Fractal Newsgroup Problem
Stig Pettersson
the only thing I can say is that the result achieved is beyond
what anyone could ever have expected.
One thing that surprises me a little is the high quality of the art performed.
I don´t say this because I am part of the group, but more because it fascinates me.
I thought of it first when I had been away for some days and then returned.
One can see it more clearly then.
But, the quality is not the most important thing.
The natural dynamic in the group is much more important.
And this is beyond comprehension.
There is however one problem. And this is related to the name of the group.
The word binaries is not included in the name of the group.
And this have caused problems. Some servers, or maybe I should say many servers,
do not accept binary postings to a group without binary in the name of the group.
This have had the effect that people that wants to post here cannot do it
- this includes both "old" members and newcomers.
This is of course not a very good situation.
And we have to live with it - or do something about it.
Jo and I have discussed this and the only acceptable solution that we could find
was to start an entirely new newsgroup.
A newsgroup that would include binary in the name.
After thinking a little more about it we also thought that
one could take a little longer step this time.
The idea would be to create a binary newsgroup,
not only related to fractal pictures but to fractal art as a total.
It would include pictures, sounds, music, movies, animations - just name it.
All of course related to fractal art but with possibilities to cross the borders sometimes.
As, for example, combining fractal pictures or music with poetry.
A suggestion for a name to the group could be alt.binaries.fractal.art
but this is only a suggestion.
If you have another name that you think would fit in then you are more than welcome to present it.
We have got green light from Newsfeed, that more than well understands our problems,
but there are still a long way to go. Many other servers must be contacted and there
are probably many problems to solve on the way. But I see it as at least a good start.
To summarise: Because of that the word bianaries is missing in the word
alt.fractals.pictures many servers don´t accept binary posts (or pictures) to this group.
That has the effect that many people that wants to post here cannot do it.
One way out of this situation could be to open up a new newsgroup with a proper name.
This newsgroup could be dedicated to - not only fractal pictures
but fractal art as a totality. I think that would be right in time
as the interest for fractal art has dramatically increased the last years
and fractal art is more and more accepted as a pure form of art.
As there are some persons that seems to have a problem with the connection
between afp and abpf this could also hopefully help to clean up the situation a bit.
This is just a suggestion - nothing else. But before we put some more effort in this
it could be a good idea to know how the response to this idea is.
If it is negative - well then nothing will happen. If it is positive then we can start
to work on it. It is also important to know two things.
This may take some time to accomplish. And it can fail.
But if it would work out good then everything will be as before
with the difference that the group will (hopefully) be easier to access
and with a little larger fractal perspective.
It is okay to answer directly to this group (afp). We are not bound by paragraphs.
It is of course okay to answer to Jo or me or ... well, I guess anyone in the group too.
But it could be fun to keep it open. And we are curious about what you think about
the idea and the name (of course)
and if you have some other suggestion about the name or anything else.
So please write. :-)
Stig
Terry Wright
"As there are some persons that seems to have a problem with the connection
between afp and abpf this could also hopefully help to clean up the situation
a bit."
~~~~~
Stig,
Your goal to establish another binary newsgroup to display fractal art and
allow more artists access to posting is a worthy venture. I wish you complete
success.
However, I fail to see how establishing a new binaries group will ease the
problems of cross-posting text messages from afp or a new binaries fractal
group back to abpf. This cross-posting comes about from a lack of civility --
not a lack of access. Artists on the new fractals binaries group who cannot
or will not configure their newsreaders properly will still be ignoring
netiquette. Changing the location of the community will do little good toward
resolving this problem if the attitudes and behaviors of some of the members
do not change, too.
Or are you implying that with a new fractals binaries group in place that
there will be no need for artists to post in abpf at all? This suggestion was
made by Joseph Trotsky when afp was first reconstituted, and I have noticed
that a number of afp artists have completely stopped posting to abpf. What
has not stopped, of course, are the ill-mannered cross-posts of discussion.
Finally, since you say "we are curious about what you think about the idea," I
do have another passing concern. Before I would place my original art in a
public forum spearheaded and managed (in part, anyway) by Joseph Trotsky, I
think I'd ask around a bit and do a little homework. I might explore the fact
that many artists have bailed from his FAME site because they questioned his
respect for their intellectual property rights, his tweaking of their images
without permission, and his reluctance to remove images from FAME and his
server when requested. I might be cautious about sending him private
correspondence since he has been known to make private messages public -- and
to selectively edit the text to make himself look good and misrepresent the
authors' views. I might investigate the background of the events that led to
him being banned from the UltraFractal discussion list. I think the phrase
"buyer beware" might be relevant here. Yes, the prospect for a new newsgroup
is exciting, as long as all potential ulterior motives get fully aired.
I am sorry if I appear blunt, but facts are facts. If you bother to check,
you will find considerable support for what I have said. I have known some of
the artists here in afp a long time. I admire their work and respect them as
people. I would hate to see them get involved in a situation where their art
could easily be abused and their feelings deeply hurt.
But I'm talking to a hostile crowd here, and I doubt any of you will hear my
words -- or, if you do, you will probably call me a fascist and righteously
lash out as Doug Owen has. It's amazing to see how indignant people can
become defending their right to be rude. I have no intention of responding to
his message. Instead, I'd prefer everyone take his advice and "read [my]
original post carefully, very carefully."
Oh, I suppose the cross-postings will continue, too. Frankly, I always
suspected as much. And, in the end, someone will inherit the Earth, but it
won't be "the meek."
Thanks again for your time.
Terry
~/~
Terry Wright
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ROOMS WITH A VIEW
http://www.eclectasy.com/ cruelanimal/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stig Pettersson
letter I can easily understand that. I must confess that I have no clue how you are thinking
here about crossposting (or at least very little clue). But that does not make me hostile.
Maybe a little tired (and, okay then, irritated). A little. It disappears rather soon.
But hostile - no.
I was about to answer your post with a rather, ahum, well - maybe not the most christmas-
inspired letter when I saw Doug´s letter. So I changed my mind. Don´t see any reason to hit
a man that is already lying down.
And I am not intending to solve any crosspost-problem or repost-problem because I simply
don´t see any of them here. Actually I am rather thankful to you, at least in one way, because in
some hours I had to learn more about usenet then in one year (ok - eleven months ;). Still I
don´t get it. But I have much more to learn.
And Terry - I don´t see any schism or problems what so ever between abpf and afp.
Maybe if you see a person as a newsgroup. But I am rather convinced that most people
on both groups wonder what the fuzz is all about.
Maybe you have noticed that there are a lot of reposts on afp from abpf without any source at all?
I mean talking about bad netiquette? I think it is about time that afp is treated with a little more respect.
It is after all a newsgroup. Or? But did you see anyone complain until now? Don´t think so.
And Terry. We have new stars in the group now. I don´t want them to be frightened or feel any guilt
because they are doing exactly as the manual tells them to. What is wrong with you man? Are your
girlfriend gone? Are you quitting smoking? Or what?
And about Jo. I like him. And I never let any enviroment decide my choice of friends. That would be the
same as losing my soul. I really don´t know what has been going on. Did he murder anyone? Drop an
atombomb somewhere? I don´t really know if he did anything but if so - well I have never seen anyone
getting better if people turns their back at him or her. Whatever Jo could have done he cannot have
done something more worse than turning his back at someone. If he now has done anything.
And right now I am not interesting in the passed but more in the future.
And about private mail. Well if he exposed mine it would really be a catastroph for me. Specially as I talk a lot
of shit and sick things about people and things that I happens to be irritated at. But it is just to put some steam
out, a sort of brainstorm. And my friends knows this so they normally just laugh about it. So I guess that then
some people would get a good laugh and the others... well they have their backs.
And I know that Jo would never change any of my pictures without my permission, not without a very
good reason for it.
But of course - I may be wrong. I don´t belong to the sofisticated people that always are right and never do
anything wrong. But in that case it is my own fault. (Who´s else´s?)
And about Paul I can assure you that both Ingvar and I have the highest respect for him, his art and his devotion
to abpf. I guess that goes for most of us. Ok - there have been times that I have been rather irritated at him
(as I am right now - at - guess who?) but so what. We have different oppinions of some things but
probably the same oppinion about the most things. (And he has made the most cool 3d-landscape I have ever
seen ;)
And about people that has disappeared from abpf I don´t think Jo has something to do with that. For
example I wanted to crosspost at first. But it simply did not work of technical reasons. Then I realised
what would happen when other people would answer and I answer them and so forth. And I am one of the most
absentminded persons in this world. So I simply did not want to put gasoline on the fire. But if Paul started
to encourage a little more communication and crosspostings then I think there would be a lot more people that
posted to abpf (and to afp too).
Now seriously. I can see the situation a little from your eyes. But Terry - it simply cannot work.
There is no meaning to fight a natural flow. It is much better to go with it.
At least this is my oppinion.
cu
Stig
Stig Pettersson
I like communication. And as far as I can see - so does Jo. No problems.
Talk more - no war.
Communication about the art and around it. It is one of the main ideas with such a group.
I am no expert at newsgroups but I guess they are basically for the persons that makes the art
and not only for the pictures. I mean - it is not a gallery.
Even if one only say "Nice picture" it can mean quite a lot to the artist.
Because of the lack of the magic word binaries we have lost great goldmines.
If the choice is between longer time for the pictures on the server or these
persons, well, the choice is of course easy. So I am afraid it must be binaries.
I will maybe get a cable later on and then ... who knows what will happen.
You seem to know more than I do about these things so I hope we will
talk a little more in the future. :-)
cu
Stig
Doug Owen <> wrote:
>Wonderful idea as long as we can talk to each other and not be
>dictated to through subjective perceptions of intent.
>
>The only problem will be proliferating the group to a multitude of
>major servers, but that should not take more than a month to six weeks
>with everyone's cooperation of regular posts and requests for servers
>to carry it.
>
>The inclusion of binary in the name can be an onus as well as a boon
>since many Usenet server sysops automatically limit the amount of time
>binaries stay on the system, or the amount of space allocated,
>regardless of the type of post. Binaries are usually limited as a
>group without regard to type.
>
>Maybe just alt.fractals.art. I make that suggestion because files for
>a.p.f stay on my server longer than a.b.p.f, and has on other servers
>I've used. The reason being that they are not in the binary
>sub-hierarchy. Since that would not solve the problem of the servers
>that don't accept binaries to non-binary groups, another possibility
>would be to bump up to the multi-media groups. Since they are the new
>kids on the block, sysops seem to be a bit more tolerant of the huge
>files and the length of retention.
>
>Whatever, the decision, the key is member support and convincing
>server sysops as to content and the volume of traffic when requesting
>that they carry the newsgroup.
>Another point is that although a.p.f would once again be abandoned, it
>will not be discontinued and available for future use. Undoubtedly it
>would be, and there is no reason to suggest that it could not still be
>used.
>
>No need to reply, just my vote of support and my $0.02, FWIW
>
>Doug
>
>
>
>On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 02:58:42 GMT, Stig Pettersson <d...@telia.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>><<<SNIP>>> the only acceptable solution that we could find
Joseph Trotsky
First I wish to SALUTE you Doug for your brave and very well taken analysis of the situation,
the history, the web status, and the personalities involved. It was very enlighting.
(btw, are you a psychiatrist? your analysis looks a pro work)
Yes, it is time to stand on our rights, and stop being the garbage backyard for all cross postings
of texts sent to the afp from the abfp, which is obviously done intentionally, using our home with
no respect, taking our bandwidth and then crying wolf.
And as Doug has said, there is no need to be afraid any more - don't let anyone dictate your life
nor your art, nor your freedom of commenting:-)
* * * *
I am very glad Doug, that you accept our general idea. It is time to have an open minded group,
which will deal with art and fractal and music and beauty and not be a board for cruel animals.
As for letting off the "binaries" word from the name: I have read your reasons and you are right
of course with your logic. But there is a rule which I have bound to take by my profession, and it is:
"a calculated risk". Every therapy has to be considered of its "pro" actions and then to its "con"
side-effects. Many a time a medicine is taken though it might in some other way harm the patient.
The point is that many ISP will not allow posting of binary files to a non binary newsgroup.
This is the reason that some of us have to use free servers to do the job. Stig has faced some of
these problems, and so am I. So though right that the half life time on a non binaric board is longer,
it will have no advantage if we can't post to it at all.
Again thanks for your pro vote.
Jo:)
>><<<SNIP>>> the only acceptable solution that we could find
Marion
Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful! ! !
I am all in favor of a new newsgroup which would encompass ALL
of fractal art. As far as the name is concerned, I have no particular
preferences. Any name, like the one you suggested, is fine. I just hope
and pray that it can happen.
Frankly, I am tired of NettieQuit and others tearing into any of us who
accidently crosspost a reply. And there seems to be no way to defend
ourselves as some people have already made up their minds that we
do this intentionally, which is a crock of baloney. It is so easy to make
a mistake in posting replies. I have made a special effort to check and see
if the image or remark has been crossposted and if it has, I simply post my
reply as a 'new message'.
Go for it Stig. You have my support 100%.
Marion
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ross
...... <snip>
>The inclusion of binary in the name can be an onus as well as a boon
>since many Usenet server sysops automatically limit the amount of time
>binaries stay on the system, or the amount of space allocated,
>regardless of the type of post. Binaries are usually limited as a
>group without regard to type.
Absolutely - all the ISPs in my part of the world do this. They put
blanket expiry times on binary groups that are typically quite short
- eg, 2 days for binary groups vs several weeks for non-binary. Small
ISPs sometimes expire binary posts after less than a day. Some have
been known to have silly formulae based on time of day which can
result in posts disappearing within hours if they come at the wrong
time. Some surreptitiously remove all larger postings from their feed
and blame it on upstream providers. There seems to be no limit to
what they will not do to a "binary" newsgroup. On the other hand, they
will sometimes retain non-binary posts in small volume groups for very
long times. Around here, it's a major drawback to have "binary" in the
name (provided the ISP carries the group at all - which is another
issue).
--------------
Every direction we look, compromise is necessary. We could develop a
matrix of pros and cons for some of the possible arrangements - eg:
=============== If some of the problems are:
P1. Wide diversity in opinion as to how NGs should function.
P2. Differing policies in ISPs all over the world regarding what they
will receive in the first place, and for how long they retain what
they receive.
P3. Some ISPs filter out binaries if group is named as non-binary.
P4. Some ISPs expire posts extremely quickly if group *is* named as
binary.
P5. Some ISPs put other forms of limits on binary groups such as
header quotas.
P6. Creating new fractal NGs
a) increases the complexity of retrieving all the posts.
b) reduces the size of the community on each group, which may
reduce traffic to the point where an ISP will not carry it
on the grounds that it is not of interest to enough people,
c) may affect viability by reducing the number of interactive
users below the "critical mass" for a healthy group.
d) may create a major problem in post availability, due to
a large proportion of servers not taking the new group.
P7. Duplicate posting wastes bandwidth.
=============== And some possible 'solutions' are:
S1. Everyone go back to ABPF.
S2. Make rigid demarcation between ABPF (for images) & APF
(unrestricted). This would require that all comments on images
in ABPF be sent to APF, and images where comments are desired/
expected should be sent to APF in the first place.
S3. Use ABPF for images and allow 'substantive' comments (not just
expression of simple approval) on some NG; APF unrestricted
images and comments.
S4. Create new group ABF with "binary" in title; use APBF for images
only; post duplicate images to both ABF & APF when comments are
expected/desired.
=============== Then if we look at how well a particular 'solution'
solves each problem, we might get a matrix of outcomes like this
(where + is good, - is bad). You'll need a fixed pitch font to view
the table properly.
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7
S1 --- --- + - -- + !!
S2 + - - + + - !!
S3 ++ - - + + - !!
S4 +++ + + + + --- !!
=============== Comments:
C1. This matrix is just an example, since other people will vary in
their valuations, and both the problem and solution lists could be
redefined or extended. This sort of table makes the pros & cons
much clearer, at least for me, and it could also be used as a way
for the group to refine what they think is the best. You can't
really do that with prose discussion.
C2. The biggest problems we face are P1 & P2, although argument often
revolves around the more specific issues in P3 onwards. Problems 1,2
are intractable and not amenable to local solutions, whereas some of
the more specific problems do have specific solutions. Therefore
we should look at arrangements that provide the best "work-arounds"
for P1, 2.
C3. Obviously P3 and P4 are complementary, and having duplicate posts
on newsgroups in different hierarchies is the only way to get around
the bind.
C4. Very little weight should be attached to P6a (the complexity of
retrieving posts). Multiserver support is available in newsreaders
like NewsPro. If you want to stick with a newsreader without multi-
server support, commercial news-servers with much better retention
than the free ones exist and subscriptions are quite cheap. Using
P6a as a lynchpin argument in favour of a particular arrangement is
is done (IMO) only out of laziness, or to support illogical partisan
views.
C5. The exclamation marks in the P7 column indicate that this problem
should not be taken as a valid argument at all. Arguments about
saving bandwidth abound, but are invariably used in an attempt to win
support for the proposer's preferred arrangements. Use of this
particular line of argument is totally hypocritical, since anyone
familiar with the Net knows that you can completely rely on Net users
to be selfish when it comes to a choice between getting the material
they want, and wastage of a communal resource (ie, bandwidth).
Marion
I have read all your posted messages. Thanks for saying
so many of the things I was reluctant to spit out. I have incurred
the wrath of the 'cruel animal' some time in the past and have
been accused of saying things I did not actually say. And have
been prevented from presenting a defense and explanation
of what I really meant. There is no need to rehash all that now,
however. It is water under the bridge.
As for all the technical things involving bandwidth and ISPs etc.,
I have no understanding of all that. I just know that there must be
a flow of ideas, appreciation, various comments, help, and all else
in connection with fractal art (any art). Art can't exist if it is closed up
and there is no feedback about the impact it has on the lives of
others. Why else are there performances of various arts and galleries
if there was no need for affirmation that the art was appreciated and
enjoyed. That is why I left ABPF. Responses are so important.
Another reason I left ABPF is that it appeared that some could post
replies and that others, though not deleted, were frowned upon. It
appeared, and I say appeared, that there is some special group in
this fractal community from which anything was acceptable, but then
there was this unwritten feeling that there were others who were not
included. Somehow in this cyber-communication, feeling DO sail right
along with the words that are written. And these feelings are definitely
perceptible. That feeling of the 'in group' came through loud and clear
and would be very hard for me to describe. And I know I am not paranoid as
I have received quite a number of emails from others indicating that I was
not alone in detecting this. Acceptance? Only on the terms of the 'in group'?
How heartbreaking for newcomers to the fractal arts.
Enough said.
Marion
>Wonderful idea as long as we can talk to each other and not be
>dictated to through subjective perceptions of intent.
>
>The only problem will be proliferating the group to a multitude of
>major servers, but that should not take more than a month to six weeks
>with everyone's cooperation of regular posts and requests for servers
>to carry it.
>
>The inclusion of binary in the name can be an onus as well as a boon
>since many Usenet server sysops automatically limit the amount of time
>binaries stay on the system, or the amount of space allocated,
>regardless of the type of post. Binaries are usually limited as a
>group without regard to type.
>
>Maybe just alt.fractals.art. I make that suggestion because files for
>a.p.f stay on my server longer than a.b.p.f, and has on other servers
>I've used. The reason being that they are not in the binary
>sub-hierarchy. Since that would not solve the problem of the servers
>that don't accept binaries to non-binary groups, another possibility
>would be to bump up to the multi-media groups. Since they are the new
>kids on the block, sysops seem to be a bit more tolerant of the huge
>files and the length of retention.
>
>Whatever, the decision, the key is member support and convincing
>server sysops as to content and the volume of traffic when requesting
>that they carry the newsgroup.
>Another point is that although a.p.f would once again be abandoned, it
>will not be discontinued and available for future use. Undoubtedly it
>would be, and there is no reason to suggest that it could not still be
>used.
>
>No need to reply, just my vote of support and my $0.02, FWIW
>
>Doug
>
>
>
>On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 02:58:42 GMT, Stig Pettersson <d...@telia.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>><<<SNIP>>> the only acceptable solution that we could find
>>was to start an entirely new newsgroup.
>
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
Beth
Great idea! Great title. There are some people who wanted and tried to access AFP, but couldn't for those reasons.
I am for it 100%.
Beth
Marion
I could not agree with you more. I posted a reply to Doug which you might read.
I stated some of my thought there.
As for Jo Trotsky: I have not had any problems with him and consider him to be one
who is promoting the acceptance of fractal art no matter what fractal program is used,
has a web site which he is constantly updating and featuring new fractal artists and
techniques. If others have had problems with Jo, they need to resolve those problems
privately. But when they air those problems in certain venues in order to influence others
to see things their way and oust him entirely from the fractal community as has been
attempted, I think this is subversive and terribly unfair and unjust. Over time, it begins to
become more and more apparent what the motive is behind such a despicable practice.
Jo Trotsky has been fair and honest with me. I consider him a friend. If for any reason this
should ever change, that will be his and my business and I will not try to influence others
to turn against him. Sometimes certain personality types just don't click. Sometimes opposing
opinions cause friction and are hard to resolve. Sometimes cultural differences bring about
problems. Language differences can bring about problems. The very way we were brought
up can bring about opposing views on things. It is all very complex.
As for me, I will chose my cyber friends according to my own convictions and belief system and
will not be influence by any group. If I make an error in judgement, then it is ONLY my own fault. If
others have had a bad experience with him (or anyone), it is surely likely that they didn't make
clear in the firstplace what they would agree to or stipulate what their boundries were. It all boils down to
personal responsibility. Holler bloody murder when you get your toes stepped on when you
should have watched out where you put your feet.
Marion
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
Sasqui
I would be willing to go along with this: a new fractal binaries group that would
encompass all of fractal art -- pictures, music, poetry ... and very importantly,
the conversation that goes along with it. I like the name alt.binaries.fractal.art
or perhaps another suggestion could be alt.binaries.fractal-art.
I guess my only reservations are 1. the further fragmentation of the online fractal
arts community (first there was only abpf, now I keep track of two groups -- abpf
and afp, ... next there will be three groups to watch?! ;-) and 2. a "binaries" group
could be subject to a barrage of unwanted x-rated material, simply because of the
"binaries" tag in the name. We could face many of the same problems as abpf ...
and we may end up needing to set up a 'bot to filter unwanted material out &
establishing protocols (such as the abpf rule of including the word "fractal" in
the post) to mark relevant posts.
Both reservations are purely speculative. There may be only two groups to follow
if afp falls silent once again. The porn spammers may not discover our new
binary fractal group for a while, so a 'bot may not be necessary at first. I guess
the greatest difficulty may be in getting servers to carry this new group. Without
comprehensive coverage by multiple servers, many may not have access at all. I
think Ross hit upon many of the "what-if" scenarios quite well in his post, so I
won't repeat them here.
About posts remaining on afp longer than abpf because it isn't a "binary" group:
I feel a bit guilty about this. Maybe we are breaking the "rules" posting binaries
here, cheating servers that "don't know better". I don't know how long we will
be able to "get away" with this ... but I imagine that as servers wise up, more
and more will set up ways to restrict binary attachments in non-binary groups,
as some already have. Our binary days in here may be numbered ...
These are some of my thoughts. Overall, I think creating a new fractal art
binary group (a legitimate one) is a good thing, even with the difficulties in
setting it up.
Sarah
Stig Pettersson <d...@telia.com> wrote:
(snipped)
>
>There is however one problem. And this is related to the name of the group.
>The word binaries is not included in the name of the group.
>And this have caused problems. Some servers, or maybe I should say many servers,
>do not accept binary postings to a group without binary in the name of the group.
(snipped)
>The idea would be to create a binary newsgroup,
>not only related to fractal pictures but to fractal art as a total.
>It would include pictures, sounds, music, movies, animations - just name it.
>All of course related to fractal art but with possibilities to cross the borders sometimes.
>As, for example, combining fractal pictures or music with poetry.
>
>A suggestion for a name to the group could be alt.binaries.fractal.art
> but this is only a suggestion.
>If you have another name that you think would fit in then you are more than welcome to present it.
(snipped)
Beth
I have been thinking this through all day long. Do I post, don't I post, what should I do, but I finally decided that I had many
things on my mind that has been stewing for quite some time. I need to post.
First of all, it is amazing to me that TW can even access this NG. Don't you remember the information Ross posted for him
about his newsreader?
>Subject: Re: Fractal: On Easter Island
>From: Ross <rd-at-labyr...@discard.this.com>
>Date: 26 Sep 2000 16:48:19 GMT
>Lines: 56
>Newsgroups: alt.fractals.pictures
<snip>
>[Note to APF users - Terry has a newsreader which is >actually
>a small alpha-release AI (artificial intelligence). It >can
>do some nifty things but has a mind of its own, like the >pre-
>cognitive lifts of the Sirius Cybernetic Corporation. At
>present, one of its quirks is that it won't receive >posts
>from APF. One of things it does is look for rising >temperatures
>in threads, and if found it assumes a Net troll is >active and
>blocks the offending posts. This circuit seems to have >been set
>off by something on APF recently and he can't get it to >release
>the block.
In light of that previous post, how can he begin to criticize anyone for their choice to stop posting to abpf? It seems to me
that he asks us all to "do as he says, not as he does".
Of course, the thing that upsets me the most about all of this is the attack on Jo Trotsky. I, too, like Jo. He has been
encouragement when I needed it and has been a teacher when I wanted to learn. He has done nothing to me to make me
think badly of him and I will not let other people or their experiences draw my conclusions.
TW writes that Jo was banned from the UF mailing list. That is true, but for what reason? Not something he did on the
list.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Damien M. Jones <d...@fractalus.com>
> To: <ultraf...@lists.fractalus.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 9:35 PM
> Subject: [ultrafractal] Final(?) word
>
>
> Dearest List,
>
> Today I did something I had hoped never to have to do. I banned a person
> from this list. This is not something I do lightly, or without
>considerable
> thought. In the entire history of this list, it has never been done.
> >
> > The individual banned is Joseph Trotsky. <snip>Had I only his public list actions to consider, I
> would merely consider him rather unpleasant but defend his right to
stay.
> Over the weekend, in fact, there has been nothing controversial in his
>list
>posting.
<snip>
I find it extremely interesting that when something happens that they don't approve of, they are quick to hang Jo. Jo has
taken the blame for things I personally know he had nothing to do with. Frankly, I resent that very much. They must think
we are all a bunch of mindless idiots and need Jo to do all of our thinking for us. He is an intelligent man, and a good friend,
but I make my own decisions and will do what I please. They want to belittle him and strip him of power, but they do not
realize that by doing so, they give him power.
I imagine that I have said enough for now. I just have a couple more questions? Why does all of this B___ S___ take place
on this NG. We are all existing here with no chaos, getting along well. Can't they just leave us alone? And how come we
always get scolded when we didn't even start this mess?
Beth
Stig Pettersson
Stig
Stig Pettersson
But we will see what will happen.
Stig
Stig Pettersson
You actually gave me something to think about. The spam and these things is a problem that is bigger than I first
thought of. Have to think about that. To have three groups is of course no meaning with right now. If there is not full
support then we can just forget about it.
About if a non-binary group is "legal" or not - I never thought about that (stupid - isn´t it). But when I have talked to
different newsmasters about things related to this then they have never responded in any way like it would be
forbidden or so. Okay, I have only talked to a few - but anyway.
Well, well, well - we will see.
Stig
Stig Pettersson
abpf-moderated. A rather big step. Isnæ„’ it?
About the Initiative: Jo and I came up with this suggestion. But thatæ„€ all. This is open for all in the group.
The more help the better.
cu
Stig.
Stig Pettersson
and probably don´t want to understand either.
cu
Stig
Stig Pettersson
>Stig,
>You are wasting your time. He has carefully worded everything, he has
>written, to make it a no win situation. He has gone from total
>victimization to complete martyrdom through the crucifixion he
>perceives my reply to be. His deification is all but fait accompli!
>
>There are no more fences to be mended, let's keep forging ahead.
>
>Doug
Yes, ahead it is.
Stig.
Stig Pettersson
Honestly - I don´t know.
But where should it take place?
abpf is a silent group.
And we are having a good time.
People never like that you have a good time.
Stig
gumbykat
I think it's a great idea, but to be the devil's advocate, it's my
understanding that the "binaries" newsgroups are blocked from some ISPs - or
countries. Example: Jean-Pierre Louvet used to post - often- to abpf, but
then France - yes, the country - decided not to permit the "binaries"
newsgroup to be viewed because they are primarily porn. Their words, not
mine. So we lost Jean-Pierre and some of the others. And France may not be
the only country.
I could be wrong. Jean-Pierre has his internet connection through the
University of Bordeaux, his employer. Maybe I misunderstood him and it is
the university that blocks the binaries. But I don't think so. Doug may
remember this.
It's still a good idea.
Linda A
Stig Pettersson <d...@telia.com> wrote in message
news:Cr0S5.5648$QH2.6...@newsb.telia.net...
Marion
you have a good time.
he said the following, which I think is apt: "The 21st century
is going to be so politically correct, that art and fun will
probably become extinct."
And don't tell me that there are no politics in the
fractal community. You see, we are rebels and we
must somehow be exterminated or silenced.
Marion
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
Marion
funny about the whole thing. Yet there is a saddness
in it too.
I wonder if the Orkin man has a website. Guess it would
not be wise to visit it or we might get zapped out of
existance.
I suppose laughter about a situation is the best release.
I have seen this in ER situations after tragic accidents.
Jokes flow hot and heavy to relieve the intense emotional
stress of the tragedy. Survival often depends on such a
release.
Marion
>> And don't tell me that there are no politics in the
>>fractal community. You see, we are rebels and we
>>must somehow be exterminated or silenced.
>>Marion
>
>ROFLMAO!!! Do you think they will call the Orkin Man!
>
>(For our wondeful friends in coountries other than the U.S., Orkin is
>a pest extermination company that is reasonably well known. At least
>most parts of the east and midwest.)
>
>Marion, I'm sorry but it just struck me as funny. You are correct in
>your assessment. And bringing up Ross' remark underscores a world-wide
>prevailing trend that is inevitable. The pendulum swings both ways and
>it is definitely headed towards politically correct conservatism for
>many reasons.
>Doug
>
>
>
>On 21 Nov 2000 15:27:11 -0600, Marion <fire...@jbntelco.com> wrote:
>
>>Yes, you are right about people never liking it that
>>you have a good time.
>> Some time back Ross posted a remark to someone and
>>he said the following, which I think is apt: "The 21st century
>>is going to be so politically correct, that art and fun will
>>probably become extinct."
>> And don't tell me that there are no politics in the
>>fractal community. You see, we are rebels and we
>>must somehow be exterminated or silenced.
>>Marion
>
>--------------------------
>Doug Owen
>
>fractility AT juno DOT com
>Change the AT to @ and change DOT to a .
Doug Harrington
Except for an occasional peek in on the newsgroups in the past couple
of months I have been too busy to participate up until this past
week.The few times I have been able to check out the group I have been
rewarded with some inspiring fractals from you all!
Unfortunately it seems as if my timing couldn't have been worse, with
the dissension that is still there when I left. I am incrediblly
saddened at the inflammatory rhetoric that has been used on both sides
of this issue and the venemous hatred I have read. When I open my
newsreader all I really wish to do is share my art with others and to
enjoy the art that all of you create.I'm sure the majority of you feel
the same.
That is one reason, in addition to time constraints, that I decided to
focus in other areas and not post for a time.I wasn't "driven away" but
definitely did not want to experience this type of rhetoric when I was
looking for an pleasent experience,ie. enjoying your art!
I hope you all will read this completely and objectively (as I have on
what's been posted) and realize from your past experience with me that I
have no bone to pick with anyone and hopefully have always taken a
positive fair approach to everyone within this community.
When this topic was first brought up a few months ago I posted a couple
of my "two cents" posts in favor of posting replies and couldn't really
understand the fuss.(Not sure I still do!) I fully enjoyed the dynamic
of the group when we all posted our art and responded to each other in a
POSITIVE way. I miss that. Unfortunately I only recieve an occasional
image on abf.Because of that I am in full support of an additional group
where this can once again be accomplished. Consider that my vote! ;)
While I would like to ignore this issue that has erupted,I
cannot."Truth is not only violated by falsehood; It may be equally
outraged by silence." - Amien
In expressing my views I may be in a minority, but again, I must."In
matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place." - Mohandas
Gandhi
Since the word Nazi was invoked, these sayings hold even more meaning.
I do not know Terry Wright outside this newsgroup.I have only
corresponded with him a couple of times when I have complimented him on
a specific image, as I have to many others in this group. He has always
been courteous and gracious in his reponse.He has also offered only kind
words in regards to my art.Maybe he is more insidious and sinister than
I have seen.I guess I just don't see it.
However, when I read the message he posted, I simply saw it as his
opinion (which I do not neccassarily agree with!). I did not "read
between the lines" and assume that he was trying to control or
manipulate me (which he would have a hard time doing if he knew me & my
Irish temper!). Nor did I see that this man should be compared to
Stalin,Hitler etc.etc.etc.This is character assasination the likes I
have never before experienced.I believe that Stalin and Hilter employed
the same inflammatory rhetoric in their crimes against their fellow
human beings.
I do not know Jo Trotsky outside this newsgroup.I have also only
corresponded with him a few times. He invited me to participate in FAME
and has only been gracious and offered positive encouragement to me in
our correspondance with each other.To my knowledge he has never violated
the trust I have placed in his hands regarding my art. He did take some
artistic license naming a couple of my pieces but to be honest they were
far better than the titles I had picked and I had no problem with that.
In fact, I encouraged him to do the same with later submissions!Would I
have done that? Probably not but is it that big of deal? Maybe Jo is
more insidious and sinister than he seems.I guess I just don't see it.
I do not know Paul N. Lee. I have never corresponded with him. Is he an
ogre who is out to destroy this newsgroup? I don't think so. To the
contrary it seems as if he has been fair (although again I do not
necessarily agree with abpf guidelines!)and has worked hard moderating
it and offering his time.Maybe Paul is more insidious and sinister than
he seems.I guess I just don't see it.
I do not know Doug Owen. I have never corresponded with him and have
only seen a couple of posts by him recently. I completely agree with him
in some of the suggestions he has made but certainly not in the methods
(ie. words) that he has employed in expressing his opinion.Was this type
of rhetoric really necessary to express his opposition? While I would
agree with his positions, I would be ashamed of being a party to this
type of rhetoric, and will not.
I would like to think that all these men,differences aside, have their
own opinions,quirks,faults & frailties,weaknesses and strengths. As do
we all.I see neither Terry,Paul or Jo,in the light that they have been
painted. I only see hatred & venemous dislike between individuals (for
whatever reason). I do not know their past history or the feelings that
have been injured in the past.But I can see, objectively, what is
occuring now.
If Terry,Jo & Paul are as bad as they are painted, are we any better
when we use the type of attack that has been employed against these men?
I don't think so.This is as bad a crime as any these men may or may not
have committed.
I once came across a simple little poem that had an impact on me in how
I treated others and the words I used towards them.
Isn't it strange that princes and kings and
clowns that caper in sawdust rings
and common people like you and me are
builders for eternity?
Each is given a bag of tools,a shapeless
mass, a book of rules; and each must make
ere life is flown - a stumbling block
or a stepping stone. - R.L. Sharpe
To me it seems that there are not enough "stepping stones' and way too
many "stumbling blocks".
Maybe now I will be attacked. Or ignored. Or have my character
assasinated.But at least I know that I have not remained silent.
I do not see that this will improve. Men who attack in this way are
usually not prone to forgiving.But one can always hope for a peaceful
resolution and a stop to what has gone way too far. Sincerely, Doug
Harrington
Comments can be directed to me at Do...@Fractalarts.com
"My soul is among lions;I must lie among those who breathe forth
fire,Even the sons of men,whose teeth are spears and arrows,and their
tongue a sharp sword." Ps.57:4
MariaG
--
MariaG
Hobart, Tasmania
(remove zz to reply)
http://www.users.bigpond.com/jandmgrist (Shells, history, poems)
http://members.tripod.com/mgrist (Free wallpaper)
http://www.geocities.com/m_grist/ (Fractal Explorer gallery)
http://taspix.thetechzone.net (Digital photography from Tasmania)
Stig Pettersson <d...@telia.com> wrote in message news:Cr0S5.5648$QH2.6...@newsb.telia.net...
<snip>
> The idea would be to create a binary newsgroup,
> not only related to fractal pictures but to fractal art as a total.
> It would include pictures, sounds, music, movies, animations - just name it.
> All of course related to fractal art but with possibilities to cross the borders sometimes.
> As, for example, combining fractal pictures or music with poetry.
>
> A suggestion for a name to the group could be alt.binaries.fractal.art
> but this is only a suggestion.
<snip>
Nightingail
basis, and if we ever get DSL in my area (as promised to us), I hope to
do so again. As most people here know, I have a problem with a very slow
ISP, and find it difficult to keep up with posting/replying on 4
graphics newsgroups. (This one, abpf, also the PSP ng and
alt.binaries.comp-graphics where I've been a regular for years).
I've held back on commenting on this situation, mostly because it's so
controversial, and I try to stay out of controversy. However, as Doug
said in his post, I also feel I can't keep silent right now. Doug
has expressed my opinion exactly, on all of his points - so to spare
people any repetition, I'll just very briefly summarize a few things
that I feel strongly about:
- I don't feel that Terry Wright said anything to deserve the personal
attacks that he received about his initial message concerning
cross-posting. I don't agree with all that he said - but the viciousness
of the replies to him were imho totally uncalled for.
- I know that some people feel that Jo Trotsky has done unpardonable
things. Whereas I realize he's changed the appearance of a few peoples'
images without their express permission - and no I don't condone that -
I've never seen any *specific* examples of how he's infringed on
anyone's copyright by 'stealing' their work. All I've heard are rumors.
Personally, as far as my own artwork that is exhibited in FAME, he's
always shown the utmost respect for my wishes.
- I have no problem with the way Paul Lee moderates abpf.
I don't want to say 'too much' - yes, I definitely have more feelings
about what's going on in the groups, but I don't have the emotional
energy to get overly involved in this controversy. I would just like it
to be over with, so we can go back to enjoying the artwork. I would also
like to remain as 'neutral' as possible - however, to "ditto" Doug
again.. I would not have felt comfortable with myself if I'd remained
silent.
Gail
--
Nightingail's Gallery
http://www.netsync.net/users/nighting
Digital Artwork
Free Web Art and Graphics
Doug Harrington <Sup...@Fractalarts.com> wrote in message
news:3A1B3854...@Fractalarts.com...
Stan Hood
I hope your calming words will have the intended impact although I
fear that some will refuse to be shamed.
You have caused me to be regretful for being silent with my opinions but,
for now, suffice it to say that you have mirrored most of my feelings on
this.
Stan
Stig Pettersson
Yes, that is the meaning and I am also interested in the outcome.
However, it is far from an easy task and I promise nothing.
And it will take some time as I probably will be occupied with things
that not is related to "cyberspace" in the closest time to come.
However - I am not alone so who knows?
Right now it is just an idea but I thought it would be fair to share it from the very start.
Don´t have too much expectations. :-)
If it will be done then there will of course be problems in the beginning as many servers
won´t have the newsgroup then and it will look like the problems have got worse.
Under this time there will of course be a crossposting between the two groups until
things are working better.
Talking about crossposting. I happened to see your letter about this topic.
The only comment I have is: "You are an angel, Maria". :-)
Stig
Stig Pettersson
There are always problems. The worst of the problems are always the ones that one first don´t see.
I am more worried about how to reach all servers and about the spam and those things.
You must also understand that I have no real experience of usenet as a system
and it seems to be a rather hard task to find good solid information.
To me this really looks like a labyrinth. But as there are probably more than
80 000 newsgroups there must be some way to solve these problems.
But I guess that binary ones are more sensitive.
Stig.
Stig Pettersson
and a little it maybe brings us back to reality. Storms cannot be avoided
and sometimes they are needed - maybe, but they better be only for a short time.
This is a side of reality too, I´m afraid, and maybe it is best to pass this side as quick
as possible. Now we know how it looks and there can be more fun than this.
I know Terry a bit and of course he does not fit in to the profile that was
given to him. And none can of course believe that. I mean, even if I searched
the entire universe to find a person that fits in to that description I would
probably fail. :-)
It can be hard to say something about peoples personalities in cyberspace
but I have a very different and more positive view of Terry. But I will
not try to describe it but instead I would like people to find out for themselves
instead. Mail him, you will be surprised. And I think I can guarantee a positive surprise.
The paradoxe is that I am totally convinced that if Terry and Doug would meet then they
would instantly be the best of friends.
One can of course wonder what causes such explosive events to occure.
I have a theory about that. Maybe people will think I am crazy but okay.
I never said I am not.
Here it comes:
The interest for fractals have grown rapidly only in a couple of years.
So have internet and usenet. And this is of course reflected in abpf.
I am now referring to abpf before afp was reborn.
This means that more people have shown up and this means new
influences, ideas, thoughts, patterns and suddenly everything just
bubbles of life and creativity. But this will of course cause friction too.
Different people have different ways and there can be problems.
For example - some artists wants a more calm surrounding to grow.
Not too much talk and noise. The best is that the art talks for itself.
Other wants it more noisy with talk and laughter (maybe cry sometimes?)
and here the art not only talks but the artists too.
I guess that abpf is more suited for the first type. I don´t know how it
was from the beginning but now it seems to have that form and the
faq is shaped for this. And I guess that the oldtimers are used to this
and wants it this way. This is of course natural.
But with new influences things will change and there will be conflicts.
And those that talks will be told to keep a more silent profile.
They will feel suppressed and when asking for justice they will be
told to look at a cold faq.
When the "talking" people suddenly are in majority then the situation
will get worse. The voices will grow higher and so will the tension
in the group. There is no harmony any more and it is just a matter
of time until things starts to get rough.
At this point something has to be done otherwise it is only a short
matter of time until some more serious incident will occure.
And the two available solutions are:
Change the faq so it fits in better with the new situation.
Or split the group into two fractions.
The first alternative will solve the problem somehow but there will
still not be any harmony. There are still artists that not are satisfied
even if they now are a minority.
The second alternative will work but has a drawback too.
A separation causes mostly always some pain and it will
show itself one way or another. For example: noisy children
can give you headache but you will miss them when they are gone.
In this case the second alternative, the dividing of the group, was choosed
and afp was reborn.
A new group is always sensitive in its initial state.
It doesn´t matter if it is a newsgroup or if it is a big nation.
For example Sweden is a very old country. If I would go out and
burn its flag none would really care. Maybe someone would tell me
to take it easy so the fire would not spread.
If I would do the same in USA that is a very young nation, I would
very soon find myself in serious trouble.
That´s how these things works.
When Terry showed up and started to argue about problems that were closely
related to the problems that were in the old group (abpf), then it can be
compared with someone that enters a room full of explosive gas everywhere
and lights a match. There is no way to avoid an explosion. Doesn´t matter if
Gandhi or any saint is there. It will of course explode.
Terry must of course wonder what the ... happened.
But these things are natural.
And there is no reason to blame anyone - instead just try to understand
the forces that were in action.
So, if you are not posting to this group and have something to complain about,
move very, very carefully. Everything is a little sensitive and maybe it is
better to contact someone that is in the group instead.
Like Beth, Marion, or Jo for example. Then we will see what we can do about it.
And if the problem is related to abpf I think that a very good idea
would be to first contact Paul that is the manager of abpf.
He has a lot of experience and will know how to handle it.
Many people can have a problem with the current situation with two fractal newsgroups.
I don´t.
After all it is just nothing but a total natural evolution.
It is a sign that the interest for fractal art is growing and didn´t we want that?
We should be happy (toasting with champagne).
I have noticed that there are two types of professions where there are people with very unpredictable
temperament. The first are the scientists. At least the real thinkers.
But they are babes in arms compared to another group.
The artists.
Have you ever thought of that there are now two groups on usenet that are dealing with such an abstract
art as fractal art that is somehow connected even to science?
Two groups full of unpredictable artists.
Wow, what an adventure. You must understand that anything can happen.
So don´t even think of that things will be "normal". They won´t. Not a chance.
And once again - thanks for your letter Doug. I honestly appreciated it. Like fresh air.
Stig.
Beth
I was going to e-mail you privately, but it seems others have said so publicly, so I will, too. And, after reading the public
statements, there is really nothing more to be said. I accept the scolding and think Stig expressed my views exactly.
I thank God for reasonable people who can step back and look at things objectively. And perhaps that is what we should
all make an attempt to do from this point on.
Beth
Paul Carlson
this discussion but as I thought about what abpf was
five years ago, and what it has become today, I thought
that a few observations might be useful.
When I began to post images to abpf a few months ago
after a hiatus of about three years, I found the newsgroup
had changed considerably. Although the artistic quality
of most of the images posted had greatly improved, I was
left with the feeling that, in general, the group had gone
downhill, lacking the spirit and sense of fun that it
used to have. My first impression was that it had
turned into a rather formal Mutual Admiration Society,
with pretty much the same people saying pretty much the
same nice things about each other's images.
Please do not misunderstand me - there is absolutely
nothing wrong with complimenting one another. I fully
understand the need to know what others think of our
creations. What concerns me is that new visitors to the
newsgroup are likely to form the same first impression
as I did - that the group exists to tell each other how
great they are. It is difficult to avoid this impression
because there is no other discussion to speak of.
The rather formal way that the complimenting was done
also concerned me. When I first started posting again
to abpf in September, people were encouraged to (and
many did) combine all their compliments of the day into
a single message. When I first saw one of these messages
I thought, "Good grief! Next they'll have a standard form
with the image names in one column and rating categories
in the other columns."
Now most of the commenting takes place in another
newsgroup so there is much less chance that visitors to
the group will get the wrong impression (it is wrong,
isn't it?) of the group. But moving the comments (and
other discussion, if there was any) to another newsgroup
creates at least two other problems.
The first problem is that comments should (obviously, I
would think) be in the same newsgroup as the images. If I
read a comment about an image, I don't want to have to
switch newsgroups to refresh my memory as to which image
the comment refers. The second problem is that enforcing
an image-only policy would make an already relatively
lifeless (compared to five years ago) newsgroup, totally
dead.
Relatively lifeless? Yes, that's how it appears to me
and to some of the other people who were contributing to
the newsgroup five years ago. We weren't much concerned
about rules then, which enabled us to have a lot of fun
with the images we posted. An example that sticks out in
my mind is a series of about 15 images that Linda
(Gumbycat) Allison posted in 1995. Each image was
accompanied by a segment of an ongoing fantasy story
about knights, knaves and fools that Linda was composing
as she went along, making the story fit the image she
was posting. Off-topic? Sure, but it was hilarious
and had all of us (and visitors to the group) eagerly
waiting the next installment. Did the stories
"waste bandwidth?" Absolutely not, because I'm sure
they increased many people's interest in fractals, and
that should be (even if it's not spelled out somewhere)
a primary purpose of the newsgroup.
I could give other examples, but the point is that I
think it was obvious to anyone that the people who were
posting the images were having a great deal of fun doing
so and that fractals were fun things to get involved with.
It was also obvious to visitors that there existed a
camaraderie among most of the posters that was open and
that encouraged others to join in the fun.
Which brings up another point. In the last few months I
don't think I've seen any images posted by beginners.
Five years ago I would see them frequently. What is
keeping them away now? Do they sense that this is
somewhat of a closed group? Or perhaps the lack of
discussion leads them to believe that abpf is not the
place for them to learn how to improve their efforts.
Encouraging and helping beginners used to be a big
part of abpf, at least for many of us.
I realize, of course, that times have changed. Five
years ago the Internet had nowhere near the popularity
that it has today and the number of visitors to abpf
was probably a small fraction of what it is now. Today
there are many more fractal programs to choose from,
some having their own mailing lists where discussion is
encouraged. The fact that there are now program-specific
mailing lists in no way obviates the need for a more
public place that visitors can come to not only view
fractal images, but also to become involved with the
people who create the images. And does the increased
traffic to abpf necessitate more stringent rules? I don't
think so.
As Doug Owen mentioned, the "old" abpf was not without
problems. There will always be problems, and problems
will always cause negative change if the solution to
the problems is a tightening of the rules. I cannot
remember now exactly why I left abpf after about
two and a half years and posting well over a thousand
images. I don't think the problems had much to do
with my leaving because at that time there was still no
real enforcement of rules. I think more than anything
else, it was the fact that many of us got to taking
ourselves and our "work" too seriously. Some of us
received proposals to market our images in various
forms, and nothing can kill openness and camaraderie
the way the prospect of money can.
Some general guidelines are probably necessary, but I
can't think of any rules that need to be rigidly
enforced among those who are really interested in fractals.
But then, I'm one of those people who would rather walk
ten miles a day than to give up any degree of freedom to
have the trains run on time.
The idea of a new, more open newsgroup appeals to me
for all of the reasons I mentioned above. My only
concern is that it may take a long time for the new
group to be discovered by the same number of people that
now visit abpf more or less regularly. What would be
ideal, of course, would be to have abpf replace its
FAQ with Doug's Rogue FAQ. And why is that not possible,
since most of the people involved feel the same way
as Doug (including myself)? Who makes the rules, if not
the majority of those who have to live by them?
I'll end this much too long message with the best advice
I can think of, based on past experience: Let's not
take ourselves and what we create too seriously - it drains
all the fun out of it and leads to all sorts of nasty stuff.
Life is too short - let's have fun with this stuff and help
others to do the same.
Paul Carlson
Marion
A very informative letter. Thank you. It would be so nice
to have such an open and sharing group as abpf once
was where art can be shared, things can be learned, and
everyone can have some fun in the process. This is what
I am looking for. I have only been at this fractal making
hobby since March and so far have encountered several
unpleasant experiences. I just wanted to have fun and
enjoy this endeavor.
Thanks for you letter,
Marion
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
Stig Pettersson
I begin to get more and more curious about the old days.
When I started to post to abpf it was not like that at all.
Any way, according to my experience there are no good old days.
Only fragmentary memories of good happenings.
The future is luckily always better than the past.
I am not sure that a newcomer would see all these comments
like it is a club for internal admiration. I think the effect is more
that this seems to be a nice place to be. But this is a bit related to
what experiences you have had from similar situations.
A silent newsgroup can be quite scary.
A friend pointed out abpf for me as he knew I was interested in fractals.
But I thought more than twenty times before I decided to give it a try.
If I had been in the similar situation and looked at afp then I had not hesitated.
But that is me.
And I have seen other newsgroups that deals with graphic art and have a lot
more commenting than afp.
If I understand you right you are pointing at the option that to change the faq in abpf to
Dougæ„€ suggestion and then have one newsgroup instead. Well, I like Dougæ„€ faq very much.
And this option would spare me a lot of work. But there are problems.
There are still people that would not like the commenting.
And there are people that were deeply hurted in abpf and will not go back easily.
Even if an alternative (alt) newsgroup does not belong to anyone there
are still people that feels that afp is their "home" where they can do what they
want to do without interfering. Here they have a chance to be as eccentric they want
(if they want - many artists are eccentric) and here they can talk or sing or what ever
they now want to do. If someone has a problem with that it is just to point out that abpf
is a good alternative and maybe would be a better choice for that person.
But I cannot deny that it is an option.
Stig
Beth
Thanks for your note. Sounds like I wish I'd been there.
How wonderful it would be if Linda A. would share those again!!
Beth
Juan Luis
binaries/non-binaries, comments-no-comments in any available
newsgroup, but I have to say that of all the messages (biases and
neutrals) I have read in here and in a.b.p.f the most enlightening one
is this from Paul Carlson. I'm quoting some sections at the end of
this message which I think are extremely important.
I like the idea of having two newsgroups of fractal images and art. It
makes me at least imagine there's no "monopoly" around. But having
three on the same topic and purpose to follow up, in my opinion, isn't
necessary, especially when the "posters" and "readers" are all the
same. Or will the founding of a new group will be accompanied
necessarily by the abandonment of the former?
I have some more questions:
1) When you (whomever the "you" is) start a newsgroup, do you have to
pay for setup and monthly fees? Excuse my ignorance, but I still
consider myself a newbie in this technological and media matters.
2) If the answer is NO (or yes, it doesn't matter), who owns the
rights over any newsgroup?
3) Isn't usenet public?
4) Are GUIDELINES and RULES one and the same?
5) Does the "binaries" element in a newsgroup name, which is obviously
a technical parameter intended for operating systems to rule out (or
classify) content, work the same way on the human mind "operating
system"? I mean must that "binaries" element refrain us from posting
text messages to a binaries newsgroup?
6) How penetrating does "nettiquette" must be on us?
7) Are those "nettiquette" guidelines or rules nature's laws that
cannot be altered or modify in any way?
As Paul Carlson previously said (or suggested), all these problems
could have been solved (even avoided) if a.b.p.f were more flexible
about text messages, to start with. It still troubles me (and I still
don't understand) why there was the need to stop posting text messages
because some people didn't want to read them, and why some people flew
away because they wanted to keep posting text messages. Personally, I
like to read the comments the public and us send in in response to
image postings, not only because it makes the group more fun and
alive, but because I don't want to stay on what goes on in my mind
but to know what others interpret or perceive in whatever picture they
are discussing. These comments are usually very inspiring (especially
for novices) and usually give clues as to what to try.
I once proposed to modify a.b.p.f FAQ and the message went pretty
ignored. Someone did it later, and you all know the results.
I think I know the answer (regretfully), but wouldn't it be easier to
know the difference between computers and humans, and to distinguish
that the later is capable of real understanding? Wouldn't it be easier
to do something and get the a.b.p.f realized that the FAQ is just a
GUIDELINES file and not a compendium of laws of nature?
Juan Luis
P.S. Permission is granted to read between lines.
On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 02:04:01 GMT, Paul Carlson <carl...@home.com>
wrote:
>(Gumbycat) Allison posted in 1995. Each image was
>accompanied by a segment of an ongoing fantasy story
>about knights, knaves and fools that Linda was composing
>as she went along, making the story fit the image she
>was posting. Off-topic? Sure, but it was hilarious
>and had all of us (and visitors to the group) eagerly
>waiting the next installment. Did the stories
>"waste bandwidth?" Absolutely not, because I'm sure
>they increased many people's interest in fractals, and
>that should be (even if it's not spelled out somewhere)
>a primary purpose of the newsgroup.
>Some general guidelines are probably necessary, but I
>can't think of any rules that need to be rigidly
>enforced among those who are really interested in fractals.
>But then, I'm one of those people who would rather walk
>ten miles a day than to give up any degree of freedom to
>have the trains run on time.
>
>The idea of a new, more open newsgroup appeals to me
>for all of the reasons I mentioned above. My only
>concern is that it may take a long time for the new
>group to be discovered by the same number of people that
>now visit abpf more or less regularly. What would be
>ideal, of course, would be to have abpf replace its
>FAQ with Doug's Rogue FAQ. And why is that not possible,
>since most of the people involved feel the same way
>as Doug (including myself)? Who makes the rules, if not
>the majority of those who have to live by them?
-----------------------------------------------
Visit...
T h i r d . A p e x . t o . F r a c t o v i a
http://www.eclectasy.com/fractovia/
-----------------------------------------------
Marion
Great message which seems to echo what so many have
said about the posting of replies to images. Thank you again.
Marion
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
Paul Carlson
> How wonderful it would be if Linda A. would share those again!!
I'll ask her if she still has them. She may not have the old images -
her
images these days are several orders of magnitude better than those
she was creating five years ago. I would love to read the stories
again.
I can only remember bits and pieces of them, but they were hilarious.
I remember one in which the knights, knaves and fools were being
chased by a dragon through a cave or cavern of some kind. One of
the fools had brought along his cow, and he and his cow were bringing
up the rear. The cow was gassy (as cows often are) and at one point
when the dragon had just about overtaken them, the cow "broke wind"
which was ignited by the dragon's firey breath, turning the cow into
an unguided missile.
I don't remember the outcome of this portion of the story or the image
that accompanied it, but I do remember laughing so hard I almost
fell off my chair.
Paul
Paul N. Lee
>
> .....I thought about what abpf was five years ago,
> observations might be useful.
And I remember what it has been like everyday over the past five years,
since I never went away and have seen it in all phases (including the
other half-dozen or so fractal related newsgroups).
>
> When I began to post images to abpf a few months ago....
> My first impression was that it had turned into a rather
> formal Mutual Admiration Society, with pretty much the
> same people saying pretty much the same nice things
> about each other's images.
And from earlier this year up, until the FAQ was modified on Sat, 09 Sep
2000 01:50:11, the a.b.p.f. had become pretty much nothing but a "Mutual
Admiration Society" with all of the back-patting reply comments. In
fact the total number of images had dropped at one point to only 20% of
the total postings. The "b.p.f." in the name of the newsgroup consists
of "binaries" "pictures" and "fractals", and does not stand for
"back-patting" "people" "for-everything".
>
> ....people were encouraged to (and many did) combine all
> their compliments of the day into a single message.
This was to ensure that the images would not "roll-off" of those servers
that set a limit as to the physical count of postings to a newsgroup.
This became apparent from many individuals that pointed out the fact of
not being able to see as many images any longer, as stated by Regina
"succubus" on Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:33:54:
"Since the innundation of all the "one liner" messages
on a.b.p.f. my ISP has changed the storage time down
to 1 week (previously 21 days). (They haven't done
this to a.b.p yet.....) I miss many fractals because
of this (I am not always on line within the 7 days)
and it is too late to change what has happened."
>
> If I read a comment about an image, I don't want to have
> to switch newsgroups to refresh my memory as to which image
> the comment refers.
Since approximately 97% of all comments are for images on the a.f.p.
newsgroup (and not on a.b.p.f.), I doubt that you will have to do that
much switching if any at all.
>
> We weren't much concerned about rules then, which
> enabled us to have a lot of fun with the images we
> posted. An example that sticks out in my mind is a
> series of about 15 images that Linda (Gumbycat) Allison
> posted in 1995.
And did you know that the original ABPF-FAQ was written by Linda Allison
several years ago?? She was the monitor for the newsgroup and used the
email address of mailto:abpf...@aol.com to answer questions and post
the FAQ regularly. Here are the first two paragraphs of what she used
to post:
______________________________________________________________________
The purpose of alt.binaries.pictures.fractals is the posting of fractal
pictures, only. If the article is a non-fractal picture, post it to
another, more appropriate picture's newsgroup. If the picture is not a
fractal, don't post it to this newsgroup. Lengthy non-picture articles
and ongoing discussions that may or may not relate to fractals should
also be posted to other, more appropriate newsgroups.
To post to this newsgroup, either the subject line or the body of each
posting must contain at least one of the following keywords: fractal,
julia, mandelbrot, mandy, fractint. Keywords are not case-sensitive,
and will be accepted in singular or plural form. Postings that do not
meet this requirement will be automatically cancelled by a 'Bot that is
in place. If you are posting appropriate materials to this newsgroup
for the first time, welcome!
______________________________________________________________________
The above text has hardly changed over the past three years. And
nothing in the current FAQ says that replies and comments are not
allowed, just that they be limited to some extent to accomodate the
various settings of servers around the world. It was meant as a means
to compromise between tons of reply comments and only a few images. The
keyword here is "compromise", so that both sides would make concessions
and still be able to do what they have always done.
>
> In the last few months I don't think I've seen any
> images posted by beginners.
I see them all the time, would you care to have them listed for you on a
regular basis so that you could be more thorough in your viewings?? But
then I spend a few hours everyday going through ALL of the fractal
related newsgroups and look at ALL postings. I have been doing this for
several years.
>
> I realize, of course, that times have changed.
Yes they have, considerably.
>
> And does the increased traffic to abpf necessitate
> more stringent rules?
Since the AOL mentality seems to have taken over (which means chatting
about anything with anyone), this has caused many "binary" newsgroups to
become flooded with text messages. Since most news servers set various
limits on the "binary" newsgroups, one of which is the count of
postings, then it behooves the readers of the a.b.p.f. to limit the text
messages, if they wish to be able to view all "binary pictures" of
"fractal" nature.
>
> As Doug Owen mentioned, the "old" abpf was not without
> problems. ..... I cannot remember now exactly why I
> left abpf after about two and a half years..... I don't
> think the problems had much to do with my leaving because
> at that time there was still no real enforcement of rules.
That's funny, since that was about the time the FAQ was originally being
posted by Linda Allison. I believe she started doing this towards the
end of 1997 (I'll have to look in my archives to get the exact date and
time). :-)
>
> Some general guidelines are probably necessary, but I
> can't think of any rules that need to be rigidly
> enforced among those who are really interested in fractals.
There are no rules that are being "rigidly enforced". The only sentence
that was added to the initial paragraph of the FAQ that Linda wrote is
as follows:
"If posting a reply or comment on fractal images, then
please group multiple replies and comments into a single
posting to avoid a proliferation of "one-liner" messages,
or send directly to the orginating poster via email."
This doesn't say anything about not replying nor about not sending
comments. It only asks (with the word "please") to keep them from
taking over the amount of images being posted.
>
> The idea of a new, more open newsgroup appeals to me....
If you are going to have a more versatile newsgroup which allows not
only graphic images, but fractal music, fractal videos, and anything
else fractal related, then this is the only route to take. The a.b.p.f.
is what it's name is for "binary fractal pictures", not "multimedia".
As Doug Owen stated in his Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:53:48 reply posting to
this newsgroup:
"It is agreed, within abpf, that the problem with that
group accepting any and all binary attachments, is that
the hierarchy specifies pictures. The problem here is
that we are not a binary group. We can't go back, we
can't stay here................ So, I guess, regardless
of the evolution or either group it is pragmatic to form
alt.binaries.fractal-art or alt.binaries.multimedia.fractal-art
or whatever. It's the only way to be inclusive to all
forms of expression...."
I have often thought of starting such a newsgroup for the last two
years, but didn't know if it would be supported by the community. With
the increased popularity of fractals in all sort of medium, and the
increased access by many individuals around the world, then I would
whole hardly support another newsgroup that would be better suited for
such.
The a.f. and the a.f.p. were created before the a.b.p.f. was. So
actually this newsgroup has just come full circle again, and is
continuely gaining popularity over the past three months.
And as Juan Luis just recently replied a few hours ago:
"I like the idea of having two newsgroups of fractal
images and art. It makes me at least imagine there's
no "monopoly" around."
The more individuals that become involved with the fractal community,
the more there will be heated discussions and debates, and the breaking
off into various splinter groups. This is unavoidable, as seen by the
enormity of newsgroups currently available throughout the Usenet. This
is something that has been going on for many years. One group wants it
totally their way and another wants it totally their own way. The
ABPF-FAQ has only tried to compromise between the two with what seems to
be a fair concession from each side of the issue.
But there should be a new fractal newsgroup formed that would be all
inclusive as to what could and should be posted within it. Both of the
current "pictures" newsgroups do not resolve this issue.
Sincerely,
P.N.L.
--------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.fractalus.com/cgi-bin/theway?ring=fractals&id=43&go
Paul Carlson
> And from earlier this year up, until the FAQ was modified on Sat, 09 Sep
> 2000 01:50:11, the a.b.p.f. had become pretty much nothing but a "Mutual
> Admiration Society" with all of the back-patting reply comments. In
> fact the total number of images had dropped at one point to only 20% of
> the total postings. The "b.p.f." in the name of the newsgroup consists
> of "binaries" "pictures" and "fractals", and does not stand for
> "back-patting" "people" "for-everything".
I agree that something had to be done about this situation. When
complimenting
each other's image becomes as routine as it is now, the compliments become
pretty much meaningless. A compliment would be much more meaningful if
emailed privately to the image creator - at least then the artist knows that
the
person thought enough of the image to take the time to send a private
message.
On the other hand, if an image strikes someone as so extraordinary or
breaking
new ground, then it might be appropriate to call everybody's attention to
it.
A few compliments of this type would not create the impression of a Mutual
Admiration Society IF there was other fractal-related discussion in the
group.
And I am very much in favor of having other fractal-related discussion in
the
group. If people would agree to do their routine complimenting by private
email, I doubt that the other discussion would cause any noticeable "roll
off"
of images.
> Since approximately 97% of all comments are for images on the a.f.p.
> newsgroup (and not on a.b.p.f.), I doubt that you will have to do that
> much switching if any at all.
I don't get the images on a.f.p. (which I'll have to do something about).
> And did you know that the original ABPF-FAQ was written by Linda Allison
> several years ago?? She was the monitor for the newsgroup and used the
> email address of mailto:abpf...@aol.com to answer questions and post
> the FAQ regularly. Here are the first two paragraphs of what she used
> to post:
Yes, and I know it was not her intent to in any way limit fractal-related
discussion. The problems at that time were spam (mostly chain letters
and pornography) and images (including pornograhy) that were being
posted with misleading headers. The sentence:
> Lengthy non-picture articles and ongoing discussions that may or may not
> relate to fractals should also be posted to other, more appropriate
> newsgroups.
is a bit confusing because of the "may or may not" phrase which had to
do, I believe, with some extended flaming that was going on and that
was, as least somewhat, fractal-related.
> > In the last few months I don't think I've seen any
> > images posted by beginners.
>
> I see them all the time, would you care to have them listed for you on a
> regular basis so that you could be more thorough in your viewings??
I do view all the images. I sometimes do not read carefully the
introductions
to an image, so it may well be that I did not recognise an image as being
posted by a beginner, especially considering that with today's fractal
programs, beginners can turn out images that experienced fractal creators
could only dream about just a few years ago.
The point I was trying to make in my original post on the subject
was simply that the group does not have the spirit it once had and
that I thought maybe by allowing more discussion (not more
compliments - I should have made that clearer) some of the former
spirit could be restored - even if it brought with it some other
problems. Maybe this isn't possible. But I thought I'd mention
a few of these things to possibly open up more discussion. Nothing
I said was meant as being critical of you, Paul, and I hope you
didn't read that into it.
All the best,
Paul Carlson
Paul N. Lee
>
> I agree that something had to be done about this situation.
> When complimenting each other's image becomes as routine as
> it is now, the compliments become pretty much meaningless.
And that was all that I tried to do by adding that simple sentence,
which seemed to be mis-interpreted as NO text postings. It's just that
some individuals don't wish to compromise for the better good of the
community. They would rather be boisterous and have their own way, so I
volunteered the information about the "almost dead" a.f.p. newsgroup as
an alternative, which at least a dozen individuals jumped on.
>
> And I am very much in favor of having other fractal-related
> discussion in the group. If people would agree to do their
> routine complimenting by private email, I doubt that the other
> discussion would cause any noticeable "roll off" of images.
More than likely this is true, unless such controversial topics as
copyrights was introduced (which seems to happen every six months or
so). Discussions about techniques used, what programs, and which
filters was something I tried to get everybody to include with their
image postings. And this was being done for a couple of months, but
kind of died away. The only portion that seemed to "stick" was the
fractal generator that was used, which several people still give freely.
A paragraph that I added to the FAQ on Mon, 02 Aug 1999 00:26:54, stated
the following:
"What has been the "norm" for posting to this particular
binary newsgroup for some time is either a JPEG or GIF
image. Most postings are of the size 800x600 or 1024x768,
and are a single file attachment. This is not a rule or
law, just a helpful suggestion to "get along" with others."
This was later revised on Sat, 29 Apr 2000 04:47:16 to better express
the following (note the last sentence which promotes discussion):
"What has been the "norm" for posting to this particular
binary newsgroup for some time is either a JPEG or GIF
image, and as a single file attachment. Most postings
range in size from 1024x768 down to 800x600, but there
have been various other dimensions. This is not a rule
or law, just a helpful suggestion to "get along" with
others. What is also appreciated, is the inclusion of
a comment as to the fractal generator used for each image
posted to the newsgroup."
>
> I don't get the images on a.f.p. (which I'll have to do
> something about).
The ABPF-FAQ also tries to address this issue with information it gives
out (another item that I added to assist others).
>
> Yes, and I know it was not [Linda Allison's] intent to in
> any way limit fractal-related discussion.
Nor was, is or will be my intent either. Discussion is good when it
promotes technique and skills, but floods of single-line "Great Image"
comments get real old after the first day or two.
>
> The sentence is a bit confusing because of the "may or
> may not" phrase which had to do, I believe, with some
> extended flaming that was going on and that was, as
> least somewhat, fractal-related.
Yes, and these have happened again on occasion, but after a simple
reminder of the FAQ, they tend to die down and go away. That is not the
current issue though, it is one of simple courtesy to others that wish
to view images without having them "roll-off" due to a server using the
"counter" method. It known as respect for others, with a little
understanding thown in.
>
> .....so it may well be that I did not recognise an
> image as being posted by a beginner, especially
> considering that with today's fractal programs,
> beginners can turn out images that experienced
> fractal creators could only dream about just a few
> years ago.
This is quite true, unless one is familiar with all of the hundreds of
names that show up in the fractal community, then it is hard to realize
the "newbies" from the "middies" from the "oldies". ;-}
But since I created the "Fractal Census", and have been trying to keep
it fairly up-to-date, I tend to notice a lot more than the normal or
average fractal viewer. And I'm not implying that a few others don't
see the new stuff or the new people, only that I'm in a position to be a
little bit more aware when something does come along.
>
> The point I was trying to make in my original post on
> the subject was simply that the group does not have the
> spirit it once had and that I thought maybe by allowing
> more discussion (not more compliments.....
Yes, I would like to see it return to what was happening about a year
ago from this time. When there was simple fractal related discussion,
and NOT more compliments. That was the whole purpose of that one
sentence. As I've said before, if one's ego is so fragile that they
have to compliment everyone else's images just so others will feel
obligated to comment on theirs, then they better give it up as an
artist, because they won't be able to take the real critics of the
world.
>
> Nothing I said was meant as being critical of you, Paul,
> and I hope you didn't read that into it.
Nor was my posting meant as an attack against you. I only wished to
express my point of view and to relate some more facts of these issues
that have been ongoing since before you rejoined. That way you would
have a better understanding of what all is really happening.
And neither you nor I will never know all the details of these issues
(nor will anyone), because of all of the private emails that go flying
around which malign various individuals. I have been able to
occasionally acquire a few of these from my many resources, but I know
there are way too many more. Most are just vicious rumors and are very
terrible in what they say about others. Some have taken text out of
content to make it look the way they want to portray a specific
individual, and that is really sad to see (especially when it comes from
a person that one respected in the fractal community).
All I can say is, that I have always been one for the continued use of
comments to promote communication amongst the fractal community. Even
though Ross does not post fractal images, he has always been one of the
individuals that I have enjoyed seeing comments from. They are both
intelligent, enlightening, and usually very humorous, and I hope he
continues to grace our newsgroups.
But I feel that the a.b.p.f. is NOT a place for ego boosting with
unlimited back-patting one-liners. Take a look at the a.f.p. and you
will see exactly what I mean. Like you said at the beginning of your
reply, "When complimenting each other's image becomes as routine as it
is now, the compliments become pretty much meaningless." And this is
only a taste of what was going on in the a.b.p.f. newsgroup this past
late Spring and all during Summer.