Sundown Towns?
Gerald Belton
> Interestingly, Clarence Page's column in today's (May 17th)
>Chicago Tribune is about post-cards of lynchings, which are
>on exhibit somewhere hereabouts. The motive of the exhibit
>is of the "lest we forget" sort, but not everybody (black
>or white) is thrilled with this idea.
And isn't it odd that the Jack Daniels distillery is located in a town
called Lynchburg? Isn't that like a town in Germany being called
"FinalSolutionVille?"
Gerald "folk etymology R us" Belton
Trystero4
town after sundown" were "unsavory" and not "newsworthy" that it explains why
there are no pictures of them. If things like that were acceptable many
decades back there should be plenty of evidence that they existed. There are
numerous photos of Klan gatherings, blackface shows, "whites only" placards
etc. Hell you can still buy "Amos and Andy" videos. Is there some big
conspiracy to destroy all evidence of "sundown town" signs?
Jay Denebeim
David Hatunen <hat...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
>I'm old enough to retroactively regret not going with my friends to
>Selma and that means I'm old enough to be aware of the trappings of
>Jim Crow.
Speaking of which, Cheryl and I stopped at Selma on one of our trips.
Her mom went to the protest and Cheryl thought it would be a good
thing to help keep her in touch with her mom. We couldn't find a
thing memorializing the event while we were there. Quaint town
though.
Jay
--
* Jay Denebeim Moderator rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated *
* newsgroup submission address: b5...@deepthot.org *
* moderator contact address: b5mod-...@deepthot.org *
* personal contact address: dene...@deepthot.org *
Trystero4
My Teacher Told Me, take on it? >>
Loewen's entire point is that the U.S. version of history is distorted and
white-washed. Loewen points out that American History Textbooks ignore the
negative things that the "white-man" have done.
K. D.
"Trystero4" <trys...@aol.comSPAMTHIS> wrote in message
news:20000517143325...@ng-md1.aol.com...
Some would apparently think so. Or have us think so.
I grew up in suburban central NY state. The homeowner three doors up had a
black lawn jockey for many years. It didn't ever dawn on me that it was
racist -- I thought it was just a statue of a person who happened to be
black. He had one of those lawn globes, too, and I didn't attach any
particular meaning to that, either! BTW, I don't know if anyone has any
pictures of the lawn jockey or not.
Let's see the pics of the "no coloreds allowed in town after sundown"
already. If such evidence doesn't exist, or can't be found, well, so be it.
-KD
David Hatunen
Well, duh. History is written by the winner. What else is new?
--
********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@sonic.net) ***********
* Daly City California *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
Arminius
RM Mentock <men...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> I meant, what is the James W. Loewen book, Lies
> My Teacher Told Me, take on it? Is Loewen presenting
> it as a Lie, and if so how is he countering it? And
> if Loewen is using it to counter some Lie, what Lie
> is he countering?
The lie Loewen is referring to is one of omission. Mentions of
lynchings, sundown towns, and the like are noticeably absent from most
high school textbooks.
Loewen's latest book, _Lies Across America_, is a similar critique of
American national monuments. He includes much more detail on sundown
towns in this book.
--
Arminius
A problem is an opportunity to do your best.
--Duke Ellington
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
David Hatunen
Folk as you can get since the word "Lynch" comes from the name of
Mr William Lynch.
Dave "But who was Herr Endloesung?" Hatunen
Arminius
"K. D." <kaye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Let's see the pics of the "no coloreds allowed in town after sundown"
> already. If such evidence doesn't exist, or can't be found, well, so
be it.
James Loewen, _Lies Across America_, offers substantial documentation
of this phenomenon. I am not sure about photos, but enough
documentation to prove the existence of sundown towns by a large
preponderance of the evidence.
David Hatunen
Trystero4 <trys...@aol.comSPAMTHIS> wrote:
>I still don't buy the theory that since things like "no coloreds
>allowed in town after sundown" were "unsavory" and not
>"newsworthy" that it explains why there are no pictures of them.
Now I didn't say there were no pictures; I said they would be hard
to come by.
>If things like that were acceptable many decades back there should
>be plenty of evidence that they existed. There are numerous
>photos of Klan gatherings, blackface shows, "whites only" placards
>etc. Hell you can still buy "Amos and Andy" videos. Is there
>some big conspiracy to destroy all evidence of "sundown town"
>signs?
Furrfu.
David Hatunen
Jay Denebeim <dene...@deepthot.org> wrote:
>In article <8%zU4.15$%c6....@typhoon.sonic.net>,
>David Hatunen <hat...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
>
>>I'm old enough to retroactively regret not going with my friends
>>to Selma and that means I'm old enough to be aware of the
>>trappings of Jim Crow.
>
>Speaking of which, Cheryl and I stopped at Selma on one of our
>trips. Her mom went to the protest and Cheryl thought it would be
>a good thing to help keep her in touch with her mom. We couldn't
>find a thing memorializing the event while we were there. Quaint
>town though.
Not even a mounted fire hose nozzle, eh?
Nathan Tenny
>My Teacher Told Me, take on it? >>
>
>
>white-washed. Loewen points out that American History Textbooks ignore the
>negative things that the "white-man" have done.
That doesn't really answer the question.
We've got a quote out of context from Loewen that shows that he *mentions*
the "sundown towns" story. I can't tell from that quote whether he mentions
it to say that it's true, or that it's one of the lies teachers tell, or
something else entirely.
NT
--
Nathan Tenny | Words I carry in my pocket, where they
Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA | breed like white mice.
<nten...@qualcomm.com> | - Lawrence Durrell
Lee Rudolph
>>And isn't it odd that the Jack Daniels distillery is located in a
>>town called Lynchburg? Isn't that like a town in Germany being
>>called "FinalSolutionVille?"
>>
>>Gerald "folk etymology R us" Belton
>
>Folk as you can get since the word "Lynch" comes from the name of
>Mr William Lynch.
That's *Captain* William Lynch (1742-1820), of Pittsylvania in
Virginia; whereas Lynchburg, Virginia, the original from which
all other Lynchburgs are named, is called after John Lynch,
who established a ferry there in 1757.
Lee "might have been relatives, though" Rudolph
Ian Munro
> Speaking of which, Cheryl and I stopped at Selma on one of our trips.
> Her mom went to the protest and Cheryl thought it would be a good
> thing to help keep her in touch with her mom. We couldn't find a
> thing memorializing the event while we were there. Quaint town
> though.
How long ago was that? A quick jaunt around the web makes it clear that
there are plenty of memorials now.
Ian "do most of my travelling by web" Munro
--
"It isn't a 'line of reasoning'; it's a squiggle of flawed analysis and
erroneous conclusion."--Paraic O'Donnell
David Hatunen
Arminius <armi...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>In article <8fup4t$42va$3...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>,
> "K. D." <kaye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Let's see the pics of the "no coloreds allowed in town after
>> sundown" already. If such evidence doesn't exist, or can't be
>> found, well, so be it.
>
>James Loewen, _Lies Across America_, offers substantial
>documentation of this phenomenon. I am not sure about photos, but
>enough documentation to prove the existence of sundown towns by a
>large preponderance of the evidence.
As someone who was around for segregation and generalized
discrimination I am fascinated by the apparent reluctance of some
posters to accept that the phenomenon existed. On the one hand I am
saddened in sort of Santayanish way, and on the other hand
gladdened that so many now consider it unthinkable.
Drew Lawson
nten...@qualcomm.com writes:
>In article <20000517143919...@ng-md1.aol.com>,
>Trystero4 <trys...@aol.comSPAMTHIS> wrote:
>><< meant, what is the James W. Loewen book, Lies
>>My Teacher Told Me, take on it? >>
>We've got a quote out of context from Loewen that shows that he *mentions*
>the "sundown towns" story. I can't tell from that quote whether he mentions
>it to say that it's true, or that it's one of the lies teachers tell, or
>something else entirely.
Well, the book's not in reach, but having read it, I'm confident
that it is one of his examples of things that are left out of the
sanitized school-house version.
It's really a pretty good book, though unfortunately the author
falls victim to the biases that he derides in the establishment.
I forget the issues, but recall that he delivered a couple "facts"
that I'd seen well debunked.
And, anyway, I was pissed that he stole the title I intended to
use for the book that I haven't started writing yet.
Drew "can't divide by zero, my ass" Lawson
--
|Drew Lawson | If you're not part of the solution |
|dr...@furrfu.com | you're part of the precipitate. |
|http://www.furrfu.com/ | |
Drew Lawson
hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) writes:
>As someone who was around for segregation and generalized
>discrimination I am fascinated by the apparent reluctance of some
>posters to accept that the phenomenon existed. On the one hand I am
>saddened in sort of Santayanish way, and on the other hand
>gladdened that so many now consider it unthinkable.
For me it is a bit of a two sided effect. First of all, I'm young
enough (and middle class enough) that I didn't really see much of
the bad things. We lived where we lived, and most of the people
were white, and no one ever referred to it as a "white neighborhood,"
so I thought the problems were long gone.
Yea, naive, but it was the suburbs.
On the other hand, I've developed strong reactionary filters for
things like the "picnic" and "jig is up" stories that we see
circulating. While I have no doubt that people, and societies,
can do evil things to the powerless, I'm hesitant to accept each
instance of alleged bad doings.
So, I can see how "sundown towns" could be covered up by history,
but I can also see how a dozen *real* towns could become hundreds
of legendary towns.
Drew "proud of the South, but not of every detail" Lawson
Jay Denebeim
Ian Munro <ian....@ualberta.ca> wrote:
>How long ago was that? A quick jaunt around the web makes it clear that
>there are plenty of memorials now.
Couple years ago. Lemme put it this way, we heard of the existance of
stuff from our trusty AAA Map 'n Go, however nothing was to be had at
the tourist center indicating where anything could be found.
Doesn't mean they wern't there, just that there were no references in
the obvious place to go to find stuff like that.
Jay "heck, the garden of eden has signs on the interstate for it"
Denebeim
Olivers
Greenville, Texas, Main Square, Wall sign, "Greenville, Home of the
Blackest Dirt and the Whitest People"
Comanche County, Texas (Northwest Texas, no African Americans, no
Republicans - then) - "N****r, Don't Let The Sun Set On Your Back In
This County!"
Documentation - None
Cites - None
The formalized structure and mechanics of Jim Crow are difficult to
convey to those who have never seen them or comprehended their
complexity and pervasiveness. There were/are in some parts of the South
neighbor communities, one all black, the other all white, while just
down the road would be a Galveston where housing patterns were almost
impossible to distinguish by mapping.
From personal experience, with the exception of an African American
"Upper Middle Class" removed to suburbia (along with some other
racial/ethnic groups of similar income profile), housing patterns seem
far more clearly drawn and defineable today than they were forty years
ago. Jim Crow's not gone, simply unsigned and almost as deeply
ingrained.
--
TMOliver - el pelon sinverguenza
"Alle kunst ist unsonst,
wenn ein Engel in das Kundloch prunst."
Becca Ward
> Let's see the pics of the "no coloreds allowed in town after sundown"
> already. If such evidence doesn't exist, or can't be found, well, so be it.
I'm not certain why you think that only one particular type of evidence is
sufficient to establish the fact that such signs existed. However,
perhaps, if you are truly interested in the issue, you might want to
investigate the account given in Loewen's _Lies My Teacher Told Me,_
mentioned by others elsewhere in this thread, and the following news
articles:
Roberta Scruggs, editorial published in the _Portland Press Herald,_
October 31, 1998, at 7A (Scruggs recalls growing up in rural Alabama,
north of Birmingham, and seeing signs posted about "no blacks after
sundown"); Julian Bolger, "Paradise Lost," _The Guardian,_ October 6, 1998
(Features) at 2 (Bolger interviews former resident of Henryetta, Oklahoma
who recalls signs); Mike Konrad, "Heeding county's history lessons," _St.
Petersburg Times,_ March 9, 1998 at 1 (recalls seeing signs while growing
up in downstate Illinois); Carl Love, "Lake Elsinore's supporting cast
adds to debate," _Press-Enterprise_ (Riverside, California), March 25,
1997 (Local) at B01 (councilmember of Lake Elsinore, CA, recalls seeing
such signs in her hometown in Missouri); Richard Stewart, "Desegregation:
'Nothing's to change in Grand Saline,'" _Houston Chronicle,_ October 17,
1993 (State) at 1 (long-term residents of Grand Saline, Texas, state that
signs were once posted on outskirts of town); Emily Hone, "Time for
bridge-building on both sides?", _Ethnic News-Watch/Sho-Ban News,_ Vol.
15, No. 48, p. 10, December 19, 1991 (Hone reports that town of Blackfoot
once had signs announcing "No Indians Allowed" and "black people were
posted out of town at sundown"); Bill Bond, "Be Sure charter boats are
properly licensed," _Orlando Sentinel Times,_ November 20, 1991 (Lake
Sentinel) at 1 (reporting that in the 1950s, Ocoee in west Orange County,
Florida, had a sign on the outskirts warning blacks to be out of down by
sunset).
Becca Ward
--
Everyone I used to know who can swear in French
is now dead. -- James Pruitt
David Hatunen
Drew Lawson <dr...@furrfu.com> wrote:
>So, I can see how "sundown towns" could be covered up by history,
>but I can also see how a dozen *real* towns could become hundreds
>of legendary towns.
On the other hand, many sundown towns didn't put up signs; they had
other ways of getting the message across.
In the days of Jim Crow, even in the North, there were a lot of
lily-white towns, and the smaller they were the easier they were to
keep that way.
AFol...@webtv.net
hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) wrote:
> In article <03880df4...@usw-ex0104-033.remarq.com>,
> wajohnc <johnNO...@hersham0.demon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> >In article <39224C82...@mindspring.com>, RM Mentock
> ><men...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>Trystero4 wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Adding to my own post... After a brief search the only
> >>> reference to "sundown towns" I could find was in "Lies My
> >>> Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got
> >>> Wrong" by James W. Loewen. "Some small communities in the
> >>> Midwest and West became "sundown" towns, informally threatening
> >>> African Americans with death if they remained overnight" (165)
> >>>
> >>> Hmmmm "some" small communities? Not very specific is it?
> >>
> >>Worse: ambiguous. Is it a Lie, or not? Where did you find this?
> >>I couldn't find it in altavista or google ('cause I couldn't boot
> >>it!)
> >>
> >
> >If you choose to persist with your google search, you'll
> >eventually come across this link:
> >http://www.indianahistory.org/freeman.htm
> >I won't make further comment as it's not really my territory.
>
> Anita Hill is quoted mentioning a sundown town at
> http://www.minorities-jb.com/women/womanpower/anitahill9.html
>
> But these are something that went out of "style" many years before
> the web came about, and it's unlikely that there's much to be found
> on web servers about "sundown towns".
>
>
Out of style, perhaps, but not, alas, entirely vanished. Last
September, a very reliable and level-headed poster on alt.callahans
gave a first-hand account of having encountered a billboard to this
effect in southwestern Missouri as recently as 1994. See:
http://x26.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=529385538
Alan "signs of former times" Follett
Lisa Cech
Lawson) wrote:
(snip)
> So, I can see how "sundown towns" could be covered up by history,
> but I can also see how a dozen *real* towns could become hundreds
>
> Drew "proud of the South, but not of every detail" Lawson
Not just the South, though. And not just against blacks. My mother grew
up in a small town in Delaware. The town has a huge peach orchard, with
the attendant need for manual labor. When the Mexicans were in town for
harvest, they were locked in a barracks building at sundown so as to not
cause anxiety to the delicate white folk. She also told me about
"Colored Town," the other side of the tracks (literally) where all the
black people lived. She said it was simply "known" that blacks stayed in
Colored Town after dark.
I do believe her on this, having seen Colored Town with my own eyes in
the early '70s (although it wasn't as stringent a situation then). And
the Mexicans being locked up has been mentioned by other family members
from the town.
Lisa "Hey, they can't ALL be lying, can they?" Cech
Opus the Penguin
>He had one of those lawn globes, too, and I didn't attach any
>particular meaning to that, either!
What's a lawn globe? Does it have a "particular meaning"?
--
Opus the Penguin
Opus the Penguin
>When I was young and growing up in Warren Ohio our neighboring town
>of Niles had such a "Nigger don't let the sun set on you" sign at
>the city limits.
What did it look like? Was it an official sign or crudely hand-painted or
what?
--
Opus the Penguin (Who really isn't obsessed with whether things are
"official." Honest.)
JoAnne Schmitz
>In article <20000517143919...@ng-md1.aol.com>,
>Trystero4 <trys...@aol.comSPAMTHIS> wrote:
>><< meant, what is the James W. Loewen book, Lies
>>My Teacher Told Me, take on it? >>
>>
>>
>>Loewen's entire point is that the U.S. version of history is
>>distorted and white-washed. Loewen points out that American
>>History Textbooks ignore the negative things that the "white-man"
>>have done.
>
>Well, duh. History is written by the winner. What else is new?
From the title of the book, I'd presume that the point of the book is to inform
previously gullible but now slightly wisening-up young people about the errors
they've been exposed to. Good stuff for the 17-to-25 crowd.
The fact that "history is written by the winner" is not new, but (a) people are
born every minute, most not having that knowledge, and (2) the particular
rewrites are ongoing and worth comment.
Some rewrites may be old hat to you; the specific ones he mentions might be
familiar because someone you know or a friend or teacher thereof read the book
and felt it was worth discussing in class or with friends or doing more research
on.
I'm reminded of the "secret" of the Japanese incendiary balloons of WWII. If I
hear one more time that no one knows about them I don't know if I'll laugh or
cry.
JoAnne "secret Dakini oracle" Schmitz
Dr H
On 17 May 2000, Trystero4 wrote:
}In a post in another NG (history-what-if) someone made a claim that certain
}cities in Northern Michigan advertised themselves as "sundown towns". I wasn't
}exactley sure what the poster was refering to but I assumed it to mean that
}these towns did not allow african-americans in town (or out on the streets)
}after sundown. I have heard similar stories about other locales. A small town
}near my hometown has been rumored to have had a sign placed at the city limits
}advising "coloreds" not to be caught in town after dark. This sign was
}supposed to have been in place as late as the early 1960s. Yet I've never seen
}documentation to verify the rumor. Anyone have any info regarding "sundown
}towns" or warning signs to blacks? Is this a common UL?
I've heard these stories about various towns in Oregon, including Eugene.
The usual line is that these towns had a sundown curfew for blacks, with
violation punishable by arrest and a fine. I haven't actually gone looking
for hard verification of these tales, nor of the possibly apocryphal
story that at least one of the Oregon governors in the late 20s - early 30s
was also active in local KKK activities.
Dr H
Dr H
On Wed, 17 May 2000, Gerald Belton wrote:
}On Wed, 17 May 2000 09:13:03 -0500, "K. D." <kaye...@hotmail.com>
}wrote:
}
}>Do you have any other objective, verifiable evidence? You know, pictures,
}>that sort of thing. Human memory (everyone's) and eye-witness testimony are
}>notoriously faulty at times....
}
}K.D. can be such a meanyhead. Here she is asking for a cite when
}someone has posted a personal anecdote. Oh, the irony.
<sigh> damned if you do; damned if you don't, K.D.
afu: inconsistency 'R' us...
Dr H
David Hatunen
Opus the Penguin <opusthe...@micronet.net> wrote:
>David Hatunen wrote:
>>When I was young and growing up in Warren Ohio our neighboring town
>>of Niles had such a "Nigger don't let the sun set on you" sign at
>>the city limits.
>
>What did it look like? Was it an official sign or crudely hand-painted or
>what?
It was a bit worn even then, and I assume it was quasi-official,
perhaps even left over from the Klan days in the midwest, which
would have been the 1920s; since I'm talking early 1950s the sign
wouldn't have been all that old.
It was obviously made by a real sign painter in any case.
Dr H
On 17 May 2000, Bruce Tindall wrote:
}David Hatunen <hat...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
}>When I was young and growing up in Warren Ohio our neighboring town
}>of Niles had such a "Nigger don't let the sun set on you" sign at
}>the city limits.
}
}This gives me the opportunity to ask a partially off-topic question:
}
}There was a science-fiction novel published some time before 1972,
}probably considerably before then, set in the Great Plains of the
}U.S. in a world where people with paranormal abilities -- mind-
}readers -- were a persecuted minority, disparagingly referred to
}as "parries", and many small towns had signs reading "Parry, don't
}let the sun set on you here." Does anyone know the title or author
}of this book?
}
}ObUrbanFolkloreRelevance: at the time the book was written, either
}the existence or the legend of the existence of "sundown towns" was
}well-known enough to enable the author to use this device in his
}book and to assume that the reader would know what he was referring to.
Ack! This is going to drive me crazy because I'm pretty sure I
read that story, but I can't remember title or author. I have a
suspicion that it might have been something by Heinlein, but it
could as easily been someone writing around the same time in a
similar style. Could take days to dig it up among the paperbacks...
Dr H
Dr H
On 17 May 2000, Trystero4 wrote:
}<< meant, what is the James W. Loewen book, Lies
}My Teacher Told Me, take on it? >>
}
}Loewen's entire point is that the U.S. version of history is distorted and
}white-washed. Loewen points out that American History Textbooks ignore the
}negative things that the "white-man" have done.
True enough, but hardly news. Try to find any reference to the
Haymarket riot in any textbook below the college level. Or a
mention of Sacco and Vanzetti as anything other than a footnote,
for that matter.
Dr H
Paul Linden
More a case of "damned if you don't; damned if you don't," unless I missed where
K. D. gave a cite.
Paul
Drew Lawson
jsch...@qis.net writes:
[re: Lies My Teacher Told Me]
>From the title of the book, I'd presume that the point of the book is to inform
>previously gullible but now slightly wisening-up young people about the errors
>they've been exposed to. Good stuff for the 17-to-25 crowd.
It's been a couple years since I read it, but it is a little bit
that and a little bit a call for action. Without coming off as a
konspiracy l00n, he puts in a bit of a "we should change how we
teach history" spin.
Personally, I think it would go well in an introductory teacher
certification course to "raise consiousness" of what types of things
educators face.
Drew "you mean Anastasia *didn't* have talking animals?" Lawson
Nathan Tenny
Dr H <hiaw...@efn.org> wrote:
> Try to find any reference to the
> Haymarket riot in any textbook below the college level.
Really? I got the Haymarket riot in high-school US history (I don't
remember what the textbook was) and had just assumed it was standard fare.
Including it seems like the path of least resistance if one's going to pay
any mind to the labor movement of that time a-tall---but perhaps typical
classes blow off the whole subject?
Trystero4
Haymarket riot in any textbook below the college level. Or a
mention of Sacco and Vanzetti as anything other than a footnote,
for that matter.
Dr H<<<
I taught one quarter of 11th grade US history...and we did cover the Sacco
Vanzetti case as an example of the "return to normalcy" paranoia. And I do
recall reading about the Haymarket riot as a high school student. Not sure if
it was in a textbook though...
Trystero4
>>As someone who was around for segregation and generalized
discrimination I am fascinated by the apparent reluctance of some
posters to accept that the phenomenon existed. On the one hand I am
saddened in sort of Santayanish way, and on the other hand
gladdened that so many now consider it unthinkable.<<
I accept that the phenomemon of racial discrimination existed and still does.
And I'm sure that somewhere there were towns that had "no
coloreds/niggers/blacks/etc" signs posted. Yet it seems that there is a lot
more anecdotal evidence out there than concrete documentation. In my original
post I refered to a town nearby that was rumored to have had such a sign (Taft,
California). I've heard that rumor for at least 20 years but I have never seen
any steadfast evidence to support it. Does that mean that these signs did not
exist anywhere? By no means. I am well aware of "Jim Crow" laws, lynchings,
racially restricted communities , and the like. And I am sickend by all of it.
Defacto segregation is still in effect in many many areas of America. Racism
is a vile thing. My doubting the proliferation of "sundown towns" should not
imply that I cannot accept the idea that racial discrimination was a widespread
phenomenon. I was simply pointing out that since there are so many claims out
there concerning "sundown towns" without factual documentation some of them
must be ULs or at least exaggerations.
Don Middendorf
>
> In a post in another NG (history-what-if) someone made a claim that certain
> cities in Northern Michigan advertised themselves as "sundown towns". I wasn't
> exactley sure what the poster was refering to but I assumed it to mean that
> these towns did not allow african-americans in town (or out on the streets)
> after sundown. I have heard similar stories about other locales. A small town
> near my hometown has been rumored to have had a sign placed at the city limits
> advising "coloreds" not to be caught in town after dark. This sign was
> supposed to have been in place as late as the early 1960s. Yet I've never seen
> documentation to verify the rumor. Anyone have any info regarding "sundown
> towns" or warning signs to blacks? Is this a common UL?
I'm not at all sure it's status is entirely legendary. I can remember
this being said of a great many smallish (20,000 or less all white[2])
towns in central Indiana (and southeastern IN) the attitude, if not the
sign was surely present into (yesterday? definitely into the 80s) and
people have many times told me about such signs, the alarming thing to
me anyway, is that these stories were often related by people who seemed
*proud* that their town had, until recently had one of these signs. I
have similar signs on private property into the 80s. [1]
1: These had no direct threat of lynching, but they were of the "black
man don't let the sun go down on you in this town", or "no blacks"
variety.
2: There are lots of these, for assorted values of 100% white. [3]
3: A legendary tale around these parts is that the all white makeup of
these communities is one of the things that has attracted so much
Japanese industry to these parts. (the implication that the Japanese are
extremely racist towards non-white Americans.)
Medieval Knievel
"Drew Lawson" <dr...@furrfu.com> wrote in message
> So, I can see how "sundown towns" could be covered up by history,
> but I can also see how a dozen *real* towns could become hundreds
> of legendary towns.
In Southwestern Oklahoma, there are several small towns (Marlow, Snyder)
where it's a "known fact" that they were sundown towns, although no one
seems to be able to verify this conclusively. However, in many of these
places, there are businesses to this day with names like "Karl's Kountry
Kitchen" or "Kathy's Kut and Kurl." I've seem them, but I am not sure what
the connotations are, aside from the obvious acronym. It's also a "known
fact" that the Confederate flag is displayed in business windows in this
area of the country to give the message that the business of non-whites is
not wanted. FWIW.
K. D.
"Opus the Penguin" <opusthe...@micronet.net> wrote in message
news:8fv22...@news2.newsguy.com...
> K. D. wrote:
> >He had one of those lawn globes, too, and I didn't attach any
> >particular meaning to that, either!
>
> What's a lawn globe? Does it have a "particular meaning"?
A lawn globe -- a shiny, globe-shaped thing, probably about 18 inches in
diameter, resting on a concrete or plastic pedastle -- people put them on
their lawns or in their landscaping as "accessories." (?)
They were big in the 50's and early 60's, then kind of faded away, only to
be making a come-back of late (so I'm told).
No meaning that I ever knew of, racist or otherwise.
-KD
K. D.
"Dr H" <hiaw...@efn.org> wrote in message
> <sigh> damned if you do; damned if you don't, K.D.
>
> afu: inconsistency 'R' us...
Yeah, that be right, Dr H.
-KD
K. D.
"Dr H" <hiaw...@efn.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSU.4.05.100051...@garcia.efn.org...
>
> On 17 May 2000, Trystero4 wrote:
>
> }<< meant, what is the James W. Loewen book, Lies
> }My Teacher Told Me, take on it? >>
> }
> }Loewen's entire point is that the U.S. version of history is distorted
and
> }white-washed. Loewen points out that American History Textbooks ignore
the
> }negative things that the "white-man" have done.
Piggybacking here.
I don't know about that -- I considered the book I read in American History
about the Scottsboro boys in Alabama (tried and convicted on a trumped-up
rape charge of a white woman) to be pretty clearly negative against white
folk....
-KD
Medieval Knievel
"K. D." <kaye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> I don't know about that -- I considered the book I read in American
History
> about the Scottsboro boys in Alabama (tried and convicted on a trumped-up
> rape charge of a white woman) to be pretty clearly negative against white
> folk....
But the Scottsboro example is so obvious, and the history books I had as a
kid seemed to completely ignore the brutality of slavery and American
racism, making it seem as though slavery was not all that bad.
--
***********************************************
Medieval Knievel
ICQ #26667824
Remove the FOILHAT to reply by e-mail
aa# 1552 ULC Ordained Minister
sig file is purposefully annoying. do not eat, do not get in eyes.
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**************************************************
Dan Drake
> On Wed, 17 May 2000 18:50:50 GMT, hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) wrote:
>
> >In article <20000517143919...@ng-md1.aol.com>,
> >Trystero4 <trys...@aol.comSPAMTHIS> wrote:
> >><< meant, what is the James W. Loewen book, Lies
> >>My Teacher Told Me, take on it? >>
> >>
> >>
> >>...
>
> From the title of the book, I'd presume that the point of the book is to inform
> previously gullible but now slightly wisening-up young people about the errors
> they've been exposed to. Good stuff for the 17-to-25 crowd.
Not just them. Even adult USAian readers of this group would be likely to
find new stuff in it. Not that you necessarily _need_ it, since you
already know how much of our officially taught history is bunk; but
perhaps people can think they know how bad it is, and be mistaken.
I know that at least one high school teacher is using it in her courses,
because she's my cousin, but I doubt whether she has much company.
--
Dan Drake
d...@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/index.html
Dan Drake
> In article <8fus4d$a...@qualcomm.com>
> nten...@qualcomm.com writes:
> >In article <20000517143919...@ng-md1.aol.com>,
> >Trystero4 <trys...@aol.comSPAMTHIS> wrote:
> >><< meant, what is the James W. Loewen book, Lies
> >>My Teacher Told Me, take on it? >>
>
> >...
>
> It's really a pretty good book, though unfortunately the author
> falls victim to the biases that he derides in the establishment.
> I forget the issues, but recall that he delivered a couple "facts"
> that I'd seen well debunked.
I recall that he accepts some large numbers for the pre-Columbian
population of North America, which definitely appear wrong on the best
available evidence. It's a popular failing; the millions of
pre-agricultural people who supposedly lived in California before the evil
missionaries came and killed them off must have had remarkable ways of
supporting themselves on 150,000 square miles, of which a large part is
mountain and desert; in other places the anthro folklore suggests 1 per
square mile if the land is good.
Nonetheless, a very good book.
Arthur Wohlwill
>From: "K. D." <kaye...@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Sundown Towns?
>Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:25:53 -0500
Lawn Globes AKA Lawn Balls AKA Gazing Balls(?) apparently lack the proper
documentation to cross US borders--at least most of my foreign (including
Canadian) friends seem to unaware of their existence. Web searches for lawn
balls (I did this just the other day) pull up many garden supply places which
refer to them as gazing balls. They seem to come in many diameters and colors.
They may ward off evil.
Arthur Wohlwill adwo...@UIC.EDU
McCaffertA
Hatunen) writes:
>Well, duh. History is written by the winner. What else is new?
Nahh. We gotta go through this again?
"Leaving aside the political landmine here, lemme say that "History is
written by those who win wars" is, barring genocidal anihilation of the losing
side, a complete, utter, crock. Winners have little emotional need to refight
battles already won in life, but the losers will play "what if" unto thrice the
third generation. Southerners keep TWBTS alive; and when was the last time you
saw a book on the "45 from the Hannoverian viewpoint?"
Mr. Boswell, I believe it's your turn now.
RM Mentock
> I've heard these stories about various towns in Oregon, including Eugene.
> The usual line is that these towns had a sundown curfew for blacks, with
> violation punishable by arrest and a fine. I haven't actually gone looking
> for hard verification of these tales, nor of the possibly apocryphal
> story that at least one of the Oregon governors in the late 20s - early 30s
> was also active in local KKK activities.
Colorado politics was heavily influenced by the KKK.
Stapleton Airport was named after a mayor of Denver
who was a member of the Klan. "As the Denver Post
wrote, '..beyond any doubt the KKK is the largest
and most cohesive, most efficiently organized political
force in the state…'"[1] The governor was KKK, also.
--
RM Mentock
[1] http://www.archives.state.co.us/govs/morley.html
Ignorance? What's that?
http://sentient.home.mindspring.com/dan/
K. D.
"Arthur Wohlwill" <adwo...@uic.edu> wrote in message
> Lawn Globes AKA Lawn Balls AKA Gazing Balls(?) apparently lack the proper
> documentation to cross US borders--at least most of my foreign (including
> Canadian) friends seem to unaware of their existence. Web searches for
lawn
> balls (I did this just the other day)
You did this just the other day? Hmmmm, now *that* is interesting!
Personal anecdote warning: On the subject of lawn ornamentation, I just
purchased a mating pair (?) of pink flamingos at the local Wal-Mart. Two
for about eight bucks, which compared quite favorably with the approximately
$25 for the slightly larger and admittedly nicer set at the local concrete
and assorted lawn ornament store (which also has lawn globes). Check it out
in the lawn and garden section of your local WalMart.
The flamingos are my statement against the self-appointed aesthetic police
of the neighborhood. It was either that, or the plywood lawn art depicting,
from the rear, a fat woman bending over.
-KD
Opus the Penguin
>Personal anecdote warning: On the subject of lawn ornamentation, I just
>purchased a mating pair (?) of pink flamingos at the local Wal-Mart. Two
>for about eight bucks, which compared quite favorably with the
>approximately $25 for the slightly larger and admittedly nicer set at the
>local concrete and assorted lawn ornament store (which also has lawn
>globes). Check it out in the lawn and garden section of your local WalMart.
>
>The flamingos are my statement against the self-appointed aesthetic police
>of the neighborhood. It was either that, or the plywood lawn art
>depicting, from the rear, a fat woman bending over.
<chortle> They say some people are different off Usenet than on. But this is
humorously consistent with your online afu persona where you have a big
smiley on your virtual front lawn.
I got a kick out of it anyway.
--
Opus the Penguin
Andrea Jones
<snip>
>In Southwestern Oklahoma, there are several small towns (Marlow, Snyder)
>where it's a "known fact" that they were sundown towns, although no one
>seems to be able to verify this conclusively. However, in many of these
>places, there are businesses to this day with names like "Karl's Kountry
>Kitchen" or "Kathy's Kut and Kurl." I've seem them, but I am not sure
what
>the connotations are, aside from the obvious acronym. It's also a "known
>fact" that the Confederate flag is displayed in business windows in this
>area of the country to give the message that the business of non-whites is
>not wanted. FWIW.
I would be careful of branding all businesses with the bizarrely spelled
names as "racist" though. Cutesy ass spellings are rather commonplace in
certain locales, and there are places like Sk*nhead's Breakfast House of
the South in Paducah, KY. It's an excellent place to eat breakfast, and
there are no neo-N*z* affiliations, the original owner was simply cue-ball
bald and had acquired the charming nickname "Sk*nhead" with which he then
christened his restaurant. Sure, the name looks godawful to those not
accustomed to it, but it's not really as bad as it looks.
Andrea "be sure to try the biscuits and gravy" Jones
--
". . . ordinary people will do extraordinary things out
of honour, and duty, and love, and . . . courage
is something you don't know you have until you need it."
--Paul Tomblin
K. D.
"Opus the Penguin" <opusthe...@micronet.net>
> <chortle> They say some people are different off Usenet than on. But this
is
> humorously consistent with your online afu persona where you have a big
> smiley on your virtual front lawn.
>
> I got a kick out of it anyway.
I appreciate your observation, and even partially concede. I've never been
one to be intimidated by know-it-alls and buttinskies, especially ones who
are idiots. Especially when they try to tell *me* what is appropriate and
what is not. Eh hem.
However, I think you will find that I have rarely (if ever) used a smiley
here in AFU. That's Dr H's shtick!
-KD
Nick Spalding
> Personal anecdote warning: On the subject of lawn ornamentation, I just
> purchased a mating pair (?) of pink flamingos at the local Wal-Mart. Two
> for about eight bucks, which compared quite favorably with the approximately
> $25 for the slightly larger and admittedly nicer set at the local concrete
> and assorted lawn ornament store (which also has lawn globes). Check it out
> in the lawn and garden section of your local WalMart.
>
> The flamingos are my statement against the self-appointed aesthetic police
> of the neighborhood. It was either that, or the plywood lawn art depicting,
> from the rear, a fat woman bending over.
Full marks!
--
Nick Spalding
RM Mentock
>
> K. D. wrote:
> >The flamingos are my statement against the self-appointed aesthetic police
> >of the neighborhood. It was either that, or the plywood lawn art
> >depicting, from the rear, a fat woman bending over.
>
> <chortle> They say some people are different off Usenet than on. But this is
> humorously consistent with your online afu persona where you have a big
> smiley on your virtual front lawn.
I thought those smileys were being dropped on the sidewalk
--
RM Mentock
Just 69 and I don't mind dying
Who do you love?
Monte Davis
>A lawn globe -- a shiny, globe-shaped thing, probably about 18 inches in
>diameter...
>
>No meaning that I ever knew of, racist or otherwise.
They encourage you to reflect.
David Hatunen
K. D. <kaye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Personal anecdote warning: On the subject of lawn ornamentation,
>I just purchased a mating pair (?) of pink flamingos at the local
>Wal-Mart. Two for about eight bucks, which compared quite
>favorably with the approximately $25 for the slightly larger and
>admittedly nicer set at the local concrete and assorted lawn
>ornament store (which also has lawn globes). Check it out in the
>lawn and garden section of your local WalMart.
If a flaimingo disappears, don't be surprised if you start getting
photos of it from all over the world. Flamingos sometimes take
round the world trips.
--
********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@sonic.net) ***********
* Daly City California *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
Lee Rudolph
>If a flaimingo disappears, don't be surprised if you start getting
>photos of it from all over the world. Flamingos sometimes take
>round the world trips.
A lawn flamingo (somewhat the worse for exposure to years of sun,
or so it appears from a distance) has fairly recently taken up
residence in the marshy headwaters of the local estuary, where
egrets, herons, swans, and ospreys have previously ruled the roost.
I don't know if it's had any photos taken yet.
Lee "I'm not much of a bird photographer, myself, but I have to say
I'm looking forward to developing the snapshots I took last week
when four buzzards decided to rest on the railing around the
flat roof above my office" Rudolph
Medieval Knievel
"Andrea Jones" <aegi...@msn.com> wrote in message
> I would be careful of branding all businesses with the bizarrely spelled
> names as "racist" though. Cutesy ass spellings are rather commonplace in
> certain locales
Yes, and I think I noted that it wasn't all that clear what the connotations
are. I wonder why someone would name a place "Kar Kleen" if not perhaps for
the attention that the funny spelling receives.
David Martin
>
> Lee "I'm not much of a bird photographer, myself, but I have to say
> I'm looking forward to developing the snapshots I took last week
> when four buzzards decided to rest on the railing around the
> flat roof above my office" Rudolph
Perhaps you should think about moving about the office more
frequently.
David "dead meat" Martin
DAL
grocery store in my town which advertises "Cuntry-Style
Chiken".I suppose given the horror stories I read about
declining standards of education that this might be mere
misspellings, but I doubt it.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
JoAnne Schmitz
<midde...@mad.scientist.com> wrote:
>3: A legendary tale around these parts is that the all white makeup of
>these communities is one of the things that has attracted so much
>Japanese industry to these parts.
Those Japanese sure like their kabuki.
JoAnne "gold mime" Schmitz
JoAnne Schmitz
<malcolmxfi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Drew Lawson" <dr...@furrfu.com> wrote in message
>
>> So, I can see how "sundown towns" could be covered up by history,
>> but I can also see how a dozen *real* towns could become hundreds
>> of legendary towns.
>
>In Southwestern Oklahoma, there are several small towns (Marlow, Snyder)
>where it's a "known fact" that they were sundown towns, although no one
>seems to be able to verify this conclusively. However, in many of these
>places, there are businesses to this day with names like "Karl's Kountry
>Kitchen" or "Kathy's Kut and Kurl." I've seem them, but I am not sure what
>the connotations are, aside from the obvious acronym. It's also a "known
>fact" that the Confederate flag is displayed in business windows in this
>area of the country to give the message that the business of non-whites is
>not wanted. FWIW.
Now I don't know what to think of the Cracker Barrel's "Kuntry Kornbread."
JoAnne "well actually I do, it's not that great" Schmitz
John Francis
DAL <pacdiN...@iland.net.invalid> wrote:
>Speaking of cutesy, would-be 'rural' spellings, there's a
>grocery store in my town which advertises "Cuntry-Style
>Chiken"
I'll have the "Extra pussy", please.
Karen J. Cravens
D>Speaking of cutesy, would-be 'rural' spellings, there's a
D>grocery store in my town which advertises "Cuntry-Style
D>Chiken".I suppose given the horror stories I read about
D>declining standards of education that this might be mere
D>misspellings, but I doubt it.
Some of our local convenience stores (Texaco, I think) have recently
changed their names to "Kum'N'Go." The usual response is "What *were*
they thinking?"
--
Karen J. Cravens sil...@phoenyx.net
Flagg
>
>> Lawn Globes AKA Lawn Balls AKA Gazing Balls(?) apparently
lack the proper
>> documentation to cross US borders--at least most of my
foreign (including
>> Canadian) friends seem to unaware of their existence. Web
searches for
>lawn
>> balls (I did this just the other day)
>
>You did this just the other day? Hmmmm, now *that* is
interesting!
>
ornamentation, I just
>purchased a mating pair (?) of pink flamingos at the local Wal-
Mart. Two
>for about eight bucks, which compared quite favorably with the
approximately
>$25 for the slightly larger and admittedly nicer set at the
local concrete
>and assorted lawn ornament store (which also has lawn globes).
Check it out
>in the lawn and garden section of your local WalMart.
>
aesthetic police
>of the neighborhood. It was either that, or the plywood lawn
art depicting,
>from the rear, a fat woman bending over.
>
>
>>
>
upon moving into my new (slightly used) house several years ago
i inherited some lovely lawn gnomes(pottery) and 2 smashingly
pink flamingo's.
the lawn gnomes made excellent golf tee's for a while(FORE!!!)
the flamingo's i painted black (no racist intent) and stuck back
out on the front lawn. new neighboors took months b4 they
bothered me.
rf
Drew Lawson
"Medieval Knievel" <malcolmxfi...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>"Andrea Jones" <aegi...@msn.com> wrote in message
>
>> I would be careful of branding all businesses with the bizarrely spelled
>> names as "racist" though. Cutesy ass spellings are rather commonplace in
>> certain locales
>
>Yes, and I think I noted that it wasn't all that clear what the connotations
>are. I wonder why someone would name a place "Kar Kleen" if not perhaps for
>the attention that the funny spelling receives.
I can think of at least two reasons:
1) Li'l Abner cuteness (which is sort of what you acknowledge)
2) Trademark. You can trademark Kar Kleen but probably not Car
Clean.
Drew "think i'll go shop at the Wherehouse" Lawson
--
|Drew Lawson | If you're not part of the solution |
|dr...@furrfu.com | you're part of the precipitate. |
|http://www.furrfu.com/ | |
Drew Lawson
adwo...@uic.edu (Arthur Wohlwill) writes:
>In article <8fvos2$2vqm$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com> "K. D." <kaye...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>A lawn globe -- a shiny, globe-shaped thing, probably about 18 inches in
>Lawn Globes AKA Lawn Balls AKA Gazing Balls(?) apparently lack the proper
For anyone included to seek them out, I've also seen them marketed
as "Victorian gazing balls." I believe this is using "Victorian"
as a synonym for "fancy and/or shiny."
Drew "but what are victorious gazing balls?" Lawson
Gerald Belton
> True enough, but hardly news. Try to find any reference to the
> Haymarket riot in any textbook below the college level. Or a
> mention of Sacco and Vanzetti as anything other than a footnote,
> for that matter.
My high school Studies in American Culture[1] class spent a week on
Sacco and Vanzetti. This would have been Baton Rouge, Louisiana, Tara
High School, 1972-73. It led into an extensive debate on the jury
system and the appeals process.
Gerald "Thanks, Mrs. Merriwether and Mrs. Toepfer" Belton
[1] Studies in American Culture - a class where we found an actual use
for those classrooms with the removable walls. It was a two-hour
class, and combined American History with American Literature. It was
the most fun I ever had in a classroom, and I think I learned more in
that class than any other.
RM Mentock
> Now I don't know what to think of the Cracker Barrel's "Kuntry Kornbread."
With hunny buttr
ascorti
jfra...@dungeon.engr.sgi.com (John Francis) wrote:
>>Speaking of cutesy, would-be 'rural' spellings, there's a
>>grocery store in my town which advertises "Cuntry-Style
>>Chiken"
>
>I'll have the "Extra pussy", please.
Well, thank you for making me blow coffee all over my
monitor.... :-)
JJ Lipari
The battle against hideous bad taste is never ending.
JJ
K. D. <kaye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8g024l$3po6$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
proper
(including
> > Canadian) friends seem to unaware of their existence. Web searches for
> lawn
> > balls (I did this just the other day)
>
> You did this just the other day? Hmmmm, now *that* is interesting!
>
> Personal anecdote warning: On the subject of lawn ornamentation, I just
Deborah Brown
><tin...@panix.com> writes
>>There was a science-fiction novel published some time before 1972,
>>probably considerably before then, set in the Great Plains of the
>>U.S. in a world where people with paranormal abilities -- mind-
>>readers -- were a persecuted minority, disparagingly referred to
>>as "parries", and many small towns had signs reading "Parry, don't
>>let the sun set on you here." Does anyone know the title or author
>>of this book?
Lizz Holmans wrote:
> Zenna Henderson wrote a couple of books about The People.
With that insistence on accuracy that irritates my family and friends,
I must note that I don't believe Zenna Henderson's The People was the
same story as Bruce was referencing. The People *were* psionic (or
psychic if you prefer) but they were also aliens who were in hiding
from the human populace.
I seem to recall another story (not in The People series) that had
similar subject matter, but I don't think that's the story Bruce meant
either.
Deborah "Pedantry R Us" Brown
--
*********************************************************************
Children are Mother Nature's way of telling you to lose weight.
Visit me at http://members.tripod.com/Anarchy_Acre/Home.html
(last update 12/24/99)
*********************************************************************
McCaffertA
>Personal anecdote warning: On the subject of lawn ornamentation, I just
>purchased a mating pair (?) of pink flamingos at the local Wal-Mart. Two
>for about eight bucks, which compared quite favorably with the approximately
>$25 for the slightly larger and admittedly nicer set at the local concrete
>and assorted lawn ornament store (which also has lawn globes). Check it out
>in the lawn and garden section of your local WalMart.
>
>The flamingos are my statement against the self-appointed aesthetic police
>of the neighborhood. It was either that, or the plywood lawn art depicting,
>from the rear, a fat woman bending over.
Advertizing is off-topic, Mammalina.
Carole Duzan
>
<snip>
> Not just the South, though. And not just against blacks. My mother grew
> up in a small town in Delaware. The town has a huge peach orchard, with
> the attendant need for manual labor. When the Mexicans were in town for
> harvest, they were locked in a barracks building at sundown so as to not
> cause anxiety to the delicate white folk. She also told me about
> "Colored Town," the other side of the tracks (literally) where all the
> black people lived. She said it was simply "known" that blacks stayed in
> Colored Town after dark.
>
> I do believe her on this, having seen Colored Town with my own eyes in
> the early '70s (although it wasn't as stringent a situation then). And
> the Mexicans being locked up has been mentioned by other family members
> from the town.
>
> Lisa "Hey, they can't ALL be lying, can they?" Cech
A few years back, I took the "Underground Tour" in Pendleton, Oregon.
This consisted of walking through rooms that are below ground level in
the downtown area of Pendleton. The tour guide claimed that the
"underground city" had been built by the Chinese population (that had
been brought in to build the railroad). He also said that they were
subject to being shot if they appeared above-ground after dark.
Along the same lines, I know several people here in Richland,
Washington, who claim to have seen the sign that used to be on the
bridge over the Columbia River between Kennewick and Pasco. I don't
remember the exact wording, but it was something to the effect that
non-white folks should be back in Pasco by sundown.
cd
David Hatunen
Carole Duzan <cdu...@tricity.wsu.edu> wrote:
>Along the same lines, I know several people here in Richland,
>Washington, who claim to have seen the sign that used to be on the
>bridge over the Columbia River between Kennewick and Pasco. I
>don't remember the exact wording, but it was something to the
>effect that non-white folks should be back in Pasco by sundown.
Surely that means some older bridge than the cable-stayed bridge?
Was there an older bridge?
Medieval Knievel
"Karen J. Cravens" <silve...@phoenyx.net> wrote in message
> Some of our local convenience stores (Texaco, I think) have recently
> changed their names to "Kum'N'Go." The usual response is "What *were*
> they thinking?"
Two that I saw on my last journey through the Texas panhandle were "Ho-made
pies," which led to a lengthy and hilarious 3 AM dialogue between my wife
and I about the pimp on hard times making his "ho" bake to make ends meet,
and the "B & M Cafe" which we created a ersatz menu for that featured bran
flakes and prunes as staples.
fish...@nerve.com
K. D. <kaye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>"Opus the Penguin" <opusthe...@micronet.net> wrote in message
>news:8fv22...@news2.newsguy.com...
>
>No meaning that I ever knew of, racist or otherwise.
>
I had one at my last apartment (upstairs neighbor liked a mild bit of garden kitsch),
and learned it was good for certain things such as, seeing what was coming while
entering or exiting the driveway, seeing the postman arrive while looking out the
window in the other direction. I came to think of it as sort of a security mirror [1]
for the lawn.
Regards,
james "or for seeing up kilts" m
1. Convex mirror used to provide a fisheye view of shoplifters.
K. D.
<fish...@nerve.com> wrote in message
> window in the other direction. I came to think of it as sort of a
security mirror
> for the lawn
Interesting observation. And who says you can't learn anything on AFU?
> james "or for seeing up kilts"
Dare I ask whose kilts?
Steve Smith
> I don't have the column to hand, but while on the one
> hand it's true that records, photographs, and so forth do
> in fact exist, it's also true that people today aren't
> proud of this sort of thing, and it could easily fail to
> turn up in a search of mainstream contemporary media.
>
> Andrew "" Reid
Especially in the North. Essentially all of the photos I've seen were
taken by Northerners in the South. "Lookit the stoopid rednecks!".
Northerners have never liked to admit that they are just as recist as
the Southerners, if not more so. At least in the South, the rules are
clear.
--
Steve Smith s...@aginc.net
Agincourt Computing http://www.aginc.net
"Truth is stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense."
Steve Smith
> This gives me the opportunity to ask a partially off-topic question:
>
> There was a science-fiction novel published some time before 1972,
> probably considerably before then, set in the Great Plains of the
> U.S. in a world where people with paranormal abilities -- mind-
> readers -- were a persecuted minority, disparagingly referred to
> as "parries", and many small towns had signs reading "Parry, don't
> let the sun set on you here." Does anyone know the title or author
> of this book?
Sounds like "Sentinels from Space", by Eric Frank Russel. It was
(ahem!) not one of Russel's better efforts.
Lorrill Buyens
Guinness Book of World Records, "K. D." <kaye...@hotmail.com> ate
seventeen helpings of lutefisk, then belched:
>My earlier point being that memory is faulty. Pictures and other objective
>documentation are much less open to interpretation, memory revision, etc.
So where're your pictures of the "no Jews" charter your husband
mentioned?
Lorrill "Get a Klue, Dear" Buyens
--
| Doctor Fraud |Always believe six|
|Mad Inventor & Purveyor of Pseudopsychology |impossible things |
| Weird Science at Bargain Rates |before breakfast. |
Support the Jayne Hitchcock HELP Fund
http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/6172/helpjane.htm
Becca Ward
> On Wed, 17 May 2000 11:58:18 -0500, in an attempt to get into the
> Guinness Book of World Records, "K. D." <kaye...@hotmail.com> ate
> seventeen helpings of lutefisk, then belched:
>
> >My earlier point being that memory is faulty. Pictures and other objective
> >documentation are much less open to interpretation, memory revision, etc.
>
> So where're your pictures of the "no Jews" charter your husband
> mentioned?
Not that I particularly care to be defending K.D., but why would she
present evidence to support a claim made by someone else, when she herself
expressed skepticism of that claim?
Becca Ward
--
Everyone I used to know who can swear in French
is now dead. -- James Pruitt
K. D.
"Steve Smith" <sgs...@acm.org> wrote in message
> Especially in the North. Essentially all of the photos I've seen were
> taken by Northerners in the South. "Lookit the stoopid rednecks!".
>
> Northerners have never liked to admit that they are just as recist as
> the Southerners, if not more so. At least in the South, the rules are
> clear.
As a transplanted northerner, this has always irked me. I grew up in NY
when, during the 1960's, there were anti-desegregation protests in Boston --
people lieing down in front of the school buses rather than have their white
children attend school with blacks. History is rife with discriminatory
laws and practices throughout the north and midwest -- blacks being barred
from hotels, restaurants, even professional organizations. Didn't all the
big northeastern and midwest cities have teams in the Negro leagues
(baseball)? What? The southern United States collectively had a gun to all
their heads, in the biggest baseball markets in the US, forcing the owners
not to hire blacks on the white teams?
Maybe someone can help me here -- I recall hearing (on public radio) a
biography of a certain black man whose parents had been slaves. IIRC, he
became an engineer (receiving his college education in the south -- what a
concept.), and eventually made his way to Michigan (again, IIRC), where he
was legally barred from entering the engineering profession due to his race.
What galled me is that the point was emphasized that his parents had been
slaves (oh, horrors!), but the fact that he was barred from the engineering
profession in the north was glossed over.
Another factor is, of course, that the south (as a whole) has historically
had a higher percentage of blacks than many areas in the north, and that
most southern whites had had much more real-life contact with them -- even
before desegregation! My experience has been that many high-minded northern
whites who rail against racial discrimination have never lived near or gone
to school with any blacks.
I remember when, in the mid-60's, the first black family moved into my lily
white school district in central New York. There wasn't any blood shed, but
it was not a pretty picture! However, it did help blunt the historical
fears about Jews moving into the neighborhood! In the meantime, the Poles
and Italians could continue to look down on one another. One of my English
teachers in high school, ethnically Italian (the majority) incredibly
regularly made snide remarks about the Poles (my father's lineage) in front
of the class!
-KD
K. D.
"Lorrill Buyens" <buyensl@prime*SPAMMERS.GO.HOME*net.com> wrote in message
news:3924de01...@news.primenet.com...
> On Wed, 17 May 2000 11:58:18 -0500, in an attempt to get into the
> Guinness Book of World Records, "K. D." <kaye...@hotmail.com> ate
> seventeen helpings of lutefisk, then belched:
>
> >My earlier point being that memory is faulty. Pictures and other
objective
> >documentation are much less open to interpretation, memory revision, etc.
>
> So where're your pictures of the "no Jews" charter your husband
> mentioned?
I don't have any pictures -- I think that was part of my point. Perhaps you
did not interpret, fully, that I was offering my husband's testimony as
another unsubstantiated variation on alleged discriminatory laws of the
past -- I that I was hoping someone else had some evidence to verify or
disprove.
Uh, someone help me out here (I deleted my copy of my post) -- I thought I
implied or stated that I always considered the rumor about Jews being
excluded to be in the same category as the rumors about Lincoln being buried
alive -- just so much Midwestern lore.
<sigh -- things haven't gotten any easier>
In other words, until someone shows me some objective historical
documentation, I don't believe any of those stories! Isn't that supposed to
be one of the AFU theme songs?
-KD
Deborah Stevenson
On Fri, 19 May 2000, Steve Smith wrote:
> Andrew Reid wrote:
>
> > I don't have the column to hand, but while on the one
> > hand it's true that records, photographs, and so forth do
> > in fact exist, it's also true that people today aren't
> > proud of this sort of thing, and it could easily fail to
> > turn up in a search of mainstream contemporary media.
>
> Especially in the North. Essentially all of the photos I've seen were
> taken by Northerners in the South. "Lookit the stoopid rednecks!".
>
> Northerners have never liked to admit that they are just as recist as
> the Southerners, if not more so. At least in the South, the rules are
> clear.
For certain values of "clear," I guess. There were no posted rules, when
my friend lived in Charleston four years ago, that said "only white people
on the beach after sunset." That was, however, the rule she observed
police operating under. I think the issue is considerably more
complicated than you phrase it, frankly, including the fact that there's a
strong human tendency to vociferously condemn the error or weakness one's
just overcome oneself and also to seek self-justification in the face of
condemnation. But this is getting into out of order territory.
I do actually have a possible UL/anecdote, however, that I'm curious if
anyone else has heard. I heard it when I was quite young and won't
necessarily be able to put it to a specific incident now, though Selma is
a possibility. The story is that a black minister in a northern church,
an ordinarily gentle man, is so outraged by the abuse that he determines
to do his bit to even the score; he takes a gun in his car and drives down
to shoot one of "the enemy." Upon entry into Alabama (or whatever state
this was supposed to have taken place in), he stops at a gas station.
It's a little one-man operation, and the one man is, to the eyes of the
visitor, a classic redneck (I remember that this story was the first time
I ever heard that word, in fact). The driver decides that this is the man
for him, and he reaches around stealthily to get his gun ready. When the
station owner comes to the car window for payment, he says to the driver,
"You seen what they're doing to those folks down in Selma [or wherever]?"
And just as the driver starts bringing his gun up to shoot, the station
owner continues, "I think that's just a terrible thing. It makes me
ashamed to live in the same state." Whereupon the shocked minister put
his gun back down, and the station owner never knew how close he came to
losing his life.
If it is a UL, I can see why it didn't get that widely spread--it's hard
to overlook the culpability of the wannabe shooter to get to the moral of
the story, though it may have had details I've forgotten that made it more
workable (and also precluded more cynical interpretations of the station
owner's statements). But it's stayed with me in a way that folklore often
does, and I wondered if anybody else had run into it.
Deborah Stevenson
(stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Colleen M Sullivan
> On Fri, 19 May 2000, Steve Smith wrote:
>> Andrew Reid wrote:
>>
<snip interesting anecdote>
That reminds me very much of an exaple from literature - in the Toni
Morrison novel, _Song of Solomon_, a secret brotherhood calling themselves
the Seven Days vows to revenge each racially motivated killing of a black
man or woman with a parallel killing of a white man or woman. The seven
days moniker refers to the method of short straw selection - there are
seven members, each responsible for a day; one revenges, a week laterm
killig occuring on one's own day, thus sparing the other culpability
should one be caught. the novel goes on to document the detrimental effect
of membership upon the psyche of one of the members.
cms - mississippi goddamn
Becca Ward
> Uh, someone help me out here (I deleted my copy of my post) -- I thought I
> implied or stated that I always considered the rumor about Jews being
> excluded to be in the same category as the rumors about Lincoln being buried
> alive -- just so much Midwestern lore.
>
> <sigh -- things haven't gotten any easier>
>
> In other words, until someone shows me some objective historical
> documentation, I don't believe any of those stories! Isn't that supposed to
> be one of the AFU theme songs?
I trust that in the future, when someone asks you for a cite to support an
assertion you make, that you won't treat it as a personal insult?
In any event, when the U.S. Supreme Court decided the "Restrictive
Covenant cases" of _Shelley v. Kraemer_ and _McGhee v. Sipes,_ it noted in
passing that restrictive covenants had been used historically to exclude
not only "Negroes" or "coloureds," but also Jews. _Shelley v. Kraemer,_
334 U.S. 1, 21 n. 26, 68 S.Ct. 836, 846 n. 26 (1948). The text of the
opinion in the consolidated cases can be found on-line at:
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=334&invol=1
Although most of the cases litigating the enforceability of restrictive
covenants dealt with agreements not to transfer realty to blacks, one of
the more well-known cases from a state jurisdiction involved a covenant
against transfers to anyone who was not a "Gentile." In _Harris v. Sunset
Islands Property Owners, Inc.,_ 116 So.2d 622 (1959), the Florida Supreme
Court refused to enforce a covenant to prevent the sale of property to
Jews.
Restrictive covenants barring transfer to Jews also were known in
Canada. In 1945, the Ontario High Court declined to enforce such a
covenant, in _In re Drummond Wren,_ [1945], 4 D.L.R. 674, 677-79
(Ont. High Ct.), relying in part on the United Nations Charter provisions
relating to human rights, and also determining that such covenants were
against public policy. _See,_ _also,_ _In re Noble & Wolf,_ [1948] 4
D.L.R. 123 (Ont. High Ct.) (regarding a restrictive covenant on real
property located in a Lake Huron resort, barring transfer to anyone who
was "Jewish, Hebrew, Semitic, Negro or [of] coloured race or blood").
When William Rehnquist was undergoing his confirmation hearings for his
appointment as Chief Justice in 1986, the _New York Times_ reported that
a deed for property he owned contained such a restrictive covenant barring
transfer to anyone who was Jewish. News reports also noted that such
covenants were a historical archaism, and became unforceable on 14th
Amendment grounds after the _Shelley_ decision in 1948. _N.Y. Times,_
Aug. 1, 1986, @1, at 1, col. 6.
For further information about the history of restrictive covenants -- and
their applicability to Jews as well as blacks -- please examine the
following law review articles:
William E. Nelson and Norman R. Williams, "Suburbanization & Market
Failure: An Analysis of Government Policies Promoting Suburban Growth and
Ethnic Assimilation," 27 Fordham Urb. L. J. 197 (October 1999); Jack
Greenberg, "A Crusader in the Court: Comments on the Civil Rights
Movement," 63 UMKC L. Rev. 207 (1994) (noting on page 218 that such
covenants were also used to prohibit realty transfers to Jews).
Given that I'm probably in your kill-file, I imagine you won't even see
this message, and will further insist that no one on AFU has provided the
cite that you requested.
Please, enjoy your pink flamingoes.
Drew Lawson
Becca Ward <talo...@maniac.deathstar.org> writes:
>Although most of the cases litigating the enforceability of restrictive
>covenants dealt with agreements not to transfer realty to blacks, one of
>the more well-known cases from a state jurisdiction involved a covenant
>against transfers to anyone who was not a "Gentile." In _Harris v. Sunset
That's an interesting item to me. Interesting because what comes
to mind when I hear "restrictive covenant" is "No Jews." Maybe
I've had atypical exposure (and it's all n-th hand stories), but
I've always had the impression that those were more common.
It's probably just one of those "selective emphasis" things.
Drew "Drewish" Lawson
--
|Drew Lawson | So many newsgroups |
|dr...@furrfu.com | So little time |
|http://www.furrfu.com/ | |
Andrew Reid
> > taken by Northerners in the South. "Lookit the stoopid rednecks!".
> >
> > Northerners have never liked to admit that they are just as recist as
> > the Southerners, if not more so. At least in the South, the rules are
> > clear.
>
> when, during the 1960's, there were anti-desegregation protests in Boston --
> people lieing down in front of the school buses rather than have their white
> children attend school with blacks. History is rife with discriminatory
> laws and practices throughout the north and midwest -- blacks being barred
> from hotels, restaurants, even professional organizations.
It's noteworthy, I think, that a lot of black Americans who
*had* a choice voted with their feet, and moved from the south
to the north in substantial numbers, especially to the cities.
Whether these migrants knew what they were getting into or not,
I can't say. I certainly don't mean to excuse northern racism,
but I think the fact of this migration is possibly relevant as
the basis (or, perhaps, rationalization) for the notion that the
north was "less racist" than the south.
Andrew "Neither a northerner nor a southerner be..." Reid
Lee Rudolph
>That's an interesting item to me. Interesting because what comes
>to mind when I hear "restrictive covenant" is "No Jews."
And "No Armenians", which I am surprised no one seems to have
mentioned.
Lee Rudolph
Carole Duzan
>
> In article <39245F47...@tricity.wsu.edu>,
> Carole Duzan <cdu...@tricity.wsu.edu> wrote:
>
> >Along the same lines, I know several people here in Richland,
> >Washington, who claim to have seen the sign that used to be on the
> >bridge over the Columbia River between Kennewick and Pasco. I
> >don't remember the exact wording, but it was something to the
> >effect that non-white folks should be back in Pasco by sundown.
>
> Surely that means some older bridge than the cable-stayed bridge?
> Was there an older bridge?
>
over the protests of approximately 3 people...
There's a picture of the cable bridge with the green bridge behind it
at:
http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~gm249/PASCO-KENNEWICK_Bridge.jpg
Carole
McGuffin
>If a flaimingo disappears, don't be surprised if you start
getting
>photos of it from all over the world. Flamingos sometimes take
>round the world trips.
Sounds like a reference to the travelling frogs of 1998. Two
concrete lawn frogs were stolen from the front yard of a retired
couple (in Rhode Island?). They started getting letters with
pictures of the frogs from all over the world, usually showing
some of the local scenery. There were notes with the pictures,
saying "Having a great time" or "Home soon". Finally, the frogs
showed up in a limo at the couples house. Two guys finally
fessed up to having carried the frogs around the world on their
vacation and everyone lived happily ever after.
McGuffin
David Hatunen
Joe Boswell <J...@micky.bigbad.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>This lack of enforceability appears quite common.
In the USA racial and ethncially restrictive coventants are,
legally, null and void.
>Restrictive covenants are very common in English law as well. As
>far as I know there is or was not much limit to the restrictions
>that could be written in by the owner when selling a property. The
>last house I bought in England came complete with a very
>impressive set of documents dated 1884, hand written in immaculate
>copperplate on huge pieces of parchment, that forbade me to use
>anything other than stone for the gutters, cast iron for the
>downcomers and slate for the roof. I could not keep more than one
>horse and I was not allowed to make the place a brewery. It went
>on and on, and all for a normal Victorian red brick terrace
>development. However, the right to enforce these things passes on
>with the estate of the person who had the rights originally, and
>after more than 100 years I was quite willing to gamble that
>whoever now had the rights would not know it; if they did, could
>not prove it; and even then, would not care.
There's frequently a spoilsport somewhere, though. In the USA these
restrictive covenants are frequently part of the subdivision
documentation and any other owner of a parcel in the subdivision
has standing to bring suit for enforcement. Except racial and
ethnic covenenants, of coures.
>However, I have never heard of English covenants discriminating
>against groups of people in the way discussed in this thread. The
>English way, until it became illegal, was to put signs saying such
>things in the windows of boarding houses.
The subject covenants apply to real property ownership.
Joe Boswell
writes
>in a NYC neighborhood the covenant had restrictions about not selling to
>(groups such as) Irish or Italians.
>
>While I can't easily come up with a copy, this is well remembered by us
>and it was a humerous point of discussion at the closing.. we did _NOT_ do
>anything about it because we all knew that it was completly unenforcable.
This lack of enforceability appears quite common. Restrictive covenants
are very common in English law as well. As far as I know there is or was
not much limit to the restrictions that could be written in by the owner
when selling a property. The last house I bought in England came
complete with a very impressive set of documents dated 1884, hand
written in immaculate copperplate on huge pieces of parchment, that
forbade me to use anything other than stone for the gutters, cast iron
for the downcomers and slate for the roof. I could not keep more than
one horse and I was not allowed to make the place a brewery. It went on
and on, and all for a normal Victorian red brick terrace development.
However, the right to enforce these things passes on with the estate of
the person who had the rights originally, and after more than 100 years
I was quite willing to gamble that whoever now had the rights would not
know it; if they did, could not prove it; and even then, would not care.
However, I have never heard of English covenants discriminating against
groups of people in the way discussed in this thread. The English way,
until it became illegal, was to put signs saying such things in the
windows of boarding houses.
--
Joe Boswell * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap
[spam block - take the micky from the address or it won't work]
Dr H
On Wed, 17 May 2000, Scratchie wrote:
}David Hatunen <hat...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
}: In the days of Jim Crow, even in the North, there were a lot of
} ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
}
}You misspelled "Throughout USA history, and continuing to the present,"
}
}: lily-white towns, and the smaller they were the easier they were to
}: keep that way.
}
}There are still plenty of towns in Massachusetts where a black man driving
}a nice car (especially after dark) will attract the attention of the local
}constabulary.
Happens in Oregon to this day. Happened to a roomate, less than 10
years ago.
Dr H
Karen J. Cravens
KD>I heard the same story, but that the concrete statue in question was a
KD>little pig, and one of the locations was the Great Wall of China. Is this a
KD>UL or what?
No, it's a frequently-performed stunt. Stuffed animals (usually large,
but sometimes of the hairless-dog autograph variety) are another popular
subject. Sometimes the subject is kidnapped, other times it's a class
project or similar.
Contact your friendly neighborhood passenger airline's hub and ask 'em if
the pilot's lounge has any pictures of any of their pilots with such a
world traveller. If it's an airline with a friendly reputation (I'll bet
Southwest gets a *lot*), or one that does a lot of international travel,
they get requests for this sort of thing.
KD> Are we spreading them or debunking them?
The only real candidate for debunkage is "This is the first time this
happened." I mean, I suppose you could do a confirmation on an individual
event, because I'm sure various ones get conflated ("No, it wasn't a
concrete pig, it was a stuffed one"), but there are more rewarding
candidates for debunkage, I'd think.
--
Karen J. Cravens sil...@phoenyx.net
Drew Lawson
"K. D." <kaye...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>
>"McGuffin" <mrbulger...@worldnet.att.net.invalid>
>
>> Sounds like a reference to the travelling frogs of 1998. Two
>> concrete lawn frogs were stolen from the front yard of a retired
>> couple (in Rhode Island?). They started getting letters with
>> pictures of the frogs from all over the world, usually showing
>I heard the same story, but that the concrete statue in question was a
>little pig, and one of the locations was the Great Wall of China. Is this a
>UL or what? Are we spreading them or debunking them?
There are many instances of it circulating. Some of the "traveling
statuary" have web pages.
It might be interesting to track down when this *first* happened,
but it isn't an uncommon story.
Drew "abducted by strangers and taken to alien places" Lawson
Phil Edwards
>>Lawn Globes AKA Lawn Balls AKA Gazing Balls(?) apparently lack the proper
>
>For anyone included to seek them out, I've also seen them marketed
>as "Victorian gazing balls."
Ah, heritage. Must be nice to have all that stuff to look back on.
Phil "gazon balls?" Edwards
--
Phil Edwards http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/amroth/
"as long as there are barbarians huddled outside the gate,
there will be a gate" - Don Middendorf
Olivers
not move North (a substantial majority)? Did they perceive the South to
be less racist. After all, Liberia was a Yankee idea..
And as an aside, a number of Southern cities have minority majorities.
Atlanta and Dallas come to mind, both larger than Detroit.
--
TMOliver - el pelon sinverguenza
"Alle kunst ist unsonst,
wenn ein Engel in das Kundloch prunst."
Trystero4
courses than did I. If your high-school experiences post date mine, I
take this as a good sign.
Dr H<<
I'd just chalk it up to a more "open minded" approach to academic history.
I teach 7th grade World History and I try to do a pretty good job of telling
both sides to every story. Unfortuately there are many people out there who
don't want their children to hear anything remotely fresh. I had a parent
complain to me that I was "too revisionist" in my approach to the Age of
Exploration mainly because I didn't teach Columbus as a demigod. I've had
other parents complain that I was "bad mouthing" the Catholic Church during our
units on The Crusades and The Reformation.
Trystero4
hometown (the thriving metropolis of Bakersfield CA.) refused to sell a house
to a local man based up said man's occupation.....he is a lawyer. The
developer(s) claimed that they had had problems in the past with selling
property to lawyers since they are more apt to file suit over any
disagreements. Damned if I can't find the articles from my local rag. Trust
me on this one, it ain't no UL.