GM Negligence on Karana!
yamaha864
story of a player run newbie event which was raided and harassed
by high level players all while a GM sat there and watched.
http://silverdaggers.freehosting.net/trouble.html
Please note that I have contacted the Silver Daggers and
expressed my concerns. Do what you can to help stop this
treatment. Show your support by replying to this post. Thanks.
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Ratbert
--
Ratbert, Magician (Unity's Might) ZONE: news
<Erollisi Marr>
yamaha864 <yamaha86...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:304df054...@usw-ex0104-032.remarq.com...
Kay Anders
word-of-mouth. But I can tell ya, if someone was shouting in all caps all night
long in Freeport, I can't say I'd blame anyone for taking him out--repeatedly.
Especially if they'd asked him to stop. It could be these 50ish folks were
trying to instill peace and quiet.
Of course, it could also be that they're just dinks with no manners.
Either way, I've got the creeping suspicion that this is another case of,
"Players not willing to cooperate with other players," followed by a dose of,
"Run to the GM when things don't work instead of trying to talk."
And don't /t the GM; use /petition, that's what it's designd for. They're lucky
they got an answer.
Jason Koloseike
Your either there to do business or you're fighting in the arena.
Frankly I found the Guide's stance appalling. Pulling a stunt like
this should have required an official warning against the offenders.
On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:38:55 GMT, Kay Anders
<k...@red-star.net.hates.spam> wrote:
>We don't have the full info presented on what happened before this; only
>word-of-mouth. But I can tell ya, if someone was shouting in all caps all night
>long in Freeport, I can't say I'd blame anyone for taking him out--repeatedly.
>Especially if they'd asked him to stop. It could be these 50ish folks were
>trying to instill peace and quiet.
>
> stuff deleted ...
Dorian Brytestar
the GM but the people were being jerks. Although, they do pay their money too, and
the arena is a public place. sooo.....
--
Dorian Brytestar
Lvl 48 High Elf Cleric of Tunare
Povar
"yamaha864" <yamaha86...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:304df054...@usw-ex0104-032.remarq.com...
Kay Anders
> I might agree, but this was in West Freeport, not a combat heavy zone.
> Your either there to do business or you're fighting in the arena.
Unless you're level 5 or under... Or buying spells or stacks of regents... Or trying
to talk with a friend, or quest, or--heaven forbid--trying to do trade skills.
Shouting in all caps at length may not deserve instant death, but can you blame
anyone for being irritated--IF that WAS the case?
> Frankly I found the Guide's stance appalling. Pulling a stunt like
> this should have required an official warning against the offenders.
GM's aren't babysitters... They and Guides need to help players resolve things
themselves, regardless. If they just come in and make one group happy all the time,
they're not doing anything to advance that goal.
kid_do...@my-deja.com
Jason.K...@cognos.com (Jason Koloseike) wrote:
> I might agree, but this was in West Freeport, not a combat heavy zone.
> Your either there to do business or you're fighting in the arena.
>
> this should have required an official warning against the offenders.
To the best of my knowledge no player characters get to own real
estate. The high levels had just as much right to be in the arena as
the tourney folk. It was rude of them to start killing them. But then
again it's rude to shout to the entire zone in all caps. Also the Arena
is a PVP area that has no restrictions based on level difference. You
are made aware that you are in a PVP area in the arena when you walk
into it. It's essentially at your own risk. Why should the GM give
warnings to the high levels for using the area within the given rules
(with the possible exception of corpse camping). Not saying what the
high levels did was nice...but doesn't sound like what they did was
against the rules of engagement verant set up in the arena.
My thoughts anyway
Mozmonar part-time 38th level Wizard
Brell
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Nan Wang
Jcsimm
level 50s were jerks. Karana is already very low in any events so the GMs
should have stepped in. The 50s were killing newbie players. That is
inexcusable and tantamount to beating up children. I find their actions
disgraceful. This is a game and thus people are here to have fun playing not
at another players expense. The GMs are supposed to stop harrassment which
this was. Read the Karana board on EQVault where one of the jerks brags about
killing the newbies because he was bored with playing EQ. These are the kind
of assholes that spoil the game for others.
Sir Ravaren Lawmaker
Paladin of the 35th Rank
Stormbringers
Karana
Anthony
Dorian Brytestar <ri...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:sbocpr...@corp.supernews.com...
> Not quite negligence, more of a group of people being assholes. Not
entirely up to
> the GM but the people were being jerks. Although, they do pay their money
too, and
> the arena is a public place. sooo.....
Yes, but their reasoning is specious. They say the low levels can't takeover
the arena, but tacitly allow the level 50's to take over the arena. They say
the level 50s pay so should be allowed access, but allow the level 50s to
deny access to the others. Quite a catch-2 situation.
Canticle
yamaha864 wrote:
> Please note that I have contacted the Silver Daggers and
> expressed my concerns. Do what you can to help stop this
> treatment. Show your support by replying to this post. Thanks.
Please ask the people who ran this event to contact me.
The guild I head on Karana is one of the largest on the Shard, and we've
currently got about a dozen 50th players and as many above level 45,
with the majority being in the 35-45 range.
The next time they want to run an event we'd be more than happy to
provide 'security'.
See how much fun the guy has when he's power nuked by 3 50th level
Wizards and assorted Druids and Paladins.
Jeff-boy
Nan Wang
Then the high levels harrassed him back and he didn't like it.
Gigem
> level 50s were jerks. Karana is already very low in any events so the GMs
> should have stepped in. The 50s were killing newbie players. That is
Exactly right.
The -exception- would be if indeed there were just tons and tons of
shouts messing up everyone's reading. And if the high levels
respectfully requested that they quit shouting and keep it to just area
chat, and they refused, maybe ungracefully? Who knows. They played
their music so loud the whole neighborhood heard it. That's not too
polite regardless.
(though I say that ignoring the fact of the wonderful troll run a few
months back where I shouted with glee from Oggok to Faydark)
Dorian Brytestar
everyone involved and there is no real easy answer. We can say that the lvl 50 guys
were harassing the lower level people by not allowing them to hold an event in the
arena, but at the same time, the lvl 50 people could say the same thing. All-in-all,
I would hate to be in the GMs shoes or the lower leveled peoples shoes, and I would
not ever be in the lvl 50 peoples shoes, what they did , I feel, is just Wrong.
--
Dorian Brytestar
Lvl 48 High Elf Cleric of Tunare
Povar
news:95187159...@news1.bigplanet.com...
:
: Dorian Brytestar <ri...@nospam.com> wrote in message
:
Dorian Brytestar
them know that you will support them next time they need a bit of "muscle" to get
these jerks under control. I love it!
(BTW, is Canticle your game name so they can contact you?)
--
Dorian Brytestar
Lvl 48 High Elf Cleric of Tunare
Povar
"Canticle" <cant...@escape.ca> wrote in message news:38BC4DEA...@escape.ca...
:
:
Canticle
Dorian Brytestar wrote:
> Now THIS is the type of action that I love.. Thank you for coming out and letting
> them know that you will support them next time they need a bit of "muscle" to get
> these jerks under control. I love it!
> (BTW, is Canticle your game name so they can contact you?)
I go by Hassan Nasir in game, but you can also contact Lubon, who tends
to be on during more reasonable hours than I am =).
It works both ways too...in the past, we've had problems with members of
our Guild who decided because they weren't being watched they could get
away with stupidities. They found out quickly that being part of a guild
meant that people know who to go to with their problems. Said problem
members are no longer members, and their reputations were shot with ALL
the guilds we associate with.
Jeff-boy
Anthony
> I agree completely, as I was typing that I was trying to think of how to
be fair to
> everyone involved and there is no real easy answer. We can say that the
lvl 50 guys
> were harassing the lower level people by not allowing them to hold an
event in the
> arena, but at the same time, the lvl 50 people could say the same thing.
All-in-all,
> I would hate to be in the GMs shoes or the lower leveled peoples shoes,
and I would
> not ever be in the lvl 50 peoples shoes, what they did , I feel, is just
Wrong.
Well, to be honest and we only have the words of one side at the current
time...if there was corpse camping by the level 50 people which is
considered harassment, then action should have been taken by teh Guides to
remove those players from the area. That is a black and white issue.
The other issue is far harder to fix. Do you alloow the higher level players
to monopolize an area for a time by force because they can or do you allow
the lower level people to monopolize the area for a time because they are
holding an event. I think there the GMs and Guides have to make a judgement
call as to what is better for the server. To have high level people taking
advantage of lower level people for their own amusement or an event being
held for the broader amusement of a number of people. Businesses make these
judgement calls every day and it seems time for Verant Customer Service to
start doing the same.
Anthony
Nan Wang <nw...@shore.net> wrote in message
news:C5Yu4.284$8s1....@news.shore.net...
> Actually, the way I read it, he was the one who harrassed other players
first.
> Then the high levels harrassed him back and he didn't like it.
That would be the case only if that were the reason for the high level
people disrupting the event which would have been evident. Since it wasn't,
as evidenced by the tells from the high level people involved, one was on
the order of 'you have to admit it was funny' indicates it was for personal
amusement. Their "complaint" about shouting came much after the event as an
apparent afterthought, probably to save face.
Anthony
> estate. The high levels had just as much right to be in the arena as
> the tourney folk. It was rude of them to start killing them. But then
> again it's rude to shout to the entire zone in all caps. Also the Arena
> is a PVP area that has no restrictions based on level difference. You
> are made aware that you are in a PVP area in the arena when you walk
> into it. It's essentially at your own risk. Why should the GM give
> warnings to the high levels for using the area within the given rules
> (with the possible exception of corpse camping). Not saying what the
> high levels did was nice...but doesn't sound like what they did was
> against the rules of engagement verant set up in the arena.
You imply an attempt to "own" which isn't the case. It was an attempt to
use. You also make the same mistake Verants GM (or Guide) did which is
denying the right of the lower level players to monopolize the arena but
allowing the higher level players monopolize the arena by killing the same
people over and over again who are trying to make use of it. IN the instance
where two paying groups of customers come to a disagreement like this, it is
Sustomer service who has to make a judgement call. Restaurants, for one,
have to make a judgement call whenever one customer complains about another
customers smoking or noise or smell as to whom to move. Most businesses
don't feel that just because you are a paying customer you have an instant
right to annoy or disrupt another paying customer.
kid_do...@my-deja.com
"Anthony" <equ...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > To the best of my knowledge no player characters get to own real
> > estate. The high levels had just as much right to be in the arena as
> > the tourney folk. It was rude of them to start killing them. But
then
> > again it's rude to shout to the entire zone in all caps. Also the
Arena
> > is a PVP area that has no restrictions based on level difference.
You
> > are made aware that you are in a PVP area in the arena when you walk
> > into it. It's essentially at your own risk. Why should the GM give
> > warnings to the high levels for using the area within the given
rules
> > (with the possible exception of corpse camping). Not saying what the
> > high levels did was nice...but doesn't sound like what they did was
> > against the rules of engagement verant set up in the arena.
>
> You imply an attempt to "own" which isn't the case. It was an attempt
to
> use. You also make the same mistake Verants GM (or Guide) did which is
> denying the right of the lower level players to monopolize the arena
but
> allowing the higher level players monopolize the arena by killing the
same
> people over and over again who are trying to make use of it.
The high level players weren't trying to make the low level players
leave. Therefore they can't really be considered to be monopolizing the
Arena. Besides listen to yourself...it's the Arena man...the epitomy of
a "might makes right/survival of the fittest" area. Yes if you are
strong enough to stake a claim on the arena then the only way that
claim should be taken away is by another more capable player(s)
knocking that person off the top. If they aren't strong enough to hold
the arena then they have no right to claim it. They can ask nicely for
the high levels to leave...they can attempt to bribe them...they can
attempt to fight them off...but they can't reasonably expect a GM to
step in and move these people out of there simply because they want it.
IN the instance
> where two paying groups of customers come to a disagreement like
this, it is
> Sustomer service who has to make a judgement call. Restaurants, for
one,
> have to make a judgement call whenever one customer complains about
another
> customers smoking or noise or smell as to whom to move. Most
businesses
> don't feel that just because you are a paying customer you have an
instant
> right to annoy or disrupt another paying customer.
We aren't talking about a restaurant here. We're talking about a last
man standing arena (PVP) area. An area where the only rules that exist
are the ones you are strong enough to enforce. I feel bad for the guy
getting his parade rained on. I don't think the GM should have made the
high levels leave. There's no reason he/she should have. Jesus can't
people be adults and try to solve their own problems before running to
tell dad. Pathetic.
Moz
Anthony
> to
> > use. You also make the same mistake Verants GM (or Guide) did which is
> > denying the right of the lower level players to monopolize the arena
> but
> > allowing the higher level players monopolize the arena by killing the
> same
> > people over and over again who are trying to make use of it.
>
> The high level players weren't trying to make the low level players
> leave. Therefore they can't really be considered to be monopolizing the
> Arena. Besides listen to yourself...it's the Arena man...the epitomy of
> a "might makes right/survival of the fittest" area. Yes if you are
> strong enough to stake a claim on the arena then the only way that
> claim should be taken away is by another more capable player(s)
> knocking that person off the top. If they aren't strong enough to hold
> the arena then they have no right to claim it. They can ask nicely for
> the high levels to leave...they can attempt to bribe them...they can
> attempt to fight them off...but they can't reasonably expect a GM to
> step in and move these people out of there simply because they want it.
Um..if you kill someone then continue to do it over and over, what are you
trying to do? Furthermore, if every level 20+ player on a server decide to
take over all newbie hunting areas on the server and kill all NPCs there,
might makes right and they should be allowed?
> IN the instance
> > where two paying groups of customers come to a disagreement like
> this, it is
> > Sustomer service who has to make a judgement call. Restaurants, for
> one,
> > have to make a judgement call whenever one customer complains about
> another
> > customers smoking or noise or smell as to whom to move. Most
> businesses
> > don't feel that just because you are a paying customer you have an
> instant
> > right to annoy or disrupt another paying customer.
>
> We aren't talking about a restaurant here. We're talking about a last
> man standing arena (PVP) area. An area where the only rules that exist
> are the ones you are strong enough to enforce. I feel bad for the guy
> getting his parade rained on. I don't think the GM should have made the
> high levels leave. There's no reason he/she should have. Jesus can't
> people be adults and try to solve their own problems before running to
> tell dad. Pathetic.
This is not the WWF Raw show. EQ IS a business and a comparison to a
restaurant is not unfounded. Entering the arena is not supposed to mean you
are acccepting anyone who wants a free for all. They were put there to allow
for limited and organized PvP combat due to the games inherent non-PvP
design and should be run as such by the Customer Service staff. They are
called Arenas and not death zones for a reason. One customer should have the
common courtesy to allow other customers (who were there first mind you) the
use of in game facilities. If one customer does not have such courtesy, the
customer service staff should take a stance to prevent them from
interfering. That is business, but in EverQuest it will not happen since a
majority of the active Customer Support staff are not in the employ of the
company but are unpaid volunteers and hence have zero stake in its success.
Roadkill
>leave. Therefore they can't really be considered to be monopolizing the
>Arena. Besides listen to yourself...it's the Arena man...the epitomy of
>a "might makes right/survival of the fittest" area. Yes if you are
>strong enough to stake a claim on the arena then the only way that
>claim should be taken away is by another more capable player(s)
>knocking that person off the top. If they aren't strong enough to hold
>the arena then they have no right to claim it. They can ask nicely for
>the high levels to leave...they can attempt to bribe them...they can
>attempt to fight them off...but they can't reasonably expect a GM to
>step in and move these people out of there simply because they want it.
Nothing wrong with any of that. Like you said, it's a PvP arena. An arena
that gives people the ability to attack anyone of any level, with warnings
sent to your chat box to make you aware of this. But what they DID do that
should have made the GM jump to their aid, was "corpse camping". The
corpse campers should have been issued warnings for their actions. Of
course the GM would have to be there and witness this.
D. J. McCarthy
>[I]t's a PvP arena. An arena
>that gives people the ability to attack anyone of any level, with warnings
>sent to your chat box to make you aware of this. But what they DID do that
>should have made the GM jump to their aid, was "corpse camping".
Okay, here's what I don't get. And it may be because I've never spent more
than 20 seconds in a PvP area.
The whole reason to "corpse camp" is to wait until the dead character comes
back and loots his corpse, so you can kill him again and get another item
off his body, right? So why wouldn't the dead character just use the
/corpse command to drag his corpse OUT of the PvP area before looting?
Corpse camping (on a blue server, at least) sounds like it cann be trivially
defeated.
--
DJM
Roadkill
>comes back and loots his corpse, so you can kill him again and get
>another item off his body, right? So why wouldn't the dead character
>just use the /corpse command to drag his corpse OUT of the PvP area
>before looting?
If it's close enough to the edge of the non-PvP area yeah. But if they
were holding an event there I doubt they were all lined up close to the
edges. The ones doing all the fighting that got area effected by that
caster were most likely all in the middle of the arena. Qeynos arena is
small enough that they could do it, but I think Freeport's is a lot bigger
than that one. It's been a while since I poked my head into that arena, so
I can't be totally sure.
Anthony
more
> than 20 seconds in a PvP area.
>
comes
> back and loots his corpse, so you can kill him again and get another item
> off his body, right? So why wouldn't the dead character just use the
> /corpse command to drag his corpse OUT of the PvP area before looting?
>
trivially
> defeated.
Still have to get near it to /corpse. If you have to enter the PvP area
since these level 50's could kill you, if you are low enough level, in one
spell they could easily kill you before you can drag it. OFten corpse
camping is not to gain another item off you. It is simply to cause you to
again have to get back to your corpse from your bind point. Often on teh PvP
servers it is done even before you have a chance to loot, especially if they
know you are bound a zone or two away.
kid_do...@my-deja.com
> Um..if you kill someone then continue to do it over and over, what
are you
> trying to do? Furthermore, if every level 20+ player on a server
decide to
> take over all newbie hunting areas on the server and kill all NPCs
there,
> might makes right and they should be allowed?
They were prolly trying to get those people out of the arena and/or
piss them off. Doesn't really matter though they were in the arena.
Taking over a newbie zone is quite different from taking over an arena.
The rules of engagement are quite different and not really applicable.
Hmm Arena combat and you feel the comparison to a restaruant is closer
than to a WWF show? Where the fuck have you been eating man? Jerry
Springer House of Pancakes
Entering the arena is not supposed to mean you
> are acccepting anyone who wants a free for all.
Wrong it obviously is exactly this. If you want to setup rules of
engagement with the people there that's fine but they aren't
specifically bound by in game rules to stick to them. Nor are they
required to abide by yours or anyone elses rules (save Verant's) to be
present in the arena unless you got the muscle to enforce those rules.
They were put there to allow
> for limited and organized PvP combat due to the games inherent non-PvP
> design and should be run as such by the Customer Service staff.
You just pulled that out of your ass. It states nothing of the like in
any documentation for the game and the setup of in game rules seems to
contradict that as does the lack of intervention of the GM. Perhaps you
like the notion of a friendly little arena where GMs can come hold your
hand and wipe your nose for you but that doesn't seem to be what verant
was going for in their arena design.
They are
> called Arenas and not death zones for a reason.
They likewise aren't called playgrounds for a reason.
One customer should have the
> common courtesy to allow other customers (who were there first mind
you) the
> use of in game facilities. If one customer does not have such
courtesy, the
> customer service staff should take a stance to prevent them from
> interfering. That is business, but in EverQuest it will not happen
since a
> majority of the active Customer Support staff are not in the employ
of the
> company but are unpaid volunteers and hence have zero stake in its
success.
Wrong. You enter the arena you assume the risk.
Moz
kid_do...@my-deja.com
> Nothing wrong with any of that. Like you said, it's a PvP arena. An
arena
> that gives people the ability to attack anyone of any level, with
warnings
> sent to your chat box to make you aware of this. But what they DID
do that
> corpse campers should have been issued warnings for their actions.
Of
> course the GM would have to be there and witness this.
I believe I stated in my first post that the corpse camping was the
only thing the GM should have done something about. If I didn't my
mistake as I meant to do just that. I agree the corpse camping is a no
no. But then if they reenter the arena after they have looted their
corpses...fool me once shame on you...
Anthony
> > restaurant is not unfounded.
Um...hello...I'm comparing a business to another business. EQ to
restaurants, movie theatres, etc. All are places where the public is brought
in to take part in an activity. I figured that would be EVIDENT but
apparently I was mistaken.
> Hmm Arena combat and you feel the comparison to a restaruant is closer
> than to a WWF show? Where the fuck have you been eating man? Jerry
> Springer House of Pancakes
>
> Entering the arena is not supposed to mean you
> > are acccepting anyone who wants a free for all.
>
> Wrong it obviously is exactly this. If you want to setup rules of
> engagement with the people there that's fine but they aren't
> specifically bound by in game rules to stick to them. Nor are they
> required to abide by yours or anyone elses rules (save Verant's) to be
> present in the arena unless you got the muscle to enforce those rules.
And Verants rule should be that people holding events to INCLUDE other
players take precedence over players trying to disrupt those events for
their own self gratification. Just as I would be in trouble by the
management for blowing smoke in you and your groups face in a restaurant or
standing in front of you in a Movie theatre. There is no written rule that I
can't but they take action against customers who are disrupting other
customers for no other reason than to disrupt them. EverQuest is, hello, a
business which, lookeee there, brings many customers into one place. NO
other business that does that then allows those customers to run roughshod
over other customers. Verant's employees should be taking action when they
do that.
The caveat: This will NOT happen in Everquest because there is NO customer
service so this whole discussion is MOOT. Guides are not employees. GMs are
only on a few hours a day and there is only one per server, with a few
wanderers, so Verant does not have even one paid employee on any server for
the entire time it is in operation and when it does have a paid employee
there most often has only one for up to 2000 or more customers. Hence
Verant's (and every other online games stance) to allow customers to do
whatever they want. It's not right and allows one customer to interfere with
another with no fear of reprisals. Look at training to remove other
customers from an area, bug exploiting, and corpse camping. Groups have it
down to a science knowing that the few CS personnel have to see them do it
so you do one thing a few times then move on to do it again somewhere else
or have another group member do it a few times.
> They were put there to allow
> > for limited and organized PvP combat due to the games inherent non-PvP
> > design and should be run as such by the Customer Service staff.
>
> You just pulled that out of your ass. It states nothing of the like in
> any documentation for the game and the setup of in game rules seems to
> contradict that as does the lack of intervention of the GM. Perhaps you
> like the notion of a friendly little arena where GMs can come hold your
> hand and wipe your nose for you but that doesn't seem to be what verant
> was going for in their arena design.
Um..no..that is why they were put there and why there is no level cap. To
allow for combat between small groups of players in what is a non-PvP game.
Duel only allows for two player combat and isn't suitable for even small
groups.
An FYI. Your crude comments draw this discussion to a close. I won't be
bothering to reply to you in the future.