Wine Tasters Can't Duplicate
Ed Rasimus
yesterday:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703683804574533840282653628.html
Apparently an objective research project trying to determine the
validity of numerical ratings and things as simple as gold medal
awards. Some of the comments on things like all of those exotic
tastes that the raters rave about--scientifically the base is that you
can only taste around four "flavors" in a wine, but top raters often
identify five, six or more. Notably the same wine tasted by two
skilled tasters had each of them identifying a half-dozen distinct
flavors but there were no common tastes identified by both!
It makes me feel a bit better about my raspberry, strawberry,
blueberry, chocolate, smoke and vanilla palette! Oh, with some notes
of citrus, grapefruit, leather, tobacco, cigar box, merde, old
overcoat, cardboard, wet dog and cat pee...
I think the making of much ado over something has been unmasked at
least a bit. What say you?
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
www.thundertales.blogspot.com
www.thunderchief.org
JT
"Ed Rasimus" <rasimus...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:5op8g5pt6uhbrqmmg...@4ax.com...
>I thought this was a fascinating item in the Wall Street Journal
> yesterday:
>
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703683804574533840282653628.html
>
> blueberry, chocolate, smoke and vanilla palette! Oh, with some notes
> of citrus, grapefruit, leather, tobacco, cigar box, merde, old
> overcoat, cardboard, wet dog and cat pee...
>
> I think the making of much ado over something has been unmasked at
> least a bit. What say you?
Very interesting, I always feel a bit of a dickhead when someone mentions 6
or 7 aromas on a fine claret. I struggle with 3 or 4, on a good day with a
following wind., after 35 years of wine tasting and drinking!
JT from a very wet and windy UK
DaleW
> "Ed Rasimus" <rasimusSPAML...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:5op8g5pt6uhbrqmmg...@4ax.com...
>
> >I thought this was a fascinating item in the Wall Street Journal
> > yesterday:
>
>
> > It makes me feel a bit better about my raspberry, strawberry,
> > blueberry, chocolate, smoke and vanilla palette! Oh, with some notes
> > of citrus, grapefruit, leather, tobacco, cigar box, merde, old
> > overcoat, cardboard, wet dog and cat pee...
>
> > I think the making of much ado over something has been unmasked at
> > least a bit. What say you?
>
> Very interesting, I always feel a bit of a dickhead when someone mentions 6
> or 7 aromas on a fine claret. I struggle with 3 or 4, on a good day with a
> following wind., after 35 years of wine tasting and drinking!
>
> JT from a very wet and windy UK
There's not a lot surprising there.
The most surprising thing is that Parker would use the EWS tasting as
proof of his consistency. Knowing that he had previously ranked every
wine 95 or above, a 3 point variation is scarcely impressive. He
didn't mention he was 0 for 15 at identifying them single blind.
As to # of aromas- there is one fellow in NYC who starts naming
multiple aromas the second his nose hovers over glass. He probably
names 20 descriptors per tasting note. Let's just say I'm extremely
skeptical. But one yahoo's not really an argument for having a limit
on descriptors. The WSJ said " even flavor-trained professionals
cannot reliably identify more than three or four components in a
mixture, although wine critics regularly report tasting six or more."
Really? I have a few problems with their extrapolations from this:
1) first of all, I know several people (mostly women come to mind) who
can taste a dish and name the spices involved with great accuracy,
sometimes 5 or more. What is "reliably"? I think I'm at best an
average taster physiologically, yet when I made a chicken dish with
lemon, garlic, rosemary, butter, and leeks I thought I could taste all
the components- was I deluding myself?
2) more importantly, wine does not contain plums, currants, earth, or
cedar. A Graves does not contain tobacco, a Pauillac contains no lead
pencil, etc. We are trying to project our personal associations onto
taste and aroma, and everyone's associations are different. My
cigarbox might be Lipton's cedar. I can't say that I ever worry about
whether any of the descriptors I use match someone else's, I'd be more
concerned if my structural judgements were far different from the
norm. There are a few people I've tasted with a lot who I have some
grip on their tastes, and I guess their finding tobacco might be a
slight nudge for me to buy a wine, but far less than their structural
analysis and overall judgement. But in general I'd never think much
about actual descriptors in others' notes, and don't expect mine to be
of any value to anyone but me. If I taste the same wine twice, I
usually have some of the same descriptors, and some different ones.
Probably some bottle variation, but Dale variation is more likely the
explanation.
3) Lastly, it's not clear from cited notes that someone said they
smelled all of those things at once. If I wrote down plums, cedar,
tobacco, earth on first opening a mature claret, and later wrote black
currants, cigarbox, fresh herbs, smoke, did I break the 4 aroma rule?
Lawrence Leichtman
<38e4dee2-75da-4d6b...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
DaleW <Dwm...@aol.com> wrote:
You smell what you smell regardless of preconceived concepts of what a
wine is supposed to smell like. I don't know what a lead pencil is
supposed to smell like. I have sniffed pencils all of the time trying to
get something or just pencil lead...nothing. Now cedar shavings yes and
pencil wood yes. I smell a lot of flowers a vegetables to get ideas
about what I am smelling. I have smelled tobacco in many pinot noirs and
was told by a wine expert that shouldn't be there. Sometimes it smells
like cigarettes that have been sitting a few days. This is not
necessarily appealing. Nose and palate are so subjective that it is
always a matter of weather you like it or not. I try to keep nose and
palate descriptions simple, 2-5 descriptors max.
st.helier
>
> Very interesting, I always feel a bit of a dickhead when someone mentions
> 6 or 7 aromas on a fine claret. I struggle with 3 or 4, on a good day with
>
> JT from a very wet and windy UK
Hey JT
Are we having a small wager on the outcome of Saturday's game at Twickenham?
AB
Steve Slatcher
independently coming to the same conclusions - by reading TNs on the
same wine from professional tasters, listening to opinions from
experienced amateurs, and comparing medals awarded at competitions. Oh,
and, not least, rereading my own very different TNs for the same wine.
Bottle variation? No - taster variation in most cases. And the sooner
we acknowledge and embrace that fact the better. It's nothing to feel
embarrassed or upset about - it's how we humans are.
--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher
Martin Field
"DaleW" <Dwm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:38e4dee2-75da-4d6b...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
Dale - I'm with you. 1. No you're not deluding yourself - I had a Thai
curry recently and as well as overall impressions, at the same and at
different times I could distinctly detect a multiplicity of aromas and
tastes: acidity, tartness, sweetness, lemon grass, ginger, basil, shallot,
garlic, coconut, chili, fresh turmeric, tomato etc. (I gather that what most
of us call taste is actually olfactory anyway). 2. Yes most wine descriptors
are associative and while there is a common language of descriptors we'll
sometimes disagree with fellow tasters but acknowledge "I don't quite see
that but I think I know what you're trying to describe. Or "yes, now that
you mention it I do smell Turkish Delight..." 3. When I'm taking notes, a
wine on opening will offer various aromas/flavours, then as it warms /
breathes and as my mouth and nose become attuned to what it offers, I detect
more and different characters - usually exceeding the magic limit of four...
One only has to read of the great "noses" in the perfume industry (Google
"Luca Turin: for some lucid and brilliant writing on this) to know that they
can detect myriad natural and synthetic aromas in perfume blends. (More than
four anyway.)
However, I am not suggesting here that listing a whack of detected aromas is
helpful to readers or listeners, I also tend to keep my descriptors in a
note to just a few.
Cheers!
Martin
JT
>> JT from a very wet and windy UK
>
> Hey JT
>
> Are we having a small wager on the outcome of Saturday's game at
> Twickenham?
>
As a man from the other side of Offas dyke, I am neutral. England have been
crap, headless chickens come to mind. The NZ lineout has been a bit iffy,
but with Carter on song I see no problem.
Wales Argies could be a stunner, but they have relaid the pitch!! and with
all the rain........................
OT
Craggy Range sluicings 2008 Pinot Noir has had rave rev iews and I have just
bought 6, go with the Xmas turkey.
Hope your are well, Solihull slurpers still going strong
JT
IanH
On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 06:51:21 +1300, "st.helier"
<alpha...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>Are we having a small wager on the outcome of Saturday's game at Twickenham?
I bet �100 that there'll be a result, either a draw or one sude will
win.
What interests me more is whether I'll be able to afford to come to
New Zealand in 2011 to fulfil my promise to taste the Central Otago
Pinot Noirs when the vines are beyond being infants.
And whether you and Kathryn will be able to come with us.
--
All the best
Fatty from Forges
JT
> What interests me more is whether I'll be able to afford to come to
> New Zealand in 2011 to fulfil my promise to taste the Central Otago
> Pinot Noirs when the vines are beyond being infants.
We have pencilled in 2011 to visit our son in Queenstown and do a bit of
Northland.
OT Otago pinots are excellent and we have had some super lunches in and
around Bannockburn.
JT
IanH
On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:09:46 -0000, "JT" <jt...@blueyonder.co.uk>
>We have pencilled in 2011 to visit our son in Queenstown and do a bit of
>Northland.
It would be an amazing coincidence if we were there at the same time.
At present our plans are to spend Christmas with my brother in the UK,
pop briefly back to attend to various boring details in France
(probably flying) and then leave from the Uk in Early January (2012,
of course)
>OT Otago pinots are excellent and we have had some super lunches in and
>around Bannockburn.
I will be fascinated to see how they've evolved.
st.helier
>
>>We have pencilled in 2011 to visit our son in Queenstown and do a bit of
>>Northland.
>
> It would be an amazing coincidence if we were there at the same time.
> At present our plans are to spend Christmas with my brother in the UK,
> pop briefly back to attend to various boring details in France
> (probably flying) and then leave from the Uk in Early January (2012,
> of course)
>
>>OT Otago pinots are excellent and we have had some super lunches in and
>>around Bannockburn.
>
> I will be fascinated to see how they've evolved.
Ian, just remember, the entire month of January is summer holiday time;
school is out and locals hit the road to the popular holiday spots (think
July in France)
Notwithstanding, I would love to spend time with you - both in Central
Otago, and, of course, Northland, where I now reside.
We shall correspond directly in due course
Cheers
AB
Joseph Coulter
<notar...@ozemail.com> wrote:
>
>"DaleW" <Dwm...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:38e4dee2-75da-4d6b...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>On Nov 19, 7:21 am, "JT" <j...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> "Ed Rasimus" <rasimusSPAML...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:5op8g5pt6uhbrqmmg...@4ax.com...
>>
>Dale - I'm with you. 1. No you're not deluding yourself - I had a Thai
>curry recently and as well as overall impressions, at the same and at
>different times I could distinctly detect a multiplicity of aromas and
>tastes: acidity, tartness, sweetness, lemon grass, ginger, basil, shallot,
>garlic, coconut, chili, fresh turmeric, tomato etc. (I gather that what most
>of us call taste is actual
>
>One only has to read of the great "noses" in the perfume industry (Google
>"Luca Turin: for some lucid and brilliant writing on this) to know that they
>can detect myriad natural and synthetic aromas in perfume blends. (More than
>four anyway.)
>
>However, I am not suggesting here that listing a whack of detected aromas is
>helpful to readers or listeners, I also tend to keep my descriptors in a
>note to just a few.
>
>Cheers!
>
>Martin
I think that there is a difference in edetecting the aroma of basil
for instance in Thai food and an esoteric descriptor such as leather
in a wine. In the first case you are detecting what you identify, in
the other you are creating a simile to help describe a wine. One
descriptor is "real" the other is "synthetic".
Joseph Coulter
Joseph Coulter Cruises and Vacations
www.josephcoulter.com
Joseph Coulter
Do I detect a movement for a massive offline down under? 2 years to
prepare! The gauntlet is thrown. What a pleasure it would be. I am
still in your debt milord and owe you a tour of the okefenokee at the
least. I know that business (dread business, the curse of the drinking
class) is abominable these days for most of us, but hopefully 2 years
will bring a new sense of adventure, or what the hell!
Martin Field
"Joseph Coulter" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:gia6h5hfu7s18tguf...@4ax.com...
But some of the things we smell and taste in wine can be pinned down in the
bouquet or taste as derived from actual components or winemaking processes.-
eg, alcohol, rasinins (dried sweet grapes) in a fortified muscat, smoky
savour (charred barrels), wood, vanilla (from oak vanillin), butteriness -
from diacetyl via malolactic fermentation, citrus - citric acid?, acids,
sugars, yeast/products ie baked bread, (sauvignon blanc characteristic), VA
(acetic acid), acetaldehyde (sherry like oxidation) sulphur, TCA
(corkiness), malic (ie "apple") acid etc. etc.
I suggest that your esoteric descriptions are not synthetic as such but
rather attempts by tasters to use associative, analogous terms to best
describe the complex aromas and flavours they find in a wine.
For instance, if someone says they find grean pea or green pepper aspects in
a sauvignon blanc is this synthetic? (they all contain methoxypyrazines).
Same applies if someone calls a wooded chardonnay soft and buttery (buttery
from from malolactic fermentation) or like buttered popcorn. Cinema popcorn
is often flavoured with artificial butter compounds ie with the diacetyl
mentioned above.
The point I was trying to make with the Thai food example is that I believe
that people can taste and describe quite a number of components in wine.
Whether these descriptions are actually identifiable, derived from actual
processes or components or associative is beside the point in my opinion.
The descriptors are merely an attempt to communicate the taster's
impressions.
Some of these associations are helpful to others - some not.
Mind you, when I hear wine descriptors like feminine, alluring, dark and
mysterious etc. I want to puke...
Cheers!
Martin
Martin Field
But some of the things we smell and taste in wine can be pinned down in the
bouquet or taste as derived from actual components or winemaking processes.-
eg, alcohol, rasinins (dried sweet grapes) in a fortified muscat, smoky
savour (charred barrels), wood, vanilla (from oak vanillin), butteriness -
from diacetyl via malolactic fermentation, citrus - citric acid?, acids,
sugars, yeast/products ie baked bread, METHOXYPYRAZINES (sauvignon blanc
characteristic), VA
(acetic acid), acetaldehyde (sherry like oxidation) sulphur, TCA
(corkiness), malic (ie "apple") acid etc. etc.
"Martin Field" <notar...@ozemail.com> wrote in message
news:D-adnUGL5_BZ3I7W...@westnet.com.au...
IanH
On Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:58:55 +1300, "st.helier"
<alpha...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>> It would be an amazing coincidence if we were there at the same time.
>> At present our plans are to spend Christmas with my brother in the UK,
>> pop briefly back to attend to various boring details in France
>> (probably flying) and then leave from the Uk in Early January (2012,
>> of course)
>Ian, just remember, the entire month of January is summer holiday time;
>school is out and locals hit the road to the popular holiday spots (think
>July in France)
>
>Notwithstanding, I would love to spend time with you - both in Central
>Otago, and, of course, Northland, where I now reside.
This is something of a dilemma. I take your point abou tthe holiday
period. When we were there (Dec) the weather wasn't fantastic, unlike
the welcome, but we never had the slightest difficulty in finding
accommodation. I'd imagne that it would be harder in January, but by
no means impossible without booking. Does that sound about right to
you? At the moment, our plans are entirely flexible of course.
My thought was that because we've rather got into the habit of
spending Christmas with the family, it would be good to be able to
continue to do so. Not only is it Christmas, of course, but the New
Year and our wedding anniversary (which will be our 44th at the end of
Dec 2011). But it's not essential by any manner of means.
Tell you what. In principle we are free as air between the end of
November and the middle of February. We'd probably want to spend
around a month away from home, taking maybe 2-3 days to travel in each
direction, to avoid having to sit 23 hours on the trot in a plane.
What would YOU advise?
>We shall correspond directly in due course
Indeed we shall! However, I quite like the idea of at least _starting_
the plans here, just in case anyone (Like Joseph) wants to join in
too, So I hope you don't mind me talking about it in advance here.
st.helier
Hi Ian (and JT and Joe Coulter and any one else interested!!!!!)
Thought I would start a new thread!
While the whole month of January is regarded as holiday month in NZ (meaning
school holidays) the busiest period is generally the three week period
commencing 24 December through to (about) 10 January.
However, you are correct - visiting "touristy" regions (and Central Otago
and Northland both fit into that category!) is by no means impossible - with
a little planning and advance bookings - certainly no "off-peak"
accommodation though!
And you are also correct - while December is regarded as the first month of
summer, things (weather) start getting more settled as summer advances.
From my perspective, with so much advance notice, I can be very flexible
too - and would have no trouble having the best part of a week in Central -
and the same to show you "my place" up North.
So, an arrival some time around the 7/8/9/10 January 2012 could definitely
be OK with me.
Regards
AB
IanH
On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:01:04 +1300, "st.helier"
<alpha...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
>> Indeed we shall! However, I quite like the idea of at least _starting_
>> the plans here, just in case anyone (Like Joseph) wants to join in
>> too, So I hope you don't mind me talking about it in advance here.
>
>
>Hi Ian (and JT and Joe Coulter and any one else interested!!!!!)
>
>Thought I would start a new thread!
An excellent and public spirited gesture.
>While the whole month of January is regarded as holiday month in NZ (meaning
>school holidays) the busiest period is generally the three week period
>commencing 24 December through to (about) 10 January.
Right you are, that's noted.
>However, you are correct - visiting "touristy" regions (and Central Otago
>and Northland both fit into that category!) is by no means impossible - with
>a little planning and advance bookings - certainly no "off-peak"
>accommodation though!
Well, with a phone and a guide book that's perfectly possible, I know
that with ou B&B, we can often fit someone in even in the busy period,
if they phone a few days before hand, and we're amongst the most
heavily advance booked B&Bs in the region.
>From my perspective, with so much advance notice, I can be very flexible
>too - and would have no trouble having the best part of a week in Central -
>and the same to show you "my place" up North.
BRILLIANT.
>So, an arrival some time around the 7/8/9/10 January 2012 could definitely be OK with me.
That timing would be just about perfect. We would probably look at
stopping off somewhere for a couple of days on the way out, so that we
can break the journey (I'm too old to do 23 odd hours on the trot) and
on the way back, I'd try to plan to visit a very good foodieFfrench
friend who's got a "maison secondaire" in Bangkok, to be near his son
and daughter-in-law.
"I love it when a plan comes together".