Carrots- not Orange, but blue.
Zonky
Apparently, Carrots were not 'naturally' orange- they are traditionally
blue. The dutch crossbred them to create a vegetable in their national
colours. This new improved(TM) vegetable became much more popular that the
traditional blue ones and dominated world supply.
I don't suppose anyone has heard this one before, and can produce any
evidence on its factuality?
Z.
--
Please remove my_pants when replying by email.
Lara
> Apparently, Carrots were not 'naturally' orange- they are traditionally
> blue. The dutch crossbred them to create a vegetable in their national
> colours. This new improved(TM) vegetable became much more popular that the
> traditional blue ones and dominated world supply.
>
> I don't suppose anyone has heard this one before, and can produce any
> evidence on its factuality?
Purple. A little bit of Googling suggests that pre-domestication, most
carrots were white(ish), but that the first widely cultivated carrots
were purple.
Here's one report on the new old purple carrots:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1991768.stm
Lara
dimestore
> Purple.
Of course.
Any fan of George Carlin knows there is no such thing as "blue food".
Olivers
As noted earlier, the Maroon carrot (coincidentally one of the university's
colors along with white, leading to a new insignia, carrot crossed with
daikon) was developed at Texas A&M University's School for That Sort of
Thing (along with the heatless jalapeno for the Campbell Soup/Pace's
Picante Kitchens) and is occasionally sold down at my supermercado, HEB
(named for Howard Edward Butt, grocer, philantropist, who, unlike Jim Hogg,
had no daughters named Ima and Ura).
TM "No broccoli on that turkey's divan" Oliver
D.M. Procida
> I don't suppose anyone has heard this one before, and can produce any
> evidence on its factuality?
It was all over the news here as a hur hur hur item a couple of years
ago, when one of the big British supermarkets (Sainsbury's, may they rot
in hell forever, the fucking bastards) decided they would sell purple
carrots. I don't know if they still do, or how exactly they were
described.
D.M. Procida
--
Apple Juice Ltd
Chapter Arts Centre
Market Road www.apple-juice.co.uk
Cardiff CF5 1QE 029 2019 0140
Ben Zimmer
news:1g77bzp.tauf7hia1g0kN%{nospam}@waawa.cx...
See also <http://groups.google.com/groups?th=1b30563f04a39e27> on the
origins of orange carrots.
Patriotic Dutch farmers in the 16th century bred orange carrots in honor of
the House of Orange, the Dutch royal family. But it's an etymological
coincidence that the House of Orange (from "Orenge", a town in France)
shares its name with the color term (from Sanskrit "naranga" via Arabic
"naranj").
Burroughs Guy
> It was all over the news here as a hur hur hur item a couple of years
> ago, when one of the big British supermarkets (Sainsbury's, may they rot
> in hell forever, the fucking bastards) decided they would sell purple
> carrots. I don't know if they still do, or how exactly they were
> described.
Flamingos don't produce red pigment. The red color in their feathers
comes from the shrimp they eat. If a flamingo has a wide choice of
food and develops a taste for some opther food, it will end up just
black and white. Oh wait; that was the wrong story.
Chickens don't produce yellow pigment. The yellow color in the yolks
of their eggs comes from the food they eat. If a chicken has a wide
shoice of food and develops a taste for food without yellow pigment,
you will get eggs with light colored (off white) yolks. This is
normally considered a major failure. People think the egg is from a
diseased chicken and is dangerous to eat.
So I thought a great marketing opportunity would be white yolk eggs.
The chickens are all raised in cages where their diet is carefully
controlled anyway. Control the diet of some chickens in order to
produce white polk eggs. Call it a delicacy; pack it in half dozens
with a price tag saying $3.59, then knock it down to $2.99 for a half
dozen, and a million people will just have to have it.
--
Burroughs Guy
I knew the MCP when it was just a chess program.
james
Burroughs Guy <BurroughsG...@aol.com> wrote:
>Flamingos don't produce red pigment.
It's hard to tell from your words, but I feel compelled to point out
this is not a myth at all. I saw a crop of unpigmented flamingos at a
zoo, and I preferred them non-pink.
James "canthaxanthin the night away" m.
D.M. Procida
> The chickens are all raised in cages
Yeuch. Not the ones I choose to eat, thanks very much. I can't believe
that choice is not available to you either.
Concerning the falsely-perceived health value of food pigments,
apparently in Britain consider brown eggs much more wholesome and
desirable, whereas in the US they prefer ones with white shells.
D.M. Procida
> Concerning the falsely-perceived health value of food pigments,
> apparently in Britain consider brown eggs much more wholesome and
^consumers
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> Chickens don't produce yellow pigment. The yellow color in the yolks
> of their eggs comes from the food they eat. If a chicken has a wide
> shoice of food and develops a taste for food without yellow pigment,
> you will get eggs with light colored (off white) yolks. This is
> normally considered a major failure. People think the egg is from a
> diseased chicken and is dangerous to eat.
Back when I raised chickens I also grew giant pumpkins. I would
roll a few of those into the shed for the winter and saw off a
slab of frozen pumpkin several times a week and throw it into
the chicken coop. This not only gave them something to do during
those rather boring winter days and nights, but also made sure
that their egg yolks were a nice light orange colour, which was
favoured by the health-food store I sold the eggs to. Actually,
they _were_ healthier, since the colour came from beta
carotine, a vitamin-A precursor. The fact that the eggs were
also fertile didn't really make them any healthier, as far as
I know, but the health-food people thought so, and paid me
wholesale what ordinary eggs sold for retail.
Charles
--
"And some rin up hill and down dale, knapping the
chucky stanes to pieces wi' hammers, like sae mony
road-makers run daft -- they say it is to see how
the warld was made!"
Olivers
> Burroughs Guy <BurroughsG...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> The chickens are all raised in cages
>
> Yeuch. Not the ones I choose to eat, thanks very much. I can't believe
> that choice is not available to you either.
>
> Concerning the falsely-perceived health value of food pigments,
> apparently in Britain consider brown eggs much more wholesome and
> desirable, whereas in the US they prefer ones with white shells.
>
> D.M. Procida
Akshulee, brown eggs are a premium item at supermercados in/around my
venue, selling for about 50% more per dozen (to the natural conscious).
In the US version, chicken stock/broth and chicken fat (and chicken and
dumplings) used to be a lot yellower than today's bland versions, as the
chicken feed of the times (inc. all sorts of nice bugs, goat turds and
other small ground objects) produced more colorful fat and feets, etc.
Today's pelleted and penned pullets are a bland and blond lot.
Then there's farm raised "steelhead trout", the feed of which is dosed with
a bit a annatto (ground achiote seed, a cheap substitute for saffron, much
used in the food industry, but favored in Mexican restaurants to tint the
"Spamich" rice) to provide its splended orange color.
Here's a question re: flamencos. They're pink from eating shrimp,
presumably the common "pink" Atlantic Shrimp. What about flamencos from
Central America which dine on Gulf Greys and Browns? Are they grey?
Brown? ....And why do grey and brown shrimp turn as pink as pinks when
cooked? Do Flamencos cook their shrimp?
TM "In search of green maraschino trees" Oliver
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> Concerning the falsely-perceived health value of food pigments,
> apparently in Britain consider brown eggs much more wholesome and
> desirable, whereas in the US they prefer ones with white shells.
Depends where you live. In New England [all six states with
the possible exception of lower Fairfield County, CT], the
preference is for brown eggs. Good reason historically in that
up until about 1960 one knew that brown eggs were local, and
therefore much more likely to be fresh than white eggs.
I used to think that brown egg shells were thicker than white
egg shells, based on the fact that they didn't break as
easily. Turns out they are thinner, but stronger. Other than
that there is no nutritional value related to egg shell colour.
Karen J. Cravens
news:Xns946A5C1...@216.196.97.132:
> Here's a question re: flamencos. They're pink from eating shrimp,
> presumably the common "pink" Atlantic Shrimp. What about flamencos
> from Central America which dine on Gulf Greys and Browns? Are they
> grey? Brown? ....And why do grey and brown shrimp turn as pink as
> pinks when cooked? Do Flamencos cook their shrimp?
Carotenoids. Carotenoid-protein complexes are greenish. Dissociate the
protein (by cooking or digesting) and you get free-floating orangey
carotenoids. That's why carrots get darker orange when you cook them...
they start out more orange than the shrimp because there's not as much
protein to bind the carotenoid to.
--
Karen J. Cravens
Lee Ayrton
> D.M. Procida wrote:
>
> > Concerning the falsely-perceived health value of food pigments,
> > apparently in Britain consider brown eggs much more wholesome and
> > desirable, whereas in the US they prefer ones with white shells.
>
> Depends where you live. In New England [all six states with
> the possible exception of lower Fairfield County, CT], the
Which is really part of New York anyway...
> preference is for brown eggs. Good reason historically in that
> up until about 1960 one knew that brown eggs were local, and
> therefore much more likely to be fresh than white eggs.
Locally (northeast CT), brown eggs are still advertised that way. There
was, for a time, an advertising jingle:
Brown eggs
Are local eggs
And local eggs
Are fresh!
Lee "poacher" ayrton
james
D.M. Procida <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:
>Concerning the falsely-perceived health value of food pigments,
>apparently in Britain consider brown eggs much more wholesome and
>desirable, whereas in the US they prefer ones with white shells.
Back home at my family's farm (not located in the US, but in
Texas, which is close enough), we get so many fresh eggs that they
become a nuisance. Depending on the layer, the eggs are white or brown,
and very often the brown ones have double yolks.
These chickens are not kept in a cage, unless you consider a half-acre
pen to be a cage... Far as I know, we don't put anything in their diet
for colour. More eggs than my mom could possibly eat...
James "keeps the dogs happy" M.
L0nD0t.$t0we11
> D.M. Procida wrote:
>
>> It was all over the news here as a hur hur hur item a couple of years
>> ago, when one of the big British supermarkets (Sainsbury's, may they rot
>> in hell forever, the fucking bastards) decided they would sell purple
>> carrots. I don't know if they still do, or how exactly they were
>> described.
>
> Flamingos don't produce red pigment. The red color in their feathers
> comes from the shrimp they eat. If a flamingo has a wide choice of
> food and develops a taste for some opther food, it will end up just
> black and white. Oh wait; that was the wrong story.
True. It is M&M's that end up just black and white, however it
is either a clever advertising gimmick nobody seems to know about
or merely a government plot to remove the aphrodisiac ones.
>
> Chickens don't produce yellow pigment. The yellow color in the yolks
> of their eggs comes from the food they eat. If a chicken has a wide
> shoice of food and develops a taste for food without yellow pigment,
> you will get eggs with light colored (off white) yolks. This is
> normally considered a major failure. People think the egg is from a
> diseased chicken and is dangerous to eat.
I've never seen a purely off-white yolk, but you can definitely
turn them dark blood red with any number of food items, or a really
dark purplish red by feeding your *neighbor's* chickens Cascara
berries. Almost as much fun as feeding your neighbor's milk cow
wild onions.
>
> So I thought a great marketing opportunity would be white yolk eggs.
> The chickens are all raised in cages where their diet is carefully
> controlled anyway. Control the diet of some chickens in order to
> produce white polk eggs. Call it a delicacy; pack it in half dozens
> with a price tag saying $3.59, then knock it down to $2.99 for a half
> dozen, and a million people will just have to have it.
Perhaps you could also offer rainbow yolk assortments?
L0nD0t.$t0we11
>
> Then there's farm raised "steelhead trout", the feed of which is dosed with
> a bit a annatto (ground achiote seed, a cheap substitute for saffron, much
> used in the food industry, but favored in Mexican restaurants to tint the
> "Spamich" rice) to provide its splended orange color.
I actually didn't know that the color of Rainbow Trout flesh was
also a result of their food preferences. Technically [well at
least according to the liars^H^H^H^H^Hfishermen out west here]
a steelhead trout is an ocean going rainbow that spawns in the
coastal creeks but spends most of its life in the nearest ocean.
Both are alleged to be just landlocked forms of salmon.
>
> Do Flamencos cook their shrimp?
No, they put them on the floor and dance around them.
Burroughs Guy
> Back when I raised chickens I also grew giant pumpkins. I would
> roll a few of those into the shed for the winter and saw off a
> slab of frozen pumpkin several times a week and throw it into
> the chicken coop. This not only gave them something to do during
> those rather boring winter days and nights, but also made sure
> that their egg yolks were a nice light orange colour, which was
> favoured by the health-food store I sold the eggs to. Actually,
> they _were_ healthier, since the colour came from beta
> carotine, a vitamin-A precursor. The fact that the eggs were
> also fertile didn't really make them any healthier, as far as
> I know, but the health-food people thought so, and paid me
> wholesale what ordinary eggs sold for retail.
This is the concept behind my white yolk sca^wproduct idea. Give
chickens a diet very low in pigment to produce white yolk eggs, and
then advertise that this is the latest thing that everyone needs to
eat. Madison Avenue can get the American consumer to buy anything
once. Advertise the "lighter" taste and people will eat it up. Some
people will notice that they actually taste different and they'll keep
eating them for months before they realize they taste different
because they're virtually tasteless. There are all kinds of specialty
eggs going for higher prices. You have eggs laid on satin pillows and
eggs laid by chickens who get a daily massage. There's obviously a
sucke^wmarket for this product.
--
Burroughs "white gold mine" Guy
Burroughs Guy
> Here's a question re: flamencos. They're pink from eating shrimp,
> presumably the common "pink" Atlantic Shrimp. What about flamencos
from
> Central America which dine on Gulf Greys and Browns? Are they grey?
> Brown? ....And why do grey and brown shrimp turn as pink as pinks
when
> cooked? Do Flamencos cook their shrimp?
Yes, Gulf Flamencos cook their shrimp, but they don't get their color
from the shrimp. They get it from the cocktail sauce.
--
Burroughs "or so I've heard" Guy
Anthony McCafferty
<1g78gow.1j7toxqsrey48N%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk>,
real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk (D.M. Procida) writes:
>Concerning the falsely-perceived health value of food pigments,
>apparently in Britain consider brown eggs much more wholesome and
>desirable, whereas in the US they prefer ones with white shells.
Nope. A good generalization, but there are real regional differences, and
even socio-cultural ones, throughout the US. New Englanders and some other
Northrons run to brown, Southrons and many Yorkists to white. (Or, to put it
another way, wheat and beef to brown, corn [1] and pork to white.) Further
divisions along other dividing lines; either is seen as "healthier" or "more
organic" in certain parts.
Anthony "Paging Dr. Dimmick" McCafferty
[1] Maize, that is.
NancyB
<BurroughsG...@aol.com> wrote:
>This is the concept behind my white yolk sca^wproduct idea. Give
>chickens a diet very low in pigment to produce white yolk eggs, and
>then advertise that this is the latest thing that everyone needs to
>eat.
Designer eggs:
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/columnnn/nn030526.html
Nancy "an egg's not just for Easter" B
Anthony McCafferty
<lay...@panix.com> writes:
> Brown eggs
> Are local eggs
> And local eggs
> Are fresh!
Weird. Your reply showed up on my ISP before CD's original.
Anthony "have I mentioned I hate my ISP?" McCafferty
Lee Ayrton
>
> Then there's farm raised "steelhead trout", the feed of which is dosed
> with a bit a annatto (ground achiote seed, a cheap substitute for
Clearly, the annatto is to keep the salmon pink in the can.
Lee "Cultivating the classics" Ayrton
R H Draney
>
> Nope. A good generalization, but there are real regional differences, and
>even socio-cultural ones, throughout the US. New Englanders and some other
>Northrons run to brown, Southrons and many Yorkists to white. (Or, to put it
>another way, wheat and beef to brown, corn [1] and pork to white.) Further
>divisions along other dividing lines; either is seen as "healthier" or "more
>organic" in certain parts.
>
The worst instance of this kind of thing is canned tuna...when I were a child,
you could find little cans of tuna in chunk, flake (both white) or "grated"
(dark)...now I can't find the dark grated tuna, and it was always my
favorite...apparently dark tuna is now seen in the US as suitable only for cat
food, while in Japan it's the white tuna that's considered cheap and
flavorless....
R H "mom says to eat a green thing every day; I found some bread at the back of
the fridge--does that count?" Draney
R H Draney
>>
>> controlled anyway. Control the diet of some chickens in order to
>> produce white polk eggs.
Centuries hence, archaeologists will use this post to prove that the eleventh
president of the United States was oviparous....r
TeaLady (Mari C.)
in
news:1g78gow.1j7toxqsrey48N%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-
juice
.co.uk:
> Concerning the falsely-perceived health value of food pigments,
> apparently in Britain consider brown eggs much more wholesome
> and desirable, whereas in the US they prefer ones with white
> shells.
>
>
Ick, I don't like the big white ones. I prefer the eggs from
yard hens, brown with light yolks. I've even dealt with the
fertilized ones (a rarity on my aunt's farmette, as she was
almost literally murder on roosters that got into the yard) and,
aside from a mild "eww oh wow" reaction, enjoyed them. Pink
scrambles aren't for everyone, tho.
--
Tea"never saw the featherd yolks, tho, thank goodness"Lady / mari
conroy
"Stated to me for a fact. I only tell it as I got it. I am
willing to believe it. I can believe anything." Sam Clemens
Spressobean at yahoo has a spam problem. A better address is
culcie at yahoo dot com.
Anthony McCafferty
writes:
>The worst instance of this kind of thing is canned tuna...when I were a
>child,
>you could find little cans of tuna in chunk, flake (both white) or "grated"
>(dark)...now I can't find the dark grated tuna, and it was always my
>favorite...apparently dark tuna is now seen in the US as suitable only for
>cat
>food, while in Japan it's the white tuna that's considered cheap and
>flavorless....
I think a lot of this is from the USanian [1] habit of treating high protein
or high fat stuff as the base of a meal, vs. the Restadawoildian habit of using
them as accents. If you make a tuna salad worthy of the name "salad" here, you
are viewed as stingy. Black tuna in that proportion is overpowering.
Anthony "..and just try to explain that, no, you don't want extra cheese on the
pizza" McCafferty
[1] Broad Generalization Alert. Many specific examples (the old roast beef of
England comes to mind) will contradict it.
Richard Fitzpatrick
> Lara said:
> >
> > Purple.
>
> Of course.
> Any fan of George Carlin knows there is no such thing as "blue food".
Because we all know that blue food will turn you into God-like aliens
who are not quite sure what to do next, but will think of something.
Richard "flowering megatons" Fitzpatrick
Burroughs Guy
> I've never seen a purely off-white yolk,
I have seen one. My maternal grandmother was visiting our house in
1965 (L). She never would crack an egg directly into the pan or
mixing bowl. She always cracked each egg into a little glass. Then
she looked at the contents and dumped it into pan. My mother
criticised this practice. When my mother heard the explanation that
sometimes eggs were bad, she was incredulous. She said she has bought
eggs from this same dairy for years, and all the eggs are candled, so
there's no chance of getting a bad egg anymore.
The next day, my grandmother cracked an egg into her little glass, and
there was a white yolk. As I recall it actually looked a very light
gray color. My granmother said "see" and my mother (standing right
next to her) had to agree this was a bad egg. It was many years later
I found out how egg yolks get their pigment, and then I realized the
egg hadn't really been bad.
> Perhaps you could also offer rainbow yolk assortments?
Ooh! I like that.
TdN
> D.M. Procida wrote:
>
> > Concerning the falsely-perceived health value of food pigments,
> > apparently in Britain consider brown eggs much more wholesome and
> > desirable, whereas in the US they prefer ones with white shells.
>
> Depends where you live. In New England [all six states with
> the possible exception of lower Fairfield County, CT], the
> preference is for brown eggs. Good reason historically in that
> up until about 1960 one knew that brown eggs were local, and
> therefore much more likely to be fresh than white eggs.
And up until about ten years ago (Lasnerian), one used to encounter
little earwormy radio commercials of sprightly moppets chanting "Brown
eggs are local eggs, and local eggs are FRESH eggs!"
T "I'm so glad I'm not a Beta" dN
Ann Burlingham
> The worst instance of this kind of thing is canned tuna...when I
> were a child, you could find little cans of tuna in chunk, flake
> (both white) or "grated" (dark)...now I can't find the dark grated
> tuna, and it was always my favorite...apparently dark tuna is now
> seen in the US as suitable only for cat food
aha! so there *is* a market for people eating cat food.
David Winsemius
Anton Sherwood
> Patriotic Dutch farmers in the 16th century bred orange carrots
> in honor of the House of Orange, the Dutch royal family.
> But it's an etymological coincidence
known to the layman as a `pun'
> that the House of Orange (from "Orenge", a town in France)
> shares its name with the color term (from Sanskrit "naranga"
> via Arabic "naranj").
The town in France is spelled _Orange_ (from Roman _Arausione_).
The Dutch form of the name is _Oranje_, sometimes _Oraanje_.
_Orenge_ appears to be the name of a search engine.
--
Anton Sherwood, http://www.ogre.nu/
Ben Zimmer
Here's the AHD etymology for "orange":
http://www.bartleby.com/61/52/O0105200.html
Middle English, from Old French <pume orenge>, translation
and alteration (influenced by <Orenge>, <Orange>, a town
in France) of Old Italian <melarancio>: <mela>, fruit +
<arancio>, orange tree (alteration of Arabic <nāranj>,
from Persian <nārang>, from Sanskrit <nārangah>, possibly
of Dravidian origin).
[...]
The important word for the development of our term is Old
Italian <melarancio>, derived from <mela>, "fruit," and
<arancio>, "orange tree," from Arabic <nāranj>. Old
Italian <melarancio> was translated into Old French as
<pume orenge>, the <o> replacing the <a> because of the
influence of the name of the town of Orange, from which
oranges reached the northern part of France. The final
stage of the odyssey of the word was its borrowing into
English from the Old French form <orenge>.
Old French <orenge> for the name of the fruit is attested as early as
the 13th century, under influence from the town of Orange, then spelled
<Orenge> (there may also have been some influence from <or> 'gold').
Since Orange/Orenge was a center for the orange trade, it's not
surprising that the town's name influenced the fruit's name (both
borrowed into English as <orange> and into Dutch as <oranje>). By the
reign of William of Orange (Willem van Oranje) in the 16th century (by
which time French/English <orange> and Dutch <oranje> had begun to be
used as color terms), the separate etymologies of the town and the
fruit/color had no doubt been forgotten (except by philologists).
So I wouldn't necessarily consider it a "pun" for Dutch loyalists to
associate orange-colored things (like carrots) with the House of Orange.
Since the color term and the royal family name had become conflated, it
didn't require a conscious play on words to connect the two. The same
thing happened in England among those loyal to William III, the grandson
of William of Orange, according to the OED:
The accidental coincidence of this name with that of the
fruit and colour (ORANGE n.1), made the wearing of orange
ribbons, scarfs, cockades, orange-lilies, etc., a symbol
of attachment to William III, and to the principles of
the Revolution settlement of 1689, and led to their use
by the Orange lodges and Orangemen.
Ben "but loyal poets still couldn't find a rhyme" Zimmer
Donna Richoux
I think strongly that AHD was misled by somebody on that "Orange was a
center for the orange trade" bit. No, that was you, wasn't it? They
said, "from which oranges reached the northern part of France."
Anyway, it sounds entirely like backward theorizing. The histories of
the town that I find say nothing about it ever having trading oranges or
having grown oranges. It grew graps and olives and gathered truffles.
Nor was it a seaport, it is inland. It's quite enough to justify the
name of the town by saying that it came its ancient Roman name, Arausio.
http://www.ancientroute.com/cities/orange.htm
"Originally named Aurosia after a Celtic water-god,
from 36 BCE the Romans called it Colonia Firma Julia
Secundorum Arausio"
The Orange-trade theory sounds exactly like everybody assuming that
English placenames starting with "Wool-" related to the wool trade, when
actually all but one came from other sources (like wolf and Wulfric) and
even the remaining one is doubtful.
Now, about the "pun" question. What is a pun if not playing on two
meanings of a word? If "orange" meant a color (it mostly meant the
fruit) and "Orange" happened to be a proper name, then it is a pun to
use one to refer to the other. True, it's such a simple as to be
unremarkable in this day and age, but still a pun. If a candidate's last
name was Bell and people wore badges with a bell on them, wouldn't you
see that as a sort of visual pun? And what if if the candidate was named
Brown? It doesn't work for most names, though.
--
Best - Donna Richoux
Mary Shafer
wrote:
> Now, about the "pun" question. What is a pun if not playing on two
> meanings of a word? If "orange" meant a color (it mostly meant the
> fruit) and "Orange" happened to be a proper name, then it is a pun to
> use one to refer to the other. True, it's such a simple as to be
> unremarkable in this day and age, but still a pun. If a candidate's last
> name was Bell and people wore badges with a bell on them, wouldn't you
> see that as a sort of visual pun? And what if if the candidate was named
> Brown? It doesn't work for most names, though.
The Bell/bell example is what's called a "canting" charge in heraldry.
I don't think a plain orange badge would be, but using an orange for
Orange would.
Mary "who can't think of the usual example, but will after hitting
'send'"
--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer
mil...@qnet.com
Ben Zimmer
> Ben Zimmer <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
[...]
> > the 13th century, under influence from the town of Orange, then spelled
> > <Orenge> (there may also have been some influence from <or> 'gold').
> > Since Orange/Orenge was a center for the orange trade, it's not
> > surprising that the town's name influenced the fruit's name (both
>
> I think strongly that AHD was misled by somebody on that "Orange was a
> center for the orange trade" bit. No, that was you, wasn't it? They
> said, "from which oranges reached the northern part of France."
>
> Anyway, it sounds entirely like backward theorizing. The histories of
> the town that I find say nothing about it ever having trading oranges or
> having grown oranges. It grew graps and olives and gathered truffles.
> Nor was it a seaport, it is inland. It's quite enough to justify the
> name of the town by saying that it came its ancient Roman name, Arausio.
>
> http://www.ancientroute.com/cities/orange.htm
> "Originally named Aurosia after a Celtic water-god,
> from 36 BCE the Romans called it Colonia Firma Julia
> Secundorum Arausio"
>
> The Orange-trade theory sounds exactly like everybody assuming that
> English placenames starting with "Wool-" related to the wool trade, when
> actually all but one came from other sources (like wolf and Wulfric) and
> even the remaining one is doubtful.
Hang on, I never questioned the derivation of the town's name from Roman
<Arausio(ne)>. I said that the fruit's name (on its way from Italian to
French) was apparently influenced by the town's name, not that the
town's name is somehow derived from the fruit's name.
But I take your point that the purported connection between Orange and
the orange trade may simply be "backward theorizing". I dug that up
from Michael Quinion's usually reliable column:
http://www.quinion.com/words/articles/colour.htm
Quinion's source may have been John Ayto. These messages quote Ayto in
_Dictionary of Word Origins_ and _A Gourmet's Guide: Food and Drink from
A to Z_ as claiming that Orange was a center of the orange trade:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1993111222...@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu
http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-FRUITS/fruit-citrus-msg.html
Perhaps it was enough that people (say, in Holland and England)
*thought* that oranges came to Europe by way of Orange. As we've
discussed over on alt.usage.english, that's often how folk etymology
works-- cf. our discussions of "gingham" (incorrectly linked with the
French town of Guingamp), "fustian" (perhaps incorrectly linked with the
Egyptian town of Fustat), "Jerusalem artichokes", "Jordan almonds", etc.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3EBFB604...@midway.uchicago.edu
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3F96D9CC...@midway.uchicago.edu
> Now, about the "pun" question. What is a pun if not playing on two
> meanings of a word? If "orange" meant a color (it mostly meant the
> fruit) and "Orange" happened to be a proper name, then it is a pun to
> use one to refer to the other. True, it's such a simple as to be
> unremarkable in this day and age, but still a pun.
Yes, I suppose. But if the followers of the House of Orange thought
that oranges came from Orange, then I don't see it as much of a pun for
them to connect the fruit to the royal house. (Once the connection got
extended to similarly colored things like carrots, then I'd consider it
to be a bit more punnish.) On this Dutch page about the House of
Orange, I see there's a book called _De Oranjes in een handomdraai: ABC
van ons vorstenhuis_ that has oranges on the cover:
http://members.home.nl/pushkar/
So is that a visual pun or simply an illustration of the supposed link
between Orange and oranges?
Ben "juicing this for all its worth" Zimmer
Tim McDaniel
Mary Shafer <mil...@qnet.com> wrote:
>The Bell/bell example is what's called a "canting" charge in heraldry.
The Talbot earls of Shewsbury had three dogs on their coats of arms.
The Lucy family had two fish. &c. Sometimes, you had to know a bit
of terminology, perhaps Old French, to get the cant.
You could sometimes get entire rebuses, though they were rare.
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com; tm...@us.ibm.com is my work address
Donna Richoux
> Yes, I suppose. But if the followers of the House of Orange thought
> that oranges came from Orange, then I don't see it as much of a pun for
> them to connect the fruit to the royal house.
But if they didn't, then it is.
That's why I got snappish before (sorry, I didn't mean to aim it at
you). Two reasons for the name of one town were too many.
I might write to Quinion.
Another complication is the fact that oranges aren't even called oranges
in Dutch, they're "sinaasappels". It may be that the bitter oranjes of
one century may have been replaced by sweeter sinaasappels in another
century, but man, is this stuff tricky to track down... Yes, that
history page you gave me says that the first oranges to reach Europe and
to be grown in Spain (Citrus aurantium), were bitter and green (!). They
were followed by Japanese mandarins, and a century or so later, the
sweet Chinese oranges (sinaasappelen means Chinese apples).
Citrus sinensis, which ... include Navel and Valencia oranges, were
introduced to Europe about 1635.
>(Once the connection got
> extended to similarly colored things like carrots, then I'd consider it
> to be a bit more punnish.) On this Dutch page about the House of
> Orange, I see there's a book called _De Oranjes in een handomdraai: ABC
> van ons vorstenhuis_ that has oranges on the cover:
>
> http://members.home.nl/pushkar/
>
> So is that a visual pun or simply an illustration of the supposed link
> between Orange and oranges?
I looked at some pages in Dutch. I haven't found any really good
summary, but I found one piece of evidence from 1626 that the
"oranjeboom" (orange-tree) was used as a symbol for the House of Oranje
then, and I imagine it was before and after that as well. So for someone
to use it all these centuries later would make it more of a chestnut,
don't you think?
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Deborah Stevenson
>I looked at some pages in Dutch. I haven't found any really good
>summary, but I found one piece of evidence from 1626 that the
>"oranjeboom" (orange-tree) was used as a symbol for the House of Oranje
>then, and I imagine it was before and after that as well. So for someone
>to use it all these centuries later would make it more of a chestnut,
>don't you think?
Anglophone sighting any help? In _One of Our Aircraft Is Missing_, the
loyal Dutch family, willing to help the stranded English airmen hide from
the Nazis, codes its political views with orange blossoms.
--
Deborah Stevenson
dste...@OBSTACLESuiuc.edu
[eliminate OBSTACLES to email me]
Ben Zimmer
>
> Ben Zimmer <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> > Yes, I suppose. But if the followers of the House of Orange thought
> > that oranges came from Orange, then I don't see it as much of a pun for
> > them to connect the fruit to the royal house.
>
> But if they didn't, then it is.
>
> That's why I got snappish before (sorry, I didn't mean to aim it at
> you). Two reasons for the name of one town were too many.
>
> I might write to Quinion.
Sorry to beat a dead orange, but who proposed "two reasons for the name
of one town"? Not me, or Quinion, or Quinion's apparent source John
Ayto [1]. Quinion and Ayto don't have anything to say about the origin
of the place name Orange. They're talking about how Old Italian name
for the fruit, <(mel)arancio>, became Old French <(pume) orenge>. The
first vowel changed from <a> to <o>, presumably because there happened
to be a town called <Orenge> (a secondary explanation is an association
with <or> 'gold'). On this point AHD agrees [2].
Now the second issue is, did Orange have anything to do with oranges at
the time (which would have helped influence the name of the fruit), or
was that connection only made in retrospect, like the presumption that
Jerusalem artichokes came from Jerusalem and Jordan almonds came from
Jordan? This is where Quinion and Ayto may be on shaky ground (not in
any erroneous derivation of the town's name). Based on what you've said
about the town's history, it doesn't seem likely that Orange was heavily
involved in the orange trade. But AHD says that "oranges reached the
northern part of France" via Orange, and a 1998 Random House "Word of
the Day" column also states that oranges were shipped through there [3].
I agree that this seems like a huge coincidence, but we now have four
reasonably reliable sources claiming it to be true. Perhaps the role of
Orange in the medieval orange trade was somewhat peripheral but was
magnified in the retelling as the House of Orange (and its emblematic
fruit) grew in prominence.
Ben "now let's move on to 'orange pekoe'" Zimmer
[1] You can see what Ayto has to say in _An A-Z of Food and Drink_ via
Amazon's "Search Inside the Book" feature:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0192803522/?v=search-inside&keywords=orenge
[2] http://www.bartleby.com/61/52/O0105200.html
This etymology fails to note the role of Old Provençal in all of this.
The Roman city of Arausio was known as <Aurenja> in Old Provençal, and
the fruit was known as <auranja>. Both the city and fruit eventually
came to be known in Provençal as <Orenge>, then as <Orange>. See John
McPhee's fascinating book _Oranges_ (pp. 64-5):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0374512973/?v=search-inside&keywords=Arausio
[3] http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19980408
TeaLady (Mari C.)
news:40063CFB...@midway.uchicago.edu:
> Ben "now let's move on to 'orange pekoe'" Zimmer
>
heh. One of the guys at work won't drink my tea, says he doesn't
like "orange" flavoring. I haven't explained to him, yet, that
orange cut pekoe is different than orange flavoring.
I might not ever. Then I don't have to share.
--
TeaLady / mari conroy
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> The Talbot earls of Shewsbury had three dogs on their coats of arms.
> The Lucy family had two fish. &c. Sometimes, you had to know a bit
> of terminology, perhaps Old French, to get the cant.
And the Dymoke coats of arms had two variants:
a. A Boar's head, from "Ty mocha", some form of old
Welsh which referred to a pen in which one kept pigs
on market days. [Ty-house, mocha-pigs]
b. A pair of donkey's ears, from "dy [two] moke [another
name for a donkey].
Charles
--
"And some rin up hill and down dale, knapping the
chucky stanes to pieces wi' hammers, like sae mony
road-makers run daft -- they say it is to see how
the warld was made!"
Tim McDaniel
_Anglo-Norman Armory Two_, Cecil R. Humphery-Smith, p. 109,
records Phut Dymmok as bearing (probably ca. 1300)
Sable, two lions passant argent crowned or.
No, I don't know what sort of name "Phut" is.
Anthony McCafferty
>And the Dymoke coats of arms had two variants:
>a. A Boar's head, from "Ty mocha", some form of old
>Welsh which referred to a pen in which one kept pigs
>on market days. [Ty-house, mocha-pigs]
Sure it's Welsh? Gaellic lost the "P" early, althought regained it, so our
friend the porcus became a 'muc' instead of a 'pig'. Welsh was better about
preserving its "P"s, even if it did often alter them to "B".
Looks online: yup, that is Welsh. The "Ti" also tracks nicely with Gaelic;
that's the word we see in "shanty", and maybe Baltimore, for "house".
I thought your lot hung out in Scotland originally; is this from survivals
of Old Welsh in Galloways, or what?
Anthony "a small difference between a mac and a muc, sometimes" McCafferty
Deborah Stevenson
>In article <Zv9Pb.10499$t04...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>, "Charles Wm.
>Dimmick" <cdim...@snet.net> writes:
>>And the Dymoke coats of arms had two variants:
>>a. A Boar's head, from "Ty mocha", some form of old
>>Welsh which referred to a pen in which one kept pigs
>>on market days. [Ty-house, mocha-pigs]
> Sure it's Welsh?
Yup.
>Looks online: yup, that is Welsh. The "Ti" also tracks nicely with Gaelic;
>that's the word we see in "shanty", and maybe Baltimore, for "house".
And that there blue water.
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> In article <Zv9Pb.10499$t04...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>,
> Charles Wm. Dimmick <cdim...@snet.net> wrote:
>
>>And the Dymoke coats of arms had two variants:
>
>
> _Anglo-Norman Armory Two_, Cecil R. Humphery-Smith, p. 109,
> records Phut Dymmok as bearing (probably ca. 1300)
> Sable, two lions passant argent crowned or.
That is also correct. I don't remember the terminology,
but the actual shield is as you describe: two golden
lions, stretched out, one on top of the other, on a
black background. However, the crest, or whatever it
is, that sits on top of the shield may show up with
either the boar's head or the pair of donkey ears. The
gate to the Dymoke estate, at Scrivelsby, has a lion
on either side, and is sometimes called the Lion Gate.
This branch of the Dymoke family usually used the
donkey ears as a crest, but I seem to remember the
substitution of a knight's head, encased in armor, in
later renderings. Another branch of the family used
the Boar's Head crest. Sources buried away somewhere.
Charles Wm. Dimmick
>>And the Dymoke coats of arms had two variants:
>>a. A Boar's head, from "Ty mocha", some form of old
>>Welsh which referred to a pen in which one kept pigs
>>on market days. [Ty-house, mocha-pigs]
> Looks online: yup, that is Welsh. The "Ti" also tracks nicely with Gaelic;
> that's the word we see in "shanty", and maybe Baltimore, for "house".
>
> I thought your lot hung out in Scotland originally; is this from survivals
> of Old Welsh in Galloways, or what?
The little village of Dymoke is on the Welsh border, although
I think it is on the Glouster side. Thomas de Dymoke came
over with William the Conqueror, and got the village as his
share of the loot, or so the family legend says. A descendant
married into the Marmion family and thus ended up with the
Scrivelsby estate in Lincolnshire, and the title of King's
Champion, which went with the estate for some reason. Sir
Walter Scott's work _Marmion_ is anacronistic, and puts the
family near the border with Scotland, which is a bit of a
stretch. My own branch of the family left Scrivelsby under
a dark cloud and landed in Massachusetts in 1635. He also
was extremely inconsistent with the spelling of the surname.
Anthony McCafferty
Dimmick" <cdim...@snet.net> writes:
>The little village of Dymoke is on the Welsh border, although
>I think it is on the Glouster side. Thomas de Dymoke came
>over with William the Conqueror, and got the village as his
>share of the loot, or so the family legend says. A descendant
>married into the Marmion family and thus ended up with the
>Scrivelsby estate in Lincolnshire, and the title of King's
>Champion, which went with the estate for some reason. Sir
>Walter Scott's work _Marmion_ is anacronistic, and puts the
>family near the border with Scotland, which is a bit of a
>stretch.
Interesting. I think you had a great-great-etc uncle, or cousin, who went
up to Scotland along with the Bruces and Balliols and such, if memory serves.
I'd always assumed that someone going to Puritan Massachusetts would have been
from that lot, since:
>My own branch of the family left Scrivelsby under
>a dark cloud and landed in Massachusetts in 1635. He also
>was extremely inconsistent with the spelling of the surname.
I'd expect that the dark cloud was being a little too Protestant? Some of
the King's Champions were all but openly (Roman) Catholic for a while past
"Enery's Reformation.
Anthony "Britrivia" McCafferty
Tim McDaniel
Charles Wm. Dimmick <cdim...@snet.net> wrote:
>and the title of King's Champion, which went with the estate
It's usual for a serjeanty tenancy to attach to the manor. E.g., the
right to present a right glove to the sovereign on his coronation day,
and of supporting his right arm so long as it holds the sceptre,
attaches to the manor of Worksop. Bishopston, or Llan-Deilo-Verwalt,
has Culver House, which has some sort of coronation serjeanty.
Frollibury / Frobury Farm has a serjeantry of keeping the doot of the
king's wardrobe. "To his most dread [my most honourable] lord the
king of Castile & of Leon Duke of Lancaster and steward of England
prays John de Argenthem knight that as he holds the manor of Great
Wymondley in the county of Hertford of our lord the king by grand
serjeanty, that is to say of serving the king at his coronation from
the cup, which service his ancestors have done from time out of memory
for the manor abovesaid ..." (temp. Ric. II, 1377)
It's sort of a special and lesser case of knights' fees -- that
whoever was lord of X owed N knights to the king for forty days' free
service per year.
Tim McDaniel
Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
>Phut Dymmok
The twelfth century saw a strange fad for odd names in western Europe.
E.g., Heloise and Abelard named their son "Astrolabe". The name pool
shrank again drastically starting in the thirteen century. Old
Testament names in general were popular (with Christians) only
starting with Protestants.
I am informed that Phut was the son of Ham, son of Noah: Genesis 10:6,
King James Version. New International Version and others has "Put".
It's a country in Ezekiel 27, but a lot of decendents of Noah were
eponyms for countries (Canaan, most obviously).
Charles Wm. Dimmick
>>ended up with the
>>Scrivelsby estate in Lincolnshire, and the title of King's
>>Champion, which went with the estate for some reason. Sir
>>Walter Scott's work _Marmion_ is anacronistic, and puts the
>>family near the border with Scotland, which is a bit of a
>>stretch.
>
> Interesting. I think you had a great-great-etc uncle, or cousin, who went
> up to Scotland along with the Bruces and Balliols and such, if memory serves.
> I'd always assumed that someone going to Puritan Massachusetts would have been
> from that lot, since:
>
>>My own branch of the family left Scrivelsby under
>>a dark cloud and landed in Massachusetts in 1635. He also
>>was extremely inconsistent with the spelling of the surname.
>
>
> I'd expect that the dark cloud was being a little too Protestant? Some of
> the King's Champions were all but openly (Roman) Catholic for a while past
> "Enery's Reformation.
All that stuff is buried in a file under some work which
has higher priority, but I will try to find it. From memory
it was Robert Dymoke who had the misfortune to slide back
into Roman Catholicism when the country had just officially
become "Protestant", and his grandson [or great-grandson]
[or perhaps grand nephew, there is a problem with there
being at least 4 Thomas Dymokes living at the same time]
Thomas [who is the one who came over to Massachusetts] who
slid the other way and became "Puritan", which was just as
frowned upon in the family of the "King's Champion". Two
things are certain: 1.) Thomas came over here and would
not tell anyone where he had come from, but he had a deed
to all of what is now Barnstable, Massachusetts in his
pocket; 2.) for a "Puritan" he was rather liberal and
soft-hearted. He divided Barnstable into 50 strips
running north-south, and then gave away 49 of them. He
was also noted for extreme tolerance of others.
When I am truly retired I'm going to get all my notes
together and try to get a consistent and coherent picture
of the whole thing. Might even make a good historical
novel.
Anton Sherwood
>> The Bell/bell example is what's called a "canting" charge in heraldry.
Tim McDaniel wrote:
> The Talbot earls of Shewsbury had three dogs on their coats of arms.
> [...]
They had a dog as a crest and/or supporter and/or badge, but their coat
of arms was gules a lion rampant and a border engrailed or.
--
Anton Sherwood (prepend "1" to address)
http://www.ogre.nu/
Anton Sherwood
>> And the Dymoke coats of arms had two variants:
>> a. A Boar's head, from "Ty mocha", some form of old
>> Welsh which referred to a pen in which one kept pigs
>> on market days. [Ty-house, mocha-pigs]
Anthony McCafferty wrote:
> Sure it's Welsh? Gaellic lost the "P" early, althought regained
> it, so our friend the porcus became a 'muc' instead of a 'pig'.
> Welsh was better about preserving its "P"s, even if it did often
> alter them to "B".
Proto-Indo-European /p/ was uniformly dropped in Celtic. The /p/ in
Welsh is from PIE /kw/ (a shift that also happened in a few other
branches of IE).
Irish _muc_, Welsh _moch_ come from some root other than those that gave
us _pig_ and _porc_.