What to eat with PN?
C.L.
look at the wine list before the menu. We pick a bottle and THEN find
something to eat with it.
I'm getting pretty good at finding suitable pairings, but one wine is
still a sort of no-man's-land for me and it happens to be one of my
favorite.
I love Pinot Noir and have had it quite a few times in restaurants.
Last night with duck which is an obvious choice. Other times with
lamb and "Melting Pot" fondue (a fondue chain here in the states).
What are some other possiblities with dishes you frequently run across
in restaurants or that you make at home that a Pinot Noir friendly?
I've got about 10 bottles of the stuff from various regions but can
never think of anything to cook that will show it off.
Ken Blake
> What are some other possiblities with dishes you frequently run
across
> in restaurants or that you make at home that a Pinot Noir
friendly?
> I've got about 10 bottles of the stuff from various regions but
can
> never think of anything to cook that will show it off.
Salmon.
--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup
Ed Rasimus
>In a3662045.03072...@posting.google.com, C.L. wrote:
>
>
>> What are some other possiblities with dishes you frequently run
>across
>> in restaurants or that you make at home that a Pinot Noir
>friendly?
>> I've got about 10 bottles of the stuff from various regions but
>can
>> never think of anything to cook that will show it off.
>
>
>Salmon.
We've gone round and round in the group regarding what goes with
salmon, and I'm firmly in the PN camp. It might be that I'm prejudiced
against whites, although a buttery Chardonnay with a salmon sauced
with Hollandaise will work for me. I don't have familiarity with the
Austrians that are recommended and don't get many Alsace wines
available, even in the larger emporia in Colorado. White Burgundy will
do it as well.
Now, for what I serve with PN--I find it goes with duck (as stated) as
well as with holiday traditional turkey. I drink it with veal, with
lamb only occasionally, and with white sauced pasta dishes. In fact,
I've come to like PN with almost anything other than hearty beef. Only
problem is that the PN's I like are too expensive to drink
daily--that's when I fall back on my other all-purpose red wine,
zinfandel.
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038
Mark Lipton
"C.L." wrote:
> What are some other possiblities with dishes you frequently run across
> in restaurants or that you make at home that a Pinot Noir friendly?
> I've got about 10 bottles of the stuff from various regions but can
> never think of anything to cook that will show it off.
Hmmm... I'd serve it with most lighter game (rabbit, squab,even younger
goose) and mushrooms, as well as the classic Coq au Vin. Bigger Pinots,
especially those from CA, will stand up to red meat, too. If you like
lamb or venison, try them with a big CA Pinot.
HTH
Mark Lipton
Ken Blake
> "Ken Blake" <kbl...@this.is.an.invalid.domain.com> wrote:
>
>> In a3662045.03072...@posting.google.com, C.L.
wrote:
>>
>>
>>> What are some other possiblities with dishes you frequently
run
>>> across in restaurants or that you make at home that a Pinot
Noir
>>> friendly? I've got about 10 bottles of the stuff from various
>>> regions but can never think of anything to cook that will
show it
>>> off.
>>
>>
>> Salmon.
>
> We've gone round and round in the group regarding what goes
with
> salmon, and I'm firmly in the PN camp. It might be that I'm
prejudiced
> against whites, although a buttery Chardonnay with a salmon
sauced
> with Hollandaise will work for me.
Even without the hollandaise, I can drink and like a big
chardonnay with salmon. But I much prefer the PN.
Tom S
"Ed Rasimus" <ras...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:gv4mhv8oiqb9n9q4j...@4ax.com...
> We've gone round and round in the group regarding what goes with
> salmon, and I'm firmly in the PN camp. It might be that I'm prejudiced
> against whites, although a buttery Chardonnay with a salmon sauced
> with Hollandaise will work for me.
Hollandaise with salmon? IMO that's overdoing it a bit. I like this
version of tartar sauce much better with salmon, halibut, sturgeon, and
trout:
Finely minced fresh dill, Italian parsley and scallions (the entire
scallion) in about equal proportions,
A dash of white pepper,
Lemon juice (not too much),
Sweet pickle relish (to offset the lemon),
Lawry's seasoned salt (not too much),
Plain yoghurt and mayonnaise (in about equal proportions - maybe a little
heavier toward the mayonnaise),
Capers, well rinsed and drained.
The amounts are all to taste, but I try to keep the solids content pretty
high before adding the yoghurt and mayo, or the stuff gets too runny.
Sometimes I add a finely minced Habanero pepper (sans seeds) for a little
extra _zip_!
This stuff is a PIA to prepare because of all the washing, drying and
chopping, but it can be made in a big batch, sans mayo and yoghurt, and
frozen in aliquots. That makes it much handier to prepare at last minute,
or when fresh ingredients are out of season.
I call this concoction "Linda's Tartar Sauce", after a friend's ex-wife who
showed me how to make it. The Habaneros were my idea. She sometimes put in
horseradish, but I've never made it that way.
Serve this over a nice slab of BBQed salmon, with side dishes of fettucini
Alfredo and some steamed broccoli or asparagus, and wash it down with a big,
fat, rich, buttery, oaky, toasty California Chardonnay. Mmmmmm! :^)
Tom S
D. Gerasimatos
C.L. <bonest...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Obviously, when some, if not most, of us go to a new restaurant, we
>look at the wine list before the menu. We pick a bottle and THEN find
>something to eat with it.
I read the wine list to identify interesting wines, Then I look at the
menu to see what looks good. I then try to reconcile the two, asking the
sommelier for advice if it's not obvious. I think trying to match a
particular wine to the menu is a recipe for disaster. It just might not
happen.
>I love Pinot Noir and have had it quite a few times in restaurants.
>Last night with duck which is an obvious choice. Other times with
>lamb and "Melting Pot" fondue (a fondue chain here in the states).
It can be good with lamb, but I usually want something more acidic with
lamb. I think pinot noir goes well with pork and with gamey birds like
squab. For beef I usually choose cabernet/bordeaux or merlot. For pork
I choose pinot noir. For chicken I choose white whine or maybe a Rhone
style wine. Those are just generalities, of course. I've had white wine
with beef and so on.
Dimitri
Ian Hoare
I must preface my reply by saying that the only Pinot Noir wines that I
know well are from Burgundy. I've had one from California, and tasted a few
from Central Otago (with which I was generally under-impressed) but
couldn't claim to know them well enough to recommend pairings. So, on with
my recommendations for pairings for red Burgundies.
le/on 20 Jul 2003 11:52:33 -0700, tu disais/you said:-
>What are some other possiblities with dishes you frequently run across
>in restaurants or that you make at home that a Pinot Noir friendly?
>I've got about 10 bottles of the stuff from various regions but can
>never think of anything to cook that will show it off.
Two obvious choices are Coq au Vin and Boeuf Bourguignon. Similar dishes in
which tough meat is first of all tenderised by being marinated in a young
burgundy, and then browned in oil/butter and finally simmered very gently
till tender, served garnished with brown glazed tiny onions and sautéed
button mushrooms, browned lardons (1/4"x1/4"x1" "sticks" of bacon) and
fried bread triangles. Another great classic from the area is Oeufs en
Meurette, eggs poached in a bourguignon style red wine sauce.
Personally I find lamb or mutton a bad match with burgundy, preferring
bordeaux/bergerac. If your Pinot Noir is old, (if not to say geriatric)
then a plain roast chicken (not one of those overblown hormone stuffed
industrially fabricated balloons sold under that name throughout the
States, but a real farm chicken that has actually scratched around for its
_own_ food, eating a mixture of grubs, seeds and all sorts) takes a lot of
beating. I guess a (barely) acceptable substitute would be a Cornish Game
Hen, which at least does taste of something agreeable.
Lighter Burgundies designed for relatively quick drinking (Tom Reddick can
tell you which decent growers are available in the States) go very well
with feathered game, such as pheasant, partridge and of course duck & goose
both wild and domestic.
Bigger heavier Burgundies, "Le Chambertin" (Leroy or Rousseau make good
examples) would be the archetype, needs a much heftier meat. A top class
roast beef, for example - NOT hormone fed barley beef, but an animal
exclusively grass fed, and of decent age, properly hung for 2-3 weeks,
would be a marriage made in heaven. I tend to steer clear of furred game
with Burgundy, finding that too often they're a but TOO gamey, but if you
have some Red deer, that also would be excellent. As for the most subtle
red burgundies like a Le Musigny "vieille vignes" you really want to keep
the meat in the background, so a plain grilled steak would do very well.
Hope that helps a bit.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
Sometimes oi just sits and thinks
Sometimes oi just sits.
Kirk-O-Scottland
Dale Williams
In article <i2dnhvc23kucrpoor...@4ax.com>, Ian Hoare
<ianhoare...@wanadoo.fr> wrote a lot of insightful stuff I agree with,
including:
>
>Two obvious choices are Coq au Vin and Boeuf Bourguignon.
&
If your Pinot Noir is old, (if not to say geriatric)
>then a plain GOOD roast chicken
&
>Lighter Burgundies go very well with feathered game, such as pheasant,
partridge and of course duck & goose both wild and domestic. (let's don't
forget grouse, another good Burg combo)
>
As to the rest, I don't DISagree with either of the following, but would
qualify slightly:
>Personally I find lamb or mutton a bad match with burgundy, preferring
>bordeaux/bergerac.
I'd agree, though I think bad match might overstate the case, just that it's
not an ideal match.
> Le Musigny "vieille vignes" you really want to keep
>the meat in the background, so a plain grilled steak would do very well.
I guess with a younger GC a steak would be OK, but I think I'd still prefer a
Cabernet based wine with steak. I'd go more for a simple preparation of wild
duck(domestic duck is more for lighter Burgs like Volnay, IMHO).
Most of these recommendations could be transferred to American pinots. A more
delicate PN would correspond to Ian's suggestions for lighter Burgs, and a big
hulking RRV pinot would do better with a lot of red meat.
Of course, the problem with suggestions like this for making a mental list for
restaurants is the preparation. Inventive chefs mean one must be alert! :)
Dale
Dale Williams
Drop "damnspam" to reply
Roland Marandino
I love fruity Pinot Noirs with almost any salmon dish: grilled,
roasted, baked.....Give it a try.
Roland Marandino
http://www.tablewine.com
...where people discuss affordable wines
Dale Williams
writes:
>I'd serve it with most lighter game (rabbit, squab,even younger
>goose) and mushrooms,
Actually, can't believe I didn't mention mushrooms! Great combo with PN in a
lot of cases (cremini, cepes, oysters, etc), at least if presentation isn't too
outrageous. One of our fallback combos is mixed mushroom risotto and Burgundy
or OR PN.
Good catch, Mark.
Ed Rasimus
>Most of these recommendations could be transferred to American pinots. A more
>delicate PN would correspond to Ian's suggestions for lighter Burgs, and a big
>hulking RRV pinot would do better with a lot of red meat.
>
>Of course, the problem with suggestions like this for making a mental list for
>restaurants is the preparation. Inventive chefs mean one must be alert! :)
>
Your last sentence makes a point. I've occasionally found a good
restaurant with a great cellar that offers specific food/wine
recommendations. Uusally it's a place that's sophisticated enough to
offer a daily changing menu reflecting the vagaries of the seasonal
market. They then offer course-by-course match-ups of wine that really
works with the dish, often by the glass.
The times I've taken advantage of this method, I've usually come away
with a couple of vineyards, vintages and names scribbled on a napkin
that led me the next morning to an Internet search to direct order of
a case of this or that. Three rewards of the process that I can recall
were Gary Farrell for Pinot Noirs, Andrew Rich of Oregon for PNs and
Titus Vineyard of CA for Zin and it turned out some might good Cab.
Sauvignon and Cab Franc.
Of course there are also the tasting dinners that a lot of good
restaurants will sponsor in which a producer offers a sampling of
wares matched with a menu to spotlight the wines. That led me to a
long and expensive relationship with Ridge as well as an introduction
to Schug who makes some excellent Calif. PNs.
N8
4 teaspoons Quatre Epices, recipe follows
4 meaty lamb shanks, each about 1 pound; do not trim external fat
Sea salt
Freshly ground white pepper
1 cup Banylus wine, vin doux naturel from Provence, or Port
1 quart chicken stock
Garlic Confit:
4 plump, fresh heads garlic, separated into cloves, but not peeled
1 cup extra-virgin olive oil
Rub quatre epices all over the surface of the lamb shanks. Season with sea salt and white pepper. Stand the shanks, wider side down, narrow end up, in a large roasting pan. Place the pan in the center of the oven and roast, uncovered, for 1 hour.
Transfer the lamb to a platter and set aside.
Off the heat, deglaze the pan with wine, scraping up any cooked bits that may have stuck to the bottom of the pan. Return the lamb to the pan standing on end, wider side down. Add the stock, cover, and return to the oven. Braise, without disturbing the meat, until the meat is very tender and just beginning to fall off the bone, about 1 1/2 hours.
For the garlic confit: Place the garlic in a small saucepan and cover with the olive oil. Cook, uncovered at the barest simmer, over the lowest possible heat, until the garlic is soft and a small knife inserted into a clove, meets no resistance, 45 minutes to 1 hour.
Remove lamb from oven and place on a platter. Strain the juice through a fine mesh strainer into a gravy boat. Drain the garlic and serve with the lamb.
Quatre Epices:1 teaspoon allspice berries
1 teaspoon whole cloves
1 teaspoon freshly grated nutmeg
1 teaspoon cinnamonGrind the allpsice in a spice grinder. Grind the cloves in a spice grinder. Combine the spices in a small bowl and add grated nutmeg and ground cinnamon. Use immediately.
Mark Lipton
Dale Williams wrote:
Thanks, Dale. Being somewhat less carnivorous than you, I have spent some effort
finding (vegetarian) foods to accompany red wines. An interesting topic would be
to
break down the mushrooms that do/don't go well with Pinot Noir. I think that I
would
include most types of chanterelle in addition to those you've already mentioned,
but exclude portobello, enoki, straw, shi'itake and morel. Any thoughts?
Mark Lipton
Dale Williams
writes:
>Being somewhat less carnivorous than you, I have spent some effort
>finding (vegetarian) foods to accompany red wines. An interesting topic
>would be
>to
>break down the mushrooms that do/don't go well with Pinot Noir. I think that
>I
>would
>include most types of chanterelle in addition to those you've already
>mentioned,
>but exclude portobello, enoki, straw, shi'itake and morel. Any thoughts?
>
I'd disagree on last two. Morels in particular - to me creamed morels or morels
en croute call out for a fragrant (not big) Burgundy. And shiitakes match well
with PN, though maybe not as well as some others. Portobellos usually make me
reach for a cabernet or merlot based wine. Enokis and straw depend a lot on
presentation (true for everything of course), but instinctively I think more
about sparkling or characterful white (Loire Chenin Blanc or Kabinett
Riesling). Although I remember serving a dish for soy-braised enoki from the
Silver Palate New Basics book with a light Langhe, nice combo.
So, here's my fungi list (with usual disclaimers about preparation). As you can
see, PN is my fallback mushroom choice:
Deserves a 1er Cru Volnay from a top producer (Lafarge, d'Angerville- btw , I
just heard Jacques d'Angerville passed away- great winemaker, de Montille):
Morels
Deserves a good Burg or OR PN:
cremini, cepes/porcini, oysters,hen of the woods,shiitake, chanterelle, black
trumpet, matsutake
Go for the Bordeaux varietals:
portobello
Think white:
enoki, straw, and enyrgi (sp?)
Truffles, black or white:
Best nebbiolo based wine you can find, I find Barbaresco as a rule better than
Barolo for this match.
Not enough experience, need to experiment more:
chicken of the woods, white trumpet, bluefoot, huitalacoche(sp?)
Interested in others' opinions.
C.L.
> For PN or anything else: http://www.eatdrinkdine.com is a handy site!
It looks handy, and has a similar interface to Wine Spectator Online.
Only problem with both pairing guides is they are too vague. I mean
you put in red burg and pasta and you've got virtually every dish
under the sun!
Although I do like a certain amount of generality, that's a little too
much. On the other hand, the differetiations between chicken and farm
raised chicken and what the cow was fed before slaughter are important
I'm sure. But I think the subtle taste differences would be lost on
me at this time.
Just like I'm sure I could listen to a piece of music and understand
it on a deeper level than most, there are people in here that eat and
drink far beyond my comprehension. It's that balance of generality
and specificity that is hard to find.
Mark J Svereika
<mushroom & wine snipped>
: break down the mushrooms that do/don't go well with Pinot Noir. I think that I
: would
: include most types of chanterelle in addition to those you've already mentioned,
: but exclude portobello, enoki, straw, shi'itake and morel. Any thoughts?
Mark, exclude Portobello?? Have you ever had a grilled portobello
sandwhich? I think most pinots are very friendly with this hearty
mushroom, and possibly a lighter Burgundy (Beaune or Savigny) with morels,
but would *definately* agree with excluding the lighter-whiter musrooms,
and add oyster. What about boletas?
Mark S
Kirk-O-Scottland
news:a3662045.03072...@posting.google.com...
I'm studying the University Wine Course by Marian Baldy of University of
California - Chico, and Appendix C is an excellent guide for a slightly more
in-depth study of wine and food combinations. It's a little lengthy to get
into here though, but basically, she teaches concepts/ food chemistry, and
not a list of food and wine pairings. She points out that the concepts are
more important than lists because everyone's tastes are different; thus,
there are no real "right answers". A series of rules for specific dishes
and wines is good however if you stick to that list only, but that would
soon get boring. Except for me; I never tire of ribeyes, New York strips,
or tenderloins with cabernet sauvignon, and if the meat is not too grilled
or spicy, will have a pinot noir with those as well.
Mark Lipton
Dale Williams wrote:
> I'd disagree on last two. Morels in particular - to me creamed morels or morels
> en croute call out for a fragrant (not big) Burgundy.
OK. As I start drinking more aged Burgundy I will probably be able to appreciate
this point better. At the moment, I have found Cote-Rotie and Temperanillo to be
the best matches with them in various preparations.
> And shiitakes match well with PN, though maybe not as well as some others.
My comment stems from the delicacy of the flavor. My choice is a chilled sake or
lighter beer with them. A delicate white wine would go nicely, too, IMO.
> Portobellos usually make me reach for a cabernet or merlot based wine.
Or a Nebbiolo-based wine for me. Something with guts, to be sure.
> Enokis and straw depend a lot on
> presentation (true for everything of course), but instinctively I think more
> about sparkling or characterful white (Loire Chenin Blanc or Kabinett
> Riesling). Although I remember serving a dish for soy-braised enoki from the
> Silver Palate New Basics book with a light Langhe, nice combo.
Interesting. I think that it would also depend on the type of soy sauce used. To
me, a lighter Japanese soy is a completely different beast than a typical Chinese
dark soy (such as my usual standy, Pearl River Bridge). I'll have to do some
experiementation, clearly! ;-) I also have liked Pinot Gris and Viognier with
those types of mushroom, in keeping with your theme.
<SNIP interesting list>
Archived, Dale. I'll report back after some experimentation.
Mark Lipton
Mark Lipton
Mark J Svereika wrote:
Whassa boleta? Seriously, Mark, I've never had one to be able to make any comment.
As for portobello, to me it's too earthy for most Pinots, though I am willing to
concede that a bigger Burgundy (of the type that I have next to no experience with)
might suffice. I treat portobellos as I do red game meat: Rhone wine or Nebbiolo. I
will try Dale's suggestion of Bordeaux and see how that fares. Also, see my
comments to Dale re morels.
Mark Lipton
Dale Williams
writes:
>As I start drinking more aged Burgundy I will probably be able to appreciate
>this point better. At the moment, I have found Cote-Rotie and Temperanillo
>to be
>the best matches with them in various preparations.
>
Wow, must be well-aged C-R not to overwhelm. I find Volnays and Chambolles with
some age to be the best for my tastes
>> Portobellos usually make me reach for a cabernet or merlot based wine.
>
>Or a Nebbiolo-based wine for me. Something with guts, to be sure.
Exactly
>
>Interesting. I think that it would also depend on the type of soy sauce
>used. To
>me, a lighter Japanese soy is a completely different beast than a typical
>Chinese
>dark soy (such as my usual standy, Pearl River Bridge).
Have you tried the Kimlan soys from Taiwan? I preferred most to PRB. But the
special ones are a bit more expensive. I've heard Wanjashan is very good, but
haven't found it.
Best,
D. Gerasimatos
Kirk-O-Scottland <k...@kosiam.not> wrote:
>
>I'm studying the University Wine Course by Marian Baldy of University of
>California - Chico
Just a nit here, but there is no University of California campus in Chico.
Perhaps you meant California State University at Chico? The difference
is significant.
Dimitri
Ian Hoare
le/on 22 Jul 2003 07:05:19 -0700, tu disais/you said:-
>Although I do like a certain amount of generality, that's a little too
>much. On the other hand, the differetiations between chicken and farm
>raised chicken
Try the comparison one time, you'll see that both on texture and on flavour
the differences are neither subtle nor difficult to comprehend. I'd put it
- if you like music - like the difference between Bach played on the
harpsichord by Wanda Landowska and "Jesu, joy..." in a supermarket at
Christmas"
Bill Spohn
>harpsichord by Wanda Landowska
Ah yes - the 'Plucky Pole'.
Didn't know anyone else here liked harpsichord music and also knew Landowska!
Ian, you have hidden talents.
Ken Blake
news:20030722200728...@mb-m10.aol.com...
> Didn't know anyone else here liked harpsichord music and also
knew Landowska!
I love harpsichord music (I built and used to own a harpsichord),
but I don't like Landowska at all (actually it's mostly her
Pleyel harpsichord that I disliked).
Bill Spohn
>but I don't like Landowska at all (actually it's mostly her
>Pleyel harpsichord that I disliked
I prefer other makers such as Goff, myself, and particularly enjoy a 4 vol. set
with Laurence Boulay playing Couperin on several older instruments on Erato
(vinyl, of course;-)
Pinnock can pluck a mean string, too.
I would suggest a well aged Riesling as accompaniment.....
Ian Hoare
le/on 23 Jul 2003 00:07:28 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
I've been interested/passionate in/about early music (Bach is a touch
modern but I had to make allowances for the likely taste of my
correspondent) for more years than I choose to remember. Sang in an a
capella choir for ~20 years, doing among other delights the first
liturgical performance of Taverner's Missa Corona Spinea since the 16th C.
Mark J Svereika
: Whassa boleta?
A boleta is a wild mushroom (but be careful - there are poisionous
boleta's out there as well!) that for some odd reason would appear in our
family's backyard certain years. Interestingly, this was the same type of
mushroom my grandfather knew from the Old Country and so we harvested them
when they appeared. When cooked, it became slightly slimy but had a
pleasant earthy-field taste to it. I'd imagine a savignon blanc would do
it justice, but not a red wine (too delicate in flavor).
Seriously, Mark, I've never had one to be able to make any comment.
: As for portobello, to me it's too earthy for most Pinots, though I am willing to
: concede that a bigger Burgundy (of the type that I have next to no experience with)
: might suffice. I treat portobellos as I do red game meat: Rhone wine or Nebbiolo. I
: will try Dale's suggestion of Bordeaux and see how that fares. Also, see my
: comments to Dale re morels.
Yeah, I'd say both of your opinions on this are valid. I just like foods
that need an excuse to open a Burgundy :)
Mark S
Mike Tommasi
wrote:
>>Whassa boleta?
Cepes
Porcini
boletus edulis
Mike
Bill Spohn
>
>A boleta is a wild mushroom
Close.
A Boletus is a wild mushroom.
A boleta is a ticket to a bullfight.....
Bill Spohn
>liturgical performance of Taverner's Missa Corona Spinea since the 16th C.
Geez - I didn't know John was THAT old!
Bill (also an early music fan)
C.L.
> "Bill Spohn" <wsp...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20030722200728...@mb-m10.aol.com...
>
>
> > Didn't know anyone else here liked harpsichord music and also
> knew Landowska!
>
>
> I love harpsichord music (I built and used to own a harpsichord),
> but I don't like Landowska at all (actually it's mostly her
> Pleyel harpsichord that I disliked).
Harpsichord is for sissies. ;) I stick to the King of Instruments.
Bach is great, but soon sounds numb to my ears. I'm not saying
ANYTHING bad about the guy because he's a master and I've learned a
ton from playing his P&Fs, but there is much to be said for 20th
century music which seems to never get the respect it deserves.
Bill Spohn
Uh - clavichord....?
It takes pluck to be a harpsichord fan (from an early music T shirt)
>
>Bach is great, but soon sounds numb to my ears. I'm not saying
>ANYTHING bad about the guy because he's a master and I've learned a
>ton from playing his P&Fs, but there is much to be said for 20th
>century music which seems to never get the respect it deserves.
I think that 20th century composers get all the credit they deserve and then
some. Although I am partial to some modern classical/jazz, like Jarrett, if
they could only gag him while he played (a failing he shared with another great
20th century player but not composer, Gould)
Kirk-O-Scottland
news:bfk86s$1c3j$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
Dooh! Yes, you are correct.
Ian Hoare
le/on 23 Jul 2003 13:55:11 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>>doing among other delights the first
>>liturgical performance of Taverner's Missa Corona Spinea since the 16th C.
>
>Geez - I didn't know John was THAT old!
Speelong.... "The Whale" is by John Tavener.
WHAT a nice change for me!
I imagine there are more than a couple of us. There's a doctor from the
Midlands whose posts have made me suspect he shares our delight in
racketts, rebecs and shawms.
Ian Hoare
le/on 23 Jul 2003 07:08:27 -0700, tu disais/you said:-
>Harpsichord is for sissies. ;) I stick to the King of Instruments.
Nasty noisy vulgar things, though Rousseau's third isn't bad, Job has it's
moments and Plonc did a fair concerto.
I prefer organum.
Perotin for premier, say I.
That said, Jacquie & I went down the aisle to the Gigue Fugue when we got
married in '67. However we did treat ourselves to some proper music for the
service itself.
>ton from playing his P&Fs, but there is much to be said for 20th
>century music which seems to never get the respect it deserves.
Oh, I don't turn my nose up at Penderewcki or Szymanowski, and though they
don't _really_ count, I've been known to listen to Vaughan-Williams, Bartók
and Tippet! I've even sung some.
Wine Scribbler
find that Chinese crispy duck pancakes are a superb match.
--
A.R.B.
http://www.andys-scribblings.co.uk - free wine/drink newsletter
http://www.ukwinesonline.co.uk - wine/drink retailer directory
"Dale Williams" <dwm...@aol.comdamnspam> wrote in message
news:20030721125850...@mb-m29.aol.com...
> Hi Ian et al:
>
> In article <i2dnhvc23kucrpoor...@4ax.com>, Ian Hoare
> <ianhoare...@wanadoo.fr> wrote a lot of insightful stuff I agree
with,
> including:
>
> >
> >Two obvious choices are Coq au Vin and Boeuf Bourguignon.
> &
> If your Pinot Noir is old, (if not to say geriatric)
> >then a plain GOOD roast chicken
> &
> >Lighter Burgundies go very well with feathered game, such as pheasant,
> partridge and of course duck & goose both wild and domestic. (let's don't
> forget grouse, another good Burg combo)
> >
> As to the rest, I don't DISagree with either of the following, but would
> qualify slightly:
>
> >Personally I find lamb or mutton a bad match with burgundy, preferring
> >bordeaux/bergerac.
>
> I'd agree, though I think bad match might overstate the case, just that
it's
> not an ideal match.
>
> > Le Musigny "vieille vignes" you really want to keep
> >the meat in the background, so a plain grilled steak would do very well.
>
> I guess with a younger GC a steak would be OK, but I think I'd still
prefer a
> Cabernet based wine with steak. I'd go more for a simple preparation of
wild
> duck(domestic duck is more for lighter Burgs like Volnay, IMHO).
>
> Most of these recommendations could be transferred to American pinots. A
more
> delicate PN would correspond to Ian's suggestions for lighter Burgs, and a
big
> hulking RRV pinot would do better with a lot of red meat.
>
> Of course, the problem with suggestions like this for making a mental list
for
> restaurants is the preparation. Inventive chefs mean one must be alert!
:)
>
>
John Gunn
news:3f1e8...@news.syr.edu:
> Mark Lipton (lip...@purdue.edu) wrote:
>
>
>
>: Whassa boleta?
>
> A boleta is a wild mushroom (but be careful - there are poisionous
> boleta's out there as well!) that for some odd reason would appear in
> our family's backyard certain years. Interestingly, this was the same
> type of mushroom my grandfather knew from the Old Country and so we
> harvested them when they appeared. When cooked, it became slightly
> slimy but had a pleasant earthy-field taste to it. I'd imagine a
> savignon blanc would do it justice, but not a red wine (too delicate in
> flavor).
>
>
Boletus is a whole genus of fungi. The distinguishing feature of them is
that the underside of the cap does not have gills. Rather it has a spongy
consistency. But I was unaware that there were any species in the family
that were poison. My understanding is that once you find the spongy
underside the worst you would get is an upset stomach, just like morels and
false morels. Plus they are easy to identify.
They are quite common in the northwest. Some varieties run quite large.
I've harvested ones while hiking that required several gallon ziplock bags
to fit a single mushroom. If you get them while they are young I haven't
found them to be slimy. But then young is about the only way to go as they
get quite buggy.
John
Walter Moar
>
> Boletus is a whole genus of fungi. The distinguishing feature of them is
> that the underside of the cap does not have gills. Rather it has a spongy
> consistency. But I was unaware that there were any species in the family
> that were poison. My understanding is that once you find the spongy
> underside the worst you would get is an upset stomach, just like morels and
> false morels. Plus they are easy to identify.
For the record, false morels contain a poison called MMH and can be
deadly poisonous if eaten raw (or not cooked thoroughly). It's best
to learn to identify false morels (it isn't hard) and avoid them --
unless you're very confident in your cooking abilities.
Safety first :-)
-Walter
Mike Tommasi
If we wanted to abide by that rule, we could never eat tiramisu or
chocolate mousse...
I believe you are talking about giromitra esculenta. This is an
absolute culinary delight. Like a morrel but larger and with a large
hollow cavity, brain shaped. All it takes is a few minutes blanching
in boiling water and the toxins are 100% neutralized. Real morels have
the same toxin in lower quantity. After blanching giromitra, you can
cook them in a fry pan with butter.
Mike
Mark Lipton
Mike Tommasi wrote:
> >For the record, false morels contain a poison called MMH and can be
> >deadly poisonous if eaten raw (or not cooked thoroughly). It's best
> >to learn to identify false morels (it isn't hard) and avoid them --
> >unless you're very confident in your cooking abilities.
> >
> I believe you are talking about giromitra esculenta. This is an
> absolute culinary delight. Like a morrel but larger and with a large
> hollow cavity, brain shaped. All it takes is a few minutes blanching
> in boiling water and the toxins are 100% neutralized. Real morels have
> the same toxin in lower quantity. After blanching giromitra, you can
> cook them in a fry pan with butter.
Several different members of the genus gyromitra qualify as false morels, and
three that I know of (g. esculenta, g.ambigua and g. infula) are known to contain
the toxin gyromitrin. It does break down to MMH (monomethylhydrazine for the
interested), which does cause all sorts of havoc in the body -- in part by
suppressing the production of the active form of vitamin B-6 (leading to
neurotoxicity among other things). Mike, the reason blanching detoxifies them is
that MMH is volatile and water soluble. What I've read suggests that cooking is
not guaranteed to eliminate the MMH, however.
Thanks to all for the help with "boleta." I still feel unqualified to suggest a
wine pairing, but at least understand what we're dealing with now.
Mark Lipton
C.L.
> Nasty noisy vulgar things
An awfully stereotypical viewpoint. I would imagine you've been
exposed to players who haven't studied the art of registration.
Although a bunch of Baroque music sounds great on something less than
tutti (couperin for one), a huge amouth of the German and French
romantic music is quite ethereal at times. Check out Dupre and
Durufle.
> they
> don't _really_ count, I've been known to listen to Vaughan-Williams, Bartók
> and Tippet! I've even sung some.
They don't really count as what? 20th cent composer? They most
certainly do! Variations on a Theme of Thomas Tallis is an excellent
example of the evolution of 20th century harmony. Of course we're
getting WAY off track here but who cares. :)
Tom S
> >harpsichord by Wanda Landowska
>
> Ah yes - the 'Plucky Pole'.
>
> Didn't know anyone else here liked harpsichord music and also knew
Landowska!
I've never heard of Landowska, which isn't too surprising since I prefer pop
music, but I remember that Anthony Newman was quite good on the harpsichord,
playing JS Bach. Not too shabby on the pipe organ either. I have some
vinyl somewhere around here...
Tom S
Ian Hoare
le/on Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:09:17 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>mjsv...@newstand.syr.edu (Mark J Svereika) wrote in
>news:3f1e8...@news.syr.edu:
>
>> Mark Lipton (lip...@purdue.edu) wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>: Whassa boleta?
>>
>> A boleta is a wild mushroom (but be careful - there are poisionous
>> boleta's out there as well!)
None that I know of.
>Boletus is a whole genus of fungi.
There are a family of genera often called boleti. All with pores and a
central stipe. They include the true boletus, suillus, Krombholziella,
Xerocomus, Gyroporus and others.
> But I was unaware that there were any species in the family
>that were poison.
Well, poison is in the stomach of the desriber (to paraphrase!) Boletus
Satanas can make you pretty sick, though with a white cap and scarlet
pores, you've got to be pretty crass to confuse it with the brown cap and
pale pores of Boletus Edulis, the "Bordeaux Cepe". There's a couple with
bitter flesh that are harmless. I've never heard of anyone being killed by
eating a bad one.
> My understanding is that once you find the spongy underside the worst you would get is an upset stomach,
True
> just like morels and false morels.
Nope, the false morels or Helvella & Gyromitra families are toxic when raw,
though the Gyromitra esculenta (as the name implies) has often been eaten,
and apparently is harmless after boiling in a couple of changes of water.
However, your advice is unwise as deaths have occurred from them.
> Plus they are easy to identify.
Absolutely true.
>to fit a single mushroom. If you get them while they are young I haven't
>found them to be slimy. But then young is about the only way to go as they
>get quite buggy.
Sliminess is more a matter of which species, than youth. Boletus edulis is
almost never slimy, while the suillus family are all pretty slimy.
Another of my passions!!
Mark J Svereika
: Sliminess is more a matter of which species, than youth. Boletus edulis is
: almost never slimy, while the suillus family are all pretty slimy.
Interesting how this NWR topic is evolving :) Well Ian, this must be the
mushroom I am familiar with that grew in our backyard, under larch trees.
This definately had a slimy character to it, no matter how lightly it was
cooked.
: Another of my passions!!
Do you give fungi-hunting trips from your B&B? Hmmm...time to visit the
Massif Central :)!
Mark S
Ken Blake
news:82KTa.217$s23.33...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
> > Didn't know anyone else here liked harpsichord music and also
knew
> Landowska!
>
> I've never heard of Landowska,
You've never heard of Wanda Landowska, who married Howard Hughes,
then after his death married Henry Kissinger?
She's Wanda Hughes Kissinger now! ;-)
Ian Hoare
le/on 23 Jul 2003 21:33:12 -0700, tu disais/you said:-
>Ian Hoare <ianhoare...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:<c88thv0d5m4vsfedu...@4ax.com>...
>
>> Nasty noisy vulgar things
>
>An awfully stereotypical viewpoint. I would imagine you've been
>exposed to players who haven't studied the art of registration.
'Course I have. But they're still noisy vulgar things. The best executants
manage to tame the intrinsic vulgarity (;-)) that's all.
>romantic music is quite ethereal at times. Check out Dupre and
>Durufle.
OK, but not my favourites.
>> they
>> don't _really_ count, I've been known to listen to Vaughan-Williams, Bartók
>> and Tippet! I've even sung some.
>
>They don't really count as what? 20th cent composer?
Well, perhaps Bartók & Tippett do.
> They most certainly do!
Well, you know what I mean. Talking of 20th C music though, we had Strauss'
4 last songs sung by Barbara Frittoli on the Proms tonight. Good, with lots
of feeling, but her voice was a touch "edgy" compared with that wonderful
creaminess with which Kiri te Kanawa or Jessye Norman sing the pieces. The
playing was fabulous. That's really one of the masterpieces of the (very)
late 19th century. (Chuckle).
> Variations on a Theme of Thomas Tallis is an excellent example of the evolution of 20th century harmony.
Ah. One of my very favourite pieces of his. Though I'd not spit on the
Tallis original. Now _there'_ a polyphonist. Up with Bach, Josquin, Mozart
and Bartók.
>course we're getting WAY off track here but who cares. :)
I hope no one does, at least we're not slagging off each-other's countries.
Time to stop, it's ---________ ---_____ (just started at a cracking pace!)
Ian Hoare
le/on Thu, 24 Jul 2003 07:37:54 -0700, tu disais/you said:-
>"Tom S" <to...@spamlesspacbell.net> wrote in message
>news:82KTa.217$s23.33...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>
>> > Didn't know anyone else here liked harpsichord music and also
>knew
>> Landowska!
>>
>> I've never heard of Landowska,
>
>
>You've never heard of Wanda Landowska, who married Howard Hughes,
>then after his death married Henry Kissinger?
>
>She's Wanda Hughes Kissinger now! ;-)
Ba booom!!!!
(LIKED it, Ken)
Ian Hoare
le/on 24 Jul 2003 09:40:00 -0500, tu disais/you said:-
>Ian Hoare (ianhoare...@wanadoo.fr) wrote:
>
>: Sliminess is more a matter of which species, than youth. Boletus edulis is
>: almost never slimy, while the suillus family are all pretty slimy.
>
>Interesting how this NWR topic is evolving :)
Well....
> Well Ian, this must be the mushroom I am familiar with that grew in our backyard, under larch trees.
>This definately had a slimy character to it, no matter how lightly it was cooked.
Hmm.... let's clarify. The skin of suilluses is slimy while the skin of the
boletes - or most of them is much less so except when wet. The flesh of
elderly cepes de bordeaux can also be pretty spongy/slimy as well. I much
prefer the young ones. (Unlike wine and my neighbour).
I can't remember which family lives in association with larches. Suillus
certainly likes conifers, while in general boletes prefer deciduous trees,
with the glaring exception of B. pinophilus (which likes pines as the name
implies).
I've cheated... I looked it up! Suillus Grevillei (which I knew as S.
Elegans) likes Larches "edible but not very good".
>: Another of my passions!!
>
>Do you give fungi-hunting trips from your B&B?
"Give" no, but quite a number of our guests do come here in mushroom
season, as we're one of France's best areas. When my father coame to visit
us years ago, in 11 days we gave hum 14 different varieties of edible
excellent fungus! The trouble with running a B&B is that you tend to spend
too much time running the business to be able to spend all day out and
about collecting fungi!
> Hmmm...time to visit the Massif Central :)!
Late Sept & October is usually reliable.
However I'm no authority on matching different varieties with wines.
C.L.
> >romantic music is quite ethereal at times. Check out Dupre and
> >Durufle.
>
> OK, but not my favourites.
Hey you're in France, correct? My favorite organ composer (yes I'm
including the masters) is Jehan Alain--a not too well known guy except
among enthusiasts. His father built an organ in their house and was a
well known composer/organist as well. His sister may be the most
famous of them all, Marie Claire Alain.
I'm just wondering if you've ever heard of him. I'm not sure on the
his location--I realize France is a big country. ;) I'd LOVE to get
to the house and see that organ. Le Jardin Suspendu, Litanies, and 3
Danses are his most famous works.
Actually, he was working on an orchestration of 3 Danses while on a
railroad car on his way to fight the Nazis. The parts all flew out
the window and were lost.
Bill Spohn
>including the masters) is Jehan Alain--a not too well known guy except
>among enthusiasts.
I like him, but there is not a large body of recorded music available. I hear
his works played once in awhile at local organ recitals.
For French 20th century organ composers, I'd tout Widor, Messiaen and Franck
first.
And then there is Naji Hakim, who I saw recently - outstanding, though perhaps
more as an organist than composer.
C.L.
> >My favorite organ composer (yes I'm
> >including the masters) is Jehan Alain--a not too well known guy except
> >among enthusiasts.
>
> I like him, but there is not a large body of recorded music available. I hear
> his works played once in awhile at local organ recitals.
I have a CD of Marie Claire playing about 10 of his and 10 of their
father's works on the original house organ. Very nice stuff.
I played Litanies and Variations . . . Jannequin as a senior in HS.
Haven't been able to play them since!
Clint
keeping your venue restricted to dinner/meals, pinot noir is easy
to match up. Many fish, especially salmon, go with it very well
for example.... EVERYTHING goes with pizza, including PN....
veal also pairs with it nicely.
Then again, you DO have to simply consider your own tastes;
like one wine book I bought stated, "you have to, in the end,
simply drink what you like, there are no rules"; I follow this
rule myself, though I often find myself falling into the old
"what is appropriate" rut, but I try to avoid it. I usually just
look at the three major aspects wine- tannin, body and acidity-
and figure from there what goes with a wine if i'm in uncharted
territory. I find that the light body but medium to high acidity
of PN allows it to go well with salad that has a vinegar based
dressing or at least one that is a little crisp and acidic.... ALSO,
if the salad has cheese in it, you'll find you can use that cheese
topping to help select your wine, and if the cheese by itself
would go well with PN (like cheddar, etc), then you're set.
I once struggled with this very topic myself, as my favorite wines
include PN and others simular, such as a gamay-based or
sangiovese based wine.
Clint
"C.L." <bonest...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a3662045.03072...@posting.google.com...
> Obviously, when some, if not most, of us go to a new restaurant, we
> look at the wine list before the menu. We pick a bottle and THEN find
> something to eat with it.
>
> I'm getting pretty good at finding suitable pairings, but one wine is
> still a sort of no-man's-land for me and it happens to be one of my
> favorite.
>
> I love Pinot Noir and have had it quite a few times in restaurants.
> Last night with duck which is an obvious choice. Other times with
> lamb and "Melting Pot" fondue (a fondue chain here in the states).
>
> What are some other possiblities with dishes you frequently run across
> in restaurants or that you make at home that a Pinot Noir friendly?
> I've got about 10 bottles of the stuff from various regions but can
> never think of anything to cook that will show it off.
Emery Davis
To stay on topic, I agree a nice burgundy with a plate of cepes.
Here in normandy we use the term to refer to _any_ of the
family of boletus, including boletus ed., the true 'cepe de
bordeaux.' All of these are (as pointed out) easily spotted
as they have tubes instead of gills. There are several other
ones which are just as good as the "vrai cepe."
Of course a false morel is not in the cepe family at all,
so the poison question is moot where cepes are concerned.
However, there is a quite poisonous cepe: the "bolet de satan,"
which should be avoided unless a trip to the hospital is the
desired end result. It's easily recognizable as it has a
bulbous red base with a light grey cap, and the flesh turns
electric blue when broken. (There are several other great cepes
which turn blue when cut, notably the pied rouge and the bolet
bai. Some people avoid them out of fear of the satan, which
is too bad for them! <g>)
Some of the slimier cepes are edible, but really not more than
just OK, even with the cuticle removed.
-E
P.S. my apologies for the top post.
--
Emery Davis