Turtles all the way down
dimestore
with quotes. It's attributed to Bertrand Russel, Stephen Hawking, and
various and sundry Cosmologists, scientists and other anonymous thinkers.
Is it a real story, and if so, whose is it? It reminds me a lot of the
Oreo story, but in reverse.
-dimestore
RM Mentock
>
> Some of you might be familiar with this story, if not then Google the phrase
> with quotes.
OK. It's been discussed in AFU before, in 1998
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=35f5eab8.6252100%40news.concentric.net
and it appeared in 1993
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=2f4lrc%247ck%40s.ms.uky.edu
and attributed to Hawking in 1994, but I'm sure that's not true
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=1994May13.173302.21184%40nsscmail.southplainfieldnj.ncr.com
> It's attributed to Bertrand Russel, Stephen Hawking, and
> various and sundry Cosmologists, scientists and other anonymous thinkers.
> Is it a real story, and if so, whose is it? It reminds me a lot of the
> Oreo story, but in reverse.
--
RM Mentock
mais cette question nous entraînerait trop loin
RM Mentock
>
> In "A Brief History of Time" (the book, not the movie) Steven Hawking
> says it happened to him, personally.
I don't think so, I think he says it happened to Bertrand Russell,
but I don't have a copy handy
dick clark
"dimestore" <dime...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Sd8Ma.8218$BM.27...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
Jami JoAnne
I don't know if it's real or not but it is a myth. I can't remember which
culture. But they believed that a giant turtle carried the earth upon it's back
and whenever the turtle moved too much that's where earthquakes came from.
~Jami JoAnne Russell~
Stop animal cruelty - BAN BETTA VASES!
http://www.petitiononline.com/betta1/petition.html
Get the REALITY into "Reality" tv! Sign the petition today!
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/reality/petition.html
Alice Faber
RM Mentock <men...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> dontaskdonttell wrote:
> >
> > In "A Brief History of Time" (the book, not the movie) Steven Hawking
> > says it happened to him, personally.
>
> I don't think so, I think he says it happened to Bertrand Russell,
> but I don't have a copy handy
I'm pretty sure I've seen it attributed to William James.
Alice "but it was in an unpublished dissertation from the late 1960s, my
copy of which is in a box (if I even still have it)" Faber
--
"Even rain as hard as a cow pissing on a flat rock beats ice when
you're driving." -- Life 101, as taught by TM Oliver
Charles Wm. Dimmick
Following is the version I am most familiar with:
While delivering a lecture on cosmology one day, Sir Arthur Eddington
gave a brief overview of the early theories of the universe. Among
others, he mentioned the Indian belief that the world rested on the back
of a giant turtle, adding that it was not a particularly useful model as
it failed to explain what the turtle itself was resting on.
Following the lecture Eddington was approached by an elderly lady. "You
are very clever, young man, very clever," she forcefully declared, "but
there is something you do not understand about Indian cosmology: it's
turtles all the way down!"
[Trivia: Eddington once gave his Cambridge students an examination
question involving "a perfectly spherical elephant, whose mass may be
neglected..."]
[Eddington, Sir Arthur Stanley (1882-1944)]
Stephen Hawking is the one responsible for saying the
scientist was Bertrand Russell rather than Eddington.
I have also heard it ascribed to both Thomas Huxley and Aldous Huxley,
but were I a betting man my money would be on William James being the
original, and the story migrating, as do all true ULs, to more famous
people like Huxley, Eddington, and Russell.
Charles
--
"And some rin up hill and down dale, knapping the
chucky stanes to pieces wi' hammers, like sae mony
road-makers run daft -- they say it is to see how
the warld was made!"
Back In Town
Stephen Hawking:
A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public
lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and
how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars
called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back
of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is
really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The
scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise
standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old
lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"
Back In Town
be some confusion between tortoises and turtles. The extract is exactly as
it is in the book: I scanned it, I did not transcribe it manually.
Mark Shaw
> In article <3F015F5D...@mindspring.com>,
> RM Mentock <men...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> dontaskdonttell wrote:
>> >
>> > In "A Brief History of Time" (the book, not the movie) Steven Hawking
>> > says it happened to him, personally.
>>
>> I don't think so, I think he says it happened to Bertrand Russell,
>> but I don't have a copy handy
> I'm pretty sure I've seen it attributed to William James.
I read it in something by Isaac Asimov, where he claims it happened
to him personally. It's probably still on my shelf -- I'll see if I
can find it.
--
Mark "ain't cosmology fun" Shaw
My opinions only
(to email me, remove any mythical beasts from my address)
Andrew McMichael
>
> In "A Brief History of Time" (the book, not the movie) Steven Hawking
> says it happened to him, personally.
On page 1, Hawking writes "A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand
Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy." He then goes on to repeat
the tale.
Andrew "history is history" McMichael
Harry MF Teasley
>>Is it a real story, and if so, whose is it?
> I don't know if it's real or not but it is a myth.<...>
That's very funny. What were you thinking when you wrote it? What's a
"real story" versus a "fake story", and what differentiates either from a
myth?
Harry "Clue can accrete to the brain if sufficiently exposed to AFU for
long periods. With sufficient effort, however, it is possible to avoid
this effect." Teasley
--
"And why do we need to see your favorite quote after your name? Why do we
need a whole closing to-do? Get in and get out." -LF
Visit the AFU archives at www.urbanlegends.com
Lon Stowell
> Alice Faber <afa...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <3F015F5D...@mindspring.com>,
>> RM Mentock <men...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>dontaskdonttell wrote:
>>>
>>>>In "A Brief History of Time" (the book, not the movie) Steven Hawking
>>>>says it happened to him, personally.
>>>
>>>I don't think so, I think he says it happened to Bertrand Russell,
>>>but I don't have a copy handy
>>
>
>>I'm pretty sure I've seen it attributed to William James.
>
>
> I read it in something by Isaac Asimov, where he claims it happened
> to him personally. It's probably still on my shelf -- I'll see if I
> can find it.
It doesn't sound sufficiently pompous to be Asimov, and it would
have to be "billions and billions of turtles" to be attributable
to Carl J. Carson.
Dr H
On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Harry MF Teasley wrote:
}Jami JoAnne <gambit...@aol.comnotmale> wrote:
}>>Is it a real story, and if so, whose is it?
}
}> I don't know if it's real or not but it is a myth.<...>
}
}That's very funny. What were you thinking when you wrote it? What's a
}"real story"
A story about something real; ie., a true account.
}versus a "fake story",
A story about something not real; ie., fiction.
}and what differentiates either from a myth?
Whether they have entered into the oral or written tradition as
parable or allegory.
}Harry "Clue can accrete to the brain if sufficiently exposed to AFU for
}long periods. With sufficient effort, however, it is possible to avoid
}this effect." Teasley
HTH.
:-)
Dr H
Jami JoAnne
>"real story" versus a "fake story", and what differentiates either from a
>myth?
Actually (though I'm sure you know this) I was trying to say "I don't know if
that stupid story about the crazy old lady is real but I do know that the
turtle thing is an actual myth from some culture either Native American or
Australian, not sure which."
dacote
The other question is: What does it mean?
Mike Holmans
tapped the keyboard and brought forth:
>>That's very funny. What were you thinking when you wrote it? What's a
>>"real story" versus a "fake story", and what differentiates either from a
>>myth?
>
>Actually (though I'm sure you know this) I was trying to say "I don't know if
>that stupid story about the crazy old lady is real but I do know that the
>turtle thing is an actual myth from some culture either Native American or
>Australian, not sure which."
You mean:
"Silently, slowly and surely, Great A'Tuin paddles through space, its
great eyes surveying the dark, empty wastes before and behind it.
Standing on A'Tuin's great back are four enormous elephants, straining
under the colossal weight of the Discworld itself. It sparkles with
magic, reflects the light of the stars and generally fails to be as
unobtrusive as possible."
Mike "and the last 8 words do *so* apply to JamiJo" Holmans
Donna Richoux
>
> Actually (though I'm sure you know this) I was trying to say "I don't know if
> that stupid story about the crazy old lady is real but I do know that the
> turtle thing is an actual myth from some culture either Native American or
> Australian, not sure which."
In a discussion in a.u.e, I looked for and found evidence for a Hindu
myth that says the earth is supported by four elephants, balanced on a
turtle's back, although I didn't succeed in getting back to an original
document with such a legend. (Discworld excluded.) See my post at:
Message-ID: <1f5m7wx.1unovon1qg6rftN%tr...@euronet.nl>
But the idea that below the turtle is another turtle, ad infinitum, is a
modern one, I think. One of the retellings I found specifically says
that what is under the turtle is a cobra.
--
Donna "Great fleas have little fleas" Richoux
Deborah Stevenson,,,
>Jami JoAnne <gambit...@aol.comnotmale> wrote:
>>>Is it a real story, and if so, whose is it?
>> I don't know if it's real or not but it is a myth.<...>
>That's very funny. What were you thinking when you wrote it?
Perhaps, to give some credit, the traditional AFU position that a legend
is not necessarily false?
Deborah Stevenson
(stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
JoAnne Schmitz
wrote:
>Jami JoAnne <gambit...@aol.comnotmale> wrote:
>>>Is it a real story, and if so, whose is it?
>
>> I don't know if it's real or not but it is a myth.<...>
>
>That's very funny. What were you thinking when you wrote it?
Probably that she doesn't know if the story of the old lady telling the
physicist "it's turtles all the way down sonny" but that she does know of a
turtle myth.
JoAnne "I liked it better when you didn't even pretend to be nice" Schmitz
Andrew McMichael
>
> Jami JoAnne <gambit...@aol.comnotmale> wrote:
> >>Is it a real story, and if so, whose is it?
>
> > I don't know if it's real or not but it is a myth.<...>
>
> That's very funny. What were you thinking when you wrote it?
Maybe that a myth can be true, or not true. As per the AFUFAQ.
Andrew "as hell slowly freezes underneath me" McMichael
Harry MF Teasley
> JoAnne "I liked it better when you didn't even pretend to be nice" Schmitz
Yeah, well, I was really just setting up my next post, because that one JJ
sentence pretty much typified, for me, the manner in which Clue has eluded
her. I mean, how do you hang out here for years and still not be able to
write with a grasp of logic, and some sort of respect for accuracy and
terminology? How can you post here for years and years and not have Clue
plaque itself to your brain cells? It's a tiny error that is the tip of
her Iceberg of Ignorance: she thinks sloppily, and it comes out in her
writing.
JJ, what are "real", "story", and "myth", and how do they relate? How is
a story "real" as opposed to "true"? Where is your goddamned Google
bookmark, and why can't you search on "myth world turtle" and find a
fucking crapload of "world on a turtle" myths from all over the goddamned
planet? Why do you have to post the instant your brain grinds noisily
into second gear, instead of taking a deep breath and figuring out what
you can add to the conversation aside from vacuous comments from a
manifestly imperfect and underinformed memory?
It takes two fucking minutes to increase the value of your words ten-fold.
The fact that you can't manage that, after *years* of posting crap, is
just in-fucking-credible. Ooh, folks here are just so mean to you,
JamiJo. Folks are shitty to you because you shit on yourself, making
yourself an order of magnitude stupider than any self-respecting person
would ever think of doing. Grab a clue and bring it with you next time,
you nit.
Harry "hey, JoAnne, is that better?" Teasley
Harry MF Teasley
> Maybe that a myth can be true, or not true. As per the AFUFAQ.
Real != True, and double-plus-with-lemon moreso when the item being
described is virtual, like a story. She's a sloppy thinker.
Harry "and I use 'thinker' in its loosest possible sense" Teasley
Andrew McMichael
>
> Andrew McMichael <andrew.m...@wku.edu> wrote:
>
> > Maybe that a myth can be true, or not true. As per the AFUFAQ.
>
> Real != True, and double-plus-with-lemon moreso when the item being
> described is virtual, like a story. She's a sloppy thinker.
I agree that she is a sloppy thinker. But I took it as sloppy writing, and saw
what I felt to be a sloppy response. That is, when I read it I took her
meaning as saying "I don't know if it is real or not (ie. 'is true or not that
they story actually happened to some cosmologist'), but it is a myth (the
turtle myth is/was current in some culture I cannot remember)." This seemed
pretty AFU-ish to me.
But then, what do I know? I spend most days reading sloppy writing and trying
to derive positive meaning from it.
Andrew
Harry MF Teasley
> But then, what do I know? I spend most days reading sloppy writing and trying
> to derive positive meaning from it.
Well, you know what she's saying. I do, too, but in her case, it's just
so much more aggravating because it hasn't changed in years. How many
people here say "real story" versus "true legend"? You can read her
comment as "I don't know if this really is a story that people actually
tell" or "I don't know if this story is true or not" or "I don't know if
this is a modern story". It's just slop, and she should be ashamed.
Giving her the benefit of the doubt as to meaning is a sacrifice that no
one should have to make.
And the fact that it has more than one understandable misreading is just
breathtaking. It takes an obliviousness of surpassing density to just rat
off crap like that.
Harry "it shouldn't be tolerated" Teasley
Jami JoAnne
>so much more aggravating because it hasn't changed in years.
Years? I haven't been here years. It just SEEMS like years.
If you don't like me why don't you just filter me like I'm going to do to you?
Harry MF Teasley
>>Well, you know what she's saying. I do, too, but in her case, it's just
>>so much more aggravating because it hasn't changed in years.
> Years? I haven't been here years. It just SEEMS like years.
Just to pick a random post, from March 2001. Doesn't take Gauss to do
the math.
> If you don't like me why don't you just filter me like I'm going to do
> to you?
Hey, not a bad idea. Here's a better one: become smarter. Or even
better: forsake AFU in favor of an AOL chatroom. The average IQ of both
places will go up.
Harry "I insult with the right hand, and compliment with the left" Teasley
Bob Ward
<he...@panix.com> wrote:
>Andrew McMichael <andrew.m...@wku.edu> wrote:
>
>> But then, what do I know? I spend most days reading sloppy writing and trying
>> to derive positive meaning from it.
>
>Well, you know what she's saying. I do, too, but in her case, it's just
>so much more aggravating because it hasn't changed in years. How many
>people here say "real story" versus "true legend"? You can read her
>comment as "I don't know if this really is a story that people actually
>tell" or "I don't know if this story is true or not" or "I don't know if
>this is a modern story". It's just slop, and she should be ashamed.
>Giving her the benefit of the doubt as to meaning is a sacrifice that no
>one should have to make.
>
>And the fact that it has more than one understandable misreading is just
>breathtaking. It takes an obliviousness of surpassing density to just rat
>off crap like that.
>
>Harry "it shouldn't be tolerated" Teasley
So those of us who have her killfiled get to read her crap AND get to
watch you jack off with your keyboard? Who holds the world when Atlas
takes a break?
Simon Slavin
If the incident happened in the UK then it would be natural to
use tortoises, not turtles. The former are commonly found here
but turtles are considered exotic foreign animals. If the
story has morphed to mentioning turtles then I'm guessing that
it's because it has moved to the US.
Nathan Tenny
Simon Slavin <sla...@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost> wrote:
>In article <3f019aef$0$9355$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>,
>"Back In Town" <liv...@home.com.au> wrote:
>>Interesting. I did not notice until after I posted it, but there seems to
>>be some confusion between tortoises and turtles. The extract is exactly as
>>it is in the book: I scanned it, I did not transcribe it manually.
>
>If the incident happened in the UK then it would be natural to
>use tortoises, not turtles. The former are commonly found here
>but turtles are considered exotic foreign animals.
Do you mean "commonly found in the wild" or "commonly kept as exotic pets"?
If the former, I think there's a difference of usage somewhere...
>If the story has morphed to mentioning turtles then I'm guessing that
>it's because it has moved to the US.
I have a conjectural early source; it's been posted here before, and as
far as I can tell it's the earliest known written source (until someone
points out an earlier one): Geertz, Clifford, 1973. "Thick description:
Toward an interpretive theory of culture." In _The Interpretation of
Cultures_ (Basic Books, New York):
There is an Indian story--at least I heard it as an
Indian story --about an Englishman who, having been
told that the world rested on a platform which rested
on the back of an elephant which rested in turn on the
back of a turtle, asked (perhaps he was an ethnographer;
it is the way they behave), what did the turtle rest on?
Another turtle. And that turtle? "Ah, Sahib, after that
it is turtles all the way down."
Note: No famous attribution, which is often a sign of a version that
predates assignment to a famous protagonist.
It's been here before:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=slrn6u6ik...@guevera.mcgill.ca>
indicates that Geertz relays it more or less as fiction.
Geertz is, I believe, American; in any case India is turtlier than the
UK, and I don't have any trouble imagining "turtles all the way down" from
there.
The glove is thrown down: I challenge anyone to come up with a source
earlier than 1973.
NT
--
Nathan Tenny | When the world ends, there'll be no more
Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA | air. That's why it's important to pollute
<nten...@qualcomm.com> | the air now. Before it's too late.
| -- Kathy Acker
Nathan Tenny
>The glove is thrown down: I challenge anyone to come up with a source
>earlier than 1973.
Tentatively: s/73/71/. I can't find an actual quote, but a message at
<https://listhost.uchicago.edu/pipermail/ane/2002-December/004953.html>
(from a mailing list on the Ancient Near East) says it's recounted in
a 1971 book on linguistics:
Burt, Marina K. _From Deep to Surface Structure: An Introduction to
Transformational Syntax_. NY: Harper, 1971.
Somebody find that book and look for the turtles. We've got linguists;
*someone* must have at least library access to a copy.
The mailing-list message implies that Burt's version is also attributed
to Indian cosmology rather than to an old lady at a lecture.
Dr H
I don't know about JoAnne, but you've certainly restored MY faith.
Dr H
Alice Faber
n_t_e_nn_y_@q_ual_c_o_m_m_.c_o_m (Nathan Tenny) wrote:
> In article <bdvomv$3...@qualcomm.com>, I wrote:
> >The glove is thrown down: I challenge anyone to come up with a source
> >earlier than 1973.
>
> Tentatively: s/73/71/. I can't find an actual quote, but a message at
> <https://listhost.uchicago.edu/pipermail/ane/2002-December/004953.html>
> (from a mailing list on the Ancient Near East) says it's recounted in
> a 1971 book on linguistics:
>
> Burt, Marina K. _From Deep to Surface Structure: An Introduction to
> Transformational Syntax_. NY: Harper, 1971.
>
> Somebody find that book and look for the turtles. We've got linguists;
> *someone* must have at least library access to a copy.
I have the book on my bookshelf. It's from the right era. But it's 200+
pages of tree diagrams, with very little exposition. I could find no
discussion of recursion, which is the appropriate context for "turtles
all the way down". (The index is extremely minimal.)
My recollection of the comment is that it came the epigram of a
dissertation by Haj Ross, who contributed the foreward to Burt's book.
Amazingly enough, googling on "Haj Ross turtles" turns up the following
Greatful Dead fan site <http://arts.ucsc.edu/GDead/AGDL/terr.html> "The
Annotated Greatful Dead Lyrics", by David Dodd. The discussion is of
the song "Terrapin Station". Scrolling about halfway down the page
reveals an extended version of the William James version of the
anecdote, taken from a Turbo Pascal programming book by William
Savitch; Savitch attributed the story to Ross' dissertation, completed
in 1969. Dodd was unable to find any version of the story pre-dating
this, including the Bertrand Russell version given by Hawking.
Alice "turtle's pace" Faber
--
"Personally, I rely on a Rottweiler for 802.11 security"
--Nathan Tenny shares his "professional" networking expertise
Dr H
On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, Harry MF Teasley wrote:
}Andrew McMichael <andrew.m...@wku.edu> wrote:
}
}> Maybe that a myth can be true, or not true. As per the AFUFAQ.
}
}Real != True,
real : \adj\ [...] 2 a : not artificial, fraudulent, illusory, or
apparent : GENUINE
genuine : \adj\ 1 [...] d : ACTUAL, TRUE
-- Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary
Dr H
Alan Follett
>> Well, you know what she's saying. I do,
>> too, but in her case, it's just so much more
>> aggravating because it hasn't changed in
>> years.
> Years? I haven't been here years. It just
> SEEMS like years.
Far be it from me to join a dogpile, but Google dates your first AFU
posting to July 30, 2000. Yep, that'd be years. Coming up on three.
Alan "Arroooooow! " Follett
Hatunen
Has it only been three years? Really?
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Jami JoAnne
>>Far be it from me to join a dogpile, but Google dates your first AFU
>>posting to July 30, 2000. Yep, that'd be years. Coming up on three.
>
>Has it only been three years? Really?
>
I only remember being here from last year. Google must be screwing up.
John Francis
Jami JoAnne <gambit...@aol.comNOTMALE> wrote:
>
>
>>>Far be it from me to join a dogpile, but Google dates your first AFU
>>>posting to July 30, 2000. Yep, that'd be years. Coming up on three.
>>
>>Has it only been three years? Really?
>>
>
>I only remember being here from last year. Google must be screwing up.
Yet again, determined and arrogant ignorance.
Do the research, idiot child. Perhaps then you'll discover that google
*isn't* wrong - your self-centred mindset is, once more, incorrect.
Here's a hint - when you first showed up, the Ice Weasel was still one
of the regular posters. How long is it since she posted here?
--
As evil plans go, it doesn't suck -- Wesley offers a critique on "Angel"
Jami JoAnne
>*isn't* wrong - your self-centred mindset is, once more, incorrect.
I'm not an idiot child. You don't really know me at all, you cannot judge me.
Maybe if you took time to get to know me, and I mean actual e-mail contact
asking me things and keeping your mind open to the fact I possess intellegence
despite poor spelling, you might find yourself very surprised.
>Here's a hint - when you first showed up, the Ice Weasel was still one
>of the regular posters. How long is it since she posted here?
I don't even know anyone by that name.
John Francis
Jami JoAnne <gambit...@aol.comNOTMALE> wrote:
>>Do the research, idiot child. Perhaps then you'll discover that google
>>*isn't* wrong - your self-centred mindset is, once more, incorrect.
>
>I'm not an idiot child. You don't really know me at all, you cannot judge me.
I know the persona you present on AFU - that of a petulant, spoiled, and
wilfully ignorant brat. That's what I can judge you on here in AFU.
>Maybe if you took time to get to know me, and I mean actual e-mail contact
>asking me things and keeping your mind open to the fact I possess intellegence
>despite poor spelling, you might find yourself very surprised.
I can think of few thing to do with my time that could interest me less.
From a combination of your AFU postings and your website it's apparent
that we have very few interests (or anything else) in common.
>>Here's a hint - when you first showed up, the Ice Weasel was still one
>>of the regular posters. How long is it since she posted here?
>
>I don't even know anyone by that name.
No.. Of course you don't. It's quite obviously not a name. But a few
seconds of *research* with google or other such tool would enable anyone
who posesses the intelligence you claim to identify the poster in question.
But, of course, you won't do the research; you'd much rather persist in the
determinedly ignorant state that is your norm, not to mention making claims
that could easily be refuted by a similar small investment of your time.
If you showed the smallest desire to learn how to improve yourself
you might find that people would be prepared to give you more time.
Aaron Davies
> I don't know if it's real or not but it is a myth.
Mine!
--
__ __
/ ) / )
/--/ __. __ ________ / / __. , __o _ _
/ (_(_/|_/ (_(_) / / <_ /__/_(_/|_\/ <__</_/_)_
"I don't know if it's real or not but it is a myth."
-Jami JoAnne shows her grasp of reality yet again.
Barbara Needham
> My recollection of the comment is that it came the epigram of a
> dissertation by Haj Ross, who contributed the foreward to Burt's book.
> Amazingly enough, googling on "Haj Ross turtles" turns up the following
> Greatful Dead fan site <http://arts.ucsc.edu/GDead/AGDL/terr.html> "The
> Annotated Greatful Dead Lyrics", by David Dodd. The discussion is of
> the song "Terrapin Station". Scrolling about halfway down the page
> reveals an extended version of the William James version of the
> anecdote, taken from a Turbo Pascal programming book by William
> Savitch; Savitch attributed the story to Ross' dissertation, completed
> in 1969. Dodd was unable to find any version of the story pre-dating
> this, including the Bertrand Russell version given by Hawking.
About 1969 or shortly thereafter sounds right to me, for no more
authoritative reason than I told my daughter that when she was more than
two and less than four [years old] and she was born in 1969; I did a lot
of reading while nursing her and must have picked something up there.
However other than this personal anecdote, and remembering where in the
house I was when we discussed it, I have no scholarly wisdom or actual
cite to offer.
--
Barbara Needham
"useless posts R Us."
Andy Walton
<gambit...@aol.comNOTMALE> wrote:
> >Do the research, idiot child. Perhaps then you'll discover that google
> >*isn't* wrong - your self-centred mindset is, once more, incorrect.
>
> I'm not an idiot child. You don't really know me at all, you cannot judge me.
That's where you're wrong. Life is marked by snap judgments -- there
are far too many people in the world to submit each one to a detailed
interview. At some point, you have to decide whether someone's worth
the effort to get to know them better. Most people have developed some
skill in making that call by the time they reach adulthood.
You've been posting here for some three years. No, Google isn't lying
to mess with your head. I have a clear first-hand memory of your name
coming up at an AFU gathering in 2001, so I'm not just relying on
Google.
> Maybe if you took time to get to know me, and I mean actual e-mail contact
> asking me things and keeping your mind open to the fact I possess intellegence
> despite poor spelling, you might find yourself very surprised.
Possibly, but that's not the way to bet. Do you really think, after
over a thousand posts (many of which contain far more information than
we ever asked for) and a dizzying array of Web pages, you're some kind
of a freaking cipher? If you're going to convince anyone here that you
possess hidden depths, you might start by posting something
interesting.
But perhaps the single most mind-boggling part of this post is the last
clause above. Do you really think that your reception in this group is
based on poor spelling? That's like Ted Bundy thinking that the jury
hated him for having crooked teeth.
> >Here's a hint - when you first showed up, the Ice Weasel was still one
> >of the regular posters. How long is it since she posted here?
>
> I don't even know anyone by that name.
No, of course you don't. Because you don't *pay attention.* You're not
reading the 'froup for comprehension, you're just biding your time
while waiting for your turn to speak. That is why people respond to you
as they do. You've been at the center of a staggering amount of
communication, and by all appearances none of it has sunk in.
Everyone who comes to this newsgroup has long-held beliefs challenged.
Everyone is a newbie some time, and this group has a steeper learning
curve than most. Almost every venerable denizen of AFU was flamed at
least once in the early going. But they *learned,* and that's the step
you've skipped. Over and over again, for a long time now.
--
"Five tacos, one taco burger. Do you know where the American Dream is?"
-- Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Walton * att...@mindspring.com * http://atticus.home.mindspring.com/
Lee Ayrton
> In article <bdvpag$3...@qualcomm.com>,
> n_t_e_nn_y_@q_ual_c_o_m_m_.c_o_m (Nathan Tenny) wrote:
>
> > In article <bdvomv$3...@qualcomm.com>, I wrote:
> > >The glove is thrown down: I challenge anyone to come up with a source
> > >earlier than 1973.
[snip]
> > (from a mailing list on the Ancient Near East) says it's recounted in
> > a 1971 book on linguistics:
> >
> > Burt, Marina K. _From Deep to Surface Structure: An Introduction to
> > Transformational Syntax_. NY: Harper, 1971.
> >
> > Somebody find that book and look for the turtles. We've got linguists;
> > *someone* must have at least library access to a copy.
>
> I have the book on my bookshelf. It's from the right era. But it's 200+
[snip]
>
> My recollection of the comment is that it came the epigram of a
> dissertation by Haj Ross, who contributed the foreward to Burt's book.
[snip]
See? This is why good people stay here. Ghod but I love this group.
Lee Ayrton
> Yeah, well, I was really just setting up my next post, because that one
> JJ sentence pretty much typified, for me, the manner in which Clue has
> eluded her. I mean, how do you hang out here for years and still not be
> able to write with a grasp of logic, and some sort of respect for
> accuracy and terminology? How can you post here for years and years and
> not have Clue plaque itself to your brain cells? It's a tiny error that
> is the tip of her Iceberg of Ignorance: she thinks sloppily, and it
> comes out in her writing.
Allow me to steal a well-worn catch phrase from my long-lost college pal
Bev H.:
You're making the mistake of assuming that she's from the same
planet as you.
At various times I've privately speculated that JJ was:
Mentally ill.
A performance artiste.
A sadist.
A mentally ill, sadistic, performance artiste.
An elaborate practical joke carried off by a cabal of otherwise
normal posters taking gleeful turns at stirring the shite-pot.
All of the above.
There's a pattern to her posts: She starts out slowly, then the
frequency, shrillness and lack of connection to AFU and the known universe
rises rapidly, until she posts something that someone, anyone, everyone
can't resist. There's a brief flurry of fur and screaming, then she
quiets back down again. Lather, rinse, repeat. Year after year after
year.
I've wondered if perhaps, just perhaps, if is calculated, deliberate.
Now I don't wonder. I don't care. I kill-filed her long ago along with
an assortment of people whose signal-index here is a negative number,
people who cannot be bothered to take two fucking minutes to increase the
value of their words. Kill-files are my friend, and kill-files are
absolutely wonderful when when the people that I haven't kill-filed have
added those that I have to their kill-files, because then I don't have to
wade through second-hand effluent.
JamiJo is an excellent example of why we're not supposed to feed the
trolls -- she clearly gets something she wants from the attention and now
that she knows that she can get it, she'll continue. Short of an enforced
Ban on Engaging JamiJo (BoEJJ), we're stuck with her.
JamiJo is the barking dog who has taught humans to appear at the back
door and yell, on command.
Harry MF Teasley
> At various times I've privately speculated that JJ was:
> Mentally ill.
> A performance artiste.
> A sadist.
> A mentally ill, sadistic, performance artiste.
> An elaborate practical joke carried off by a cabal of otherwise
> normal posters taking gleeful turns at stirring the shite-pot.
> All of the above.
Well, if she's a performance artist or joke, hats off to them: the
thoroughness of her postings, and her website and fiction writing....
It's a prodigious amount of work, for an "already done" joke.
I tend to favor the idea that she's real and not a myth. It makes me
happy and warm to think of her out there, living that life.
Harry "oh, and Bob can bite me" Teasley
Charles A Lieberman
Lee Ayrton <lay...@ntplx.net> wrote:
> At various times I've privately speculated that JJ was:
[snip]
> A sadist.
Masochist, actually, as she's taken pains to point out, largely as yet
another reason for her treatment here.
--
Charles A. Lieberman | "Granted, the animals without heads, bones, or
New York, NY, USA | limbs need a lot of assistance to breed, but so
cali...@bigfoot.com | what?" Nathan Tenny teaches AFU animal husbandry
Andrew McMichael
>
> Years? I haven't been here years. It just SEEMS like years.
You've been around long enough to know that the m*tto contest is long closed.
Andrew
Len Berlind
Lee Ayrton <lay...@sea.ntplx.net> wrote:
>At various times I've privately speculated that JJ was:
>[...]
Broccoli.
wotthehell wotthehell
Come on boys, life is way too short. /gambitsamour/f:j
L"toujours gai"B
Frisbee® MCNGP
news:Pine.GSO.4.43.030702...@sea.ntplx.net...
> At various times I've privately speculated that JJ was:
>
My ex-wife.
--
Fris "I'm not Lisa. My name is JamiJo" bee® MCNGP #13
http://www.mcngp.tk
The MCNGP Team - We're here to help
Paul Tomblin
>In article <Pine.GSO.4.43.030702...@sea.ntplx.net>,
> Lee Ayrton <lay...@ntplx.net> wrote:
>> At various times I've privately speculated that JJ was:
>[snip]
>> A sadist.
>
>Masochist, actually, as she's taken pains to point out, largely as yet
>another reason for her treatment here.
Well, in that case the best thing we can do is killfile her. Hey, what do
you know, I did, about 2 years ago.
--
Paul Tomblin <ptom...@xcski.com>, not speaking for anybody
"I'm fairly sure Linux exists principally because writing an operating system
probably seems like a good way to pass the <bignum> months of darkness in
Finland" - Rodger Donaldson
Harry MF Teasley
> Well, in that case the best thing we can do is killfile her. Hey, what do
> you know, I did, about 2 years ago.
I did once upon a time, but I usually expire entries after a year, and
she's been showing up for me again lately. I just killfiled her again.
Harry
Paul Tomblin
>Paul Tomblin <ptom...@xcski.com> wrote:
>> Well, in that case the best thing we can do is killfile her. Hey, what do
>> you know, I did, about 2 years ago.
>
>I did once upon a time, but I usually expire entries after a year, and
>she's been showing up for me again lately. I just killfiled her again.
The only thing I miss about nn after I switched back to trn about 5 years
ago was that nn had time limited kill files. It defaulted to 30 days, I
think, and that was great because in 30 days, people generally either got
a clue or went away. And the ones who didn't do either of those would
never get a clue, so you'd kill file them permanently.
--
Paul Tomblin <ptom...@xcski.com>, not speaking for anybody
"The thing you don't check is the thing that will kill you."
-- Rick Grant (quoting RCAF pilot training)
Dr H
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Andy Walton wrote:
}In article <20030703004803...@mb-m13.aol.com>, Jami JoAnne
}<gambit...@aol.comNOTMALE> wrote:
}
}> >Do the research, idiot child. Perhaps then you'll discover that google
}> >*isn't* wrong - your self-centred mindset is, once more, incorrect.
}>
}> I'm not an idiot child. You don't really know me at all, you cannot judge me.
}
}That's where you're wrong. Life is marked by snap judgments -- there
}are far too many people in the world to submit each one to a detailed
}interview. At some point, you have to decide whether someone's worth
}the effort to get to know them better. Most people have developed some
}skill in making that call by the time they reach adulthood.
You can, of course, make as many ill-informed snap judgements as
you like (at least until one of them has fatal consequences).
But if your time is really so valuable, and your minutely considered
judgement is that someone is an idiot, why badger said person?
Indeed, why even spend the time required to respond to them at all?
Add a like to your killfile, and on to more important things!
Whatever those might be in afu...
[...]
}Everyone who comes to this newsgroup has long-held beliefs challenged.
<snort!> riiight.
Dr H
David Sewell
Charles Wm. Dimmick <cdim...@snet.net> wrote:
[...]
> Stephen Hawking is the one responsible for saying the
> scientist was Bertrand Russell rather than Eddington.
>
> I have also heard it ascribed to both Thomas Huxley and Aldous Huxley,
> but were I a betting man my money would be on William James being the
> original, and the story migrating, as do all true ULs, to more famous
> people like Huxley, Eddington, and Russell.
Now that's a bit much. It's like saying that a story was originally
ascribed to Mark Twain but later migrated to more famous authors
like George MacDonald, Lytton Strachey, and Arthur Hugh Clough.
Anyway, for an account of the long-standing ascription of the "turtles"
story to WJ among the linguistics community, see
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=ANDERSON.94Oct12100544%40sapir.ling.yale.edu
DS
--
David Sewell, University of Virginia
Charlottesville, VA USA
TeaLady (Mari C.)
news:be0brj$642$1...@panix5.panix.com:
> In article <20030703003030...@mb-m13.aol.com>,
> Jami JoAnne <gambit...@aol.comNOTMALE> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Far be it from me to join a dogpile, but Google dates your
>>>>first AFU posting to July 30, 2000. Yep, that'd be years.
>>>>Coming up on three.
>>>
>>>Has it only been three years? Really?
>>>
>>
>>I only remember being here from last year. Google must be
>>screwing up.
>
> Yet again, determined and arrogant ignorance.
>
> Do the research, idiot child. Perhaps then you'll discover
> that google *isn't* wrong - your self-centred mindset is, once
> more, incorrect.
>
> Here's a hint - when you first showed up, the Ice Weasel was
> still one of the regular posters. How long is it since she
> posted here?
>
>
Hell, as fairly rank newbie I whacked her ass for a gross stupidity
- going on 2 years ago ? And she had developed a rep even then,
leading me to believe (without even looking it up) that she'd been
here a whiles.
I won an award for that blistering, that's how I 'members it so
good.
--
TeaLady (mari)
Bob Beck
>> At various times I've privately speculated that JJ was:
>> Mentally ill.
>> A performance artiste.
>> A sadist.
>> A mentally ill, sadistic, performance artiste.
>> An elaborate practical joke carried off by a cabal of otherwise
>> normal posters taking gleeful turns at stirring the shite-pot.
>> All of the above.
> Well, if she's a performance artist or joke, hats off to them: the
> thoroughness of her postings, and her website and fiction writing....
> It's a prodigious amount of work, for an "already done" joke.
> I tend to favor the idea that she's real and not a myth. It makes me
> happy and warm to think of her out there, living that life.
> Harry "oh, and Bob can bite me" Teasley
...but... but...
bob "but Harry, what did I ever do to you?" beck
Karen J. Cravens
news:Xns93ADDDB...@130.133.1.4:
> jo...@panix.com (John Francis) wrote in
> news:be0brj$642$1...@panix5.panix.com:
>> Here's a hint - when you first showed up, the Ice Weasel was
>> still one of the regular posters. How long is it since she
>> posted here?
>
> Hell, as fairly rank newbie I whacked her ass for a gross stupidity
> - going on 2 years ago ? And she had developed a rep even then,
> leading me to believe (without even looking it up) that she'd been
> here a whiles.
>
> I won an award for that blistering, that's how I 'members it so
> good.
I should think that any rank newbie brave enough to whack the Ice Weasel,
even for a gross stupidity, would get an award.
--
Karen J. Cravens
John Francis
Karen J. Cravens <silve...@phoenyx.net> wrote:
>
>I should think that any rank newbie brave enough to whack the Ice Weasel,
>even for a gross stupidity, would get an award.
Posthumously, usually.
Paul Tomblin
>I should think that any rank newbie brave enough to whack the Ice Weasel,
>even for a gross stupidity, would get an award.
How about Ice Weasels brave enough to whack old timers for being "snotty
little bullies"?
--
Paul Tomblin <ptom...@xcski.com>, not speaking for anybody
"I don't care who your father is! Drop that cross one more time and you're out
of the parade!"
John Schmitt
gambit...@aol.comNOTMALE (Jami JoAnne) writes:
>Years? I haven't been here years. It just SEEMS like years.
Actually, it seems like *decades*.
John "time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so" Schmitt
--
If you have nothing to say, or rather, something extremely stupid
and obvious, say it, but in a 'plonking' tone of voice - i.e.
roundly, but hollowly and dogmatically. - Stephen Potter
John Schmitt
Harry MF Teasley <he...@panix.com> writes:
>Harry "I insult with the right hand, and compliment with the left" Teasley
...Presumably to demonstrate that you have a full complement of
digits.
John "where did the surname "Fingerman" come from" Schmitt
Lee Ayrton
> Lee Ayrton <lay...@sea.ntplx.net> wrote:
>
> >At various times I've privately speculated that JJ was:
>
> >[...]
>
> Broccoli.
ObUL: The late Cubby Broccoli, the famous movie producer ("King King")
was heir to the fabulous Broccoli fortune. His family invented that
vegetable.
Lee "Green grow the rushes, too" Ayrton
Edward Rice
dse...@virginia.edu (David Sewell) wrote:
> > I have also heard it ascribed to both Thomas Huxley and Aldous Huxley,
> > but were I a betting man my money would be on William James being the
> > original, and the story migrating, as do all true ULs, to more famous
> > people like Huxley, Eddington, and Russell.
>
> Now that's a bit much. It's like saying that a story was originally
> ascribed to Mark Twain but later migrated to more famous authors
> like George MacDonald, Lytton Strachey, and Arthur Hugh Clough.
Aw, Russell could beat either of the Huxleys with /both/ hands tied behind
his back. Huxley and SUPERMAN couldn't lay a glove on Eddington, either,
ya nit!
And it's Bulwer-Lytton, not Lytton Strachey. What are they teaching you in
that once and future wilderness?
In article <3F046126...@wku.edu>,
Andrew McMichael <andrew.m...@wku.edu> wrote:
Obviously, it's open again. Harry Winston didn't mail the Hope Diamond to
the Smithsonian and then retire, y'know?
Speaking of which, the new exhibit of seven extraordinary and rare diamonds
at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History is somewhat
interesting, although they've displayed all seven of the colored diamonds
(no, they're not Black or Afro-American(1), they're colored: pumpkin,
yellow, red, green, blue...) in a single display panel, so that once you
get to stand in front of it you're done with seeing the exhibit. Still,
it's not worth one's effort to go out of the way to avoid the exhibition,
which will last three months and then be disassembled.
Edward
(1) Okay, I think a couple of them ARE Afro-American, but none of them are
Black.
Dan Fingerman
@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>:
> John "where did the surname "Fingerman" come from" Schmitt
In my case, invented by an on-the-spot ancestor whose immigration judge
told him that Americans would be unable to pronounce his last name.
There are other, unrelated Fingerman clans who probably have different
stories.
--
DTM :<|
John Francis
John Schmitt <joh...@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>John "where did the surname "Fingerman" come from" Schmitt
Agincourt.
JoAnne Schmitz
>>Do the research, idiot child. Perhaps then you'll discover that google
>>*isn't* wrong - your self-centred mindset is, once more, incorrect.
>
>I'm not an idiot child. You don't really know me at all, you cannot judge me.
>Maybe if you took time to get to know me, and I mean actual e-mail contact
>asking me things and keeping your mind open to the fact I possess intellegence
>despite poor spelling, you might find yourself very surprised.
I tried that and you killfiled me.
>>Here's a hint - when you first showed up, the Ice Weasel was still one
>>of the regular posters. How long is it since she posted here?
>
>I don't even know anyone by that name.
USE GOOGLE YOU IGNORANT SOW.
JoAnne "tired of defending the indefensible" Schmitz
TeaLady (Mari C.)
news:Xns93ADE606...@130.133.1.4:
> begin "TeaLa
> dyspre...@yahoo.zl6quotationfrom
> news:Xns93ADDDB...@130.133.1.4:
>
>> jo...@panix.com (John Francis) wrote in
>> news:be0brj$642$1...@panix5.panix.com:
>
>>> Here's a hint - when you first showed up, the Ice Weasel was
>>> still one of the regular posters. How long is it since she
>>> posted here?
>>
>> Hell, as fairly rank newbie I whacked her ass for a gross
>> stupidity - going on 2 years ago ? And she had developed a
>> rep even then, leading me to believe (without even looking it
>> up) that she'd been here a whiles.
>>
>> I won an award for that blistering, that's how I 'members it
>> so good.
>
> I should think that any rank newbie brave enough to whack the
> Ice Weasel, even for a gross stupidity, would get an award.
>
Nonono - I whacked JJ. I wasn't posting (and admittedly, not
reading a lot) when Ice Weasel was still here. I wasn't too sure
about you usentet folks, you see, so rough and tough and ready to
pounce.
--
TeaLady (mari)
John Schmitt
Dan Fingerman <danSS...@yale2000.org> writes:
>In my case, invented by an on-the-spot ancestor whose immigration judge
>told him that Americans would be unable to pronounce his last name.
>There are other, unrelated Fingerman clans who probably have different
>stories.
Thank you. Perhaps I didn't sufficiently clarify that the post
was out of genuine curiosity, and not poking any fun at your
name. I happen to think that that sort of behaviour is
unspeakably rude and ill-cultured.
John "only rude deliberately" Schmitt
Charles A Lieberman
gambit...@aol.comNOTMALE (Jami JoAnne) wrote:
> keeping your mind open to the fact I possess intellegence
I shan't speak for anyone else, but for my own part, I can only do this
for so long in the face of the evidence -- anent which, spelling is not
the only or even, for me, the biggest problem here. Your posts don't
show that you lack intelligence necessarily, they show you refuse to
apply it.
Charles A Lieberman
Dan Fingerman <danSS...@yale2000.org> wrote:
> > John "where did the surname "Fingerman" come from" Schmitt
>
> In my case, invented by an on-the-spot ancestor whose immigration judge
> told him that Americans would be unable to pronounce his last name.
Dare I ask what the allegedly unpronouncible name was?
Well, clearly, but will I get an answer?
Nathan Tenny
>told him that Americans would be unable to pronounce his last name.
Roughly when? This makes you darn near a living UL, you know.
I've known a few people in whose families the same thing happened, but
never one whose name was *forcibly* (by insistence or error) changed by
the immigration folk, which I think of as the unalloyed ULish version.
NT
--
Nathan Tenny | When the world ends, there'll be no more
Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA | air. That's why it's important to pollute
<nten...@qualcomm.com> | the air now. Before it's too late.
| -- Kathy Acker
Hatunen
<cali...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>In article <Xns93AE6E549BF4Aw...@130.133.1.4>,
> Dan Fingerman <danSS...@yale2000.org> wrote:
>
>> > John "where did the surname "Fingerman" come from" Schmitt
>>
>> In my case, invented by an on-the-spot ancestor whose immigration judge
>> told him that Americans would be unable to pronounce his last name.
>
>Dare I ask what the allegedly unpronouncible name was?
Hatunen?
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Dan Fingerman
<news:calieber-7CF6B1...@news.fu-berlin.de>:
> In article <Xns93AE6E549BF4Aw...@130.133.1.4>,
> Dan Fingerman <danSS...@yale2000.org> wrote:
>
>> > John "where did the surname "Fingerman" come from" Schmitt
>>
>> In my case, invented by an on-the-spot ancestor whose immigration
>> judge told him that Americans would be unable to pronounce his
>> last name.
>
> Dare I ask what the allegedly unpronouncible name was?
I will probably sound like an idiot, but I cannot remember. The last
time I was told this story was fifteen years ago, and I was around ten
at the time. I will ask my father next time I get a chance.
--
DTM :<|
Dan Fingerman
<news:bec9u7$5...@qualcomm.com>:
> In article <Xns93AE6E549BF4Aw...@130.133.1.4>,
> Dan Fingerman <danSS...@yale2000.org> wrote:
>>In my case, invented by an on-the-spot ancestor whose immigration
>>judge told him that Americans would be unable to pronounce his
>>last name.
>
> Roughly when? This makes you darn near a living UL, you know.
>
> I've known a few people in whose families the same thing happened,
> but never one whose name was *forcibly* (by insistence or error)
> changed by the immigration folk, which I think of as the unalloyed
> ULish version.
He deserted from the Russian army just before the Bolshevik revolution
[1] and made his way to the U.S. over several months. So he would have
arrived here in 1918.
The last time I heard this story (I was quite young at the time, so I
may have it wrong), I got the impression that he changed his name out
of a desire to fit in -- not because he was forced to. He was only
"on-the-spot" because he had the opportunity to change his name without
any warning. Having recently deserted a military post, blending in
would have been on his priority list for other reasons, too.
[1] Not a fun time to be a Jew in Russia.
--
DTM :<|
Andy Walton
Fingerman <danSS...@yale2000.org> wrote:
> He deserted from the Russian army just before the Bolshevik revolution
> [1]
[...]
> [1] Not a fun time to be a Jew in Russia.
Some times have been worse than others, but I can't think of a period
in the last millennium I'd describe as "fun."
--
"When I split an infinitive, God damn it, I split it so it stays split."
-- Raymond Chandler
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Walton * att...@mindspring.com * http://atticus.home.mindspring.com/
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> The last time I heard this story (I was quite young at the time, so I
> may have it wrong), I got the impression that he changed his name out
> of a desire to fit in -- not because he was forced to. He was only
> "on-the-spot" because he had the opportunity to change his name without
> any warning. Having recently deserted a military post, blending in
> would have been on his priority list for other reasons, too.
It's that sort of thing which gives rise to people in the
part of Pennsylvania stretching from Scranton to Tremont who
spell their name Dimmick and who are no relation to me. I'm
related to 90% of them but the other 10% came over here from
Germany and Central Europe with various names beginning Dim..
and found people already here named Dimmick, so changed their
names to fit in. Very confusing to me at first when I was
working on the genealogy of the part of my family in that
region.
Charles Wm. Dimmick
[From Tai Mocca, a place where you keep pigs on market day]
--
"And some rin up hill and down dale, knapping the
chucky stanes to pieces wi' hammers, like sae mony
road-makers run daft -- they say it is to see how
the warld was made!"
Crashj
<>
> Some times have been worse than others, but I can't think of a period
> in the last millennium I'd describe as "fun."
Lazarus? Is that you?
Crashj 'Long time' Johnson
Karen J. Cravens
news:3F0AB544...@snet.net:
> It's that sort of thing which gives rise to people in the
> part of Pennsylvania stretching from Scranton to Tremont who
> spell their name Dimmick and who are no relation to me. I'm
> related to 90% of them but the other 10% came over here from
> Germany and Central Europe with various names beginning Dim..
> and found people already here named Dimmick, so changed their
> names to fit in. Very confusing to me at first when I was
> working on the genealogy of the part of my family in that
> region.
I worked with a young lady surnamed Palacioz. She explained the silent
'z' at the end (and a relative named 'Palacio') thusly: "Too many people
named 'Palacio' have come here, with too many identical first names, so to
differentiate them some took/had to take 'Palacios,' and others
'Palacioz.' They're all pronounced 'Palacio.'"
--
Karen J. Cravens
me
> >>Far be it from me to join a dogpile, but Google dates your first AFU
> >>posting to July 30, 2000. Yep, that'd be years. Coming up on three.
> >
> >Has it only been three years? Really?
> >
>
> I only remember being here from last year. Google must be screwing up.
July 31, 2000. Bella Lugosi story. 'Course maybe it's a
lingering Y2K "problem".
goose
<snipped>
<delurk>
> gave a brief overview of the early theories of the universe. Among
> others, he mentioned the Indian belief that the world rested on the back
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
that is not an indian belief. I believe (but cannot, right now, find my
references) that the reason the indians told this to the white men who
colonised them was because they believed that the white man was too
simple to understand hinduism.
<might not remember this 100% correctly>
afaik, the indians, mesopotamians, sumerians and early egyptians
were basing their study of stars and planets on accurate (by todays
standards) assumptions -> the planets orbiting the sun, the spherical
nature of planets, etc long before the birth of christ anyway.
it seems that the only civilisations in history that were unconvinced
of the planets sphericity were civilisations based on christianity.
(someone could post another civilisation here who did not know'
that the earth was round and so shoot that above statement to smithereens
:-).
some books have claimed that the 4 vedas that form the basis of
hinduism were first written in sanskrit roughly 4000 years ago, others
claim the all of the eastern religions were derived from christianity,
and yet others claim that islam is the basis of all dialog with god.
I add in that last paragraph because I dont really want to start a
"my god can beat up your god" war on my very first post here :-)
<snipped>
hth
goose, agnostic and proud of it;
indians *do* have, afaik, an elephant deity of sorts - Ganesha,
and they have various other animals, but turtles have never been
revered by any major religion that I am aware of (ancient ones as
well as current ones).
Harry MF Teasley
> that is not an indian belief. I believe (but cannot, right now, find my
> references) that the reason the indians told this to the white men who
> colonised them was because they believed that the white man was too
> simple to understand hinduism.
Wrong "Indian".
> I add in that last paragraph because I dont really want to start a
> "my god can beat up your god" war on my very first post here :-)
> indians *do* have, afaik, an elephant deity of sorts - Ganesha,
> and they have various other animals, but turtles have never been
> revered by any major religion that I am aware of (ancient ones as
> well as current ones).
Turtles don't have to be revered to be mentioned. They're featured as
carrying the world in a number of mythologies from around the world.
Harry "you can google it, if you want" Teasley
--
"And why do we need to see your favorite quote after your name? Why do we
need a whole closing to-do? Get in and get out." -LF
Visit the AFU archives at www.urbanlegends.com
TMOliver
>
> I worked with a young lady surnamed Palacioz. She explained
> the silent 'z' at the end (and a relative named 'Palacio')
> thusly: "Too many people named 'Palacio' have come here,
> with too many identical first names, so to differentiate
> them some took/had to take 'Palacios,' and others
> 'Palacioz.' They're all pronounced 'Palacio.'"
>
The Spanish always were a bit confused about what letter went
where (and kept changing with time).
Obviously, the surname arises form the Spanish "palacio" or
palace, and at some time back before dawn, those who worked
there were the "de palacio" or "palacios", but I never met a
Palacioz, while expecting the family's original stomping grounds
would be either catalonia or the basque provinces where "z" and
"x" are frequent last letters.
Of course, the local Palacios, pretty common, and even have a
towned, grossly unpalatial, named for them on the Texas Coast,
its high school's mascot, "The Fighting Sandcrabs".
Meanwhile, phonebooks seem split on the once well noted family,
Quijote or Quixote, depending upon the era of
migration/publication (as those Espanyard pub;lishers
ruthlessly exiled "x" and hammered home "j").
TM "Some of mine changed surnames to escape felony warrants."
Oliver
Karen J. Cravens
news:Xns93B2621FFA15...@206.127.4.21:
> Obviously, the surname arises form the Spanish "palacio" or
> palace, and at some time back before dawn, those who worked
> there were the "de palacio" or "palacios", but I never met a
> Palacioz, while expecting the family's original stomping grounds
> would be either catalonia or the basque provinces where "z" and
> "x" are frequent last letters.
They all supposedly came from a town in Mexico whose name I've forgotten;
the "Palacioz" spelling seems to be concentrated in Wichita/Hutchinson,
with a few outliers here and there.
--
Karen J. Cravens
Mark Shaw
> I read it in something by Isaac Asimov, where he claims it happened
> to him personally. It's probably still on my shelf -- I'll see if I
> can find it.
I was *so* sure about this, and since I had a few idle minutes
this morning I grepped through all of my nonfiction Asimow.
Didn't find it.
So I checked Hawking's _A Brief History of Time_, which was on
the next shelf down. There was the turtle story, just as another
poster or two have pointed out.
--
Mark "Harumph" Shaw
My opinions only
(to email me, remove any mythical beasts from my address)
Nathan Tenny
Harry MF Teasley <he...@panix.com> wrote:
>goose <ru...@webmail.co.za> wrote:
>> that is not an indian belief. I believe (but cannot, right now, find my
>> references) that the reason the indians told this to the white men who
>> colonised them was because they believed that the white man was too
>> simple to understand hinduism.
>
>Wrong "Indian".
Google and I between us don't have the post up to which goose was
following. It is certainly true that early vectors of the "turtles all
the way down" story frame it as an Indian (from India) story ("After that,
sahib, it is turtles all the way down"). Between that and the "Turtle
Island" idea, it's kind of hard to parse what's meant by "Indian" in
isolation in this discussion.
And on the other hand---
>> [...] but turtles have never been
>> revered by any major religion that I am aware of (ancient ones as
>> well as current ones).
>
>Turtles don't have to be revered to be mentioned. They're featured as
>carrying the world in a number of mythologies from around the world.
---yeah, that. Notably including some "Indian" (==Native American) ones,
which I assume is what was meant upthread.
I don't know about "revered", but turtles figure pretty prominently in
a variety of myths, including creation myths, around the Pacific Rim.
If you've ever seen a sea turtle in the wild, you can figure how people
would be inclined to attach some importance to the things.
Harry MF Teasley
>>Wrong "Indian".
> Google and I between us don't have the post up to which goose was
> following.
References: <Sd8Ma.8218$BM.27...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com> might help,
although Google Groups seemed to be down just now, when I tried to search
AFU.
Anyway, I was wrong about which "Indians" Charles was referring to,
although it doesn't really matter, because you can find it in both places.
A lot of North American Indians have "world on the turtle" myths, while
Hinduism has Vishnu taking the form of a turtle as the Kurma avatar, and
carrying the world on his back. I was too hasty in deciding which
"Indian" Charles referred to.
> I don't know about "revered", but turtles figure pretty prominently in
> a variety of myths, including creation myths, around the Pacific Rim.
> If you've ever seen a sea turtle in the wild, you can figure how people
> would be inclined to attach some importance to the things.
You bet. Chinese myth has the heavens above being the shell of a turtle.
Harry
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> Anyway, I was wrong about which "Indians" Charles was referring to,
> although it doesn't really matter, because you can find it in both places.
> A lot of North American Indians have "world on the turtle" myths, while
> Hinduism has Vishnu taking the form of a turtle as the Kurma avatar, and
> carrying the world on his back. I was too hasty in deciding which
> "Indian" Charles referred to.
As far as I know, if by Charles you mean me, I never referred
to an Indian of any sort in relation to turtles. Somebody
back there somewhere mixed up attributions.
Charles
Dr H
On Fri, 4 Jul 2003, JoAnne Schmitz wrote:
}On 03 Jul 2003 04:48:03 GMT, gambit...@aol.comNOTMALE (Jami JoAnne) wrote:
}
}>>Do the research, idiot child. Perhaps then you'll discover that google
}>>*isn't* wrong - your self-centred mindset is, once more, incorrect.
}>
}>I'm not an idiot child. You don't really know me at all, you cannot judge me.
}>Maybe if you took time to get to know me, and I mean actual e-mail contact
}>asking me things and keeping your mind open to the fact I possess intellegence
}>despite poor spelling, you might find yourself very surprised.
}
}I tried that and you killfiled me.
I tried that, and she didn't killfile me.
My ASCII must be more suave than yours.
Dr H
Ben Zimmer
>
> My recollection of the comment is that it came the epigram of a
> dissertation by Haj Ross, who contributed the foreward to Burt's book.
> Amazingly enough, googling on "Haj Ross turtles" turns up the following
> Greatful Dead fan site <http://arts.ucsc.edu/GDead/AGDL/terr.html> "The
> Annotated Greatful Dead Lyrics", by David Dodd. The discussion is of
> the song "Terrapin Station". Scrolling about halfway down the page
> reveals an extended version of the William James version of the
> anecdote, taken from a Turbo Pascal programming book by William
> Savitch; Savitch attributed the story to Ross' dissertation, completed
> in 1969. Dodd was unable to find any version of the story pre-dating
> this, including the Bertrand Russell version given by Hawking.
The New York Times archive reveals an intriguing early variant, in a
1936 letter to the editor from one Whidden Graham:
Public Interest in Science.
New York Times; Mar 9, 1936; pg. 16
Your correspondent who recently explored the lack of public
interest in scientific matters may find the explanation of
popular indifference toward what is vaguely called "science"
in the 11,000-word article by Professor Albert Einstein, in
which he declared that gravitation and electricity combine
to form solid matters. Just so. The world rests on an
elephant, which stands on a tortoise, which lies on a rock,
and there are rocks all the way down.
(Mr. Graham goes on to vector "only n people in the world understand
Einstein"-- in this case n=8.)
This version is similar to one mentioned on the Terry Pratchett NG:
From: pa...@actrix.co.at (Paul Gillingwater)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.pratchett
Subject: Re: The origin of Discworld? :-)
Message-ID: <930406.202443.7...@actrix.co.at>
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1993 20:24:43 ECT
And here is possibly the definitive reference:
Introducing "Tomorrow's Miracles" by L. Ron Hubbard
(written 1938, published in "Writers of the Future Vol. IV",
edited by Algys Budrys.
This contains a description of a reference to the book
"Astronomy", by Arthur M. Harding (Garden City Publishing,
New York, 1935, page 4.)
This in turn describes a reference to the Hindu sacred
texts, the Vedas, in which it describes the world as being
a hemisphere, supported by four large elephants. The
elephants in turn are supported by a giant mud turtle. It
then goes on to say that there is MUD under the mud turtles,
and MUD all the rest of the way!
(Hubbard text is at: <http://www.lronhubbard.org/philo1/miracle1.htm>.)
There are many 19th-century references to the world/elephant/turtle
arrangement, often presented as a metaphor for circular or incomplete
reasoning (as John Locke used it in _An Essay Concerning Human
Understanding_, cited on the "Terrapin Station" page mentioned above).
It's usually said that there is nothing underneath the turtle, so
perhaps "rocks/mud all the way down" was a nudie tail in the '30s that
mutated into the more familiar "turtles all the way down" kicker.
Ben "rigged veda" Zimmer
JoAnne Schmitz
ASCII....
Suave....
JoAnne "wearing only a cap, no one will get the joke, more's the pity" Schmitz
Dr H
Would that be the ASCAP?
Dr H
Phil Edwards
sla...@hearsay.demon.co.uk@localhost (Simon Slavin) wrote:
>In article <3f019aef$0$9355$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>,
>"Back In Town" <liv...@home.com.au> wrote:
>
>>Interesting. I did not notice until after I posted it, but there seems to
>>be some confusion between tortoises and turtles. The extract is exactly as
>>it is in the book: I scanned it, I did not transcribe it manually.
>
>If the incident happened in the UK then it would be natural to
>use tortoises, not turtles. The former are commonly found here
When did you last see a tortoise?
>but turtles are considered exotic foreign animals.
They're also considered *different* animals, though; turtles are the
ones that swim. 'Giant tortoise', in particular, makes me think
specifically of the Galapagos Islands, whereas 'giant turtle' just
makes me envisage an unusually large turtle.
>If the
>story has morphed to mentioning turtles then I'm guessing that
>it's because it has moved to the US.
It's the other way round if you ask me - the tortoise/turtle confusion
in the Hawking quote looks like a half-assed attempt at Anglicising
the story, with tortoises substituted throughout but turtles retained
for the sake of preserving the punchline.
P "vectors all the way down" E
--
Phil Edwards http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/amroth/
"The question is only whether the universe beyond the visible fringe
is infinite in number of monkeys." - Hugh Gibbons, cosmologist
Phil Edwards
Tomblin) wrote:
>In a previous article, "Karen J. Cravens" <silve...@phoenyx.net> said:
>>I should think that any rank newbie brave enough to whack the Ice Weasel,
>>even for a gross stupidity, would get an award.
>
>How about Ice Weasels brave enough to whack old timers for being "snotty
>little bullies"?
Only a snotty little bully would drag something like that up.
P "or so I'm told" E
Donna Richoux
> This version is similar to one mentioned on the Terry Pratchett NG:
>
> From: pa...@actrix.co.at (Paul Gillingwater)
> Newsgroups: alt.fan.pratchett
> Subject: Re: The origin of Discworld? :-)
> Message-ID: <930406.202443.7...@actrix.co.at>
> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1993 20:24:43 ECT
>
> And here is possibly the definitive reference:
>
> Introducing "Tomorrow's Miracles" by L. Ron Hubbard
> (written 1938, published in "Writers of the Future Vol. IV",
> edited by Algys Budrys.
>
> This contains a description of a reference to the book
> "Astronomy", by Arthur M. Harding (Garden City Publishing,
> New York, 1935, page 4.)
>
> This in turn describes a reference to the Hindu sacred
> texts, the Vedas, in which it describes the world as being
> a hemisphere, supported by four large elephants. The
> elephants in turn are supported by a giant mud turtle. It
> then goes on to say that there is MUD under the mud turtles,
> and MUD all the rest of the way!
>
> (Hubbard text is at: <http://www.lronhubbard.org/philo1/miracle1.htm>.)
I found two references to it being a sea of milk, not mud. There's no
naming of chapter and verse, though (is numbering the lines of one's
sacred texts a Western concept?)
Scriptures: 1. Four Vedas. Poems from around
1500-1200 BC. Originally transmitted orally. Written
down around 500 BC. Oldest surviving manuscript 1300
AD. ... Here is found the teaching that the
earth is supported on four elephants on the back of
a turtle swimming in a huge bowl of milk.
And this:
such as that contained in the Sutras, part of the
scripture of the Hindu religion. Here we find the
statement that the earth is on the back of four
elephants on top of a turtle, encircled by a
serpent, swimming in a sea of milk. Are the Sutras
inspired by God? What about the Vedas or Upanishads,
other Hindu scriptures?
>
> There are many 19th-century references to the world/elephant/turtle
> arrangement, often presented as a metaphor for circular or incomplete
> reasoning (as John Locke used it in _An Essay Concerning Human
> Understanding_, cited on the "Terrapin Station" page mentioned above).
> It's usually said that there is nothing underneath the turtle, so
> perhaps "rocks/mud all the way down" was a nudie tail in the '30s that
> mutated into the more familiar "turtles all the way down" kicker.
No one has mentioned "Yertle the Turtle" by Dr. Seuss. I wonder if that
image of an ever-increasing stack of turtles made its contribution.
Here's the cover of the book:
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0394800877.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
First published 1948.
--
Donna "then there's that vanishingly small series of cats in hats"
Richoux
Charles A Lieberman
tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
> I found two references to it being a sea of milk, not mud.
This jibes with the word "galaxy" being etymologically descended from a
Greek word referring to milk.
--
Charles A. Lieberman | "I don't think QANTAS has target radar, or indeed
New York, NY, USA | any air to air or air to ground attack capability
cali...@bigfoot.com | that would require a target radar." --Paul Tomblin
Nick Spalding
<calieber-93A745...@news.fu-berlin.de>:
> In article <1fyo7bo.1kqo4si1rqq86aN%tr...@euronet.nl>,
> tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
>
> > I found two references to it being a sea of milk, not mud.
>
> This jibes with the word "galaxy" being etymologically descended from a
> Greek word referring to milk.
To the ancient Greeks there was only the one galaxy which we call The Milky
Way.
--
Nick Spalding
RM Mentock
Or to early twentieth century astronomers and physicists?
--
RM Mentock
No se puede vivir sin amar
Nick Spalding
I'm not sure about that. The Earl of Rosse observed spiral galaxies in the
mid 1800s using the great 72 inch telescope at Birr Castle, Kings
County(1), Ireland, which has recently been restored to working order with
a new mirror. When it was recognised that these were in fact outside the
local galaxy I don't know.
(1) Nowadays Co. Offaly.
--
Nick Spalding
Hatunen
<spal...@iol.ie> wrote:
>Charles A Lieberman wrote, in
>> This jibes with the word "galaxy" being etymologically descended from a
>> Greek word referring to milk.
>
>To the ancient Greeks there was only the one galaxy which we call The Milky
>Way.
That's also what the ancient Greeks called it.
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *