Discussion:Fixed Spawn Points vs Random
Mark S
consider the #1 design problem with EQ today: named mobs spawning at
fixed locations. I understand the rationale behind it, and while I
think the intent was good, I believe it cannot not work in the MMORPG
environment. It is also the root of the camping/farming/kill stealing
problems which are the source of endless complaints, frustrations and
proposed changes today. Changing items to lore and no-drop, lengthening
spawn times, implementing a yield rule, proposing a no exp=no loot rule;
they all seek to treat the symptoms (camping/farming) without addressing
the cause (fixed spawns).
The rationale sounds good: adventure through a dungeon, encountering
tougher and tougher foes until to faces the dread foozle with the magic
pointy stick, dispatch the beast, grab the treasure and move on. Pen &
Paper RPG's, fantasy book, and many CRPG's use the formula exhaustively
and it works. However, in EQ it fails.
Why? Simply put, because the action is repeatable, or to state it
another way, no one moves on after killing the foozle. The foozle will
be back with another pointy magic stick if the players wait around long
enough, and those pointy sticks are worth a LOT in game (and out if you
look at eBay). It is the "path of least resistance" to getting good
magic gear for item farmers. It may take a long time, and you may have
to kill steal and annoy other players to do it, but it WORKS to get item
Z. It's like an old basic program
10 Go to point X.
20 Wait for critter Y to spawn
30 Kill critter Y.
40 If corpse of Y contains item Z go to 50, else go to 20
50 If item Z is Lore, go to 70, if item Z is No-Drop go to 60, else go
to 20
60 Do not loot item, attempt to sell within loot screen, If item Z is
sold goto 20, else destroy item Z, go to 20
70 Gate to best selling point; sell item Z; go to 10
And just like a bad basic program, it never ends.
What I would like to see is simple to do, and has no real downside
except to item farmers. Remove the fixed spawn location on critter Y.
It doesn't have to be completely random where it spawns; even upping it
to 5 spots in the zone instead of just 1 would do the trick.
What does it do? It levels the playing field. Nowadays, if you want a
specific item, be it for a quest, personal use, or to sell, you have to
camp the spawn point b/c there is simply no other place to get the
item. If you don't want to camp you have zero chance of getting the
item unless you buy it. But you can't even do that reliably b/c some
items are no drop, or have such a high value that people only trade for
them not sell for money (and of course if you won't camp for item Z, why
would you camp item A, B or C to trade for a Z?). So, for many items in
the game, the "adventuring" player is out of luck.
With random spawn points, the players who move through the zone
ostensibly "adventuring" have just as good a chance of finding critter Y
as people who would rather "camp" in one room for hours. Plus, if you
don't know where critter Y spawns, how can you camp them anyway? The
"high level caster kill stealers" everyone loves to complain about wont
like this idea b/c they must move about an area to find critter Y, which
actually entails risk *gasp*. Guild's wont be able to set up rotations
to get item Z for each and every guild member b/c you can't camp a whole
zone. Ebay farmer will see their profit margins shrink as their
inventory of sellable items dwindles :-)
Potential issue: tracking. Yes, players in outdoor zones with tracking
do have an advantage to finding named mobs. I have no problem with
that. Either make tracking useless indoor (which I think it is pretty
much now) or you could make named mobs not show on it. Personally I
don't think any changes would be necessary.
Well let's here some discussion on this. Does anyone think the current
system is preferable? If so why? Did I miss some potential problems?
Let's hear some ideas. Right now, EQ actually encourages camping by it's
design (hell, the "yield rule" is specifically designed to help campers
so long as they are the right levels); something I thought the guys a
Verant did NOT want. If they want people moving about and adventuring,
tweak the game so that is the "path of least resistance". Treat the
illness, not the symptoms.
Mark S.
Zerxes of Rathe
Rollin Severance
the dirk and the dwarven tunic and the screaming mace, (I had to buy the
dirk).I cant kill Dvinn but I can get Crush as long as no one steals him. I
rarely have a problem with the warlord because he has a random spawn loc.. I
can get enough damage before a KSing wiz wants it.
Mark S wrote in message <37EFDA21...@benchmark-systems.com>...
Jakkan
have often wondered why it hasen't been that way from the beginning. Other
than some form of programming limitation, I can't conceive of any reason why
they implemented the game with fixed spawn points. It appears that it's
only benefit is to those who wish to camp for items. Is there something I
have missed as well? Let me know.
Jakkan
Mark S <ma...@benchmark-systems.com> wrote in message
news:37EFDA21...@benchmark-systems.com...
Jim Kennedy
Mark S wrote:
> they all seek to treat the symptoms (camping/farming) without addressing
> the cause (fixed spawns)....
I dont buy into the random spawn idea, because of the above statement.
The cause isnt fixed spawns. Its too many people, on too few servers
chasing too few items. More servers, character xfer (in a limited
orderly fashion), and more items of equal value on different spawns. So
instead of just jboots, we have kboots, lboots and mboots, all in
different parts of the world.
Tonik
Biggwin
big items on named creatures. The named creatures should be parts of quest
and some items should be quest items only. For example the j boots, this is
somewhat how the quest should go:
The boots should have a level restriction on them, you cant wear or use the
item till you reach a certain level. The actual boots should be no drop so
there is no selling on ebay! To help the quest be level based you have to
actually get the quest from a named NPC. For example you would have to be
level 12 to talk to the originator of the quest and get a no drop note
saying you have to prove you deserve to wear the boots of a traveler. This
note would say you have to get a collection from around the world. For
example: You have to go collect belts from Crushbone, a common drop item.
Then you have to give three belts to a named NPC somewhere in crushbone with
this note. When you give the named NPC the belts and note you get a belt
collection and another note. The next note sends you to Kerra Island on the
other side of the world to get three catfisher tails. Deliver the tails and
note to a named NPC on Kerra Island and your quest resumes on another part
of the world with another note. So in order to earn the J boots you have to
travel and do some killing and all the notes are no drop as well as the
boots. So once you have received all of the collections take them back to
the named NPC that the quest originated and presto J BOOTS. Yes you could
take some short cuts by doing an auction and buying the belts but if you
make it so the items come off of characters that are your level or a groups
level well you are there so take some time kill some things and get some
exp.
Now this is just how one such quest should go. The quests should be
different for ever item. Gator Skin legging should involve killing the
Ancient Croc and taking an item like Ancient Gator Skin and a no drop note
to a NPC tailor to earn your Gator Skin Legging. All items required for the
quest completion like Ancient Gator Skin should be a common drop to prevent
camping and the note should be given around the level that you could take on
the Croc with a group or wait awhile longer if you like playing by yourself.
Mark S <ma...@benchmark-systems.com> wrote in message
news:37EFDA21...@benchmark-systems.com...
> I like to open a thread for some substantive discussion on what I
> consider the #1 design problem with EQ today: named mobs spawning at
> fixed locations. I understand the rationale behind it, and while I
> think the intent was good, I believe it cannot not work in the MMORPG
> environment. It is also the root of the camping/farming/kill stealing
> problems which are the source of endless complaints, frustrations and
> proposed changes today. Changing items to lore and no-drop, lengthening
> spawn times, implementing a yield rule, proposing a no exp=no loot rule;
> they all seek to treat the symptoms (camping/farming) without addressing
Michael
Biggwin <big...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:UwUH3.560$Gy4....@news.uswest.net...
Jason Goff
in one location all the time, but having played P&P RPGs for about 20
years, it's normally the 'goal' of the expedition and they are located
in the crypt/hall of the damned/<insert your own location here> etc.
I can't see any reason why multiple random spawn spots can't be
achieved, but they can't be sequential (a la Gnoll Watchers at BB -
kill 'em by the tree, run up the hill, kill 'em on the hill, run back
to tree, repeat ad nauseam) because the sequence would be learnt in 5
seconds flat.
That said, _truly_ random spawns for all mobs would be even better in
the outdoor areas, making most "I'm guaranteed safe to sit here and
med" spots a bit more risky.
As I am only lvl 8 at the minute, camping of high level items is a
problem I haven't come across, but camping of critters is (Shouting
Gnolls in Qeynos is a good example). If they were truly random around
N Qeynos outdoor, then the newbies would have something to think about
to instead of the "don't go over there" approach.
That's my thoughts...
Kzzan of Qeynos
Wizard of the 3rd Circle
Bristlebane Server
(aka Jay)
In article <37EFDA21...@benchmark-systems.com>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jason Goff
don't suffer this so much as I am in the UK).
However, to know that I can go to loc x,y and wait for a guy to show
up, beat him up, loot his stuff, repeat ad infinitum seems a bit off
track. This wouldn't happen in (and I loathe to use the phrase) "real
life" (before everybody starts - I *know* they would stay dead !!)
I believe a limited number (6 or so) of random spawn locations
scattered logically (for the plot of the quest) round a zone would
alleviate the camping problem, not eradicate it. You'd just have 6
groups camping 6 spots.
The only true way to totally eliminate camping is something that I've
seen suggested here before. Item X is looted and cannot be looted by
that character again for a period of time, forcing the player to go off
and hunt another item. This way the campers/farmers would be forced to
move round instead of sat in the same spot for months on end.
I've only been playing EQ for about a month, I love the game - it's the
closest to P&P RPG I've ever seen, and it peeves me to see these
campers/farmers ruining it for the RPGers among us. Perhaps they
should have servers all to themselves, like the PKers :)
Good hunting.
Kzzan of Qeynos
Wizard of the 3rd Circle
Bristlebane Server
In article <37F001B7...@apk.net>,
Jim Kennedy <jken...@apk.net> wrote:
>
>
> Mark S wrote:
>
> > they all seek to treat the symptoms (camping/farming) without
addressing
> > the cause (fixed spawns)....
>
> I dont buy into the random spawn idea, because of the above statement.
>
> The cause isnt fixed spawns. Its too many people, on too few servers
> chasing too few items. More servers, character xfer (in a limited
> orderly fashion), and more items of equal value on different spawns.
So
> instead of just jboots, we have kboots, lboots and mboots, all in
> different parts of the world.
>
> Tonik
>
--
Mortwuk
Jim Kennedy <jken...@apk.net> wrote:
>
> I dont buy into the random spawn idea, because of the above statement.
>
> The cause isnt fixed spawns. Its too many people, on too few servers
> chasing too few items. More servers, character xfer (in a limited
> orderly fashion), and more items of equal value on different spawns.
So
> instead of just jboots, we have kboots, lboots and mboots, all in
> different parts of the world.
>
> Tonik
I agree that overpopulation is a problem, and so is having unique items
in only one place. But I totally fail to see how that negates the
random spawn idea. If you are saying that fixing over population and
adding a few secondary sources for items will address camping I don't
agree....it will just make more camps...the lines will shorten but the
fundamental anti-roleplaying aspects of camping will still exist, ebay
farming will exist, etc.
Additionally, I see some people suggest that the solution to camping is
to make it so everyone can easily get the items they want (placing lots
of places..no lines, one stop shopping, etc..) This brings up a whole
other problem that exists in camping. Item and power
proliferation/inflation and the death of uniqueness. If everyone can
get a ghoulbane then it isn't special. If everyone thinks they Need
Jboots to survive then haven't we just made jboots the standard? At
that point why not just bump up the speed of running and eliminate
Jboots altogether? Special items should be that...Special. Camping
and mass production of highlevel items reduces the environment of
Everquest to that of GoldenAxe or some other videogame....turn left
swing 3 times, open the chest, refill your health, run up the stairs,
open the box, get the magic doodoo, etc..on to level 2. Random spawns
help to fix this in 2 ways. They break up the camping in general with
all of it's issues, AND hopefully they reduce the overall influx of
highly powered items which result in item inflation and price deflation
in the game.
Think of it like this...You spend months developing your Paladin and
finally think you have reached some level of distinction with some
unique items that make you stand out from the crowd (a goal for many of
us is some level of uniqueness) Only to find that when you get there
every paladin now already wears your same set of spiffy armor and
weilds a copy of your very own Holy sword...this is wrong. it is
beyond perverse that many of the roleplayers I see are having to resort
to radical downgrades in equipment and items just to look a bit
different...Make the unique things unique and mix things up by moving
them around a bit...add an element of effort AND LUCK to those quests.
I don't pay my money to have clone adventures and look like a clone
character...who out there does?
Player of Mortwuk, a typically itchy ogre.
--
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains.
Roadkill[PCR]
and would rather shoot the idea down. At least there are FINALLY some
positive responses to the idea of something like this.
I had suggested that mobs would not spawn infront of anyone at all, in
random locations with a fixed range. The mob would spawn in the least
populated area and then wander about. That way you don't see them POP into
exsistance, hiding that software mechanic from us. Crush would spawn
somewhere about the castle and wander about it. The trainer would spawn
anywhere on the hill and slowly make his way up to the top where his
students are. The Shadow Knight in Befallen would spawn anywhere on his
floor of the dungeon. Gnolls would spawn out of the way where no one saw
them spawn and WALK to their posts. etc, etc, etc...
Mark S wrote in message <37EFDA21...@benchmark-systems.com>...
>I like to open a thread for some substantive discussion on what I
>consider the #1 design problem with EQ today: named mobs spawning at
>fixed locations. I understand the rationale behind it, and while I
>think the intent was good, I believe it cannot not work in the MMORPG
>environment. It is also the root of the camping/farming/kill stealing
>problems which are the source of endless complaints, frustrations and
>proposed changes today. Changing items to lore and no-drop, lengthening
>spawn times, implementing a yield rule, proposing a no exp=no loot rule;
>they all seek to treat the symptoms (camping/farming) without addressing
Mark S
> > they all seek to treat the symptoms (camping/farming) without
> addressing
> > the cause (fixed spawns)....
>
> I dont buy into the random spawn idea, because of the above statement.
>
> The cause isnt fixed spawns. Its too many people, on too few servers
> chasing too few items. More servers, character xfer (in a limited
> orderly fashion), and more items of equal value on different spawns.
> So
> instead of just jboots, we have kboots, lboots and mboots, all in
> different parts of the world.
I agree to a point that adding more versions of the same items would
help, but Verant also seems to want the stuff to be rare (another
debatable topic but anyway) so I don't see them suddenly putting 3 more
versions of Jboots on other mobs in different fixed spots. Even if they
did, you would only spread the camping out a bit not eliminate it. I
think camping sucks period, and the only way to stop it is to remove the
reason people do it: item Z comes from right here; pitch a tent and
you'll get yours too.
As for new servers and zones, don't hold your breath. Adding new
zones/servers costs Verant money, which is why it is not a realistic
solution. They have a target goal of 1500 people per server, and as
long as they are averaging close to that no new severs will be
forthcoming. Adding new zones would only help if they came in groups of
10 or so, which wont happen till the expansion comes. Adding zones one
at a time wont help enough to make any noticeable difference. You'll
just have people camping the sweet spawns in the new zones.
Mark S
mr_scarf
wrote:
>It seems to me that random spawn points would be common sense. That said, I
>have often wondered why it hasen't been that way from the beginning. Other
>than some form of programming limitation, I can't conceive of any reason why
>they implemented the game with fixed spawn points.
Probably for programming simplicity. At this stage, the "fixed
spawn, fixed drop item" is so entrenched in the way the game database
is designed that it will never be changed.
"fixed spawn point, known item drop MOB" is sort of the root of all
problems with the game, but that's the way the database is designed.
It won't ever change in EQ.
Mark S
> Probably for programming simplicity. At this stage, the "fixed
> spawn, fixed drop item" is so entrenched in the way the game database
> is designed that it will never be changed.
>
> "fixed spawn point, known item drop MOB" is sort of the root of all
> problems with the game, but that's the way the database is designed.
> It won't ever change in EQ.
But it shouldn't be hard at all. All spawn points, whether for named
mob or "regular" must use the same design structure. Consider, other
fixed spawn points like an orc camp. You have a known spawn point, yet
the same mobs do not always spawn. You might get an orc pawn,
centurion, apprentice, oracle, or legionarre all spawning from the same
spot. What you get is random but based on some percentage involved as
too each one (i.e. pawn 10% chance, cent 60%, lego 5%). So the
structure is in place already, they would simply have to add named mobs
to more than one spawn point as a percentage chance (albeit a low one)
and add "regular" mobs to the list of potential spawns at the current
fixed position. It would just be database entries AFAIK.
Also, I remember some moons ago in this very NG, Brad recommended a
strategy for getting those wandering named mobs in outdoor zones to
spawn. He recommended that you kill off other critters in the zone,
which would force more spawns, which therefore would increase the chance
of a named mob spawing. So there is already a random spawn structure in
place for some named mobs as is. Let's just expand that concept greatly
to all zones, not just outdoor ones.
Mark S.