Don Staples
symplastless
Hope you and your family are well. I have a question. Per your web page
here: http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/appraise.htm What if I
could prove to you that I could use a SHIGOMETER to detect trees - canopy
trees with least vitality and understory trees with lowest vitality. The
thought from the researchers from the US Forest Service is that this process
could be used to detect which trees to cut in tree farming. I.e., is either
is an attempt to create more course woody debris or for harvest. What do
you think I could charge to use SHIGOMETER on property to help make
decisions? I would bet, me and you could figure out the method of using the
wire probes to detect quality of wood for product? Also understand that
many US FOREST SERVICE people and former people such a Dr. Alex L. Shigo
have many other suggestions in tree farming. I.e., if the tree farmer wants
to work with forest ecologist and tree biologist to mimic as close as
possible to the way things go in a forest. The unique benefits or functions
of course woody debris would not be limited to Forest containing Douglas Fur
trees. But here are two docs about conifer forest.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/hardtoget/index.html and
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/hardtoget/jk-64-html/index.html
Shigo would also remember wildlife. Some flush cuts with wound dressings
applied would stimulate decay (rot) and make a cavity for small wildlife.
Not good for the tree but good for small wildlife.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/HTMLFILES/wildlife%20and%20trees.html
I have a picture of a bird here.
See first picture of cavity on page:
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/tree_pruning/index.html
Shigo makes valid points about wildlife trees:
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/hardtoget/ntb182/index.html
Here is another good thought by a "thinking" person.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/hardtoget/ntb191/index.html
I am going to go to a 1 day workshop with some of Alex L. Shigo's collogues.
Examining roots, mycorrhizae and soil life. I am going to see what is out
there in products that may help trees. Dr. Shigo always said proper
fertilization could be very helpful for urban trees. However he pointed out
that no one had optimum fertility levels at all. That's why I did the soil
research I did. I am not a soil scientist. The pH in the rhizoplane is
important but no one can test it.
Check out this:
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/RHIZO.html
and
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/CHEM.html
I think me and you could make honest profits working with the SHIGOMETER.
He always believed in honest profits for an honest service.
The meter can detect the wood that appears normal to the eye that has been
chemically altered and the site where carpenter ants and termitres go.
Thanks for reading this.
Just for your interest, here is a great doc:
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/hardtoget/ntb29/index.html The
basic for understanding wood products.
--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Bob Weinberger
"symplastless" <sympla...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:zpOdndQzU43j3JnV...@comcast.com...
> Don
>
> Hope you and your family are well. I have a question. Per your web page
> here: http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/appraise.htm What if I
> could prove to you that I could use a SHIGOMETER to detect trees - canopy
> trees with least vitality and understory trees with lowest vitality. The
> thought from the researchers from the US Forest Service is that this
> process could be used to detect which trees to cut in tree farming.
The Shigometer has been in use for about 30 years and in that time has been
studied extensively to maximize its utility. Why do you think no one is
doing exactly what you propose ?
Let's see you propose investing ~ $ 100 in a decent cordless drill + ~$1700
in a machine might marginally improve the forester's decision on which
trees to remove and requires drilling every tree to be evaluated to a depth
of 8-12". Lets assume an average of 10 min/ tree evaluated ( drilling time
+ measurement time + time to disinfect the drill bit and probe to avoid any
possible spread of pathogens + time to select and move to the next tree to
be evaluated). lets further assume that the forester is correct 80% of the
time in picking the least vigorous trees in the stand for evaluation. So in
an 8hr work day with no interuptions, the forester would be able to select ~
38 trees for removal (60*8/10)*0.8)) while getting at best a 20%
improvement in the selection process. Without the Shigometer he would take
at most ~ 4 min /tree, or mark about 120 trees/day with the risk that 24
of those trees - although likely to be less vigorous than the average- are
not among the least vigorous.. So to get a maybe 20% improvement in the
selection, you need to sacrifice 60% in productivity, invest ~ $1800, incur
maintenance costs and battery costs for the equipment, carry around alot of
additional weight, and leave holes in a significant number of your leave
trees which will lead to at least some degrade (even if minor) of the lumber
that can be cut out of them.
Yeah, sounds like a real can't miss proposal 8 > (
Bob Weinberger La Grande, OR
Don Staples
news:zpOdndQzU43j3JnV...@comcast.com...
> Don
Crap cut
> Sincerely,
> John A. Keslick, Jr.
> Consulting Buttercup
> http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
> and www.treedictionary.com
> Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
> Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
> us that we are not the boss.
>
You are an obsessive/compulsive fraud, Buttercup, show us a degree, rather
than one day feel good Garden Club presentations.
symplastless
"Don Staples" <dsta...@livingston.net> wrote in message
news:YfadnUgi7eV_LpnVnZ2dnUVZ_r6rnZ2d@telecomsupplyinc...
Don
Thanks for reading this.
--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
symplastless
"Bob Weinberger" <bobs...@verizon.invalid.net> wrote in message
news:N0ZMj.6328$eg2.6320@trndny06...
>
> "symplastless" <sympla...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:zpOdndQzU43j3JnV...@comcast.com...
>> Don
>>
>> Hope you and your family are well. I have a question. Per your web page
>> here: http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/Services/appraise.htm What if I
>> could prove to you that I could use a SHIGOMETER to detect trees - canopy
>> trees with least vitality and understory trees with lowest vitality. The
>> thought from the researchers from the US Forest Service is that this
>> process could be used to detect which trees to cut in tree farming.
>
> The Shigometer has been in use for about 30 years and in that time has
> been studied extensively to maximize its utility. Why do you think no one
> is doing exactly what you propose ?
>
> Let's see you propose investing ~ $ 100 in a decent cordless drill +
> ~$1700 in a machine might marginally improve the forester's decision on
> which trees to remove and requires drilling every tree to be evaluated to
> a depth of 8-12".
No, you are wrong. the CER would be the factor and not the test you claim.
Lets assume an average of 10 min/ tree evaluated ( drilling time
> + measurement time + time to disinfect the drill bit and probe to avoid
> any possible spread of pathogens + time to select and move to the next
> tree to be evaluated). lets further assume that the forester is correct
> 80% of the time in picking the least vigorous trees in the stand for
> evaluation. So in an 8hr work day with no interuptions, the forester
> would be able to select ~ 38 trees for removal (60*8/10)*0.8)) while
> getting at best a 20% improvement in the selection process. Without the
> Shigometer he would take at most ~ 4 min /tree, or mark about 120
> trees/day with the risk that 24 of those trees - although likely to be
> less vigorous than the average- are not among the least vigorous.. So to
> get a maybe 20% improvement in the selection, you need to sacrifice 60% in
> productivity, invest ~ $1800, incur maintenance costs and battery costs
> for the equipment, carry around alot of additional weight, and leave holes
> in a significant number of your leave trees which will lead to at least
> some degrade (even if minor) of the lumber that can be cut out of them.
> Yeah, sounds like a real can't miss proposal 8 > (
>
> Bob Weinberger La Grande, OR
It holds up in court.
Bob Weinberger
> No, you are wrong. the CER would be the factor and not the test you
> claim.
O.K. What does the test involve? How long does it take/tree? What
percentage of the total number of trees in the stand need to be tested in
order to determine which trees should be removed in a thinning or "stand
improvement cut"?
> It holds up in court.
What relavence does that statement have with regard to your proposed
application for standard timber management on a "tree farm"?
>
> --
> Sincerely,
> John A. Keslick, Jr.
> Consulting Tree Biologist
> http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
> and www.treedictionary.com
> Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
> Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding
> us that we are not the boss.
>
Bob Weinberger La Grande, Or
D. Staples
>
> "Don Staples" <dsta...@livingston.net> wrote in message
> news:YfadnUgi7eV_LpnVnZ2dnUVZ_r6rnZ2d@telecomsupplyinc...
>> "symplastless" <sympla...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:zpOdndQzU43j3JnV...@comcast.com...
>>> Don
>>
>> Crap cut
>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> John A. Keslick, Jr.
>>> Consulting Buttercup
>>> http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
>>> and www.treedictionary.com
>>> Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
>>> Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep
>>> reminding us that we are not the boss.
>>>
>> You are an obsessive/compulsive fraud, Buttercup, show us a degree,
>> rather than one day feel good Garden Club presentations.
> I thought you would avoid the issue.
No, I avoid talking with a fool.
symplastless
>
> "symplastless" <sympla...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:576dnVQ4Gbz3xZjV...@comcast.com...
>
>> No, you are wrong. the CER would be the factor and not the test you
>> claim.
>
> O.K. What does the test involve? How long does it take/tree? What
> percentage of the total number of trees in the stand need to be tested in
> order to determine which trees should be removed in a thinning or "stand
> improvement cut"?
Ok. You inventory the trees. Canopy trees of one species will differ from
suppressed trees of same species. Of the canopy trees, species specific,
you use the needle probe to penetrate the cambium zone. Two readings per
tree at about breast height. Add the two and divide by two and you have the
CER for that specific tree. Do this for 20 trees of the same species and
canopy trees. Now you will have your mean for that species. Go to the next
tree of same specifics and it will be above or below mean. Add these
readings into you mean. So on and so forth. Other issues must be
considered as well.
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/hardtoget/index.html
A good person to talk to would be the researchers in the USFS that are still
alive who have done work with the CER. Thousands and thousands of trees
tested. Not my work.
Within the species there will be two changes. First when the cambial zone
opens like an accordion. The growing cambial zone is multi-layered cells.
When growing you will get one reading and when in the resting stage, you
will get another as the Cambium Zone closes like an accordion.
Two readings - Growing period - the Cambium zone is opened like an
accordion. Less Resistance. Resting stage the accordion closes. More
resistance.
The thought was that trees with less vitality would be cut.
> What relavence does that statement have with regard to your proposed
> application for standard timber management on a "tree farm"?
Sorry. Also with removing trees care must be taken to create or allow as
many nurse logs as possible. These will increase the health of your trees
as they move to the sponge stage and retain moisture for the system during
drought. Drought is too often blamed for mortality while little has been
done to address the requirement of trees to have different ecological stages
for health. Not my work but work of researchers:
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/hardtoget/jk-79html/index.html
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/hardtoget/jk-64-html/index.html
Bob Weinberger
While you may or may not have a reasonable understanding of "tree
biology"( yet to be demonstrated in any comprehensive manner), you have just
amply demonstrated that you are clueless when it comes to the operational
aspects of forest management and forest economics ( And, no despite what you
may think, that doesn't necessarily just apply to timber management and
"tree farms").