Drow=evil Rant
Barbarian X
How can anyone argue that all drow are evil?
Do we still think that all Germans are evil since they supported hitler?
The things Vic tells us about (at least if we romance her) is very
horryfying, but yet that does not make all Drow evil per say.
This is alot of speculation on my part since I have never read anything from
the forgotten realms, nor have played any PnP AD&D, but:
If understand it correctly a group of elves once had a big disagreement with
the rest and got exiled below ground. Bitter and vengeful they tried to find
a way to survive, despite the totally different world down there.
The Drow civlization is a very cruel one, but it's not THAT much different
from real life ones. Human sacrifices have been common all over the globe.
Torture is still used in a majoroty of the prisons on the globe. etc etc.
And besides, most drow have never experienced anything else except when A:
attacking surfacers or B: being attacked by surfacers.
Only a handful (including Drizzt and Viconia) have actually met a single
surfacer that have accepted them for what they are, and managed to heal
them, so to speak.
Back to my comparrison with the third reich:
The germans were convinced that Hitler was a wonderful great leader. They
were convinced that they would win the war, and they were convinced that it
was in their right to attack other people.
Does that make them evil? No. It makes them manipulated, and guilty of the
most common crime of all: Lack of Thinking.
Of course there are drows that are extremely evil. Most of them have
advanced to clerics, handmaidens or something similar.
Himler was not really a nice guy...
/S
Christian Simmendinger
> After meeting Solafein (and Drizzt, and Viconia)...
> How can anyone argue that all drow are evil?
> Do we still think that all Germans are evil since they supported hitler?
Man - you better keep that thought alive !
I for one went straight to the eggs - grabbed them - and killed
the whole city. Being a german unfortunately i couldn't resist.
See what i mean ?
Murx
Barbarian X
"Christian Simmendinger" <christian.s...@debis-sfr.de> skrev i
meddelandet news:3B83AD03...@debis-sfr.de...
No I don't. Methinks you A: missunderstood my post completely or B: is
pulling my leg.
/S
Shadrach
>After meeting Solafein (and Drizzt, and Viconia)...
>How can anyone argue that all drow are evil?
I recently read R. A. Salvatore's book about Drizzt's childhood, and my
impression was that the Drow are a product of their upbringing. Their
society teaches them to be cruel and so the vast majority of them grow up
that way (Drizzt was 'saved' by his weapons master, who still had a rare
streak of compassion). I don't think that it's fair to brand them as
inherently evil: any child brought up in such an environment will become
extremely unpleasant by the time they reach adulthood.
>Do we still think that all Germans are evil since they supported hitler?
Some people do, unfortunately. My maternal grandmother is convinced that
all Germans are evil and gets very upset at any hint of disagreement, and
there are even those without the dubious 'excuse' of living through WW2 who
feel similarly. As you say later in your post, the popular support for
Hitler was a product of charismatic leadership and propaganda (and a
definite sense of bitterness; the reparations imposed on Germany after WW1
devastated its economy and caused great hardship for years. This may or may
not have been justified, but it lead to deep resentment). And, of course,
there were a significant number of Germans who didn't support Hitler.
The Drow, in contrast, essentially have evil instilled into them from birth.
It actually gets rather silly; I remember thinking while reading the book
that no society so twisted would ever survive for so long. Anyway, my basic
point is that any Drow that a surfacer meets is almost certain to be evil;
those like Drizzt are rare exceptions, so it's not surprising that the Drow
have gained an ill reputation. It's interesting that even when Drizzt
proves himself to be a thoroughly nice chap he's still treated with distrust
and hostility by many of the surfacers whose lives he saves - bigotry is
alive and well and living happily in the Forgotten Realms, just as it is
here.
Regards
Shadrach
Barbarian X
"Shadrach" <al...@celestus.spam.trap.demon.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:998481980.23572.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
> Barbarian X wrote in message <_cMg7.82$S5....@nntpserver.swip.net>...
>
> >After meeting Solafein (and Drizzt, and Viconia)...
>
> >How can anyone argue that all drow are evil?
>
>
> I recently read R. A. Salvatore's book about Drizzt's childhood, and my
> impression was that the Drow are a product of their upbringing. Their
> society teaches them to be cruel and so the vast majority of them grow up
> that way (Drizzt was 'saved' by his weapons master, who still had a rare
> streak of compassion). I don't think that it's fair to brand them as
> inherently evil: any child brought up in such an environment will become
> extremely unpleasant by the time they reach adulthood.
My point exactly :)
>
> >Do we still think that all Germans are evil since they supported hitler?
>
> Some people do, unfortunately. My maternal grandmother is convinced that
> all Germans are evil and gets very upset at any hint of disagreement, and
> there are even those without the dubious 'excuse' of living through WW2
who
> feel similarly. As you say later in your post, the popular support for
> Hitler was a product of charismatic leadership and propaganda (and a
> definite sense of bitterness; the reparations imposed on Germany after WW1
> devastated its economy and caused great hardship for years. This may or
may
> not have been justified, but it lead to deep resentment). And, of course,
> there were a significant number of Germans who didn't support Hitler.
Ah yes, but what should they do?
Most did like Solafein (sp?) does, keep quiet and behaves.
>
> The Drow, in contrast, essentially have evil instilled into them from
birth.
> It actually gets rather silly; I remember thinking while reading the book
> that no society so twisted would ever survive for so long.
Have you seen the 5 part TV documentary "Hitlers children"? its a totally
horryfying documentary about Hitlerjurgend, and how kids from the age of 5
or so got brainwashed into serving Hitler. To a point where 14 year old boys
were willing to die (They actually had a whole battalion of kids only) for
him in the last battle of Berlin, when everything alread was lost.
They even killed older soldiers (and civilians) who dared to speak bad
things about Hitler.
/S
Geoffrey Brent
> After meeting Solafein (and Drizzt, and Viconia)...
> How can anyone argue that all drow are evil?
Well, Vic _is_ Neutral Evil...
> Do we still think that all Germans are evil since they supported hitler?
There is a vast difference between believing that everybody in
group X is evil, and believing that one can't afford to trust group
X. In wartime, protecting oneself and one's allies can and often
does mean killing people who aren't particularly evil, because
that's the nature of war.
> Back to my comparrison with the third reich:
> The germans were convinced that Hitler was a wonderful great leader. They
> were convinced that they would win the war, and they were convinced that it
> was in their right to attack other people.
Be wary of generalizations. A great many Germans did _not_ believe
that Hitler was a good leader, or that what he did was right, but the
alternatives to serving Hitler were not pleasant.
Which meant, incidentally, that a lot of essentially good people
served in the German armed forces. Some of them killed good
people from the Allied side, and some of them were killed by
good people from the Allied side. One of the uglier things about
war is that it often requires good people to kill other good people
without stopping to ask them whether they really want to fight.
> Does that make them evil? No. It makes them manipulated, and guilty of the
> most common crime of all: Lack of Thinking.
> Of course there are drows that are extremely evil. Most of them have
> advanced to clerics, handmaidens or something similar.
Remind me again, what class is Viconia? ;-)
Geoffrey Brent
Barbarian X
"Geoffrey Brent" <g.b...@student.unsw.edu.NOS.PAM.au> skrev i meddelandet
news:3B83A096...@student.unsw.edu.NOS.PAM.au...
> Barbarian X wrote:
> > Does that make them evil? No. It makes them manipulated, and guilty of
the
> > most common crime of all: Lack of Thinking.
> > Of course there are drows that are extremely evil. Most of them have
> > advanced to clerics, handmaidens or something similar.
>
> Remind me again, what class is Viconia? ;-)
>
> Geoffrey Brent
*Evil chuckle* Got me got me ;)
it DOES amaze me tho how some people have an easier time accepting an Ogre
Mage, some Gnolls and a minotaur as "worth trusting" but not Viconia, who
gladly helps you in your cause, saving your life a good amount of times...
/S
Christian Simmendinger
>>
>
> No I don't. Methinks you A: missunderstood my post completely or B: is
> pulling my leg.
Uh
Actually i tried - in polite fashion - to get some sort of message across:
Please don't compare the drow/baldurs gate/a vidgame/you get the idea
to nazi germany. Me thinks such comparisons are a bit sick.
Christian
Barbarian X
My whole point of that post was that it is WRONG to assume a whole race /
country is EVIL because of the way their society works.
So, I still think you missunderstood my post completely.
/S
McNab
You have to read the books ... I recomend the IceWindDale Trilogy
first. Just to spice up your interest in Drizzt and his heritage.
Then get into the Dark Elf trilogy (R.A. Salvidor). In my opionion,
they are the best forgotten realms books ever! Very complex society,
but simple at the same time. They don't have "Hitler" but Lolth, the
spider queen. She is an evil god which no one messes with. She can
tame a demon with a stare! The drow are in a constant state of war.
(kinda like the book 1984 ... but more self imposed) Either at war
with the surface, others in the Underdark or themselves or (and
usually) all three at once! Actually, they are always at war with
themselves. Between being in Lolths favor (this IS a big deal) and
"rank" of families, they are always tring to "one up" the others.
Women rule and men are like "tools". Surface ppl think they are
terrible (which they are to there standards), but the Drow think that
the Surfacer's are terrible as well. The game is a little off.
Viconia would now be on the surface. Women are completly dedicated to
Lolth, it's their live, so to speak. When Drizzt finally surfaced, it
took him a really long time even to see in the surface world. Lets
just say that the sun messed him ... bad. His cloths even fell apart.
He did make buddies with a giant Grizzly bear ... but thats part of
the story. I haven't gotten to the underdark yet in my game ... but I
can't wait! All I can say is ... read the books! They are all evil
by nature and the way they are raised.
Enjoy!
Jamie
Geoffrey Brent
> it DOES amaze me tho how some people have an easier time accepting an Ogre
> Mage, some Gnolls and a minotaur as "worth trusting" but not Viconia, who
> gladly helps you in your cause, saving your life a good amount of times...
Well, if the game gave me the option, my PC would've stayed on
in hiding afterwards to listen in on their conversation. "At last we
have peace wit humans" = GOOD, "Hehehe now we eat dem
tasty fools" = BAD. Gnolls and minotaurs aren't terribly bright, so
if they're trying to deceive the PC they probably won't do a very
good job at it.
Viconia, OTOH, is intelligent enough that she _could_, if she felt
like it, keep a deception going for a long time without giving herself
away, so it's a bit harder to be sure whether she's telling the truth.
Geoffrey Brent
Gavin Wheeler
indeed supposed to be intrinsically evil - they worship an evil
Goddess and sacrifice their own children!
Above ground there are indeed good Drow societies - the followers of
Eilistraee (sp?) for example, and there are individual 'good' Drow
even in the Underdark, such as Drizzt and his father.
And the FR novels 'The Magehound' and 'The Floodgate' suggest that the
Drow became evil due to the influence of an insane mage who spent some
time as a captive of the Unseelie (dark fairies). The time as a
captive of the Unseelie Court allowed the mage to learn much of their
magic, at the cost of becoming a complete nutter due to their
tortures.
Chocobo_C
It's kindda like there are 20people in a room (10evil, and 10 good, but
assume we don't know that), and somehow you meet the 10evil first. Most
people would come to an immediate conclusion that all the 20people are
evil(or vise vessa).
Or an easier example would be most older people today thinks young adult
that smoke, drink, and change their hair's color are consider as bad kids.
I guess this people just like to read the opening sentence, and the
conclusion. They never really read the plot...
Kish
You're right. Except that--well, I've only just started playing
Baldur's Gate, so I'll speak to PnP D&D, not Baldur's Gate:
Not /all/ drow are ever presented as evil there.
The society is evil (pretty much as you described it), and so most drow
are evil. But the original Drow of the Underdark supplement notes that
approximately 15% of drow elves have alignments in the Neutral to Good
ranges. The Third Edition Monster Manual notes that drow elves are
"Usually neutral evil." Not always, but usually.
--
Kish
ICQ# 28085879
AIM Kish K M
Talen
<al...@celestus.spam.trap.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Barbarian X wrote in message <_cMg7.82$S5....@nntpserver.swip.net>...
>
>>After meeting Solafein (and Drizzt, and Viconia)...
>
>>How can anyone argue that all drow are evil?
>
>I recently read R. A. Salvatore's book about Drizzt's childhood, and my
>impression was that the Drow are a product of their upbringing. Their
>society teaches them to be cruel and so the vast majority of them grow up
>that way (Drizzt was 'saved' by his weapons master, who still had a rare
>streak of compassion). I don't think that it's fair to brand them as
>inherently evil: any child brought up in such an environment will become
>extremely unpleasant by the time they reach adulthood.
Besides... at last check (and again, I'm wearing underpants of
ignorance here), Drow aren't _evil_ in that they overtly attempt to
boil small children on a daily basis. In my understanding, they're
basically a nation of pricks.
Of course, they have a shithouse god, but do they really have many
alternatives in the underdark? 6.6;
--
Talen
Current Tyrannical Despot of the "We Love Talen" fanclub
Several Sandwiches Short of A Picnic,
Clue-Stick Wielder Extraordinaire,
Current August Leader of WAM,
And also known as Grammar Jesus
http://shatteredreality.net/talen/
"Live by the sword, live a goooood, looong time."
- Minsc
The Gurus love you
WAM: 161 BBB: 265
ratt
> Have you seen the 5 part TV documentary "Hitlers children"? its a totally
> horryfying documentary about Hitlerjurgend, and how kids from the age of 5
> or so got brainwashed into serving Hitler. To a point where 14 year old
boys
> were willing to die
There was a unit Codenamed "were wolf" who were trained as assasins to kill
allied
troops in case berlin fell the youngest captured was 12 and the oldest 16.
Bob Tokyo
"Talen" <tal...@spamspamspamspam.optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:rm77ot8b69clfmjbs...@4ax.com...
> It has been brought to my attention that "Shadrach"
> <al...@celestus.spam.trap.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Barbarian X wrote in message <_cMg7.82$S5....@nntpserver.swip.net>...
> >
> >>After meeting Solafein (and Drizzt, and Viconia)...
> >
> >>How can anyone argue that all drow are evil?
> >
> >I recently read R. A. Salvatore's book about Drizzt's childhood, and my
> >impression was that the Drow are a product of their upbringing. Their
> >society teaches them to be cruel and so the vast majority of them grow up
> >that way (Drizzt was 'saved' by his weapons master, who still had a rare
> >streak of compassion). I don't think that it's fair to brand them as
> >inherently evil: any child brought up in such an environment will become
> >extremely unpleasant by the time they reach adulthood.
>
> Besides... at last check (and again, I'm wearing underpants of
> ignorance here), Drow aren't _evil_ in that they overtly attempt to
> boil small children on a daily basis. In my understanding, they're
> basically a nation of pricks.
Um, nope, actually they don't specifically boil young children on a daily
basis. The ritually sacrifice young children, torture young children, and
butcher young children during coming of age raids on the surface, but no,
they don't actually boil young children. At least not in any of the books
or modules I remember.
The idea of an "Evil" race or even an "Evil" god or nation is unrealistic.
All three exist in D&D, and the Drow are all three in the official game
based novels and supplements. In your campaign and fan fiction, they can be
whatever you'd like.
In my (sadly defunct) campaign, all elves considered humans to be short
lived vermin fit only for an evenings hunt. No human could possibly learn
to speak the elven languages (though a few mages could read it), and only a
few elves ever bothered to learn the languages of humanity. It made for
some interesting changes in the tone of the campaign.
> Of course, they have a shithouse god, but do they really have many
> alternatives in the underdark? 6.6;
>
Your clerics can contact their gods while in the underdark. No reason that
the Drow couldn't worship a god that was not a huge schizophrenic
spiderthing that enjoyed driving them insane.
Geoffrey Brent
Nothing unique about this, really. When a country's overrun, people of
all ages are trained to fight; when it looked as if Leningrad was going to
fall to the Germans, the Soviets were training children as young as 8 in
hand-to-hand combat. 'Boy soldiers' (and not a few girls, too) are all too
common even in modern-day wars in some parts of the world.
Geoffrey Brent
freshie
<n...@valid.adress.com> composed a work, of the following which is an
excerpt:
>After meeting Solafein (and Drizzt, and Viconia)...
>How can anyone argue that all drow are evil?
>Do we still think that all Germans are evil since they supported hitler?
>The things Vic tells us about (at least if we romance her) is very
>horryfying, but yet that does not make all Drow evil per say.
Suspension of disbelief. They are all evil because rules say so.
Except what some guy wrote in a book somewhere about an elf named
Drizz't. Viconia and Soulafein are evil.
Jason Compton
: Drizz't. Viconia and Soulafein are evil.
No he's not. Solaufein is LN: he follows orders like a good boy, until he
finally can't take it anymore. (That's both a judgement call AND the
alignment he's programmed with in the game.)
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Geoffrey Brent
> Suspension of disbelief. They are all evil because rules say so.
> Except what some guy wrote in a book somewhere about an elf named
> Drizz't. Viconia and Soulafein are evil.
Actually, Solaufein is _not_ evil. Try a Detect Evil on him - you may
have to recast if he resists it - and note that no "Solaufein: Evil" message
pops up.
Geoffrey Brent
ElfBard
>She is an evil god which no one messes with. She can
>tame a demon with a stare
Well, yeah. She's a *goddess* they tend to be able to whip demons good ;P
Barbarian X
I still mean it when I said that if it was IRL, I WOULD trust her regardless
(well we can all dream of living in the FR ;).
As far as I can tell (and I have played thru the full (non TOB) romance with
Viconia 4 times) she is completely honest in all situations, if not with
words so with body language. It is very easy to spot when she is lying.
/S
Barbarian X
"Chocobo_C" <choc...@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:gwVg7.93046$B37.2...@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com...
> Or an easier example would be most older people today thinks young adult
> that smoke, drink, and change their hair's color are consider as bad kids.
>
> I guess this people just like to read the opening sentence, and the
> conclusion. They never really read the plot...
Hehe it does sound that some of the people arguing about Viconia's
trustworthiniess have not actually romanced her.
/S
Barbarian X
"McNab" <jmle...@hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:38dc2ca3.01082...@posting.google.com...
> Dude...
>
>When Drizzt finally surfaced, it
> took him a really long time even to see in the surface world. Lets
> just say that the sun messed him ... bad.
So did it take for VIconia. Didn't you ever play BG1?
"THe sun! It BURRRNS!!" was one of Viconia's most common lines in that game.
/S
N. M. Wallace
> After meeting Solafein (and Drizzt, and Viconia)...
> How can anyone argue that all drow are evil?
Because God, in the person of E. Gary Gygax, tells us they are.
> Do we still think that all Germans are evil since they supported hitler?
> The things Vic tells us about (at least if we romance her) is very
> horryfying, but yet that does not make all Drow evil per say.
>
> This is alot of speculation on my part since I have never read anything from
> the forgotten realms, nor have played any PnP AD&D, but:
> If understand it correctly a group of elves once had a big disagreement with
> the rest and got exiled below ground. Bitter and vengeful they tried to find
> a way to survive, despite the totally different world down there.
That's actually the drow party line. The surface elves have a story that
goes something like this:
Lolth was originally Araushnee, consort of Corellon Larethian and one of
the Seldarine. At some point, she decided that she wanted to rule the
Seldarine, and she rebelled. She lost, and was kicked out of the
Seldarine, along with her son Vhaerun and Vhaerun's son Selvetarm.
Eiliastraee actually chose exile, because she foresaw that the
good-aligned drow would need a deity. The drow had primarily worshipped
Lolth before her rebellion, and when she was exiled, she took them with
her.
> The Drow civlization is a very cruel one, but it's not THAT much different
> from real life ones. Human sacrifices have been common all over the globe.
> Torture is still used in a majoroty of the prisons on the globe. etc etc.
> And besides, most drow have never experienced anything else except when A:
> attacking surfacers or B: being attacked by surfacers.
The drow are indoctrinated from childhood with the Directives of Lolth:
that they are to subjugate the other races of the Underdark, then return
to the surface and conquer everyone else, especially their hated surface
cousins.
> Only a handful (including Drizzt and Viconia) have actually met a single
> surfacer that have accepted them for what they are, and managed to heal
> them, so to speak.
Only a handful have actually found some reason to go against everything
their society has taught them. I believe that somewhere aroung 90% of
drow are evil-aligned...of the remaining 10%, most are neutral, with
only a very few ending up as good.
> Back to my comparrison with the third reich:
> The germans were convinced that Hitler was a wonderful great leader. They
> were convinced that they would win the war, and they were convinced that it
> was in their right to attack other people.
Godwin's Law, again.
And the comparison really isn't valid. Only a complete idiot in the
real world would insist that any group of people are inherently all
good or all evil. But D&D gives us the concept of alignment, and with
it the notion that an entire race can be assigned a single alignment. I
think it's rather silly, but it's part of the game system, so I try to
work with it.
Nancy M. Wallace @}----- dark...@pardalis.org
You are the worst kind of parasite. The fact that you are fluffy only
enhances the level of evil.
Justen, "Still in Love"
Derville
Barbarian X <n...@valid.adress.com> wrote in message
news:_cMg7.82$S5....@nntpserver.swip.net...
> After meeting Solafein (and Drizzt, and Viconia)...
> How can anyone argue that all drow are evil?
You can't, plain and simple. There are the exceptions which prove the rule.
However, to argue that all but a *very* small minority of Drow are evil (a
far more workable statement) would probably hold true. But then again, we
all know that Drizzt is just a made up figment of the imagination, and not a
real person, unlike, erm, well...
> Do we still think that all Germans are evil since they supported hitler?
> The things Vic tells us about (at least if we romance her) is very
> horryfying, but yet that does not make all Drow evil per say.
Now, if I didn't have the time on my hands to reply to this post, I might
comment on the oddity of trying to invoke Godwin's law in the very first
post of a thread ;-).
> This is alot of speculation on my part since I have never read anything
from
> the forgotten realms, nor have played any PnP AD&D, but:
> If understand it correctly a group of elves once had a big disagreement
with
> the rest and got exiled below ground. Bitter and vengeful they tried to
find
> a way to survive, despite the totally different world down there.
But wasn't that disagreement a rather bloody little scuffle, for which the
Drow were in no small part to blame? My AD&D history isn't that hot, but if
I know the way cheap fantasy is written, then I'm willing to bet that the
Drow did something very nasty to arouse the indignation of the rest of the
Elves, who then drove the Drow underground.
> The Drow civlization is a very cruel one, but it's not THAT much different
> from real life ones. Human sacrifices have been common all over the globe.
> Torture is still used in a majoroty of the prisons on the globe. etc etc.
> And besides, most drow have never experienced anything else except when A:
> attacking surfacers or B: being attacked by surfacers.
Well, situation A kind of leads to situation B, so being feared and hated by
humans is partly brought about by their ("their" being the race as a whole,
even encompassing Drizzt etc, on the basis that very few people would likely
ask a Drow if he were really a good guy before attacking him on sight) own
actions, but the other point I'd make here is that humans still use examples
of torture and sacrifice as our way of highlighting who the "barbaric"
peoples of the world are. It's a nice and easy way of ignoring the deeper
issues that two different groups of people with wholly different histories,
just might approach a similar problem in two different ways. And given
human nature's overwhelmingly preoccupation with one-upmanship, it's not
really surprising to see certain groups get tagged as whipping boys (Jews,
as one example, have been picked on for centuries, and I'm willing to bet
that almost every country on Earth has certain groups or enclaves of people
who get a raw deal from the rest of society).
Essentially, it all stems down to a convenient shorthand. We associate
human sacrifice and torture with evil, therefore we assume sacrifice = Drow
behaviour = evil. It's the same reason the hero always performs the
selfless act of rescuing the woman from the burning building, at great
personal peril, because we are taught to think Act of Supreme Bloody
Stupidity = Heroic = Good.
> Only a handful (including Drizzt and Viconia) have actually met a single
> surfacer that have accepted them for what they are, and managed to heal
> them, so to speak.
Pop quiz, rookie: (note: for argument's sake, we'll assume that the group
here has had no prior contact with Viconia, so they never sawher in BG1)
You're walking down a lane with a slightly unstable Ranger (complete with
Pack-A-Rodent), a psychotic Red Wizard, and an axe-wielding Dwarven
Berserker, when you see a group of people trying to burn a Drow. Knowing
that roughly 99.9% of all Drow are evil, and that you are busy trying to
find the cash to save a long time friend of yours, would you put your neck
on the line to save someone who would (in all probability) just as soon gut
you as look at you? In a computer game, I'd save her, because I know how
these stories work (selfless act of stupidity = heroic = good), but in real
life I'd just walk on by. Why? Well, to rescue her would involve killing
or somehow forcing my way through a number of my kinsmen, and even if I were
to succeed, I still end up rescuing someone from a race of creatures only
marginally less popular than those Australian spiders who live under the
toilet seat. I know that the computer game has both Power Word:Reload, and
a system of morals based on what goes on in literature, but I know that real
life bears little or no resemblance to any set pattern. Self-preservation
and playing the percentages wins every time, so it's goodnight Vienna for
the Drow.
> Back to my comparrison with the third reich:
> The germans were convinced that Hitler was a wonderful great leader. They
> were convinced that they would win the war, and they were convinced that
it
> was in their right to attack other people.
Were they? For that matter, I wonder if the whole Third Reich thing is the
best example to use here. To an outsider, there seems to be precious little
outward difference between a Palestinian and an Israeli, yet these two
peoples can't go more than a week without some sort of attack by one group
on the other making the news. Heck, we've got a similar thing in Northern
Ireland, where people who live next door to one another openly dislike each
other. If I were forced to compare Drow/Elven hatred to any real life
conflict (thorny issue that it is), then I'd rather use examples such as
these. The only real difference in the case of the Drow is that their skin
is a different colour (another cheap trick, based on the fact that we've all
seen the black and white cowboy films where the bad guy wears black, and the
good guy wears white), to immediately distinguish them from other Elves, but
if we disregard that, we end up with similar people (Elves) being in two
groups, with each group disliking the other, and being ready to attack the
other group on sight. The fact that humans get thrown into the equation to
also side against the Drow should really be overlooked here for the moment.
In a situation like this, I'd suggest that the question is not so much to
ask Are the Drow Evil?, but rather Who, in fact, really is Evil? It's all a
matter of perspective; to a Drow, the surface Elves oppress them, kill them
and generally don't like them; for the surface Elves, the reverse holds
true. Luckily, rather than be forever stuck in this indeterminate muddle,
we have the presence of humans now (hurrah for us!), who settle the issue by
siding against the Drow. Simple, really, we just take our own likenesses,
and as a result the player knows that the enemy of a fellow human is also my
own enemy. There's nothing overly complicated here, it's just painting the
most blindingly obvious stereotype for evil, and then calling it Drow.
I guess that I ought to add here that I really don't like the idea of Drow
being anything other than pure Evil. As I've said above, the whole
portrayal of them has been done with (apparently) the express intent of
making them appear evil beyond redemption, so to see Drizzt and the hordes
of Drizzt-wannabes popping up left, right and centre just dilutes the image,
and causes a boatload of unnecessary confusion. Do we ask if Hobgoblins
should be treated as though they could be good? Of course not, because
Hobgoblins are ugly (ugly = evil), smell (smelly = evil), talk funny (dodgy
voice = always, always evil) and carry a startling variety of martial
accoutrements. OTOH, Drow are pretty, may or may not smell, and carry a
startling variety of martial accoutrements. At the end of the day, I much
prefer to have my scenarios done in black and white, with none of this "Oh,
I want to be good" whingeing, and preferably as little of the "I used to be
good, but now I have felt the Dark Side" as possible.
--
Phil
Back with Freeserve, so remove 'your.inhibitions' to reply
Speaker-to-Customers
"Derville" wrote ...
(Snip)
> I guess that I ought to add here that I really don't like the idea of Drow
> being anything other than pure Evil. As I've said above, the whole
> portrayal of them has been done with (apparently) the express intent of
> making them appear evil beyond redemption, so to see Drizzt and the hordes
> of Drizzt-wannabes popping up left, right and centre just dilutes the
image,
The first real portrayal of the Drow was in the G1-G3, D1-D3, and Q1
adventure modules, later reprinted in a single volume as "Queen of the
Spiders". These pre-dated the Salvatore books by several years. There were
good Drow in the modules, living on the fringes of Drow society, despised
and often killed by the Drow merchant houses. But they were not
Drizzt-wannabes - this was long before Drizzt had been thought of. The Drow
were never supposed to be portrayed as evil beyond redemption as a race.
They were the products of an evil society, but not irredeemable.
> and causes a boatload of unnecessary confusion. Do we ask if Hobgoblins
> should be treated as though they could be good? Of course not, because
> Hobgoblins are ugly (ugly = evil), smell (smelly = evil), talk funny
(dodgy
> voice = always, always evil) and carry a startling variety of martial
> accoutrements.
But it is still evil to kill them for no reason. There are several
occasions in the BG & IWD games when you encounter Orcs, Ogres, Ogre Mages,
Gnolls, etc (I can't specifically remember any Hobgoblins but there probably
are) who you are NOT supposed to kill, but to talk to in a reasonable
fashion.
OTOH, Drow are pretty, may or may not smell, and carry a
> startling variety of martial accoutrements. At the end of the day, I much
> prefer to have my scenarios done in black and white, with none of this
"Oh,
> I want to be good" whingeing, and preferably as little of the "I used to
be
> good, but now I have felt the Dark Side" as possible.
I prefer my scenarios in 32-bit colour.
Paul Speaker-to-Customers
Jason Compton
: And the comparison really isn't valid. Only a complete idiot in the
: real world would insist that any group of people are inherently all
: good or all evil.
I seem to remember in one of the Salvatore books (or was it a different
D&D book?) that some musing goes on about how humans are somewhat unique
in that they come in all sorts of shapes, sizes and propensity to do good
or evil, which is why they've generally been able to run roughshod over
the land.
This is by no means a novel concept in fantasy or sci-fi (look no further
than classic Trek for illustration--all Vulcans are logical, all Klingons
are bearded and nasty, etc.) but since we don't actually have contact with
any other species to go on...
: But D&D gives us the concept of alignment, and with
: it the notion that an entire race can be assigned a single alignment.
But they make the point that humans are unique. I personally think that
idea is just to make people feel good about themselves, or to put
limitations on the special abilities other races tend to get above
humanity, but again, what's the last non-human intelligent society you
used to compare against? :)
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
N. M. Wallace
> N. M. Wallace <dark...@pardalis.org> wrote:
>
> : And the comparison really isn't valid. Only a complete idiot in the
> : real world would insist that any group of people are inherently all
> : good or all evil.
>
> I seem to remember in one of the Salvatore books (or was it a different
> D&D book?) that some musing goes on about how humans are somewhat unique
> in that they come in all sorts of shapes, sizes and propensity to do good
> or evil, which is why they've generally been able to run roughshod over
> the land.
It's in one of the chapter forwards to a Drizzt book, but I don't
remember which one.
> But they make the point that humans are unique. I personally think that
> idea is just to make people feel good about themselves, or to put
> limitations on the special abilities other races tend to get above
> humanity, but again, what's the last non-human intelligent society you
> used to compare against? :)
Heh. Good point.
Speaker-to-Customers
"Jason Compton" wrote ...
(snip)
> But they make the point that humans are unique. I personally think that
> idea is just to make people feel good about themselves, or to put
> limitations on the special abilities other races tend to get above
> humanity, but again, what's the last non-human intelligent society you
> used to compare against? :)
Well, my cats are intelligent, and one of them is Chaotic Good and the other
is Lawful Neutral.
And there are always dolphins.
Paul Speaker-to-Cetaceans
"Goodbye, and thanks for all the fish."
Geoffrey Brent
> I seem to remember in one of the Salvatore books (or was it a different
> D&D book?) that some musing goes on about how humans are somewhat unique
> in that they come in all sorts of shapes, sizes and propensity to do good
> or evil, which is why they've generally been able to run roughshod over
> the land.
>
> This is by no means a novel concept in fantasy or sci-fi (look no further
> than classic Trek for illustration--all Vulcans are logical, all Klingons
> are bearded and nasty, etc.) but since we don't actually have contact with
> any other species to go on...
Even outside those genres. Look at just about any British/American fiction
written before, say, 1950, and you'll find that while the Anglo-types are
capable of anything from heroism to villainy, other races are much more
likely to be constrained by stereotypes. Not always bad stereotypes, but
stereotypes nonetheless.
Geoffrey Brent
freshie
<jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com> composed a work, of the following which is
an excerpt:
>freshie <fre...@fastdial.nospam.net> wrote:
>
>: Drizz't. Viconia and Soulafein are evil.
>
>No he's not. Solaufein is LN: he follows orders like a good boy, until he
>finally can't take it anymore. (That's both a judgement call AND the
>alignment he's programmed with in the game.)
Well I would peg him as LE. He does follow order, and he respects the
establishment. However his goal is still to build a strong Drow
society. His opinion is that Drow society has grown weak under their
own pursuit of indulgence, and political infighting. If he had his
way he would return to iron-fisted orderly Drow society. Not that he
would change the ultimate goals of what conquest or service of diety.
Interprate as you wish. There is no rulebook or module written
stating his alignment.
Jason Compton
: own pursuit of indulgence, and political infighting. If he had his
: way he would return to iron-fisted orderly Drow society. Not that he
: would change the ultimate goals of what conquest or service of diety.
: Interprate as you wish. There is no rulebook or module written
: stating his alignment.
All NPCs in the game have an alignment, and Solaufein's is Lawful Neutral.
And maybe you missed it, but Solaufein is not a follower of Lolth. He
doesn't believe in wholesale slaughter or torture.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Geoffrey Brent
> Well I would peg him as LE. He does follow order, and he respects the
> establishment. However his goal is still to build a strong Drow
> society. His opinion is that Drow society has grown weak under their
> own pursuit of indulgence, and political infighting. If he had his
> way he would return to iron-fisted orderly Drow society. Not that he
> would change the ultimate goals of what conquest or service of diety.
I recall his views as being rather more enlightened than that,
but it's been a while; I don't have specific quotes handy.
> Interprate as you wish. There is no rulebook or module written
> stating his alignment.
Actually, in BGII he has a set alignment, and it is _not_ an evil one.
You can confirm this by wading through game data, or more simply
by casting Know Alignment on him.
Geoffrey Brent
freshie
Did I miss something in shadowkeeper? NPC's that join your party have
alignments... everyone who doesn't does?
>And maybe you missed it, but Solaufein is not a follower of Lolth. He
>doesn't believe in wholesale slaughter or torture.
Yes I missed that part where deallinged himself with Lloth. Please
point it out to me, so i don't miss again.
Barbarian X
"Derville" <ph...@your.inhibitions.gledson.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:9m3dm2$9um$2...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Barbarian X <n...@valid.adress.com> wrote in message
> news:_cMg7.82$S5....@nntpserver.swip.net...
> > After meeting Solafein (and Drizzt, and Viconia)...
> > How can anyone argue that all drow are evil?
>
> You can't, plain and simple. There are the exceptions which prove the
rule.
> However, to argue that all but a *very* small minority of Drow are evil (a
> far more workable statement) would probably hold true. But then again, we
> all know that Drizzt is just a made up figment of the imagination, and not
a
> real person, unlike, erm, well...
Unlike... Viconia? ;)
> Now, if I didn't have the time on my hands to reply to this post, I might
> comment on the oddity of trying to invoke Godwin's law in the very first
> post of a thread ;-).
Now be nice ;)
> But wasn't that disagreement a rather bloody little scuffle, for which the
> Drow were in no small part to blame? My AD&D history isn't that hot, but
if
> I know the way cheap fantasy is written, then I'm willing to bet that the
> Drow did something very nasty to arouse the indignation of the rest of the
> Elves, who then drove the Drow underground.
I am sure they did. However, I seem to recollect something about the
elves-to-be-drow thought that the OTHER elves had strayed too far from their
true nature. Or am I mixing them up with the drow-wannabies in Elizabeth
Moon's Paksennarion trilogy?
> Essentially, it all stems down to a convenient shorthand. We associate
> human sacrifice and torture with evil, therefore we assume sacrifice =
Drow
> behaviour = evil. It's the same reason the hero always performs the
> selfless act of rescuing the woman from the burning building, at great
> personal peril, because we are taught to think Act of Supreme Bloody
> Stupidity = Heroic = Good.
*LOL*
>
> > Only a handful (including Drizzt and Viconia) have actually met a single
> > surfacer that have accepted them for what they are, and managed to heal
> > them, so to speak.
>
> Pop quiz, rookie: (note: for argument's sake, we'll assume that the group
> here has had no prior contact with Viconia, so they never sawher in BG1)
> You're walking down a lane with a slightly unstable Ranger (complete with
> Pack-A-Rodent), a psychotic Red Wizard, and an axe-wielding Dwarven
> Berserker, when you see a group of people trying to burn a Drow. Knowing
> that roughly 99.9% of all Drow are evil, and that you are busy trying to
> find the cash to save a long time friend of yours, would you put your neck
> on the line to save someone who would (in all probability) just as soon
gut
> you as look at you?
Well put it this way instead:
I would definitely save her, since I would not let ANYONE die like that.
The question would rather be: "Would I allow her to join my party"?
I think I would say yes to that too. Maybe because I am a guy and she is
yummy, but more so because if I have accepted Korgan the Mutilator and Edwin
the Megalomaniac, and why not accept Viconia the Insecure?
> Were they? For that matter, I wonder if the whole Third Reich thing is
the
> best example to use here. To an outsider, there seems to be precious
little
> outward difference between a Palestinian and an Israeli, yet these two
> peoples can't go more than a week without some sort of attack by one group
> on the other making the news. Heck, we've got a similar thing in Northern
> Ireland, where people who live next door to one another openly dislike
each
> other. If I were forced to compare Drow/Elven hatred to any real life
> conflict (thorny issue that it is), then I'd rather use examples such as
> these.
Yes, the nature of the CONFLICT is very much like that, but my point was the
REASON of the drow mindset. Brainwashing.
> I guess that I ought to add here that I really don't like the idea of Drow
> being anything other than pure Evil. As I've said above, the whole
> portrayal of them has been done with (apparently) the express intent of
> making them appear evil beyond redemption, so to see Drizzt and the hordes
> of Drizzt-wannabes popping up left, right and centre just dilutes the
image,
> and causes a boatload of unnecessary confusion.
But perhaps, storywise, something is happening? The writers might have
decided that pure Black and White IS boring (which it always is, from my
point of view. That is why I think Satan is such a much more interesting
person than God, and that the way Jesus is portraied in that movie
(Temptation something) is much more believable than the ol' bible way.
>Do we ask if Hobgoblins
> should be treated as though they could be good? Of course not, because
> Hobgoblins are ugly (ugly = evil), smell (smelly = evil), talk funny
(dodgy
> voice = always, always evil) and carry a startling variety of martial
> accoutrements.
But maybe we should?
Afterall, even Frodo asked himself, when caught in that ghastly tower, if
not the Orcs were much more similar to the other "noble" races than anyone
had wanted to recognize.
Even a Hobgoblin Grunt must have a sister, a mother or a daughter
somewhere... Of course I do not argue that if you are attacked by 10
knobgoblins you should fight them back, but would you execute a wounded
hobgoblin in cold blood if you fell over him in the forest? I wouldnt.
>OTOH, Drow are pretty, may or may not smell, and carry a
> startling variety of martial accoutrements. At the end of the day, I much
> prefer to have my scenarios done in black and white, with none of this
"Oh,
> I want to be good" whingeing, and preferably as little of the "I used to
be
> good, but now I have felt the Dark Side" as possible.
Ah, and I am on the other side then ;)
Darkness IS soo appealing, but if everything is pure black or white, life
would be SOO dull.
I want my character to have a personality, (Okay, lets face it, all of us,
when first playing PnP Rpgs, created a 7 foot barbarian with a two handed
sword named "Orc Killer", but the older I get the more diversety I want). I
never play evil, I hate it, but I cannot believe in a all good person. I
mean i have broken many laws, I have hurt people... Not tortured them to
death or murdered anyone , but I am definitely not all good.
All the races in the realms, except for the devils and the demons, (and
ilithids, have a little someting of both in them. Look at the shark people,
who respects you and show you gratitude when you help saving their city for
example.
/S
Geoffrey Brent
> > Viconia, OTOH, is intelligent enough that she _could_, if she felt
> > like it, keep a deception going for a long time without giving herself
> > away, so it's a bit harder to be sure whether she's telling the truth.
>
> I still mean it when I said that if it was IRL, I WOULD trust her regardless
> (well we can all dream of living in the FR ;).
> As far as I can tell (and I have played thru the full (non TOB) romance with
> Viconia 4 times) she is completely honest in all situations,
Yeah, but you have the advantage of playing through it four times,
with the option to reload, and knowing that she really does love
you because this is a game and that's how this sort of game always
works. Keldorn doesn't have any of that knowledge, nor does my
PC.
In real life, you have to act with the knowledge that if you misjudge
somebody and they stab you in the back when you're not looking,
that's Game Over.
Geoffrey Brent
Barbarian X
I said that I trusted her the first time already. And I would in real life.
/S
Geoffrey Brent
> rOn Fri, 24 Aug 2001 04:13:16 +0000 (UTC), Jason Compton
> <jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com> composed a work, of the following which is
> an excerpt:
> >All NPCs in the game have an alignment, and Solaufein's is Lawful Neutral.
>
> Did I miss something in shadowkeeper? NPC's that join your party have
> alignments... everyone who doesn't does?
Yup. Otherwise, "Detect Evil" would be singularly pointless.
Geoffrey Brent
Geoffrey Brent
> I want my character to have a personality, (Okay, lets face it, all of us,
> when first playing PnP Rpgs, created a 7 foot barbarian with a two handed
> sword named "Orc Killer", but the older I get the more diversety I want). I
> never play evil, I hate it, but I cannot believe in a all good person. I
> mean i have broken many laws, I have hurt people... Not tortured them to
> death or murdered anyone , but I am definitely not all good.
> All the races in the realms, except for the devils and the demons, (and
> ilithids, have a little someting of both in them.
Agreed. But then, this is why I don't like the P&P presentation of
Drow, because they _are_ too black-and-white.
Geoffrey Brent
Speaker-to-Customers
"Geoffrey Brent" wrote ...
(re Keldorn's attack on Viconia)
> In real life, you have to act with the knowledge that if you misjudge
> somebody and they stab you in the back when you're not looking,
> that's Game Over.
And in real life you have to act with the knowledge that attacking the
girlfriend of a streetfighter, much tougher than you and accompanied by a
bunch of friends all about as tough as you are, will mean Game Over as well.
Keldorn's actions are not only unjustified; they are suicidal.
Paul Speaker-to-Customers
Mark Blunden
news:3B85C0CD...@student.unsw.edu.NOS.PAM.au...
In science (and other) fiction there's a certain justification for it, in
that you're using these other races in an allegorical role, to represent
particular aspects of human nature. The problems come when you try to turn
these same races into realistic, living societies - they always end up being
either terribly shallow or very different from their original portrayal.
Of course, extending this to role-playing creates even more problems. How
can you create a rounded, three-dimensional character whilst at the same
time restricting them to racial or class stereotypes?
--
Mark.
mar...@bigfoot.com
* The second rule of combat - never over-estimate your enemy
Barbarian X
"Mark Blunden" <mar...@bigfoot.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:9m5fn4$ctni$1...@ID-36588.news.dfncis.de...
> Of course, extending this to role-playing creates even more problems. How
> can you create a rounded, three-dimensional character whilst at the same
> time restricting them to racial or class stereotypes?
This is why I hate the alignment system.
/S
Baby Brain
news:9m5b45$1l4$1...@MANNET-3800-2.mcb.net...
And then you'd have to live with the knowledge that you've sided with a drow
against a respected paladin, and are likely now in the future to encounter
groups of heavily armed and annoyed paladins wielding two-handed swords and
crossbows and all with itchy trigger fingers. In real life you wouldnt
attack a cop, not unless you had some kind of death wish.
Barbarian X
"Baby Brain" <baby...@crimsonsaint.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:tochpef...@xo.supernews.co.uk...
The problem is that a Paladin is not a Cop. He is a Superhero, if you will,
but not a Cop.
Besides, why shouldn't I side with the drow if she is right and he is wrong?
"Respected" does not mean "being right". It just means "Respected".
/S
Speaker-to-Customers
"Baby Brain" wrote ...
> "Speaker-to-Customers" wrote ...
The Radiant Heart are not cops. More a paramilitary organisation, or
Vigilantes. As has been repeatedly pointed out when I've complained about
them ignoring crime, they are not the official law enforcement body in
Athkatla at all.
They're also not terribly hard; I've wiped them all out several times,
playing around after having screwed up and experimenting before reloading.
If I'm not bothered about being Public Enemy Number One for the Twisted
Rune, the Red Wizards of Thay, Lolth, the Mind Flayers, and the Harpers, why
should I be bothered about the Radiant Heart?
The villains obviously aren't. If Keldorn dies when he is on your side,
no-one from the Radiant Heart bothers to avenge him. If you don't bother
raising him, and drop in at their HQ later, they don't even ask what's
happened to him. Why would they do so if you kill him?
If Keldorn was a real-life cop all you would need to do would be to video
what he does, and step in to stop him before he actually kills her. Then
sell the videotape to national TV.
And, even in real life, if a cop launched a murderous and unprovoked attack
on my wife I would rip his head off, same as I would if it was not a cop.
Paul Speaker-to-Customers
"It was the Bhaals that made me deaf"
Jason Compton
: <jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com> composed a work, of the following which is
: an excerpt:
:>All NPCs in the game have an alignment, and Solaufein's is Lawful Neutral.
: Did I miss something in shadowkeeper? NPC's that join your party have
: alignments... everyone who doesn't does?
Correct. Use Infinity Explorer if you want to see the alignment of
non-joinable NPCs, including enemies.
:>And maybe you missed it, but Solaufein is not a follower of Lolth. He
:>doesn't believe in wholesale slaughter or torture.
: Yes I missed that part where deallinged himself with Lloth. Please
: point it out to me, so i don't miss again.
If/when you spare his life, he says "May... may Eilistraee, Lady
Silverhair, watch over you always."
He also shows through his attitude and response to Phaere and the whole
Lolth chain of command that he really doesn't dig it.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Luke Goaman-Dodson
> I said that I trusted her the first time already. And I would in
real life.
In real life there aren't dark elf clerics of Shar, though.
Baby Brain
>
> "Baby Brain" wrote ...
> >
> > And then you'd have to live with the knowledge that you've sided with a
> drow
> > against a respected paladin, and are likely now in the future to
encounter
> > groups of heavily armed and annoyed paladins wielding two-handed swords
> and
> > crossbows and all with itchy trigger fingers. In real life you wouldnt
> > attack a cop, not unless you had some kind of death wish.
>
> The Radiant Heart are not cops. More a paramilitary organisation, or
> Vigilantes. As has been repeatedly pointed out when I've complained about
> them ignoring crime, they are not the official law enforcement body in
> Athkatla at all.
Well I'm just assuming that the law has given them some sort of authority to
get out there and rightously murder anyone they think is evil.
> They're also not terribly hard; I've wiped them all out several times,
> playing around after having screwed up and experimenting before reloading.
> If I'm not bothered about being Public Enemy Number One for the Twisted
> Rune, the Red Wizards of Thay, Lolth, the Mind Flayers, and the Harpers,
why
> should I be bothered about the Radiant Heart?
>
> The villains obviously aren't. If Keldorn dies when he is on your side,
> no-one from the Radiant Heart bothers to avenge him. If you don't bother
> raising him, and drop in at their HQ later, they don't even ask what's
> happened to him. Why would they do so if you kill him?
Well thats just the games mechanics for you. I'd assume in a real
organisation like that if word got back to Keldorns buddies that he'd been
killed by you they'd have the power to outlaw you and go looking for
revenge.
Look at the trick Firkraag plays on you, forcing you into hiding from the
order while your new friend goes to sort it all out.
> If Keldorn was a real-life cop all you would need to do would be to video
> what he does, and step in to stop him before he actually kills her. Then
> sell the videotape to national TV.
Good idea, though cameras dont exist on FR, so perhaps some kind of magical
holograph instead. Still given the common peoples hatred for all drow I've
gotta believe the public opinion would still rate against you.
> And, even in real life, if a cop launched a murderous and unprovoked
attack
> on my wife I would rip his head off, same as I would if it was not a cop.
As would almost anyone I think, though if this cop is well liked at the
station your life is still as good as over, unless you video taped the
incident and sent it to national TV.
And back to the game I doubt many NPC's would wilfully back you up anyway,
because they simply dont trust drow, and they dont like Vic. Even Edwin and
Korgan would probably be pragmatic, they've little to gain supporting
Viconia as she's nothing to pay them with (well nothing they wouldnt
normally have to pay for themselves anyway) OTOH they dont want Paladins
pestering them.
Barbarian X
"Luke Goaman-Dodson" <bel...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9m5om6$n7f$1...@uranium.btinternet.com...
ANd no BOO's either. Both is a pity. ;)
/S
Barbarian X
My point exactly :)
I have never played PnP AD&D since I loathe the alignment system as such.
The alignment could be there, but it should be defined from the actions and
thoughts, not the other way around (like in PS:T).
In AD&D you pick an alignment and then form the person around that, instead
of truly roleplaying a character and see what alignment he turns out to be.
/S
N. M. Wallace
> Well I would peg him as LE. He does follow order, and he respects the
> establishment. However his goal is still to build a strong Drow
> society. His opinion is that Drow society has grown weak under their
> own pursuit of indulgence, and political infighting. If he had his
> way he would return to iron-fisted orderly Drow society. Not that he
> would change the ultimate goals of what conquest or service of diety.
>
> Interprate as you wish. There is no rulebook or module written
> stating his alignment.
From InfExp:
Name: Solaufein
Race: Elf
Class: Fighter 12
Gender: Male
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
In addition, he says in the game that he worships Eiliastraee, the
goddess of the good drow. Technically, he should have to be one of the
Good alignments, since she only takes good-aligned worshippers.
Speaker-to-Customers
"Baby Brain" wrote ...
(re Keldorn's unprovoked attack on Viconia)
(Snip)
> And back to the game I doubt many NPC's would wilfully back you up anyway,
> because they simply dont trust drow, and they dont like Vic. Even Edwin
and
> Korgan would probably be pragmatic, they've little to gain supporting
> Viconia as she's nothing to pay them with (well nothing they wouldnt
> normally have to pay for themselves anyway) OTOH they dont want Paladins
> pestering them.
Minsc would back me up. He judges people by their actions, and I have known
him lose his temper with Elban and with Jaheira in defence of Viconia. The
attack on Viconia is an act of evil, and Keldorn would taste hamster
justice.
Jaheira would back me up. For all her verbal sparring with Viconia, Jaheira
will always do what is right.
Yoshimo would back me up, for more than one reason.
Imoen would back me against anyone, any time.
My parties always include at least 2 of those 4, so 4 to 2 in my favour
would be the worst possible odds, and 5 to 1 is overwhelmingly probable.
Keldorn's actions are evil, irrational, and suicidal.
So much so that Char_Name would probably try to subdue him, reckoning that
he had been Dire Charmed, Dominated, Confused or Rigid Thinking-ed by some
unseen enemy; Keldorn having shown no previous signs of being an insance
suicidal psychopath.
Paul Speaker-to-Customers
Leo Fellmann
"Kish" <Kis...@pacbell.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3B84285D...@pacbell.net...
> Barbarian X wrote:
>
> You're right. Except that--well, I've only just started playing
> Baldur's Gate, so I'll speak to PnP D&D, not Baldur's Gate:
>
> Not /all/ drow are ever presented as evil there.
>
> The society is evil (pretty much as you described it), and so most drow
> are evil. But the original Drow of the Underdark supplement notes that
> approximately 15% of drow elves have alignments in the Neutral to Good
> ranges.
Ellistrae. Possibly Vhaerun also.
Leo Fellmann
"Derville" <ph...@your.inhibitions.gledson.fsnet.co.uk> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:9m3dm2$9um$2...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > This is alot of speculation on my part since I have never read anything
> from
> > the forgotten realms, nor have played any PnP AD&D, but:
> > If understand it correctly a group of elves once had a big disagreement
> with
> > the rest and got exiled below ground. Bitter and vengeful they tried to
> find
> > a way to survive, despite the totally different world down there.
>
> But wasn't that disagreement a rather bloody little scuffle, for which the
> Drow were in no small part to blame? My AD&D history isn't that hot, but
if
> I know the way cheap fantasy is written, then I'm willing to bet that the
> Drow did something very nasty to arouse the indignation of the rest of the
> Elves, who then drove the Drow underground.
Namely started worshipping Lolth and waging war on everybody else.
> > The Drow civlization is a very cruel one, but it's not THAT much
different
> > from real life ones. Human sacrifices have been common all over the
globe.
Aztecs.
> > Torture is still used in a majoroty of the prisons on the globe. etc
etc.
> > And besides, most drow have never experienced anything else except when
A:
> > attacking surfacers or B: being attacked by surfacers.
>
> Well, situation A kind of leads to situation B, so being feared and hated
by
> humans is partly brought about by their ("their" being the race as a
whole,
> even encompassing Drizzt etc, on the basis that very few people would
likely
> ask a Drow if he were really a good guy before attacking him on sight) own
> actions, but the other point I'd make here is that humans still use
examples
> of torture and sacrifice as our way of highlighting who the "barbaric"
> peoples of the world are. It's a nice and easy way of ignoring the deeper
> issues that two different groups of people with wholly different
histories,
> just might approach a similar problem in two different ways. And given
> human nature's overwhelmingly preoccupation with one-upmanship, it's not
> really surprising to see certain groups get tagged as whipping boys (Jews,
> as one example, have been picked on for centuries,
Because they had money. I doubt the surface elves were jealous of the Drow.
> Essentially, it all stems down to a convenient shorthand. We associate
> human sacrifice and torture with evil, therefore we assume sacrifice =
Drow
> behaviour = evil. It's the same reason the hero always performs the
> selfless act of rescuing the woman from the burning building, at great
> personal peril, because we are taught to think Act of Supreme Bloody
> Stupidity = Heroic = Good.
No, Act of self-sacrifice == good.
> > Only a handful (including Drizzt and Viconia) have actually met a single
> > surfacer that have accepted them for what they are, and managed to heal
> > them, so to speak.
>
> Pop quiz, rookie: (note: for argument's sake, we'll assume that the group
> here has had no prior contact with Viconia, so they never sawher in BG1)
But the game assumes the PC has.
> Were they? For that matter, I wonder if the whole Third Reich thing is
the
> best example to use here. To an outsider, there seems to be precious
little
> outward difference between a Palestinian and an Israeli,
Religion perhaps?
yet these two
> peoples can't go more than a week without some sort of attack by one group
> on the other making the news. Heck, we've got a similar thing in Northern
> Ireland, where people who live next door to one another openly dislike
each
> other.
Oooh. Could it be religion again?
Maybe it's because of their deity that everyone seems to loathe them?
If I were forced to compare Drow/Elven hatred to any real life
> conflict (thorny issue that it is), then I'd rather use examples such as
> these. The only real difference in the case of the Drow is that their
skin
> is a different colour (another cheap trick, based on the fact that we've
all
> seen the black and white cowboy films where the bad guy wears black, and
the
> good guy wears white)
Black - I once saw a theory that stated that it's an efficient color for
hiding from infravision.
> In a situation like this, I'd suggest that the question is not so much to
> ask Are the Drow Evil?, but rather Who, in fact, really is Evil?
Lloth. This is really quite clear.
It's all a
> matter of perspective; to a Drow, the surface Elves oppress them, kill
them
> and generally don't like them; for the surface Elves, the reverse holds
> true.
The surface Elves don't raid the Drow. The drow raid the surfacers.
> I guess that I ought to add here that I really don't like the idea of
Drow
> being anything other than pure Evil. As I've said above, the whole
> portrayal of them has been done with (apparently) the express intent of
> making them appear evil beyond redemption, so to see Drizzt and the hordes
> of Drizzt-wannabes popping up left, right and centre just dilutes the
image,
> and causes a boatload of unnecessary confusion. Do we ask if Hobgoblins
> should be treated as though they could be good? Of course not, because
> Hobgoblins are ugly (ugly = evil), smell (smelly = evil), talk funny
(dodgy
> voice = always, always evil) and carry a startling variety of martial
> accoutrements.
And black leather. That's really evil.
OTOH, Drow are pretty, may or may not smell, and carry a
> startling variety of martial accoutrements
But they have godesses with tentacules! That's soo cool...
Leo Fellmann
"Barbarian X" <n...@valid.adress.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:Mwnh7.375$S5....@nntpserver.swip.net...
> But perhaps, storywise, something is happening? The writers might have
> decided that pure Black and White IS boring (which it always is, from my
> point of view. That is why I think Satan is such a much more interesting
> person than God, and that the way Jesus is portraied in that movie
> (Temptation something) is much more believable than the ol' bible way.
>
>
> >Do we ask if Hobgoblins
> > should be treated as though they could be good? Of course not, because
> > Hobgoblins are ugly (ugly = evil), smell (smelly = evil), talk funny
> (dodgy
> > voice = always, always evil) and carry a startling variety of martial
> > accoutrements.
>
> But maybe we should?
> Afterall, even Frodo asked himself, when caught in that ghastly tower, if
> not the Orcs were much more similar to the other "noble" races than anyone
> had wanted to recognize.
> Even a Hobgoblin Grunt must have a sister, a mother or a daughter
> somewhere... Of course I do not argue that if you are attacked by 10
> knobgoblins you should fight them back, but would you execute a wounded
> hobgoblin in cold blood if you fell over him in the forest? I wouldnt.
Sounds like you need to read some Dragonlance.
Geoffrey Brent
> > Agreed. But then, this is why I don't like the P&P presentation of
> > Drow, because they _are_ too black-and-white.
>
> My point exactly :)
> I have never played PnP AD&D since I loathe the alignment system as such.
Well, there's an easy enough solution - ignore the alignment rules.
It's quite possible to play AD&D without using the alignment system;
about all you have to do is use common sense to determine whether
someone is acting as befits a paladin/cleric/etc (which you'd have to
do anyway), and fudge a few alignment-dependent items.
Geoffrey Brent
Geoffrey Brent
> "Geoffrey Brent" wrote ...
> (re Keldorn's attack on Viconia)
> > In real life, you have to act with the knowledge that if you misjudge
> > somebody and they stab you in the back when you're not looking,
> > that's Game Over.
>
> And in real life you have to act with the knowledge that attacking the
> girlfriend of a streetfighter, much tougher than you and accompanied by a
> bunch of friends all about as tough as you are, will mean Game Over as well.
Actually, no, that comment wasn't "re Keldorn's attack on Viconia",
it was re. the PC's decision on whether or not to trust her. Not that
Keldorn mightn't be stupid enough to try what you're talking about
anyway, but that's not what I was referring to.
If you look at the previous posts in this thread, you'll see that Barbarian
X was talking about *his PC's* decision to trust Vic, not Keldorn's.
Geoffrey Brent
Geoffrey Brent
> Of course, extending this to role-playing creates even more problems. How
> can you create a rounded, three-dimensional character whilst at the same
> time restricting them to racial or class stereotypes?
Exactly. It's like looking for a three-dimensional black character in
a Biggles book :-)
Geoffrey Brent
Lotta Roti
"Jason Compton" <jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote in message
news:9m5j1r$ht$1...@flood.xnet.com...
<Soulafein>:
> : Yes I missed that part where deallinged himself with Lloth. Please
> : point it out to me, so i don't miss again.
>
> If/when you spare his life, he says "May... may Eilistraee, Lady
> Silverhair, watch over you always."
And, if you choose the right dialogue options when you are sent to kill him,
he tells you that Lolth holds no sway of his heart, that he believes that
the drow's ways are wrong and worshops Eilistraee.
Lotta Roti
> Well, there's an easy enough solution - ignore the alignment rules.
> It's quite possible to play AD&D without using the alignment system;
> about all you have to do is use common sense to determine whether
> someone is acting as befits a paladin/cleric/etc (which you'd have to
> do anyway), and fudge a few alignment-dependent items.
>
variety of attitudes, ideas and dispositions of people. I usually choose an
alignment with a "close enough" method, but don't enforce it any way with
players.
Baby Brain
>
> "Baby Brain" wrote ...
>
> (re Keldorn's unprovoked attack on Viconia)
> (Snip)
>
> > And back to the game I doubt many NPC's would wilfully back you up
anyway,
> > because they simply dont trust drow, and they dont like Vic. Even Edwin
> and
> > Korgan would probably be pragmatic, they've little to gain supporting
> > Viconia as she's nothing to pay them with (well nothing they wouldnt
> > normally have to pay for themselves anyway) OTOH they dont want Paladins
> > pestering them.
>
> Minsc would back me up. He judges people by their actions, and I have
known
> him lose his temper with Elban and with Jaheira in defence of Viconia.
The
> attack on Viconia is an act of evil, and Keldorn would taste hamster
> justice.
I suppose he would at that. I expect even Aerie might back you up, 1.
because she worships the very ground bhaalspawn walks on (even if you have
shunned her in favour of another woman whom she doesnt trust at all) and 2.
she hates injustice also. Jan would have no idea what was going on and
wouldnt be interested anyway because it in no way involves turnips, unless
you've elected to use turnips as a key weapon in subduing Keldorn. LG
Anomen, Mazzy and Nalia would be too sure of themselves and their righteous
goodness to ever bother doubting it. Valygar would just go and sulk
somewhere until its all over.
> Jaheira would back me up. For all her verbal sparring with Viconia,
Jaheira
> will always do what is right.
I suppose it depends on which side the cursed balance is leaning on at the
time.
> Yoshimo would back me up, for more than one reason.
Probably, but first he'll advise not to get involved at all, followed by
asking that you analyse the situation more thoroughly, followed by what the
hell.
> Imoen would back me against anyone, any time.
Sure enough she'd follow you through the gates of hell, and in fact has now
several times.
> My parties always include at least 2 of those 4, so 4 to 2 in my favour
> would be the worst possible odds, and 5 to 1 is overwhelmingly probable.
> Keldorn's actions are evil, irrational, and suicidal.
>
> So much so that Char_Name would probably try to subdue him, reckoning that
> he had been Dire Charmed, Dominated, Confused or Rigid Thinking-ed by some
> unseen enemy; Keldorn having shown no previous signs of being an insance
> suicidal psychopath.
Paladins are suicidal, its in the job description. Even if there was an
entire army with heavy artillery he'd charge in a bold effort to destroy
something evil. Which is exceptionally stupid but in literature stupid is
just another word for good. And then he honestly does expect good people to
be on his side against an evil drow priestess, even if she has comited no
crime that we know of.
I suppose these drow stir strong emotions amongst surface folk, seems their
used as scapegoats for just about everything. I understand Keldorns actions
though, he and almost everyone else have been taught that drow are
automatically the most vile of all evil creatures from birth. It took
Drizzt a couple of average human lifetimes consistantly being good before
people began trusting him.
I think its fair to say that Viconia hasnt exactly been a lovely flowery
person up til this point of her life so Keldorn and everyone else have no
reason to trust her. It would be nice if the game took into account things
like her saving Keldorn in battle, raising him etc but it doesnt. But then
Keldorn might just decide that she only did so because you ordered it
anyway.
Geoffrey Brent
> If I were forced to compare Drow/Elven hatred to any real life
> > conflict (thorny issue that it is), then I'd rather use examples such as
> > these. The only real difference in the case of the Drow is that their
> skin
> > is a different colour (another cheap trick, based on the fact that we've
> all
> > seen the black and white cowboy films where the bad guy wears black, and
> the
> > good guy wears white)
>
> Black - I once saw a theory that stated that it's an efficient color for
> hiding from infravision.
Do you recall any details? Just as black objects are better at absorbing
heat (in particular, IR) than white ones, so they're also better at emitting it.
Other factors being equal, a black-skinned creature in total darkness at
37C (or whatever body temperature elves have) would give off more IR
than a light-skinned ditto. If anything, black skin should be the _worst_
colour for hiding from a passive-IR system, like infravision (or a modern
military thermograph system.)
It would probably do better at hiding from active-IR systems, i.e. those
that provide their own IR light source (whatever the fantasy equivalent
is of an IR searchlight or flashlight), but using active IR precludes hiding
from others with infravision - you light yourself up, just as you would if
you used a flashlight to see your way around.
Geoffrey Brent
Lotta Roti
"Baby Brain" <baby...@crimsonsaint.co.uk> wrote in message
news:todtifg...@xo.supernews.co.uk...
> in literature stupid is
> just another word for good
LOL! That is what bothers me about goodness. Neutralness is much more
interesting, evil is much more cool.
Nadazgada
Was Sturm Brightblade 3d enough?
Just curious.
--
"Sommerswerd... overrated
Dagger of Vashna... too short
Helshezaag... not dark enough..."
Nadazgada
Gnaag's loyal servant.
Nadazgada
Barbarian X <n...@validaddress.com> wrote in message
news:9m66a4$djj$1...@yggdrasil.utfors.se...
Omigod! Are you sure. NOOOO!!!!
Months of life wasted searching for the great giant space hamster....
*Off to feel depressed*
--
"Why...
Its so cruel..."
Nadazgada
Upon learning RL and fantasy is different.
Kish
>
> "Barbarian X" <n...@valid.adress.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:Mwnh7.375$S5....@nntpserver.swip.net...
> Sounds like you need to read some Dragonlance.
Whyso? I've read a fair amount of Dragonlance, but I can't place the
quality you're referring to in it.
--
Kish
ICQ# 28085879
AIM Kish K M
Jason Compton
: I suppose he would at that. I expect even Aerie might back you up, 1.
: because she worships the very ground bhaalspawn walks on (even if you have
: shunned her in favour of another woman whom she doesnt trust at all) and 2.
: she hates injustice also. Jan would have no idea what was going on and
: wouldnt be interested anyway because it in no way involves turnips, unless
: you've elected to use turnips as a key weapon in subduing Keldorn. LG
: Anomen, Mazzy and Nalia would be too sure of themselves and their righteous
: goodness to ever bother doubting it. Valygar would just go and sulk
: somewhere until its all over.
It's been mentioned that Keldorn's line makes it sound like there was
something else said or done between the two of them before he calls her
out, and I'm inclined to agree. I think it's perfectly reasonable to
assume that there's a lot more interplay going on between the characters
than what we actually see in text, and in fact, that's made explicitly
clear at other times, like the Keldorn/Imoen interaction in TOB.
So everyone assumes that Keldorn just goes nuts one day for no reason...I
assume there's been some serious nastiness going on for some time that
he's not willing to stand for anymore.
--
Jason Compton jcom...@xnet.com
Barbarian X
Well the problem is you have to find a DM that's willing to do that ;)
/S
Barbarian X
Ahhh Biggles... all my childhood memories comes back to me... ;)
/S
Barbarian X
"Lotta Roti" <lotta...@kolumbus.fi> wrote in message
news:9m6tg3$37j$1...@news.kolumbus.fi...
Well I have no problem with any Good except Lawful. At least in the way its
portrayed in the game.
Neutral Good is the most common heroic alignment (in Hollywood movies I
think), the lone ranger who really don't want to get involved but has to
(Die Hard movies, all the old Clint Eastwood movies etc).
Chaotic Good is quite cool too.
/S
Geoffrey Brent
> > > Of course, extending this to role-playing creates even more problems.
> How
> > > can you create a rounded, three-dimensional character whilst at the same
> > > time restricting them to racial or class stereotypes?
> >
> > This is why I hate the alignment system.
> >
>
> Was Sturm Brightblade 3d enough?
I cheered when he got spitted on that lance, I did :-)
Geoffrey Brent
Sarah Jaernecke
alt.games.baldurs-gate:
> Well, there's an easy enough solution - ignore the alignment rules.
> It's quite possible to play AD&D without using the alignment
> system; about all you have to do is use common sense to determine
> whether someone is acting as befits a paladin/cleric/etc (which
> you'd have to do anyway), and fudge a few alignment-dependent
> items.
While I've never played pen and paper D&D, I honestly don't think
alignment is a real problem, if you keep a few things in mind. Namely,
that alignment is *objective*, not subjective, and that a person's
actions and beliefs define her or his alignment, NOT the other way
round. 3E has made a step in the right direction by removing the
experience penalties for changing alignments.
I think the system can be an aid for less experienced or "talented"
(bleh, stupid term) roleplayers, as long as players and DM both
know/agree on the definitions of the alignments, the DM doesn't try to
use it as a straightjacket ("You're NG, you can't do that."), or the
players use it as an excuse to get away with idiocy ("I'm CN, so it's
perfectly okay for me to steal from other characters and generally be
a disruptive asshole.").
(Staying away from the main topic because, while I did save Vicky's
sleazy ass *again*, I can't friggin' stand drow and wish they'd all go
play with Demogorgon sooner-than-now.)
--
Sarah J.
Nightfire --==(UDIC)==--
(nightfi...@web.de)
Kookie Jar's quote of the day:
"I walk into the raiders' camp and ask to use the toilet."
- Canonical List of Famous Last Words #1009
Nadazgada
NO!!! lol
I thought he was an OK char. Kinda like a paladin but sometimes he has got
to follow the code even though he feels otherwise.
Like I said, its no wonder that paladins are a miserable lot.
And whats up with him and Kit anyway?
Mark Blunden
> Leo Fellmann wrote:
>
> > Black - I once saw a theory that stated that it's an efficient color
> > for hiding from infravision.
>
> Do you recall any details? Just as black objects are better at absorbing
> heat (in particular, IR) than white ones, so they're also better at
> emitting it.
>
> Other factors being equal, a black-skinned creature in total darkness at
> 37C (or whatever body temperature elves have) would give off more IR
> than a light-skinned ditto. If anything, black skin should be the _worst_
> colour for hiding from a passive-IR system, like infravision (or a modern
> military thermograph system.)
True. That's why black is a very poor choice for desert wear if you're going
to be moving in direct sunlight, but very good if you spend the daylight
hours in shade. In sunlight, the black fabric will absorb the light and
re-radiate it as heat (IR), heating you up, while white would reflect the
sunlight away, but in shade it will absorb and re-radiate your body's heat,
cooling you down, whereas a white material would reflect that heat back onto
your body.
Of course, if there's no heat to radiate, things become different. If the
Drow have somehow acquired the ability to regulate their own body
temperature to match the ambient temperature of their surroundings, they'd
have the perfect thermal camouflage. Their black skin could then be both
part of the regulatory system and part of the camouflage, preventing ambient
heat from being reflected off their skin.
--
Mark.
mar...@bigfoot.com
* Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on
me.
Mark Blunden
Or, indeed, any three-dimensional character in a Biggles book. ;)
--
Mark.
mar...@bigfoot.com
* Don't eat me! I have a wife and kids! Eat them!
Talen
<n...@valid.adress.com> wrote:
>I want my character to have a personality, (Okay, lets face it, all of us,
>when first playing PnP Rpgs, created a 7 foot barbarian with a two handed
>sword named "Orc Killer", but the older I get the more diversety I want).
My first D&D character ever is a half-elf with racism issues,
absolutely no combat skill to speak of, an array of skills and spells
that lie solidly in the realm of social sciences (and he's stranded on
a ship), and a full-body STD that renders him glow-in-the-dark. ;p
<shrugs> But I'll admit, I got to watch Munchkins In Action before I
ever played real PnP RPGs. ;p
--
Talen
Current Tyrannical Despot of the "We Love Talen" fanclub
Several Sandwiches Short of A Picnic,
Clue-Stick Wielder Extraordinaire,
Current August Leader of WAM,
And also known as Grammar Jesus
http://shatteredreality.net/talen/
Aoryuu: How's shit, NH?
NewHaights: Stinky and brown.
NewHaights: Like tomato pesto, but inedible.
The Gurus love you
WAM: 161 BBB: 265
Talen
<rober...@japan.com> wrote:
>
>"Talen" <tal...@spamspamspamspam.optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
>news:rm77ot8b69clfmjbs...@4ax.com...
>> It has been brought to my attention that "Shadrach"
>> <al...@celestus.spam.trap.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >Barbarian X wrote in message <_cMg7.82$S5....@nntpserver.swip.net>...
>> >
>> >>After meeting Solafein (and Drizzt, and Viconia)...
>> >
>> >>How can anyone argue that all drow are evil?
>> >
>> >I recently read R. A. Salvatore's book about Drizzt's childhood, and my
>> >impression was that the Drow are a product of their upbringing. Their
>> >society teaches them to be cruel and so the vast majority of them grow up
>> >that way (Drizzt was 'saved' by his weapons master, who still had a rare
>> >streak of compassion). I don't think that it's fair to brand them as
>> >inherently evil: any child brought up in such an environment will become
>> >extremely unpleasant by the time they reach adulthood.
>>
>> Besides... at last check (and again, I'm wearing underpants of
>> ignorance here), Drow aren't _evil_ in that they overtly attempt to
>> boil small children on a daily basis. In my understanding, they're
>> basically a nation of pricks.
>
>Um, nope, actually they don't specifically boil young children on a daily
>basis. The ritually sacrifice young children, torture young children, and
>butcher young children during coming of age raids on the surface, but no,
>they don't actually boil young children. At least not in any of the books
>or modules I remember.
>
>The idea of an "Evil" race or even an "Evil" god or nation is unrealistic.
>All three exist in D&D, and the Drow are all three in the official game
>based novels and supplements. In your campaign and fan fiction, they can be
>whatever you'd like.
I don't suppose you actually have any links to BG2 Fanfiction, do you?
I'm new to this. ;p
Anyway, my biggest argument against the idea of institutionalised
moral alignment (read: a nation truly evil) is my own life, and how a
supposed institutionalised moral alignment of Lawful Good (it fits
better than anything else, really) will lead to more than a fair share
of rebels. Like myself, who, I believe, on a test, scored Chaotic
Neutral.
>In my (sadly defunct) campaign, all elves considered humans to be short
>lived vermin fit only for an evenings hunt. No human could possibly learn
>to speak the elven languages (though a few mages could read it), and only a
>few elves ever bothered to learn the languages of humanity. It made for
>some interesting changes in the tone of the campaign.
I'd love to try that, but my girlfriend (who has a prediliction to
playing male, gay, effeminate, and disgustingly useless in combat (I
believe her current one has a STR of 3) elves) would gut me. ;p
>> Of course, they have a shithouse god, but do they really have many
>> alternatives in the underdark? 6.6;
>>
>Your clerics can contact their gods while in the underdark. No reason that
>the Drow couldn't worship a god that was not a huge schizophrenic
>spiderthing that enjoyed driving them insane.
Yeah, but by that score, what prevented me from worshipping Satan in
the past? The fact that my neighbours and friends would have kicked
all shit out of me for it, mostly. Lloth has _enough_ of a grip on the
Drow to keep the momentum moving.
Derville
> "Derville" wrote ...
> (Snip)
>
> > I guess that I ought to add here that I really don't like the idea of
Drow
> > being anything other than pure Evil. As I've said above, the whole
> > portrayal of them has been done with (apparently) the express intent of
> > making them appear evil beyond redemption, so to see Drizzt and the
hordes
> > of Drizzt-wannabes popping up left, right and centre just dilutes the
> image,
>
> adventure modules, later reprinted in a single volume as "Queen of the
> Spiders". These pre-dated the Salvatore books by several years. There
were
> good Drow in the modules, living on the fringes of Drow society, despised
> and often killed by the Drow merchant houses. But they were not
> Drizzt-wannabes - this was long before Drizzt had been thought of. The
Drow
> were never supposed to be portrayed as evil beyond redemption as a race.
> They were the products of an evil society, but not irredeemable.
I stand corrected, then. Still, it doesn't stop me disliking Drizzt, he of
the oh-so-annoying righteous tone of voice, and the most limp-wriested
sword-twiddling, just-this-side-of-next-season's-hot-turquoise-colour armour
set of accessories I've seen in a long time. Just to clear things up,
though, how were the 'good' Drow generally treated by other races? My guess
is that they were all tarred with the same brush (how I'd expect most people
to treat them), and wouldn't get a especially fair deal from most other
people.
> > and causes a boatload of unnecessary confusion. Do we ask if Hobgoblins
> > should be treated as though they could be good? Of course not, because
> > Hobgoblins are ugly (ugly = evil), smell (smelly = evil), talk funny
> (dodgy
> > voice = always, always evil) and carry a startling variety of martial
> > accoutrements.
>
> But it is still evil to kill them for no reason.
But the BG games, in nine out of ten encounters, give you no other reason to
kill other than the fact that the enemy have red circles around their feet,
and if you don't kill them, then they will kill you. Someone else out there
in the ether determines that it is your duty to whack these guys (or run
away), or you will face the Game Over screen.
> There are several
> occasions in the BG & IWD games when you encounter Orcs, Ogres, Ogre
Mages,
> Gnolls, etc (I can't specifically remember any Hobgoblins but there
probably
> are) who you are NOT supposed to kill, but to talk to in a reasonable
> fashion.
Most all of whom have the giveaway blue circles round their feet. It's a
no-win situation when trying to analyse a computer game in any real depth,
because at the end of the day, decisions are being taken for you by the game
itself. And of course, game limitations mean that all hobgoblins look the
same on the dark, so we can't say "look, there's Urgg the Good Goblin",
while our favourite Hero of the Realms (tm) Drizzt gets to wear his pwetty
armour and carry his pwetty swords around, so we can easily recognise him.
Again, in real life the average encounter with a Drow would come down to;
1 - see Drow; 2 - draw weapons; 3 - kill Drow; 4 - check for ID.
> OTOH, Drow are pretty, may or may not smell, and carry a
> > startling variety of martial accoutrements. At the end of the day, I
much
> > prefer to have my scenarios done in black and white, with none of this
> "Oh,
> > I want to be good" whingeing, and preferably as little of the "I used to
> be
> > good, but now I have felt the Dark Side" as possible.
>
> I prefer my scenarios in 32-bit colour.
>
> Paul Speaker-to-Customers
My monitor only works in 16-bit, so I see a far more polarised view of the
world ;-). But at the end of the day, the game world operates in either 2
or 4 bit colour (I need 3 colours here): red circles, green circles, and
blue circles. That's all the game gives us to work with, and that's how we
get lead through a lot of the encounters with sprites who we'd normally
garrotte on sight.
--
Phil
Back with Freeserve, so remove 'your.inhibitions' to reply
Derville
> "Derville" <ph...@your.inhibitions.gledson.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
> news:9m3dm2$9um$2...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > Now, if I didn't have the time on my hands to reply to this post, I
might
> > comment on the oddity of trying to invoke Godwin's law in the very first
> > post of a thread ;-).
>
> Now be nice ;)
OK, this is my second post in the thread. Can I invoke it now? Pweeeaasse?
> > But wasn't that disagreement a rather bloody little scuffle, for which
the
> > Drow were in no small part to blame?
>
> I am sure they did. However, I seem to recollect something about the
> elves-to-be-drow thought that the OTHER elves had strayed too far from
their
> true nature. Or am I mixing them up with the drow-wannabies in Elizabeth
> Moon's Paksennarion trilogy?
Pass. I've not read the Paksennarion books, and my AD&D lore isn't all that
hot. I was just taking a wild guess that the race who get painted with the
Evil brush would most likely have had a history of being evil, rather than
just had a poor PR agent.
> > Pop quiz, rookie: (note: for argument's sake, we'll assume that the
group
> > here has had no prior contact with Viconia, so they never sawher in BG1)
> > You're walking down a lane with a slightly unstable Ranger (complete
with
> > Pack-A-Rodent), a psychotic Red Wizard, and an axe-wielding Dwarven
> > Berserker, when you see a group of people trying to burn a Drow.
Knowing
> > that roughly 99.9% of all Drow are evil, and that you are busy trying to
> > find the cash to save a long time friend of yours, would you put your
neck
> > on the line to save someone who would (in all probability) just as soon
> gut
> > you as look at you?
>
> Well put it this way instead:
> I would definitely save her, since I would not let ANYONE die like that.
Anyone? We're talking about a race of people who indulge in killing of
humans, elves, and most anything else that gets in their way. They partake
in the singularly distasteful practices of human sacrifice and torture, and
if the roles were reversed, their action would probably be to hurl a tin of
paraffin on the flames. And on a more practical note, would you stop and
ask anyone what she was accused of, or what she had done, to deserve being
burned? Sadly, I'm now thinking of the witch burning scene in Python and
the Holy Grail, as a result of this train of thought ;-).
> The question would rather be: "Would I allow her to join my party"?
> I think I would say yes to that too. Maybe because I am a guy and she is
> yummy, but more so because if I have accepted Korgan the Mutilator and
Edwin
> the Megalomaniac, and why not accept Viconia the Insecure?
Hehe, fair comment ;-). I do notice that Vic does appear in a startlingly
large number of parties who are otherwise made up of all Good-Neutral
characters, in which case a lot of people have nobody to blame but
themselves when there is a conflict based on alignment clashes. On a
game-related point, she is the best pure Cleric in the game, which may be
another reason to take her on. However, I must point out that I'd never
hire anyone purely on the basis that they're good looking - good looking and
desperate/drunk/blind, yes, but good looking alone is never enough.
> > Heck, we've got a similar thing in Northern
> > Ireland, where people who live next door to one another openly dislike
> each
> > other. If I were forced to compare Drow/Elven hatred to any real life
> > conflict (thorny issue that it is), then I'd rather use examples such as
> > these.
>
> Yes, the nature of the CONFLICT is very much like that, but my point was
the
> REASON of the drow mindset. Brainwashing.
Are they brainwashed? Again, my lack of AD&D knowledge becomes apparent,
but I'm not sure just how much of their attitude is hereditary, and how much
they actually grow into liking their way of life. They are wanting what
they'd see to be a desireable goal (returning to the surface), but since
your average elf is meant to be smarter than the average bear, surely some
few individuals would notice that killing, torturing and worshipping a
pretty evil deity all adds up to a decidedly unsavoury sum total.
> > I guess that I ought to add here that I really don't like the idea of
Drow
> > being anything other than pure Evil. As I've said above, the whole
> > portrayal of them has been done with (apparently) the express intent of
> > making them appear evil beyond redemption, so to see Drizzt and the
hordes
> > of Drizzt-wannabes popping up left, right and centre just dilutes the
> image,
> > and causes a boatload of unnecessary confusion.
>
> But perhaps, storywise, something is happening? The writers might have
> decided that pure Black and White IS boring (which it always is, from my
> point of view. That is why I think Satan is such a much more interesting
> person than God, and that the way Jesus is portraied in that movie
> (Temptation something) is much more believable than the ol' bible way.
Black and White may be boring, but it sure as billy-o makes a game a lot
easier to get on with. After all, the overwhleming majority of BG2 fights
revolve around spotting a hostile sprite (even before we ge tthe confirmatin
of the red circle around his feet) and then automatically letting our
reactions take over, by entering "combat thinking mode".
OTOH, in a different form of media, which can afford to take the time to
flesh out a story and a set of characters, pure black and white isn't an
absolute necessity, and characters can be shown to be more than
two-dimensional cutouts. I just personally like to go with the flow, and if
I've been killing 99% of all hobgoblins I meet, then why should I be
expected to stop and talk to the other one in a thousand hobgoblins who
might actually want a civilised chat with me? The pace of BG2 doesn't
really lend itself to this style of analysing each character's motives in
any depth, and, as I mentioned when replying to the Customermeister, the
game takes away a lot of the issues raised by such encounters by supplying
us with red and blue circles around people's feet, to tell us their motives
in advance.
> >Do we ask if Hobgoblins
> > should be treated as though they could be good? Of course not, because
> > Hobgoblins are ugly (ugly = evil), smell (smelly = evil), talk funny
> (dodgy
> > voice = always, always evil) and carry a startling variety of martial
> > accoutrements.
>
> But maybe we should?
> Afterall, even Frodo asked himself, when caught in that ghastly tower, if
> not the Orcs were much more similar to the other "noble" races than anyone
> had wanted to recognize.
IIRC, there is a mention in LOTR that Orcs were, in fact, made by Morgoth by
breeding captured Elves, nd were designed to be a mockery of the Elven race.
I'm 100% sure such a mention gets made in the Silmarillion, at any rate.
However, to bring this back to BG2, it's worth noting that caputre isn't
really an option - you fight, or you die, in the vast majority of conflicts.
And at the end of the day, the LOTR Orcs were still essentially Evil, it was
only that some had different agendas to others (I'm thinking Gorbag and
Shagrat, who IIRC were the two Orcs chatting in the tower).
> Even a Hobgoblin Grunt must have a sister, a mother or a daughter
> somewhere... Of course I do not argue that if you are attacked by 10
> knobgoblins you should fight them back, but would you execute a wounded
> hobgoblin in cold blood if you fell over him in the forest? I wouldnt.
Depends. If he was wearing Black Talon colours, and you'd just been
fighting Black Talon, then I'd probably whack the guy, because he is part of
the group I deem to be my enemy, and also because he could well inform on me
if he lived to talk to other Black Talon members. On the assumption also
that every man and his dog wants a piece of my Bhaalspawn hide, I'd always
be doubly sure to ensure that as few people as possible are alive to tell
tales of me and my whereabouts. As the Mafia would say, it's nothing
personal, but as a Bhaalspawn with a whole lot of enemies, I'd be thinking
of how much of a risk to me it might be to let this guy live.
> > At the end of the day, I much
> > prefer to have my scenarios done in black and white, with none of this
> "Oh,
> > I want to be good" whingeing, and preferably as little of the "I used to
> be
> > good, but now I have felt the Dark Side" as possible.
>
> Ah, and I am on the other side then ;)
> Darkness IS soo appealing, but if everything is pure black or white, life
> would be SOO dull.
True, but it makes games a lot easier to go through ;-).
> I want my character to have a personality, (Okay, lets face it, all of us,
> when first playing PnP Rpgs, created a 7 foot barbarian with a two handed
> sword named "Orc Killer", but the older I get the more diversety I want).
I
> never play evil, I hate it, but I cannot believe in a all good person. I
> mean i have broken many laws, I have hurt people... Not tortured them to
> death or murdered anyone , but I am definitely not all good.
Yes, but if we come back to AD&D, unless you do the one act to push you over
into another alignment classification, you will still stay as LG, or LN, or
whatever other alignment you may currently hold. AD&D, we have to accept,
is not the best framework for creating believable, multi-dimensional,
fleshed out characters, and I'd rather see the BG2 world accept this and
deal with it, rather than giving us Casper the Friendly Drow at every other
turning.
> All the races in the realms, except for the devils and the demons, (and
> ilithids, have a little someting of both in them. Look at the shark
people,
> who respects you and show you gratitude when you help saving their city
for
> example.
>
> /S
But to save the city, I had to whack a whole group of rebel Sahuagin who
gave me no other choice than to fight them (red circle syndrome, again).
Alignment isn't really the issue here, it's more a straight case of picking
sides, and you find that you are in the position of having to kill off the
rival side before you can progress. And hey, we do all accept that the only
reason the Sahuagin city appears in the game is to let us access the Cloak
of Mirroring, right? ;-)
Bob Tokyo
>
> I don't suppose you actually have any links to BG2 Fanfiction, do you?
> I'm new to this. ;p
I'm afraid not, but I hope some other kind soul might post a few.
> Anyway, my biggest argument against the idea of institutionalised
> moral alignment (read: a nation truly evil) is my own life, and how a
> supposed institutionalised moral alignment of Lawful Good (it fits
> better than anything else, really) will lead to more than a fair share
> of rebels. Like myself, who, I believe, on a test, scored Chaotic
> Neutral.
<Shrugging shoulders> Most people have such mixed personalities that a rigid
interpretation of the D&D alignment system can't be considered realistic.
But this has been discussed to death in a dozen other threads. Just look
for any header containing the name "Keldorn".
> >In my (sadly defunct) campaign, all elves considered humans to be short
> >lived vermin fit only for an evenings hunt. No human could possibly
learn
> >to speak the elven languages (though a few mages could read it), and only
a
> >few elves ever bothered to learn the languages of humanity. It made for
> >some interesting changes in the tone of the campaign.
>
> I'd love to try that, but my girlfriend (who has a prediliction to
> playing male, gay, effeminate, and disgustingly useless in combat (I
> believe her current one has a STR of 3) elves) would gut me. ;p
My wife can't stand the fact that Vampires are filthy, disease spreading
monsters in our campaigns. She prefers the Anne Rice "Happy Sex-Mosquito"
model. I'm more of a traditionalist. ;-)
> >> Of course, they have a shithouse god, but do they really have many
> >> alternatives in the underdark? 6.6;
> >>
> >Your clerics can contact their gods while in the underdark. No reason
that
> >the Drow couldn't worship a god that was not a huge schizophrenic
> >spiderthing that enjoyed driving them insane.
>
> Yeah, but by that score, what prevented me from worshipping Satan in
> the past? The fact that my neighbours and friends would have kicked
> all shit out of me for it, mostly. Lloth has _enough_ of a grip on the
> Drow to keep the momentum moving.
Well that, and the fact that you probably knew the idea of worshiping Satan
was silly. Teenage devil worshipers are mostly trying to piss off their
parents and impress their friends with their kewel rebelliousness. Adult
devil worshipers (an exceedingly rare breed, despite media and born again
Christian myths) are mostly trying to piss of the memory of their parents,
or looking for an excuse to dress up in costumes and engage in some mild
drunken group sex on a Saturday night. None of them take the idea that
their actions will lead to them spending all eternity burning in lakes of
fire seriously; that's part of the idea they're rebelling against (those
that actually bother to give it any thought at all).
But in the Forgotten Realms, Hell is demonstrably real, and can be visited
on package tours. When you can actually call up real demons and chit chat
with them over tea and biscuits, it would logically lead to a thorough
re-evaluation of your life style. The whole "Worship Me And Submit To
Hideous Privations And Tortures In Life, And I Shall Reward You By Allowing
You To Suffer Hideous Privations And Tortures Throughout Eternity" party
line can't be that appealing. I'd expect the members of "Evil" races to be
forming lines in front of temples of Lathander in under a week. At least
until they heard his "Spend Eternity Singing Close Part Harmony About What A
Lovely I Am" plan.
Kish
>
> Speaker-to-Customers <oct...@mcb.net> wrote in message
> news:9m3g5g$ldp$1...@MANNET-3800-2.mcb.net...
> > "Derville" wrote ...
> > (Snip)
> I stand corrected, then. Still, it doesn't stop me disliking Drizzt, he of
> the oh-so-annoying righteous tone of voice, and the most limp-wriested
> sword-twiddling, just-this-side-of-next-season's-hot-turquoise-colour armour
> set of accessories I've seen in a long time.
I'm not fond of him either. Mainly because Salvatore's novels really
/are/ completely black-and-white.
> > > and causes a boatload of unnecessary confusion. Do we ask if Hobgoblins
> > > should be treated as though they could be good? Of course not, because
> > > Hobgoblins are ugly (ugly = evil), smell (smelly = evil), talk funny
> > (dodgy
> > > voice = always, always evil) and carry a startling variety of martial
> > > accoutrements.
> >
> > But it is still evil to kill them for no reason.
>
> But the BG games, in nine out of ten encounters, give you no other reason to
> kill other than the fact that the enemy have red circles around their feet,
> and if you don't kill them, then they will kill you.
"If you don't kill them, they will kill you" is an excellent reason--in
a game or in real life. "Their race is known to be evil" is not (unless
you're playing an evil character, of course).
> > There are several
> > occasions in the BG & IWD games when you encounter Orcs, Ogres, Ogre
> Mages,
> > Gnolls, etc (I can't specifically remember any Hobgoblins but there
> probably
> > are) who you are NOT supposed to kill, but to talk to in a reasonable
> > fashion.
>
> Most all of whom have the giveaway blue circles round their feet.
The way, say, all the assassins in Baldur's Gate 1 do, before they
attack. The red circle means they're attacking you; the blue circle
means they /aren't/ attacking you yet; and killing someone because s/he
attacks you is very different than killing someone because his/her race
is known to be evil.
Leo Fellmann
"Kish" <Kis...@pacbell.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3B870D11...@pacbell.net...
> Leo Fellmann wrote:
> >
> > "Barbarian X" <n...@valid.adress.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > news:Mwnh7.375$S5....@nntpserver.swip.net...
>
> > Sounds like you need to read some Dragonlance.
>
> Whyso? I've read a fair amount of Dragonlance, but I can't place the
> quality you're referring to in it.
Uncertain good/evil boundarys? See, for example, the Knights of Neraka or
whatever they're called now.
Or Raistlin, or even better, Dalamar. Priest-king of Istar anyone?
Leo Fellmann
"Mark Blunden" <mar...@bigfoot.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:9m7rq9$nj7i$1...@ID-36588.news.dfncis.de...
> Of course, if there's no heat to radiate, things become different. If the
> Drow have somehow acquired the ability to regulate their own body
> temperature to match the ambient temperature of their surroundings, they'd
> have the perfect thermal camouflage. Their black skin could then be both
> part of the regulatory system and part of the camouflage, preventing
ambient
> heat from being reflected off their skin.
I think that's it. I'll dig the theory up, I have it on a text file..
somewhere, on some CD..
Leo Fellmann
"Nadazgada" <hari...@ntlworld.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:U3Kh7.5425$_71.6...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>
> Geoffrey Brent <g.b...@student.unsw.edu.NOS.PAM.au> wrote in message
> news:3B874CE0...@student.unsw.edu.NOS.PAM.au...
> > Nadazgada wrote:
> >
> >
> > > > > Of course, extending this to role-playing creates even more
> problems.
> > > How
> > > > > can you create a rounded, three-dimensional character whilst at
the
> same
> > > > > time restricting them to racial or class stereotypes?
> > > >
> > > > This is why I hate the alignment system.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Was Sturm Brightblade 3d enough?
> >
> > I cheered when he got spitted on that lance, I did :-)
> >
>
> NO!!! lol
> I thought he was an OK char. Kinda like a paladin but sometimes he has got
> to follow the code even though he feels otherwise.
>
> Like I said, its no wonder that paladins are a miserable lot.
>
> And whats up with him and Kit anyway?
Er, nothing? IIRC she just killed 'im.
Leo Fellmann
"Geoffrey Brent" <g.b...@student.unsw.edu.NOS.PAM.au> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:3B874CE0...@student.unsw.edu.NOS.PAM.au...
Hey! He was quite a well-thought out character.
The Scribe
Tanis Half-Elvin was the one I most wanted to see spitted on the end of
a lance. Laurana was a close second, and I like elves (which is why I
tend to play a character with elvin blood I guess).
--
邢 唷��
Talen
<rober...@japan.com> wrote:
>
>"Talen" <tal...@spamspamspamspam.optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
>news:lgidotom4h6f6466g...@4ax.com...
>> It has been brought to my attention that "Bob Tokyo"
>> <rober...@japan.com> wrote:
>>
>> Anyway, my biggest argument against the idea of institutionalised
>> moral alignment (read: a nation truly evil) is my own life, and how a
>> supposed institutionalised moral alignment of Lawful Good (it fits
>> better than anything else, really) will lead to more than a fair share
>> of rebels. Like myself, who, I believe, on a test, scored Chaotic
>> Neutral.
>
><Shrugging shoulders> Most people have such mixed personalities that a rigid
>interpretation of the D&D alignment system can't be considered realistic.
>But this has been discussed to death in a dozen other threads. Just look
>for any header containing the name "Keldorn".
Precisely. In my opinion, a healthy section of people in this world
are either true neutral or lawful neutral - they simply don't feel
very strongly in _any_ direction and follow the laws because they
don't want to be punished.
>> >In my (sadly defunct) campaign, all elves considered humans to be short
>> >lived vermin fit only for an evenings hunt. No human could possibly
>learn
>> >to speak the elven languages (though a few mages could read it), and only
>a
>> >few elves ever bothered to learn the languages of humanity. It made for
>> >some interesting changes in the tone of the campaign.
>>
>> I'd love to try that, but my girlfriend (who has a prediliction to
>> playing male, gay, effeminate, and disgustingly useless in combat (I
>> believe her current one has a STR of 3) elves) would gut me. ;p
>
>My wife can't stand the fact that Vampires are filthy, disease spreading
>monsters in our campaigns. She prefers the Anne Rice "Happy Sex-Mosquito"
>model. I'm more of a traditionalist. ;-)
<laughs> I think it'd be cooler to play one of the filthy,
disease-ridden monsters trying to redeem himself than your Sex
Mosquito. At least that way he's got an uphill battle, not being
young, beautiful, and rich.
>> >> Of course, they have a shithouse god, but do they really have many
>> >> alternatives in the underdark? 6.6;
>> >>
>> >Your clerics can contact their gods while in the underdark. No reason
>that
>> >the Drow couldn't worship a god that was not a huge schizophrenic
>> >spiderthing that enjoyed driving them insane.
>>
>> Yeah, but by that score, what prevented me from worshipping Satan in
>> the past? The fact that my neighbours and friends would have kicked
>> all shit out of me for it, mostly. Lloth has _enough_ of a grip on the
>> Drow to keep the momentum moving.
>
>Well that, and the fact that you probably knew the idea of worshiping Satan
>was silly.
For the most part, yes - but if I'd wanted to worship Satan, I could
have done it _properly_.
There is nobody best equipped to serve Satan than those who've been
raised to serve God, I find. We get told faaar too much about what
Satan can do. ;p
> Teenage devil worshipers are mostly trying to piss off their
>parents and impress their friends with their kewel rebelliousness.
<laughs> Not exactly a fitting description of myself. ;p
>Adult
>devil worshipers (an exceedingly rare breed, despite media and born again
>Christian myths) are mostly trying to piss of the memory of their parents,
>or looking for an excuse to dress up in costumes and engage in some mild
>drunken group sex on a Saturday night. None of them take the idea that
>their actions will lead to them spending all eternity burning in lakes of
>fire seriously; that's part of the idea they're rebelling against (those
>that actually bother to give it any thought at all).
>But in the Forgotten Realms, Hell is demonstrably real, and can be visited
>on package tours. When you can actually call up real demons and chit chat
>with them over tea and biscuits, it would logically lead to a thorough
>re-evaluation of your life style. The whole "Worship Me And Submit To
>Hideous Privations And Tortures In Life, And I Shall Reward You By Allowing
>You To Suffer Hideous Privations And Tortures Throughout Eternity" party
>line can't be that appealing. I'd expect the members of "Evil" races to be
>forming lines in front of temples of Lathander in under a week. At least
>until they heard his "Spend Eternity Singing Close Part Harmony About What A
>Lovely I Am" plan.
It's mostly a personal thing - an evil character can be just evil
simply out of self-interest. If I were to leave a child to die at the
hands of a demon then run like hell myself, that would be an evil act
- but I hardly killed the child myself, I just would be too scared of
the demon to act.
By the same score, trying to stop said demon and getting killed would
be a good - but consumately stupid - act.
--
Talen
Current Tyrannical Despot of the "We Love Talen" fanclub
Several Sandwiches Short of A Picnic,
Clue-Stick Wielder Extraordinaire,
Current August Leader of WAM,
And also known as Grammar Jesus
http://shatteredreality.net/talen/
"People fail to realize that DBZ isn't just in a totally
different league than pretty much all other fiction, but
actually in a different game altogether."
- Jim Stanfield
Nadazgada
Leo Fellmann <l.fel...@free.fr> wrote in message
news:9WSh7.2137$pA7.2...@nnrp6.proxad.net...
Apparently in one of the later books it was revealed that Sturm had a kid
with Kit. Talk about mesed up family. Anyone can confirm on this?
Nadazgada
The Scribe <iNgOiS...@hoMme.com> wrote in message
news:3B882FEE...@hoMme.com...
> Leo Fellmann wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > > Was Sturm Brightblade 3d enough?
> > >
> > > I cheered when he got spitted on that lance, I did :-)
> >
> > Hey! He was quite a well-thought out character.
>
> Tanis Half-Elvin was the one I most wanted to see spitted on the end of
> a lance. Laurana was a close second, and I like elves (which is why I
> tend to play a character with elvin blood I guess).
I havent read those in ages. But from what I remembered, most of them have a
dilemma or sorts within them. Which what made them interesting to me.
Personal opinion though.
--
Nadazgada
Needs to read Dragonlance again.
Kish
>
> Leo Fellmann <l.fel...@free.fr> wrote in message
> news:9WSh7.2137$pA7.2...@nnrp6.proxad.net...
> >
> > "Nadazgada" <hari...@ntlworld.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > news:U3Kh7.5425$_71.6...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > > And whats up with [Sturm Brightblade] and Kit anyway?
> >
> > Er, nothing? IIRC she just killed 'im.
> >
>
> Apparently in one of the later books it was revealed that Sturm had a kid
> with Kit. Talk about mesed up family. Anyone can confirm on this?
Spoilers for Dragons of Summer Flame.
Yes. She seduced him in order to make him violate his beliefs, to show
him how much contempt she held those beliefs in.
Nadazgada
Kish <Kis...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3B888A16...@pacbell.net...
Thanks, thst cleared up a few things.
--
Nadazgada
Mark Blunden
> It's mostly a personal thing - an evil character can be just evil
> simply out of self-interest. If I were to leave a child to die at the
> hands of a demon then run like hell myself, that would be an evil act
> - but I hardly killed the child myself, I just would be too scared of
> the demon to act.
>
> By the same score, trying to stop said demon and getting killed would
> be a good - but consumately stupid - act.
I don't think that's evil. I think failing to try and save someone from a
foe you know you can't defeat would be no worse than neutral. Failing to
save someone from a foe you're pretty sure you *can* defeat would be evil.
--
Mark.
mar...@bigfoot.com
* There are scenes in this story which may not be suitable for adults
Barbarian X
> It has been brought to my attention that "Barbarian X"
> <n...@valid.adress.com> wrote:
>
> >I want my character to have a personality, (Okay, lets face it, all of
us,
> >when first playing PnP Rpgs, created a 7 foot barbarian with a two handed
> >sword named "Orc Killer", but the older I get the more diversety I want).
>
> My first D&D character ever is a half-elf with racism issues,
> absolutely no combat skill to speak of, an array of skills and spells
> that lie solidly in the realm of social sciences (and he's stranded on
> a ship), and a full-body STD that renders him glow-in-the-dark. ;p
>
> <shrugs> But I'll admit, I got to watch Munchkins In Action before I
> ever played real PnP RPGs. ;p
Ah, but I started playing PnP RPGs at the age of 13...
/S
Barbarian X
"Derville" <ph...@your.inhibitions.gledson.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9m848p$vse$3...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Barbarian X <n...@valid.adress.com> wrote in message
> news:Mwnh7.375$S5....@nntpserver.swip.net...
> > "Derville" <ph...@your.inhibitions.gledson.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i
meddelandet
> > news:9m3dm2$9um$2...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > >
> > > Now, if I didn't have the time on my hands to reply to this post, I
> might
> > > comment on the oddity of trying to invoke Godwin's law in the very
first
> > > post of a thread ;-).
> >
> > Now be nice ;)
>
> OK, this is my second post in the thread. Can I invoke it now?
Pweeeaasse?
*LOL* Okay okay... Just because you said the magic word :)
> > I am sure they did. However, I seem to recollect something about the
> > elves-to-be-drow thought that the OTHER elves had strayed too far from
> their
> > true nature. Or am I mixing them up with the drow-wannabies in Elizabeth
> > Moon's Paksennarion trilogy?
>
> Pass. I've not read the Paksennarion books, and my AD&D lore isn't all
that
> hot. I was just taking a wild guess that the race who get painted with
the
> Evil brush would most likely have had a history of being evil, rather than
> just had a poor PR agent.
I think you SHOULD read the Paks books.
Appart from that, I agree with you. The problem is that if you are a good
(as in Good) character, you shouldn't be able to slaughter them without
reason. The Azteks were very... special in the way they treated other
civilizations (sp?) but it didn't make it right what the spanish did.
> > Well put it this way instead:
> > I would definitely save her, since I would not let ANYONE die like that.
>
> Anyone? We're talking about a race of people who indulge in killing of
> humans, elves, and most anything else that gets in their way.
YES anyone. If only to not be as low as they.
>They partake
> in the singularly distasteful practices of human sacrifice and torture,
and
> if the roles were reversed, their action would probably be to hurl a tin
of
> paraffin on the flames.
I am sure it would. But as I have said before... It. Does. Not. Make. It.
Right. For. You. To. Do. It.
>And on a more practical note, would you stop and
> ask anyone what she was accused of, or what she had done, to deserve being
> burned? Sadly, I'm now thinking of the witch burning scene in Python and
> the Holy Grail, as a result of this train of thought ;-).
Ignorant witchhunters deserves a spanking.
> > The question would rather be: "Would I allow her to join my party"?
> > I think I would say yes to that too. Maybe because I am a guy and she is
> > yummy, but more so because if I have accepted Korgan the Mutilator and
> Edwin
> > the Megalomaniac, and why not accept Viconia the Insecure?
>
> Hehe, fair comment ;-). I do notice that Vic does appear in a startlingly
> large number of parties who are otherwise made up of all Good-Neutral
> characters, in which case a lot of people have nobody to blame but
> themselves when there is a conflict based on alignment clashes.
I usually play it that way; afterall, I had her in BG1 too, so my PC knows
and trusts her already.
>On a
> game-related point, she is the best pure Cleric in the game, which may be
> another reason to take her on. However, I must point out that I'd never
> hire anyone purely on the basis that they're good looking - good looking
and
> desperate/drunk/blind, yes, but good looking alone is never enough.
*L* No... It's like men marrying bimbos... I am sure they are nice and all
that but to spend the life with one? The Horror!
>
> > > Heck, we've got a similar thing in Northern
> > > Ireland, where people who live next door to one another openly dislike
> > each
> > > other. If I were forced to compare Drow/Elven hatred to any real life
> > > conflict (thorny issue that it is), then I'd rather use examples such
as
> > > these.
> >
> > Yes, the nature of the CONFLICT is very much like that, but my point was
> the
> > REASON of the drow mindset. Brainwashing.
>
> Are they brainwashed? Again, my lack of AD&D knowledge becomes apparent,
> but I'm not sure just how much of their attitude is hereditary, and how
much
> they actually grow into liking their way of life. They are wanting what
> they'd see to be a desireable goal (returning to the surface), but since
> your average elf is meant to be smarter than the average bear, surely some
> few individuals would notice that killing, torturing and worshipping a
> pretty evil deity all adds up to a decidedly unsavoury sum total.
Remember what I said about Hitlerjürgend... If you start brainwashing at a
young enough age (and in a dRow society the brainwashing would start from
Birth, and not wait until the year 5 or so) you can accomplish anything.
Unfortunately.
> > But perhaps, storywise, something is happening? The writers might have
> > decided that pure Black and White IS boring (which it always is, from my
> > point of view. That is why I think Satan is such a much more interesting
> > person than God, and that the way Jesus is portraied in that movie
> > (Temptation something) is much more believable than the ol' bible way.
>
> Black and White may be boring, but it sure as billy-o makes a game a lot
> easier to get on with. After all, the overwhleming majority of BG2 fights
> revolve around spotting a hostile sprite (even before we ge tthe
confirmatin
> of the red circle around his feet) and then automatically letting our
> reactions take over, by entering "combat thinking mode".
I think that is one of the differences between us ;)
I pretend I play a "real" rpg, which also means that I can close the doors
between me and a badass monster because I "pretend" that my 6 characters
actually pushes the door closed and keeps pushing it to stop the monster
from getting thru. etc etc.
>
> OTOH, in a different form of media, which can afford to take the time to
> flesh out a story and a set of characters, pure black and white isn't an
> absolute necessity, and characters can be shown to be more than
> two-dimensional cutouts. I just personally like to go with the flow, and
if
> I've been killing 99% of all hobgoblins I meet, then why should I be
> expected to stop and talk to the other one in a thousand hobgoblins who
> might actually want a civilised chat with me? The pace of BG2 doesn't
> really lend itself to this style of analysing each character's motives in
> any depth, and, as I mentioned when replying to the Customermeister, the
> game takes away a lot of the issues raised by such encounters by supplying
> us with red and blue circles around people's feet, to tell us their
motives
> in advance.
See above :)
> > But maybe we should?
> > Afterall, even Frodo asked himself, when caught in that ghastly tower,
if
> > not the Orcs were much more similar to the other "noble" races than
anyone
> > had wanted to recognize.
>
> IIRC, there is a mention in LOTR that Orcs were, in fact, made by Morgoth
by
> breeding captured Elves, nd were designed to be a mockery of the Elven
race.
> I'm 100% sure such a mention gets made in the Silmarillion, at any rate.
> However, to bring this back to BG2, it's worth noting that caputre isn't
> really an option - you fight, or you die, in the vast majority of
conflicts.
> And at the end of the day, the LOTR Orcs were still essentially Evil, it
was
> only that some had different agendas to others (I'm thinking Gorbag and
> Shagrat, who IIRC were the two Orcs chatting in the tower).
Yes it was they. But I again say "see above"... I pretend more than the
engine is capable of. And apart from that, of course I fight back an attack.
> > Even a Hobgoblin Grunt must have a sister, a mother or a daughter
> > somewhere... Of course I do not argue that if you are attacked by 10
> > knobgoblins you should fight them back, but would you execute a wounded
> > hobgoblin in cold blood if you fell over him in the forest? I wouldnt.
>
> Depends. If he was wearing Black Talon colours, and you'd just been
> fighting Black Talon, then I'd probably whack the guy, because he is part
of
> the group I deem to be my enemy, and also because he could well inform on
me
> if he lived to talk to other Black Talon members.
You do know that that is against the "laws of war"? ;)
A wounded enemy should be taken care of in the Nice meaning ;)
Actually when I did my military service a leutenant got a long lecture from
a major since he had told us he would put a bullet in the head of every damn
enemy he found bleeding in the forrest.
It's as "illegal" to do that as to use chemical weapons, you know...
> True, but it makes games a lot easier to go through ;-).
Who wants it easy? ;)
/S
BabyBrain
news:9m7icd$id7$1...@yggdrasil.utfors.se...
I really cant play as anything other than Neutral or Chaotic Good.
I find evil characters strangely fascinating but I just cant feel
comfortable playing as one. And I just cant understand how its possible to
be 'True Neutral' unless you just sit at home all day refusing to have
anything to do with the world outside, which is a living that doesnt really
lend itself to the life of an adventurer. I hate the idea of being anything
Lawful, and I cant be Chaotic Neutral because I just dont play insane
characters. Which as has just being pointed out by certain parties is a
fine example of how I use my PCs to live out all the things its simply not
possible for me to be in real life.
Leo Fellmann
"The Scribe" <iNgOiS...@hoMme.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3B882FEE...@hoMme.com...
I would have offed whatsisname, the barbarian. He was an annoying sod.
BabyBrain
Jason Compton <jcom...@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote in message
news:9m75nm$pcs$1...@flood.xnet.com...
>
> It's been mentioned that Keldorn's line makes it sound like there was
> something else said or done between the two of them before he calls her
> out, and I'm inclined to agree. I think it's perfectly reasonable to
> assume that there's a lot more interplay going on between the characters
> than what we actually see in text, and in fact, that's made explicitly
> clear at other times, like the Keldorn/Imoen interaction in TOB.
>
> So everyone assumes that Keldorn just goes nuts one day for no reason...I
> assume there's been some serious nastiness going on for some time that
> he's not willing to stand for anymore.
Its a very reasonable assumption, more often than not it seems like we're
just listening in to the end of an NPC conversation so I guess each player
will have in the blanks on their own. And given Vic's general disposition
its very likely that she's said and done a lot off screen to aggravate
Keldorn to the point that he breaks and attempts to insert his shield down
her throat.
Funseeker
life.
Just a quick one;
You play through the 1, seeing how she approached your group in the first
place?
(It'd probably just reinforce your instincts, but, from the character's
point of view...knowing what she was and where she came from, what she'd
been accused of...would he?possibly she?
Tiny side comment; the male would probably be more inclined to accept her.
<BEG>
--
Still going strong...Accept no replicas!
funseeker