dead pine trees in Michigan
on_be...@yahoo.com
I don't quite have a whole forest by myself, but I have around 1.5
acres of mixed pines and hardwoods on which the pine trees have been
taking quite a hit. I haven't brought a biologist out but see
significant signs of insect boring. This seems to be true of woods in
the surrounding area as well... our area is mixed farmland and woods.
As someone who would like to maintain my woods as forest, but don't
want to be the neighborhood fire hazzard, what should I do as a
responsible land owner? I'd like to come at this from the green
perspective of keeping nutrients in play for the next generation of
trees and adding as little C to the air as possible.
1) have the trees hauled away
2) cut them up and let them lie
3) throw them in the chipper and try to compost them
4) install a pellet stove and use the wood as fuel
5) leave them where they lie
6) ...
Thanks for your advice.
Chris
(9 miles east of Lake Michigan)
Don Staples
news:ba140b11-9c88-4e6c...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Any of the above will work, but, have you had the source of the death
identified? Bark beetles? Root damage? Finding out might prevent future
loss.
symplastless
>
> I don't quite have a whole forest by myself, but I have around 1.5
> acres of mixed pines and hardwoods on which the pine trees have been
> taking quite a hit. I haven't brought a biologist out but see
> significant signs of insect boring.
Chris
Usually they aim for symplastless wood and may as well stay in the
boundaries of CODIT. Often tree parts decline from other issues and then
the borers come as part of the clean-up crew and gets the blame for the
decline of the organ of the tree.
This seems to be true of woods in
> the surrounding area as well... our area is mixed farmland and woods.
>
> As someone who would like to maintain my woods as forest, but don't
> want to be the neighborhood fire hazzard, what should I do as a
> responsible land owner?
Giving fallen symplastless trees soil contact will greatly reduce the fire
risk as the wood becomes soil wood and takes on the characteristics of a
sponge. At that time you would have created nurse logs that will be a water
reservoir for trees doing dry times thus increasing the health of the
system. Keeping brush back from structures would be the place to start.
The brush, what is left after most tree farming operations is the fuel to
address. Also tree farming changes the micro climate of the area to the
favor of fire. Snags (branchless tree trunks at least 20' tall) would
provide requirements for many wildlife and other living associates of your
trees. Remember you said you would like to manage as a forest. Forest
represent all of the ecological stages of trees. Your issue of fire is a
valid one. Again by cutting the wood (cellulose mostly) about 4' long and
giving it soil cantact you will address a good bit. I would not suggest
felling all of the standing symplastless trees. Brush piles for wildlife
would be one option as well. Here is a starter on addressing the log to
reduce fire topic. Any information you could provide me on the topic would
be great to add to the websites. Also the nurse logs should be 4' or
longer. To give a tree soil contact the 4' sections may work best. I read
a article by a Congress woman who introduced the National Forest Protection
And Restoration Act addressing the distance from a structure to carry out
fire risk reduction (FRR). I will try to find that doc and get back to you.
I will try to remeber to find that paper.
I'd like to come at this from the green
> perspective of keeping nutrients in play for the next generation of
> trees and adding as little C to the air as possible.
By giving the fallen trees soil contact you are providing nutrients to the
soil like cellulose. And as far as that goes, elements like calcium and
other essential elements would be recycled (returned) to the soil for the
symplast maintaining part of the system. New soil would be formed. The end
product of the tree system (humic acids as well as new soil).
Chris:
here are some interesting docs on the topic.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/hardtoget/jk-79html/index.html
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/hardtoget/jk-64-html/index.html
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/hardtoget/ntb182/index.html
here are a list of articles to take into consideration.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/hardtoget/index.html
I also took many peer reviewed published docs and developed a section
addressing logging from a tree biological standpoint.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/SOUND/
While the latter may bother some here, they are still facts that require
being addressed in order to make sound decisions.
I think your questions are good ones. Its great that you would like to
create forest conditions on you property containing trees rather than tree
farm it. It sounds like a reasonable request. Forests are endangered in
the USA. Tree farming dictates most areas containing trees.
I hope this information helps. hey, its a start.
--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
symplastless
"Don Staples" <dsta...@livingston.net> wrote in message
news:4JSdnSKsHvQ0bm3anZ2dnUVZ_ournZ2d@telecomsupplyinc...
Sorry to interrupt but you say prevent a future loss? A tree within a
forest, which has declined, then borers, then symplastless is no loss. Its
a gain of that ecological stage of a tree which is just as important as a
tree maintaining a healthy symplast. See, in a forest there is no waste.
By addressing a symplastless tree as a loss, your are claiming it is waste.
It just is not waste. There is no waste in a forest. Each ecological stage
of a tree has value and has a function in the over all health of the system,
trees and their associates. That's like saying the roots are more important
then the crown of a tree. Its just not so. I thought you knew that stuff
to be honest.
symplastless
"symplastless" <sympla...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:e6Cdndd7KfCug2Ha...@comcast.com...
>
>Here is a starter on addressing the log to reduce fire topic.
Sorry about the poor grammar. I forgot the link for the fire issue and one
set of points to take note.
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman/nfpra/2000/fire-00.html
This is just one groups comments. What are others? I am sure they are
there!
Larry Caldwell
@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, on_be...@yahoo.com (on_belay616
@yahoo.com) says...
You don't say how large the trees are. If you are having a bark beetle
infestation, a rule of thumb is to not leave anything over 4" in
diameter, though you need to get it out of the woods quickly to do any
good. A year after the tree dies, all the beetles will have moved on to
green trees. If you have any stands that are overly dense (competition
suppressed trees) you can improve stand health by thinning the less
vigorous trees. Given adequate moisture, pine trees can often encase
bark beetles in pitch and fight off an infestation. If your trees are
young and dying, think about killing out any grass in the root zone.
Grass is a major competitor for moisture and nutrients.
The nutrients (N,P,K,S) in trees are all concentrated in the cambium
layer, and in the leaves/needles and growing buds. Except for
accidental inclusions, the trunk of the tree is almost all carbohydrate
(cellulose and lignin) and only of interest to termites and fungi.
Trees are amazingly efficient at recycling nutrients.
Snags provide habitat for wildlife, particularly woodpeckers, and small
birds that nest in cavities excavated by woodpeckers.
You cannot use trees as fuel for pellet stoves. They need a factory
processed pellet, or corn. The way corn prices are going, burning corn
is no longer the cheap proposition it once was.
It doesn't matter if you burn the trees, chip them, or leave them. The
carbon will all end up back in the atmosphere anyway. Contrary to what
elementary school teachers might think, trees have no net effect on the
carbon cycle. All the carbon came out of the atmosphere in the first
place. If you want to reduce atmospheric carbon, you have to quit
burning fossil fuels. If you use the trees to manufacture durable wood
products, you can keep some of their carbon out of the atmosphere for a
few decades.
Wood chips make good landscaping mulch, though the decay process
consumes quite a bit of nitrogen.
--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.
symplastless
"Larry Caldwell" <firstnamel...@peaksky.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.226636114...@news.peaksky.com...
> Wood chips make good landscaping mulch, though the decay process
> consumes quite a bit of nitrogen.
Larry
Wood chips would be best if composted for at least a year before used. The
older the better. The reason is that when you chip a symplast maintaining
branch you smear the contents, such as, protoplasm, of the parenchyma cell,
all over the place. This can and does attract undesirables that than can
and do, do nasty things to trees below as well as above ground. They are
the ones that attack defenseless cells. Dr. Shigo's (mycologist) concern
was the link to diseases. Also when using fresh chips near a structure you
will greatly reduce the spread of artillery fungus. Until the symplast has
died and contents digested you will chance artillery fungus as well as
diseases that can compromised the health of the symplast..
What would be nice, is that someone for sponsor the research for optimum
fertility levels for trees. No one has done the work. In an attempt to see
what was different in the soil in old growth compared to urban Eastern
Hemlock Tree, we tested for many available essential elements such as N,P,K
and acid soluble essential elements.
Actually pH is very big.
I address mulch here:
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/M/mulch.html
I can discuss my findings if someone is interested. I have to get back to
my home work.
Some interesting articles written by Dr. Alex L. Shigo. He addresses such
topic as soil chemistry, rhizosphere, chemistry and stuff. Thought you
would enjoy reading them.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/index.html
symplastless
>
> "Larry Caldwell" <firstnamel...@peaksky.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.226636114...@news.peaksky.com...
>> Wood chips make good landscaping mulch, though the decay process
>> consumes quite a bit of nitrogen.
>
> will greatly reduce the spread of artillery fungus.
This is a bad statement. Sorry. I meant to say the longer the chips
compost, the less likely you are to get artillery fungus.
Larry Caldwell
sympla...@comcast.net (symplastless) says...
> Wood chips would be best if composted for at least a year before used. The
> older the better. The reason is that when you chip a symplast maintaining
> branch you smear the contents, such as, protoplasm, of the parenchyma cell,
> all over the place. This can and does attract undesirables that than can
> and do, do nasty things to trees below as well as above ground. They are
> the ones that attack defenseless cells. Dr. Shigo's (mycologist) concern
> was the link to diseases. Also when using fresh chips near a structure you
> will greatly reduce the spread of artillery fungus. Until the symplast has
> died and contents digested you will chance artillery fungus as well as
> diseases that can compromised the health of the symplast..
I think that is a function of the rest of the ecosystem. Here on the
west coast, artillery fungus is not a problem. Perhaps our dry summers
limit the spread. However, chips will mildew if they are spread too
thick. 2 or 3 inches seems to be safe enough. Any thicker and the
bottom will start to mildew.
I recently took delivery of about 40 cubic yards of chips from the power
company, who were clearing branches around power lines on my road. The
pile is fresh right now, but will sour pretty quickly if I don't get the
chips spread in the landscaping. Of interest, I put several truckloads
of bark dust on that spot about 10 years ago. After I spread the bark
dust, I had a fascinating fruiting of slime mold in the residual bark
dust. The fruiting completely covered ground irregularities, and
crawled several inches up twigs. I took pictures, which are still on
film. I should scan and label them.
symplastless
Sour? Please explain. They should compost for at least a year unless you
would like to facilitate diseases.
--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Forester & Tree Expert
D. Staples
> --
> Sincerely,
> John A. Keslick, Jr.
> http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
> and www.treedictionary.com
> Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
> Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
> us that we are not the boss.
>
insist on attempting goals that are so beyond your reach?
Larry Caldwell
sympla...@comcast.net (symplastless) says...
> Sour? Please explain. They should compost for at least a year unless you
> would like to facilitate diseases.
You can't compost organic matter by piling it up. Composting is an
aerobic digestion process, that requires addition of amendments,
including missing nutrients, and periodic turning to oxygenate the
compost. Left in a heap, the pH of chips will drop like a rock, as
anaerobic fermentation gets going. Instead of ending up with a sweet,
biologically active compost, you end up with a steaming pile of acid
that is hostile to most forms of life, with most of the nitrates leached
out instead of incorporated.
I also think you are being a little superstitious. Here on the left
coast, one of the ways of dealing with slash is to chip it and blow it
right back on the ground it grew on. I haven't heard of any problems as
long as the chips are spread thinly on the ground. A thick enough layer
of mulch will suppress most vegetation, and it does absorb atmospheric
nitrogen that falls in rain.
symplastless
I do not believe that at all. Can you produce a doc published in
phytopathology or something backing you ideas? Wood chips and leaves
compost very well in piles. Fresh chips have protoplasm smeared all over
the place and that is a situation that can incite disease as micros that
attract defenseless parenchyma cells are attracted.
can you get a letter from a mycologist backing your thoughts? What can
cause a disease?
Anyway, fresh chips can alos cause artillery fungus.
--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
D. Staples
"symplastless" <sympla...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:DKqdndpoI6x0vZ3V...@comcast.com...
> Consulting Buttercup
Larry Caldwell
sympla...@comcast.net (symplastless) says...
> can you get a letter from a mycologist backing your thoughts?
I AM a mycologist. I am familiar with the fruiting fungi of this
region. I also have some interesting experiments in progress that
involve inoculating tree seedling roots with mycorrhizal spawn. What
would you like to know?
symplastless
> In article <DKqdndpoI6x0vZ3V...@comcast.com>,
> sympla...@comcast.net (symplastless) says...
>
>> can you get a letter from a mycologist backing your thoughts?
>
> I AM a mycologist. I am familiar with the fruiting fungi of this
> region. I also have some interesting experiments in progress that
> involve inoculating tree seedling roots with mycorrhizal spawn. What
> would you like to know?
>
I do not need to know anything. I already have obtained lucid instructions
on composting and the relationship of fresh chips. We use material that is
at least two years old. I must admit I do need to start to use more eco-art
nurse logs in the landscape. In other words, mulch comes in different
gradations.
Thanks for offering you help.
Don Staples
>
> "Larry Caldwell" <firstnamel...@peaksky.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.2269e497e...@news.peaksky.com...
>> In article <DKqdndpoI6x0vZ3V...@comcast.com>,
>> sympla...@comcast.net (symplastless) says...
>>
>>> can you get a letter from a mycologist backing your thoughts?
>>
>> I AM a mycologist. I am familiar with the fruiting fungi of this
>> region. I also have some interesting experiments in progress that
>> involve inoculating tree seedling roots with mycorrhizal spawn. What
>> would you like to know?
>>
>
> I do not need to know anything. I already have obtained lucid
> instructions on composting and the relationship of fresh chips. We use
> material that is at least two years old. I must admit I do need to start
> to use more eco-art nurse logs in the landscape. In other words, mulch
> comes in different gradations.
>
> Thanks for offering you help.
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
> John A. Keslick, Jr.
> http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
> and www.treedictionary.com
> Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
> Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
> us that we are not the boss.
>
>
symplastless
> and an arrogant fraud at that.
>
>
Just because I do not endorse your treatments you call "restoration" which
is just cutting "all" the wood out of once fertile forest, does not make me
a fraud.
I use my studies which were facilitated my a US FOREST SERVICE researcher
who rewrote the books on tree decay as well as many of the treatments I do
endorse, to help people make decisions based on an thorough understanding of
tree biology. Trees and their associates worldwide find themselves in
trouble due to decisions made out of the ignorance of tree biology. As far
as wood product quality goes, the quality of the product is decided when the
wood is symplast maintaining as an organ of the tree. It would be very
difficult to understand wood product decay if you only look at the 2x4. I
do not claim to be a wood product expert though I do have an understanding
of the quality determined when a tree. I do not claim that removing the
wood from a person's property would be considered restoration. You do.
Although many problems result from a communication problem between
researchers and practicing foresters, I communicate well with researchers.
My professor published many books on the topic which were in many languages,
including but not limited to, Spanish, Italian, German. He taught tree
biology in many countries. Are you claiming all the people that studied
tree biology do not have an understanding of tree biology? I have studied
as well as taught tree biology. One example is listed in Dr. Shigos CD set.
there is a picture of me teaching tree biology. The picture can be found
here http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/hardtoget/index.html
"Communication of Knowledge and Needs Between Forest Researchers and
Practicing Foresters'. I thought that would be a good place for my picture.
You constantly claim that I am a fraud. I claim to have a understanding of
tree biology. I claim that tree biology would be required when making
decisions on tree farming or forest health issues. I claim that I did what
I say I did here: http://home.ccil.org/~treeman/educat.html . I claim that
these are true issues with trees worldwide.
Unhealthy Trees from the Nursery / Improper Planting
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/T/tree_planting.html
Improper Mulching -
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/M/mulch.html
Improper Pruning
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/tree_pruning
Improper Fertilization (See A Touch of Chemistry)
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/CHEM.html
Tree Farming and Related Problems
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/SOUND/
Troubles in the Rhizosphere
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/RHIZO.html
With my background in teaching and studying tree biology that I am a
consulting tree biologist.
I do not claim to be the last word on any topic. I state that a person
should not believe a word I say but believe it because they see it for
themselves.
Now, back to fraud.
After reviewing your website I conclude several things.
1. You claim to be a consulting forester, yet, your link on your page "what
is a consulting forester" is dead. Just what are you claiming to be?
http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/forestry/staples.htm
2. You claim all wood should be removed from a given site to succeed in
"restoration"
http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/salvage.htm How do you define
"restoration"?
3. management http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/management.htm
"Management Plans. Basic forest management begins when you look at a tract
and say, "I can do something with that!"."
I must suggest that the first thing to do is try to understand the
ecological stages of trees and the role that these stages play in overall
system (trees and associates) vitality. I have done some research on just
that. I searched through Peer reviewed published data to understand just
what that tract is. I took this information that I found to be important
and wrote a paper on the topic of just what the functions of the ecological
stages of trees might be in this tract.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/SOUND/soundscience/index.html . I
tend to agree with the information the authors presented in their docs.
4. http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/appraise.htm "Both Timber
and Land appraisals are necessary at some point in your management of
property, it is used to establish the values for tax purposes, values for
estate disbursement, or for simply knowing what you have as an investment."
Knowing what you have? Would it not be nice to understand what you have
with an understanding of tree biology? How else would you know what you
have? I think the only thing you mean in this statement is the "board
feet". Which is fine but there is a difference between tree anatomy and
wood anatomy.
The only problem I can see in your claims is the missing understanding of
tree biology.
Now please explain how I am a fraud and please define what "A consulting
forester is" on your website so people can understand what you claim to be.
I am not against tree farming but I must insist decisions should be made
with a thorough understanding of tree biology in mind and not just board
foot as you website clearly suggest.
Remember, you came out and suggested to people I am a fraud.
I never called you a fraud but do believe you should define what you are on
your website - by you.
--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
D. Staples
>
> "Don Staples" <dsta...@livingston.net> wrote in message
> news:9oedndnyad2viJ_VnZ2dnUVZ_uKpnZ2d@telecomsupplyinc...
>
> --
> Sincerely,
> John A. Keslick, Jr.
> Consulting Buttercup
> http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
> and www.treedictionary.com
> Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
> Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
> us that we are not the boss.
>
One picture of you ogling a girl does not a teacher make. Nor does your
lack of education allow you to be a teacher. You are a fraud, trying for an
identity.
symplastless
You sound very confused. Why not attack somebody else?
Your very poor grammar and poorly define terms leaves much confusion.
--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
"D. Staples" <fores...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:prednb1dlIaSiZnVnZ2dnUVZ_umlnZ2d@telecomsupplyinc...
symplastless
"D. Staples" <fores...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:prednb1dlIaSiZnVnZ2dnUVZ_umlnZ2d@telecomsupplyinc...
>
> news:EI-dnXMxGvYJLZ_V...@comcast.com...
>>
>> "Don Staples" <dsta...@livingston.net> wrote in message
>> news:9oedndnyad2viJ_VnZ2dnUVZ_uKpnZ2d@telecomsupplyinc...
>>
> Crap cut.
>
Improper Pruning
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/tree_pruning
Now, back to fraud.
--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
Bob Weinberger
SNIP
> Your very poor grammar and poorly define terms leaves much confusion.
\................!/ irony meter
Bob Weinberger La Grande, OR
Don Staples
>
> "D. Staples" <fores...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:prednb1dlIaSiZnVnZ2dnUVZ_umlnZ2d@telecomsupplyinc...
>>
>> "symplastless" <sympla...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:EI-dnXMxGvYJLZ_V...@comcast.com...
>>>
>>> "Don Staples" <dsta...@livingston.net> wrote in message
>>> news:9oedndnyad2viJ_VnZ2dnUVZ_uKpnZ2d@telecomsupplyinc...
>>>
>> Crap cut.
> Sincerely,
> John A. Keslick, Jr.
> Consulting Buttercup
> http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
> and www.treedictionary.com
> Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
> Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
> us
> that we are not the boss.
>
>
Show us one degree from an accredited college, Buttercup.
symplastless
>>
> Show us one degree from an accredited college, Buttercup.
Improper Pruning
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/tree_pruning
Now, back to fraud.
--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
D. Staples
symplastless
> Show us a degree, buttercup.
Don - Show me your data to show that removing all wood from a site is called
restoration. Per your claim on your website.
As to others on this list I am sorry for the intrusion. I hope I have not
offended anyone. I will move on out of this news group.
CHOW!