Does an airport like
Livermore (KLVK) qualify as one of those?

Oh yes, a Happy Thanksgiving to all!

--
Peter Greenstein
http://www.wakefieldjazz.com




--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to ne...@netfront.net ---

[Walt_M]

On Fri, 25 Nov 2011 11:08:39 -0800, "Peter Greenstein"
<pgre...@comcast.net> wrote:

>Not being a RW pilot, let me ask those in the know whether SID's and STAR's
>are always to be used?
>
>For example, does every 737 flight out of my Oakland Airport, KOAK, use one
>of the SID's? Would every GA (General Aviation) aircraft taking off from
>such an airport need to follow one of these sequences? Or can you just tell
>the tower that you're going to Monterey, take off and set your gps? I
>imagine you can do this at small, quiet airports. Does an airport like
>Livermore (KLVK) qualify as one of those?

I am an even more uninformed non-RW pilot. I don't even know what
SIDs and STARs are. I assume its some nav thing. Since that level
of nav reality is not something I crave for, I think it's appropriate
that I remain blissfully ignorant. :-)

Also, I mostly just do T/O and landing circuits as that's what
interests me most. Long flights in straight lines with the occasional
change in direction is, for me, up there with watching grass grow.
:-(

>Oh yes, a Happy Thanksgiving to all!

And right back atcha, Peter. :-)


Walt
* * *
Offence freely given to those who wish to take it.

[NM5K]

On 11/25/2011 1:08 PM, Peter Greenstein wrote:
> Not being a RW pilot, let me ask those in the know whether SID's and
> STAR's are always to be used?
>
> For example, does every 737 flight out of my Oakland Airport, KOAK, use
> one of the SID's? Would every GA (General Aviation) aircraft taking off
> from such an airport need to follow one of these sequences? Or can you
> just tell the tower that you're going to Monterey, take off and set your
> gps? I imagine you can do this at small, quiet airports. Does an airport
> like Livermore (KLVK) qualify as one of those?
>
> Oh yes, a Happy Thanksgiving to all!
>

I'm not a real world pilot, so anything I say should be taken
with a shaker of salt.. If the GA aircraft were flying IFR,
most of the time they would likely file using SIDS/STARS.
But I don't think it's required. I believe you can plan and
file any path you want, as long as you aren't breaking any
restrictions in the route or altitude per a given controlled
air space. But most will likely plan the standard departures
if they exist.

The jets pretty much always file using SIDS/STARS.
So yes, pretty much every 737 out of Oakland is using a
SID. And they use a STAR for the approach, even though it's
quite possible they will deviate from it due to ATC vectors,
weather, etc.
Fer instance, when I fly from Houston Hobby to Dallas Love,
I use the same SIDS/STARS every time. A CRIED4 departure,
and a DUMPY3 arrival into Dallas Love.
The plan is entered into the FMC using those SIDS/STARS
which are in the FMC database. I can see all this drawn
out on the ND as I plan the route. Once I get clear of
the airport, I'll usually run LNAV/VNAV modes, and the
plane will fly that SID automatically, while also
controlling my speeds. IE: it will run 250 knots until
10,000 feet, where the nose will pitch down a tad and
it will go to the IAS climb speed, which will vary to
the cost index I entered when filing the route in the FMC.
It's usually around 300 knots or so, where it will merge
to the mach speed around 29-30,000 or so, plus or minus,
depending on the CI speeds. The higher the cost index,
the faster the IAS speed, and the alt you will merge
with the mach speed will be slightly lower in general.
So anyway, yes, every Southwest jet that runs that route
uses the same planned SID/STARS every time. They may
deviate from that path for whatever reason, but that's
the one they file and usually fly every time.
On that route, I plan to cruise at FL300. "30,000 ft"

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA454

Like I say, anything I say should be taken with a
shaker of salt.. :/ Maybe some other RW pilots will
chime in..

[Danny]

SIDS AND STARS are essentially a standardized plan for departing or arriving
at the larger airports. Similar to the lines that form at theme parks such
as Disney World, Six Flags etc. It lets the pilots and ATC have some
organization to departing/arriving flights, rather than just take off and
fly in any direction and across any other planes intended path that you
want.








"Peter Greenstein" wrote in message
news:jaop2h$g5c$1...@adenine.netfront.net...

[Peter Greenstein]

OK, NM, you lost me half way thru.

What is the "FMC" where you enter your plan? Part of FSX (or FS9)? And what
is the "ND" and what or where are you running "LNAV/LNAV modes"? Is this all
part of flight control software?

peter



"NM5K" <no...@invalid.net> wrote in message
news:jap32c$hhb$1...@dont-email.me...

[NM5K]

On 11/25/2011 11:33 PM, Peter Greenstein wrote:
> OK, NM, you lost me half way thru.
>
> What is the "FMC" where you enter your plan? Part of FSX (or FS9)? And
> what is the "ND" and what or where are you running "LNAV/LNAV modes"? Is
> this all part of flight control software?
>
> peter

The FMC is the flight management computer. On the 737NG,
it's down in the floor under the seats somewhere..
The part on the panel that looks like a calculator with
a TV screen is how you enter the data. It's called the CDU.
"control display unit"
The stock FSX planes do not include this critter. You
have to use third party aircraft to have that. Or maybe
get a third party stand alone FMC program..
The stock FSX 737 does show the CDU, but nothing works..

The ND is the navigation display. If you are flying the
stock FSX 737, that is the display to the right of the
PFD, or primary flight display.
I'm running the PMDG 737 NGX. It's much more realistic
than the stock FSX 737NG. The real plane has the LNAV/VNAV
modes, but the stock FSX version doesn't.
The closest you can get to LNAV is by having a flight loaded,
and then use the GPS with NAV enabled. But that's not realistic
to the real world. There is also no VNAV in the stock FSX 737.
Only auto throttle speed hold. You have to do your own
vertical navigation. The FSX 737 cockpit is not too realistic
in many ways. :( I was more than happy to fire it when the NGX
came out. :|
With the PMDG 737 I'm running, everything in the cockpit is
probably 99.14% close to real life. You use the Boeing FCOM,
etc to fly the thing, which were included in PDF format.

http://www.flyaoamedia.com/aoa/nicks-737ngx-cockpit-thoughts/

[guyo]

In some airports with very high traffic intensity (KORD. EGLL, EHAM, EDDF
and so on) the ATC may give to each plane arriving and
departing a different way in or out at its discretion instead of a SID
(Standard Instrumental Departure) oa STAR (Standard Arrival
procedure).

[Peter Greenstein]

OK NM, I follow you now.

Thanks for the link. Yes, the video of the NGX is impressive. I did follow
somewhat the recent discussion of these products and may take the plunge.

I must admit that so far I have tried to follow the navigation routes, SID's
etc. manually. Not realistically for today's flying, but perhaps something
like what was common in the past. Also perhaps reflecting what would happen
if re-directed?

Still, it would be nice to have the FMC option. This is too bad. Personally,
other than using gps to "D-Waypoint" flight, I don't use FSX's flight
direction. Apparently you say FSX will send the plane to the correct
locations. That's done by saving/filing an IFR flight plan? Would FSX handle
some SID's or STAR's or are the intersections not in its database? I see the
complete route (including selected STAR/SID) in Flight Commander but haven't
tried sticking it into any flight director software.

Yes, I do like a certain amount of realism in FS, though completely
automating a flight ("wire-to-wire") is also starting to take away some of
the fun and challenge. It's certainly safer, more accurate, though Walt has
a point about watching grass grow!

--
Peter Greenstein
http://www.wakefieldjazz.com

"NM5K" <no...@invalid.net> wrote in message

news:jaq20c$b0h$1...@dont-email.me...

[Dallas]

"Peter Greenstein" <pgre...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Would every GA (General Aviation) aircraft taking off from such an
> airport need to follow one of these sequences?

That might be hard given that most GA pilots don't have an instrument
rating and if you said STAR many wouldn't know what you were talking
about.

GA taking off into Bravo airspace are assigned an altitude and heading.
ATC will vector you around to get you out of Bravo without hitting
something. For the controller, it's a bit like playing Pac-Man with your
aircraft.

(Disclaimer: I don't have an instrument rating so I could be wrong about
what I'm saying from here on.)

All commercial flights fly IFR 100% of the time. You don't file a SID or
STAR in an IFR flight plan, you contact departure on the ground and they
will give you your SID while you're rolling towards your assigned runway.
Same situation with arrivals, you contact approach control and they'll feed
you your intersections and STAR.

This make sense if you think about it, THEY are the ones responsible for
separation. How could you know in advance what's going on in the airspace.


--
Dallas

[Walt_M]

NOW we're talkin'... :-)

[Dallas]

Peter Greenstein wrote:

> Or can you just tell the tower that you're going to Monterey, take
> off and set your gps? I imagine you can do this at small, quiet
> airports. Does an airport like Livermore (KLVK) qualify as one of
> those?

Every airport is in some kind of airspace: B,C,D,E,G.
Notice the colors and marking on a Sectional Chart, they indicate what
airspace the airport is in.
The classification of the airport is made by the airspace it's in..
i.e. Class C = Class C Airport.
Each airport class has different operational rules.

Livermore (KLVK) for instance is a Class D airport outside the rings of
KSFO's Bravo airspace. This is a pretty simple airport to use... Yes,
you tell the tower that you want a southwest departure (they don't care
where you are going). You stay on the tower frequency until you report
to them that you are clear of their airspace. (They are not required
to have radar so you have to tell them where you are in relation to the
tower while you are in their airspace.)

Becoming proficient in airspace is one of the big challenges of getting
a PPL because it's 1) complicated and 2) you have to know it back and
forth, period.

--
Dallas

[202.177.16.121]

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1553742586344023904.907465Cy...@news.east.earthlink.net...

>> All commercial flights fly IFR 100% of the time. You don't file a SID or
> STAR in an IFR flight plan, you contact departure on the ground and they
> will give you your SID while you're rolling towards your assigned runway.
> Same situation with arrivals, you contact approach control and they'll
> feed
> you your intersections and STAR.
>
> This make sense if you think about it, THEY are the ones responsible for
> separation. How could you know in advance what's going on in the
> airspace.
>
>
> --
> Dallas

Yes, and they do a great job. Just like John Cusak Billy Bob Thornton in
"Pushing Tin", dropping us all in like billiard balls.

Thanks for this, Dallas.


--
Peter Greenstein
http://wakefieldjazz.com/

[NM5K]

On 11/26/2011 10:30 AM, Peter Greenstein wrote:

>
> Yes, I do like a certain amount of realism in FS, though completely
> automating a flight ("wire-to-wire") is also starting to take away some
> of the fun and challenge. It's certainly safer, more accurate, though
> Walt has a point about watching grass grow!
>
>

Most flights I run use a combination of the various
systems. I rarely run the whole flight start to stop
automated. Approaches in particular mix it all up.
With the ATC I'm using, I almost never get to do an
automated LNAV/VNAV approach.
With the 737 NGX, the chance of watching grass grow
is about the same as in the real plane.. Even if
running auto flight, you gotta know the systems if
you don't want to get behind the aircraft as it
goes through the motions. I always try to stay ahead
of it a few clicks, and that limits the time available
for grass cultivation. :) The 737NG is a pretty slippery
airplane, and it takes some pretty good power
management skills to get that puppy slowed down and
on the numbers for the approach and landing in many
cases. So it's not quite as plug and play as some
might think.

[Iain Smith]

On 26/11/2011 16:30, Peter Greenstein wrote:
> OK NM, I follow you now.
>
> Thanks for the link. Yes, the video of the NGX is impressive. I did
> follow somewhat the recent discussion of these products and may take
> the plunge.
>
> I must admit that so far I have tried to follow the navigation routes,
> SID's etc. manually. Not realistically for today's flying, but perhaps
> something like what was common in the past. Also perhaps reflecting
> what would happen if re-directed?
>
> Still, it would be nice to have the FMC option. This is too bad.
> Personally, other than using gps to "D-Waypoint" flight, I don't use
> FSX's flight direction. Apparently you say FSX will send the plane to
> the correct locations. That's done by saving/filing an IFR flight
> plan? Would FSX handle some SID's or STAR's or are the intersections
> not in its database? I see the complete route (including selected
> STAR/SID) in Flight Commander but haven't tried sticking it into any
> flight director software.
>
> Yes, I do like a certain amount of realism in FS, though completely
> automating a flight ("wire-to-wire") is also starting to take away
> some of the fun and challenge. It's certainly safer, more accurate,
> though Walt has a point about watching grass grow!
>
>

Although not a RW pilot, if I can chip in here with a clarification. NM
has mentioned the two modes that the FMC uses, LNAV and VNAV. I found it
helpful to know what they stand for.

LNAV is lateral navigation - i.e. the a/craft follows the direction that
the route takes.

VNAV is vertical navigation - the a/craft reaches certain altitudes (and
speeds) at certain points along the route, these all being calculated by
the FMC.

I hope this helps.

Iain
Rugby, UK

[Copter_Six]

On 11/25/2011 4:14 PM, Danny wrote:
> SIDS AND STARS are essentially a standardized plan for departing or
> arriving at the larger airports. Similar to the lines that form at theme
> parks such as Disney World, Six Flags etc. It lets the pilots and ATC
> have some organization to departing/arriving flights, rather than just
> take off and fly in any direction and across any other planes intended
> path that you want.
>
>
>
>

I'm no expert .... I flew mainly NOE.



--


Copter Six
*Psychopath: A Journey Through the Madness*
=================================================
>Hopefully, you haven't ignited another flame war.

Que sera, sera...

[Dallas]

Copter_Six <c...@texas.com> wrote:

> I'm no expert .... I flew mainly NOE.

Ok... I'll bite... What's NOE?



--
Dallas

[John Ward]

Nap of the earth?

JW

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:985152269344154748.290333Cyb...@news.east.earthlink.net...

[Copter_Six]

ding ding ding .... John gets the prize..........

Tree top level or below.

--


Copter Six
*Psychopath: A Journey Through the Madness*
=================================================
>Hopefully, you haven't ignited another flame war.

Que sera, sera...

walnut war cry
______________
/ \
| WHAAAAAAAAAAA! |
\__ _________/
/ ,'
_.~._ /,'
,~'.~@~.`~.
/ : _..._ : \
{ :,"''\\`".: }
`C) 0 _ 0 (--.._,-"""-.__
( ) @ ( ) `.
`-.-_-.-' \
,' \ / ,` ;`-._,-.
,' ,'/ ,' `---t.,-. \_
,--.,',' ,'----.__\ _( \----'
'///,`,--.,' `-.__.--' `. )
'///,' `-`

[Dallas]

Copter_Six wrote:

> ding ding ding .... John gets the prize..........
>
> Tree top level or below.

Yah, I bet he Googled it...

:-p

--
Dallas

[John Ward]

Hi Varmit,

Nope.

I first heard the term when I used to work at Flying Fighters out at
Archerfield. I used to take every opportunity to talk to any pilots, just on
the off chance i might learn a few things.

I've also heard the term in connection with my work as part of the mob
setting up Brisbane's first Aviation Museum, in Hangar 7 out at Eagle Farm.
Hangar 7 is Heritage Listed since it was the one the Allies used as a base
for comparative testing against captured/rebuilt Japanese aircraft during
WWII, while MacArthur was Headquartered here in Brisbane. Amongst other
things, we've secured an F-111 for the Museum.

There's no US Consulate in Brisbane, so four times a year they come up
from Sydney and use the MacArthur Museum premises to do their stuff.

The Australia America Association also use our premises at the MacArthur
Museum regularly.

http://www.americanaustralian.org/

Probably due to the above two connections, whenever a US Navy vessel
comes to Brisbane, all the MacArthur Museum staff get invited out for a
tour - so far, I've been on three carriers and one submarine, plus some
smaller vessels.

I'm Vice President in at the Douglas MacArthur Museum, and I always take
any opportunity to talk to any pilots, just on the off chance I might learn
a few things.

We have our monthly meetings of the Aviation Historical Society of
Australia out at the Royal Aero Club at Archerfield, and one of the regulars
used to fly combat missions in P-51s during the Korean war. I got lucky a
couple of years ago when he invited me over to his home and spent the best
part of a day showing me all his personal memorabilia, and talking about his
whole career. I took every opportunity to ask a few questions, just on the
off chance I might learn a few things.

I've also seen the term in some of the Warbird magazines I've subscribed
to for a few years now.

:-))

Regards,
John Ward

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:ebCdnYPW67CYM07T...@earthlink.com...

[Danny]

That is good thinking, John Ward. It lets me know...I need to talk to more
people, in the off chance they could learn something! :-)

Danny






"John Ward" wrote in message news:4ed3e3de$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

[Dallas]

John Ward wrote:

> I'm Vice President in at the Douglas MacArthur Museum,

Whoa... cool... I didn't realize you'd been promoted to executive.


--
Dallas