Where is it????!!!!!!
Kj4jane
the sun? Do we just have to keep playing Rubicon & all those others until the
cow's come home? TC19, wake up! Thomas Reed, where is the Dissent followup?
And what the hell is happening with RTM? And and and,
sigh.....................
jane/JD
Harry Al-Shakarchi
kj4...@aol.com (Kj4jane) wrote:
Soon. :)
--
Harry Al-Shakarchi | tomeone [at] bungie [dot] org | http://oni.bungie.org/
Starscream: "Megatron is a wimp!"
Devastator: "So is Starscream!"
Starscream: "Yes, but I'm fast!!"
jancheta
kj4...@aol.com wrote on 06/15/01 7:18 PM:
relax...just do what i do and check the Scenario News page every 5 mins. 8)
pity about what happened to the Battle Mage project...
--
justin.
"I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something
about human nature that the only form of life we have created so far is
purely destructive. We've created life in our own image."
"To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human
spirit."
-Stephen Hawking
jancheta
Al-Shakarchi at tom...@bungee.org wrote on 06/15/01 7:58 PM:
> In article <20010615191830...@ng-cj1.aol.com>,
> kj4...@aol.com (Kj4jane) wrote:
>
>> So bored, I am so bored! Who's working on what? Is there anything new under
>> the sun? Do we just have to keep playing Rubicon & all those others until
>> the
>> cow's come home? TC19, wake up! Thomas Reed, where is the Dissent followup?
>> And what the hell is happening with RTM? And and and,
>> sigh.....................
>>
>> jane/JD
>
> Soon. :)
"Soon " referring to what?
Harry Al-Shakarchi
jancheta <janc...@sprint.ca> wrote:
> in article tomeone-4631C4...@news.bellglobal.com, Harry
> Al-Shakarchi at tom...@bungee.org wrote on 06/15/01 7:58 PM:
>
> > In article <20010615191830...@ng-cj1.aol.com>,
> > kj4...@aol.com (Kj4jane) wrote:
> >
> >> So bored, I am so bored! Who's working on what? Is there anything new
> >> under
> >> the sun? Do we just have to keep playing Rubicon & all those others until
> >> the
> >> cow's come home? TC19, wake up! Thomas Reed, where is the Dissent
> >> followup?
> >> And what the hell is happening with RTM? And and and,
> >> sigh.....................
> >>
> >> jane/JD
> >
> > Soon. :)
>
> "Soon " referring to what?
TC19.
C Lund
Al-Shakarchi <tom...@bungee.org> wrote:
> > > Soon. :)
> > "Soon " referring to what?
> TC19.
Waiting for the boxes, are you? ;)
--
Harry Al-Shakarchi
cl...@notam.SPAM.AND.DIE.uio.no (C Lund) wrote:
> In article <tomeone-84C89D...@news.bellglobal.com>, Harry
> Al-Shakarchi <tom...@bungee.org> wrote:
>
> > > > Soon. :)
> > > "Soon " referring to what?
> > TC19.
>
> Waiting for the boxes, are you? ;)
Um...er... yeah! :)
Forrest Cameranesi
I have only one more map left to do in Eternal (which is underway as I
type), and the texture set I have now I *could* make due with, though I
would really prefer to wait for Hippie to do the high-res remake. What I
really need before I start beta testing though are hax0rs skilled in
Anvil, Fux, MML, etc... to put the whole package together. Bungie's data
structures and the tools that edit them and just way to convoluted for
my mind to make sense of.
--
-Forrest Cameranesi
forrest [at] bungie [dot] org - forrest [at] west [dot] net
<http://myth.bungie.org/> - <http://www.west.net/~forrest/>
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames or spam."
Kj4jane
>I have only one more map left to do in Eternal (which is underway as I
>type), and the texture set I have now I *could* make due with, though I
>
>would really prefer to wait for Hippie to do the high-res remake. What I
>
>really need before I start beta testing though are hax0rs skilled in
>Anvil, Fux, MML, etc... to put the whole package together. Bungie's data
>
>structures and the tools that edit them and just way to convoluted for
>my mind to make sense of.
Forrest! My man! And witty too! I'm not skilled in anything (beta testing,
you mentioned 'beta testing'?) . . . . but I suspect a bunch of us stand at the
ready. Hell, I hope so!
jane/JD
Forrest Cameranesi
kj4...@aol.com (Kj4jane) wrote:
> Forrest! My man! And witty too! I'm not skilled in anything (beta
> testing,
> you mentioned 'beta testing'?) . . . . but I suspect a bunch of us stand
> at the
> ready. Hell, I hope so!
Yeah, you're definitely all on my beta testers list. But I think it's a
little to soon for that, as the thing's not even playable until I can
get someone to put it all together.
There are also a few other small things I forgot which need to be done;
an epilogue screen (though I have one that I want to use, I just have to
convince the guy who did it for me to allow me to use it at the size I
want to; he insists it be bigger than I want, cuz I want it to time with
the music and the text perfectly which means smaller than he would
like). And then I've got to write terminal texts and find someone to
make term pics.
jancheta
at for...@bungie.org wrote on 06/17/01 6:36 PM:
> Yeah, you're definitely all on my beta testers list. But I think it's a
> little to soon for that, as the thing's not even playable until I can
> get someone to put it all together.
>
> There are also a few other small things I forgot which need to be done;
> an epilogue screen (though I have one that I want to use, I just have to
> convince the guy who did it for me to allow me to use it at the size I
> want to; he insists it be bigger than I want, cuz I want it to time with
> the music and the text perfectly which means smaller than he would
> like). And then I've got to write terminal texts and find someone to
> make term pics.
just out of curiosity, are you going to have new monsters/weapons in it?
Forrest Cameranesi
<janc...@sprint.ca> wrote:
> just out of curiosity, are you going to have new monsters/weapons in it?
I have one all-new monster, one hax0red monster, I need another hax0red
monster, and I plan to port a bunch of monsters from M1 (all while
retaining all the existing Infinity monsters... yeah, big collections,
high RAM requirements).
I HAVE sprites for eight new weapons, but I'm not sure which I'm going
to use. If Aleph can support larger numbers of weapons - can it? - I
might use all of them, and all the Infinity and M1 weapons. (The
scenario spans a huge timeframe, so if I can use different sets of
weapons appropriate to each time period, that would kick ass).
James Hastings-Trew
at for...@bungie.org wrote on 6/17/01 10:02 PM:
> I have one all-new monster, one hax0red monster, I need another hax0red
> monster, and I plan to port a bunch of monsters from M1 (all while
> retaining all the existing Infinity monsters... yeah, big collections,
> high RAM requirements).
Yes, a wide variety of monster graphics for the same basic "wander into the
path of my bullets" idiot monster AI. Now that's game-play value.
Nikolaus Wegner
James Hastings-Trew <ji...@nospamhome.com> wrote:
> idiot monster AI.
Maybe you'd rather have something like QuakeC so that you can change it?
Thomas Reed
<kj4...@aol.com> wrote:
> Thomas Reed, where is the Dissent followup?
Only in my head at this point! (And before you ask -- no, no one's
allowed in there! ;-)
Anybody know what the status is of some good editing (mainly mapmaking)
tools to take advantage of A1? If I do anything else, it'll be for A1,
but Forge is seriously handicapped for A1-optimized work. (Most
importantly, the long viewing distance problems and transparent lines
errors which are gone in A1 but still a problem in Forge.)
Aaron Davies
As Loren says, no "real artists" yet. But I think Bloodhound is actually
still being worked on. Check it out at sourceforge.
--
__ __
/ ) / )
/--/ __. __ ________ / / __. , __o _ _
/ (_(_/|_/ (_(_) / / <_ /__/_(_/|_\/ <__</_/_)_
Forrest Cameranesi
> > I have one all-new monster, one hax0red monster, I need another hax0red
> > monster, and I plan to port a bunch of monsters from M1 (all while
> > retaining all the existing Infinity monsters... yeah, big collections,
> > high RAM requirements).
>
> Yes, a wide variety of monster graphics for the same basic "wander into
> the
> path of my bullets" idiot monster AI. Now that's game-play value.
It's not my fault that the Marathon AI is stupid compared to modern
games, and at the time I started working on this project, YOU were
working on your own (TI) Marathon project as well. And it's not like
I've been wasting my time, throwing it into this project; if I had been
throwing my time into this project headlong, and had a few skills that I
just don't have, it would be done by now. But I HAVE done enough work on
it that I'm not going to scrap the whole damn thing or try to port it to
Quake or UT or what have you. AND, the new monsters are NOT just for the
sake of having new monsters; the plot (from which the entire scenario
came) dictated that certain new monsters need to be created, so they
were.
In other words, fuck off.
James Hastings-Trew
at for...@bungie.org wrote on 6/18/01 7:27 PM:
My first impulse was to reply to your witty comments with, "Dear Retard,
Drop Dead." However, your final witty comment has inspired me to be a little
more clear.
Since this scenario is likely never to see the light of day, I think I can
safely comment that your plot/timeline/vision is irrelevant. Since Marathon
monsters are all dumber than a sack of hammers, having 14 different
variations on the same exact thing seems more likely due to poor choices re:
plot, than due to any interesting game play options they might provide. That
was my only point.
> It's not my fault that the Marathon AI is stupid compared to modern
> games, and at the time I started working on this project, YOU were
> working on your own (TI) Marathon project as well.
No matter how many times I read this sentence, I cannot make the connection
between the beginning and ending statements. I assume therefore that this
was just random babbling.
> And it's not like
> I've been wasting my time, throwing it into this project; if I had been
> throwing my time into this project headlong, and had a few skills that I
> just don't have, it would be done by now.
So, if I read this correctly, if you had managed to complete this thing by
now, you would have considered it a waste of time?
> But I HAVE done enough work on
> it that I'm not going to scrap the whole damn thing or try to port it to
> Quake or UT or what have you. AND, the new monsters are NOT just for the
> sake of having new monsters; the plot (from which the entire scenario
> came) dictated that certain new monsters need to be created, so they
> were.
So the monsters were not constructed just for the sake of having them, but
for the sake of your plot. A fine distinction indeed. Of course, when you
use the past tense to say the monsters were created, you are likely in
error.. From your previous posts, basic things like this are not yet done?
> In other words, fuck off.
Indeed.
Forrest Cameranesi
<ji...@nospamhome.com> wrote:
> in article forrest-A96D76...@news.west.net, Forrest
> Cameranesi
> at for...@bungie.org wrote on 6/18/01 7:27 PM:
>
> My first impulse was to reply to your witty comments with, "Dear Retard,
> Drop Dead." However, your final witty comment has inspired me to be a
> little
> more clear.
>
> Since this scenario is likely never to see the light of day, I think I
> can
> safely comment that your plot/timeline/vision is irrelevant. Since
> Marathon
> monsters are all dumber than a sack of hammers, having 14 different
> variations on the same exact thing seems more likely due to poor choices
> re:
> plot, than due to any interesting game play options they might provide.
> That
> was my only point.
So the only thing that differentiates monsters, in your opinion, is the
AI? A Green Fighter and a Major Juggernaut are exactly the same thing
because they use the same AI? If that's so, why do you bother putting
more than one monster type in any of YOUR maps?
> > It's not my fault that the Marathon AI is stupid compared to modern
> > games, and at the time I started working on this project, YOU were
> > working on your own (TI) Marathon project as well.
>
> No matter how many times I read this sentence, I cannot make the
> connection
> between the beginning and ending statements. I assume therefore that this
> was just random babbling.
You seemed to be suggesting "Marathon AI is stupid, why do anything in
Marathon?". I pointed out that at the time this project began, YOU were
doing things in Marathon to.
> > And it's not like
> > I've been wasting my time, throwing it into this project; if I had been
> > throwing my time into this project headlong, and had a few skills that
> > I
> > just don't have, it would be done by now.
>
> So, if I read this correctly, if you had managed to complete this thing
> by
> now, you would have considered it a waste of time?
No; if I had been pouring long hours and tons of hard work into a
project that was never going anywhere for five years, THAT would have
been a waste of time. But if I had been working that hard on it (and had
some skills that I don't), it would have been done long ago, and NOT
have been a waste of time. Likewise, since I've only worked on it off
and on in my spare time for these past five years, it has also not been
a waste of time.
> So the monsters were not constructed just for the sake of having them,
> but
> for the sake of your plot. A fine distinction indeed.
Yes. It is a distinction between "OOH! LETS MAKE GIANT CYBORG HULKS THAT
KIL THINS MB!" and "This level is set during the Drinniol Rebellion.
Where are the cyborg hulks? There were cyborg hulks running around
killing things back then. We need cyborg hulks."
> Of course, when you
> use the past tense to say the monsters were created, you are likely in
> error.. From your previous posts, basic things like this are not yet
> done?
The new monster graphics are all done. One modified monster is not done,
and some old monsters need to be ported.
Kj4jane
>the
>path of my bullets" idiot monster AI. Now that's game-play value.
JHT, master button pusher, hated critic, smart guy. Must be manic depressive
as some days he's quite helpful & other days . . . . . James, you so mean
spirited on Mondays/Wednesdays & Sundays!
sorry, I'm just a dumb ole' player . . . . big mouth too!
jane/JD
Thomas Reed
<ji...@nospamhome.com> wrote:
> Since this scenario is likely never to see the light of day
Hmmm... Didn't someone say the same thing to Chris Lund some time ago?
In other words, shut it. You've got absolutely no position to make
such a statement.
Further, why are you still here if you think there's no point in having
new monsters because of "dumb AI"? Why did TI bother to create a new
set of Juggernaut images? Was it because you were dumb at the time and
didn't know any better? Or is it just possible that after years of
playing Marathon, you're frustrated with the lack of monster AI and
decided to take it out on Forrest for no good reason?
James Hastings-Trew
thoma...@earthlink.net wrote on 6/19/01 9:09 PM:
> In other words, shut it. You've got absolutely no position to make
> such a statement.
Call it an educated guess. See www.sphidia.com for more details.
> Why did TI bother to create a new set of Juggernaut images?
> Was it because you were dumb at the time and didn't know any better?
Because Dan Clancy wanted to. An expression of creativity? Take your pick.
At least it was something new.
C Lund
<thoma...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> In article <B754106B.3F12%ji...@nospamhome.com>, James Hastings-Trew
> <ji...@nospamhome.com> wrote:
> > Since this scenario is likely never to see the light of day
> Hmmm... Didn't someone say the same thing to Chris Lund some time ago?
Yes. Many, many times. Show how much statements like that are worth.
Borzz
cl...@notam.SPAM.AND.DIE.uio.no (C Lund) wrote:
Motivation can be priceless.
--
....Borzz
Thomas Reed
<ji...@nospamhome.com> wrote:
> > In other words, shut it. You've got absolutely no position to make
> > such a statement.
>
> Call it an educated guess. See www.sphidia.com for more details.
Okay, maybe I'm not in on some little secret that you are -- what does
Sphidia have to do with Eternal? Perhaps you're upset that Forrest is
"co-founder and Creative Director of Sphidia Software"? Did you not
have a job when you worked on TI? I had the extremely challenging job
of caring for three very young children while working on Dissent. If
you've never done that, you won't understand the time commitment there.
Plus I had to keep the wife -- who hates when I spend too much time on
video games -- happy. I had to scrounge time for Dissent when I could,
which was hard to do, but I did it.
In any case, I see a lot of Eternal-related activity on the scenario
news page, so I fail to see where you could possibly justify such a
statement. And even if it was completely silent -- well, may I again
put forth the example of the "vaporware" Rubicon?
> > Why did TI bother to create a new set of Juggernaut images?
> > Was it because you were dumb at the time and didn't know any better?
>
> Because Dan Clancy wanted to. An expression of creativity? Take your pick.
> At least it was something new.
Ahhh, something new... Perhaps that's what Forrest hopes to give us,
yet you jump down his throat?
I think there must be a reason -- probably not involving Forrest --
behind your outburst. I'll assume you were having a bad day and
frustrated with some aspect of whatever it is with A1 that you're doing
these days. If you've got a better reason to say bad things about
Forrest or Eternal, spill it. Otherwise, I (and I'm sure many others)
would rather you not say anything. TI was a great scenario, but it
*DOES NOT* make you God of the Marathon Universe, capable of judging
all projects before seeing them.
Kj4jane
>Hmmm... Didn't someone say the same thing to Chris Lund some time ago?
>
>In other words, shut it. You've got absolutely no position to make
>such a statement.
>
>Further, why are you still here if you think there's no point in having
>new monsters because of "dumb AI"? Why did TI bother to create a new
>set of Juggernaut images? Was it because you were dumb at the time and
>didn't know any better? Or is it just possible that after years of
>playing Marathon, you're frustrated with the lack of monster AI and
>decided to take it out on Forrest for no good reason?
Thomas! Go, man, go! I think 'he's ' been tagged now, really good! Thanks!
And very well put.
jane/JD
Kj4jane
Thomas Reed, you are a God in your comments & perspective(s)! Dood! Keep up
the good work!
jane/JD - how's the kids? Fine I bet!
Forrest Cameranesi
<thoma...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> In any case, I see a lot of Eternal-related activity on the scenario
> news page
You do? That's funny, I've only sent one message in the past... however
long it's been, quite a while... basically saying "I'm not dead." I'm
not one for telling people what I'm up to lately. It's the same reason
sphidia.com is rarely updated - we're too busy making things to be
telling people how cool our things are going to be. (One of us keeps a
public .plan page though, at sphidia.com/russ. Good news there recently,
LoD working on the meshes, model and terrain lighting, etc. Pete picked
some crappy older models for the screenshots though, dunno why).
At least we're not powerinfused.com. Or is it igames2k.com now? Oh...
drat, seems both of them are down. Some really funny shit up there
before. The Marathon Reprisal team decided Marathon sucked and to do
their own engine. And then changed their mind and decided to get the
LithTech engine. And then died, it seems.
Tell me, James, do you laugh at Island Four too?
, so I fail to see where you could possibly justify such a
> statement. And even if it was completely silent -- well, may I again
> put forth the example of the "vaporware" Rubicon?
Chris and Scott were smart when they shut up about Rubicon. Kept asses
like James from further mocking them in public, and frees up more time
to do actual work. And as I'm sure I've said before, I take Rubicon as a
big sign of hope that Eternal might actually be finished Soon .
Though I do secretly laugh at a lot of the stuff at ScenarioNews, it's
never out loud, just in case someone there actually pulls through and
proves me wrong, in which case I'd look like a total ass with no clue.
Keep laughing, James. :-)
James Hastings-Trew
>> Sphidia have to do with Eternal? Perhaps you're upset that Forrest is
>> "co-founder and Creative Director of Sphidia Software"?
Sounds great on paper.
>> I had the extremely challenging job
>> of caring for three very young children while working on Dissent. If
>> you've never done that, you won't understand the time commitment there.
>> Plus I had to keep the wife -- who hates when I spend too much time on
>> video games -- happy. I had to scrounge time for Dissent when I could,
>> which was hard to do, but I did it.
Boo-hoo. Your point?
>> And even if it was completely silent -- well, may I again
>> put forth the example of the "vaporware" Rubicon?
Ok, memory failing me now (it was a VERY VERY VERY long time ago), but I am
pretty sure, knowing the guy I am, that I *did* poke fun at Clund for the
ongoing saga of the never finished whatever it was he was working on,
somewhere back in the distant mists of time. So what? Somebody has to keep
pushing the vapor into reality... Who knows, maybe if we had ridiculed
"Quarts" long ago, we would be playing "Hoth" now.
>> Ahhh, something new... Perhaps that's what Forrest hopes to give us,
>> yet you jump down his throat?
I am not sure what is really new about putting every Bungie monster since
GNOP into a scenario, but more power to him.
>> I think there must be a reason -- probably not involving Forrest --
>> behind your outburst. I'll assume you were having a bad day and
>> frustrated with some aspect of whatever it is with A1 that you're doing
>> these days.
Spare me.
>> Otherwise, I (and I'm sure many others) would rather you not say anything.
Boo-hoo. Your point?
>> TI was a great scenario, but it *DOES NOT* make you God of the Marathon
>> Universe, capable of judging all projects before seeing them.
I think I will now lie down and cry.
Not.
James Hastings-Trew
at for...@bungie.org wrote on 6/20/01 8:13 PM:
> Tell me, James, do you laugh at Island Four too?
I probably would if I knew who they were. Is this another company run out of
Mom and Dad's Rec Room? Where everyone has really cool titles and shit?
> And as I'm sure I've said before, I take Rubicon as a
> big sign of hope that Eternal might actually be finished Soon .
Why is that? Is C. Lund gonna help you get yours done now too? Otherwise, I
don't see the connection.
> Keep laughing, James. :-)
Trust me. RFC.
IQ98
> In article <B755802C.3F3C%ji...@nospamhome.com>, James Hastings-Trew
> <ji...@nospamhome.com> wrote:
>
> > > In other words, shut it. You've got absolutely no position to make
> > > such a statement.
> >
> > Call it an educated guess. See www.sphidia.com for more details.
>
> Okay, maybe I'm not in on some little secret that you are -- what does
> Sphidia have to do with Eternal? Perhaps you're upset that Forrest is
> "co-founder and Creative Director of Sphidia Software"?
Doublaught had Randy Reddig (among other geniuses) and could not get
Duality out the door. Sphidia has...Forrest Calamari, who, armed with the
best level editor ever made, cannot get a decent marathon scenario out the
door even after years of hype and bullshit.
I'll wager a bottle of single-malt scotch gainst a pint of Mad Dog that
the only time we ever hear of Sphidia is in some "whatever happened to"
announcement.
Boren Petsnatch
--
Happiness is a deep fryer
And a big fork
Nikolaus Wegner
small...@lowIQ.com (IQ98) wrote:
> single-malt scotch
Just thought I'd take a random quote and put in another two cents: what
scenarios have actually done something new with the doom with terminals
gameplay? I'm not saying I can't stand it (I play through the series and
mods every once in a while), but I just don't see anything much going on
in that department. If you want examples of somethings that aren't just
doom with terminals and switches (maybe Quake with terminals?): Deus Ex,
Half-Life, Goldeneye, Rainbow Six, and NOLF all managed something that
advanced the standards for gameplay (single player/coop), while
Counter-Strike and Team Fortress added more depth to multiplayer games.
I'm not talking about making "Quake", or "Quake with marathon skins"
(you know who you are), or just redoing marathon with better graphics,
but making marathon actually have good and varied singleplayer gameplay
(I don't even think terminals count much towards gameplay at all, beyond
getting a story told to you without much immersion) while also adding
some better mod-making ability (you could not currently make any of the
above games with the marathon engine, but many of those were or could be
made as mods for either quake or unreal). Some people have pointed out
that if you wanted a flight sim, you'd go make Fly! or Falcon, or if you
wanted a driving sim you'd make Driver, or if you wanted an RTS you'd
make TA or StarCraft (paraphrased, but you get the idea). What about
parachuting in NOLF? (No One Lives Forever is a take on spy movies from
the sixties) Or the squad combat in R6? Or the tank driving of bond?
Have you wanted to make the player into a leader of BoBs? fight during
medium-scale ground combat on Pfhor Prime? Drop like a guy from Starship
Troopers? What about some carriages (or inhabitants) for your next
Tempus Irae? Granted, a source edit could specifically add those for one
mod (or several), but there are bennefits in having a cross platform
runtime that doesn't have the complexity of the backend and can be
easily extended without a copy of CodeWarrior and a lot of time to
compile for testing. That, and it seems to be the standard.
Aaron Campbell
Thats all you need to know.
--
NetBoy
Forrest Cameranesi
Nikolaus Wegner <nwe...@home.com> wrote:
Problem is, this kind of alterability is specifically due to the
versatility of the newer engines, with things like QuakeC and such. (To
cross subthreads here, one of the few things Sphidia DOES have already
done is SANScript, an insanely versitile scripting language that drives
pretty much everything in the game).
Marathon doesn't have that versatility, and adding that versatility is
almost as hard (or harder than) just modifying the engine to do what you
want.
Hrm... I wonder if SANScript could be adapted into Marathon...
Forrest Cameranesi
<ji...@nospamhome.com> wrote:
> > Tell me, James, do you laugh at Island Four too?
>
> I probably would if I knew who they were. Is this another company run out
> of
> Mom and Dad's Rec Room? Where everyone has really cool titles and shit?
You're really been out of the loop, haven't you? Nathan Bitner, former
lead designer on Halo, left Bungie to start his own company. They did a
whole lot of press and PR and stuff (WAY more than Sphidia has; we just
said basically "hi, we're here, that's the website, this is what we're
trying to do, talk to you when we have something to show").
But, since they haven't got a product yet, or even enough of a
development build to warrant showing progress shots of (I of course
don't know their internal development status), people laughed at them. A
lot. More than people laugh at Sphidia, because we never say anything
except in discussions like this (no PRs since that first). They had an
official fansite like B.org, islandfour.org, which recently shut down.
So I guess if people laugh at a company founded by a big time Bungie
guy, single-handedly responsible for the Cortana letters and a lot of
the shit in Halo... then people must just be morons.
Welcome to the masses, James. Feel free to laugh your ass off -
everybody else is. I'll make sure to note your silence when we (i4,
Sphidia, and all the other people being mocked) prove you wrong.
Forrest Cameranesi
<ji...@nospamhome.com> wrote:
> Ok, memory failing me now (it was a VERY VERY VERY long time ago), but I
> am
> pretty sure, knowing the guy I am, that I *did* poke fun at Clund for the
> ongoing saga of the never finished whatever it was he was working on,
> somewhere back in the distant mists of time. So what? Somebody has to
> keep
> pushing the vapor into reality... Who knows, maybe if we had ridiculed
> "Quarts" long ago, we would be playing "Hoth" now.
As best I can tell, all your mockery has done is made people resent you
and avoid talking about their projects in front of you. And if that's
your goal, congradulations. But don't think you're somehow "encouraging"
projects to completion by calling their creators liars and idiots.
C Lund
> Just thought I'd take a random quote and put in another two cents: what
> scenarios have actually done something new with the doom with terminals
> gameplay? I'm not saying I can't stand it (I play through the series and
> mods every once in a while), but I just don't see anything much going on
> in that department. If you want examples of somethings that aren't just
> doom with terminals and switches (maybe Quake with terminals?): Deus Ex,
> Half-Life, Goldeneye, Rainbow Six, and NOLF all managed something that
> advanced the standards for gameplay (single player/coop), while
> Counter-Strike and Team Fortress added more depth to multiplayer games.
(snip)
> Have you wanted to make the player into a leader of BoBs? fight during
> medium-scale ground combat on Pfhor Prime? Drop like a guy from Starship
> Troopers? What about some carriages (or inhabitants) for your next
> Tempus Irae? Granted, a source edit could specifically add those for one
> mod (or several), but there are bennefits in having a cross platform
> runtime that doesn't have the complexity of the backend and can be
> easily extended without a copy of CodeWarrior and a lot of time to
> compile for testing. That, and it seems to be the standard.
If it's that easy, why don't *you* take your copy of Codewarrior and do it
yourself?
C Lund
<ji...@nospamhome.com> wrote:
> >> And even if it was completely silent -- well, may I again
> >> put forth the example of the "vaporware" Rubicon?
> Ok, memory failing me now (it was a VERY VERY VERY long time ago), but I am
> pretty sure, knowing the guy I am, that I *did* poke fun at Clund for the
> ongoing saga of the never finished whatever it was he was working on,
> somewhere back in the distant mists of time. So what? Somebody has to keep
> pushing the vapor into reality... Who knows, maybe if we had ridiculed
> "Quarts" long ago, we would be playing "Hoth" now.
Do you really think your vitriol had anything to do with Rubicon being
released rather than fading awawy like most other scenarios? You
overestimate yourself. Seriously. The only effect your poison-pen posts on
agm ever had on me was make me consider dumping you in my kill-file.
You make great Marathon scenarios. Please make more. But your
personality...? Echh.
James Hastings-Trew
at for...@bungie.org wrote on 6/20/01 11:22 PM:
>>> Tell me, James, do you laugh at Island Four too?
> But, since they haven't got a product yet, or even enough of a
> development build to warrant showing progress shots of (I of course
> don't know their internal development status), people laughed at them. A
> lot. More than people laugh at Sphidia, because we never say anything
> except in discussions like this (no PRs since that first). They had an
> official fansite like B.org, islandfour.org, which recently shut down.
Bla bla bla... People laughed at John Romero too, and he had a proven track
record, and actually shipped a product. Too bad it was Daikatana.
James Hastings-Trew
Wegner at nwe...@home.com wrote on 6/20/01 10:24 PM:
> Some people have pointed out
> that if you wanted a flight sim, you'd go make Fly! or Falcon, or if you
> wanted a driving sim you'd make Driver, or if you wanted an RTS you'd
> make TA or StarCraft (paraphrased, but you get the idea). What about
> parachuting in NOLF? (No One Lives Forever is a take on spy movies from
> the sixties) Or the squad combat in R6? Or the tank driving of bond?
> Have you wanted to make the player into a leader of BoBs? fight during
> medium-scale ground combat on Pfhor Prime?
To quote from John Carmack, one game engine won't be able to everything.
Each one has to be specifically tuned and optimized to one or a few things
really well, and the rest suffers. Some game engines are great at indoors
type settings (Quake series), Some are great at outdoors settings (Tribes),
and some are great at moving around and around in circles (driving sims).
Yes, it would be really cool to have a game where you can parasail into an
abandoned city, stalk around buildings and scramble over the rooftops, then
hop down, steal a car and go to the next game area, and there have been some
attempts at that over the years (I believe one of the terminator series
tried that) but they are rare. Pilotwings 64 on the Nintendo 64 system tried
to have that kind of freedom - you could rocket pack around to another city,
pick up a special star and fly around the entire US at random. You could
wander into building and find secrets, etc. Got really boring after a while.
One thing to keep in mind is that creativity needs bounds. You have to have
rules and restrictions to work up against, and try to overcome with clever
solutions. My most rewarding experiences with Forge have been in trying to
figure out some way AROUND an engine limitation, rather than happily working
within its bounds. Make something too open-ended and I think both the game
creation process and the end-player experience suffers.
Borzz
cl...@notam.SPAM.AND.DIE.uio.no (C Lund) wrote:
> You make great Marathon scenarios. Please make more. But your
> personality...? Echh.
Wish I could say the same about you. Having actually *worked* with James
on both personal and professional projects, I can assure you he's a
dream to work with, or for.
If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Mac gaming sucks,
and people here know it. Blowing around a lot of hot air only
perpetuates the problem. Those who actually release something should be
heralded for their efforts. Those who who help others realize a dream
should be honored. Quit your bickering and get back to work.
--
....Borzz
Nikolaus Wegner
James Hastings-Trew <ji...@nospamhome.com> wrote:
> People laughed at John Romero too, and he had a proven track
> record, and actually shipped a product
They also shipped Deus Ex.
Nikolaus Wegner
cl...@notam.SPAM.AND.DIE.uio.no (C Lund) wrote:
> If it's that easy, why don't *you* take your copy of Codewarrior and do it
> yourself?
It's not easy to add the scripting language (or make Pfortran better),
but I said the easier part is using the scripting language to add the
stuff I was talking about. I don't even think I ever got A1 to build
when I tried, but that shows how competent I am.
Nikolaus Wegner
James Hastings-Trew <ji...@nospamhome.com> wrote:
> One thing to keep in mind is that creativity needs bounds. You have to have
> rules and restrictions to work up against, and try to overcome with clever
> solutions. My most rewarding experiences with Forge have been in trying to
> figure out some way AROUND an engine limitation, rather than happily working
> within its bounds. Make something too open-ended and I think both the game
> creation process and the end-player experience suffers.
Uhh.... I was talking about that. The people who made Goldeneye had one
level where you drove a tank through a city. They didn't make the whole
city, and they didn't make a seperate engine for the tank sim, but you
got to run over people and stuff while firing a big gun. It was kind of
fun. MDK and NOLF had parachuting. You fell for a while, and in NOLF you
fight some dudes and MDK you dodge SAMs and laser things, which is also
kind of fun, then you landed in a particular spot and carried on. It's
not open ended, it's fairly limited in implimentation, but it shakes up
the gameplay a bit. More examples: AirQuake and QuakeRally managed to
make some vehicle physics for combat and racing (respectively), and even
have some great outdoor maps. Slide has hoverboard racing. TargetQuake
and Metroid are side-scrollers. TeamFortress and Counter-Strike did
something new with teamplay. Defeat in Detail has some
not-totally-unbearable real time strategy. Marathon's gameplay is
currently just running around and shooting stuff, and many of these mods
would bennefit non-deathmatch marathon levels that used them properly
(like Bond's tank) to do something specific, or even used them almost
entirely (AirQuake levels make some sense here, with some modifications
for continuation and integration with the shoot-'em-up). You talk about
creativity and working around Marathon's limitations, but that's what
I'm talking about too. The big part of adding something like QuakeC is
removing some of the current limitations and adding things that couldn't
otherwise be done (a carriage? a subway? an escape pod? a door that
rotates around rather than only sliding upwards?)
Dennis Taylor
happened to say:
> The big part of adding something like QuakeC is removing some of the
> current limitations and adding things that couldn't otherwise be done
> (a carriage? a subway? an escape pod? a door that rotates around
> rather than only sliding upwards?)
Not strictly true. The lack of non-vertically-moving platforms
is a fundamental deficiency of the engine itself. Adding a scripting
language won't do anything to correct that. Adding support for
freely-movable platforms would probably be an order of magnitude harder
than adding a real scripting language.
I hate to say it, but I suppose I agree with James here. If you
want Unreal, you know where to find it. No amount of wishing is going to
turn the venerable Marathon code into an all-singing, all-dancing
general-purpose game engine.
_________________________________________________________________________
Dennis Taylor "Anyone whose days are all the same and free from
den...@funkplanet.com want inhabits eternity of a sort." - Peter Hoeg
_________________________________________________________________________
PGP Fingerprint: E8D6 9670 4FBD EEC3 6C6B 810B 2B30 E529 51BD 7B90
Dennis Taylor
happened to say:
Again, not strictly true. Daikatana and Deus Ex were developed
by entirely separate divisions of the same game studio (Ion Storm);
Warren Spector, the man behind Looking Glass Software, was the producer
of Deus Ex. In fact, I would venture to say that John Romero's lack of
involvement was the main reason why the game didn't suck. :-)
Not that I'm trying to validate James' vitriolic flamage here,
though. Sigh. Can't we all just get along?
Nikolaus Wegner
den...@bluesky.phreeow.net (Dennis Taylor) wrote:
> I hate to say it, but I suppose I agree with James here. If you
> want Unreal, you know where to find it. No amount of wishing is going to
> turn the venerable Marathon code into an all-singing, all-dancing
> general-purpose game engine.
So why don't you move to quake? Those people need some good single
player plots, and terminals could be added without too much aggravation
(compared to adding good networking and scripting to marathon). Either
way, you need a scripting language and better platforms, possibly even
more than networking.
Dennis Taylor
happened to say:
> So why don't you move to quake? Those people need some good single
> player plots, and terminals could be added without too much aggravation
> (compared to adding good networking and scripting to marathon). Either
> way, you need a scripting language and better platforms, possibly even
> more than networking.
Sounds good. Let me know when you're done. ;-)
C Lund
Nikolaus Wegner <nwe...@home.com> wrote:
> In article <slrn9j4jhn....@bluesky.phreeow.net>,
> den...@bluesky.phreeow.net (Dennis Taylor) wrote:
>
> > I hate to say it, but I suppose I agree with James here. If you
> > want Unreal, you know where to find it. No amount of wishing is going to
> > turn the venerable Marathon code into an all-singing, all-dancing
> > general-purpose game engine.
>
> So why don't you move to quake?
Because Quake is not Marathon. Why haven't *you* moved to Quake?
C Lund
<cbor...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
> In article <clund-21060...@c193s104h2.upc.chello.no>,
> cl...@notam.SPAM.AND.DIE.uio.no (C Lund) wrote:
> > You make great Marathon scenarios. Please make more. But your
> > personality...? Echh.
> Wish I could say the same about you.
I make lousy scenarios but have a great personality? ;)
> Having actually *worked* with James
> on both personal and professional projects, I can assure you he's a
> dream to work with, or for.
That may be the case, but I'm talking about the personality he's shown us
here on agm.
> If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Mac gaming sucks,
> and people here know it. Blowing around a lot of hot air only
> perpetuates the problem. Those who actually release something should be
> heralded for their efforts.
True. But that does not give them the right to put down people who are in
the progress of making something.
> Those who who help others realize a dream
> should be honored.
Then what should one say about people who try to discourage others from
realizing their dreams?
"I probably would if I knew who they were. Is this another company run out of
Mom and Dad's Rec Room? Where everyone has really cool titles and shit?"
Doesn't sound like constructive critizism to me.
Thomas Reed
> Quit your bickering and get back to work.
Although I've been participating in the "bickering", I do have to agree
with you here Borzz... However, I still take offense at James putting
down someone else's work without having seen it and having no idea how
hard the creators may be working. I wasn't around here at the time,
but did anyone insult you and James while TI was in development?
If so, and if this is generally accepted by the "legends" of the
Marathon community, then there's something seriously wrong...
Borzz
cl...@notam.SPAM.AND.DIE.uio.no (C Lund) wrote:
> I make lousy scenarios but have a great personality? ;)
All in good fun ;)
> That may be the case, but I'm talking about the personality he's shown us
> here on agm.
Some of us have a boiling point. Some of us are mentally blind idiots
(no offense to the visually impaired).
> True. But that does not give them the right to put down people who are in
> the progress of making something.
People who are in the progress of making something, and boast without
merit - are quite often setting themselves up for disaster.
> Then what should one say about people who try to discourage others from
> realizing their dreams?
Discourage? If an individuals dream/creation is upended due to the
comments of one or two individuals - then they have bigger problems.
Someone who tells me I'm unable to do something I desire is only adding
fuel to the fire...but that's me.
> "I probably would if I knew who they were. Is this another company run out of
> Mom and Dad's Rec Room? Where everyone has really cool titles and shit?"
>
> Doesn't sound like constructive critizism to me.
If you only knew...
--
....Borzz
Thomas Reed
<ji...@nospamhome.com> wrote:
> Somebody has to keep
> pushing the vapor into reality... Who knows, maybe if we had ridiculed
> "Quarts" long ago, we would be playing "Hoth" now.
Wait, wait, wait... You're trying to take some credit for getting
Rubicon out the door? I don't think so. This kind of crap is NOT
motivational. It just makes people dislike you. Do you enjoy being
disliked, or is there another reason you do this?
> I am not sure what is really new about putting every Bungie monster since
> GNOP into a scenario, but more power to him.
Where did Forrest say anything about "Bungie monsters"? He said he
needed help making some *new* monsters. I think that the word "new"
implies that it's not an "old" monster (ie, from a previous game).
Nikolaus Wegner
cl...@notam.SPAM.AND.DIE.uio.no (C Lund) wrote:
> Because Quake is not Marathon.
What the hell? Are you the same guy who always says that? I sure think
you are. Well, here goes again:
What do you like about marathon? the plot? the story? the engine? I can
say I like the first 2, but the last.... if you change marathon's engine
enough to have some better STORY TELLING and IMMERSION features (not
adding just "shiny graphics" or "useless bloat"), how is that all that
much different than going straight to Quake which is nearly there? Are
you worried that Quake cannot be made into marathon? Do you believe
that? What's marathon got? Switches, platforms, cards/chips, monsters,
terminals, MML, Pfortran, king of the hill and kill the man with the
skull. Do you seriously think that those make marathon's engine any
different than Doom (essentially a very early version of Quake)? How
would going to quake affect that? You couldn't do 5d space, but we
wouldn't necessarily _need_ backwards compatibility for those maps.
Someone keeps saying stuff about "open spaces", but I think Quake can
handle the few "open spaces" in marathon (if not, we still don't
necessarily _need_ backwards compatibility for those maps). That same
guy talked about map complexity, but Homecoming, The Secret Installation
and Canal Zone are far more complex than any marathon maps that I've
seen.
http://www.planetquake.com/ikq/levels.htm
http://www.planetfortress.com/jmcstfmapzone/canalzon.htm
Maybe "ambience" or "feel" or "nostalgia"? Quake has dynamic lighting
and mappers would make whatever they needed (plus Quake can more easily
handle all those complicated switches and stuff that marathon needs all
of its 64 platforms for). Nostalgia is the only thing not there...
except a game that looks and feels like marathon might as well be
marathon...? Can you please give a better reason, Quake is not marathon
doesn't cut it. Quake could be marathon, and might as well BE marathon
except for the lack of terminals and the more advanced engine.
> Why haven't *you* moved to Quake?
Who says I haven't? I suck at coding, but I dabble, and that doesn't
stop me from appreciating other people's work.
Nikolaus Wegner
den...@bluesky.phreeow.net (Dennis Taylor) wrote:
> Sounds good. Let me know when you're done. ;-)
Yeah, well. Call me lazy and incompetent. Doesn't stop you, though.
Borzz
Thomas Reed <thoma...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Although I've been participating in the "bickering", I do have to agree
> with you here Borzz... However, I still take offense at James putting
> down someone else's work without having seen it and having no idea how
> hard the creators may be working. I wasn't around here at the time,
> but did anyone insult you and James while TI was in development?
Of course not, we didn't give anyone the chance. TI was built in total
secrecy. Look for TI info on the Marathon Story Page - probably not even
mentioned. Repercussion? Insult? Oversight?
Randall Shaw was lambasted AFTER releasing scenarios - for a Read Me
sentence, or two. Insanity.
As awkward as it sounds, TI was the 4th scenario I participated in
creating. Knowing what it takes to put one of these monsters together,
I'm easily irritated by unproven boasting.
I'm sure you're familiar with with old saying: Fool me once, shame on
you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
--
....Borzz
Aaron Davies
> > > I had the extremely challenging job
> > > of caring for three very young children while working on Dissent. If
> > > you've never done that, you won't understand the time commitment there.
> > > Plus I had to keep the wife -- who hates when I spend too much time on
> > > video games -- happy. I had to scrounge time for Dissent when I could,
> > > which was hard to do, but I did it.
>
> Boo-hoo. Your point?
James, stop being such an asshole. You made a great scenario once, but
that does *not* make you god. Not of here, and *certainly* not of mdev,
which you also harass. All you're going to achieve by this behavior is
entrance into a record number of killfiles.
--
__ __
/ ) / )
/--/ __. __ ________ / / __. , __o _ _
/ (_(_/|_/ (_(_) / / <_ /__/_(_/|_\/ <__</_/_)_
James Hastings-Trew
thoma...@earthlink.net wrote on 6/21/01 6:43 PM:
> Wait, wait, wait... You're trying to take some credit for getting
> Rubicon out the door? I don't think so. This kind of crap is NOT
> motivational. It just makes people dislike you. Do you enjoy being
> disliked, or is there another reason you do this?
It amuses me how seriously you guys all take this.
James Hastings-Trew
Davies at aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com wrote on 6/21/01 7:55 PM:
*certainly* not of mdev, which you also harass.
Excuse me? I harass Mdev? WTF are you talking about.
Forrest Cameranesi
<thoma...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Where did Forrest say anything about "Bungie monsters"? He said he
> needed help making some *new* monsters. I think that the word "new"
> implies that it's not an "old" monster (ie, from a previous game).
I have the new monsters made already. I need help porting the old ones.
I wasn't going to do the old ones initially because I didn't want to
have to replace most of the standard Infinity monsters, but then I
realized (years ago, not just recently) how you could effectively
increase the number of monsters, and since a good portion of the
scenario takes place on the Marathon at the time of the invasion, having
all those old M1 monsters makes sense, so I want to do it.
Forrest Cameranesi
Borzz <cbor...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
> > True. But that does not give them the right to put down people who are
> > in
> > the progress of making something.
>
> People who are in the progress of making something, and boast without
> merit - are quite often setting themselves up for disaster.
Since I seem to be the topic of this, I'd like to point out that I'm not
boasting, but usually just asking for assistance on one matter or
another (usually the other), and in this case, answering a question
about "are there any scenarios still in the works?" I'm passive.
Neutral. I don't run around screaming in people's faces that I'm doing
something, but if they ask what's up I have no reason to keep it secret
from them.
> > Then what should one say about people who try to discourage others from
> > realizing their dreams?
>
> Discourage? If an individuals dream/creation is upended due to the
> comments of one or two individuals - then they have bigger problems.
> Someone who tells me I'm unable to do something I desire is only adding
> fuel to the fire...but that's me.
He said trying to discourage. If someone tried to hit me and I kicked
their ass, even though I'm not harmed they still tried to hit me, which
bothers me. Likewise, telling me I'm a liar or a vaperware peddler isn't
going to stop me from working on my projects but I still don't like it.
(Which is the point a lot of us are making - to many people, maybe not
you, shit like James is spewing is neither productive nor destructive
but simply makes people not like him, or at least his comments).
Loren Petrich
Cameranesi <for...@bungie.org> wrote:
> In article <B752DC88.3EF5%ji...@nospamhome.com>, James Hastings-Trew
> <ji...@nospamhome.com> wrote:
> > Yes, a wide variety of monster graphics for the same basic "wander into
> > the
> > path of my bullets" idiot monster AI. Now that's game-play value.
>
> It's not my fault that the Marathon AI is stupid compared to modern
> games, and at the time I started working on this project, YOU were
> working on your own (TI) Marathon project as well.
Why don't some of you people try experimenting with monster-AI code?
I'm rather short on clue when it comes to doing monster AI, so you
people could distinguish yourselves by doing better than me.
--
Loren Petrich
pet...@panix.com
Happiness is a fast Macintosh
And a fast train
C Lund
> cl...@notam.SPAM.AND.DIE.uio.no (C Lund) wrote:
> > That may be the case, but I'm talking about the personality he's shown us
> > here on agm.
> Some of us have a boiling point. Some of us are mentally blind idiots
> (no offense to the visually impaired).
I realize you've seen JHT from a completely different perspective than we
have here on agm. As his long-time friend/collaborator, it's only natural
that you might take offence at some of the things that have been said
about him here. But if you put aside your personal experience with him for
a moment and look at some of the things he's said on agm, you might see
where we're coming from. Obviously you and agm know two completely
different JHTs.
> > True. But that does not give them the right to put down people who are in
> > the progress of making something.
> People who are in the progress of making something, and boast without
> merit - are quite often setting themselves up for disaster.
And so are people who ask for help on this forum.
> > Then what should one say about people who try to discourage others from
> > realizing their dreams?
> Discourage? If an individuals dream/creation is upended due to the
> comments of one or two individuals - then they have bigger problems.
> Someone who tells me I'm unable to do something I desire is only adding
> fuel to the fire...but that's me.
Some people might take the "I'll show them who's making vaporware"
attitude. others might think "well, since nobody wants to see what I'm
working on..." and then go play Quake.
Courtney Evans
<thoma...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I wasn't around here at the time,
> but did anyone insult you and James while TI was in development?
Only me and Devon!
--
Courtney Evans
My email address is my first name. The domain name is my
last name, followed by the three letters inc, followed by
dot com.
Courtney Evans
this crazy thread.
1. The parachuting bit in NOLF - this is entirely a level design hack.
There was no special engineering for it, only level design and a
parachuter skin and animation. It proves how far you can go if you know
the tools you are using really well (for a non-programmer designer.)
2. Sphidia. I can't begin to express the challenges you guys face. I'm not
out to discourage you, just to tell you the lay of the land. Do you have a
business plan that will withstand contact with reality? Have you
approached a publisher? If not, do you have a plan for approaching a
publisher with a track record of successful, on-schedule, on-budget,
bug-free titles? If not, do you have a whole lot of money that is firmly
committed to your project? And are you willing to lose money - maybe all
of it - on your first title if you have to in order to get it out the
door? Do you have a design document? Is that design document feasable? Do
you know exactly how you're going to achieve everything in that design
document? Does your design document identify risk areas? Are you prepared
to change - perhaps drastically - that design in order to complete the
project? Do you have an infrastructure for storing, backing up, and
sharing game assets? Do you have a producer? Do you have a producer who
knows how to keep people on schedule? Who knows how to identify and cope
with risks and shortcomings in the production plan? Who knows how to
manage personality conflicts? Do you have a formal pay structure? Do you
know where to find talent, how to evaluate it, and how to hire it? Do you
have experienced legal counsel to help you with contracts? Do you have a
corporate structure set up to limit your liability? Do you have a
realistic engineering plan? Do you have a plan for ownership of assets if
everything falls apart? Do you have a QA plan, that includes work during
production? Are you designing your own engine? Is your engine intended to
be general-purpose, or specific to a game? If it's the former, is it
comprised of small individual components? Or is it a closed system where
the components are heavily interdependent? If it's the latter, are you
prepared to ditch the engine after three or less projects? Have you
carefully weighed the disadvantage of the extra work required for a
general purpose engine? If it's a tailored engine, do you know where it's
shortcomings will be and does your design mesh with these shortcomings? If
it's a hardware only engine (which it should be) are you crystal-clear
about your hardware requirements?
These are all questions you should have answers to. They are the questions
we should have asked at Doubleaught, and didn't. If you want to know
anything about any of these areas, I'd be glad to explain more.
3. Mods, quake, marathon, engines, etc. My advice would be: stop whatever
you are doing. Forget any engine that's out there. Get a hold of Maya
however you can. Start learning it, and start building shit in it. Two
years down the road, you will find the reward. =D
Ansgar Esztermann
> 1. The parachuting bit in NOLF - this is entirely a level design hack.
> There was no special engineering for it, only level design and a
> parachuter skin and animation. It proves how far you can go if you know
> the tools you are using really well (for a non-programmer designer.)
The Myst scenario done in Marathon (I keep forgetting its name)
comes to mind. For those of you who do not know it, it is on
the trilogy CD set as part of the Map Making Contest
(Best Use of Forge, I believe).
Ansgar
Borzz
cl...@notam.SPAM.AND.DIE.uio.no (C Lund) wrote:
> I realize you've seen JHT from a completely different perspective than we
> have here on agm. As his long-time friend/collaborator, it's only natural
> that you might take offence at some of the things that have been said
> about him here. But if you put aside your personal experience with him for
> a moment and look at some of the things he's said on agm, you might see
> where we're coming from. Obviously you and agm know two completely
> different JHTs.
What I'm sure of, is that James has (on a number of occasions)
completely revealed *how* to do the amazing things he has discovered -
for free! Willingly. His desire to move forward has driven developers in
new directions...helping things like bridges in Marathon become a
reality. Endlessly explaining animations, and texture uses, sprite
manipulation, object replacements, terminal workings... the list is
endless.
John Lennon was difficult at times, so was Michelangelo, Van Goh and
Leonardo. Would you tell them to shut up, and place them in a killfile?
Yet, you have no complaints about the more passive, unproductive crop of
inhabitants here. Maybe if Loren would've paid more attention to artists
desires, Aleph 1 might be worth something.
> > People who are in the progress of making something, and boast without
> > merit - are quite often setting themselves up for disaster.
>
> And so are people who ask for help on this forum.
You should be ashamed for having said that. I can't remember anybody
asking for, and receiving more help than you.
> Some people might take the "I'll show them who's making vaporware"
> attitude. others might think "well, since nobody wants to see what I'm
> working on..." and then go play Quake.
To each their own. I'd call that person weak. Of course, my hanging
around here could be considered weak, too.
Crazy how threads like this get more attention than things like
developing A1 (or anything else). How sad.
--
....Borzz
Borzz
Forrest Cameranesi <for...@bungie.org> wrote:
> Since I seem to be the topic of this, I'd like to point out that I'm not
> boasting, but usually just asking for assistance on one matter or
> another (usually the other), and in this case, answering a question
> about "are there any scenarios still in the works?" I'm passive.
> Neutral. I don't run around screaming in people's faces that I'm doing
> something, but if they ask what's up I have no reason to keep it secret
> from them.
Forry, you have already laid out your entire plot. Any element of
surprize has already been eliminated. A couple of years ago, you asked
me for some help with terminal art. I was happy to help. What became of
that work? It was tossed aside, and ended up on the Orphanage. I wanted
your dream to be realized - seeing it abandonned left a sour taste in my
mouth. You gave up, or moved on. How many maps have you publicly
released? One or two? This is not how you create a proven track record.
I see (and saw) no passion.
What you *need* to do, is to locate another artist who is willing to
help, and then get busy. Nothing else will make your dreams materialize.
Publicly chatting about them is not productive, is it? Please don't
interpret this as: "you're not allowed to speak". Think more along the
lines of the boy who cried wolf.
> He said trying to discourage. If someone tried to hit me and I kicked
> their ass, even though I'm not harmed they still tried to hit me, which
> bothers me. Likewise, telling me I'm a liar or a vaperware peddler isn't
> going to stop me from working on my projects but I still don't like it.
>
> (Which is the point a lot of us are making - to many people, maybe not
> you, shit like James is spewing is neither productive nor destructive
> but simply makes people not like him, or at least his comments).
Based on your actions, I can make an assumption. The same can be done
for James. Does your Martial Arts instructor praise every move you make
- or does he try to help you correct your errors? Ever read the Tao of
Jeet Kune Do? The only person who can make you upset, is you. "Be like
water, my friend."
You have an immense knowledge of the Marathon universe - you actually
understand the story! Where can I play your understanding? Where are
your visions etched in polys? For me, you've created a world of all
talk, and no action. Does it bother me? I won't let it.
--
....Borzz
Thomas Reed
Borzz <cbor...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
> Knowing what it takes to put one of these monsters together,
> I'm easily irritated by unproven boasting.
Yes, but Forrest was looking for help, not boasting. I don't know
anything about Forrest's track record, as you seem to in detal (from a
later post). However, this is really irrelevant.
When I was working on Dissent, I knew that my strength was mapmaking
and term writing. When it comes to sounds and graphics, I have no
skills. So, of course, I went looking for help. I posted, I put an
announcement on the Recruits page, and I even released an
"alpha/prerelease" of Dissent containing the levels completed at the
time (since I figured any artists would want to see proof that work was
being done). I didn't get any help, but neither did I get slammed.
The fact that I didn't get slammed is crucial. When no help offers
came in, I seriously wondered if I could complete a scenario that
anyone would give a hang about. I was having fun, but I wasn't about
to spend the effort on polishing it up and getting it out if I didn't
think others would enjoy it. As it is, I decided to do it anyway, and
I've not gotten a single bad comment about it since I released it.
However, if folks like James had jumped all over me, I might very well
not have bothered. I'd figure nobody was interested in anything but a
professional-quality total conversion, which I couldn't do. Plus, I
was relatively new here and might have been intimidated. (I'm sure
Jane will comment on her feelings if I hadn't finished it! :-)
Of course, after this thread, I think I'd work double-time so I could
stuff it down James' mouth (if I were Forrest). So mabye something
good could come out of this thread! ;-)
Kj4jane
>Leonardo.
omg! AND James as well? Que Catagory!
jane/JD er, ah, Borzz, my dear friend, time to mow the lawn............
Kj4jane
>not have bothered. I'd figure nobody was interested in anything but a
>professional-quality total conversion, which I couldn't do. Plus, I
>was relatively new here and might have been intimidated. (I'm sure
>Jane will comment on her feelings if I hadn't finished it! :-)
Well, there ya go! Summary of the whole nine yards of this lengthy & oft times
vitriolic thread. Thomas, if you hadn't finished Dissent the Marathon World
would be a poorer place, indeed!
Thanks, jane/JD
Borzz
kj4...@aol.com (Kj4jane) wrote:
:)
Sometimes I can't believe what I wrote myself...but I meant it then, and
I still mean it now. I feel sorry for those that only know James through
agm. In fact, I feel priveledged to have met him, let alone work with
him - and consider him a friend. How many of you can say that about
others in this forum?
The problem here seems to be that some of the newer faces need to step
up and help Forry out, if they desire to do so. Work on an internet
project - you may make a life-long friend, or two - not to mention being
involved in a publicly released phenomenon!
Back to work - where's that chain saw?
--
....Borzz
Forrest Cameranesi
Borzz <cbor...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
> In article <forrest-5C8F0E...@news.west.net>,
> Forrest Cameranesi <for...@bungie.org> wrote:
>
> > Since I seem to be the topic of this, I'd like to point out that I'm
> > not
> > boasting, but usually just asking for assistance on one matter or
> > another (usually the other), and in this case, answering a question
> > about "are there any scenarios still in the works?" I'm passive.
> > Neutral. I don't run around screaming in people's faces that I'm doing
> > something, but if they ask what's up I have no reason to keep it secret
> > from them.
>
> Forry, you have already laid out your entire plot. Any element of
> surprize has already been eliminated. A couple of years ago, you asked
> me for some help with terminal art. I was happy to help. What became of
> that work? It was tossed aside, and ended up on the Orphanage. I wanted
> your dream to be realized - seeing it abandonned left a sour taste in my
> mouth. You gave up, or moved on. How many maps have you publicly
> released? One or two? This is not how you create a proven track record.
> I see (and saw) no passion.
None. (Well OK, there was that first piece of crap I threw out on AOL
while learning to use Forge back in 96, but I wouldn't call that a map).
Everything I've ever done for Marathon has been channeled into Eternal.
As far as "passion", I *HAD* passion about it in the early days. I
started off kicking ass as much as I could with my limited skills (which
was not very much). I had a small team of equally unskilled people.
Eventually they all gave up on the project, realizing they couldn't do
squat. I don't give up, even when I can't do squat. I keep trying until
I learn to do it, and I get people to help with the things that I just
can't do no matter how hard I try.
One summer, I think about three or four years ago, I got on a big
mapmaking run and taught myself how to make Marathon levels that weren't
crap. Most of Eternal's levels current came out of that. This momentum
helped me get some people to help with other things - I got some
kick-ass chapter screens and a title theme from Adam Jacob Adamczyk and
his friend Eike, some terminal graphics (that ultimately went unused,
sorry) from you, etc. Then at the end of the summer everybody quit and
fell by the wayside and I was left with a half-finishedfinished scenario
sitting in my disk.
After another few months of unsuccessfully trying to recruit more people
to help, I decided to try my hand at texturing. I created almost all of
Eternal's current textures by tweaking and merging and altering textures
from Crack.com's open-sourced Golgotha project, some Bungie textures,
and various other textures I got from other people like Lee Heida, who
joined up for a little bit and then left again. So now I've got an or 80
or 90% finished scenario, and nowhere left to go with it.
Since they I've been mostly on my own. Other dead projects from long,
long ago, most notably one called "Halcyon", lent their completed bits
to the project, like Ken Hodgeman's excellent weapons. Here and there
I've gotten other things - the Native S'pht from Svywranth (you all
remember him?), a couple maps from various people, etc. Now I have most
of a scenario, but still some parts that I just can't do. And these are
things I ask for help with.
And as I recently noted to ScenarioNews, "I'm not dead." The few
remaining maps have been finished, with the very last level in progress
right now (thanks to Oogabooga from the Aurora project). I've been
writing and rewriting all the terminals so that they don't sound like
crap, and adding a few twists and changes to the story along the way. I
stayed up until 3AM last night creating generic terminal pics
(logon/logoff screens, logos, things like that). Hippieman is redoing
all of my crappy low-res badly-dithered textures in nice clean high-res
versions. There are very few things left to be done, some of which I can
do (and AM doing), and some of which I can't.
> What you *need* to do, is to locate another artist who is willing to
> help, and then get busy. Nothing else will make your dreams materialize.
> Publicly chatting about them is not productive, is it? Please don't
> interpret this as: "you're not allowed to speak". Think more along the
> lines of the boy who cried wolf.
And how am I supposed to locate an artist without speaking about the
project? That's practically the only reason I ever *do* speak about it -
"I need someone who can do this this or this." (and it's not really
artists that I need, though one of them might be nice too - I need
people well-versed in the structures of Marathon and its tools, Anvil,
Fux, MML, etc).
> > He said trying to discourage. If someone tried to hit me and I kicked
> > their ass, even though I'm not harmed they still tried to hit me, which
> > bothers me. Likewise, telling me I'm a liar or a vaperware peddler
> > isn't
> > going to stop me from working on my projects but I still don't like it.
> >
> > (Which is the point a lot of us are making - to many people, maybe not
> > you, shit like James is spewing is neither productive nor destructive
> > but simply makes people not like him, or at least his comments).
>
> Based on your actions, I can make an assumption. The same can be done
> for James. Does your Martial Arts instructor praise every move you make
> - or does he try to help you correct your errors? Ever read the Tao of
> Jeet Kune Do? The only person who can make you upset, is you. "Be like
> water, my friend."
First, none of you are my instructors in Marathon. You are merely more
experianced students. in TaeKwonDo, instructors DO praise you when you
do something right, and they DO critique you when you do something
wrong. More experianced students do sometimes to. But if a green belt
struggling to get his blue belt says to a high-ranking black belt "Sir,
could you help me on my form? I'm really trying hard, I practiced five
hours this weekend!", it would be incredibly rude for the black belt to
say "yeah right! I've never seen you practice. You're just a liar. I'll
believe you when you get that blue belt."
As for upsetting me, I never said I was upset. I said I didn't like
James' comments. I don't like that there are poor kids starving in India
either, but I'm not constantly brought to tears by it.
Forrest Cameranesi
desperate...@must.be.taken (Courtney Evans) wrote:
The answers to most of these questions are "yes". We have an incredibly
detailed design doc accounting for the feasability limitations the
programmers have set forth; a prioritized production schedule where the
extraneous bits we may need to drop are the last ones to be made; we
have a very good producer and general whip-cracker, Russ; we know how to
get talent, and have already gotten a few new employees through these
methods; we're creating our own general-purpose hardware-only engine,
and yes it is modular; as for the business end of things, I'll just say
that yes we are talking to publishers. I won't say more because honestly
I'm not in on the business end that much - that's what we hired Russ and
Ethan for.
> These are all questions you should have answers to. They are the questions
> we should have asked at Doubleaught, and didn't. If you want to know
> anything about any of these areas, I'd be glad to explain more.
I'll make sure to keep your name around if we have any questions.
C Lund
<thoma...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> When I was working on Dissent, I knew that my strength was mapmaking
> and term writing. When it comes to sounds and graphics, I have no
> skills.
As a side note form somebody who's been through this process; if you lack
the skills needed to complete your project, it might be better to take the
time to learn those skills yourself rather than try to recruit somebody
else to do it for you. That way, you'll not only avoid having to go
through the double hassle of first finding the recruit needed to do so and
so and then preventing said recruit from flaking on you*, but you'll also
be left with a new skill when your project is done. Of course, having
released Dissent, you already know this. ;)
A small group of determined nutters is better than a large group with
revolving-door membership. Much better.
(When I started working on Chimera/Rubicon, I didn't know how to use
Photoshop, and I knew next to nothing about sound editing. (I was using
ClarisDraw to make textures fer chrissakes) Now I know both. And I'm sure
I've accumulated a dozen other skills I don't even know I have after doing
these things myself. I might not have made any money on Rubicon, but the
learning experience was priceless.)
*We once got hold of one promising 3d modeler. He had some really great
alternate s'pht renderings. Then we discovered that he'd just used
somebody else's renderings to get a place on the team... Echh.
C Lund
<cbor...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
> Yet, you have no complaints about the more passive, unproductive crop of
> inhabitants here.
That's because they aren't dumping on everybody else in here.
> Maybe if Loren would've paid more attention to artists
> desires, Aleph 1 might be worth something.
There are a lot of people who think Aleph One is worth a lot.
> > > People who are in the progress of making something, and boast without
> > > merit - are quite often setting themselves up for disaster.
> > And so are people who ask for help on this forum.
> You should be ashamed for having said that. I can't remember anybody
> asking for, and receiving more help than you.
Sure, and I'm grateful for it. But very little of that help came from JHT.
Andrew Glasgow
"They laughed at Galileo..." The proverb is somewhat musty.
--
| Andrew Glasgow <amg39(at)cornell.edu> |
| SCSI is *NOT* magic. There are *fundamental technical |
| reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young goat |
| to your SCSI chain now and then. -- John Woods |
IQ98
den...@bluesky.phreeow.net (Dennis Taylor) wrote:
>
> I hate to say it, but I suppose I agree with James here. If you
> want Unreal, you know where to find it. No amount of wishing is going to
> turn the venerable Marathon code into an all-singing, all-dancing
> general-purpose game engine.
>
That's the only intelligent thing I have heard said on agm in years. It is
thus guaranteed to be ignored.
BP
--
Happiness is a deep fryer
And a big fork
Nikolaus Wegner
small...@lowIQ.com (IQ98) wrote:
> That's the only intelligent thing I have heard said on agm in years. It is
> thus guaranteed to be ignored.
I didn't ignore it, my reply's around somewhere.
Dennis Taylor
You misunderstand me, sir. This isn't intended as an insult to
you personally; I'm just trying to point out that there's rather a "who
will bell the cat?" sort of problem here. It's easy to suggest neat
things to do with Marathon and 3D engines and such; it's quite another
thing to actually get them done. There's just not a lot of point to
making up Marathon wish lists unless you're actually willing to
implement your ideas.
This line of reasoning dovetails neatly with the recent thread
about scenario design, I suppose.
_________________________________________________________________________
Dennis Taylor "Anyone whose days are all the same and free from
den...@funkplanet.com want inhabits eternity of a sort." - Peter Hoeg
_________________________________________________________________________
PGP Fingerprint: E8D6 9670 4FBD EEC3 6C6B 810B 2B30 E529 51BD 7B90
Nikolaus Wegner
den...@bluesky.phreeow.net (Dennis Taylor) wrote:
> You misunderstand me, sir.
I didn't mean that YOU called me lazy and incompetent, just that I AM
lazy and incompetent. The problem I see is that Quake already
incorporates the wish lists (multiplayer, 3d movable 3d geometry,
models, scripting language), but people just say "it isn't marathon",
"marathon [can't or won't ever] do that" ?!! (how is that not an
argument for moving somewhere else?), and "if we wanted Quake we'd play
Quake". I say use what's available, and what's practically a standard
that everyone else measures by, but whatever.
Loren Petrich
<cl...@notam.SPAM.AND.DIE.uio.no> wrote:
> In article <cborowiec-E24B6...@news1.southeast.rr.com>, Borzz
> <cbor...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
> > Maybe if Loren would've paid more attention to artists
> > desires, Aleph 1 might be worth something.
>
> There are a lot of people who think Aleph One is worth a lot.
Which brings to mind the question of what I am supposed to be
implementing. Here is what I'm currently up to:
* Trying to get monitor-resolution switching to work properly (I've
ripped out that troublesome DrawSprocket, but its substitute, the
Display Manager, has a horrible mess of an API.
* Working on 3D-model support. I've created a GLUT-based shell for a
test app, and I'm now working on loading models in the the
Alias|Wavefront format.
* Working on my M1-to-A1 converter. I've done physics, shapes, and
sounds; I now have to do the maps.
* Improving a Tomb Raider level viewer
* Possibly contributing to the Quake-viewing PakRat project
Aaron Davies
I expect Borzz is still pissed you won't do background music.
--
__ __
/ ) / )
/--/ __. __ ________ / / __. , __o _ _
/ (_(_/|_/ (_(_) / / <_ /__/_(_/|_\/ <__</_/_)_
James Hastings-Trew
Davies at aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com wrote on 6/23/01 12:42 PM:
> I expect Borzz is still pissed you won't do background music.
You can specify background music in MML, on a per level basis.
Loren Petrich
Aaron Davies <aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com> wrote:
> I expect Borzz is still pissed you won't do background music.
I've added support for it -- you create a MML TEXT resource that you
add to a level; it will point to the desired music files.
IQ98
<pet...@netcom.com> wrote:
> Which brings to mind the question of what I am supposed to be
> implementing. Here is what I'm currently up to:
>
> * Trying to get monitor-resolution switching to work properly (I've
> ripped out that troublesome DrawSprocket, but its substitute, the
> Display Manager, has a horrible mess of an API.
>
> * Working on 3D-model support. I've created a GLUT-based shell for a
> test app, and I'm now working on loading models in the the
> Alias|Wavefront format.
>
> * Working on my M1-to-A1 converter. I've done physics, shapes, and
> sounds; I now have to do the maps.
>
> * Improving a Tomb Raider level viewer
>
> * Possibly contributing to the Quake-viewing PakRat project
oh gawd, resolution switching. How have I lived wthout it?
3D-model support - because aleph dull currently doesn't have enough
polygons to push.
Tomb raider level viewer ...<stifles collossal yawn> will this make lara
appear in sensible shoes and a bra?
gawd, should I go on?
IQ98
materiel - I lost track. Somebody please fill in the blanks. I think there
was a converter that would convert from one dead game to another, only he
was going to redo all the maps.
IQ98
<ji...@nospamhome.com> wrote:
I now look forwards to a world off crappy music and ripped-off MP3s.
Andrew Glasgow
small...@lowIQ.com (IQ98) wrote:
No. Kill yourself now.
Loren Petrich
IQ98 <small...@lowIQ.com> wrote:
> oh gawd, resolution switching. How have I lived wthout it?
Moo has a resolution-switch feature, and I had tried to implement it
with the DrawSprocket, with less-than-successful results. However, I've
now done that successfully.
> 3D-model support - because aleph dull currently doesn't have enough
> polygons to push.
And what leads you to that conclusion?
> Tomb raider level viewer ...<stifles collossal yawn> will this make lara
> appear in sensible shoes and a bra?
What would you consider sensible shoes? I think that hiking boots
are *very* sensible shoes for someone who does what she does -- do you
expect her to be wearing high heels?
And how do you come to the conclusion you did about Lara and bras?
Loren Petrich
IQ98 <small...@lowIQ.com> wrote:
> there was something I forgot to mock...but amongst all the mockable
> materiel - I lost track. Somebody please fill in the blanks. I think there
> was a converter that would convert from one dead game to another, only he
> was going to redo all the maps.
Grow up and get a life.
C Lund
small...@lowIQ.com (IQ98) wrote:
> oh gawd, resolution switching. How have I lived wthout it?
> 3D-model support - because aleph dull currently doesn't have enough
> polygons to push.
> Tomb raider level viewer ...<stifles collossal yawn> will this make lara
> appear in sensible shoes and a bra?
> gawd, should I go on?
Get lost you stupid troll.
IQ98
<pet...@netcom.com> wrote:
> Grow up and get a life.
This is rich. A (purportedly) grown man (and the "purportedly") applies to
both the "grown" and the "man" parts) who obsesses over the attire of a
video game character is advising someone else to get a life? Oh, I am
slain.
BP out.
IQ98
cl...@notam.SPAM.AND.DIE.uio.no (C Lund) wrote:
Oh, C Lunk, how could you treat an old friend so! it's me, your old
admirer Boren Petsnatch!
Andrew Glasgow
small...@lowIQ.com (IQ98) wrote:
"I know what you're thinking. Did he have two killfiles or only one...
Well, the question you gotta ask yourself is, Do I feel lucky? Well, do
you, *PLONK*
Loren Petrich
IQ98 <small...@lowIQ.com> wrote:
> In article <230620012356166402%pet...@netcom.com>, Loren Petrich
> <pet...@netcom.com> wrote:
> > Grow up and get a life.
> This is rich. A (purportedly) grown man (and the "purportedly") applies to
> both the "grown" and the "man" parts) who obsesses over the attire of a
> video game character is advising someone else to get a life? Oh, I am
> slain.
Same to you.
MrVacBob
"Boren Petsnatch" would be a good name for a cartoon villain.
MrVacBob
> > polygons to push.
>
> And what leads you to that conclusion?
Hey, this might actually be a compliment... It means Aleph isn't
running anywhere near capacity.
MrVacBob
> in article 190620012211102199%thoma...@earthlink.net, Thomas Reed at
> thoma...@earthlink.net wrote on 6/19/01 9:09 PM:
>
> > In other words, shut it. You've got absolutely no position to make
> > such a statement.
>
> Call it an educated guess. See www.sphidia.com for more details.
>
> > Why did TI bother to create a new set of Juggernaut images?
> > Was it because you were dumb at the time and didn't know any better?
>
> Because Dan Clancy wanted to. An expression of creativity? Take your pick.
> At least it was something new.
Hmm... I think you have multiple personalities. You aren't like this
on marathon-devel. Wait, maybe that's why someone wanted you to leave.
MrVacBob
> In article <200620011454402739%thoma...@earthlink.net>, Thomas Reed
> <thoma...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <B755802C.3F3C%ji...@nospamhome.com>, James Hastings-Trew
> > <ji...@nospamhome.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > In other words, shut it. You've got absolutely no position to make
> > > > such a statement.
> > >
> > > Call it an educated guess. See www.sphidia.com for more details.
> >
> > Sphidia have to do with Eternal? Perhaps you're upset that Forrest is
> > "co-founder and Creative Director of Sphidia Software"?
>
> Doublaught had Randy Reddig (among other geniuses) and could not get
> Duality out the door. Sphidia has...Forrest Calamari, who, armed with the
> best level editor ever made, cannot get a decent marathon scenario out the
> door even after years of hype and bullshit.
>
> I'll wager a bottle of single-malt scotch gainst a pint of Mad Dog that
> the only time we ever hear of Sphidia is in some "whatever happened to"
> announcement.
>
> Boren Petsnatch
Let's take his Mad Dog and scotch, pour them in his hair, and set them on fire.