Ring around the Rosie: Museum of London vector?
Huck Itume
lunch the other day, so I asked him where he heard it. He said that he
read it at the Museum of London, on their display regarding the
plague. He was quite certain that he learned it there, and since it is
a reputable source he believed it, and related it as true. I sent him
the snopes' page regarding the legend, but I'm not sure he'll be
convinced.
Any London-based afusti want to check it out? By his account the
Museum of London is worth visiting.
(1) MFV is a jokester, and will often pull legs. He seemed to believe
the explanation he was giving. He related 'Scuba diver in the fire' as
true also, but he knew it wasn't true.
Huck Itume
Keith Willis
>My Favorite Vector(1) relayed the Ring around the Rosie/plague tale at
>lunch the other day, so I asked him where he heard it. He said that he
>read it at the Museum of London, on their display regarding the
>plague.
I was about to talk nonsense about which museum in London was being
referred to[1] until I read it again and realised it was the Museum
_of_ London... A search of their web site[2] using "plague" just comes
up with what looks like a six-monthly event about Sam Pepys. Next
time I'm up in the Smoke I'll try and check out the display in
question.
k "as opposed to up _in_ smoke - that came after the plague" willis
1. Science, Natural History, Geological, British, V&A, etc, etc..
2. http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/
--
http://www.bytebrothers.co.uk
PGP key ID 0xEB7180EC
Brett Weiss
studies book. I'll ask her to bring the book home tomorrow to see
if I can get a cite.
--
Brett
"Huck Itume" <sta1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9c1e8630.03110...@posting.google.com...
Andrew McMichael
> My daughter mentioned that it was in her Middle School social
> studies book. I'll ask her to bring the book home tomorrow to see
> if I can get a cite.
>
It is in the most recent book by Norman Cantor _In the Wake of the
Plague_. Uncited. He is a professional historian of the Plague, and
quite famous for his work. I e-mailed him the snopes page and a few
other references I've seen, some links to TAFKAC, etc. Haven't heard
back from him. If I see him at the convention in DC in January, I'll
accost him for a source.
Andrew "Its not just the web, Mitch" McMichael
Lizz Holmans
<andrew.m...@wku.edu> wrote:
>
>It is in the most recent book by Norman Cantor _In the Wake of the
>Plague_. Uncited. He is a professional historian of the Plague, and
>quite famous for his work. I e-mailed him the snopes page and a few
>other references I've seen, some links to TAFKAC, etc. Haven't heard
>back from him. If I see him at the convention in DC in January, I'll
>accost him for a source.
Simon Schama, our Historian of the Month at the BBC, vectored it in
last night's episode; I believe it was on the UK History Channel, but
I could be wrong.
Lizz 'me? wrong? inconceivable! (slumps over dead)' Holmans
--
i feel as visible as a hyphen but not half as self assured--archy
Ben Zimmer
>
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:11:29 -0600, Andrew McMichael
> <andrew.m...@wku.edu> wrote:
>
> >It is in the most recent book by Norman Cantor _In the Wake of the
> >Plague_. Uncited. He is a professional historian of the Plague, and
> >quite famous for his work. I e-mailed him the snopes page and a few
> >other references I've seen, some links to TAFKAC, etc. Haven't heard
> >back from him. If I see him at the convention in DC in January, I'll
> >accost him for a source.
>
> Simon Schama, our Historian of the Month at the BBC, vectored it in
> last night's episode; I believe it was on the UK History Channel, but
> I could be wrong.
A full-text search on Amazon for "ring around the rosie" and "plague"
finds at least a dozen vectors:
1. Viruses, Plagues, and History
by Michael B. A. Oldstone
2. Too Scared to Cry: Psychic Trauma in Childhood
by Lenore Terr
3. Young at Art: Teaching Toddlers Self-Expression, Problem-Solving
Skills, and an Appreciation of Art
by Susan Striker
4. Uncle John's All-Purpose Extra-Strength Bathroom Reader
(Uncle John's Bathroom Reader #13)
5. Uncle John's Bathroom Reader Plunges into History
by Bathroom Reader's Hysterical Society
6. What Did I Just Say!?!: How New Insights into Childhood Thinking
Can Help You Communicate More Effectively With Your Child
by Deborah McIntyre, Denis Donovan
7. In Other Los Angeleses: Multicentric Performance Art
by Meiling Cheng
8. World History For Dummies®
by Peter Haugen
9. Myth Information
by J. Allen Varasdi
10. Nonlinear Pricing: Theory & Applications
by Christopher T. May
11. AIDS, Fear And Society: Challenging The Dreaded Disease
by Kenneth J. Doka
12. A Journal of the Plague Year (Modern Library Classics)
by Daniel Defoe, Jason Goodwin (Introduction)
No cites given in any of these texts, of course, even #1 (by a noted
virologist at the Scripps Research Institute) and #12 (given in notes to
Defoe's text by Ernelle Fife, professor of English at SUNY New Paltz).
Ben "plagued by inaccuracies" Zimmer
Lizz Holmans
<bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>A full-text search on Amazon for "ring around the rosie" and "plague"
>finds at least a dozen vectors:
Make it thirteen: Peter Ackroyd's 'London', an alleged 'biography' of
the Great Wen. As it was a best-seller Over Here, that's a lot of
folks believing the wrong stuff.
Lizz 'So what else is new?' Holmans
Brett Weiss
> studies book. I'll ask her to bring the book home tomorrow to
see
> if I can get a cite.
As promised...
Across the Centuries, Armento, Beverly, et al.
First Edition, 2003
Houghton Mifflin
Page 310:
Europe at the End of the Middle Ages.
"Ring-a-ring o' roses,
A pocket full of posies
A-tishoo! A-tishoo!
We All Fall Down"
The words may be a little different, but you probably still
recognize this children's rhyme: Ring-Around-the-Rosie."
As common as this verse is, few people know that it describes one
of the most destructive events of the Middle Ages--the Great
Plague. The plague was a disease that swept like wildfire through
Europe beginning in 1347. It was first seen in China in 1331 and
in 15 years had spread across Asia to the Black Sea. People later
called it the Black Death, because black spots formed under the
skin from internal bleeding.
A rosy rash and sneezing were also symptoms of the disease.
People carried bunches of herbs called "posies" in their pockets
to try to ward off the illness. Millions of people "fell down"
and died as wave after wave of the Black Death struck.
This book is used in my 7th grader's social studies class.
Take care.
--
Brett
Hatunen
<bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>A full-text search on Amazon for "ring around the rosie" and "plague"
>finds at least a dozen vectors:
[...]
>12. A Journal of the Plague Year (Modern Library Classics)
> by Daniel Defoe, Jason Goodwin (Introduction)
>
>No cites given in any of these texts, of course, even #1 (by a noted
>virologist at the Scripps Research Institute) and #12 (given in notes to
>Defoe's text by Ernelle Fife, professor of English at SUNY New Paltz).
Wrong plague year for the legend, anyway, I should think. DaFoe's
plague year was in, I believe, the 17th century while the legend
claims descent from the Really Big Plague of the 14th century.
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Hatunen
Expecting good info and facts from a school text is foolish,
anyway. I'll bet it was written by a commmitee.
Ben Zimmer
>
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:45:32 -0500, Ben Zimmer
> <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> >A full-text search on Amazon for "ring around the rosie" and "plague"
> >finds at least a dozen vectors:
>
> [...]
>
> >12. A Journal of the Plague Year (Modern Library Classics)
> > by Daniel Defoe, Jason Goodwin (Introduction)
> >
> >#12 (given in notes to Defoe's text by Ernelle Fife, professor of
> >English at SUNY New Paltz).
>
> Wrong plague year for the legend, anyway, I should think. DaFoe's
> plague year was in, I believe, the 17th century while the legend
> claims descent from the Really Big Plague of the 14th century.
Depends on which version of the legend you believe. Take for instance
yet another vector found on Amazon, _Chaucer: The Life and Times of the
First English Poet_ by Richard West (2000):
One of the strangest features of the English as opposed to
the continental response to the Black Death was the
scarcity of references to it in literature or even in
folklore. [...] Even the little girls' skipping song,
which was once said to date to the time of the Black Death,
is now more often attributed to the plague of 1665:
Ring a ring of roses [etc.]
In fact, the very first known vectoring of the Rosie legend is from a
book about the 1664-65 plague: _The Plague and the Fire_ by James Leasor
(1961).
http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1et1g7a.awqmmxng2erkN%tr...@euronet.nl
Donna Richoux
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:45:32 -0500, Ben Zimmer
> <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> >A full-text search on Amazon for "ring around the rosie" and "plague"
> >finds at least a dozen vectors:
>
> >12. A Journal of the Plague Year (Modern Library Classics)
> > by Daniel Defoe, Jason Goodwin (Introduction)
To make it very very clear: Ben is saying that Ring-rosie shows up in
Goodwin's "Introduction," not in Defoe's work. If it had been in Defoe's
1720 book (which was fictional, by the way), there would never have been
any question to discuss. But at a casual glance, the above reference
looks like, "Hey, it was in Defoe!"
> >No cites given in any of these texts, of course, even #1 (by a noted
> >virologist at the Scripps Research Institute) and #12 (given in notes to
> >Defoe's text by Ernelle Fife, professor of English at SUNY New Paltz).
>
> Wrong plague year for the legend, anyway, I should think. DaFoe's
> plague year was in, I believe, the 17th century while the legend
> claims descent from the Really Big Plague of the 14th century.
Hey, yeah, right, since it can't be traced back to 1665, why don't we
all not trace it back to 1350? I know, let's not trace it back to first
century Rome. "Ringulus, ringulus, rosa..."
Dave, if you can happen to identify anyone halfway-authoritative who
publishes such a claim, please add it to the mix.
--
Donna "a tissue, a tissue" Richoux
Andrew McMichael
>
> As promised...
>
> Across the Centuries, Armento, Beverly, et al.
> First Edition, 2003
> Houghton Mifflin
I review college texts for HMCO, and my editor/contact had just e-mailed
me about a different book. I've just e-mailed her back pointing this one
out, and will report what she says.
Andrew
Ben Zimmer
>
> Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:45:32 -0500, Ben Zimmer
> > <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >A full-text search on Amazon for "ring around the rosie" and "plague"
> > >finds at least a dozen vectors:
> >
> > >12. A Journal of the Plague Year (Modern Library Classics)
> > > by Daniel Defoe, Jason Goodwin (Introduction)
>
> To make it very very clear: Ben is saying that Ring-rosie shows up in
> Goodwin's "Introduction," not in Defoe's work. If it had been in Defoe's
> 1720 book (which was fictional, by the way), there would never have been
> any question to discuss. But at a casual glance, the above reference
> looks like, "Hey, it was in Defoe!"
Right, it wasn't vectored in Defoe's text, but it's not in Goodwin's
introduction either. It was in the notes to the text, which as I said
were written by Ernelle Fife...
> > >No cites given in any of these texts, of course, even [...] #12
> > >(given in notes to Defoe's text by Ernelle Fife, professor of
> > >English at SUNY New Paltz).
> >
> > Wrong plague year for the legend, anyway, I should think. DaFoe's
> > plague year was in, I believe, the 17th century while the legend
> > claims descent from the Really Big Plague of the 14th century.
>
> Hey, yeah, right, since it can't be traced back to 1665, why don't we
> all not trace it back to 1350? I know, let's not trace it back to first
> century Rome. "Ringulus, ringulus, rosa..."
>
> Dave, if you can happen to identify anyone halfway-authoritative who
> publishes such a claim, please add it to the mix.
Well, as Lizz pointed out upthread, Norman Cantor's _In the Wake of the
Plague_ claims that "Rosie" is at least an after-effect of the earlier
plague. As you can see on Amazon, he writes: "In the England of 1500
children were singing a rhyme and playing a game called 'Ring Around the
Rosies'... The children were reflecting society's efforts to repress
memory of the Black Death of 1348-49 and its lesser aftershocks."
Norman Cantor does seem to be "halfway-authoritative" (emeritus
professor of medieval history at New York University -- "the premier
historian of the Middle Ages", according to the publisher).
Ben "also wrote _Inventing the Middle Ages_ <cough cough>" Zimmer
Deborah Stevenson
>Well, as Lizz pointed out upthread, Norman Cantor's _In the Wake of the
>Plague_ claims that "Rosie" is at least an after-effect of the earlier
>plague. As you can see on Amazon, he writes: "In the England of 1500
>children were singing a rhyme and playing a game called 'Ring Around the
>Rosies'...
Interesting. I don't recall seeing this date being provided for
ostensible witnessing of the rhyme before.
Anybody got enough clout to ask him where he got this?
--
Deborah Stevenson
dste...@OBSTACLESuiuc.edu
[eliminate OBSTACLES to email me]
Andrew McMichael
> In <3FB271AD...@midway.uchicago.edu> Ben Zimmer <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> writes:
>
>
>>Well, as Lizz pointed out upthread, Norman Cantor's _In the Wake of the
>>Plague_ claims that "Rosie" is at least an after-effect of the earlier
>>plague. As you can see on Amazon, he writes: "In the England of 1500
>>children were singing a rhyme and playing a game called 'Ring Around the
>>Rosies'...
>
>
> Interesting. I don't recall seeing this date being provided for
> ostensible witnessing of the rhyme before.
>
> Anybody got enough clout to ask him where he got this?
I do, and I've asked him, via e-mail several times. He hasn't responded.
I'll give him a call today or tomorrow.
Andrew
Ben Zimmer
I'd be interested in his response. By the way, here's part of a
transcript of an interview with Cantor by Ben Wattenberg:
http://www.pbs.org/thinktank/transcript968.html
Ben: The whole thing is...is uh, quite astonishing. This
event occurred six hundred and fifty years ago and you're
still writing books about it, people are still talking
about it, we still have nursery rhymes, this 'ring around
the rosy, pocketful of posy,' that...that is straight from,
'all fall down,' that is straight from the Bubonic Plague.
Cantor: We have records of it going back to 1500 and it
describes the symptoms of Bubonic Plague. Psychiatrists and
folklorists tell us that children often develop defensive
games when they face some horrible disaster, they turn it
into a nursery rhyme and a game where people went around in
the circle and then they all fell down.
"We have records," hmmm? Wonder why these "records" didn't merit a
footnote in his book...
Ben "uncitely scholarship" Zimmer
Lizz Holmans
I pointed out *what*?
Lizz 'I've never even heard of that book' Holmans
Ben Zimmer
My apologies-- that was Andrew McMichael who first mentioned Cantor's
book. Got it confused with your mention of the Peter Ackroyd vector.
Ben "Vector? I nearly killed 'er!" Zimmer
sclark55
> Cantor: We have records of it going back to 1500 and it
> describes the symptoms of Bubonic Plague. Psychiatrists and
> folklorists tell us that children often develop defensive
> games when they face some horrible disaster, they turn it
> into a nursery rhyme and a game where people went around in
> the circle and then they all fell down.
Well, gee, too bad Cantor didn't bother to compare the symptoms of the
plague with what's actually described in the rhyme...or bother do do any
other research besides asking psychaistrists whether it was possible for
kids to develop this type of game after a disaster. (And I somehow suspect
this was an afterthought, after people started asking questions....)
> "We have records," hmmm? Wonder why these "records" didn't merit a
> footnote in his book...
Because he's a sloppy scholar. Period. But I'm a medievalist, and
medievalists already knew that. Unfortunately, he's a well-known popular
historian who studies a period that is often misunderstood.
Susan "inventing more than the Middle Ages" Carroll-Clark
(PhD, medieval history)
Hatunen
<bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> Cantor: We have records of it going back to 1500 and it
> describes the symptoms of Bubonic Plague.
The problem is, of course, that it doesn't describe the symptons
of bubonic plague very well at all.
Andrew McMichael
> Andrew McMichael wrote:
>>I do, and I've asked him, via e-mail several times. He hasn't responded.
>>I'll give him a call today or tomorrow.
>
> I'd be interested in his response. By the way, here's part of a
> transcript of an interview with Cantor by Ben Wattenberg:
NYU's department won't forward e-mail to him, and they won't leave
messages for him in his mailbox. Strange. Anyway, I've sent the
following via snail-mail.
--------
Professor Cantor,
My name is Andrew McMichael, and I am a professor of history at Western
Kentucky University. I am writing to ask you about something from your
book, In The Wake of the Plague. Aside from my interests as a
professional historian, I also have an interest in folklore, and noticed
that on page five you state that children in England in the 1500s were
singing the song “Ring Around the Rosie” as a reference to the plague.
However, you don’t footnote this item.
One of the interests among folklorists is that children’s song and its
origins. Despite a great deal of research, there does not seem to be any
trace of this rhyme in popular American or European—including
British—writings prior to Kate Greenaway's Mother Goose or The Old
Nursery Rhymes in 1881. Additionally, the rhyme apparently wasn’t
ascribed medieval origins until James Leasor published The Plague and
the Fire in 1961. That is also odd, because if the rhyme really does
date to the plague years, there should be references to its having been
recited in that context going back further than forty-two years.
All that having been said, if you know of some primary source from the
Middle Ages showing that “Ring Around the Rosie” was contemporary to the
plague, it would be a real discovery for the field. I would love to see
it, and I think that many folklorists would be appreciative as well. If
there is no primary source for it, I wonder if you might forward to me
the secondary source[s] from which you got your information, especially
if that secondary source predates the 1960s, or—-even better-—the 1880s.
Thanks for your time in this matter.
Andrew McMichael
Asst. Professor of History
Western Kentucky University
---------
We'll see what he says. This is one of those times when I wish I still
had my Princeton address and letterhead. It would probably assure a
serious response.
Andrew
Aaron Davies
> No cites given in any of these texts, of course, even #1 (by a noted
> virologist at the Scripps Research Institute) and #12 (given in notes to
> Defoe's text by Ernelle Fife, professor of English at SUNY New Paltz).
I think I first saw it vectored in _Panniti's Extraordinary Origin of
Everyday Things_, but as I don't have my copy with me right now, I can't
give you a page number (or guarantee the spleling of the name). Come to
think of it, that book probably vectors several dozen UL's, if not
several hundred.
--
Aaron Davies
Opinions expressed are solely those of a random number generator.
"I don't know if it's real or not but it is a myth."
-Jami JoAnne of alt.folklore.urban, showing her grasp on reality.
Hatunen
aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com.invalid (Aaron Davies) wrote:
>Ben Zimmer <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>> No cites given in any of these texts, of course, even #1 (by a noted
>> virologist at the Scripps Research Institute) and #12 (given in notes to
>> Defoe's text by Ernelle Fife, professor of English at SUNY New Paltz).
>
>I think I first saw it vectored in _Panniti's Extraordinary Origin of
>Everyday Things_, but as I don't have my copy with me right now, I can't
>give you a page number (or guarantee the spleling of the name). Come to
>think of it, that book probably vectors several dozen UL's, if not
>several hundred.
Panati. And it does do a lot of vectoring. It's one of the books
sitting next to the toilet in our guest bathroom.
TeaLady (Mari C.)
news:hmpgrvodfrbne8od7...@4ax.com:
> On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 06:09:06 GMT,
> aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com.invalid (Aaron Davies) wrote:
>
>>Ben Zimmer <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> No cites given in any of these texts, of course, even #1 (by
>>> a noted virologist at the Scripps Research Institute) and #12
>>> (given in notes to Defoe's text by Ernelle Fife, professor of
>>> English at SUNY New Paltz).
>>
>>I think I first saw it vectored in _Panniti's Extraordinary
>>Origin of Everyday Things_, but as I don't have my copy with me
>>right now, I can't give you a page number (or guarantee the
>>spleling of the name). Come to think of it, that book probably
>>vectors several dozen UL's, if not several hundred.
>
> Panati. And it does do a lot of vectoring. It's one of the
> books sitting next to the toilet in our guest bathroom.
>
Sitting next to a commode, I am guessing it would vector quite a
few things.
Or does that only apply to toothbrushes ?
--
TeaLady
"Stated to me for a fact. I only tell it as I got it. I am
willing to believe it. I can believe anything." Sam Clemens
Spressobean has recovered from her viral attack and is once again
accepting mail.
Mari Conroy
Dr H
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Hatunen wrote:
}On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 06:09:06 GMT,
}aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com.invalid (Aaron Davies) wrote:
}
}>Ben Zimmer <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
}>
}>> No cites given in any of these texts, of course, even #1 (by a noted
}>> virologist at the Scripps Research Institute) and #12 (given in notes to
}>> Defoe's text by Ernelle Fife, professor of English at SUNY New Paltz).
}>
}>I think I first saw it vectored in _Panniti's Extraordinary Origin of
}>Everyday Things_, but as I don't have my copy with me right now, I can't
}>give you a page number (or guarantee the spleling of the name). Come to
}>think of it, that book probably vectors several dozen UL's, if not
}>several hundred.
}
}Panati. And it does do a lot of vectoring. It's one of the books
}sitting next to the toilet in our guest bathroom.
Used up the Sears catalog, did you?
Dr H
Phil Edwards
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:53:12 +0100, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:
>> Wrong plague year for the legend, anyway, I should think. DaFoe's
>> plague year was in, I believe, the 17th century while the legend
>> claims descent from the Really Big Plague of the 14th century.
>
>Hey, yeah, right, since it can't be traced back to 1665, why don't we
>all not trace it back to 1350?
For what it's worth, the Black Death origin-story was one of the many
things I'd never heard of before I started reading Usenet, along with
'the whole nine yards' and the Second Amendment. The Great Plague
story, on the other hand, was one of those things Everyone Knew. This
may just be a local variation - I seem to remember Mike Holmans, also
British and pretty much my contemporary, saying that Everyone Knew it
was the Black Death in his day - or it may be because most people put
the Black Death ahead of the Great Plague in the Worst Plague Ever
stakes, particularly outside Britain.
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:45:17 -0500, Ben Zimmer
<bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:32:02 -0500, Ben Zimmer
<bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> Ben: The whole thing is...is uh, quite astonishing. This
> event occurred six hundred and fifty years ago and you're
> still writing books about it, people are still talking
> about it, we still have nursery rhymes, this 'ring around
> the rosy, pocketful of posy,' that...that is straight from,
> 'all fall down,' that is straight from the Bubonic Plague.
>
> Cantor: We have records of it going back to 1500 and it
> describes the symptoms of Bubonic Plague. Psychiatrists and
> folklorists tell us that children often develop defensive
> games when they face some horrible disaster, they turn it
> into a nursery rhyme and a game where people went around in
> the circle and then they all fell down.
This is just extraordinary. I'd write to him on University of Salford
letterhead if I was a medievalist, or even an early-modern-ist. (And
if I had any University of Salford letterhead, obviously.)
P "very late modernist" E
--
Phil Edwards http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/amroth/
"The question is only whether the universe beyond the visible fringe
is infinite in number of monkeys." - Hugh Gibbons, cosmologist
Burroughs Guy
> For what it's worth, the Black Death origin-story was one of the many
> things I'd never heard of before I started reading Usenet, along with
> 'the whole nine yards' and the Second Amendment.
I hadn't heard this one before. I Googled and found bupkas. Will
someone please relate the story of how "the whole nine yards" is
related to the Second Amendment?
--
Burroughs "keep and bear nine yeards of what?" Guy
I knew the MCP when it was just a chess program.
Dan Fingerman
<news:YmFydGljdXM=.c81564c78fea4da77874fc28d85392e6@1069877755.cotse.
net>:
> Phil Edwards wrote:
>
>> For what it's worth, the Black Death origin-story was one of the
>> many things I'd never heard of before I started reading Usenet,
>> along with 'the whole nine yards' and the S*cond Am*ndm*nt.
>
> I hadn't heard this one before. I Googled and found bupkas. Will
> someone please relate the story of how "the whole nine yards" is
> related to the S*cond Am*ndm*nt?
No keywords, so I'll just add a few drops of Grep-Gard(tm) to your
post and answer it.
See, e.g.,
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=O1ZO6.8155$Up.231496@sea-
read.news.verio.net
(or <http://tinyurl.com/wp8w>)
...which says, "The phrase is American. Machine-gun belts on aircraft
used to be 27 feet long. If you expend all your ammunition on a
target, you 'gave 'em the whole nine yards.'"
--
DTM :<|
http://dan.fingerman.name/
Phil Edwards
<BurroughsG...@aol.com> wrote:
>Phil Edwards wrote:
>
>> For what it's worth, the Black Death origin-story was one of the many
>> things I'd never heard of before I started reading Usenet, along with
>> 'the whole nine yards' and the Second Amendment.
>
>I hadn't heard this one before. I Googled and found bupkas. Will
>someone please relate the story of how "the whole nine yards" is
>related to the Second Amendment?
They're related inasmuch as they're things I (Phil Edwards, born 1960)
had never heard of before I started reading Usenet (in May 1996). (I
could also have mentioned the Banned Acronyms and Objectivism.) I
didn't intend - and didn't suggest, actually - any other connection.
P "HTH" E
David
news:e4fasvgvll7um9v0s...@4ax.com...
I just happened to come across the following while doing something
completely different:
Fun Facts: Ring-a-ring o´roses A pocket full of posies Atishoo, atishoo, we
all fall down.
This popular children's nursery rhyme dates back to 1664 - the year of the
Great Plague of London. The posies were the "magic" herbs which were carried
in the pocket and were thought to ward off the virus. The herbs included
hyssop, rosemary, thyme and southern wood. They were also used to disguise
the unpleasant smells of the plague.
Found at
http://www.info-galaxy.com/Herbs/General_Index/Filter/Hyssop/hyssop.html
or
http://qurl.us/8
David "Hyssopus officinalis" Springs
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 12/7/2003
William David Thweatt
: "Phil Edwards" <amr...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
: news:e4fasvgvll7um9v0s...@4ax.com...
: > On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:15:55 -0500 (EST), "Burroughs Guy"
: > <BurroughsG...@aol.com> wrote:
: >
: > >Phil Edwards wrote:
: > >
: > >> For what it's worth, the Black Death origin-story was one of the many
: > >> things I'd never heard of before I started reading Usenet, along with
: > >> 'the whole nine yards' and the Second Amendment.
: > >
: > >I hadn't heard this one before. I Googled and found bupkas. Will
: > >someone please relate the story of how "the whole nine yards" is
: > >related to the Second Amendment?
: >
: > They're related inasmuch as they're things I (Phil Edwards, born 1960)
: > had never heard of before I started reading Usenet (in May 1996). (I
: > could also have mentioned the Banned Acronyms and Objectivism.) I
: > didn't intend - and didn't suggest, actually - any other connection.
You never heard of the Second Amendment?
--
--
William "Dave" Thweatt
Robert E. Welch Postdoctoral Fellow
Chemistry Department
Rice University
Houston, TX
thw...@ruf.rice.edu
dave.t...@us.army.mil
Lon Stowell
> David (m...@davidsprings.com) wrote:
> : "Phil Edwards" <amr...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> : news:e4fasvgvll7um9v0s...@4ax.com...
> : > On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:15:55 -0500 (EST), "Burroughs Guy"
> : > <BurroughsG...@aol.com> wrote:
> : >
> : > >Phil Edwards wrote:
> : > >
> : > >> For what it's worth, the Black Death origin-story was one of the many
> : > >> things I'd never heard of before I started reading Usenet, along with
> : > >> 'the whole nine yards' and the Second Amendment.
> : > >
> : > >I hadn't heard this one before. I Googled and found bupkas. Will
> : > >someone please relate the story of how "the whole nine yards" is
> : > >related to the Second Amendment?
> : >
> : > They're related inasmuch as they're things I (Phil Edwards, born 1960)
> : > had never heard of before I started reading Usenet (in May 1996). (I
> : > could also have mentioned the Banned Acronyms and Objectivism.) I
> : > didn't intend - and didn't suggest, actually - any other connection.
> : >
>
> You never heard of the Second Amendment?
Naw, we got it right with the First one.
--
Fan of the dumbest team in America.
Brian Yeoh
> : "Phil Edwards" <amr...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> : > They're related inasmuch as they're things I (Phil Edwards, born 1960)
> : > had never heard of before I started reading Usenet (in May 1996). (I
> : > could also have mentioned the Banned Acronyms and Objectivism.) I
> : > didn't intend - and didn't suggest, actually - any other connection.
> You never heard of the Second Amendment?
Note his email address.
Brian "I'd never heard of blue laws" Yeoh
--
Perhaps that was what New York existed for, to celebrate those who _had
it_, whatever it was, and there was nothing like the right stuff, for all
responded to it and all wanted to be near it and to feel the sizzle and to
blink in the light
-- Tom Wolfe, _The Right Stuff_
sclark55
> Fun Facts: Ring-a-ring o´roses A pocket full of posies Atishoo, atishoo,
we
> all fall down.
> This popular children's nursery rhyme dates back to 1664 - the year of the
> Great Plague of London.
1665-66. Sheesh.
Or maybe the rhyme was devised by psychics.
Susan Carroll-Clark
Chris Clarke
<thw...@rice.edu> wrote:
> David (m...@davidsprings.com) wrote:
> : "Phil Edwards" <amr...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> : news:e4fasvgvll7um9v0s...@4ax.com...
> : > On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:15:55 -0500 (EST), "Burroughs Guy"
> : > <BurroughsG...@aol.com> wrote:
> : >
> : > >Phil Edwards wrote:
> : > >
> : > >> For what it's worth, the Black Death origin-story was one of the many
> : > >> things I'd never heard of before I started reading Usenet, along with
> : > >> 'the whole nine yards' and the Second Amendment.
> : > >
> : > >I hadn't heard this one before. I Googled and found bupkas. Will
> : > >someone please relate the story of how "the whole nine yards" is
> : > >related to the Second Amendment?
> : >
> : > They're related inasmuch as they're things I (Phil Edwards, born 1960)
> : > had never heard of before I started reading Usenet (in May 1996). (I
> : > could also have mentioned the Banned Acronyms and Objectivism.) I
> : > didn't intend - and didn't suggest, actually - any other connection.
> : >
>
> You never heard of the Second Amendment?
Dear William;
You know that word that Texans sometimes use to describe that small,
unimportant part of the universe that lies outside Texas? You know the
word I'm thinking of - "America?"
Well, imagine that America itself only stretches just a bit further
than Port Arthur or El Paso, and that there are a whole lot of places
OUTSIDE America, VERY far away from Texas, in which people watch
Jeopardy at different times than we do and they drive on different
sides of the road than we do and they sometimes even don't speak Texan!
So OK. Now you know the US Constitution, that set of laws that Texans
are now trying to aboli^W^W^W^W^W^W contains the Second Amendment? Hold
on to your big ol' hat: it doesn't apply to the people that live
outside America.
Yet.
Chris "HTH" Clarke
P.S. For purposes of this post, Mexico and Oklahoma are assumed to be
wholly-owned subsidiaries of Texas.
Olivers
>
> P.S. For purposes of this post, Mexico and Oklahoma are assumed to be
> wholly-owned subsidiaries of Texas.
>
No, unlike California, essentially a Protectorate of Mexico in all senses
other than the issuance of Driving Licenses, Texas is a colonial appendage
of the land of the Eagle and Serpent.
The secret plans of the Viennese coffee houses and sausage cans seem to
have come to fruition with the ascension of the Australian to the Curile
Chair in Sacramento. Why, it's only been less than 150 years since another
Australian came to power in Mexico.
Do you reckon that Arnie faces the same fate as Max'l?
TM "Schwarzenegger translates as Wombat-Breeder in Tasmanian"Oliver
Latest news: The Attorney General of Texas, wheelchair bound due to a tree
falling upon him some years ago, has filed suit in federal court
maintaining that the "access to state and local government buildings"
portion of the Americans with Disabilities Act is unconstitutional on the
grounds that the Commerce Clause does not cover states and local
governments. The prospect of the case ascending all the way to the
Supremes to be argued by a guy in a wheelchair presents one of those
moments when furriners become amazed and or amused at the dynmaics of the
US justice system.
BBol924849
>From: Olivers ol...@LOSETHIScalpha.com
>Date: 12/13/03 7:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
>No, unlike California, essentially a
>have come to fruition with the ascension of the Australian to the Curile
>Chair in Sacramento. Why, it's only been less than 150 years since another
>Australian came to power in Mexico.
>
>Do you reckon that Arnie faces the same fate as Max'l?
Hatunen
Bud Burner
> P.S. For purposes of this post, Mexico and Oklahoma are assumed to be
> wholly-owned subsidiaries of Texas.
The only thing I have to say about that remark is:
Oklahoma - 66
Texas - 13
Chris Clarke
Burner <Budi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
The Average Statewide IQ thread is down the hall.
Chris "OK was at 105, but then Lizz left" Clarke
Lizz Holmans
I never claimed to be *that* hot.
Lizz 'just your ordinary voluptuous sex weasel, measured in
Fahrenheit' Holmans
--
Boys is easier, and if you have sons it's worth trying for three.
Nanny Ogg
Burroughs Guy
> Latest news: The Attorney General of Texas, wheelchair bound due to
a tree
> falling upon him some years ago, has filed suit in federal court
> maintaining that the "access to state and local government buildings"
> portion of the Americans with Disabilities Act is unconstitutional
on the
> grounds that the Commerce Clause does not cover states and local
> governments. The prospect of the case ascending all the way to the
> Supremes to be argued by a guy in a wheelchair presents one of those
> moments when furriners become amazed and or amused at the dynmaics
of the
> US justice system.
The Klingons have a saying: Only Nixon could go to China.
--
Burroughs "or was it Romulans?" Guy
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> David (m...@davidsprings.com) wrote:
> : "Phil Edwards" <amr...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> : > They're related inasmuch as they're things I (Phil Edwards, born 1960)
> : > had never heard of before I started reading Usenet (in May 1996).
> You never heard of the Second Amendment?
Check his e-mail address.
I'll bet you there are a lot of British laws you never heard
of either.
Charles
--
"And some rin up hill and down dale, knapping the
chucky stanes to pieces wi' hammers, like sae mony
road-makers run daft -- they say it is to see how
the warld was made!"