Pattern masks
Tom Shermer
I've been having problems tying to save a pattern with a mask in
Painter 6.1 (PC).
I currently have a file with a user mask; when I create a pattern from
it the mask
info doesn't seem to get saved. I've tried to create a visibility mask
for the Canvas,
but haven't figured out how (is such a thing supported?). I've tried
floating my image
and using the floater's visibility mask, but then the pattern is just
blank ('cuz the
Canvas is empty). I've RTFM, and scanned the Wow! book, but see no
mention
of how to save patterns with masks. Anyone know how it's done?
Coincidentally, I've tried checking out the patterns from the Painter
pattern library,
and even the ones that work with the masked pattern pen (like Chain and
Celtic Knot)
check out as a file without any masks.
I've also had problems with the drawers (such as the Image Portfolio or
Pattern) when
I have more than about 25 things in them. In these cases, a scrollbar
appears at the
side of the drawer, but moving the scrollbar does nothing to the
pictures I can see in
the drawer. Has anyone else had this problem? Know of a fix?
Thanks in advance for any help offered...
Tom
KSperling
When I made the original file, I created the mask using Select menu: Auto
Select: Image Luminance, then I used Select menu: save selection.
I did Patterns menu: Define Pattern to edit the pattern, then I saved the
pattern to the patterns palette.
When I painted with the Pattern mask pen it masked out the areas like my
original.
So make sure you've done the above.
Also, what differentiates the pattern pen from the mask pattern pen is the
Brush controls: General: source menu. The pattern pen's source is pattern, the
pattern with mask's source is pattern with mask, make sure the 2nd one is
chosen.
A quick way to go to these original settings is to choose Brushes palette:
Variant menu: Restore default variant.
Hope this helps.
Karen Sperling
Editor/Publisher
Artistry Painter Tutorial CD's
http://www.artistrymag.com
KSperling
patterns in the library, I can see that the masks were set up in many different
ways, not that they are visible in the images, just that I can tell. In other
words, I didn't mean to say that auto select is the only way that works to
create a pattern brush.
The manual describes the various ways of setting up masks to help you in
creating the masks for your pattern brushes.
I'm sure the wow book has info on masks as well, as do my tutorial cd's.
Good luck!
Karen Sperling
http://www.artistrymag.com
Jinny Brown
I gather that you're trying to create a Pattern that you can use with
the Pattern Pens set to Mask with Pattern?
If so, and I'm not sure this is what you want:
First create your your Pattern. For instance, paint a small grouping of
simple flowers with space between the flowers. Make a selection of what
you've painted. In the Patterns menu, choose Capture Pattern and give it
a descriptive name. Now your new Pattern is in the current Patterns
library.
Use the Pen, Pattern Pen variant set to Pattern with Mask and paint
using the Pattern you just made. It will paint a string of flower groups
with space between them (transparent areas between the flowers because
that's how you created it).
The new Pattern will behave just as any other Pattern when you choose
either Pattern, Pattern with Mask, or Pattern with Opacity. If a Pattern
has transparent areas, it will paint with transparent areas so that if
you paint this kind of Pattern over a solid color, you'll see that the
solid color shows through the transparent areas of the Pattern. A
Pattern that has no transparent areas in it will paint a solid swash and
cover anything that's below it.
You can't make a Mask for the Canvas, only for a Layer or Shape that's
been Committed to an Image Layer. The Canvas always remains below the
Layers or Shapes and can't be moved above them. When you select the
Canvas and click with the Layer Adjuster tool, the selection's contents
are lifted to a Layer and the Canvas remains where it was and is now
blank.
If you want to make any Pattern, first make a selection, then in the
Patterns menu, choose Capture Pattern and give it a descriptive name. In
Painter 6, you can make the selection on either the Canvas or a Layer.
You'll nave to use the Patterns list to find any that are not shown with
icons. Yes, I've noticed that the Patterns window even when expanded can
only display a limited number of icons. It's probably good to organize
Patterns in more than one library and that would help to prevent the
no-show icons thing.
Jinny Brown
http://www.pixelalley.com
_________________________
Tom Shermer wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
> I've been having problems tying to save a pattern with a mask in
> Painter 6.1 (PC).
> I currently have a file with a user mask; when I create a pattern from
> it the mask
> info doesn't seem to get saved.
<SNIP>
Jinny Brown
I must be misunderstanding the function of the Pattern with Mask option.
Just from observation, not reading the manual <g>, I see that it paints
a Pattern with transparent areas, either within the Pattern, or along
the edges. The default Red Roses Pattern works this way as did a simple
one that I made to test before responding to Tom.. which consisted of a
small grouping of flowers with space between them. When the Red Roses
Pattern is used the edges are transparent and the center of the stroke
is solid. When I used my flower Pattern, I could paint over an
underlying color and see through the flower pattern where it was
transparent.. where there were spaces between my flowers. When I used
the Pattern setting for Source, both of these Patterns painted a solid
stroke and in my flower pattern, the transparent spaces were filled with
white.
Are we doing basically the same thing, or am I missing something that I
should learn?
Thanks, :o)
Jinny
P.S. ACK!! I tried it a second and third time and can't for the life of
me make these patterns paint with transparency (using Pattern with
Mask). What did I do the first time, that worked, and what did I do the
second and third times that didn't work? Also, the one that worked
doesn't work now. All I can think is that I changed some setting or
other but don't have a clue what it could be.
_____________________________
KSperling wrote:
>
> Here's what I found in setting up a pattern pen.
> When I made the original file, I created the mask using Select menu: Auto
> Select: Image Luminance, then I used Select menu: save selection.
> I did Patterns menu: Define Pattern to edit the pattern, then I saved the
> pattern to the patterns palette.
> When I painted with the Pattern mask pen it masked out the areas like my
> original.
> So make sure you've done the above.
> Also, what differentiates the pattern pen from the mask pattern pen is the
> Brush controls: General: source menu. The pattern pen's source is pattern, the
> pattern with mask's source is pattern with mask, make sure the 2nd one is
> chosen.
> A quick way to go to these original settings is to choose Brushes palette:
> Variant menu: Restore default variant.
> Hope this helps.
> Karen Sperling
> Editor/Publisher
> Artistry Painter Tutorial CD's
> http://www.artistrymag.com
<SNIP>
KSperling
I always find it is most helpful if we all use the same terminology.
It's the Patterned Pen, masked variant of the Pens category I was describing.
<<Tom, I gather that you're trying to create a Pattern that you can use with
the Pattern Pens set to Mask with Pattern?
If so, and I'm not sure this is what you want:
First create your your Pattern. For instance, paint a small grouping of
simple flowers with space between the flowers. Make a selection of what
you've painted
In the Patterns menu, choose Capture Pattern and give it
a descriptive name. Now your new Pattern is in the current Patterns library.
Use the Pen, Pattern Pen variant set to Pattern with Mask and paint
using the Pattern you just made. It will paint a string of flower groups
with space between them (transparent areas between the flowers because
that's how you created it). >>
So far so good.
<<The new Pattern will behave just as any other Pattern when you choose
either Pattern, Pattern with Mask, or Pattern with Opacity.>>
This wasn't what I experienced. The Patterned Pen, masked variant of the Pens
category is the only one that masks out the areas that are masked in the
original image.
<<If a Pattern
has transparent areas, it will paint with transparent areas so that if
you paint this kind of Pattern over a solid color, you'll see that the
solid color shows through the transparent areas of the Pattern. A
Pattern that has no transparent areas in it will paint a solid swash and
cover anything that's below it. >>
That is if the transparent areas were masked in the original image.
<<You can't make a Mask for the Canvas, only for a Layer or Shape that's
been Committed to an Image Layer. The Canvas always remains below the
Layers or Shapes and can't be moved above them. When you select the
Canvas and click with the Layer Adjuster tool, the selection's contents
are lifted to a Layer and the Canvas remains where it was and is now
blank.>>
Sure you can have masks and selections in the canvas.
Karen Sperling
Editor/Publisher
Artistry Painter 6 Tutorial CD's
http://www.artistrymag.com
Tom Shermer
Thanks for your help--it did the trick. Yes, I was trying
to create a pattern to use with "Pattern Pen, Masked"
(Rendered Dab, Single Stroke, Pattern with Mask Source).
I was missing the key element of "selection". So here's
how I think it goes:
Each file has what I call the "last selection", which is the
active selection if there is one, or the last selection that
was active, otherwise. [A non-active last selection can
be made active the "Select>Reselect" (Ctrl-R) command.]
"Capture Pattern" uses the active file as a source image,
cropped to the bounding box of its last selection. It also
uses the last selection to define the pattern's mask.
I guess I was previously trying to use masks that I had
made but never loaded as a selection, or had used
"Select All" before "Capture Pattern".
When you check out a pattern from a pattern library, it
appears that the mask information does not come along
with it. (bummer!)
I'm left with one thing that I haven't figured out here--
Some patterns (Celtic Knot, for example) have an image
that extends outside of the bounding box of the defined mask.
[Try Celtic Knot with the Pattern Pen and with the Pattern
Pen, Masked. Note the purple area completely above the
knot when it is not masked.] If "Capture Pattern" crops to
the bounding box of the selection that it is using for a mask,
how could I make a pattern like Celtic Knot?
I do try to organize my materials into different libraries, but
sometimes it makes sense to me to have large ones. For
example, I have an image portfolio of about 100 images of
human mouths that I scarfed from a series of photos. I'd
prefer if they were all in one portfolio, but I've had to break
it up into four just so I can see the icons. :( It looks like
they tried to make the drawer contents scrollable (after
all, there is a scrollbar) but somehow got it messed up. Oh
well, maybe in Painter 7...
Thanks again, Jinny.
Tom
KSperling
I think if you take a look at my previous message it might clear up the
confusion.
It's a matter of making a mask/selection in the original image and using the
Patterned Pen, masked variant of the Pens Category to paint (including all the
steps to create a pattern of course). Choose Brushes palette: Variant menu:
Restore Default Variant to make sure the brush has its original settings.
Sometimes using Painter you think something is complex and convoluted when it
is really simple ;-)
Karen Sperling
Editor/Publisher
Artistry Painter 6 Tutorial CD's
http://www.artistrymag.com
<<Karen,
Tom Shermer
thanks for the help! Your method did work for me. You and
Jinny got me all straightened out. I think I figured out my major
understanding problem (which was about selections); I've just
posted another message in this thread detailing how I think
it works. Thanks again,
Tom
P.S. I had your book for Painter 4, but never figured out the CD--
was it just a Mac CD? I'm a PC-head...
KSperling
Glad I could help.
As for my book CD, the publisher did bungle it for windows, but apparently if
you copy files to your hard disk and deselect read only you can open them. I'm
not a windows expert, so I'm not sure of the exact terminology. Hope you know
what I mean.
Karen Sperling
Editor/Publisher
Artistry Painter Tutorials CDs
http://www.artistrymag.com
Tom Shermer
(1) When you check out a pattern from a pattern library,
the mask information *does* come with it. To see the
the mask (as a selection), choose "Select>Show Marquee"
and then "Select>Reselect". (seems arcane to me...)
(2) The "Pattern Menu>Add Image To Library" will do
the same as "Capture Pattern" except that it uses the
entire active file as the image, instead of the active file
clipped to the last selection's bounding box. So I can
now make patterns for the pattern pen that have a
border when used without the mask.
Of course, this begs the question, "Why are 'Add Image
to Library' and 'Capture Pattern' named so differently
when they do almost the same thing?" :o)
Tom
Jinny Brown
Comments inserted below....
KSperling wrote:
>
> Jinny,
> I always find it is most helpful if we all use the same terminology.
> It's the Patterned Pen, masked variant of the Pens category I was describing.
I couldn't agree more, and that's what I **try** to do, though there are
times when I fail to. :o(
"... the Patterned Pen, masked variant of the Pens category..." ????
When I look in Painter, what I see that comes the closest to this
description is the Pen brush, Pattern Pen, Masked variant. That must be
what you mean. It's not one that I've used, for some unknown reason..
since I really like the Pattern Pens. Thanks for bringing it to my
attention as I was somewhat misguided in my earlier responses. (Sorry.)
Doing a brief test using this Pen variant with some patterns I created
resulted in some surprises. Some of them painted as if I'd created a
mask for the pattern.. which I didn't. On checking the Patterns, those
were ones with areas of black within the pattern that painted as
transparent areas. What's puzzling me is how this Pen variant knows to
paint a mask when I didn't make one.
> <<Tom, I gather that you're trying to create a Pattern that you can use with
> the Pattern Pens set to Mask with Pattern?
>
> If so, and I'm not sure this is what you want:
>
> First create your your Pattern. For instance, paint a small grouping of
> simple flowers with space between the flowers. Make a selection of what
> you've painted
> In the Patterns menu, choose Capture Pattern and give it
> a descriptive name. Now your new Pattern is in the current Patterns library.
>
> Use the Pen, Pattern Pen variant set to Pattern with Mask and paint
> using the Pattern you just made. It will paint a string of flower groups
> with space between them (transparent areas between the flowers because
> that's how you created it). >>
>
> So far so good.
Not really. <G> I misunderstood the Pen variant and thought it was
another one ("Tom, I gather that you're trying to create a Pattern that
you can use with the Pattern Pens set to Mask with Pattern?")
> <<The new Pattern will behave just as any other Pattern when you choose
> either Pattern, Pattern with Mask, or Pattern with Opacity.>>
>
> This wasn't what I experienced. The Patterned Pen, masked variant of the Pens
> category is the only one that masks out the areas that are masked in the
> original image.
What I should have said much more clearly was that this new Pattern
paints the same, using the Pen brush Pattern Pen variant as any other
Pattern would with the Method set to either Pattern, Pattern with Mask,
or Pattern with Opacity. In other words, with the Method set to Pattern
it paints a solid patterned stroke, with the Method set to Pattern with
Mask, it paints showing transparent areas (if any are in the pattern),
with the Method set to Pattern with Opacity, it paints using the current
color and opacity from the active pattern.. or that's what seems to be
happening. Is that what you find as well?
> <<If a Pattern
> has transparent areas, it will paint with transparent areas so that if
> you paint this kind of Pattern over a solid color, you'll see that the
> solid color shows through the transparent areas of the Pattern. A
> Pattern that has no transparent areas in it will paint a solid swash and
> cover anything that's below it. >>
> That is if the transparent areas were masked in the original image.
As mentioned above, some of the patterns I created were not (by me)
created with a Mask.. in fact, I am not sure how that would be done
unless as I described in my earlier message.. by painting, making a
selection of the painted area, then capturing that selection as a
pattern.
All of the patterns I've made in the past were made from a rectangular
or square selection.. nothing intricate.. so I would not have expected
them to include transparent areas when painted with the Pen brush
Pattern with Mask variant. Hmmm... (Not that I object in the least..
just would like to understand how it happened.)
> <<You can't make a Mask for the Canvas, only for a Layer or Shape that's
> been Committed to an Image Layer. The Canvas always remains below the
> Layers or Shapes and can't be moved above them. When you select the
> Canvas and click with the Layer Adjuster tool, the selection's contents
> are lifted to a Layer and the Canvas remains where it was and is now
> blank.>>
>
> Sure you can have masks and selections in the canvas.
Yeah.. of course we can.. That's not what I meant.. and what I meant and
said were confusing.. and could better have been ... not said. <G> What
I was attempting to say is that the Canvas doesn't have a Mask, the way
a Layer does.. found in the Masks list when that Layer is highlighted in
the Layers list.... And, to make a Mask for the Canvas, like the Layers
have, one would need to select it and lift it to a Layer.
Just for an experiment, I created a New Mask on the Canvas, then painted
with the Pattern Pen set to Dab Type: Rendered, Stroke Type Single,
Method: Buildup, Subcategory Soft Variable Buildup, and Source: Pattern
As Opacity. Then clicked the Load Selection button. Interesting! I ended
up with some intricate selection areas that would probably not have been
so easy to create otherwise. Thanks Karen for nudging me to try new
things. :O)
Feel free to correct me any time! I appreciate any knowledge you share
with us and am always open to learning new things.. and/or any of the
"right" ways to do things.
Hope you're having a great day! :o)
Jinny Brown
http://www.pixelalley.com
_________________________
> Karen Sperling
Jinny Brown
It seems that there are more things I need to learn about the Pattern
Pen and its variants/methods/method subcategories. Read the
correspendence with Karen Sperling and maybe that will help clarify some
things.. and if we continue the thread, even more clarification.. as I'm
learning too. :o)
<SNIP>
Jinny Brown
Thanks for continuing this thread with us. I don't have time today to
follow up on doing all the experiments needed to "get it" but I'll come
back to it later when there's more time.
Jinny :o)
________________
Tom Shermer
thanks for the response. I do understand what you mean, but sadly,
that disk long ago passed into oblivion. I was just curious about it.
It turns out that the news server I was using hasn't been getting your
posts to this thread (beyond the first one) and I was surprised to
find Jinny responding to one of your posts that had never shown
up...I've added another server to try to make sure I don't miss
anything.
I'm currently working on a web page to try to summarize what I've
found out about working with patterns. It's mainly about the stuff
on the Patterns Menu but if I finish that (it's going slowly--my job
has this habit of getting in the way of the important stuff :o) ) I may
add what I've gleaned from your discussion with Jinny about the
pattern pen variants. I'll post the URL when I get the page up.
Tom