Starving people refuse to eat food aid
Tim McDaniel
> There was a famine somewhere in Central Africa in the
> fifties, and since their staple was corn meal, the US shipped in
> tons and tons of corn meal. But American corn meal is yellow;
> the Africans were used to eating white corn. They wouldn't eat
> it: particularly, the children wouldn't eat it.
This strikes me as ULicious, with the theme of "them ignerent
savages". Can't find this in searching for "famine" in snopes or The
Straight Dope, or for famine and corn in Google Groups here. Anyone
see this one before?
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Alan Follett
This rings faint bells. Possibly vectored in a John W. Campbell
editorial in /Analog/ in the 1960's.
Alan "Have you heard about the new Ethiopian carryout: the Bucket O'
Famine?" Follett
Pete Wilcox
Doesn't this ring of the UL that when America tried to supply Germany with
corn after the 2nd. world war, they refused to eat it, claiming it was
"cattle-food?" IIRC, this was see as a racial slur...
Cheers,
Pete.
slide
Sounds vaguely familiar. Here's a bit of life imitating....
http://www.landinstitute.org/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/09/04/3d751c7faaac1
Madalch
> This strikes me as ULicious, with the theme of "them ignerent
> savages". Can't find this in searching for "famine" in snopes or The
> Straight Dope, or for famine and corn in Google Groups here. Anyone
> see this one before?
I've seen a report (newspaper, tennish years ago) on a refuge camp
(middle east? Africa?) where they had been sent potatoes, but the
refugees refused to eat them. So the children used them as balls in
street games.
Not because they were ignorant, but because they were proud- potatoes
were "poor people's food."
Keith F. Lynch
Yes, in, of all places, rec.arts.sf.written:
Article 1007530 of rec.arts.sf.written:
From: joats...@aol.com (JoatSimeon)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: 06 Apr 2003 11:15:24 GMT
Subject: Re: Population and Disease
> From: David Silberstein davids_strudel_kithrup.combogus.s
> Really? When and where was this?
-- Kenya, late 60's. The American aid corn was a different color
and people who looked like concentration-camp survivors just
wouldn't eat it. There was some sort of rumor of it being bewitched
or poisonous, but basically it just looked funny.
The odd thing is that maize was only introduced to central Kenya a
century befor that. Oh, well, people are odd.
"JoatSimeon" is S.M. Stirling, the author of _Dies the Fire_, _Island
In the Sea of Time_, the Draka novels, and much else.
Here's another, which makes it clear he's reporting a personal
observation:
From: JoatS...@aol.com
Date: Fri May 7, 1999 5:16am
Subject: Re: Babylonian Government & Potential
djolds1@u... writes:
> Dumb priests cause medical deaths. Smart Physicians do not. As
> soon as this sinks in, dumb priests go out of fashion.
-- in my time in Kenya, there was a famine, and American corn was
shipped in as relief supplies. Corn is the staple food in Kenya,
eaten as _posho_(cornmeal mush).
Many people rejected the American maize, _because it was the wrong
color_. That's right; they literally starved to death rather than
eat grain that was colored differently from their accustomed diet.
You'd be astonished how conservative a society of backward peasants
can be.
I believe his email address is still valid, if anyone wants to ask him
about it.
(These are from my personal archives. Google Groups can't seem to
find them. It's been icnreasingly flakey over the past few years.
I miss DejaNews.)
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Spider Jerusalem
@reader1.panix.com:
> Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
>> On rec.arts.sf.written, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> There was a famine somewhere in Central Africa in the fifties, and
>>> since their staple was corn meal, the US shipped in tons and tons
>>> of corn meal. But American corn meal is yellow; the Africans were
>>> used to eating white corn. They wouldn't eat it: particularly, the
>>> children wouldn't eat it.
>
>> This strikes me as ULicious, with the theme of "them ignerent
>> savages".
Yes, it was from Steve "Murder" Sterling, the man who claims to have
killed someone (and claims thus loudly and often) yet won't say who or
where or why, and talks like a thug online (compleat with threats,
i'faith) and yet resembles nothing so much as a late-middle aged and
fattish bearded cushion....methinks he is like a weasel.
Keith F. Lynch
> Yes, it was from Steve "Murder" Sterling, the man who claims to have
> killed someone (and claims thus loudly and often) yet won't say who
> or where or why,
Would you?
> and talks like a thug online (compleat with threats, i'faith) and
> yet resembles nothing so much as a late-middle aged and fattish
> bearded cushion....methinks he is like a weasel.
When I last saw him, he didn't appear to be fat.
He's always interesting to read, though I profoundly disagree with
much of what he says. This week he posted:
You owe your country everything, including your life; this obligation
supercedes all others when they conflict, including personal
happiness or safety, family, religion and ethnicity. And if you put
any other call ahead of loyalty to your country, you're simply a bad
and disloyal citizen, end of story.
You country owes you very little. And your obligations to it are
not dependent on anything it does for you. The duty is absolute and
unconditional, it's not a bargain or a set of quid-pro-quos.
And yes, if that means killing your cousin, or your brother or sister,
or carpet-bombing the city your ancestors came from, you do it. If
you're actually an American, that is.
This from someone who has lived in several countries, and changed his
nationality at least once.
Spider Jerusalem
@reader1.panix.com:
> Spider Jerusalem <SpamMeHardA...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Yes, it was from Steve "Murder" Sterling, the man who claims to have
>> killed someone (and claims thus loudly and often) yet won't say who
>> or where or why,
>
> Would you?
If I'd done such a thing, I wouldn't boast about it all the time. Or, you
know, *ever*.
If I did boast in such a way (and under my own name, too), I would worry
that someone might read what I'd written, and turn out to be a cop.
> When I last saw him, he didn't appear to be fat.
I've only seen photos; possibly the camera added a few pounds. However, I
have read him talking as though he was a big shit-kicking thug type, and
the photos that I have seen do not give credence to the idea that he
would be particularly good at winning fights with anyone other than old-
age pensioners, or rather small children.
I found his textual puglistic pose to be rather unconvincing, once I'd
seen pictures of the man.
Charlie Stross says that the web brings out the worst in him, and that in
person he is actually much nicer. But I haven't had the pleasure.
And I think Charlie blocked him from posting on his blog.
> He's always interesting to read, though I profoundly disagree with
> much of what he says.
That sounds like my attitude to Mark Atwood (where did he go, by the way?
I kinda miss him!) but, I'm sorry to say, Mr. Sterling comes across in a
far less charming manner.
But I agree that one can usually think of something interesting by
considering what he's wrong about this time. I just take exception to the
continual hints he drops about having offed someone (like a proper
gansta, innit) and his talking about beating people up (I don't mean
wanting to, I mean actually doing it) where I truly doubt that he
possesses the capacity.
> This week he posted:
>
> You owe your country everything, including your life; this obligation
> supercedes all others when they conflict, including personal
> happiness or safety, family, religion and ethnicity. And if you put
> any other call ahead of loyalty to your country, you're simply a bad
> and disloyal citizen, end of story.
>
> You country owes you very little. And your obligations to it are
> not dependent on anything it does for you. The duty is absolute and
> unconditional, it's not a bargain or a set of quid-pro-quos.
>
> And yes, if that means killing your cousin, or your brother or
sister,
> or carpet-bombing the city your ancestors came from, you do it. If
> you're actually an American, that is.
>
> This from someone who has lived in several countries, and changed his
> nationality at least once.
Yes, he does have some....inconsistent ideas. Do you think he believes
what he writes on a continuing, everyday basis, or do you think he builds
up a head of steam and lets fly with what seems to him to be good at the
time and fits his mood, but would think differently upon calm reflection?
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
>> On rec.arts.sf.written, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> There was a famine somewhere in Central Africa in the fifties, and
>>> since their staple was corn meal, the US shipped in tons and tons
>>> of corn meal. But American corn meal is yellow; the Africans were
>>> used to eating white corn. They wouldn't eat it: particularly, the
>>> children wouldn't eat it.
>
>> This strikes me as ULicious, with the theme of "them ignerent
>> savages". Can't find this in searching for "famine" in snopes or
>> The Straight Dope, or for famine and corn in Google Groups here.
>> Anyone see this one before?
>
>Yes, in, of all places, rec.arts.sf.written:
>
I've read and heard of something somewhat similar several times:
US corn aid either includes, or is believed to include, some GM
content and the host governments won't allow it to be distributed
lest some of it escape into the wild and ruin their ability to
export to Europe..
That's not to say that the starving folks wouldn't have eaten it, but in
these cases they didn't get the chance.
Ted
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Keith F. Lynch
> Do you think he believes what he writes on a continuing, everyday
> basis, or do you think he builds up a head of steam and lets fly
> with what seems to him to be good at the time and fits his mood,
> but would think differently upon calm reflection?
I don't know. But it's true that he does often say some very scary
things. For instance the time someone asked him if there was a button
he could push that would kill every adult male Muslim, would he push
it, and he said yes. And this was *before* 9/11.
Fortunately, he's no longer a practicing criminal defense attorney.
He once said that every accused defendant is guilty. How'd you like
your lawyer to have that attitude if you're ever falsely accused of
a serious crime?
Spider Jerusalem
@reader1.panix.com:
> Spider Jerusalem <SpamMeHardA...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Do you think he believes what he writes on a continuing, everyday
>> basis, or do you think he builds up a head of steam and lets fly
>> with what seems to him to be good at the time and fits his mood,
>> but would think differently upon calm reflection?
>
> I don't know. But it's true that he does often say some very scary
> things. For instance the time someone asked him if there was a button
> he could push that would kill every adult male Muslim, would he push
> it, and he said yes. And this was *before* 9/11.
The mind boggles....I could see that after 9/11, if I'd lost people or
known people who had, I would be tempted to say intemperate things, and I
would certainly not wish Muslims who sympathised with the perpetrators
well (as I don't anyway; I wish them to wise up, like I do any such
supporters of that sort of behaviour) but I wouldn't hate all of them (I
know too many nice ones anyway, who wouldn't do anything like that; most
of them don't even go to the mosque, or agree with any of the more
horrible tenets of Islam any more than my Christian friends concur with
the awful bits of the Bible) and certainly wouldn't want to kill millions
of innocent people...
(The closest I've ever come to encountering terrorism...my best friend
was walking to Warren Street tube on 7/7, when she saw smoke coming out
of the tube station; five minutes earlier and she would have been on the
train that the suicide bomber was on.
The brother of someone she used to be friends with was grazed by falling
masonry on 9/11 in New York.
A friend of someone I was at college with was blown to pieces by an IRA
bomb whilst in the newsagent's at Canary Wharf.
The father of a friend of the family, a Jordanian in a position of some
influence, was killed; his family were told that the Israelis were
responsible. However the friend of our family decided that she didn't
want to become a symbol as the daughter of a martyr, turned her back on
the whole thing, and followed a career as a teacher in inner-city London,
where she has done a lot of good.
And my ex's dad, who's ex-Army, used to be one of the guys whose job it
was to defuse things that the IRA had planted.
Oh, and the abovementioned IRA once set off a bomb in a barracks in my
homeburb, but I don't think they killed anyone that time.
But that's it for me.
So...if I'd been affected personally by 9/11 -- as opposed to seeing it
happen on TV and wishing it hadn't happened -- I might be struggling with
myself to make sure I only wanted the people who were behind it smacked,
and not their co-religionists in general or at least all the ones silly
enough to cheer them on, whether or not they'd really think that if they
didn't have human "Us vs. Them" wiring getting in their eyes, but I would
recognise the difference between what I felt and what ought to happen.)
> Fortunately, he's no longer a practicing criminal defense attorney.
> He once said that every accused defendant is guilty. How'd you like
> your lawyer to have that attitude if you're ever falsely accused of
> a serious crime?
"All suspects are guilty, period....otherwise *chuckle* they wouldn't be
suspect, would they?"
....WTF?
I am starting to believe that Steve Sterling may be suffering from some
form of mental illness.
Mike Ash
"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> Fortunately, he's no longer a practicing criminal defense attorney.
> He once said that every accused defendant is guilty. How'd you like
> your lawyer to have that attitude if you're ever falsely accused of
> a serious crime?
I would not like it even if I were *correctly* accused of a serious
crime.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
Robert Carnegie
> In article <hdfmea$2d...@reader1.panix.com>,
> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
> >> On rec.arts.sf.written, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >>> There was a famine somewhere in Central Africa in the fifties, and
> >>> since their staple was corn meal, the US shipped in tons and tons
> >>> of corn meal. But American corn meal is yellow; the Africans were
> >>> used to eating white corn. They wouldn't eat it: particularly, the
> >>> children wouldn't eat it.
>
> >> This strikes me as ULicious, with the theme of "them ignerent
> >> savages". Can't find this in searching for "famine" in snopes or
> >> The Straight Dope, or for famine and corn in Google Groups here.
> >> Anyone see this one before?
>
> >Yes, in, of all places, rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> I've read and heard of something somewhat similar several times:
> US corn aid either includes, or is believed to include, some GM
> content and the host governments won't allow it to be distributed
> lest some of it escape into the wild and ruin their ability to
> export to Europe..
>
> That's not to say that the starving folks wouldn't have eaten it, but in
> these cases they didn't get the chance.
>
> Ted
Do U.S. aid recipients export corn to Europe? As far as I know, the
European Union - which I'm inside - has substantial agricultural
subsidy and isn't particularly enthusiastic about importing versus
consuming in-Union production.
Robert Carnegie
That's GOT to be parody. No one says that you kill your brother or
sister if "your country" demands it. The closest you get in the U.S.
would be a claim that President Obama wants you to kill your brother
and sister. Some people really don't like that guy and what he stands
for.
For the rest, I'm reminded of the short story reproduced at
<http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?
fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=85533416&blogId=139303290>
- one of very many about the little Scottish "puffer" boat the Vital
Spark and its crew. "The captain, Para Handy, was afraid of the
engineer because that functionary had once been on a ship that made a
voyage to Australia, and used to say he had killed a man in the Bush.
When he was not sober it was two men, and he would weep."
Johnny Tindalos
40a4-bedc-a...@v30g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
> For the rest, I'm reminded of the short story reproduced at
> <http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?
> fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=85533416&blogId=139303290>
> - one of very many about the little Scottish "puffer" boat the Vital
> Spark and its crew. "The captain, Para Handy, was afraid of the
> engineer because that functionary had once been on a ship that made a
> voyage to Australia, and used to say he had killed a man in the Bush.
> When he was not sober it was two men, and he would weep."
>
Para Handy.....oh, hence the starship Clara Pandy in my favourite work of
Alan Moore's, _Halo Jones_.
Talk about references you take a while to get...in this case, 25 years!
Warren Oates
"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> Fortunately, he's no longer a practicing criminal defense attorney.
> He once said that every accused defendant is guilty. How'd you like
> your lawyer to have that attitude if you're ever falsely accused of
> a serious crime?
I would have hopefully done my own due diligence thing and not hired him.
--
Suddenly he realized that he was alone
with a giant halfwit on a dark deserted street.
-- Chester Himes
Bill Snyder
It would be nice to believe it's parody, but if so, it's *very*
impressively deadpan, and has been carried on consistently over a
span of years. I think Stirling is simply a statist to a degree
unimaginable to most of us, and entirely serious.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Indeed. I'm proud of my country in many ways, but my family and I come
first, before anything. Now, there are times when that means go out and
serve your country, but the service isn't to the country, which is a
legal fiction or a symbol.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Lee Ayrton
I have the variant: US school children refuse to eat white cheese because
it is the wrong color. I innocently vectored it here some years ago.
Sean O'Hara
<tednolan> declared:
> >
> I've read and heard of something somewhat similar several times:
> US corn aid either includes, or is believed to include, some GM
> content and the host governments won't allow it to be distributed
> lest some of it escape into the wild and ruin their ability to
> export to Europe..
>
Or Monsanto comes in and says, "You're using our GM seeds. You have
to pay us."
--
Sean O'Hara <http://www.diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com>
New audio book: As Long as You Wish by John O'Keefe
<http://librivox.org/short-science-fiction-collection-010/>
danny burstein
>Or Monsanto comes in and says, "You're using our GM seeds. You have
>to pay us."
Or... Inigo Montoya comes in and says.....
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Dorothy J Heydt
ITYM "what they think he stands for."
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
> Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote in news:9488b69f-4da3-
> 40a4-bedc-a6fd2805d...@v30g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
Hmm... possibly. Only, it's mostly Scottish. Well, Alan Grant and
other _2000 AD_ personnel are Scottish.
I'm not sure if I've got this right, but Para Handy's real name is
Peter Macfarlane, and his everyday name means "Peter, son of Sandy
(Alexander)", I think. I wonder if it's significant that that's how
they manage names in Iceland; I think you wouldn't want to take the
"Vital Spark" to Iceland. I think I'd be uneasy going past Dumbarton.
art...@yahoo.com
> Tim McDaniel <t...@panix.com> wrote:
> > On rec.arts.sf.written, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> There was a famine somewhere in Central Africa in the fifties, and
> >> since their staple was corn meal, the US shipped in tons and tons
> >> of corn meal. But American corn meal is yellow; the Africans were
> >> used to eating white corn. They wouldn't eat it: particularly, the
> >> children wouldn't eat it.
> > This strikes me as ULicious, with the theme of "them ignerent
> > savages". Can't find this in searching for "famine" in snopes or
> > The Straight Dope, or for famine and corn in Google Groups here.
> > Anyone see this one before?
(snip)
> Many people rejected the American maize, _because it was the wrong
> color_. That's right; they literally starved to death rather than
> eat grain that was colored differently from their accustomed diet.
>
> You'd be astonished how conservative a society of backward peasants
> can be.
"No, No, it's don't eat the yellow snow, not don't eat the yellow
corn"
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
> He's always interesting to read, though I profoundly disagree with
> much of what he says. This week he posted:
>
> You owe your country everything, including your life; this obligation
> supercedes all others when they conflict, including personal
> happiness or safety, family, religion and ethnicity. And if you put
> any other call ahead of loyalty to your country, you're simply a bad
> and disloyal citizen, end of story.
>
> You country owes you very little. And your obligations to it are
> not dependent on anything it does for you. The duty is absolute and
> unconditional, it's not a bargain or a set of quid-pro-quos.
>
> And yes, if that means killing your cousin, or your brother or sister,
> or carpet-bombing the city your ancestors came from, you do it. If
> you're actually an American, that is.
Maybe that's who he killed? And this is the rationalisation?
Not his ancestors or the folks back in Stirling, Scotland, I mean,
but... maybe a hideous family accident. Maybe.
Dorothy J Heydt
Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>
>I've read and heard of something somewhat similar several times:
>US corn aid either includes, or is believed to include, some GM
>content and the host governments won't allow it to be distributed
>lest some of it escape into the wild and ruin their ability to
>export to Europe..
Well, we're talking (are we not?) about something that happened
in the sixties. I am fairly sure that there was no GM going on
in commercial production back then. And that it was the hungry
people, not the government, who rejected the yellow cornmeal
after it was already in their country.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
Hatunen
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <7m1e40F...@mid.individual.net>,
>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>>
>>I've read and heard of something somewhat similar several times:
>>US corn aid either includes, or is believed to include, some GM
>>content and the host governments won't allow it to be distributed
>>lest some of it escape into the wild and ruin their ability to
>>export to Europe..
>
>Well, we're talking (are we not?) about something that happened
>in the sixties. I am fairly sure that there was no GM going on
>in commercial production back then. And that it was the hungry
>people, not the government, who rejected the yellow cornmeal
>after it was already in their country.
Of course, all maize is genetically modified; the only member of
the family that isn't is teosinte.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Dorothy J Heydt
Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:54:15 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>In article <7m1e40F...@mid.individual.net>,
>>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>>>
>>>I've read and heard of something somewhat similar several times:
>>>US corn aid either includes, or is believed to include, some GM
>>>content and the host governments won't allow it to be distributed
>>>lest some of it escape into the wild and ruin their ability to
>>>export to Europe..
>>
>>Well, we're talking (are we not?) about something that happened
>>in the sixties. I am fairly sure that there was no GM going on
>>in commercial production back then. And that it was the hungry
>>people, not the government, who rejected the yellow cornmeal
>>after it was already in their country.
>
>Of course, all maize is genetically modified; the only member of
>the family that isn't is teosinte.
Yeah, but that was long ago and in a different country, and
besides, the wench is dead.
The kind of people who get paranoid about GM crops are making a
distinction between crops that were modified by cross-breeding
and artificial selection over the centuries, and those whose
genomes were tweaked in the laboratory. The one is Natural, the
other is Artificial and dangerous and probably radioactive and
will give you cancer and your kids autism.
Reminds me of a lady who told me to take some herbal potion or
other when I was having trouble sleeping. "It's all natural,
there are no chemicals in it!"
Besides, I get the impression that GM seeds are first-generation
hybrids that don't breed true in subsequent generations, so you
have to buy more of them every year. It's kind of like banning
mules from being imported into your country because you're afraid
they'll go wild, breed like bunnies, and overrun the place.
Mike Schilling
>
> It would be nice to believe it's parody, but if so, it's *very*
> impressively deadpan, and has been carried on consistently over a
> span of years. I think Stirling is simply a statist to a degree
> unimaginable to most of us, and entirely serious.
Or maybe Stirling doesn't get along with his relatives and he's looking for
an excuse.
R H Draney
>
>Reminds me of a lady who told me to take some herbal potion or
>other when I was having trouble sleeping. "It's all natural,
>there are no chemicals in it!"
The usual response to this argument is to feign a flash of realization and add
"oh, like hemlock!"...r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
BillGill
> I have the variant: US school children refuse to eat white cheese because
> it is the wrong color. I innocently vectored it here some years ago.
>
>
Well now, it isn't quite that bad, but I frequently buy cheese in a 2 lb
block at the store. They have the same brand in several variations.
One variation is that some of the sharp cheddar is white, and some of it
is yellow. I always buy the yellow, because the white is the wrong
color. If I went in and they only had the white I would buy it, but
I prefer the right color. Of course I suspect that the major difference
between the 2 is that the yellow has dye in it.
Bill
Taemon
> Dorothy J Heydt filted:
>> Reminds me of a lady who told me to take some herbal potion or
>> other when I was having trouble sleeping. "It's all natural,
>> there are no chemicals in it!"
> The usual response to this argument is to feign a flash of
> realization and add "oh, like hemlock!"...r
Tobacco. It's pure nature, you know.
T.
Tim McDaniel
>US corn aid either includes, or is believed to include, some GM
>content and the host governments won't allow it to be distributed
>lest some of it escape into the wild and ruin their ability to
>export to Europe..
Not necessarily, just banning it because it's GM.
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2412603.stm>, 6 November, 2002:
The Zambian Government has summoned aid officials working in a
refugee camp to ask them why they have been distributing
genetically modified (GM) maize, despite a government ban.
A senior government official held what is described as a "furious
meeting" with aid agency staff at the Makeba refugee camp in
North-Western province. ...
The Zambian Government decided last week to reject donations of GM
food for nearly three million of its people hit by drought and
famine.
The decision was made on the basis of a scientific report on the
implications of using GM food on the health and economic welfare
of the country.
[Picture caption: President Mwanawasa says GM food is "poison"]
The report was drawn up after Zambian officials visited the United
States, South Africa, Britain and Belgium.
It warned that the safety of GM foods was not conclusive.
As a result it recommended that Zambia turn down the donation of
US grain, which contains GM seed.
But now that the report has become public, questions have been
raised about the basis of its conclusions. ...
<http://www.un.org/ecosocdev/geninfo/afrec/vol16no4/164food2.htm>
lists other concerns of Zambians.
<http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/the-fight-over-the-future-of-food/article1357889/>
says, briefly,
Yet, even in Africa, there is suspicion of GM technology. Many
countries there, such as Uganda, Zambia and Tanzania, do not allow
GM seeds.
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Dorothy J Heydt
R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt filted:
>>
>>Reminds me of a lady who told me to take some herbal potion or
>>other when I was having trouble sleeping. "It's all natural,
>>there are no chemicals in it!"
>
>The usual response to this argument is to feign a flash of realization and add
>"oh, like hemlock!"...
>
with-it that she would not recognize the reference.
Chris Thompson
Actually cultivated tobacco, N. tabacum, is a hybrid of other
Nicotiania species, and probably the result of human intervention.
Unlike the ancestral species, it is not found growing wild.
--
Chris Thompson
Email: cet1 [at] cam.ac.uk
R H Draney
>
>In article <hdhmp...@drn.newsguy.com>,
>R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>Dorothy J Heydt filted:
>>>
>>>Reminds me of a lady who told me to take some herbal potion or
>>>other when I was having trouble sleeping. "It's all natural,
>>>there are no chemicals in it!"
>>
>>The usual response to this argument is to feign a flash of realization and add
>>"oh, like hemlock!"...
>>
>Heh. This lady, as I recall her, was so late-twentieth-century
>with-it that she would not recognize the reference.
So, the type who would be swayed by a jar of peanut butter touting "ZERO
CHOLESTEROL!!!"?...
R H "never yet saw a peanut with a liver" Draney
R H Draney
The magic word you're looking for is "annatto", a plant-based coloring agent
whose *only* practical use is to make cheese fluorescent orange...(for foods
where you actually want something done to the flavor as well, you need turmeric
or even saffron)....
Now, about those pink pistachio shells....r
Ray
> Well now, it isn't quite that bad, but I frequently buy cheese in
> a 2 lb block at the store. They have the same brand in several
> variations. One variation is that some of the sharp cheddar is
> white, and some of it is yellow. I always buy the yellow, because
> the white is the wrong color. If I went in and they only had the
> white I would buy it, but I prefer the right color. Of course I
> suspect that the major difference between the 2 is that the yellow
> has dye in it.
Someone in a cheese store once told me the only difference between
white and yellow cheddar is food coloring. I prefer that store's white
because it's aged a couple years longer than the yellow.
--
Ray
(remove the Xs to reply)
James
> BillGill filted:
>
>
>
> >Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
> >> I have the variant: US school children refuse to eat white cheese because
> >> it is the wrong color. I innocently vectored it here some years ago.
>
> >Well now, it isn't quite that bad, but I frequently buy cheese in a 2 lb
> >block at the store. They have the same brand in several variations.
> >One variation is that some of the sharp cheddar is white, and some of it
> >is yellow. I always buy the yellow, because the white is the wrong
> >color. If I went in and they only had the white I would buy it, but
> >I prefer the right color. Of course I suspect that the major difference
> >between the 2 is that the yellow has dye in it.
>
> The magic word you're looking for is "annatto", a plant-based coloring agent
> whose *only* practical use is to make cheese fluorescent orange...(for foods
> where you actually want something done to the flavor as well, you need turmeric
> or even saffron)....
>
> Now, about those pink pistachio shells....r
Interesting reversal of my experience.
My father grew up on a dairy farm, which for decades supplied a nearby
cheese factory(Ontario, Canada) which specializes in Cheddar.
Back in the 60s and 70s, only the mild and medium from that factory
were coloured orange. All the "good stuff" was white. We lived some
distance away, and many of our family friends would ask us to procure
some of it from the factory for them. So we became used to white
=premium old cheddar, when divying out the orders, we just looked at
the colour for those who had ordered old. Today I do notice that many
of the premium old cheddars in Canadian up scale supermarkets are
exclusively white, while the big producers vary, some orange some
white, for old cheese.
James"old white guy"Linn
Dorothy J Heydt
R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt filted:
>>
>>In article <hdhmp...@drn.newsguy.com>,
>>R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>Dorothy J Heydt filted:
>>>>
>>>>Reminds me of a lady who told me to take some herbal potion or
>>>>other when I was having trouble sleeping. "It's all natural,
>>>>there are no chemicals in it!"
>>>
>>>The usual response to this argument is to feign a flash of realization and add
>>>"oh, like hemlock!"...
>>>
>>Heh. This lady, as I recall her, was so late-twentieth-century
>>with-it that she would not recognize the reference.
>
>So, the type who would be swayed by a jar of peanut butter touting "ZERO
>CHOLESTEROL!!!"?...
Yes, probably.
Although my husband has just told me that the *original* peanut butter
formulations were blended with lard.
John
"Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
news:Kt0E7...@kithrup.com...
Hey, it happenned to those dinosaurs in that documentary I once watched.
Juho Julkunen
(jo...@junk.com) says...
> > Besides, I get the impression that GM seeds are first-generation
> > hybrids that don't breed true in subsequent generations, so you
> > have to buy more of them every year. It's kind of like banning
> > mules from being imported into your country because you're afraid
> > they'll go wild, breed like bunnies, and overrun the place.
> >
>
> Hey, it happenned to those dinosaurs in that documentary I once watched.
I think I might have seen that, but I though it was a sysadmin training
video. ISTR There was also a rudimentary and rather fanciful plot to
tie together the illustrative counterexamples.
--
Juho Julkunen
David Scheidt
:In article <hdhtq...@drn.newsguy.com>,
:R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
:>Dorothy J Heydt filted:
:>>
:>>In article <hdhmp...@drn.newsguy.com>,
:>>R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
:>>>Dorothy J Heydt filted:
:>>>>
:>>>>Reminds me of a lady who told me to take some herbal potion or
:>>>>other when I was having trouble sleeping. "It's all natural,
:>>>>there are no chemicals in it!"
:>>>
:>>>The usual response to this argument is to feign a flash of realization and add
:>>>"oh, like hemlock!"...
:>>>
:>>Heh. This lady, as I recall her, was so late-twentieth-century
:>>with-it that she would not recognize the reference.
:>
:>So, the type who would be swayed by a jar of peanut butter touting "ZERO
:>CHOLESTEROL!!!"?...
:Yes, probably.
:Although my husband has just told me that the *original* peanut butter
:formulations were blended with lard.
I can't imagine why. Peanuts have morethan enough oil in them.
--
sig 95
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
For some, there is no such thing as more than enough fat.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Keith F. Lynch
They don't seem to be around anymore. Which is good, since I didn't
like the way the color came off on my hands. I didn't really start
eating pistachios until they ceased being dyed.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Keith F. Lynch
> Tobacco. It's pure nature, you know.
A lot of smokers do believe that it's only because of artificial
additives that cigarettes are harmful, and that natural cigarettes
are good for you. Needless to say, there are several brands of all-
natural or organic cigarettes peddled to these fools.
Keith F. Lynch
>> He once said that every accused defendant is guilty. How'd you
>> like your lawyer to have that attitude if you're ever falsely
>> accused of
> I would have hopefully done my own due diligence thing and not
> hired him.
Not easy to do if you're in jail unable to post bond.
Keith F. Lynch
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Fortunately, he's no longer a practicing criminal defense attorney.
>> He once said that every accused defendant is guilty. How'd you
>> like your lawyer to have that attitude if you're ever falsely
> I would not like it even if I were *correctly* accused of a serious
> crime.
No, if you're guilty it's best if your attorney knows that. But if
you're *not* guilty, it's best if your attorney knows *that*.
Hatunen
<k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> Now, about those pink pistachio shells....r
>
>They don't seem to be around anymore. Which is good, since I didn't
>like the way the color came off on my hands. I didn't really start
>eating pistachios until they ceased being dyed.
http://homecooking.about.com/od/cookingfaqs/f/faqredpistachio.htm
Dorothy J Heydt
I already posted the link to "This Is Why You're Fat," didn't I?
Dorothy J Heydt
Indeed it does. I just asked if he knew why they blended in
lard, and he said he had no idea.
Dorothy J Heydt
Sure that was a documentary and not _Jurassic Park_?
Dorothy J Heydt
I have an essay somewhere saved to disk (but I can't remember the
filename, dammit) which treats _Jurassic Park_ as entirely an
object lesson on how not to run an IT shop. If your programmer
is going to pieces before your eyes, fire him and/or send him to
rehab. And in the first place, don't have just one person who
understands all the code. Then, don't have your electronically-
locked doors set to go OPEN when the power fails. And and and...
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
> Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com> wrote:
> > "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> >> Fortunately, he's no longer a practicing criminal defense attorney.
> >> He once said that every accused defendant is guilty. How'd you
> >> like your lawyer to have that attitude if you're ever falsely
> >> accused of a serious crime?
>
> > I would not like it even if I were *correctly* accused of a serious
> > crime.
>
> No, if you're guilty it's best if your attorney knows that. But if
> you're *not* guilty, it's best if your attorney knows *that*.
Hmm. I think in England defence lawyers who are convinced that the
defendant is guilty aren't allowed to argue that he isn't. Of course
there are some other things they can do that are allowed, such as
picking at technicalities.
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
Of course with creative use of GM technique they could be wiped out
even faster than with AIDS. Show everyone else what happens to people
who get friendly with China instead of the US.
Wayne Throop
:: butter formulations were blended with lard.
: I can't imagine why. Peanuts have morethan enough oil in them.
Indeed. When we made natural peanut butter in my yoot, the ingredients
were.... peanuts. Of course, that tasted rather flat, so we often added
a small amount of salt. But sometimes not even that, just bare nekkid peanuts.
And anyways, if we didn't make it at home, the local GNC outlet
at the mall made it on-premesis as you watched. So you could see
they didn't sneak anything into it, I suppose.
http://koeze.com/images/cream-nut-natural-peanut-butter-jar2.jpg
"Ingredients: virginia peants & sea salt"
I'm not sure why that wouldn't count as the "original" receipe.
Would mixing in lard make the oil have less tendency to separate?
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Don Freeman
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
> In article <0ikof55dfrmrka08p...@4ax.com>,
> Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
> >On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:54:15 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> >
> >>In article <7m1e40F...@mid.individual.net>,
> >>Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>I've read and heard of something somewhat similar several times:
> >>>US corn aid either includes, or is believed to include, some GM
> >>>content and the host governments won't allow it to be distributed
> >>>lest some of it escape into the wild and ruin their ability to
> >>>export to Europe..
> >>
> >>in the sixties. I am fairly sure that there was no GM going on
> >>in commercial production back then. And that it was the hungry
> >>people, not the government, who rejected the yellow cornmeal
> >>after it was already in their country.
> >
> >Of course, all maize is genetically modified; the only member of
> >the family that isn't is teosinte.
>
> Yeah, but that was long ago and in a different country, and
> besides, the wench is dead.
>
> The kind of people who get paranoid about GM crops are making a
> distinction between crops that were modified by cross-breeding
> and artificial selection over the centuries, and those whose
> genomes were tweaked in the laboratory. The one is Natural, the
> other is Artificial and dangerous and probably radioactive and
> will give you cancer and your kids autism.
>
> Reminds me of a lady who told me to take some herbal potion or
> other when I was having trouble sleeping. "It's all natural,
> there are no chemicals in it!"
>
> hybrids that don't breed true in subsequent generations, so you
> have to buy more of them every year. It's kind of like banning
> mules from being imported into your country because you're afraid
> they'll go wild, breed like bunnies, and overrun the place.
I don't think that's how GM works. On the contrary, there are reports
of GM herbicide resistance genes from crops - so that you can spray
right on the crop to kill weeds - quickly showing up in the weeds,
which are pretty good at doing that sort of thing.
Don Aitken
The English rule, which I think practically all the rest of the
common-law world follows, places restrictions on the lawyer who
*knows* that the client is guilty (usually because the client told
them so). A lawyer in this position may not put the client in the
witness box to deny the offence, or cross-examine witnesses on the
basis that he did not commit it. He is also under an obligation to
explain these rules clearly to the client, and to withdraw from the
case unless the client explicitly requests him to continue on that
basis.
OTOH, absolutely nothing follows from the fact that the lawyer
*thinks* the client is guilty, or even "is convinced" of that; the
jury are the only people whose opinion counts.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Bill Snyder
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <MPG.2566c2066...@news.kolumbus.fi>,
>Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>In article <hdi39n$6et$1...@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>, John
>>(jo...@junk.com) says...
>>>
>>> "Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
>>
>>> > Besides, I get the impression that GM seeds are first-generation
>>> > hybrids that don't breed true in subsequent generations, so you
>>> > have to buy more of them every year. It's kind of like banning
>>> > mules from being imported into your country because you're afraid
>>> > they'll go wild, breed like bunnies, and overrun the place.
>>> >
>>>
>>> Hey, it happenned to those dinosaurs in that documentary I once watched.
>>
>>I think I might have seen that, but I though it was a sysadmin training
>>video. ISTR There was also a rudimentary and rather fanciful plot to
>>tie together the illustrative counterexamples.
>
>I have an essay somewhere saved to disk (but I can't remember the
>filename, dammit) which treats _Jurassic Park_ as entirely an
>object lesson on how not to run an IT shop. If your programmer
>is going to pieces before your eyes, fire him and/or send him to
>rehab. And in the first place, don't have just one person who
>understands all the code. Then, don't have your electronically-
>locked doors set to go OPEN when the power fails. And and and...
Ah, so if a short-circuit in the junction box starts a fire,
everyone will fry?
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Keith F. Lynch
> Keith F. Lynch wrote:
>> you're *not* guilty, it's best if your attorney knows *that*.
> Hmm. I think in England defence lawyers who are convinced that
> the defendant is guilty aren't allowed to argue that he isn't.
Sure. But they pretty much never do that in any case. If only
because if they had a reputation for saying that when they believed
their client to be innocent, their not saying it would be tantamount
to an admission that they believe their client to be guilty.
Also, a lawyer isn't supposed to put a client on the witness stand if
he believes the client will lie under oath. He is allowed to remain
silent and let a lying client testify in a narrative form. But too
many jurors know that means the lawyer thinks his client is lying, so
there's little point.
> Of course there are some other things they can do that are allowed,
> such as picking at technicalities.
Not just technicalities. He can argue that there isn't sufficient
evidence. He can cross-examine prosecution witnesses even if he knows
they are telling the truth. (A "technicality" is something like a
typo on the search warrant, or a failure to give a Miranda warning.
It's something that has no real bearing on guilt or innocence.)
I think all this is the same in the US and Britain. But I am not
a lawyer.
Lon
> On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:20:05 +0000, Tim McDaniel wrote:
>
>> On rec.arts.sf.written, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> There was a famine somewhere in Central Africa in the
>>> fifties, and since their staple was corn meal, the US shipped in
>>> tons and tons of corn meal. But American corn meal is yellow;
>>> the Africans were used to eating white corn. They wouldn't eat
>>> it: particularly, the children wouldn't eat it.
>> This strikes me as ULicious, with the theme of "them ignerent
>> savages". Can't find this in searching for "famine" in snopes or The
>> Straight Dope, or for famine and corn in Google Groups here. Anyone
>> see this one before?
>
> I have the variant: US school children refuse to eat white cheese because
> it is the wrong color. I innocently vectored it here some years ago.
>
>
dairy lobbies, who used to prevent the sale of yellow margarine in the
states where they held much power.
Of course, it *would* be a bit more difficult to mix in that little
capsule of dye for a hunk of cheese.
Mike Schilling
> I have an essay somewhere saved to disk (but I can't remember the
> filename, dammit) which treats _Jurassic Park_ as entirely an
> object lesson on how not to run an IT shop. If your programmer
> is going to pieces before your eyes, fire him and/or send him to
> rehab.
Wrong lesson entirely. What JP shows is that if your programmer seems
unhappy, you need to ply him with food, drink, cash, and hot babes until
he's content again.
Bill Snyder
This is just a wild guess, you understand, but is it possible you
do something software-related?
BillGill
> Wonder if this is a side vector from propaganda products of the USofA
> dairy lobbies, who used to prevent the sale of yellow margarine in the
> states where they held much power.
>
> Of course, it *would* be a bit more difficult to mix in that little
> capsule of dye for a hunk of cheese.
>
I remember that. When they started selling the margarine in a heavy
plastic bag with the capsule stuck on the inside of the bag it was
great. We would sit around kneading the bag of margarine until it
got to be evenly colored passing it from one to another as we wore out.
Bill
BillGill
> BillGill <bill...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> Well now, it isn't quite that bad, but I frequently buy cheese in
>> a 2 lb block at the store. They have the same brand in several
>> variations. One variation is that some of the sharp cheddar is
>> white, and some of it is yellow. I always buy the yellow, because
>> the white is the wrong color. If I went in and they only had the
>> white I would buy it, but I prefer the right color. Of course I
>> suspect that the major difference between the 2 is that the yellow
>> has dye in it.
>
> Someone in a cheese store once told me the only difference between
> white and yellow cheddar is food coloring. I prefer that store's white
> because it's aged a couple years longer than the yellow.
>
Maybe I will have to try the white, just to see if it makes much difference.
Bill
Dorothy J Heydt
It did mention that if your programmer needs money so badly he's
willing to betray you, you need to be paying him more. That
programmer, as you'll recall, had *plenty* of food and drink and
I'm not sure how interested he would've been in hot babes. He's
a programmer, after all. I've been married to a programmer for
nearly forty years and he's very affectionate ... once he's
finished whatever he's doing (currently unemployed so that means
leveling characters on LotRO).
Mike Schilling
Sorry, the steaks are just ready and Amber wants me to try her latest
rum-and-tequila conconction. Can I get back to you?.
R H Draney
>
>I have an essay somewhere saved to disk (but I can't remember the
>filename, dammit) which treats _Jurassic Park_ as entirely an
>object lesson on how not to run an IT shop. If your programmer
>is going to pieces before your eyes, fire him and/or send him to
>rehab. And in the first place, don't have just one person who
>understands all the code. Then, don't have your electronically-
>locked doors set to go OPEN when the power fails. And and and...
I've always felt that required reading for anyone trying to lead a group of
creative, talented, technical people is Lewis Carroll's "The Hunting of the
Snark"...no better example exists of a project staffed with the wrong people for
the job....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Mike Schilling
> I've always felt that required reading for anyone trying to lead a
> group of creative, talented, technical people is Lewis Carroll's
> "The
> Hunting of the Snark"...no better example exists of a project
> staffed
> with the wrong people for the job....r
I've certainly worked with managers who thought that if they said
something often enough it must be true.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <hdhmp...@drn.newsguy.com>,
>R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>Dorothy J Heydt filted:
>>>
>>>Reminds me of a lady who told me to take some herbal potion or
>>>other when I was having trouble sleeping. "It's all natural,
>>>there are no chemicals in it!"
>>
>>The usual response to this argument is to feign a flash of realization and add
>>"oh, like hemlock!"...
>>
>Heh. This lady, as I recall her, was so late-twentieth-century
>with-it that she would not recognize the reference.
Might she recognize the Grace Slick lyric, "Poison oak is a natural
plant, why don't you put some in your food"?
(From "Eat Starch Mom," one of Slick's snarkier lyrics.)
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
I'm selling my comic collection -- see http://www.watt-evans.com/comics.html
I'm serializing a novel at http://www.watt-evans.com/realmsoflight0.html
William December Starr
Don Aitken <don-a...@freeuk.com> said:
> The English rule, which I think practically all the rest of the
> common-law world follows, places restrictions on the lawyer who
> *knows* that the client is guilty (usually because the client told
> them so). A lawyer in this position may not put the client in the
> witness box to deny the offence, or cross-examine witnesses on the
> basis that he did not commit it.
I do not believe that the second part of that applies in the United
States. An attorney may not procure (I believe that's the technical
term used) perjured testimony, but beyond that I know of no bar
regarding the cross-examination of witnesses.
-- wds
William December Starr
Juho Julkunen <giao...@hotmail.com> said:
> John (jo...@junk.com) says...
>> "Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote
>>
>>> It's kind of like banning mules from being imported into your
>>> country because you're afraid they'll go wild, breed like
>>> bunnies, and overrun the place.
>>
>> Hey, it happenned to those dinosaurs in that documentary I once
>> watched.
>
> I think I might have seen that, but I though it was a sysadmin
> training video. ISTR There was also a rudimentary and rather
> fanciful plot to tie together the illustrative counterexamples.
I thought it was a cutting-edge (for 1993) special effects demo reel,
with a rudimentary and rather fanciful plot tying the "Oooh!" shots
together.
-- wds
Mike Ash
"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com> wrote:
> > "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> >> Fortunately, he's no longer a practicing criminal defense attorney.
> >> He once said that every accused defendant is guilty. How'd you
> >> like your lawyer to have that attitude if you're ever falsely
> >> accused of a serious crime?
>
> > I would not like it even if I were *correctly* accused of a serious
> > crime.
>
> No, if you're guilty it's best if your attorney knows that. But if
> you're *not* guilty, it's best if your attorney knows *that*.
I'm fine with my attorney knowing I'm guilty, but not fine with him
thinking that *every* accused defendant is guilty. Such a thing is
likely to be indicative of warped thinking in general.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
David Johnston
Starr) wrote:
I'm not sure what it would even mean to "cross-examine witnesses on
the basis he did not commit it."
Dorothy J Heydt
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:57:01 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>In article <hdhmp...@drn.newsguy.com>,
>>R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>Dorothy J Heydt filted:
>>>>
>>>>Reminds me of a lady who told me to take some herbal potion or
>>>>other when I was having trouble sleeping. "It's all natural,
>>>>there are no chemicals in it!"
>>>
>>>The usual response to this argument is to feign a flash of realization and add
>>>"oh, like hemlock!"...
>>>
>>Heh. This lady, as I recall her, was so late-twentieth-century
>>with-it that she would not recognize the reference.
>
>Might she recognize the Grace Slick lyric, "Poison oak is a natural
>plant, why don't you put some in your food"?
Uh, I don't know. Wish I'd heard of it before this very moment,
because I might have used it to good effect.
Come to that, when was that song written? The conversation to
which I referred took place some thirty-five years ago.
Dimensional Traveler
> On 13 Nov 2009 00:50:15 -0500, wds...@panix.com (William December
> Starr) wrote:
>
>> In article <u9bpf5dii83mgl8tm...@4ax.com>,
>> Don Aitken <don-a...@freeuk.com> said:
>>
>>> The English rule, which I think practically all the rest of the
>>> common-law world follows, places restrictions on the lawyer who
>>> *knows* that the client is guilty (usually because the client told
>>> them so). A lawyer in this position may not put the client in the
>>> witness box to deny the offence, or cross-examine witnesses on the
>>> basis that he did not commit it.
>> I do not believe that the second part of that applies in the United
>> States. An attorney may not procure (I believe that's the technical
>> term used) perjured testimony, but beyond that I know of no bar
>> regarding the cross-examination of witnesses.
>>
>
> the basis he did not commit it."
He can't try to change the witness' mind or make them say the defendant
is innocent?
--
7 Years - 2265 Experiments - 10 tons of explosives - 705 Myths
Myths - Will - Fall!
Dimensional Traveler
Got a cite for that? It seems much more likely to me that this would
simply be a plant equivalent of the evolution of antibiotic resistant
bacteria. The herbicide kills off the susceptible weeds, leaving only
the ones that were already resistant to reproduce.
Dimensional Traveler
Cheryl
>> Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com> wrote:
>>> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>>> Fortunately, he's no longer a practicing criminal defense attorney.
>>>> He once said that every accused defendant is guilty. How'd you
>>>> like your lawyer to have that attitude if you're ever falsely
>>>> accused of a serious crime?
>>> I would not like it even if I were *correctly* accused of a serious
>>> crime.
>> No, if you're guilty it's best if your attorney knows that. But if
>> you're *not* guilty, it's best if your attorney knows *that*.
>
> there are some other things they can do that are allowed, such as
> picking at technicalities.
From a study of Rumpole of the Bailey, I came away with the impression
that they can't argue he is innocent if they KNOW he is guilty. As long
as the client doesn't tell them 'yes, I did it, but you're going to get
me off anyway, aren't you?', they can continue to defend him under the
presumption of innocence, whatever internal suspicions or convictions
the lawyer personally may have about the matter. After all, the accused
has not yet been convicted in a court of law, and hasn't confessed.
I often wish some of our reporters and general public would follow this
example when someone's been accused of a particularly nasty or otherwise
newsworthy crime. They generally have the accused convicted before he's
made his first preliminary appearance before a judge.
--
Cheryl
Nick Spalding
on Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:49:37 -0800:
It's thirty-some years since I read it but ISTR that was Fred Brooks's
prescription in "The Mythical Man-Month". Get a small team of good
programmers and shut them away somewhere with whatever goodies they
asked for, as opposed to what he called The Mongolian Hordes approach.
--
Nick Spalding
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
> Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-orig...@moderators.isc.org wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> >>> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> >>>> Fortunately, he's no longer a practicing criminal defense attorney.
> >>>> He once said that every accused defendant is guilty. How'd you
> >>>> like your lawyer to have that attitude if you're ever falsely
> >>>> accused of a serious crime?
> >>> I would not like it even if I were *correctly* accused of a serious
> >>> crime.
> >> No, if you're guilty it's best if your attorney knows that. But if
> >> you're *not* guilty, it's best if your attorney knows *that*.
>
> > Hmm. I think in England defence lawyers who are convinced that the
> > defendant is guilty aren't allowed to argue that he isn't. Of course
> > there are some other things they can do that are allowed, such as
> > picking at technicalities.
>
> From a study of Rumpole of the Bailey, I came away with the impression
> that they can't argue he is innocent if they KNOW he is guilty. As long
> as the client doesn't tell them 'yes, I did it, but you're going to get
> me off anyway, aren't you?', they can continue to defend him under the
> presumption of innocence, whatever internal suspicions or convictions
> the lawyer personally may have about the matter. After all, the accused
> has not yet been convicted in a court of law, and hasn't confessed.
I think that's where I got this from, although there are other English
legal dramas. (Scottish is different, but maybe the same in this
respect.) I think specifically the defence lawyer can't have the
defendant known by them to be guilty and plead "not guilty", which is
fairly fundamental. "Guilty" speeds up proceedings considerably. But
Rumpole is just one writer's interpretation and some of it may be out
of date too.
Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-origins@moderators.isc.org
> Robert Carnegie: Fnord: cc talk-orig...@moderators.isc.org wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:54:15 GMT, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> >>> Heydt) wrote:
>
> >>>> In article <7m1e40F3duto...@mid.individual.net>,
No cite as such. I don't know how credible this is - the suggestion
that weeds are picking up GM pollen and picking up herbicide
resistance genes directly, making them "superweeds" - but
<http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=weeds+resistance+GM
+horizontal&meta=&aq=f&oq=> is a fruitful search on the topic, in lay
language.
Szymon Sokół
> Mike Schilling wrote:
>> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> I have an essay somewhere saved to disk (but I can't remember the
>>> filename, dammit) which treats _Jurassic Park_ as entirely an
>>> object lesson on how not to run an IT shop. If your programmer
>>> is going to pieces before your eyes, fire him and/or send him to
>>> rehab.
>>
>> Wrong lesson entirely. What JP shows is that if your programmer seems
>> unhappy, you need to ply him with food, drink, cash, and hot babes until
>> he's content again.
>>
> Or at least pay him enough to acquire those on his own.
"At least"? I would prefer to buy my own food and drink, otherwise I could
end up with spinach and Diet Coke. But I am not a programmer (well, unless
writing a script in Perl from time to time counts).
--
Szymon Sokół (SS316-RIPE) -- Network Manager B
Computer Center, AGH - University of Science and Technology, Cracow, Poland O
http://home.agh.edu.pl/szymon/ PGP key id: RSA: 0x2ABE016B, DSS: 0xF9289982 F
Free speech includes the right not to listen, if not interested -- Heinlein H
Warren Oates
wrote:
> I remember that. When they started selling the margarine in a heavy
> plastic bag with the capsule stuck on the inside of the bag it was
> great. We would sit around kneading the bag of margarine until it
> got to be evenly colored passing it from one to another as we wore out.
Did you know that they still had to sell margarine uncoloured in Quebec
until, like, now?
http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2008/07/08/qc-margarine0708.html
I recall throwing those bags around like footballs. These days I only
use butter.
--
Suddenly he realized that he was alone
with a giant halfwit on a dark deserted street.
-- Chester Himes
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> writes
>> I don't think that's how GM works. On the contrary, there are
>>reports
>> of GM herbicide resistance genes from crops - so that you can spray
>> right on the crop to kill weeds - quickly showing up in the weeds,
>> which are pretty good at doing that sort of thing.
>
>Got a cite for that? It seems much more likely to me that this would
>simply be a plant equivalent of the evolution of antibiotic resistant
>bacteria. The herbicide kills off the susceptible weeds, leaving only
>the ones that were already resistant to reproduce.
If you're growing glyphosate-resistant maize in Europe then you don't
have to worry about hybridisation with weeds, and the consequent
development of glyphosate-resistant weeds. On the other hand,
glyphosate-resistant canola is capable of interbreeding with a variety
of weedy crucifiers, so the transfer of glyphosate-resistance is a real
concern.
On the gripping hand, the problem in Canada with glyphosate-resistant
mallows is the result of a case of selection of pre-existing tolerance.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Kurt Busiek
> On 13 Nov 2009 00:50:15 -0500, wds...@panix.com (William December
> Starr) wrote:
>
>> In article <u9bpf5dii83mgl8tm...@4ax.com>,
>> Don Aitken <don-a...@freeuk.com> said:
>>
>>> The English rule, which I think practically all the rest of the
>>> common-law world follows, places restrictions on the lawyer who
>>> *knows* that the client is guilty (usually because the client told
>>> them so). A lawyer in this position may not put the client in the
>>> witness box to deny the offence, or cross-examine witnesses on the
>>> basis that he did not commit it.
>>
>> I do not believe that the second part of that applies in the United
>> States. An attorney may not procure (I believe that's the technical
>> term used) perjured testimony, but beyond that I know of no bar
>> regarding the cross-examination of witnesses.
>
> I'm not sure what it would even mean to "cross-examine witnesses on
> the basis he did not commit it."
A lawyer can't put up a witness he knows is going to lie, or ask
questions he knows will be answered with a lie. Or at least, so say TV
shows about lawyers, and we know they wouldn't get that wrong.
Wouldn't dream of being inaccurate!
Proving that a lawyer has done so is of course rather trickier.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com — for all your Busiek needs!
Charlton Wilbur
DJH> drink and I'm not sure how interested he would've been in hot
DJH> babes. He's a programmer, after all. I've been married to a
DJH> programmer for nearly forty years and he's very affectionate
DJH> ... once he's finished whatever he's doing (currently
DJH> unemployed so that means leveling characters on LotRO).
All the programmers I know are highly interested in hot babes (of the
appropriate gender and orientation, and with widely varying defintions
of "hot"). But there's a complex cost-benefit analysis that includes
the likeliness of acquiring such a hot babe, especially once you've
found one who shows a propensity to stick around.
My suspicion, also, is that Hal's definition of "hot" includes "has a
shapely mind."
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
cwi...@chromatico.net
Dave Hansen
> In article <hdi516$q6...@reader1.panix.com>,
> David Scheidt <dsche...@panix.com> wrote:
> >In alt.folklore.urban Dorothy J Heydt <djhe...@kithrup.com> wrote:
[...]
> >:Although my husband has just told me that the *original* peanut butter
> >:formulations were blended with lard.
>
> >I can't imagine why. Peanuts have morethan enough oil in them.
>
> Indeed it does. I just asked if he knew why they blended in
> lard, and he said he had no idea.
I wasn't aware this was done, but I can think of two reasons.
First, if peanut oil is enough more expensive than lard, you could
make a profit by extracting the oil and replacing it with the lard,
and selling it seperately.
Second, peanut oil is liquid at room temperature. Lard is not.
Therefore, peanut butter with the peanut oil replaced by lard will not
settle, and does not require stirring before use. As a bonus, you can
control the consistency (thickness and/or spreadability) of the peanut
butter by controlling the lard/peanut ratio.
Note that these days, most peanut butters have replaced the peanut
oil, not with lard, but with "hydrogenated vegetable oil" (i.e.
shortening) for much the same reasons.
Regards,
-=Dave
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <qbqpf5dkjvir1gkkh...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>>On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:57:01 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>Heydt) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <hdhmp...@drn.newsguy.com>,
>>>R H Draney <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>>Dorothy J Heydt filted:
>>>>>
>>>>>Reminds me of a lady who told me to take some herbal potion or
>>>>>other when I was having trouble sleeping. "It's all natural,
>>>>>there are no chemicals in it!"
>>>>
>>>>The usual response to this argument is to feign a flash of realization and add
>>>>"oh, like hemlock!"...
>>>>
>>>Heh. This lady, as I recall her, was so late-twentieth-century
>>>with-it that she would not recognize the reference.
>>
>>Might she recognize the Grace Slick lyric, "Poison oak is a natural
>>plant, why don't you put some in your food"?
>
>Uh, I don't know. Wish I'd heard of it before this very moment,
>because I might have used it to good effect.
>
>Come to that, when was that song written? The conversation to
>which I referred took place some thirty-five years ago.
The song's from 1972, so... thiry-seven years ago.
Don Freeman
Thomas Prufer
>Reminds me of a lady who told me to take some herbal potion or
>other when I was having trouble sleeping. "It's all natural,
>there are no chemicals in it!"
Beer? Preferably with lots of soothing hops.
Where is Dr. H when you need him?
Thomas Prufer
Dorothy J Heydt
Ah. So she might have known it. I, however, didn't. (This
should surprise nobody.)
Dorothy J Heydt
Well, yes. He says so frequently. Alas, even my mind is not as
shapely as it used to be, but he doesn't seem to mind. :)
William Hyde
orig...@moderators.isc.org <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> I think that's where I got this from, although there are other English
> legal dramas. (Scottish is different, but maybe the same in this
> respect.) I think specifically the defence lawyer can't have the
> defendant known by them to be guilty and plead "not guilty", which is
> fairly fundamental. "Guilty" speeds up proceedings considerably. But
> Rumpole is just one writer's interpretation and some of it may be out
> of date too.
One writer who was a practicing lawyer, though.
William Hyde
Default User
> Note that these days, most peanut butters have replaced the peanut
> oil, not with lard, but with "hydrogenated vegetable oil" (i.e.
> shortening) for much the same reasons.
They don't replace the peanut oil. They add a small amount of
hydrogenated oil to the processed peanuts to act as a stabilizer. That
was also the function of lard in days gone by.
Brian
--
Day 284 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project
Default User
> :: Although my husband has just told me that the original peanut
> :: butter formulations were blended with lard.
>
> : I can't imagine why. Peanuts have morethan enough oil in them.
>
> Indeed. When we made natural peanut butter in my yoot, the
> ingredients were.... peanuts. Of course, that tasted rather flat, so
> we often added a small amount of salt. But sometimes not even that,
> just bare nekkid peanuts. And anyways, if we didn't make it at home,
> the local GNC outlet at the mall made it on-premesis as you watched.
> So you could see they didn't sneak anything into it, I suppose.
Smuckers Natural is just peanuts and salt. You have to give it a stir
or three.
Don Aitken
That is one of the biggest differences between our systems. If a
reporter did that here, both they and their editor would find
themselves in front of the judge. Newspapers are quite frequently
fined, and editors occassionally imprisoned, for this. Freedom of
speech gives way to the prohibition of conduct calculated to interfere
with the proper conduct of a criminal trial. It is for that reason
that juries are not sequestered in this country; the press are not
allowed to publish anything they shouldn't see (until after the
verdict is returned, of course - then they can say what they like).
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Dorothy J Heydt
Or, store the jar (with its lid well-secured) upside down. You
still have to stir it some, but the oil is at the bottom and less
likely to splash out.