Light bulbs that never blow?
Abby Winters
I had a search of the site, and the net, and did not come up with
anything... maybe you guys can help.
I remember when I was a kid, my (cynic of a) mother used to say that
there are light globes (bulbs) that never blow, but they don't
manufacture them, cos if they did, everyone'd buy a few, and never need
to buy more.
Since then, I have heard it mentioned in passing a few times. Sounds
unlikely to me, but then so do many things that are true. Any ideas?
-abby
McCaffertA
<ab...@kew.hotkey.net.au> writes:
You can make lightbulbs with extremely long lives; they are just heavier,
less efficient, and more expensive. People generally won't buy them, so they
don't sell, so they are produced in lower numbers, so they are more expensive
to produce, so they cost more, so people don't buy them, &cetera, &cetera, ad
nauseam.
Anthony "Vicious helix" McCafferty
danny burstein
>>there are light globes (bulbs) that never blow, but they don't
>>manufacture them, cos if they did, everyone'd buy a few, and never need
>>to buy more.
>>
>>Since then, I have heard it mentioned in passing a few times. Sounds
>>unlikely to me, but then so do many things that are true. Any ideas?
> You can make lightbulbs with extremely long lives; they are just heavier,
>less efficient, and more expensive. People generally won't buy them, so they
>don't sell, so they are produced in lower numbers, so they are more expensive
>to produce, so they cost more, so people don't buy them, &cetera, &cetera, ad
>nauseam.
And they are, in fact, commonly used in areas where the failure of a lamp
(what people generally call a light bulb) would be quite annoying, risky,
and expensive to deal with.
For example, check out the specs for traffic lights.
danny 'choices make capitalism great, especially when imported from
communist countries' burstein
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
JamiJo
>>anything... maybe you guys can help.
>>
>>there are light globes (bulbs) that never blow, but they don't
>>manufacture them, cos if they did, everyone'd buy a few, and never need
>>to buy more.
>>
>>Since then, I have heard it mentioned in passing a few times. Sounds
>>unlikely to me, but then so do many things that are true. Any ideas?
>
> You can make lightbulbs with extremely long lives; they are just heavier,
>less efficient, and more expensive. People generally won't buy them, so they
>don't sell, so they are produced in lower numbers, so they are more expensive
>to produce, so they cost more, so people don't buy them, &cetera, &cetera, ad
>nauseam.
>
Well, I guess they do make them - But I was going to say that I knew of a
lightbulb in a camp ground that didn't need to be changed for 25 years because
it was left running all the time. This is what my father, the scientist, told
me at least! I don't know if it's really true. He just said that it's the
turning on and off process (heating and cooling) that causes a bulb to
eventually burn out. All that expanding and contracting plays havock on the
wires inside. So if you leave one running all the time like the one at the camp
ground (in the women's restroom - the men's needs to be replaced because of
young boys throwing rocks at it) then you almost never need to replace it.
~Jami JoAnne Russell~
http://users.50megs.com/gambitsgal/intro.html
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Portal/2450/jami1.html
http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=gambitsjami
McCaffertA
writes:
>> You can make lightbulbs with extremely long lives; they are just
>heavier,
>>less efficient, and more expensive. People generally won't buy them, so
>they
>>don't sell, so they are produced in lower numbers, so they are more
>expensive
>>to produce, so they cost more, so people don't buy them, &cetera, &cetera,
>ad
>>nauseam.
>
>And they are, in fact, commonly used in areas where the failure of a lamp
>(what people generally call a light bulb) would be quite annoying, risky,
>and expensive to deal with.
>
>For example, check out the specs for traffic lights.
Yupper. Also navigation aids, tunnels, open-bay warehouses, etc, etc, ad
nau..well, you get the idea. They are, however, almost unused in private
homes.
>
>danny 'choices make capitalism great, especially when imported from
>communist countries' burstein
This might be a very poor example to use; the current prefered solution is,
in most lay senses of the word, uneconomical.
McCaffertA
gambit...@aol.comNOWAY (JamiJo) writes:
>Well, I guess they do make them - But I was going to say that I knew of a
>lightbulb in a camp ground that didn't need to be changed for 25 years
>because
>it was left running all the time. This is what my father, the scientist, told
>me at least! I don't know if it's really true. He just said that it's the
>turning on and off process (heating and cooling) that causes a bulb to
>eventually burn out. All that expanding and contracting plays havock on the
>wires inside. So if you leave one running all the time like the one at the
>camp
>ground (in the women's restroom - the men's needs to be replaced because of
>young boys throwing rocks at it) then you almost never need to replace it.
The explanation given is true. You get more out of most incandescent bulbs
by running them continously . Not only do you have stresses on the filament
from heating-cooling, but cooling allows minute inward leaking in some bulbs.
25 years, on the other hand, seems a bit much, though.
Anthony "Why can't we all get a LED?" McCafferty
David Hatunen
JamiJo <gambit...@aol.comNOWAY> wrote:
>Well, I guess they do make them - But I was going to say that I
>knew of a lightbulb in a camp ground that didn't need to be
>changed for 25 years because it was left running all the time.
>This is what my father, the scientist, told me at least! I don't
>know if it's really true. He just said that it's the turning on
>and off process (heating and cooling) that causes a bulb to
>eventually burn out. All that expanding and contracting plays
>havock on the wires inside. So if you leave one running all the
>time like the one at the camp ground (in the women's restroom -
>the men's needs to be replaced because of young boys throwing
>rocks at it) then you almost never need to replace it.
It's inherent in the process of incandescense that the filament
slowly "boils off" material. So a lamp is not going ot last
forever. But there are many cases wehre lamps have been left on for
decades. The biggest problems are heat and shock.
Heat can be a problem in fixtures where the lamp cannot lose heat
adequately, overheating the lamp, wiht hastened failure.
Shock can come from the theremal shock of turning a lamp on and off.
It can also come from physcial vibration, especially in tightly
double coiled filament lamps wher adjacent loops can become welded
together, decreasing the filament resistance and raising its
temperature. You can do it yourself here by gently tapping the side
of a bulb that's turned on until it suddenly flares up
in brightness. It won't last very long after that, though.
You can make a lamp last a long time by lowering its temperature.
The easiest way to do this is to make a filament for a higher
voltage than the one to be used. Or you caan buy a lamp rated for a
voltage higher than the one in use; for instance, buy a lamp that
says "120V" on it and use it in a circuit running at 115V [1]. The
problem here is that you are lowering the brightness of the lamp in
the process, and making it more inefficient. The cost of electric
lighting is not the bulbs, but the electricity. For instance if you
have to use a 75 watt long lasting bulb to get the light you would
get from a regular 60 watt bulb, then you ar using 0.015 more
kilowatts; over the 2000 hour life of a normal bulb this is 30
extra kwh, which at $0.13/kwh is an additional cost of $3.90, far
more than the cost of buying several new normal lamps.
[1] A sure way to have short-lived lamps is to buy 110V lamps when
your house is at 115V. Most people don't know their actual house
voltage and aren't aware that lamps come in different voltage
ratings, shown on the top of the bulb.
--
********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@sonic.net) ***********
* Daly City California *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
Lon Stowell
Abby Winters <ab...@kew.hotkey.net.au> wrote:
>Hi guys
>
>I had a search of the site, and the net, and did not come up with
>anything... maybe you guys can help.
>
>I remember when I was a kid, my (cynic of a) mother used to say that
>there are light globes (bulbs) that never blow, but they don't
>manufacture them, cos if they did, everyone'd buy a few, and never need
>to buy more.
There are indeed light bulbs that never blow. They are available
in specialty light bulb shops only. The trick is to use a light
bulb so far under its rated voltage that it emits only a small
portion of the light it would if used at rated voltage. This
tactic is also used for so-called "long life" lightbulbs that
merely give fewer lumens per watt consumed...since they are being
operated at much lower efficiency. The better ones also have
far better filament mechanical bracing than run-of-the-mill
specials. OK, so it is impossible to actually make a light
bulb that never blows, but it is certainly possible to make
one that can last for well over 3/4 of a century. I happen
to have some Xmas lights made in the 20's that are still
in working order.
[Treading frightfully close to the BOP] The actual benefits
of using long-life bulbs are that you use MORE electricity
for the same amount of light....whether this benefit results
in lower overall energy consumption than that used to make
a light bulb is best left to other news groups.
And of course, there are light bulbs that do blow, but only
some of them swallow.
danny burstein
>> camp ground (in the women's restroom - the men's needs to be
>> replaced because of young boys throwing rocks at it) then you
>> almost never need to replace it.
> The explanation given is true. You get more out of most incandescent bulbs
>by running them continously . Not only do you have stresses on the filament
>from heating-cooling, but cooling allows minute inward leaking in some bulbs.
While we all believe this, and we've all seen lamps blow out when turned
on, the manufacturers keep claiming it's not true.
I'd love it if some consumer testing group (or other neutral party) would
take a dozen batches of ten lamps apiece and cycle the first every five
minutes, the second every fifteen, etc., and compare the actual lifespan
they get.
> 25 years, on the other hand, seems a bit much, though.
Well, this was a campground. So tehre's a good chance there was extended
wiring leading to a voltage drop. If you feed 90V into a 120V lamp, you'll
probably die before the lamp does.
>Anthony "Why can't we all get a LED?" McCafferty
Akshually, LEDs have recently started appearing in widespread usage in
traffic lights.
John Francis
danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>And they are, in fact, commonly used in areas where the failure of a lamp
>(what people generally call a light bulb) would be quite annoying, risky,
>and expensive to deal with.
>
>For example, check out the specs for traffic lights.
Seem to be talking about LEDs, nowadays (at least for the red ones).
David Tarkowski
>I remember when I was a kid, my (cynic of a) mother used to say that
>there are light globes (bulbs) that never blow, but they don't
>manufacture them, cos if they did, everyone'd buy a few, and never need
>to buy more.
There exists at least one light bulb that has been lit continuously for
<bignum> years. I want to say since Edison's time, but I don't have a cite so
I won't. I saw a news story on it a couple of years back, they had to move it
and all sorts of precautions were taken to make sure that it did not go out.
From the shots of it on the TV, I would say that it was well under forty
watts.
I can't say if there is a consipiracy against such light bulbs, but I do know
that light bulbs burn out faster when they are switched on and off a lot.
-Dave "would like to know how they got power for nine decades straight"
Tarkowski
--
"Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball" -SNL
danny burstein
>>And they are, in fact, commonly used in areas where the failure of a lamp
>>(what people generally call a light bulb) would be quite annoying, risky,
>>and expensive to deal with.
>>
>>For example, check out the specs for traffic lights.
>Seem to be talking about LEDs, nowadays (at least for the red ones).
Depends on teh specific situation, but we've certainly seen _some_
switchover to red and green LED units in the past couple of years.
The problems were:
a) traffic engineers are very, very, conservative about
switching to new techs. Has something to do with their
concern about discovering new and undocumented failure modes
b) by definition, something that's only been on the
market for only a few years doesn't have a track record..
c) depending on the fixture (luminaire) currently at the
intersection, replacing the lamp (the lightbulb) may range
from a simple screw in to some major rebuilding.
d) and the lumen intensity and dispersion pattern may or
may not be an issue...
To sum up, we _are_ seeing a gradual switchover to red (and, somewhat less
often, green LEDs) in traffic signals. Oh, also for the tail and brake
lights on trucks.
sidhe...@my-deja.com
<slrn8uegkt....@r93aag001692.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com>,
dtar...@rcn.com wrote:
> On 13 Oct 2000 11:09:14 -0500, Abby Winters <ab...@kew.hotkey.net.au>
wrote:
> >I remember when I was a kid, my (cynic of a) mother used to say that
> >there are light globes (bulbs) that never blow, but they don't
> >manufacture them, cos if they did, everyone'd buy a few, and never
need
> >to buy more.
>
> There exists at least one light bulb that has been lit continuously
for
> <bignum> years. I want to say since Edison's time, but I don't have a
cite so
> I won't. I saw a news story on it a couple of years back, they had to
move it
> and all sorts of precautions were taken to make sure that it did not
go out.
> From the shots of it on the TV, I would say that it was well under
forty
> watts.
>
Here's the cite: http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9703/25/longest.lasting.bulb/
If Abby wants to buy a superlonglasting bulb, they sell them through the
Vermont Country Store (http://www.vermontcountrystore.com). I had one
in my hallway that lasted 2 years.
Sidhedevil "Church of Watts Happening Now" the She-Devil
> I can't say if there is a consipiracy against such light bulbs, but I
do know
> that light bulbs burn out faster when they are switched on and off a
lot.
>
> -Dave "would like to know how they got power for nine decades
straight"
> Tarkowski
>
> --
> "Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball" -SNL
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
McCaffertA
writes:
>>Anthony "Why can't we all get a LED?" McCafferty
>
>Akshually, LEDs have recently started appearing in widespread usage in
>traffic lights.
Ummm, yeasssss. Strange coincidence that I bothered to mention it.
Anthony "also in truck directional signals and brake lights, marine
lighting..." McCafferty
Deborah Stevenson
On 13 Oct 2000, Lon Stowell wrote:
> [Treading frightfully close to the BOP] The actual benefits
> of using long-life bulbs are that you use MORE electricity
> for the same amount of light....whether this benefit results
> in lower overall energy consumption than that used to make
> a light bulb is best left to other news groups.
I don't think I'm running into the BOP by mentioning that the less
often I'm standing on tiptoe on a kitchen chair trying to juggle a heavy
light fixture and a fragile light bulb over my head, the happier I am.
I imagine that when I hit 80 I'll be willing to pay air-conditioner-level
bills to avoid lightbulb changing.
Deborah "the human factor" Stevenson
(stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
JamiJo
>
>Well, this was a campground. So tehre's a good chance there was extended
>wiring leading to a voltage drop. If you feed 90V into a 120V lamp, you'll
>probably die before the lamp does.
I agree that 25 years is an awful long time - but the campground is this little
secluded place in the High Seirras (yes, I know I can't spell) called Lundy
Lake. It's in a secluded canyon where one can't even pick up a tv signal with a
satilight dish and you can only get the radio if it's really cloudy above the
canyon. (I remember once as kids we picked up a station in Utah.) So they have
their own little generator but it's so weak you can't even run a hair dryer
without blowing it out.
David Nebenzahl
>
> >> 25 years, on the other hand, seems a bit much, though.
> >
> >Well, this was a campground. So tehre's a good chance there was extended
> >wiring leading to a voltage drop. If you feed 90V into a 120V lamp, you'll
> >probably die before the lamp does.
>
> I agree that 25 years is an awful long time - but the campground is this little
> secluded place in the High Seirras (yes, I know I can't spell) called Lundy
> Lake. It's in a secluded canyon where one can't even pick up a tv signal with a
> satilight dish and you can only get the radio if it's really cloudy above the
> canyon. (I remember once as kids we picked up a station in Utah.) So they have
> their own little generator but it's so weak you can't even run a hair dryer
> without blowing it out.
Eastern Sierra, right? Haven't been there, but have been to Little
Lakes, Long Lake, and a bunch of lakes further into the back country
(Drunken Sailor, etc.). No 'lektricity there, though.
By the way, the real error you made is that "Sierra" is singular.
"Sierras" don't exist, at least not in proper Spanish.
David Nebenzahl
[...]
> [1] A sure way to have short-lived lamps is to buy 110V lamps when
> your house is at 115V. Most people don't know their actual house
> voltage and aren't aware that lamps come in different voltage
> ratings, shown on the top of the bulb.
Yeees, but aren't those voltage ratings really just nominal (and
therefore pretty meaningless) ones? Like "your mileage may vary"? As I
understand it, AC line voltages are variously givan as 110/115/117/120
volts, with the /actual/ voltage in some range thereabouts (like between
110-120 volts).
But you're right: I don't know what my house's voltage is. I'd better
get back there quick today and stick my VOM probes in the socket.
David Hatunen
David Nebenzahl <n...@microtech.com> wrote:
>David Hatunen wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>> [1] A sure way to have short-lived lamps is to buy 110V lamps when
>> your house is at 115V. Most people don't know their actual house
>> voltage and aren't aware that lamps come in different voltage
>> ratings, shown on the top of the bulb.
>
>Yeees, but aren't those voltage ratings really just nominal (and
>therefore pretty meaningless) ones? Like "your mileage may vary"?
>As I understand it, AC line voltages are variously givan as
>110/115/117/120 volts, with the /actual/ voltage in some range
>thereabouts (like between 110-120 volts).
While the voltage ratings on the lamps themselves are nominal, they
are meaningful, too. You should use lamps rated for your own line
voltage. People who do the lamp maintenance at big buidldings and
factories pay attention to this stuff.
Your typical Target or WalMart isn't going to carry lamps with a
variety of ratings, of course. Places like GreyBar may have a
variety, though.
>But you're right: I don't know what my house's voltage is. I'd
>better get back there quick today and stick my VOM probes in the
>socket.
Calibration on a VOM is always a problem. Too bad there's not a
nice inexpensive standard AC source.
ctbishop
<n...@microtech.com> wrote:
>By the way, the real error you made is that "Sierra" is singular.
>"Sierras" don't exist, at least not in proper Spanish.
But they (Sierras) do exist in English[1] which was what Ms JJ was writing
in. IANAEP[2], but it seems when you bring a word into a language then
it's most logical to treat it not as if it is a foreign word but one
belonging to the language that imports it. The usual way to make plurals
in English is to add an ess to the end. "The Sierras parallel the coast of
California." is what I would write rather than use Sierra, though this
does sound a bit more poetic.
Charles, sitting at the descriptivist table at afubar, Bishop
[1] or American
[2] I Am Not an English[1] Pendant
David Scheidt
Hiring the neighbor kid to change your lightbulbs every six months would
probably be cheaper.
--
David Scheidt <dsch...@enteract.com>
Stop being Rambo, and start being Ghandi. -- Paul Tomblin
Dr H
On 13 Oct 2000, danny burstein wrote:
}In <20001013132216...@nso-cb.aol.com> mccaf...@aol.comment (McCaffertA) writes:
}>> camp ground (in the women's restroom - the men's needs to be
}>> replaced because of young boys throwing rocks at it) then you
}>> almost never need to replace it.
}
}> The explanation given is true. You get more out of most incandescent bulbs
}>by running them continously . Not only do you have stresses on the filament
}>from heating-cooling, but cooling allows minute inward leaking in some bulbs.
}
}While we all believe this, and we've all seen lamps blow out when turned
}on, the manufacturers keep claiming it's not true.
}
}I'd love it if some consumer testing group (or other neutral party) would
}take a dozen batches of ten lamps apiece and cycle the first every five
}minutes, the second every fifteen, etc., and compare the actual lifespan
}they get.
I don't know if the experiment has been done with lightbulbs (though
it's hard to imagine that it hasn't), but it certainly has been done
with vacuum tubes. Turning these on and off repeatedly both shortens
the filament life, and rapidly changes the electrical characteristics
of the tube.
There's good reason for this. The resistance of the filament
increases with temperature, limiting current flow. A cold filament
has a lower resistance, hence draws more current from a fixed
voltage source, and hence experiences greater thermal shock.
Worked in a lab for a while which used Grass polygraphs to record
neural impulses. Each of these had several amplifiers which used
12AX7 and 12AU7 tubes. Most of the units were left on 24/7, but
a few were routinely turned on and off several times a day. That
is, until we discovered that we were experiencing almost twice the
burnout rate, and four times the tube-rematching/amp calibration
requirements on the amps that were being switched on and off, as
compared to those that were left on.
Dr H
JTM
"David Hatunen" <hat...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote in message
news:aQHF5.3600$9p6.1...@typhoon.sonic.net...
> [1] A sure way to have short-lived lamps is to buy 110V lamps when
> your house is at 115V. Most people don't know their actual house
> voltage and aren't aware that lamps come in different voltage
> ratings, shown on the top of the bulb.
I have purchased 130v "long life" tungsten filament lamps which are intended
for difficult access applications, but I doubt that you will find any of the
other mentioned values.
Some years ago there was a disk shaped diode on the market which you could
insert under the lamp which would greatly increase the life of the bulb by
rectifying the AC into half wave. This would effectively reduce the voltage
of the lamp and thus would greatly reduce the light output.
There was another similar shaped device which would prevent the inrush
current by having initial high resistance and as the device warmed up the
resistance would decrease to near zero ohms. This would reduce the
incidences of burnout at power on. It had the advantage of not
significantly affecting the light output.
Regards,
John
sidhe...@my-deja.com
Abby Winters <ab...@kew.hotkey.net.au> wrote:
> Hi guys
>
> I had a search of the site, and the net, and did not come up with
> anything... maybe you guys can help.
>
> there are light globes (bulbs) that never blow, but they don't
> manufacture them, cos if they did, everyone'd buy a few, and never
need
> to buy more.
>
> unlikely to me, but then so do many things that are true. Any ideas?
>
This is the acknowledged champeen...
the snopes page (Abby, have you met snopes?):
http://www.snopes.com/spoons/noose/lightbul.htm
Johns Hopkins:
http://www.jhu.edu/~newslett/02-28-97/Science/Science_Briefs.html
and here's a nice CNN cite for the same one:
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9703/25/longest.lasting.bulb/
but here's another contender:
http://www.fortworth150.com/history/famous6.htm
Sidhedevil "switch-hitter" the She-Devil
David Hatunen
JTM <c...@j.com> wrote:
>
>"David Hatunen" <hat...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote in message
>news:aQHF5.3600$9p6.1...@typhoon.sonic.net...
>
>> [1] A sure way to have short-lived lamps is to buy 110V lamps
>> when your house is at 115V. Most people don't know their actual
>> house voltage and aren't aware that lamps come in different
>> voltage ratings, shown on the top of the bulb.
>
>I have purchased 130v "long life" tungsten filament lamps which
>are intended for difficult access applications, but I doubt that
>you will find any of the other mentioned values.
>
>Some years ago there was a disk shaped diode on the market which
>you could insert under the lamp which would greatly increase the
>life of the bulb by rectifying the AC into half wave. This would
>effectively reduce the voltage of the lamp and thus would greatly
>reduce the light output.
It could also play hell with your TV reception, as well as your
cordless phone. Unfiltered rectified AC genearates all kinds of
spurious spectra.
>There was another similar shaped device which would prevent the
>inrush current by having initial high resistance and as the device
>warmed up the resistance would decrease to near zero ohms. This
>would reduce the incidences of burnout at power on. It had the
>advantage of not significantly affecting the light output.
Sounds like some kind of NTC thermistor.
Mike
Abby Winters wrote in message
news:MPG.1451ebd84...@news-east.newscene.com...
<snip>
> I remember when I was a kid, my (cynic of a) mother used to say that
there are light globes (bulbs) that never blow, but they don't manufacture
them, cos if they did, everyone'd buy a few, and never need to buy more.
This sounds like it's related to post-WWII consumer myths like the tire that
never wears out.
Mike
John Francis
Deborah Stevenson <stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>I imagine that when I hit 80 I'll be willing to pay air-conditioner-level
>bills to avoid lightbulb changing.
Move to San Diego and you can have that experience today ...
Ob.TWIAVBP: Electricity rates in San Diego have increased rather
dramatically in recent years. This is because California has an
ever-increasing demand for electricity, but very little new power
generating capacity.
San Diego is merely the first part of the state to be exposed to
a free market for power. The reasons for this are manifold, and
explaining in much more detail would probably trigger violations
of the BOP.
David Nebenzahl
Well, good. Let me be the first to do so: it's because of that
article-of-faith of the free marketeers, AKA deregulation.
Now we up in the North (Bay Area) are waiting for the other shoe to drop
when PG&E[1] gets to raise THEIR rates in this wonderful new free
market--which, by the way, was sold to us as one in which our electric
rates would go DOWN.
Ah, that felt good. You should try it.
David Nebenzahl
Whoops: no job's done until the footnoting is complete:
[1] Pacific Gas & Electric, our counterpart to San Diego (G & E?);
perhaps best known as the real-life chromium-poisining bad guy in the
movie "Erin Brockovitch".
Deborah Stevenson
On 13 Oct 2000, David Scheidt wrote:
> Deborah Stevenson <stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> : I imagine that when I hit 80 I'll be willing to pay air-conditioner-level
> : bills to avoid lightbulb changing.
>
> Hiring the neighbor kid to change your lightbulbs every six months would
> probably be cheaper.
The neighbor kids are between sixty and seventy-five now. They'll be well
into their hundreds then, so I'm not holding out hope for assistance.
Deborah "did I mention it's quiet here?" Stevenson
(stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Abby Winters
> In article <MPG.1451ebd84...@news-east.newscene.com>,
> Abby Winters <ab...@kew.hotkey.net.au> wrote:
> > Hi guys
> > I had a search of the site, and the net, and did not come up with
> > anything... maybe you guys can help.
Hm, prolly cos I was searching for two words. Dman that fuzziness of
logic.
> > I remember when I was a kid, my (cynic of a) mother used to say that
> > there are light globes (bulbs) that never blow, but they don't
> > manufacture them, cos if they did, everyone'd buy a few, and never
> > need to buy more.
> This is the acknowledged champeen...
> the snopes page (Abby, have you met snopes?):
er, no. Where is he/she/they/it at? Thanks for the cites, and thanks to
everyone who contributed.
-abby
Mitcho
> And they are, in fact, commonly used in areas where the failure of a lamp
> (what people generally call a light bulb) would be quite annoying, risky,
> and expensive to deal with.
>
> For example, check out the specs for traffic lights.
About 13 years ago, Harry Newton, the rather eccentric head of Telecom
Publishing (a publisher of books and magazines in the
telecommunications field) gave away special high service life light
bulbs to advertisers as a promotion. I was one such advertiser. He
told a story of how he was talking to a city streetlight maintenence
guy who was changing a lightbulb and said the bulbs last something
like 15 years. Of course, they are much more expensive than what we
find at the grocery store, but it was a cute story and a nifty
promotion.
Mitcho
--
The Urban Redneck : red...@employees.org : Goat Hill, California
http://www.employees.org/~redneck
David Nebenzahl
> >
> >Eastern Sierra, right? Haven't been there, but have been to Little
> >Lakes, Long Lake, and a bunch of lakes further into the back country
> >(Drunken Sailor, etc.). No 'lektricity there, though.
> >
> >"Sierras" don't exist, at least not in proper Spanish.
>
> Lee Vining, California - which is near one of the entrances to Yosemite. It's
> also near the ghost town Bodie and the Nevada boarder - 55 miles straight out
> from the entrance to Lundy is Hawthorne, NV.
Ah, yes, Lee Vining: know it well. I can tell you this: don't ever have
the misfortune of breaking down anywhere withing towing distance of
there, as they'll rip you off badly.
Not all that far from Benton, which is hardly more than a crossroads,
where I had much better luck with auto repair.
And, of course, right next to that now-restored jewel of the Owens
Valley/Eastern Sierra, Mono Lake. (No thanks to the Los Angeles DWP[1]
there!)
I used to "commute" through there, over Hwy. 120 (before it closed in
winter) from the Bay Area regularly.
> And - well, that's what my parents always called it - the "High Sierras" -
Well, they were wrong, too.
Sorry 'bout that.
> ~Jami JoAnne Russell~
> http://users.50megs.com/gambitsgal/intro.html
> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Portal/2450/jami1.html
> http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=gambitsjami
[1] Department of Water and Power, the bastards who drained the Owens
Valley for the fountains and carwashes of Southern California: see
"Chinatown" for one reference.
David Lesher
>Calibration on a VOM is always a problem. Too bad there's not a
>nice inexpensive standard AC source.
Even inexpensive Digital multimeters have far better accuracy than
yesteryear's Simpson 260's etc.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
David Lesher
>Depends on teh specific situation, but we've certainly seen _some_
>switchover to red and green LED units in the past couple of years.
Note the lamps for traffic signals were long-lived to begin with:
Thicker filaments to stand up to vibration of being swung around
in the wind.
Efficiency vs lifetime tradeoff heavily weighed toward "lifetime"
Double filaments; yes, two parallel filaments so that both
must fail before it goes dark.
There's one other lamp most folks know that's double filament. That's
the Red "Alternator" warning indicator on the dashboard. The reason
it's often designed that way is it's in a vital place in the circuitry;
if it fails, the alternator may fail to work as well.
I'm glad to see someone found a cite on the Livermore firehouse lamp;
I recall seeing it featured on Charles Kuralt's "On the Road" a
half lifetime ago.
Brian
David Tarkowski wrote:
...
> There exists at least one light bulb that has been lit continuously for
> <bignum> years. I want to say since Edison's time, but I don't have a cite so
> I won't. I saw a news story on it a couple of years back, they had to move it
> and all sorts of precautions were taken to make sure that it did not go out.
It is in a fire station in Livermore, CA USA.
I've seen a few articles about it, but the only one I could find
on line urrently has only a few sentences.
from http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9703/25/longest.lasting.bulb/index.html
LIVERMORE, California (CNN) --
It is no great surprise that the fire bell
at the Livermore Fire Station,
installed in 1876, still works.
But, surprise! So does the fire station's nightlight, a
turn-of-the-century light bulb that Chief Lynn Owens claims has
been burning practically nonstop since 1901.
...
Steven Johnson of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory ...
"They can make it very dim to last for a very long period of time,
or they can make it bright, like you the consumer want it, and last
for 750 or a thousand hours," he said.
Brian "Fresh juicy ripe electons work best"
lechugon
> Hi guys
>
> I had a search of the site, and the net, and did not come up with
> anything... maybe you guys can help.
>
> I remember when I was a kid, my (cynic of a) mother used to say that
> there are light globes (bulbs) that never blow, but they don't
> manufacture them, cos if they did, everyone'd buy a few, and never need
> to buy more.
>
> Since then, I have heard it mentioned in passing a few times. Sounds
> unlikely to me, but then so do many things that are true. Any ideas?
>
> -abby
I don't know if they are blown out, but my outside Christmas lights have
been up for 7 years.
-John
JamiJo
>Eastern Sierra, right? Haven't been there, but have been to Little
>Lakes, Long Lake, and a bunch of lakes further into the back country
>(Drunken Sailor, etc.). No 'lektricity there, though.
>
>By the way, the real error you made is that "Sierra" is singular.
>"Sierras" don't exist, at least not in proper Spanish.
I - don't know. I live in SoCal and this is in SoCal near a little town called
Lee Vining, California - which is near one of the entrances to Yosemite. It's
also near the ghost town Bodie and the Nevada boarder - 55 miles straight out
from the entrance to Lundy is Hawthorne, NV.
And - well, that's what my parents always called it - the "High Sierras" -
JTM
"David Hatunen" <hat...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote in message news:v%KF5.3627
>
> It could also play hell with your TV reception, as well as your
> cordless phone. Unfiltered rectified AC genearates all kinds of
> spurious spectra.
>
Have you looked at the mains wave form on an oscilloscope? Any similarity
with a sine wave is purely coincidental.
Cheers,
John
R H Draney
>
> By the way, the real error you made is that "Sierra" is singular.
> "Sierras" don't exist, at least not in proper Spanish.
Really?...not even if you have a whole *bunch* of saws?....r
--
"Those cracks in the sidewalk, they look like an outline of the west
coast of Mexico.
Those cracks in the sidewalk, they are the west coast of Mexico.
Those ants in the middle, they are eating the Yucatan.
Someone has stepped in Panama. They have left smudges in the Pacific."
-- ly...@pharmdec.wustl.edu
Ed Ellers
"Even inexpensive Digital multimeters have far better accuracy than
yesteryear's Simpson 260's etc."
Only if they are properly calibrated, either at the factory or later on by a
calibration lab. I tend to doubt that the $20 variety get heavily tweaked
at the end of the line; even though the factory certainly could have a good
voltage standard, they may not want to spend the time to do the job right on
every unit.
spo...@best.com
> I remember when I was a kid, my (cynic of a) mother used to say that
> there are light globes (bulbs) that never blow, but they don't
> manufacture them, cos if they did, everyone'd buy a few, and never
> need to buy more.
Your mom heard a less-known version of the "incredible carburetor"
legend. Lightbulb variants are rare, but some have been recorded.
See http://www.snopes.com/autos/business/magiccar.htm
If you want to skip straight to the good part instead of reading all
of the page, a lightbulb example is given down near the bottom.
Barbara "40-what? gal" Mikkelson
--
Barbara Mikkelson | [on Los Angeles] Last time I was there I got
spo...@best.com | a ticket for doing .45 caliber in a .22 caliber
| zone, so I said I'd never go back. - Bo Bradham
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Urban legends and more --> http://www.snopes.com
bs
lechugon <lech...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:39E7E58F...@uswest.net...
> Abby Winters wrote:
>
> > Hi guys
> > I remember when I was a kid, my (cynic of a) mother used to say that
> > there are light globes (bulbs) that never blow, but they don't
> > manufacture them, cos if they did, everyone'd buy a few, and never need
> > to buy more.
> >
> > unlikely to me, but then so do many things that are true. Any ideas?
> >
> > -abby
You can buy light bulbs that last much longer than the standard ones. I
believe it's merely a matter of thicker glass and a heavier-duty filament.
They are more expensive and use measurably more electricity than standard
bulbs of the same brightness.
They're useful, though, when you have fixtures in awkward, hard-to-reach
places - ceiling lights in stairwells comes most readily to mind - where the
less frequently you have to replace the bulb, the better. I would guess you
could find them in most home-supply stores or hardware stores or the like
places.
You can also buy "heavy-duty" bulbs of similar construction, for use in
items that get knocked around a lot - like the "trouble light" in my garage.
Fred Simons
David Hatunen
And has little to do with the result of half-wave rectification,
which will play hell with the spectrum even if the sine form is
perfect. Zero cutoff can help, of course.
Fred Klein
>
> I remember when I was a kid, my (cynic of a) mother used to say that
> there are light globes (bulbs) that never blow, but they don't
> manufacture them, cos if they did, everyone'd buy a few, and never need
> to buy more.
>
> Since then, I have heard it mentioned in passing a few times. Sounds
> unlikely to me, but then so do many things that are true. Any ideas?
1- unless you beleive in perpetual motion and the like,
there are no such things. Sure, there may theoretically be
bulbs that last decades, centuries, even millenia, but not
forever.
B- light bulbs _do_ get broken ocassionally, necessitating
the purchase of new ones.
Lastly, does anyone know how many light bulbs are currently
in use in the world? How many are going into new
construction? How many are broken each year (see 'B',
above)? If someone did come up with a sufficiently superior
replacemenr bulb, one that lasted effectively forever,
wouldn't they become as rich as Bill Gates, even without the
rapidly repeating business?
I know about planned obsolecence, but can't people make
money by just making a superior product and thereby
capturing the market?
Fred Klein
Vic K.
>
> >Hi guys
> >
> >I had a search of the site, and the net, and did not come up with
> >anything... maybe you guys can help.
> >
> >there are light globes (bulbs) that never blow, but they don't
> >manufacture them, cos if they did, everyone'd buy a few, and never need
> >to buy more.
> >
> >Since then, I have heard it mentioned in passing a few times. Sounds
> >unlikely to me, but then so do many things that are true. Any ideas?
>
> less efficient, and more expensive. People generally won't buy them, so they
> don't sell, so they are produced in lower numbers, so they are more expensive
> to produce, so they cost more, so people don't buy them, &cetera, &cetera, ad
> nauseam.
>
> Anthony "Vicious helix" McCafferty
Phillips is hawking a cheap long life bulb on TV that lasts in excess
of 5 years. I have a bulb that produces the equivalent of a 200 watt
light but consumes something like 40 watts of current and has an
estimated life of about 10 years.
VK
Thomas Prufer
wrote:
> Phillips is hawking a cheap long life bulb on TV that lasts in excess
>of 5 years. I have a bulb that produces the equivalent of a 200 watt
>light but consumes something like 40 watts of current and has an
>estimated life of about 10 years.
If it is what I think it is, it's not a light bulb in the sense of a
an incandescent filament lamp. It is rather a compact fluorescent tube
(some are visibly wrapped tubes, like a trombone) with associated
electronics in a compact base.
While I'm at it, the formula for incandescent-filament bulb lifetime
is:
t/t0 = (U0/U) exp n (that's U zero to U to the power of n)
t actual lifetime
t0 rated lifetime at nominal voltage
U voltage at bulb
U0 nominal voltage
n exponent, between 12 and 14 (!)
So halving the voltage (like using a 220 Volt bulb at110 Volts)
will give you anywhere from 4000 to 16000 times the rated lifetime,
pretty close to "never" for ULish purposes.
The bulb is nominally at 1/4 of the rated power: However, the bulb
becomes less efficient at giving light at lower temperatures. And the
resistance is not linear, it is lower at lower temperatures. The two
effects combine to give a *much* lower efficiency. Works the other way
around, too: overvoltage will burn out a bulb very quickly.
I have just gone and looked at a 12 Volt flashlight-type bulb at 12 V
and at 6 V: operated at 6 Volts, the bulb is dim and yellowish,
bordering on the reddish.
Thomas Prufer
danny burstein
>While I'm at it, the formula for incandescent-filament bulb lifetime
>is:
[snip] and continuing..
(when operated at 1/2 the rated voltage),
>The bulb is nominally at 1/4 of the rated power:
True, but as you point out in the next couple of lines, it ain't that
simple:
> However, the bulb becomes less efficient at giving light at lower
> temperatures. And the resistance is not linear, it is lower at lower
> temperatures.
That latter point actually is kind of good since it means that the lamp,
when first turned on and "cold", has low resistance. Hence there's a
starting surge of current which very quickly heats the lamp up to
operating temperature and almost instantly giving you full light output.
But of more relevance here.... :
> The two effects combine to give a *much* lower efficiency.
I don't see where you get that. If anything, the lower temperature from
the lower voltage would keep your resistance lower than the nominal (full
temperature) one. So the inverse temperature-resistance effect should
actually serve to (somewhat) ameliorate the problem of lower light output
rather than potentiate it.
> Works the other way around, too: overvoltage will burn out a bulb very
> quickly.
Same counter argument. running the lamp "hotter" should increase
resistance, thus keeping it a bit lower wattage and lower temp than would
otherwise be the case.
>I have just gone and looked at a 12 Volt flashlight-type bulb at 12 V
>and at 6 V: operated at 6 Volts, the bulb is dim and yellowish,
>bordering on the reddish.
You should have seen what the 100 watt lamps were doing in NYC for that
five or so minute period on 09-Nov-1965 when Big Alice was huffing and
puffing and supplying the entire Northeast USofA all by her lonesome...
>Thomas Prufer
danny 'ahhh, for the days Con Ed had coal-fired generators' burstein
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Thomas Prufer
wrote:
>> The two effects combine to give a *much* lower efficiency.
>
>I don't see where you get that. If anything, the lower temperature from
>the lower voltage would keep your resistance lower than the nominal (full
>temperature) one. So the inverse temperature-resistance effect should
>actually serve to (somewhat) ameliorate the problem of lower light output
>rather than potentiate it.
If you read on, you'll come to the quoted bit about luminous
efficiency showing you're right: for 1/2 the voltage, luminous
efficiency is 0.25 to 0.34 of the efficiency at full voltage. Sloppy
thinking on my part.
Useful light output over power is tricky: I'd expect light to go up
with temperature to the fourth power, though the maximum of black-body
radiation (is this roughly the color temperature?) goes up with the
temperature... And "black-body" may be way off.
Rather than think about this, I'll dust off a file sitting on my hard
disk (yes, I'm an engineer, not a physicist):
>Why making bulbs last longer often does not pay
>
>You may have heard that the life expectancy of a light bulb is roughly inversely proportional to the 12th or
>13th power of the applied voltage. And that power consumption is roughly proportional to voltage to the 1.4
>to 1.55 power, and that light output is roughly proportional to the 3.1 to 3.4 power of applied voltage. This
>would make the luminous efficiency roughly proportional to applied voltage to the 1.55 to 2nd power of
>applied voltage.
>Now, if a slight reduction in applied voltage results in a slight to moderate loss of efficiency and a major
>increase in lifetime, how could this cost you more?
>The answer is in the fact that the electricity consumed by a typical household bulb during its life usually costs
>many times more than the bulb does. Bulbs are so cheap compared to the electricity consumed by them
>during their lifetime that it pays to make them more efficient by having the filaments run hot enough to burn
>out after only several hundred to about a thousand hours or so.
>
>Here is an example with actual numbers (using U.S. dollars):
>
>Suppose you have 10 "standard" 100 watt 120 volt bulbs with a rated lifetime of 750 hours. Such bulbs
>typically cost around 75 cents in the U.S. The electricity used by all ten of these bulbs is 1 kilowatt, which
>would typically cost about 9 cents per hour (approximate U.S. average).
>Over 750 hours, this would cost (on an average) $67.50 for the electricity plus $7.50 for 10 bulbs, or $75.
>
>Now, suppose you use these bulbs with 110 volts instead of 120.
>These bulbs would consume about 87.8 watts instead of 100. However, they would only produce 76 percent of
>their normal light output (and this is a slightly optimistic figure). To restore the original light output, you
>need 13 of these bulbs. (And this will fall very slightly short.) Using 13 bulbs that consume 87.8 watts apiece
>results in a power consumption of 1141 watts. Over 750 hours at 9 cents per KWH, this would cost $77. This is
>more than the $75 cost of running 10 bulbs at full voltage even if the bulbs never burn out at 110 volts.
>At 110 volts instead of 120, the life expectancy of the bulbs may be tripled. One third of 13 times 75 cents is
>about $3.25, which adds to the $77 cost of electricity to result in an average total cost of $80.25 for 750 hours.
>This example should explain why you often get the most light for the least money using standard bulbs rather
>than longer-lasting ones.
This is quoted verbatim from "The Great Internet Light Bulb Book, Part
I, Incandescent including halogen light bulbs", Copyright (C) 1996
Donald L. Klipstein (Jr) (d...@misty.com). Lots more good stuff, also
why and when bulbs like to burn out, and why the surge of current at
startup is Not A Good Thing.
>> Works the other way around, too: overvoltage will burn out a bulb very
>> quickly.
>Same counter argument. running the lamp "hotter" should increase
>resistance, thus keeping it a bit lower wattage and lower temp than would
>otherwise be the case.
This is factored into the twelfth-power formula. Lower wattage and
lower temp than extrapolated linearly from nominal voltage and
resistance (power), but still the lifetime is *much* shorter.
Reminds me to get 16 Volt bulbs for the 12 V illumination fixtures
behind the doorbell panel.
Thomas Prufer
Lee Rudolph
...
>If someone did come up with a sufficiently superior
>replacemenr bulb, one that lasted effectively forever,
>wouldn't they become as rich as Bill Gates, even without the
>rapidly repeating business?
>
>I know about planned obsolecence, but can't people make
>money by just making a superior product and thereby
>capturing the market?
Lee "but he trolls unsuccessfully, by being too obvious" Rudolph
Medieval Knievel, Archduke of Oklahoma
"Fred Klein" <kdmlive...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> B- light bulbs _do_ get broken ocassionally, necessitating
> the purchase of new ones.
IIRC, I read in either Guiness or Ripley's (as a kid) that a light bulb had
been burning for something like 75 years, and its longevity was due to the
fact that it had never been turned off. Apparently, the cooling and
reheating of the filament is at least part of the reason that bulbs burn
out.
--
********************
Medieval Knievel
aa# 1552
ICQ # 26667824
***********************
Ed Ellers
"You should have seen what the 100 watt lamps were doing in NYC for that
five or so minute period on 09-Nov-1965 when Big Alice was huffing and
puffing and supplying the entire Northeast USofA all by her lonesome..."
For that matter, take a look (and then a listen) to
http://www.reelradio.com/mh/index.html#diwabcpb, to hear what that did to
WABC's turntables. (Apparently it took some time for the news to reach the
station's newsroom, let alone the DJ.)
Philip 'Yes, that's my address' Newton
Francis) wrote:
> San Diego is merely the first part of the state to be exposed to
> a free market for power. The reasons for this are manifold, and
> explaining in much more detail would probably trigger violations
> of the BOP.
Er, what's the BOP?
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <nospam...@gmx.li>
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate
F. Andrew McMichael
: Ob.TWIAVBP: Electricity rates in San Diego have increased rather
: dramatically in recent years. This is because California has an
: ever-increasing demand for electricity, but very little new power
: generating capacity.
: San Diego is merely the first part of the state to be exposed to
: a free market for power. The reasons for this are manifold, and
: explaining in much more detail would probably trigger violations
: of the BOP.
ObSanDiegoElectricity:
The Hotel Del was the first supplier of electricity in Southern
California, beginning in the [L]1890s, and supplying
power all the way up to Orange County.
--
Andrew McMichael
Assistant Editor
Papers of Thomas Jefferson
Princeton University
Drew Lawson
"Philip 'Yes, that's my address' Newton" <nospam...@gmx.li> writes:
>On 13 Oct 2000 22:34:59 GMT, jfra...@dungeon.engr.sgi.com (John
>Francis) wrote:
>
>> a free market for power. The reasons for this are manifold, and
>> explaining in much more detail would probably trigger violations
>> of the BOP.
>
The BOP is an ancient and mystical philosophy. Some claim that it
dates back to the mythical FAQ era, a time when people lurked then
thought then finally posted.
Drew "Ban on Politics" Lawson
--
|Drew Lawson | If you're not part of the solution |
|dr...@furrfu.com | you're part of the precipitate. |
|http://www.furrfu.com/ | |
Dan Drake
wrote:
> In article <39E7606A...@microtech.com>,
> David Nebenzahl <n...@microtech.com> wrote:
> >...
> >As I understand it, AC line voltages are variously givan as
> >110/115/117/120 volts, with the /actual/ voltage in some range
> >thereabouts (like between 110-120 volts).
>
> While the voltage ratings on the lamps themselves are nominal, they
> are meaningful, too. You should use lamps rated for your own line
> voltage. People who do the lamp maintenance at big buidldings and
> factories pay attention to this stuff.
>
> Your typical Target or WalMart isn't going to carry lamps with a
> variety of ratings, of course. Places like GreyBar may have a
> variety, though.
>
Say speaking of things with a slightly UL-ish quality, I've assumed this
one was true, but does someone know?
The early electrical distribution systems were set up deliberately with
different voltages because it was impossible to produce light bulbs to
tight specs. The ones that turned out to have lower resistance were rated
for lower voltage and sold in the appropriate area; and so on.
--
Dan Drake
d...@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/index.html
Maggie Newman
>Deborah Stevenson <stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>: I don't think I'm running into the BOP by mentioning that the less
>: often I'm standing on tiptoe on a kitchen chair trying to juggle a heavy
>: light fixture and a fragile light bulb over my head, the happier I am.
>
>Hiring the neighbor kid to change your lightbulbs every six months would
>probably be cheaper.
>
Deborah, you might want to consider my solution. I don't think 27 hours
of labor was too great a price to pay for a lifetime of free lightbulb
changes, not to mention carwashing, oil changing, and miscellaneous
household repairs, also the requirement to listen to vague whinges and
"I heard a funny noise" complaints. And I'm training the next
generation already.
Maggie "planning ahead" Newman
Deborah Stevenson
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Maggie Newman wrote:
> Deborah, you might want to consider my solution. I don't think 27 hours
> of labor was too great a price to pay for a lifetime of free lightbulb
> changes, not to mention carwashing, oil changing, and miscellaneous
> household repairs, also the requirement to listen to vague whinges and
> "I heard a funny noise" complaints. And I'm training the next
> generation already.
Well, so long as I can send them up to you after the 27 hours for proper
training, which evidently I never got, it's a deal. Just send 'em back to
me when they're old enough to be useful and pander to my every whim.
Thanks.
Deborah "the brat's in the mail" Stevenson
(stev...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu)
Brian B. Rodenborn
Medieval Knievel, Archduke of Oklahoma <fugliduck...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>IIRC, I read in either Guiness or Ripley's (as a kid) that a light bulb had
>been burning for something like 75 years, and its longevity was due to the
>fact that it had never been turned off. Apparently, the cooling and
>reheating of the filament is at least part of the reason that bulbs burn
>out.
Just as a counter argument to the "if you never turn it off, it won't
burn out" theory, I'll mention that there is a lamp in my house I keep
burning all the time. The bulb in that burns out periodically, and must
be replaced.
There is some interesting information at the following web site:
http://www.misty.com/~don/bulb1.html
--
Next we can discuss what type of person puts their hate mail in their
.SIG file for everyone to see. That could get interesting.
- RATBoy (to me on rec.arts.tv)
joe_...@my-deja.com
>>You get more out of most incandescent bulbs by running them
>>continously . Not only do you have stresses on the filament
>>from heating-cooling, but cooling allows minute inward leaking
>>in some bulbs.
> While we all believe this, and we've all seen lamps blow
> out when turned on, the manufacturers keep claiming it's not true.
It's been years, if ever, since I've personally seen a household
incandescent bulb burn out *except* promptly upon power-up, dying with
what one at least perceives in the dark room as a very bright flash.
Dunno the mechanism for this, however. Note that some electrical as
well as purely mechanical things are going on in that first split second
that don't apply to steady state operation.
> LEDs have recently started appearing in widespread
> usage in traffic lights.
Supposedly the street department loves their lower power drain and longer
life. This got started in the late 90s worldwide. Here are some facts
and claims and numbers for your perusal:
http://www.pnl.gov/forscom/led.html
http://www.ledpro.com/
http://www.semiconductor.agilent.com/news/pr/18may98.html
http://www.dialight.com/pdf/balls_web.pdf
http://www.nikkeibp.com/nea/jan97/jantt.html#fig4
...you get the idea.
All this is quite aside from claims that certain individual incandescent
bulbs have been around for some megaboss number of years. The
recordholder is said to be one at a fire station in Livermore, CA:
http://www.snopes.com/spoons/noose/lightbul.htm
How it could have escaped the Web-cam fad is beyond me...
--Joe
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Drew Lawson
joe_...@my-deja.com writes:
>
>>>You get more out of most incandescent bulbs by running them
>>>continously . Not only do you have stresses on the filament
>>>from heating-cooling, but cooling allows minute inward leaking
>>>in some bulbs.
>
>> While we all believe this, and we've all seen lamps blow
>> out when turned on, the manufacturers keep claiming it's not true.
>
>It's been years, if ever, since I've personally seen a household
>incandescent bulb burn out *except* promptly upon power-up, dying with
>what one at least perceives in the dark room as a very bright flash.
>Dunno the mechanism for this, however. Note that some electrical as
>well as purely mechanical things are going on in that first split second
>that don't apply to steady state operation.
The mechanical effects at that point include a rapidly building
magnetic field. I'm told that the zero-->full field transition
puts a strain on the filament. If it is brittle, that is a good
time to break.
If the flash *is* brighter (which I'm unsure of), I've guessed that
there might be a brief arc as the separated ends of the filament
move from in contact to "too far."
The odd case (to me) are the bulbs I've known which will sometimes
have the filament reconnect if jiggled just right. I don't know
why the ends would "stick" in those cases, though.
Drew "dim bulb" Lawson
David Scheidt
: In article <8sfqrk$4v5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
: joe_...@my-deja.com writes:
:>
:>It's been years, if ever, since I've personally seen a household
:>incandescent bulb burn out *except* promptly upon power-up, dying with
:>what one at least perceives in the dark room as a very bright flash.
: If the flash *is* brighter (which I'm unsure of), I've guessed that
: there might be a brief arc as the separated ends of the filament
: move from in contact to "too far."
I'm pretty sure the last time this came up, the arc was the preferred answer
to that.
: The odd case (to me) are the bulbs I've known which will sometimes
: have the filament reconnect if jiggled just right. I don't know
: why the ends would "stick" in those cases, though.
I think the filiment welds itself back together.
--
dsch...@enteract.com
But I simply can't find it anywhere in me to imagine that someone might want
to stick sharp pasta spikes down into his penis. -D.M. Procida
David Nebenzahl
> David Nebenzahl wrote:
> >
> > By the way, the real error you made is that "Sierra" is singular.
> > "Sierras" don't exist, at least not in proper Spanish.
>
> Really?...not even if you have a whole *bunch* of saws?....r
Well, um, in that context, sure.
Robert Alston
"Drew Lawson" <dr...@furrfu.com> wrote in message
news:8sftq0$1p43$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
<snip of bulb burning out discussion>
> The odd case (to me) are the bulbs I've known which will sometimes
> have the filament reconnect if jiggled just right. I don't know
> why the ends would "stick" in those cases, though.
It is called arc welding. It doesn't take a large machine and 440V
3-phase power to arc weld.
Robert "Altho a light bulb designed for that power level would last
forever at household usage levels. It just wouldn't have visible
light" Alston
Brian B. Rodenborn
>
>It's been years, if ever, since I've personally seen a household
>incandescent bulb burn out *except* promptly upon power-up, dying with
>what one at least perceives in the dark room as a very bright flash.
>well as purely mechanical things are going on in that first split second
>that don't apply to steady state operation.
Oddly, a few minutes ago (although not while actually reading *this*
post, darn the luck) the bulb in the hall outside my study burned out
all by its lonesome.
I see street lights go out all the time while I'm driving too.
Maybe I give off some sort of weird field.
Jack Gavin
>In article <8sfqrk$4v5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <joe_...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>
>>It's been years, if ever, since I've personally seen a household
>>incandescent bulb burn out *except* promptly upon power-up, dying with
>>what one at least perceives in the dark room as a very bright flash.
>>Dunno the mechanism for this, however. Note that some electrical as
>>well as purely mechanical things are going on in that first split second
>>that don't apply to steady state operation.
>
>Oddly, a few minutes ago (although not while actually reading *this*
>post, darn the luck) the bulb in the hall outside my study burned out
>all by its lonesome.
>
>I see street lights go out all the time while I'm driving too.
>Maybe I give off some sort of weird field.
Perhaps the "burning out" is merely the fixture's thermal protection
kicking in (turning off the bulb for a while). Once it cools enough, the
bulb comes back on. Then hot and off. Then cool and on. Ad aurora.
--
Jack "it just dawned on me" Gavin
Andrew Reid
<H1RG5.67040$ib7.9...@news1.rdc1.nj.home.com>:
>>I see street lights go out all the time while I'm driving too.
>>Maybe I give off some sort of weird field.
>
>
>Perhaps the "burning out" is merely the fixture's thermal protection
>kicking in (turning off the bulb for a while). Once it cools enough, the
>bulb comes back on. Then hot and off. Then cool and on. Ad aurora.
>
Cecil Adams, aka "The Straight Dope", had a column
about the street-light thing a couple of years ago.
There are certain people who, for whatever reason,
notice street lights burning out or shutting down
around them all the time.
The article included some technical discussion of
street lights, and suggested that a few-cycles-per-hour
"flashing" mode might occur when the lamps are old and
enfeebled, but (IIRC) debunked the notion of explicit
thermal protection, and/or lambs being extinguished by
the personal auras of weirdos.
It caught my attention, because I'd been noticing it
for years, and didn't know it was weird until Cecil told
me.
Andrew "I hate it when that happens." Reid
Andrew Reid
<8FD060217reida...@199.45.45.11>:
> Cecil Adams, aka "The Straight Dope", had a column
>about the street-light thing a couple of years ago.
>There are certain people who, for whatever reason,
>notice street lights burning out or shutting down
>around them all the time.
>
Tripped over the "send" button before the cite
got in, sorry -- it's in the "Straight Dope" archives
here:
<http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_047.html>
> The article ... debunked the notion of ...
> lambs being extinguished by the personal auras
> of weirdos.
Speaking of tripping over the send button --
it'd be a useful skill at passover, though. Maybe
Archie Plutonium can look into it.
Andrew "Mary had a little lamp" Reid
Lee Ayrton
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Jack Gavin wrote:
> >I see street lights go out all the time while I'm driving too.
>
> Perhaps the "burning out" is merely the fixture's thermal protection
> kicking in (turning off the bulb for a while). Once it cools enough, the
> bulb comes back on. Then hot and off. Then cool and on. Ad aurora.
Streetlights these days are generally of the enclosed-arc type. Not to
put too fine a point on it, the on-and-off examples are probably the
result of an aging "bulb" that cannot maintain an arc once it gets up to
operating temperature, not any built-in thermal protection. The bulb
cools down and the ballast re-strikes it.
John Francis
Brian B. Rodenborn <bb...@ritz.cec.wustl.edu> wrote:
>
>I see street lights go out all the time while I'm driving too.
Street lights usually have some kind of automated controller.
Sometimes it's a simple timer - sometimes there is also a
light-sensitive element, too. And occasionally the element
is installed incorrectly, so the light from a car's headlights
can fall on it.
--
John "or perhaps it's a streetlight initiation thing" Francis
Lee Ayrton
On 17 Oct 2000, John Francis wrote:
> >I see street lights go out all the time while I'm driving too.
> >Maybe I give off some sort of weird field.
>
> Street lights usually have some kind of automated controller.
> Sometimes it's a simple timer - sometimes there is also a
> light-sensitive element, too. And occasionally the element
> is installed incorrectly, so the light from a car's headlights
> can fall on it.
Only when the luminaire has been knocked down and is laying in the
street. On a typical "cobra head"-shaped street lighting unit the
sensor is the small cylinder on the top of the unit. It is quite
impossible to trick them with a light held only a few feet off the ground.
Yes, I've tried.
Lightning will sometimes do it, though.
John Francis
TWIAVBP. I've encountered systems where there was a single light sensor
(mounted in a separate unit about two feet high at the base of one standard)
controlling multiple street lights. This was back in the days when photo-
sensitive devices were less common (and less reliable), so sticking one
all the way on the top of the light just meant more expensive trips out
to fix it when it invariably went wrong.
David Lesher
>Oddly, a few minutes ago (although not while actually reading *this*
>post, darn the luck) the bulb in the hall outside my study burned out
>all by its lonesome.
GE Nela Park rebuked this. The reason it seems like it is simple;
when is the one time you are SURE to be observing a lamp when it
fails? Why, when you stand next to it and turn it on.
>I see street lights go out all the time while I'm driving too.
That's easier to explain. Gas discharge lamps don't fail open when
their end is near, they draw more power. When it's more than the
ballast (the electronics within..) supplies in "run" mode, it turns
off. When it cools, the ballest restarts it, and it runs for a while
longer, until it gets hot and draws more power....
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Brian B. Rodenborn
Jack Gavin <jackgavi...@home.com> wrote:
>Brian B. Rodenborn wrote in message <8sghdm$c...@ritz.cec.wustl.edu>...
>>
>>Maybe I give off some sort of weird field.
>
>Perhaps the "burning out" is merely the fixture's thermal protection
>kicking in (turning off the bulb for a while). Once it cools enough, the
>bulb comes back on. Then hot and off. Then cool and on. Ad aurora.
I considered something like that, which is why I said "go out" rather
than "burn out". I don't know much about street lights, and what the
reasons for sudden turn off in the darkness are.
Since I have become aware of it, any occurrences stand out. I forget
what they call that, like learning a new word then hearing it all the
time.
Brian B. Rodenborn
Andrew Reid <rei...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>rei...@bellatlantic.net (Andrew Reid) wrote in
><8FD060217reida...@199.45.45.11>:
>
>> Cecil Adams, aka "The Straight Dope", had a column
>>about the street-light thing a couple of years ago.
>>There are certain people who, for whatever reason,
>>notice street lights burning out or shutting down
>>around them all the time.
>>
> Tripped over the "send" button before the cite
>got in, sorry -- it's in the "Straight Dope" archives
>here:
>
><http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_047.html>
Thanks for the link. I've never noticed them coming back
on, but then I don't walk past many street lights. The ones
I see are while in vehicles.
Me, not the street lights.
>> The article ... debunked the notion of ...
>> lambs being extinguished by the personal auras
>> of weirdos.
Awwww.
Brian B. Rodenborn
David Lesher <wb8...@nrk.com> wrote:
>bb...@ritz.cec.wustl.edu (Brian B. Rodenborn) writes:
>
>
>>Oddly, a few minutes ago (although not while actually reading *this*
>>post, darn the luck) the bulb in the hall outside my study burned out
>>all by its lonesome.
>
>GE Nela Park rebuked this. The reason it seems like it is simple;
>when is the one time you are SURE to be observing a lamp when it
>fails? Why, when you stand next to it and turn it on.
Well, in this case the light had been on for several hours, then went
out while I was in here typing away.
I don't normally turn on the ceiling light in the study when cruising
usenet, prefering the indirect light of the hall fixture. So when it
went out, it got very dark in here. Hence I noticed it.
Robert Alston
"Jack Gavin" <jackgavi...@home.com> wrote in message
news:H1RG5.67040$ib7.9...@news1.rdc1.nj.home.com...
For the streetlights that is a possibility. For a regular light bulb
the chances of that happening is zero. Putting the cheapest
thermocouple available in a regular lightbulb would tremendously
increase the cost. And it would add a failure mode to the bulb. Easier
and cheaper to let the bulb overheat and melt the filament.
Robert "lightbulbs wholesale to jobbers for less than a quarter each"
Alston
Robert Alston
"David Lesher" <wb8...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:8sigkh$gti$1...@panix6.panix.com...
*this*
> >post, darn the luck) the bulb in the hall outside my study burned
out
> >all by its lonesome.
>
> when is the one time you are SURE to be observing a lamp when it
> fails? Why, when you stand next to it and turn it on.
Do they have a website? I may have missed a post or two but surely
the GE engineers noted that MOST (99.9+%) happen that way but not all.
I have a light in my house that is turned off only when I change the
bulb. Since I do indeed have to change the bulb every now and then it
is self evident that either it burns out while on or I have a
poltergeist rapidly flicking the on off switch. I prefer the first
option.
>
> >I see street lights go out all the time while I'm driving too.
>
> That's easier to explain. Gas discharge lamps don't fail open when
> their end is near, they draw more power. When it's more than the
> ballast (the electronics within..) supplies in "run" mode, it turns
> off. When it cools, the ballest restarts it, and it runs for a while
> longer, until it gets hot and draws more power....
Quite correct. But there are indeed some (expensive) bulbs for
streetlights with integral heat protection devices. Why they have them
I have no idea but they do have them. I am sure there is a reason but
since I was only installing the damn thing I didn't have to worry
about the reason. I just wondered if the engineer that spec'd it was
insane. (Note: the light in question was next to a boiler tower at a
power plant. Damn near guaranteed to shut itself off if the plant was
generating power.)
Robert "Not quite a Jack Of All Trades but pert near close" Alston
David Lesher
[Lamps just SEEM to always burn out when you first turn
them on...]
>Do they have a website? I may have missed a post or two but surely
>the GE engineers noted that MOST (99.9+%) happen that way but not all.
>I have a light in my house that is turned off only when I change the
>bulb. Since I do indeed have to change the bulb every now and then it
>is self evident that either it burns out while on or I have a
>poltergeist rapidly flicking the on off switch. I prefer the first
>option.
Don't recall where I read that; it may have been on Lighting Div's
www page <http://www.gelighting.com/na/contactus/faq.html#better>
or in printed documentation...
>Quite correct. But there are indeed some (expensive) bulbs for
>streetlights with integral heat protection devices. Why they have them
>I have no idea but they do have them.
Some may explode if overheated too far. This can be ungood.
Drew Lawson
wb8...@nrk.com (David Lesher) writes:
>bb...@ritz.cec.wustl.edu (Brian B. Rodenborn) writes:
>
>
>>Oddly, a few minutes ago (although not while actually reading *this*
>>post, darn the luck) the bulb in the hall outside my study burned out
>>all by its lonesome.
>
>GE Nela Park rebuked this. The reason it seems like it is simple;
>when is the one time you are SURE to be observing a lamp when it
>fails? Why, when you stand next to it and turn it on.
That sounds quite reasonable. But in my experience, in my own
residences, I very rarely find a light that is just dead. Usually
it either goes out when turned on, or it is still working.
I thought last night that I was witnessing the beginning of a
failure of the third bulb in a fixture in which I'd just replaced
the other two. But then I noticed that the TV was flickering at
the same times as the bulb.
Drew "I love living in a tech area
that was wired for the '50s" Lawson
R H Draney
>
> "David Lesher" <wb8...@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:8sigkh$gti$1...@panix6.panix.com...
> > when is the one time you are SURE to be observing a lamp when it
> > fails? Why, when you stand next to it and turn it on.
>
> the GE engineers noted that MOST (99.9+%) happen that way but not all.
> I have a light in my house that is turned off only when I change the
> bulb. Since I do indeed have to change the bulb every now and then it
> is self evident that either it burns out while on or I have a
> poltergeist rapidly flicking the on off switch. I prefer the first
> option.
My best data point is the light in the ceiling fan fixture above my
stairwell...this light is on for something like 16 hours a day...as the
vertical distance from the landing to the ceiling is eleven feet, and
changing this bulb requires dragging the big folding ladder out of the
closet, every such trip is memorable...I'd estimate that of the last
dozen times I've had to change this bulb (during which time I've
replaced maybe three other bulbs altogether in other parts of the
house), only twice have I found it burned out when I got home from
work...the other times it blows out when I turn it on in the
morning...(the third possibility, that it blow in the evening when I'm
home watching TV has yet to occur)....
Since I have to climb these stairs to go to bed at night, it's
exceedingly unlikely that the bulb would have gone out during the day
and I'd fail to notice it until flipping the switch the following
morning....r
--
My other tractor is a Hoyt-Clagwell
David Hatunen
Robert Alston <rom...@onemain.com> wrote:
>
>"Drew Lawson" <dr...@furrfu.com> wrote in message
>news:8sftq0$1p43$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
>
><snip of bulb burning out discussion>
>
>> The odd case (to me) are the bulbs I've known which will
>> sometimes have the filament reconnect if jiggled just right. I
>> don't know why the ends would "stick" in those cases, though.
>
>It is called arc welding. It doesn't take a large machine and 440V
>3-phase power to arc weld.
Arc welding is done at fairly low voltage and high current, so a
step down transformaer is the piece of equipment used.
In the case of filament ends welding, it would be more a case of
contact welding.
One of the things that can happen when an incandescent lamp is
vibrated is that some of the coils can touch and weld themselves
together. This electrically bypasses part of the filament meaning
the part of the filament in the circuit has lower resistance, and
that means more heat and light. This is probably the flash just as
the lamp burns out.
This is a do it yourself experiment that I mentioned elsewhere:
turn on an incandescent lamp and gently but firmly repeatedly tap
the bulb with your fingertip. it will shortly become much brighter,
rather like a photoflood lamp. It will remain in this brightened
state for a time ranging from quick burnout to an hour or so before
failing.
--
********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@sonic.net) ***********
* Daly City California *
******* My typos are intentional copyright traps ******
David Hatunen
>>>Maybe I give off some sort of weird field.
>>
>>Perhaps the "burning out" is merely the fixture's thermal
>>protection kicking in (turning off the bulb for a while). Once
>>it cools enough, the bulb comes back on. Then hot and off. Then
>>cool and on. Ad aurora.
>
>rather than "burn out". I don't know much about street lights, and
>what the reasons for sudden turn off in the darkness are.
>
>Since I have become aware of it, any occurrences stand out. I
>forget what they call that, like learning a new word then hearing
>it all the time.
May I suggest a possible reason? These days many streetlights have
highly focused lenses that direct light almost entirely downward.
Those at crosswalks may actually have a lens that lights up the
narrow strip of the corsswalk and little else, playing as much
light as possible on any pedestrians in the middle of the street.
It could be that when driving you reach the side limit of the lens
and the lamp only appears to go out. Kind of like those traffic
signal left turn lights you can't even see from the next lane over.
Bill Heyman
>
> Robert Alston wrote:
> >
> > "David Lesher" <wb8...@panix.com> wrote in message
> > news:8sigkh$gti$1...@panix6.panix.com...
> > > GE Nela Park rebuked this. The reason it seems like it is simple;
> > > when is the one time you are SURE to be observing a lamp when it
> > > fails? Why, when you stand next to it and turn it on.
> >
> > Do they have a website? I may have missed a post or two but surely
> > the GE engineers noted
Has anyone recently observed that GE is gaining a monopoly in
lightbulbs? My Kroger has only GE, the Tom Thumb has only GE, and now
the Tru-Value hardware, which used to have some really good Bulgarian
bulbs, is now GE. My experience (I'm over 60) is that GE bulbs last
least longest of any bulbs.
I have floodlights in 20 foot ceilings that I have not changed ever (the
house was built 10 years ago) because the switches are rheostats, and I
never turn them all the way up. They wouldn't put rheostats in the
bathrooms for some reason, so I use the little AC to DC discs, that fit
on the ends of the bulbs. I've replaced 2 out of 8 of those floodlights
in 10 years.
Bill
joe_...@my-deja.com
> While the voltage ratings on the lamps themselves are nominal, they
> are meaningful, too. You should use lamps rated for your own line
> voltage. People who do the lamp maintenance at big buidldings and
> factories pay attention to this stuff.
...to whatever extent they still use incandescents rather than (depending
on application) retrofitting regular fluorescents, the compact
fluorescents that are drop-in replacements for incandescents, or the
various larger items such as mercury vapor, metal halide, etc., which are
cheaper to operate in the long run. I seldom see the big mogul-base
incandescents that used to be ubiquitous in factories, school gyms, etc.
-- I suspect that the 70s energy crises did them in.
> Your typical Target or WalMart isn't going to carry lamps with a
> variety of ratings, of course. Places like GreyBar may have a
> variety, though.
Looking around Ace Hardware, which had a variety of household medium-base
incandescents such as GE, Westinghouse, Abco, and their house brand
(dunno who makes it), was both revelatory and confusing. All their
"normal" bulbs were nominally rated at 120V. Their efficiency (lumens
per watt) varied with brand and perhaps other particulars and so did
their rated lifetime.
Long Life bulbs, the kind you buy when you don't want to drag out the 20-
foot ladder and then shampoo the dirt from the ladder out of the carpet
in the atrium very often, were all rated at 130V. They deliver fewer
lumens per watt, but the rated lifetime is dramatically better (about
4000 hours vs. 1000 or fewer for a regular bulb).
Also available are Rough Duty bulbs with ruggedized filaments and
sometimes shatter resistant coatings -- the kind you put in high-shock or
high-vibration environments like a garage trouble light, or in
applications like food service where shattering of the bulb would be
especially bad. Some of the Rough Duty bulbs are also Long Life bulbs.
Here are some interesting lightbulb links that touch upon these issues:
* http://www.misty.com/~don/bulb1.html
* http://bulbs.com/default.asp?pagespec=lg (see also "Ask Dr. Bulb,"
a Javascript popup on their page)
* http://www.eren.doe.gov/erec/factsheets/eelight.html (Department of
Energy weighs in on energy efficiency of lighting -- note the bits
about getting the *light* most effectively to where you want it
as well as about the efficiency of converting electricity into light
rather than heat)
Olivers
>
>
> May I suggest a possible reason? These days many streetlights have
> highly focused lenses that direct light almost entirely downward.
> Those at crosswalks may actually have a lens that lights up the
> narrow strip of the corsswalk and little else, playing as much
> light as possible on any pedestrians in the middle of the street.
> It could be that when driving you reach the side limit of the lens
> and the lamp only appears to go out. Kind of like those traffic
> signal left turn lights you can't even see from the next lane over.
>
> --
re-equipped to gubmint standards with new low voltage/photo senor
activated street lights, suffereing from a mass case of
"Pigeon-twilight" deposited by the dreadful critters perched atop the
fixtures (althere here grackles might be more likely defecators).
The new trend to solar panel powered school crossing lights, even in
areas with adequate distribution,seems worth a comment.
Jack Gavin
"Robert Alston" <rom...@onemain.com> wrote:
>
> "Jack Gavin" <jackgavi...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:H1RG5.67040$ib7.9...@news1.rdc1.nj.home.com...
> > >Maybe I give off some sort of weird field.
> >
> >
> > Perhaps the "burning out" is merely the fixture's thermal protection
> > kicking in (turning off the bulb for a while). Once it cools
> enough, the
> > bulb comes back on. Then hot and off. Then cool and on. Ad
> aurora.
> >
>
> the chances of that happening is zero. Putting the cheapest
> thermocouple available in a regular lightbulb would tremendously
> increase the cost. And it would add a failure mode to the bulb. Easier
> and cheaper to let the bulb overheat and melt the filament.
I did not posit a thermal cutoff in the *bulb*, but rather in the
*fixture*, such as exists in my "high hat" recessed lights at home.
Fiberglass insulation had been installed in the ceiling too close to
one of them, and it exhibited this on-off-on-off phenomenon.
Another poster mentioned mentioned never seeing the streetlights
suddenly blink on. Most streetlights around me don't blink on at full
brightness, but rather blink on dimly, and then gain brightness when
they warm up. This is stealthier than a bright blink-on.
--
Jack Gavin
David Lesher
>Has anyone recently observed that GE is gaining a monopoly in
>lightbulbs? My Kroger has only GE, the Tom Thumb has only GE, and now
>the Tru-Value hardware, which used to have some really good Bulgarian
>bulbs, is now GE. My experience (I'm over 60) is that GE bulbs last
>least longest of any bulbs.
I see competitors at Home Depot and such, but given that the last
time I did the math, a 60 cent lamp consumed $6.00+ of electricity
over its rated lifetime; it seems to me you'd want the most efficient
lamps.
>I have floodlights in 20 foot ceilings that I have not changed ever (the
>house was built 10 years ago) because the switches are rheostats, and I
>never turn them all the way up. They wouldn't put rheostats in the
>bathrooms for some reason, so I use the little AC to DC discs, that fit
>on the ends of the bulbs. I've replaced 2 out of 8 of those floodlights
>in 10 years.
And paid how much for the power?
n.b. The WMATA Metro system has several dozen Edison base lamps, in
glass globes, lining the roof of each aboveground station. They've
been replacing them bank by bank with compact fluorescent. The lumen
output difference is staggering.
Brian B. Rodenborn
David Hatunen <hat...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote:
>
>May I suggest a possible reason? These days many streetlights have
>highly focused lenses that direct light almost entirely downward.
>Those at crosswalks may actually have a lens that lights up the
>narrow strip of the corsswalk and little else, playing as much
>light as possible on any pedestrians in the middle of the street.
>It could be that when driving you reach the side limit of the lens
>and the lamp only appears to go out. Kind of like those traffic
>signal left turn lights you can't even see from the next lane over.
No, they're definitely going out. Since I'm "sensitized", the phenomena
get my attention. It's just one out of the street full as we go along.
Some of the other suggestions about ones nearing failure, so they are
going off and on with some regularity make sense.
Lon Stowell
Bill Heyman <heym...@home.com> wrote:
>R H Draney wrote:
>>
>> Robert Alston wrote:
>> >
>> > "David Lesher" <wb8...@panix.com> wrote in message
>> > news:8sigkh$gti$1...@panix6.panix.com...
>> > > GE Nela Park rebuked this. The reason it seems like it is simple;
>> > > when is the one time you are SURE to be observing a lamp when it
>> > > fails? Why, when you stand next to it and turn it on.
>> >
>> > Do they have a website? I may have missed a post or two but surely
>> > the GE engineers noted
>
>Has anyone recently observed that GE is gaining a monopoly in
>lightbulbs? My Kroger has only GE, the Tom Thumb has only GE, and now
>the Tru-Value hardware, which used to have some really good Bulgarian
>bulbs, is now GE. My experience (I'm over 60) is that GE bulbs last
>least longest of any bulbs.
Quick check. Phillips in the majority. Sanyo a couple,
several offbrands. Not a GE in the house. But then I
buy mine cheap at Orchard Supply or anywhere they are cheap.
R H Draney
I'm not a good one for this survey...I've been buying Tungsram at the
Greenback/All A Dollar store for the last couple of years...at two bulbs
for a buck, I figure I'm ahead if I walk out of the room to check on
lunch and they're still burning when I get back...and it's the only
place I know I can find the 40w variety for those fixtures that demand
such a rating....r
Nathan Tenny
Bill Heyman <heym...@home.com> wrote:
>Has anyone recently observed that GE is gaining a monopoly in
>lightbulbs?
I had the opportunity to check this out last night while looking specifically
for some specialized GE bulbs. My local Home Depot has a panoply of bulbs,
overwhelmingly dominated by Phillips. The hardware store around the corner
from me seems to carry no bulb not made by Sylvania.
I don't think GE is gaining a monopoly, but perhaps the light-bulb industry
is moving toward the same kind of exclusive brand/store deals one sees
between soda companies and fast-food chains.
NT
--
Nathan Tenny | Words I carry in my pocket, where they
Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA | breed like white mice.
<nten...@qualcomm.com> | - Lawrence Durrell
David Hatunen
>Has anyone recently observed that GE is gaining a monopoly in
>lightbulbs? My Kroger has only GE, the Tom Thumb has only GE, and
>now the Tru-Value hardware, which used to have some really good
>Bulgarian bulbs, is now GE. My experience (I'm over 60) is that
>GE bulbs last least longest of any bulbs.
All our bulbs are Sylvania, purchased at Costco.
Robert Alston
"David Hatunen" <hat...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote in message
news:yvkH5.4245$9p6.2...@typhoon.sonic.net...
> In article <KiNG5.39255$F65.2...@nntp2.onemain.com>,
> Robert Alston <rom...@onemain.com> wrote:
> >
> >"Drew Lawson" <dr...@furrfu.com> wrote in message
> >news:8sftq0$1p43$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
> >
> ><snip of bulb burning out discussion>
> >
> >> The odd case (to me) are the bulbs I've known which will
> >> sometimes have the filament reconnect if jiggled just right. I
> >> don't know why the ends would "stick" in those cases, though.
> >
> >It is called arc welding. It doesn't take a large machine and 440V
> >3-phase power to arc weld.
>
> Arc welding is done at fairly low voltage and high current, so a
> step down transformaer is the piece of equipment used.
Yeah I know what one is. I was just leaving it simple for everyone not
interested in the details of how an arc welder works.
>
> In the case of filament ends welding, it would be more a case of
> contact welding.
Sort of. It requires solid contact to weld but it still requires that
initial arc to get the temp up so it will weld.
>
> One of the things that can happen when an incandescent lamp is
> vibrated is that some of the coils can touch and weld themselves
> together. This electrically bypasses part of the filament meaning
> the part of the filament in the circuit has lower resistance, and
> that means more heat and light. This is probably the flash just as
> the lamp burns out.
Sometimes. And sometimes not. When it first gets power the initial
surge can cause it to actually melt. When this happens it dies. But it
does so with a nice arc. This arc is indeed bright. But yeah, on a
standard lamp there is enough induced vibration to cause the effect
you mention.
>
> This is a do it yourself experiment that I mentioned elsewhere:
> turn on an incandescent lamp and gently but firmly repeatedly tap
> the bulb with your fingertip. it will shortly become much brighter,
> rather like a photoflood lamp. It will remain in this brightened
> state for a time ranging from quick burnout to an hour or so before
> failing.
I'd be willing to bet most people get the bright flash of a quick
burnout. But with practice they could manage to get more time out of
it. Use a lower wattage bulb than your fixture is rated for tho if
anyone is going to try this. If it lasts any time at all your average
60 watt bulb is gonna produce heat like a 100 watt bulb. If your using
a 60 watt fixture for the test be sure to replace it after the test as
it is no longer considered safe for use at 60 watts due to heat
damage.
Robert "Did I mention that I used to be an electrician?" Alston
Sean Harding
> I - don't know. I live in SoCal and this is in SoCal near a little town called
> Lee Vining, California - which is near one of the entrances to Yosemite. It's
When did Lee Vining get moved to Southern California? Last time I was there,
it was almost due east of San Francisco (which is definitely not in southern
california), near the Nevada border. If anything, it might
have been slightly north of San Francisco.
Moving a town is hard work.
sean
--
Sean Harding |"You never know who's still awake
http://www.dogcow.org/sean/ | you never know who understands."
Address in header *is* valid | --Dar Williams
David Hatunen
Sean Harding <sh1fd710e5f22dba9a...@sharding.net> wrote:
>JamiJo <gambit...@aol.comnoway> wrote:
>
>> I - don't know. I live in SoCal and this is in SoCal near a
>> little town called Lee Vining, California - which is near one of
>> the entrances to Yosemite. It's
>
>When did Lee Vining get moved to Southern California? Last time I
>was there, it was almost due east of San Francisco (which is
>definitely not in southern california), near the Nevada border. If
>anything, it might have been slightly north of San Francisco.
>
>Moving a town is hard work.
"Southern California" and "Northern Califronia" are states of mind,
not of geography.
David Hatunen
Robert Alston <rom...@onemain.com> wrote:
>
>"David Hatunen" <hat...@bolt.sonic.net> wrote in message
>news:yvkH5.4245$9p6.2...@typhoon.sonic.net...
>> In article <KiNG5.39255$F65.2...@nntp2.onemain.com>,
>> Robert Alston <rom...@onemain.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >"Drew Lawson" <dr...@furrfu.com> wrote in message
>> >news:8sftq0$1p43$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
>> >
>> ><snip of bulb burning out discussion>
>> >
>> >> The odd case (to me) are the bulbs I've known which will
>> >> sometimes have the filament reconnect if jiggled just right. I
>> >> don't know why the ends would "stick" in those cases, though.
>> >
>> >It is called arc welding. It doesn't take a large machine and 440V
>> >3-phase power to arc weld.
>>
>> Arc welding is done at fairly low voltage and high current, so a
>> step down transformaer is the piece of equipment used.
>
>Yeah I know what one is. I was just leaving it simple for everyone
>not interested in the details of how an arc welder works.
>
>> In the case of filament ends welding, it would be more a case of
>> contact welding.
>
>Sort of. It requires solid contact to weld but it still requires that
>initial arc to get the temp up so it will weld.
The contact area itself will generate sufficient heat, especially
since it will be smaller than the actual conductors (filaments).
You can do this with a metal plate and a conducting wire of the
same metal, usign a 6 volt lantern battery; the wire will stick to
the plate when it touches. This is actually a not terribly
uncommon manner of production welding, where, say, a post must be
fastened to a plate.
>Robert "Did I mention that I used to be an electrician?" Alston
Dave "did I mention that I used to be a production engineer?"
Hatunen
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> Moving a town is hard work.
Try it for an entire state.
Charles Wm. "Wheeling WV" Dimmick
Robert Alston
<snip of some of this >
> >Sort of. It requires solid contact to weld but it still requires
that
> >initial arc to get the temp up so it will weld.
>
> The contact area itself will generate sufficient heat, especially
> since it will be smaller than the actual conductors (filaments).
> You can do this with a metal plate and a conducting wire of the
> same metal, usign a 6 volt lantern battery; the wire will stick to
> the plate when it touches. This is actually a not terribly
> uncommon manner of production welding, where, say, a post must be
> fastened to a plate.
It MIGHT work that way with a lightbulb but don't count on it.
Lightbulb filaments tend to spall when they melt. The spalling allows
for a larger contact area than the original filament size. BUT that
won't come into play in the described scenario in any case. Tapping
the bulb causes the wire to vibrate. As it vibrates the two ends come
together. A split second before it comes together you get an arc. If
you don't get the arc then the two ends bounce off each other to fast
for contact welding to occur due to resistance heating. And due to
tungsten's rather incredible rate of heat dissipation your not going
to get enough heat buildup to allow for multiple contacts to do the
job.
But your correct about the wire and 6 volt battery. But that is also a
solid contact. You hold the wire to the plate and turn on the power,
or vice versa. Bounce that wire at a high vibration rate against that
plate and watch how long it takes to get contact welding to work. That
one little difference does make a large change.
>
> >Robert "Did I mention that I used to be an electrician?" Alston
>
> Dave "did I mention that I used to be a production engineer?"
> Hatunen
Having observed way to many engineering plans get sent back to the
engineer with field changes to make the thing work I don't think that
is really a mark in your favor. <for the humor impaired (which Dave
isn't) insert smiley here> But based on your posts I just assumed you
had a low change rate and just forgot about tungsten's dissipation
rate and a contact time that is measured in nanoseconds.
Robert "Worked for a fabrication company also" Alston
Bob Ward
<sh1fd710e5f22dba9a...@sharding.net> wrote:
>JamiJo <gambit...@aol.comnoway> wrote:
>
>> I - don't know. I live in SoCal and this is in SoCal near a little town called
>> Lee Vining, California - which is near one of the entrances to Yosemite. It's
>
>When did Lee Vining get moved to Southern California? Last time I was there,
>it was almost due east of San Francisco (which is definitely not in southern
>california), near the Nevada border. If anything, it might
>have been slightly north of San Francisco.
>
>Moving a town is hard work.
>
>sean
... but not as hard as educating JamiJo, apparently.