Why 'nobody' fights in UGuk/Perma/Sol A: Brad/Abashi, please read
Asmodeus
where I think Verant is coming from. Picture if you will, and party of
adventurers entering a dungeon. Suddenly after only a few steps inside they
are greeted with the foot soldiers of the dungeons master. Masses of them.
Their skills are weak and pathetic compared to that of the party, and are
easily dispatched. Wading through the waves of mindless grunts, the party
presses on. This picture is common in most fantasy genre stories. This is
where I think Verant is coming from.
Now, what I think they are missing here is the fact that any high level
adventurer should be able to kill any low level mob, or even group of mobs
easily and swiftly. How would it have looked in the Conan stories if he was
suddenly overrun and made to flee by a band of rabid smurfs? Quite
unrealistic. He would have slashed his way through them like warm butter,
not getting a scratch. Of course when he reached his goal, or the master of
the dungeon, then the odds would seem a bit more even, and Conan would have
to fight to survive. This is how it should be. The sad thing in EverQuest is
that its a fantasy without heros. And without heros, it becomes more of a
reality than anything...and reality is a bore.
Lee Armstrong wrote in message <386a75c1...@news.texas.net>...
>On Wed, 29 Dec 1999 01:55:04 GMT, "Slithey Tove" <sli...@pond.com>
>wrote:
>
>(snip snip snip)
>
>>
>>2. Green aggro was introduced a couple of months into release. If a
critter
>>is above level 18 or so, and would normally be aggro to you, it will still
>>be aggro even when you are high enough above it that killing it would give
>>you no xp.
>>
>
>I went into Perma a few levels ago to get a quest item for my shaman,
>he was level 30. I had a 30th level cleric accompany me. The problem
>with green aggro was tremendous - we had to fight our way to an area
>that spawned the MOB I needed, killing creatures for no EP until we
>reached that area - then we did what everyone in EQ does in dungeons
>...
>
>Camp. And camp. And camp. Until I got the item I needed, and then we
>gated out.
>
>We didn't dare explore - we knew better. One pissed off green MOB gets
>away deep in a dungeon, and you might as well gate out. Then you have
>to fight your way back to where you were fighting, which takes way too
>much time. Verant thinks this makes dungeons "dangerous" - I say it
>makes them "tedious".
>
>IMO, this is the #1 problem in dungeons, although I think Verant wants
>it this way - you "fight your way in to get to the neat stuff". Of
>course, that's no fun and it sucks, which is why everyone races in
>while invisible and camps one or two rooms.
>
>>
>>== Tove
>>
>>Gilead Stonechapel, Dwarven cleric of Brell (may His Name be forever
>>blessed in the halls of stone!), Fennin Ro
>>
>>
>
Slithey Tove
level 20 in Upper Guk, and 30 to 32 in Sol A. But I think we can all agree
that these zones, which should be good for high teens to high 30's, are
grossly underpopulated for their size. Why?
There are a few obvious reasons that have been mentioned here before: Perma
is a long way from a bind point for evil non-casters, and Guk a long way
from a bind for good non-casters; Perma is poorly itemized past a certain
point (so I have read, not personally havin penetrated very deeply into it).
But there's another reason that I can't remember has ever been brought up by
anyone else, and I think the Tuning Team needs to think about it and address
it. (Actually, I bought it up once before, but it was deep in the body of a
message on a peripheral subject, and I doubt anyone at Verant ever saw it.)
Executive summary: These dungeons were last tuned in beta. Changes in the
game post-release (nerfing of Root and green aggro) have made these dungeons
in paticular much more dangerous than they were in beta, and therefore less
attractive. Verant needs to rethink the nerfing of Root and green aggro, or
needs to drastically retune these dungeons.
1. Anyone who has fought in these dungeons has been impressed by the trains.
The reason, of course, is that one runner escapes, aggro's a bunch of other
frogs/gobs he runs past, and a train starts. You *must* Root all runners,
everyone knows this. This probably worked fine in beta, when these dungeons
were last populated, itemized, and tuned. But after release, Verant nerfed
Root!
It frequently breaks when a critter is hit by magic, and the closer the
critter is to the level of the caster, the more likely it is to break.
Because Root cannot be cast around corners, even if you have the critter
targeted, and because these dungeons are so full of narrow, twisty passages,
if the first Root breaks, the group is toast. The runner probably cannot be
stopped. The same is true of Snare. All the rangers and druids seem to think
that Snare is better than Root (because the critters don't fight back, and
because it supposedly stands up to magic blasts better), but I think I have
seen just as many disasters caused by broken Snares as I have by broken
Roots.
2. Green aggro was introduced a couple of months into release. If a critter
is above level 18 or so, and would normally be aggro to you, it will still
be aggro even when you are high enough above it that killing it would give
you no xp.
This was supposed to make dungeons more 'challenging', I think. Instead, it
has made dungeons more frustrating. In order for, say, low 30's adventurers
to get to the parts of Sol A that give them good loot and xp (the Reckless
Efreeti room, for example), they must hack their way through a ton of green
goblins that yield no experience. This is not fun. This is tedious. And --
see above -- if a solitary runner escapes, it often results in a massive
train, and the death of most of the party. No one is willing to risk this,
if they are not even getting xp from the critters they're killing!
Verant, please: rethink the nerfing of Root and green aggro. Together, they
have made Upper Guk, Perma, and Sol A unrewarding to play, dungeons that
otherwise would be fun, and would take the pressure off the rest of
'overpopulated' Norrath.
Either that, or retune these dungeons. I'm sure they were great in beta, but
the rules of the game have changed since then, and Verant needs to be aware
of how these changes have drastically affected gameplay in these dungeons in
particular.
BTW, I suspect the same problem may happen in the new, improved Paw. It,
too, is full narrow twisty passages where runners can get out of Root line
of sight very quicky, and now is is populated with higher level mobs all of
whom will be aggro to players. Will the new Paw remain underpopulated? Time
will tell.
Lee Armstrong
wrote:
(snip snip snip)
>
>2. Green aggro was introduced a couple of months into release. If a critter
>is above level 18 or so, and would normally be aggro to you, it will still
>be aggro even when you are high enough above it that killing it would give
>you no xp.
>
I went into Perma a few levels ago to get a quest item for my shaman,
he was level 30. I had a 30th level cleric accompany me. The problem
with green aggro was tremendous - we had to fight our way to an area
that spawned the MOB I needed, killing creatures for no EP until we
reached that area - then we did what everyone in EQ does in dungeons
...
Camp. And camp. And camp. Until I got the item I needed, and then we
gated out.
We didn't dare explore - we knew better. One pissed off green MOB gets
away deep in a dungeon, and you might as well gate out. Then you have
to fight your way back to where you were fighting, which takes way too
much time. Verant thinks this makes dungeons "dangerous" - I say it
makes them "tedious".
IMO, this is the #1 problem in dungeons, although I think Verant wants
it this way - you "fight your way in to get to the neat stuff". Of
course, that's no fun and it sucks, which is why everyone races in
while invisible and camps one or two rooms.
>
The Shortest Barbarian On The Block
>where I think Verant is coming from. Picture if you will, and party of
>adventurers entering a dungeon. Suddenly after only a few steps inside they
>are greeted with the foot soldiers of the dungeons master. Masses of them.
>Their skills are weak and pathetic compared to that of the party, and are
>easily dispatched. Wading through the waves of mindless grunts, the party
>presses on. This picture is common in most fantasy genre stories. This is
>where I think Verant is coming from.
In literature, though, you go through that event as quickly as you just wrote
it. In a *game* you have to fight through it. It takes time, and it's a lot
of mana/time/effort spent for little or no achievement.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
<i>There are some things you can't share without
ending up liking each other, and knocking out a
twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them.</i>
-- J.K. Rowlings
Alx
what you set out to achieve :)
I like the 'idea' of having to fight your way in and out, but
in practice it is just a pain in the butt. If you didn't HAVE
to camp at the end of it though, it wouldn't be so bad.
Alex
--
Remove the X if replying by email.
"The Shortest Barbarian On The Block" <kaya...@aol.comOwnsMe> wrote in
message
Asmoday
wrote
>it. In a *game* you have to fight through it. It takes time, and it's a
lot
>of mana/time/effort spent for little or no achievement.
Not necissarily true. The achievement is in the item you get in the end.
Now, don't get me wrong, I find aggro green annoying just like you do, but
there is a point to it. If you could just walz into the dungeon that held
item A and camp a single guy or even just fight off around 7 or fewer
creatures the items would be a lot easier to get at than they are now. It is
true that as it stands now many are affraid to go into these areas and this
leads to vastly overpopulated zones (Oasis in Brell had 44 ppl in it at 4:00
AM last night), but if they toned the dungeons down too much then one of two
things would happen: 1. Ppl would repeatedly camp items just to sell making
it harder for the ones who needed them to get without ludicris amounts of
money or 2. All the items would be worthless as everyone could get them with
relative ease. Either of these scenarios could happen. Most likely the
number one would happen first, then after a short period of time the second
would follow when the market is flooded with the afore mentioned items. Much
like the market is saturated with the stien of maggok you would see the
dropable good items begin to lower in price. If these prices dropped too
drastically and became too common anyone could get ahold of them and there
would be nothing special about the item. True, the use is still the same. A
Executioner's Axe has the same stats whether you bought it for 500pp or
2000pp or camped for it for 5 hrs (I don't know camp time on this item or
even if campable, made a number up), but if everyone has one where is the
fun in having it? It will still hit the same, but many people use items like
this as a status symbol. I personally don't care one way or the other as I
use the item, not gawk at it, but others out there would be rather aggitaged
by the idea that anyone can get ahold of something they spend a good day
trying to find and camp (not to mention the leveling time). This could cause
more people to switch to ashron's.
As for a solution: Well, there is no easy one. I agree with many that the
exp hit taken when you die is WAY to high. I am relatively new to the game
and have a lvl 19 warrior as my highest character. If I die I lose about
half a bubble of exp. This means that if I go linkdead (this happened to me
last night) I can lose all the exp from my last hour and half + time of
play. I was pissed to say the least. I understand the concept of losing exp
in death. It is a deterant to keep you from trying to take on the red
creatures to gain extra exp *if* you win, but when I get jumped by a horde
of aggro green creatures while fighting something worthy, end up dying, and
lose half a bubble or more I am severly annoyed. This is not fun. It is
irritating. I think that if a creature cons a true green to you he should
only aggro if he is with "friends" and even then should be easier to beat
than a normal blue con. Not too easy mind you, but he shouldn't hit you just
as he did when he was blue to you. He should miss more often and do less
damage when he does hit. Your damage to him would remane the same as to
everything else however because you have a damage base and you are hitting
him harder than a blue anyway as he has less hp than the blue. You are
hitting him for a bigger percentage of his life overall with every swing
than if you hit the blue with the same power. I also tend to agree with the
players' arguement for more binds. I think only casters should get the
spell, but I think we should be able to bind where we want to. Binding in
certain spots limits the amount of area players have easy access to. Let
level limits keep people out of areas they shouldn't be in. Few level 12's
are going to hunt in Kith forest at night no matter where they are bound.
This is the way it should be. I know I can make it in a few other places
with my 19, but I tend to (I break this pattern occasionally) stick to FP
area as it is close to my bind and I know the land really well. I do not,
however, wish to be stuck there. I want to explore the entire map. I just
want to get to 25 first so I don't get killed and have to start back in FP
city. If I could bind where I wanted with the aid of a caster I wouldn't
fear this at all. I would be more than happy to explore now or even 5 levels
ago. These are issues that need to be addressed, but they have been bitched
about for this long and nothing has been done about them so they probably
will never be fixed. That is why Ashron's Call is getting popular with ex-EQ
players and it is also the reason the next EQ style game will be popular
with ex-Asheron's Call players. Each game has these problems. It is just a
matter of finding out what the game makers are willing to do about them. In
this case it is little to nothing. That is why people move on to the next
game. That new games programmers (hopefully) learned from the mistakes of
the previous one's.
I have typed WAY too much.
marc welsh
basically a way to fix this that would still have the same effect of wading
through the peons of the dungeons and to at the very least offer some exp of
the green aggro...but when you are forced into battle by the mob i believe
you should be rewarded by exp...
Storm
yellow to the entire party will turn and run. Best of luck stopping
them from getting to the next room. Then it all begins.
Also, in Upper Guk, you cannot count on root. If you do not have a
source of snare, just don't go there at all. It's not worth it. Even
with snare, you will still get screwed from time to time.
On Wed, 29 Dec 1999 01:55:04 GMT, "Slithey Tove" <sli...@pond.com>
wrote:
>Admittedly, 'nobody' is an overstatement. People do fight there. I spent my
>2. Green aggro was introduced a couple of months into release. If a critter
>is above level 18 or so, and would normally be aggro to you, it will still
>be aggro even when you are high enough above it that killing it would give
>you no xp.
>
>This was supposed to make dungeons more 'challenging', I think. Instead, it
>has made dungeons more frustrating. In order for, say, low 30's adventurers
>to get to the parts of Sol A that give them good loot and xp (the Reckless
>Efreeti room, for example), they must hack their way through a ton of green
>goblins that yield no experience. This is not fun. This is tedious. And --
>see above -- if a solitary runner escapes, it often results in a massive
>train, and the death of most of the party. No one is willing to risk this,
>if they are not even getting xp from the critters they're killing!
>
>Verant, please: rethink the nerfing of Root and green aggro. Together, they
>have made Upper Guk, Perma, and Sol A unrewarding to play, dungeons that
>otherwise would be fun, and would take the pressure off the rest of
>'overpopulated' Norrath.
>
>Either that, or retune these dungeons. I'm sure they were great in beta, but
>the rules of the game have changed since then, and Verant needs to be aware
>of how these changes have drastically affected gameplay in these dungeons in
>particular.
>
>BTW, I suspect the same problem may happen in the new, improved Paw. It,
>too, is full narrow twisty passages where runners can get out of Root line
>of sight very quicky, and now is is populated with higher level mobs all of
>whom will be aggro to players. Will the new Paw remain underpopulated? Time
>will tell.
>
James
believe. So if you keep casting snare once mob's hp is below 1/2 till
snare sticks, you should be fine.
I hate green aggro too. But if no green aggro, every lvl 50 can walk
into sol a, U guk, permafrost and pick up a single mob to kill, that
is ridiculous too.
U Guk, perma and sol A are doable if you have a good group. However
for the new PAW (pass first bridge), i can't see any group can get
good exp there -- too many casters, and they spawn tooo tooo close by.
Prh1966
RPGs I've played you still got exp from hall trash (greenies) it just
wasn't alot compared to your level but it was at least something for
the effort.. Why shouldn't Verant award exp for fighting hordes of
greenies it IS a different combat experience than fighting single spawns.
so you'd have to kill 100 greenies to get the exp bar to move (noticeably)
whats the big deal... I doubt Power leveler's would exploit it (take wayyy
to long to level) and those of us who are casual gamers and don't have
the time to do 4-5 hour game sessions would at least make some progress.
Khord Incendio
Magician of Ak'anon
John Molea
"Asmodeus" <m...@home.com> wrote in message
news:84btq2$5c6$1...@athena.netset.com...
> First off, I'll say that I agree with you. But Id also like to point out
> where I think Verant is coming from. Picture if you will, and party of
> adventurers entering a dungeon. Suddenly after only a few steps inside
they
> are greeted with the foot soldiers of the dungeons master. Masses of them.
> Their skills are weak and pathetic compared to that of the party, and are
> easily dispatched. Wading through the waves of mindless grunts, the party
> presses on. This picture is common in most fantasy genre stories. This is
> where I think Verant is coming from.
Which is fine and all but the problem is you gain no experience for doing
so.
Its tedious and extremely dangerous and in return for it you get what?
Nothing
but the risk that one of the wimpy swarm of creatures gets away and brings
back a swift death to you. Perhaps a better fix for it would be for Verant
to
rethink the "no xp" for green cons in dungeons, one green creature is
nothing
5-6 of them with one of them breaking off and running is FAR too annoying
to deal with when you get *nothing* in return for it. Its amazing how simple
seeing a You gain party experience can make a fight less annoying then
killing a bunch of trash mobs and get zip, even if it is a tiny bit it adds
up and
you dont feel like that huge fight was for nothing.
> Now, what I think they are missing here is the fact that any high level
> adventurer should be able to kill any low level mob, or even group of mobs
> easily and swiftly. How would it have looked in the Conan stories if he
was
> suddenly overrun and made to flee by a band of rabid smurfs? Quite
> unrealistic. He would have slashed his way through them like warm butter,
> not getting a scratch. Of course when he reached his goal, or the master
of
> the dungeon, then the odds would seem a bit more even, and Conan would
have
> to fight to survive. This is how it should be. The sad thing in EverQuest
is
> that its a fantasy without heros. And without heros, it becomes more of a
> reality than anything...and reality is a bore.
Again its a matter of risk/gain, people arent going to risk something if
they
stand to gain nothing in return. EVERYTHING in a dungeon should reward
experience I dont care if its a tiny bit, I wouldnt mind going thru say 8
green
creatures for the xp of a blue con atleast then it would be worth it to me.
Level 25 I was with a group in Runneye and a rather large train broke out
but we stood our ground with the goblins it was a large fight with alot of
the
goblins and it was by no means an easy fight because there were so many
of them. At the end of the fight I scroll back, not one single point of xp
for
the entire fight, in retrospect we should have just ran for the zone since
why
bother fighting this shit if we risk death and gain nothing?
Dan Harmon
Slithey Tove <sli...@pond.com> wrote in message
news:YRda4.27192$xC4.1...@newshog.newsread.com...
> but I think I have
> seen just as many disasters caused by broken Snares as I have by broken
> Roots.
In 29 levels I have never seen snare broken. Snare lasts about a minute if
it isn't resisted. If it IS resisted, you know right away and can re-cast.
The ranger or druid simply has to remember to resnare before the time is up.
I'm not sure why you're suggesting more people should go to those
zones...Sol A is too crowded even now, on the Rathe, when the numbers reach
20-30. It's probably just as well that it's got the inconvenience of have
no nearby non-caster bind points.
I don't have much experience with Guk & Perma, but when I was there, they
were too crowded, too. I play from 1a-4a GMT (prime time for US) during the
week.
fillipo
>seen just as many disasters caused by broken Snares as I have by broken
>Roots.
Snare doesn't "break".
Douglas Rosengard
>1. Anyone who has fought in these dungeons has been impressed by the
trains.
>The reason, of course, is that one runner escapes, aggro's a bunch of other
>frogs/gobs he runs past, and a train starts. You *must* Root all runners,
>everyone knows this. This probably worked fine in beta, when these dungeons
>were last populated, itemized, and tuned. But after release, Verant nerfed
>Root!
Root is nice, but not necessary. I've hunted Upper Guk quite a bit without
having Root. If you don't have root, the trick is to NEVER chase the
monster. The further you chase the monster, the further it runs. If you
just stand in place and wait, though, the monster will run a little ways and
stop, then eventually come back for another go. At worst the monster will
grab one ally nearby. Plus, if you hit the monster with a ranged attack or
spell from where you're standing (if you can see it, in a long hallway for
instance), or if it was running away but dying from DoT, chasing it serves
no purpose.
So, yeah, it takes a little longer, because you have to be patient and wait
for the monster to come back. But on the other hand there's much less
chance of a train and you don't have to worry about the monster resisting or
breaking a Root spell, saving a little mana for something else.
woo...@my-deja.com
(/pet guard here in a newbie area, go afk, go to bed), but if it's set
to perma-aggro regardless of your level, then you should get exp for
it. Maybe whatever system handles the handing out of exp could just
check for that "flag" that tells whether the mob is aggro or not, and
if that flag is present, then award a certain minimum exp for killing
it. It's not as if there's no risk involved in killing giant groups of
aggro greens.
In article <84cnpn$8bs$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
isad...@esisusa.com
He will attack you, ok. You finally make level 20 and now that same Mob is
green. He will still attack you and you get usually nothing. He will still
take you down in mana/health pretty good but he wont repay your time reward.
Atleast after a certain gap is created you can walk freely among the low low
greens. WHY THE HECK DO BIXIE DRONES ATTACK YOU AT 50?
Prh1966 <prh...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:84cvga$c84$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Sang K. Choe
wrote:
>Slithey Tove <sli...@pond.com> wrote in message
>news:YRda4.27192$xC4.1...@newshog.newsread.com...
>
>> but I think I have
>> seen just as many disasters caused by broken Snares as I have by broken
>> Roots.
>
>In 29 levels I have never seen snare broken. Snare lasts about a minute if
>it isn't resisted. If it IS resisted, you know right away and can re-cast.
>The ranger or druid simply has to remember to resnare before the time is up.
Snare can be broken if someone attempts to root a snared mob--for some
bizzaro reason even a failed root attempt appears to break snare,
making for a very interesting situation.
>I don't have much experience with Guk & Perma, but when I was there, they
>were too crowded, too. I play from 1a-4a GMT (prime time for US) during the
>week.
LGuk can be crowded by high levels.
UGuk is rarely if ever crowded--I think the record was 15 people while
I was there 8 hours camping the freaking gators (usually, it was just
me amongst all them froggies--sure glad I never killed any of them...)
Perma is never crowded on my server. Simply because it's one of the
more broken zones. Mob teleporting, greenies (and I mean DEEP green)
aggroing on you, and what the freaking hell is up with that damn door!
God I hate the idea of having to camp that stupid alchemist...
-- Sang.
Asmodeus
great one with lots of potential...but in the so called reality of the game
itself, it doesnt work, and is often a waste of time.
The Shortest Barbarian On The Block wrote in message
<19991228235530...@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
>> First off, I'll say that I agree with you. But Id also like to point out
>>where I think Verant is coming from. Picture if you will, and party of
>>adventurers entering a dungeon. Suddenly after only a few steps inside
they
>>are greeted with the foot soldiers of the dungeons master. Masses of them.
>>Their skills are weak and pathetic compared to that of the party, and are
>>easily dispatched. Wading through the waves of mindless grunts, the party
>>presses on. This picture is common in most fantasy genre stories. This is
>>where I think Verant is coming from.
>
>In literature, though, you go through that event as quickly as you just
wrote
>it. In a *game* you have to fight through it. It takes time, and it's a
lot
>of mana/time/effort spent for little or no achievement.
>
>
>
Joe
Barbarian On The Block) wrote:
>> First off, I'll say that I agree with you. But Id also like to point out
>>where I think Verant is coming from. Picture if you will, and party of
>>adventurers entering a dungeon. Suddenly after only a few steps inside they
>>are greeted with the foot soldiers of the dungeons master. Masses of them.
>>Their skills are weak and pathetic compared to that of the party, and are
>>easily dispatched. Wading through the waves of mindless grunts, the party
>>presses on. This picture is common in most fantasy genre stories. This is
>>where I think Verant is coming from.
>
>In literature, though, you go through that event as quickly as you just wrote
>it. In a *game* you have to fight through it. It takes time, and it's a lot
>of mana/time/effort spent for little or no achievement.
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
><i>There are some things you can't share without
>ending up liking each other, and knocking out a
>twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them.</i>
> -- J.K. Rowlings
Also (using the example of Dungeons & Dragons because let's face it,
it was a HUGE influence on EQ) you get EXPERIENCE for killing all the
weenie monsters to get to the big boss. Not a lot, but some.
-Joe
Brian Link
and come back after you.
Canisius Ash
The Edge
the FUN of it instead of for the EXP of it?
Asmodeus <m...@home.com> wrote in message
news:84e8ve$1ph$1...@athena.netset.com...
> Which was my entire point. I agree with the "vision" of Verant...its a
> great one with lots of potential...but in the so called reality of the
game
> itself, it doesnt work, and is often a waste of time.
>
>
> The Shortest Barbarian On The Block wrote in message
> <19991228235530...@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
harlequin
Because nothing in EQ is fun. It's a hard, frustrating race to get to level
50 and get the best items faster than anyone else. Many obstacles, like
aggro greens in the way of the best xp, or xp penalties when you die, have
been put between you and your goal. The purpose of this is to slow down how
fast you can level because everyone knows no one at Verant wants you to make
level 50 so they can get even more of your money.
</sarcastic powergamer>
That being said, I always though clearing out a dungeon for the hell of it
was rather fun. Last time I went to camp for a gossimer robe, we ended up
taking over the entire third floor of befallen. Every now and then, we'd
run up and kill some of the other shadowknights until someone came along and
wanted to camp them. The place was pretty much empty (big surprise) and we
had a blast doing it.
harlequin
The Edge <jwe...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:e7cNoYtU$GA.328@cpmsnbbsa02...
Twilight
>BTW, I suspect the same problem may happen in the new, improved Paw. It,
>too, is full narrow twisty passages where runners can get out of Root line
>of sight very quicky, and now is is populated with higher level mobs all of
>whom will be aggro to players. Will the new Paw remain underpopulated? Time
>will tell.
>
Actually the main reason why PAW is not used that often is the crap
loot. For a dungeon which is pretty challenging and a pain to reach
(IE non binded melee class face a stupid run across the zones)
compared to Sol B or Lower Guk , the loot in the dungeon is pretty
crap. A stun whip which is only average in performance( ie a few stuns
for the 3 damage is kinda weak ) or no-drop stuff like the named
weapons means most players just pass on it.
Plus the dungeon layout is nasty. Closely huddled creatures with lots
of spell caster groups (that 4 shaman group comes to mind) makes for
a royal pain to go thru and fight. Plus the mobs themselves
particualrly the lower parts are above average in toughness compared
to similar lvled mobs. Alll in all at peak its unusual to see more
than 2 dozen players in PAW. ( might vary from server to server but
thats how it is on mine)
"I can picture in my mind a world without war , a world without hate . And I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect it. " -Jack Handey
John Molea
The Edge wrote:
> Why has no one pointed out that sometimes, you just have to do something for
> the FUN of it instead of for the EXP of it?
Because its *not* fun to get in a huge fight with a buttload of green cons and
then have to med/heal afterwards and realize you got zero xp for that battle
and now have to goto bed because you have to get up for work in the morning :)
Slithey Tove
the mob bolts and runs, and the usual disasterous train ensues. It's shorter
than Enstill; not sure how it compares to Root.
Druids and rangers seem to have an almost supernatural faith in snare, and
are continually yelling for the root casters NOT to cast root, because they
have the critter snared. Then the snare runs out, and the critter bolts. No,
it doesn't break because of magic, perhaps, but it breaks at the end of a
given time limit.
fillipo wrote in message <386a2d0...@news.cis.ohio-state.edu>...
>On Wed, 29 Dec 1999 01:55:04 GMT, "Slithey Tove" <sli...@pond.com>
>wrote:
>>but I think I have
>>seen just as many disasters caused by broken Snares as I have by broken
>>Roots.
>
Mark Rafn
>I stand corrected. What happens instead, is that its time limit runs out,
>the mob bolts and runs, and the usual disasterous train ensues. It's shorter
>than Enstill; not sure how it compares to Root.
According to a spell data extractor, Snare lasts level/1.5 ticks, root
lasts 8 ticks, enstill lasts 16 ticks. However, root and enstill can break
earlier and snare lasts exactly the same length every time. Root/enstill
are great to keep a monster out of combat while you fight another. Snare is
the one to use on something that you're beating on.
>Druids and rangers seem to have an almost supernatural faith in snare, and
>are continually yelling for the root casters NOT to cast root, because they
>have the critter snared.
Rightly so. Snare is predictable, root is not.
>Then the snare runs out, and the critter bolts.
Bad druid or ranger. Knowing how long your spell lasts is an important
part of playing a spell class. The designated snarer MUST watch the time
and recast before it runs out. Sure, mistakes are made and trains result.
Part of the game. But with a good player, it's much less common with snare
than with root.
>No, it doesn't break because of magic, perhaps, but it breaks at the end
>of a given time limit.
If a thing is predictable, it's controllable. You know when snare will
end, so you can prepare and re-cast before it does. You don't know when
root will break, and a lot of monsters can get around a corner before you
can recast.
Snare is insanely hugely wonderfully superior to root.
--
Mark Rafn da...@dagon.net <http://www.dagon.net/> !G
Richard A. Higgins`
once it's been beat most of the way, will eventually just stop and stand
there while you finish it off. BUT, it has to get beat down enough for this
to occur. In upper GUK Frogloks have a tendacy to run before most things
normally would, hence they walk off when snared instead of just stopping in
their tracks and doing nothing. So, instead of casting root, simply DD it
once and the snare should kick in to where it just stands there and gets
killed by melee (save the mana).
Slithey Tove <sli...@pond.com> wrote in message
news:INfc4.9011$Ce.1...@monger.newsread.com...
> I stand corrected. What happens instead, is that its time limit runs out,
> the mob bolts and runs, and the usual disasterous train ensues. It's
shorter
> than Enstill; not sure how it compares to Root.
>
> Druids and rangers seem to have an almost supernatural faith in snare, and
> are continually yelling for the root casters NOT to cast root, because
they
> have the critter snared. Then the snare runs out, and the critter bolts.
No,
> it doesn't break because of magic, perhaps, but it breaks at the end of a
> given time limit.
>
Quantum
until lvl 12) and ALWAYS tell casters not to root - snare lasts a couple
of minutes - it is 15 mana - any half competent druid will realise that
if a mob is a long-laster (Ghoul Lord for example) you dont start
snaring until its half dead cos you still have plenty of time to
compensate for the resists - anything else is not a problem.
The reason for this is that everyone uses assist to concentrate on one
mob at a time - assisting off the puller is standard and then kill it as
fast as possible - the snare simply doesnt have the time to expire.
Since getting past 25 or so I dont think I have ever grouped with
another caster that refused to stop casting root (or course it can still
be used in emergencies) and after the other 5 people all have a friendly
go at someone that does not assist (the higher you get the rarer this is
- everyone has an assist hotkey) there is no problem.
If a group I'm in has a runner it is caused by one of:
1) Me forgetting to snare (no-ones perfect...)
2) Every snare being resisted (very rare)
3) Someone rooted
4) Someone used an Ebony blade
5) Pet attacking the wrong mob - not the assist one (usually cos its
caster got hit) and slaughtering it
I have never seen a runner caused by snare breaking/expiring - I have
seen lots caused by roots...
Slithey Tove writes
>I stand corrected. What happens instead, is that its time limit runs out,
>the mob bolts and runs, and the usual disasterous train ensues. It's shorter
>than Enstill; not sure how it compares to Root.
>
>Druids and rangers seem to have an almost supernatural faith in snare, and
>are continually yelling for the root casters NOT to cast root, because they
>have the critter snared. Then the snare runs out, and the critter bolts. No,
>it doesn't break because of magic, perhaps, but it breaks at the end of a
>given time limit.
--
Daggeniel Windancer - lvl 47 druid who spends a lot of time in Dungeons
Growing old is mandatory;
growing up is optional.
Alasdair Allan
> Slithey Tove <sli...@pond.com> wrote:
> >No, it doesn't break because of magic, perhaps, but it breaks at the end
> >of a given time limit.
>
> end, so you can prepare and re-cast before it does. You don't know when
> root will break, and a lot of monsters can get around a corner before you
> can recast.
>
> Snare is insanely hugely wonderfully superior to root.
Mobs moving is a bad thing. They don't move when rooted. When I fight in,
say, the bug area of Sol B, the last thing I want is a mob moving, even
while snared, and aggroing additional mobs at a time when I don't want to
get them.
Always fun seeing you Snare reliant cunts in Mistmoor trying to work out why
you keep dying or training the whole damn castle. The words Dogs and Tricks
spring to mind.
Snare isn't "insanely hugely wonderfully superior to root", its marginally
better in some situations, and much, much worse in others.
--
Alasdair Allan, Ibrox, Glasgow |England - Country where Marx developed
x-st...@null.net | the basis of Communism
X-Static's Rangers Webzine |Scotland - Country where Smith developed
http://www.x-static.demon.co.uk/ | the basis of Capitalism
Dennis Francis Heffernan
<posth...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
|Mobs moving is a bad thing. They don't move when rooted. When I fight in,
|say, the bug area of Sol B, the last thing I want is a mob moving, even
|while snared, and aggroing additional mobs at a time when I don't want to
|get them.
They won't get very far if Snared. And they'll stop as soon as they're
hit hard enough. If your Snared mobs are getting away and starting trains,
then your "efficient" group can't kill them fast enough to make the grade.
|Always fun seeing you Snare reliant cunts in Mistmoor trying to work out why
|you keep dying or training the whole damn castle. The words Dogs and Tricks
|spring to mind.
Using Root won't prevent that. The mobs will get loose as soon as you
start hitting them.
|Snare isn't "insanely hugely wonderfully superior to root", its marginally
|better in some situations, and much, much worse in others.
In 95 cases out of 100, Snare is hands-down better. In 4 of the last 5
cases, you want Root because you are trying to escape.
There is a reason why everyone in the game has relabelled the Ebony Blade
"Train Conductor"...and it's not because you're smarter than everyone else.
Dennis F. Heffernan EQ: Venture Fletcher(E'ci) dfra...@email.com
Montclair State U #include <disclaim.h> ICQ:9154048 CompSci/Philosophy
"I guess my work 'round here has all been done."
-- The Devil, "The Garden of Allah", Don Henley
Mason Barge
>If a group I'm in has a runner it is caused by one of:
>
>1) Me forgetting to snare (no-ones perfect...)
>2) Every snare being resisted (very rare)
>3) Someone rooted
>4) Someone used an Ebony blade
>5) Pet attacking the wrong mob - not the assist one (usually cos its
>caster got hit) and slaughtering it
Will stun cause a snare to expire? I take it from all of this that if you have
a snarer in the group, you don't want an earth pet, because you can't turn off
it's root spell and it will indeed change targets if the Mage is hit. But air
pets, often used in dungeons, cast stun.
I will say that, even if a pet breaks a snare, the mage should almost always be
able to stop the runner if he's on his toes. Not as good as a snare, since if
the mob has friends close at hand he might get to them and your casters can't
throw DD around a corner, but still it shouldn't go far.
The trick here is for the casters to save their mana and throw DD just before
the mob runs. If they are good, any running mob will be at crawl speed and
easy to stop.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me
some coffee."
- Abraham Lincoln
Quercus
I have *never* had a train caused by a mob running from snare.
Ever.
Not in Sol A.
Not in Sol B.
Not in Mistmoore.
Not in Lower Guk.
Not in Upper Guk.
Not in Cazic Thule.
Nowhere.
Ever.
The only time mobs will go into the "slow run" with snare as opposed to
the "turn and take it" is if they are:
a) Very green.
b) Healed *after* they start to run.
Use root if you like, but snare turns trainstations like Sol A and
Permafrost into kiddie playgrounds.
In addition, snare has a long duration. I can only thing of a handful
of mobs that can survive a fight long enough for it to wear off, even
when cast at the start of combat (e.g. Froglok King).
--Q
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Nan Wang
> I stand corrected. What happens instead, is that its time limit runs out,
> the mob bolts and runs, and the usual disasterous train ensues. It's shorter
> than Enstill; not sure how it compares to Root.
Well, that's why you snare them when they are down to half health.
> Druids and rangers seem to have an almost supernatural faith in snare, and
> are continually yelling for the root casters NOT to cast root, because they
> have the critter snared. Then the snare runs out, and the critter bolts. No,
> it doesn't break because of magic, perhaps, but it breaks at the end of a
> given time limit.
Snare is much better than root. For example, root will break the mob out of
flee mode, so it starts to fight again. Snare will make the mob run so
slow that you can get in a couple of rounds before it's out of melee range,
and once the mob gets really low on health, it stops, and will not fight
back.
Joseph M Leonard
: Snare isn't "insanely hugely wonderfully superior to root", its marginally
: better in some situations, and much, much worse in others.
Yes it is. =)
--
Joe
Maelfyn Sinifay 50th ranger Fennin Ro
Lauryn Sinifay 17th bard Fennin Ro
Member of Guardians of Darkness
Joseph M Leonard
something. It takes about 2 minutes to break.
Trajan
>Snare isn't "insanely hugely wonderfully superior to root", its marginally
>better in some situations, and much, much worse in others.
Wrong. Snare is probably the most useful spell in the game. It's
probably cast more than any other spell. But I don't mind you
disagreeing because snare is one of the few unbroken things in EQ and
I'm afraid if we tout its virtues too much, Verant will nerf it. So
yes, you're right, SNARE SUCKS!!
Mason Barge
>>Snare isn't "insanely hugely wonderfully superior to root", its marginally
>>better in some situations, and much, much worse in others.
>
>Wrong. Snare is probably the most useful spell in the game.
Well, I'd come down somewhere in between you two. It is certainly and clearly
superior to root. It is more predictable, effective, and damaging. It is
certainly NOT the most useful spell in the game. I would rather have any large
healing spell, clarity, mesmerize, evacuate/gate, or necro/mage summon pet, for
example.
It is entirely possible to stop and kill runners without snare. In fact, with
a pet-caster in a group, there is no excuse for runners. I'd rather have
snare, but without it, I assign myself to runner duty, and they don't get away
if you have a mage on his toes with an earth or air pet.
In fact, even a wizard if he is smart enough to keep his mana in reserve can
often stop runners, since he can usually kill them with one shot, and will at
least put them into crawl mode.
But snare is better.
The problem with stopping runners is when they get around a corner before a DD
caster can nail them. Mage is thus best for this, as his pet will root or
stun. No, not as good as snare, but pretty close.
However, there is no substitute for a lot of spells.
Quercus
> than Enstill; not sure how it compares to Root.
I don't know where this myth started, but it is not true.
Here are the facts on snare:
1. Snare has a very long duration. In battles against critters of
all levels, there are but a handful for which snare does not last the
whole battle.
2. Snare cannot be "broken." Roots have a variable duration during
which any number of conditions can cause a mob to get a chance to
break. The only way to "break" snare is to overwrite it with something
that nullifies it.
3. When a mob is rooted, it may not be able to run, but it can and
will fight back back until. Once a snared mob starts to run, it will
not fight back, cast spells, etc.
Root is superior to snare for keeping a mob out of combat, but vastly
inferior at stopping runners from causing trains.
Tricky
wrote:
>It is entirely possible to stop and kill runners without snare. In fact, with
>a pet-caster in a group, there is no excuse for runners. I'd rather have
>snare, but without it, I assign myself to runner duty, and they don't get away
>if you have a mage on his toes with an earth or air pet.
>
>In fact, even a wizard if he is smart enough to keep his mana in reserve can
>often stop runners, since he can usually kill them with one shot, and will at
>least put them into crawl mode.
Nope.
Some mob, such as frog, runs faster than you can cast a DD spell.
Some high level mob requires more than one DD spell to finish it after
it begins to run.
And, DD can be resisted.
Binbini
pur...@netscape.net
move if they are being properly tanked. All you need is the tank to
hold the mob in place. And, once snared, when the mob hits the flee
state, it will just stand still and not fight back. The only reason
why a snared mob will be moving about in a battle is if casters are
getting over zealous and getting the agro. Mostly, that means the
wizard is not very smart and over cooking that beast. At that point,
the tank just needs to taunt and the healer keep the caster alive. A
good group that undersands how snare works will always be better off
than one dependant on root. The only situation I will give root the
advantage is with a group of pure casters outdoors. It is also good if
you do not have an enchanter and have multiple mobs - root the extra,
everyone move away from it (if it is attacing a non tank).
Snare:
1) Snare is a fixed duration. Not random. It is predictable
2) A snared mob that wants to flee, will just stand still
3) In groups, used to prevent a mob from fleeing
Root:
1) Breaks at random times with no warning. If the mob is low in
health and root breaks (which it often does) that mob immediately runs
around a corner and often brings friends
2) Advantage in that a rooted mob can't chase that chain nuking wizard
about
3) In groups, used to hold a mob still so no one gets hit - usless
with a tank
The whole concept of snare is reliablity. We know it always works a
set duration and we know exactly how it will behave. Root is not
dependable. And, calling us druids and rangers cunts just shows how
little you are willing to learn about the game dynamics and how
different classes work. Not to mention some of your other posts I have
seen showing your very biased and angry attitude (particularly your
demand to have damage shields nerfed). Perhaps those "cunts" would not
be standing around figuring out trains if you would stop casting root
on their snared mobs?
Cordially,
Your friendly, Snare Cunt 49th Druid of Mith Marr
In article <01bf5788$72798ac0$250201c0@dell40>,
"Alasdair Allan" <postm...@x-static.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Mobs moving is a bad thing. They don't move when rooted. When I
fight in,
> say, the bug area of Sol B, the last thing I want is a mob moving,
even
> while snared, and aggroing additional mobs at a time when I don't
want to
> get them.
>
> Always fun seeing you Snare reliant cunts in Mistmoor trying to work
out why
> you keep dying or training the whole damn castle. The words Dogs and
Tricks
> spring to mind.
>
> Snare isn't "insanely hugely wonderfully superior to root", its
marginally
> better in some situations, and much, much worse in others.
>
> --
> Alasdair Allan, Ibrox, Glasgow |England - Country where Marx
developed
> x-st...@null.net | the basis of Communism
> X-Static's Rangers Webzine |Scotland - Country where Smith
developed
> http://www.x-static.demon.co.uk/ | the basis of Capitalism
>
pur...@netscape.net
have had in a group with a mage was due to that earth pet. The stun on
the air pet will not break the snare. Air seems to be very good pet up
against casters, thinking fire would be better against the average, non-
Sol B mob though.
In article <20000105110158...@ng-fi1.aol.com>,
mason...@aol.comnospam (Mason Barge) wrote:
> Will stun cause a snare to expire? I take it from all of this that
if you have
> a snarer in the group, you don't want an earth pet, because you can't
turn off
> it's root spell and it will indeed change targets if the Mage is
hit. But air
> pets, often used in dungeons, cast stun.
>
> I will say that, even if a pet breaks a snare, the mage should almost
always be
> able to stop the runner if he's on his toes. Not as good as a snare,
since if
> the mob has friends close at hand he might get to them and your
casters can't
> throw DD around a corner, but still it shouldn't go far.
>
> The trick here is for the casters to save their mana and throw DD
just before
> the mob runs. If they are good, any running mob will be at crawl
speed and
> easy to stop.
>
> "If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please
bring me
> some coffee."
> - Abraham
Lincoln
>
Billy Shields
: Snare isn't "insanely hugely wonderfully superior to root", its marginally
: better in some situations, and much, much worse in others.
Nonsense.
Snare is vastly superior to root. If you're relying on root to save
you from runners in dungeons then you're playing russian roulette
and one day your number will be up as that monster you just rooted
breaks almost immediately and runs off to grab its buddies.
Give me a monster I *know* will be moving slowly over one that might
bolt at full speed at any minute any day of the week.
Root itself is fundamentally flawed because you can't rely on it.
Its pot luck.
John Henders
>Will stun cause a snare to expire? I take it from all of this that if you have
>a snarer in the group, you don't want an earth pet, because you can't turn off
>it's root spell and it will indeed change targets if the Mage is hit. But air
>pets, often used in dungeons, cast stun.
No, stun doesn't break snare. I've played with several magicians with
air pets and it works fine with snare.
--
Artificial Intelligence stands no chance against Natural Stupidity.
GAT d- -p+(--) c++++ l++ u++ t- m--- W--- !v
b+++ e* s-/+ n-(?) h++ f+g+ w+++ y*
Mason Barge
>Some mob, such as frog, runs faster than you can cast a DD spell.
I said a wizard can "often" stop a runner and I stand by my statement.
A mage is clearly better as the air or earth pet can usually stop the runner
long enough for the mage to get a DD spell off.
Besides which, the pet might kill the runner by itself.
>Some high level mob requires more than one DD spell to finish it after
>it begins to run.
It ain't gonna be moving too fast if it is weak enough to be running and gets
hit with a DD. High level mobs running is not usually the problem. See below.
>And, DD can be resisted.
Not likely in a runner though. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a problem
with a DD resist on a runner. If the mob is that big, the whole team is gonna'
be chasing it.
The runner problem usually comes from a little guy in a group spawn. They run
quickly, nobody is really concentrating on them, they get out without anyone
noticing and they come back with friends. IMHO that's the problem with
"runners".
A big mob that runs can be a problem, of course, but he's going to have the
group's attention (assuming that the group is targeting properly and you don't
have six group members fighting four mob).
Philbo
Perfectly said.
JackiePrice
Our guild is filled with them. All of them know how to play...SMART
wizards. You get a lot who just chain-burn the mobs.
My ranger has snare, but a running mob sometimes will just keep going, even
snared, running ever so slowly away but refusing to go down far enough in
health to stop moving. Frequently I have seen our wizards get impatient
with snare (time is sometimes of the essence) and root the thing solid.
Wizard Roots work REALLY well, IF you know which one to use and when to use
it. There are two types of root spells wizards use, and too many wizards
don't know the differences. Some roots are not designed to hold if the
target is taking damage (a side point: this is like the druid spell
Ensnaring Roots, on the ranger-only Ebony Blade--anyone who thinks the spell
on the ebony blade hasn't used it like I have...its a lifesaver. If you are
losing, and your root proc goes off, BACK OFF immediately, take the time to
heal up...it will hold for up to 2 minutes, and is unlikely to break unless
the mob starts taking damage). Wizards have to know which root spell to
use or they can't root anything.
If its almost dead, many wizards will cast a quick stun so we can finish it
off before it starts running again. This usually works well too. Finally,
the wizard is uniquely suited to stopping running mobs--if they so desire,
they are about the only class assured of being able to nuke any running mob
DEAD in one spell.
I love wizards...I don't play one, but I love them in a group...they are
basically just mobile cannons, but they are so incredibly useful. Not to
mention Evac...for when that lowly mob DOES get away and bring his friends
back...
Kethos
>
>The runner problem usually comes from a little guy in a group spawn. They run
>quickly, nobody is really concentrating on them, they get out without anyone
>noticing and they come back with friends. IMHO that's the problem with
>"runners".
<snip>
I have often seen these "little guys" beat on a damage shield for a bit
and work themselves to the running point when no one expects it. Gotta
snare the little guys right away if there is potential for this to happen.
Kethos
JackiePrice
always be
> able to stop the runner if he's on his toes. Not as good as a snare,
since if
> the mob has friends close at hand he might get to them and your casters
can't
> throw DD around a corner, but still it shouldn't go far.
Snare doesn't break. It lasts a set duration unless cancelled by an outside
force (ie. overwritten.)
y...@mindspring.com
getting killed by a train of no exp greens IS NOT FUN !!!! Especially
after losing 3/4 a bub that took you an entire evening to get....
The Edge <jwe...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:e7cNoYtU$GA.328@cpmsnbbsa02...
abatt...@netscape.net
> Because sitting on your butt medding and healing or rememing spells after
> getting killed by a train of no exp greens IS NOT FUN !!!! Especially
> after losing 3/4 a bub that took you an entire evening to get....
or dying because some stupid druid was being chased by a green (to him, he was
yellow to me!) asking for help, then getting a train of 15 green goblins on you
while the ice giant diplomat is attacking as well.. having to run through the
waves of green trash and dying because you get stunned over and over by mobs
that drop in two spells isn't fun either.
not that i'm bitter.
--
josh
Matt Walters
hold time. Snare lasts almost 2 minutes as far as I can tell, if you're in
a dungeon and aren't taking things down in 2 minutes, there's another
problem there, also, the druid can just recast snare if it starts to move
due to snare running out, it costs us a whopping 15 mana to cast (yes,
sarcasm there), it's one of our best tools, and if you ask me one of the
best spells in the game. I've been in groups before where I was fighting a
mob and a group member starts yelling at me about their sow running out, and
I reply that it's snared and they can't seem to get it through their head
that my use of snare will save their butt as easily if not easier than me
sowing them. I think this has to go with people needing to learn how to
group with other classes, I'm sure enchanters have similar gripes about
their spells and people in their groups.
Slithey Tove <sli...@pond.com> wrote in message
news:INfc4.9011$Ce.1...@monger.newsread.com...
> I stand corrected. What happens instead, is that its time limit runs out,
> the mob bolts and runs, and the usual disasterous train ensues. It's
shorter
> than Enstill; not sure how it compares to Root.
>
> Druids and rangers seem to have an almost supernatural faith in snare, and
> are continually yelling for the root casters NOT to cast root, because
they
> have the critter snared. Then the snare runs out, and the critter bolts.
No,
> it doesn't break because of magic, perhaps, but it breaks at the end of a
> given time limit.
>