No dogs or ___ allowed

[Tim McDaniel]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16539482
"Alaskan Indian woodcarver revives extinct totem art"
12 January 2012

"There used to be signs in Ketchikan, Alaska, [that said] no dogs
or Indians allowed," the younger Boxley says. [David Robert
Boxley, the younger of the two Tsimshians totem-pole carvers]

--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

[JoAnne Schmitz]

On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 23:19:34 -0800, meh <y...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:23:09 +0000 (UTC), tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
>
>>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16539482
>>"Alaskan Indian woodcarver revives extinct totem art"
>>12 January 2012
>>
>> "There used to be signs in Ketchikan, Alaska, [that said] no dogs
>> or Indians allowed," the younger Boxley says. [David Robert
>> Boxley, the younger of the two Tsimshians totem-pole carvers]
>

>In NY, it was Irish.
>
>In San Diego during WWII, it was Navy.
>
>Other places and other times, other races or groups, I have NO doubt whatsoever.

There's also the "No ______ or circus people" one.

JoAnne "confuses the local dating scene" Schmitz

--

The new Urban Legends website is <http://www.tafkac.org>
That's TAFKAC.ORG
Do not accept lame imitations at previously okay URLs

[Tim McDaniel]

In article <q1b2h79vhfv0lff2o...@4ax.com>,

meh <y...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:23:09 +0000 (UTC), tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
>

>>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16539482
>>"Alaskan Indian woodcarver revives extinct totem art"
>>12 January 2012
>>
>> "There used to be signs in Ketchikan, Alaska, [that said] no
>> dogs or Indians allowed," the younger Boxley says. [David Robert
>> Boxley, the younger of the two Tsimshians totem-pole carvers]
>

>In NY, it was Irish.
>
>In San Diego during WWII, it was Navy.
>
>Other places and other times, other races or groups, I have NO doubt
>whatsoever.

That's weird. I swear I read about this recently, but I can't find
where, and I can't find anything pertinent with "Irish" in at snopes.
Can someone point me at authenticated examples of signs from the
period? Also, I vaguely remember some assertion about seeing such
things in ads in the paper but not in signs.

--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

[Lee Ayrton]

This essay:

<http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm>

... says that the legend, fueled by two versions of a popular 19th C.
song, greatly exceeds the facts. The author found no authenticated
photos or reliable reports of actual US "no Irish need apply" signs, and
extremely scant want ad examples.

I did find this page, which reproduces a few more NINA ads and quotes
some editorials, so there's more than what the essayist above found:

<http://yesteryearsnews.wordpress.com/2011/03/17/where-no-irish-need-
apply/>

And then there's this example, purportedly a want ad posted by the
National baseball club of Washington:

<http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3224/2449858015_476383ca76.jpg>

But, yes, it seems to be one of those things that everyone knows to be
true but no one has actually seen first hand.

[James]

On Mar 6, 1:30 pm, Lee Ayrton <layr...@panix.com.nul> wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jan 2012 17:21:52 +0000, Tim McDaniel wrote:

> > In article <q1b2h79vhfv0lff2oogu5kboeu5830i...@4ax.com>, meh
> > <y...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> >>On Fri, 13 Jan 2012 16:23:09 +0000 (UTC), t...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel)

> true but no one has actually seen first hand.- Hide quoted text -

I've been similarly frustrated over the hope of finding photographic
evidence of a "No Dogs or Jews" sign in Toronto's Beach community,
specifically the Balmy Beach boardwalk.

If you google it, such a sign has been referenced many many times,
including Wiki articles. But no photos seem to exist that I can find.
I do recall seeing one in a Toronto Star article about the Christie
Pit riots before WWII, but that was many years back and I can't find
it through google.

[Charles Wm. Dimmick]

On 3/7/2012 10:44 AM, James wrote:
> No Dogs or Jews

Related signs:

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2010/01/on_patrol_with_.html

and, from Lake Winnipeg:
http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=18116

See also:
<http://nodogsoranglophones.blogspot.com/2011/06/no-dogs-and-chinese-allowed.html>

Charles

[James]

> <http://nodogsoranglophones.blogspot.com/2011/06/no-dogs-and-chinese-a...>
>
> Charles

Thanks for that Charles, indeed some of those sites reference the same
allegation about Toronto.

I have little doubt it is true. The Beach area (people from other
areas of Toronto call it the Beaches) was home base for a gang called
the "Swastika Club" in the late thirties. The interesting point would
be whether the sign was "official" or not. I would be somewhat
suprised if it was an official sign.

[Donna Richoux]

Lee Ayrton <lay...@panix.com.nul> wrote:

[snip discussion of signs re No dogs Or Indians, etc]

> This essay:
>
> <http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm>
>
> ... says that the legend, fueled by two versions of a popular 19th C.
> song, greatly exceeds the facts. The author found no authenticated
> photos or reliable reports of actual US "no Irish need apply" signs, and
> extremely scant want ad examples.
>
> I did find this page, which reproduces a few more NINA ads and quotes
> some editorials, so there's more than what the essayist above found:
>
> <http://yesteryearsnews.wordpress.com/2011/03/17/where-no-irish-need-
> apply/>

The Yesteryearsnews page is splendid -- not just anecdotes and songs but
copies of actual "help wanted" ads from US papers 1850-1870. From what's
been said here and in the Jensen essay, I was beginning to think that
ANY use of "No Irish Need Apply" was false, but I can see that's not
true. Jensen was trying to make a point about how it did or did not
shift from England, where its use was well-documented (especially
regarding female domestics), to the United States, where it is not.

The Yesteryears examples encouraged me to see what Google Books has. I
pretty quickly turned up:

-- The Lancet (medical journal), Aug. 7 1859.
[Summary:] wanted immediately... fully qualified assistant... fully
conversant with the routine of General Practice... No Irish need apply,
or any whose character will not bear the fullest investigation...
Chippenham, Wilts[shire, England]

-- The Bazaar, Exchange and Mart, and Journal of the Household, Volume
5, Issue 174
Page 24: Wanted, on the 3rd July, two good servants, plain cook and a
housemaid... No Irish need apply... Strand, W.C. [London]
Page 725: General servant. Wanted... Malburn-park, W. No Irish need
apply.

I also saw discussions deploring the use of the phrase, such as a letter
to the Editor of the Medical Times and Gazette [British Medical
Association] 1853. Volume 1, Page 482

I should keep trying to find some US examples, but GooBoo has become a
bit cumbersome.

These say nothing about the US or about signs in windows. However,
Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence.

> And then there's this example, purportedly a want ad posted by the
> National baseball club of Washington:
>
> <http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3224/2449858015_476383ca76.jpg>
>
> But, yes, it seems to be one of those things that everyone knows to be
> true but no one has actually seen first hand.

If "it" means a sign, not an ad, okay. I think it behooves us to be
careful in our distinction, or next thing you know, we'll hear someone
on TV trumpeting "No one ever said 'No Irish Need Apply'! It was all an
urban legend!"

I can't think of who would have preserved a paper or cardboard Help
Wanted sign anyway -- a museum of labor practices?

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

[Mac]

On Mar 7, 4:31 pm, t...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:

> [snip discussion of signs re No dogs&cet]

There's a master's thesis lurking in the question of what was meant,
exactly by "Irish," if you have Keefe and Hackett advertising that
they don't want 'em.

Anthony "No -more- Irish Need Apply?" McCafferty

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

I see one in dutch from 1847:

»Ier" en »dronkaard" was gelijkluidend, en de trek naar sterken
drank zoo hevig, dat ieder dienstbare zich dikwijls genoeg daaraan
te buiten ging, om de bijvoeging te regtvaardigen aan elke
aanvaarg om huisbedienden in de onderscheidene Engelsche en
Amerikaansche dagbladen: »No Irishmen need apply."

_De Gids_, 1847

Earlier:

Judge Beler put a notice over his factory gate at Lowell, "no
cigars or Irishmen admitten within these walls"

_The Gentleman's Magazine_, January, 1838

By 1842, I see "No Irish need apply" described (in the UK) as a "very
unamiable, but by no means unfrequent, P.S." on advertisements for
housemaids.

The _NY Times_ archive (which goes back to 1851) has its first hit in
1853:

Nurse and seamstress wanted--To go in the country during the
Summer. A kind, conscientious and capable Protestant woman who
can fill the place and make herself useful to a lady, can have a
good situation, with a chance of spending the Summer in a quiet
and healthy part of the country, and will be paid the highest
wages. No Irish woman will be employed. Address D., box
No. 1960, lower Post-Office. [5/27/1853]

Woman wanted--To do general housework in a small family. No
Irish, and none but Protestants with the best of references need
apply, at No. 88 Willoughby-st., Brooklyn. [6/19/1854]

Girl wanted--In a small private family--a young girl, 14 or 15
years old, either American or German, to take care of a young
child. She must have good references. Wages $3 a month. No
Irish need apply. Call at No. 89 McDougal-st. [11/10/1854]

Clean, active girl wanted--To do the housework of a private
family; must be a first-rate washer and ironer, a good plain cook,
and kind and obliging to children. Apply at No 27
Lamartine-place, 29th-st., between 8th and 9th-avs. No Irish need
apply. [5/1/1855]

Wanted--A tidy, smart young Protestant girl, who understands
waiting and chamberwork, with good City references. French or
German, speaking English preferred. Apply at No 727 Houston-st.
Also, a good Protestant woman, as cook, first-rate washer and
ironer. No Irish need apply. [1/19/1856]

And so on. Not a huge number of hits, but a few a year.

> These say nothing about the US or about signs in windows. However,
> Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence.

Finding evidence of signs is, of course, much harder. If the ads I
found here (and the pages they were on) are anything to go by, it was
more common to run "help wanted" (and "situation wanted") ads for
women and girls than for men and boys, and the positions tended to be
in people's houses (and therefore all over the city). Men, on the
other hand, would be more likely to find work by "pounding the
pavement" in the business districts and seeing signs in windows.

--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
Still with HP Labs |Code should be designed to make it
SF Bay Area (1982-) |easy to get it right, not to work
Chicago (1964-1982) |if you get it right.

evan.kir...@gmail.com

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/