No accent
JoAnne Schmitz
was surprised. "You have no accent." He's from Canada but doesn't have a
strong "aboot" thing going on.
I know there's no such thing as "no accent". I think mine's got a little
bit of Southern in it ("thainks" for "thanks") which disqualifies it for
"no accent" even if I thought something could be considered to be "no
accent".
So this raises the question of why and how there is an accent that seems
less "accenty" to most native speakers than, say, full-on Scots or drowning
in Alabama, even to those Scots and Alabamans. I wonder how such an accent
gets accepted as such. Is it "broadcast standard"? We don't have RP as
such on this side of the pond.
JoAnne "Sound of missile hitting Dundalk: BEEEEEWM!" Schmitz
--
The new Urban Legends website is <http://www.tafkac.org>
That's TAFKAC.ORG
Do not accept lame imitations at previously okay URLs
Lizz Holmans
wrote:
>A person at work asked me where I come from. When I told him Baltimore, he
>was surprised. "You have no accent." He's from Canada but doesn't have a
>strong "aboot" thing going on.
Non-Americans have a great deal of trouble hearing American accent
variations unless they are up front--deep Southern is about the only
ones most Brits who have not been to the US can identify.
>
>I know there's no such thing as "no accent". I think mine's got a little
>bit of Southern in it ("thainks" for "thanks") which disqualifies it for
>"no accent" even if I thought something could be considered to be "no
>accent".
Hmm. You didn't sound terribly southern, but it's been a while.
>
>So this raises the question of why and how there is an accent that seems
>less "accenty" to most native speakers than, say, full-on Scots or drowning
>in Alabama, even to those Scots and Alabamans. I wonder how such an accent
>gets accepted as such. Is it "broadcast standard"? We don't have RP as
>such on this side of the pond.
No, but we do have the Midwest, which is supposed to be the 'ideal'
accent for newsreaders (don't ask for a cite cos I'm too busy
handwaving). The actual Midwest apparently doesn't include Chicago or
Indiana, both of which sound distinctive to me.
Lizz 'I can't stand squorsh in Worshington' Holmans
--
Rumpeta, rumpeta, rumpeta
Lon
> A person at work asked me where I come from. When I told him Baltimore, he
> was surprised. "You have no accent." He's from Canada but doesn't have a
> strong "aboot" thing going on.
I have heard similar comments about my total lack of northwestern
Montana accent. If I now return to that area, I believe I am able to
spot something that could possibly be termed an accent, but I only
notice this amongst the old timers who are largely rancher/farmers. I
have mixed opinions as to whether this somewhat nasal characteristic is
really an accent, as to my ears it sounds like the natural product of
freezing one's nasal passages in the winter and stuffing them with dust
and plant matter in the summer. However, it does appear a bit
distinctive and I haven't noticed it amongst folks from a goodly
distance away who live where I would also expect them to freeze in
winter and get dust/crop clogged in summer.
>
> I know there's no such thing as "no accent". I think mine's got a little
> bit of Southern in it ("thainks" for "thanks") which disqualifies it for
> "no accent" even if I thought something could be considered to be "no
> accent".
I've been rather lucky and spent several years in widely geographic
areas of the US. I am trying to recall any area where the natives truly
consider themselves to have an accent as opposed to considering
non-natives to be accented or talk funny.
I suspect the concept is formed rather early or some manner, as when I
live in an area for a while, I do tend to pick up a bit of their accent.
The natives still think I talk funny, but friends from other areas
will comment that I am beginning to sound like a mild version of the
accent from that area. How much of this is predictive analysis and how
much real I've never truly attempted to measure.
>
> So this raises the question of why and how there is an accent that seems
> less "accenty" to most native speakers than, say, full-on Scots or drowning
> in Alabama, even to those Scots and Alabamans. I wonder how such an accent
> gets accepted as such. Is it "broadcast standard"? We don't have RP as
> such on this side of the pond.
Fascinating to me is the differences in geographic reach of accents in
various areas. e.g. North Carolina where I can usually identify the
Tarboro accent [virtually unintelligible, roughly like a mouth of
chewing tobacco], the north eastern coastal accent, the south eastern
coastal accent, the Charlotte accent [almost Atlanta softness], the
eastern slope mountain accent and the western slope mountain accent
[rather similar to an eastern Tennessee accent] and I am sure several
more that I've not really placed. Arguably the greatest variation is
New York urban area where one can almost place someone to Jersey or a
two block area of the greater NYC area simply by hearing them say
"coffee" and counting the syllables and vowels.
More interesting is how some more widely separated areas will have
somewhat similar accents.
And of course, the total lack of accent in the greater San Jose Bay
Area. [1]
[1] There should probably be a ban on the discussion of whether anyone
really cares that San Jose is so much larger than San Francisco and yet
is so mind-numbingly boringly undistinguished nobody cares compared to
the more glamourous sister to the north.
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> A person at work asked me where I come from. When I told him Baltimore, he
> was surprised. "You have no accent." He's from Canada but doesn't have a
> strong "aboot" thing going on.
>
> I know there's no such thing as "no accent". I think mine's got a little
> bit of Southern in it ("thainks" for "thanks") which disqualifies it for
> "no accent" even if I thought something could be considered to be "no
> accent".
>
> So this raises the question of why and how there is an accent that seems
> less "accenty" to most native speakers than, say, full-on Scots or drowning
> in Alabama, even to those Scots and Alabamans. I wonder how such an accent
> gets accepted as such. Is it "broadcast standard"? We don't have RP as
> such on this side of the pond.
>
> JoAnne "Sound of missile hitting Dundalk: BEEEEEWM!" Schmitz
>
I've had people in various parts of the country tell me that
I have no accent. On a visit to the Bahamas with a church group
about 48 years ago I was told by our Nassau hosts that I was the
only one in the group that didn't have an "American" accent.
I attribute all of this to the fact that I am an unconscious
natural mimic, and pick up the sounds of the people with whom
I am conversing. However, I know full well that there are certain
words that I use with a pronounced accent, saying "warsh" for
"wash", for instance.
Anyway, thinking of how you sound, I do not perceive a
recognizable accent in your speech. There are very slight
southern overtones, but they are not immediately apparent.
Your hPHil, on the other hand...
Charles
R H Draney
JoAnne Schmitz wrote:
> A person at work asked me where I come from. When I told him Baltimore, he
> was surprised. "You have no accent." He's from Canada but doesn't have a
> strong "aboot" thing going on.
When someone mentions Baltimore, I tend to hear Spiro Agnew, and the
phrase "flowting bowts" comes into my head...(that's not a very good
transcription, but it's the best I can do)....
Maybe if I watched more John Waters movies....r
hawk
Does that count as an afu accent?
"JoAnne Schmitz" <jsch...@qis.net> wrote in message
news:1a8he2l5lqeen4ink...@4ax.com...
David DeLaney
>I suspect the concept is formed rather early or some manner, as when I
>live in an area for a while, I do tend to pick up a bit of their accent.
I do that when talking to someone for more than a few minutes.
>Arguably the greatest variation is
>New York urban area where one can almost place someone to Jersey or a
>two block area of the greater NYC area simply by hearing them say
>"coffee" and counting the syllables and vowels.
"Starbu8&#(*( 9(**&
NO CAFFEINETEUR
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>"JoAnne Schmitz" <jsch...@qis.net> wrote in message
>> less "accenty" to most native speakers than, say, full-on Scots or
>> drowning
>> in Alabama, even to those Scots and Alabamans. I wonder how such an
>> accent
>> gets accepted as such. Is it "broadcast standard"? We don't have RP as
>> such on this side of the pond.
>What about y'all's funny spelling?
>Does that count as an afu accent?
Ain't no accents in ASCII. Apostrophes, sure...
Dave "\'sibbole\`t" DeLaney
TOliver
1. For someone from Balmer to claim they have no accent is prepostorous.
There must be 50 commonly used words, including the name of the place, which
give them away.
2. Academics, often gownies seeking acceptance from townies, have been
known (aided by their academic travels and travails) to lose identifiable
accents and arrive at some Ivorian standard of conversation, suitable for
faculty clubs, lecture halls, upscale church congregants, etc., if not the
check out lane at WalMart.
3. Northwestern Montana? Ha! The secret of "accentless-less areas"
involves isolated thin-on-the-ground rural clutures into which urbanites
from other climes move (or those who left return) gradually wiping out the
remains of any local patois. Even the locals adapt and adopt "unaccented"
conversation. The local accent reamins out from town in households which
minimize contact with all the high-dfalutin immigrants.
4. Texans without accents will develop one (or more) of those used within
the state. As with chicken fried steak, batter dipped or flour pounded, all
Texican is not the same. That's easpecially true when you finda resurant
which has goat on the meu.
TM "Tres Bosques Twang" Oliver
James
JoAnne Schmitz wrote:
> A person at work asked me where I come from. When I told him Baltimore, he
> was surprised. "You have no accent." He's from Canada but doesn't have a
> strong "aboot" thing going on.
>
> I know there's no such thing as "no accent". I think mine's got a little
> bit of Southern in it ("thainks" for "thanks") which disqualifies it for
> "no accent" even if I thought something could be considered to be "no
> accent".
>
> So this raises the question of why and how there is an accent that seems
> less "accenty" to most native speakers than, say, full-on Scots or drowning
> in Alabama, even to those Scots and Alabamans. I wonder how such an accent
> gets accepted as such. Is it "broadcast standard"? We don't have RP as
> such on this side of the pond.
>
> JoAnne "Sound of missile hitting Dundalk: BEEEEEWM!" Schmitz
Aboot is particularly east Coast Canadian. Nova Scotia or Newfoundland.
The sucess of Canadians in US broadcasting is primarily a "west of
Quebec" thing. Peter Jennings, John Roberts, Robert MacNeil, Keith
Morrison, Kevin Newman, Peter and Arthur Kent - all except the Kents
were from Ontario, and the Kents did much of their Canadian reporting
from Toronto.
But here in Toronto, we can still pick out a Buffalo (ask them to say
Tonawanda) or Ohio accent pretty easily.
James "southern Ontario accent here" Linn
TeaLady (Mari C.)
> I know there's no such thing as "no accent". I think
> mine's got a little bit of Southern in it ("thainks" for
> "thanks") which disqualifies it for "no accent" even if I
> thought something could be considered to be "no accent".
>
I remember being told that there is a "Cleveland" accent (or
non-accent) that was considered the broadcast "standard".
Damned if I can recall by whom, or in what context, exactly.
But the little factoid has stuck with me for ages and ages.
--
TeaLady (mari)
"The principle of Race is meant to embody and express the utter
negation of human freedom, the denial of equal rights, a
challenge in the face of mankind." A. Kolnai
Avast ye scurvy dogs ! Thar be no disease in this message.
jmcgill
> I remember being told that there is a "Cleveland" accent (or
> non-accent) that was considered the broadcast "standard".
I always have wondered where the people who talk like 1940s movies
came from and where they went.
Gary G. Taylor
> I know there's no such thing as "no accent". I think mine's got a little
> bit of Southern in it ("thainks" for "thanks") which disqualifies it for
> "no accent" even if I thought something could be considered to be "no
> accent".
Interesting that you mention this. I speak what I consider to be Standard
American, although enunciated more clearly than most because of years of
self-training and experience in broadcasting. (Listening to a recording of
oneself is a great way of training your voice.) I have had many people ask
me about my accent, citing it as British "or something." Perhaps it's more
a matter of tone and cadence than any particular stresses or lack of them;
I don't know.
--
Gary G. Taylor * Pomona, CA * 34.074°N 117.754°W
gary [] donavan [] org * http://www [] donavan [] org
"The two most abundant substance in the Universe are hydrogen
and stupidity." --Frank Zappa, R.A. Heinlein and many others
Lee Ayrton
> JoAnne Schmitz <jsch...@qis.net> wrote in
> news:1a8he2l5lqeen4ink...@4ax.com:
>
>>I know there's no such thing as "no accent". I think
>>mine's got a little bit of Southern in it ("thainks" for
>>"thanks") which disqualifies it for "no accent" even if I
>>thought something could be considered to be "no accent".
>
> I remember being told that there is a "Cleveland" accent (or
> non-accent) that was considered the broadcast "standard".
> Damned if I can recall by whom, or in what context, exactly.
> But the little factoid has stuck with me for ages and ages.
(Disclaimer: I am not a language mechanic, I just like looking up stuff
that interests me.)
Your high school teacher, perhaps? I have a vague and undocumentable
memory of a school teacher telling us that Ohio was considered by the
broadcast industry as the USofA "neutral" accent.
You and I aren't the only ones to be told something along those lines,
apparently: <URL:http://linguistlist.org/ask-ling/accent.html>
[QUOTE]--------------------------------------------------------------
When radio was developed in the early twentieth century, many radio
stations in the US and the UK selected their continuity presenters and
news readers by their accent. So 'General American' is sometimes known
as 'Network English' and 'RP' is sometimes known as 'BBC English.' The
effect of these policies of course was to add even further to the
prestige of the reference accents, and to increase the population's
exposure to them.
[UNQUOTE]-------------------------------------------------------------
Why those accents? In the USofA, and tarring with my very widest brush,
it is demonstrable that broad, identifiable regional accents are
freighted with cultural baggage on the part of the (mythical average)
listener. Yankee, Old South, Texan, California Surfer, each listens to
the other and thinks "That's an Other, not from my tribe." The thought
may continue "and s/he is not worthy of my attention" or, "where's the
Mute button?" -- again, tarring with my very widest brush. It seems to
me that a vague Midwest accent lacks the attributes (or, sometimes,
irritants) that listeners use to identify and categorize Others -- no
misplaced Rs, comfortable pacing, no drawl, no uptalk. With a careful
eye on the feelings of those who live in "flyover country", a vague
Midwest accent to a USofAn audience is utopian -- essentially placeless.
The speaker might not be "one of Us" but also succeeds in not being
"one of Them." For those who must span the Great Pond, there's the
vague "Mid Atlantic accent". Not really Queen's English, not quite
North American. Again, the speaker might not be from here, but he ain't
one of Them.
In the UK, there's this claim:
<URL:http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/yourvoice/accent2.shtml#A>
[QUOTE]----------------------------------------------------------------
When the BBC was founded, Lord Reith believed that the traditional RP
accent - along with the Standard English dialect - would be the kind of
speech that the largest number of people would easily understand.
[UNQUOTE]--------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps he did believe that or, perhaps, the decision exposes his own
bias. Or both.
So why don't USofAns all speak in the same accent as network news
readers, as has been warned of for decades? Because, apparently,
personal linguistics are more heavily influenced by your immediate peers
than by your broader exposure:
<URL:http://www.pbs.org/speak/ahead/mediapower/media/>
[QUOTE]----------------------------------------------------------------
Regional dialects continue to diverge from standard dialects despite the
exposure of dialect speakers to television, radio, movies and other mass
media. The best-studied dialect divergence is occurring in American
inner-cities, where the dialects of the most segregated
African-Americans sound less like their white counterparts with respect
to certain features than they did two or three generations ago. Yet
these groups are avid consumers of mass media. William Labov observes
that in inner-city Philadelphia the “dialect is drifting further away”
from other dialects despite up to eight hours of daily exposure to
Standard American English on television and in schools.
[UNQUOTE]--------------------------------------------------------------
It would appear that that is because it has to do with the memetics* of
group identification.
<URL:http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/tv/>
[QUOTE]----------------------------------------------------------------
"our language expresses who we are: our complex and simultaneous
identities as individuals and members of society. [...] We want to sound
like the people around us."
[UNQUOTE]--------------------------------------------------------------
Again, Us and Them, and a biological need for social inclusion. Our
accents change with social setting and context. My use above the
colloquial "ain't" wouldn't appear in a formal paper, and isn't in
frequent use in verbally, but in some settings it may appear.
And, of course, the whole house of cards only stands on the macro level
and falls apart on the micro level. Ordinary conversational accents can
vary from town to town, one side of town to the other, or from block to
block.
Lee "Again, not a language mechanic" Ayrton
* I subscribe to a theory of weak memetics. Memes have no intention, no
survival drive, but successful ones do spread.
Lee Ayrton
I've often wondered if anyone in real life at the time spoke with those
accents.
Hatunen
That was the old acting style. They went away when Marlon Brando
and Paul Newman and James Dean came along.
>
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Hatunen
<knot...@knotdonavan.org> wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:58:40 -0400, JoAnne Schmitz wrote:
>
>> I know there's no such thing as "no accent". I think mine's got a little
>> bit of Southern in it ("thainks" for "thanks") which disqualifies it for
>> "no accent" even if I thought something could be considered to be "no
>> accent".
>
>Interesting that you mention this. I speak what I consider to be Standard
>American, although enunciated more clearly than most because of years of
>self-training and experience in broadcasting. (Listening to a recording of
>oneself is a great way of training your voice.) I have had many people ask
>me about my accent, citing it as British "or something." Perhaps it's more
>a matter of tone and cadence than any particular stresses or lack of them;
>I don't know.
I spen a year living in Montreal in the mid-1960s, and when I
came back I was surprised to find that we Americans talk through
our noses.
Hatunen
I go back to the Golden Age of Radio, and regional accents seemed
to be a lot stronger then, as noticed in radio interviews with
people and assorted appearances on game shows. For instance, the
Brooklyn accent always seemed stronger than today, and so did the
Maine accent.
There was a radio show that was on a little before I was old
enough to pay attention that featured a linguist who did a Prof
Henry Higgins routine. He would talk to a contestant, ask a few
questions, have them read a set paragraph, and proceed to tell
the contestant where he/she spent teir first year or two of life,
where they lived at various stages of life , and where they lived
now. If he was wrong the contestant got a prize, but he was
rarely wrong.
sta1...@yahoo.com
Hatunen wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:22:12 GMT, "Gary G. Taylor"
> <knot...@knotdonavan.org> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:58:40 -0400, JoAnne Schmitz wrote:
> >
> >> I know there's no such thing as "no accent". I think mine's got a little
> >> bit of Southern in it ("thainks" for "thanks") which disqualifies it for
> >> "no accent" even if I thought something could be considered to be "no
> >> accent".
> >
> >Interesting that you mention this. I speak what I consider to be Standard
> >American, although enunciated more clearly than most because of years of
> >self-training and experience in broadcasting.
I heard that it all came from the Army. Midwesterners were chosen by
the Army as the radio operators because everyone could understand them.
All the other "accents" were not as mutually understandable.
I can't remember where I heard this, whether it was written or spoken.
Huck" probably from my father" Itume
Lee Ayrton
> There was a radio show that was on a little before I was old
> enough to pay attention that featured a linguist who did a Prof
> Henry Higgins routine. He would talk to a contestant, ask a few
> questions, have them read a set paragraph, and proceed to tell
> the contestant where he/she spent teir first year or two of life,
> where they lived at various stages of life , and where they lived
> now. If he was wrong the contestant got a prize, but he was
> rarely wrong.
That routine survived at least as late at the 1960s on daytime TV
variety shows like The Mike Douglas Show. I don't recall if there was
only one practitioner who made the rounds of the shows or more than one.
Lee Ayrton
> Hatunen wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:22:12 GMT, "Gary G. Taylor"
>><knot...@knotdonavan.org> wrote:
>>>On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:58:40 -0400, JoAnne Schmitz wrote:
>>>
>>>>I know there's no such thing as "no accent". I think mine's got a little
>>>>bit of Southern in it ("thainks" for "thanks") which disqualifies it for
>>>>"no accent" even if I thought something could be considered to be "no
>>>>accent".
>>>
>>>Interesting that you mention this. I speak what I consider to be Standard
>>>American, although enunciated more clearly than most because of years of
>>>self-training and experience in broadcasting.
>
> I heard that it all came from the Army. Midwesterners were chosen by
> the Army as the radio operators because everyone could understand them.
> All the other "accents" were not as mutually understandable.
Related: I Was Told Long Ago <tm> that the Bell Telephone System
operated a central training facility for their operators that included
voice lessons that resulted in their distinctive "twang".
Oddly, I'm unable to formulate a satisfactory Google search to tell me more.
Lee "Just _try_ to get a live Operator today" Ayrton
R H Draney
Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
> Lee "Just _try_ to get a live Operator today" Ayrton
Literally "today", I was doing some testing with someone in another
department who had to enter his data using his touchtone phone...he was
also on a conference-call system with me at the time...every time he'd
start keying things in, a voice would break in and say "excuse me, this
is the conference operator, did you need assistance?", her voice
queering the data entry in the bargain...this happened five or six
times in about half an hour....
R H "just try *not* getting a live operator" Draney
Ralph Jones
>On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:22:12 GMT, "Gary G. Taylor"
><knot...@knotdonavan.org> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:58:40 -0400, JoAnne Schmitz wrote:
>>
>>> I know there's no such thing as "no accent". I think mine's got a little
>>> bit of Southern in it ("thainks" for "thanks") which disqualifies it for
>>> "no accent" even if I thought something could be considered to be "no
>>> accent".
>>
>>Interesting that you mention this. I speak what I consider to be Standard
>>American, although enunciated more clearly than most because of years of
>>self-training and experience in broadcasting. (Listening to a recording of
>>oneself is a great way of training your voice.) I have had many people ask
>>me about my accent, citing it as British "or something." Perhaps it's more
>>a matter of tone and cadence than any particular stresses or lack of them;
>>I don't know.
>
>I spen a year living in Montreal in the mid-1960s, and when I
>came back I was surprised to find that we Americans talk through
>our noses.
I got an interesting lesson in accents once on a train from Paris to
Tours. We fell into conversation with a charming young woman who spoke
grammatically and idiomatically flawless English with a slight accent
that I couldn't begin to place, until she turned around and I got to
read her T-shirt: Sydney University.
She was a native Frenchwoman and a grad student in linguistics (Tours
being a noted academic center in that discipline), and was on her way
home after a year of teaching French in Austria.
Then it occurred to me that she had started the conversation by asking
us where _we_ were from: she was trying to categorize _our_ accents.
rj
jmcgill
> Related: I Was Told Long Ago <tm> that the Bell Telephone System
> operated a central training facility for their operators that included
> voice lessons that resulted in their distinctive "twang".
I have personally been involved with a call center in Bangalore that has
a substantial focus on voice and accent training. This kind of training
is a big business there, and they are quite proud of their work.
Gary G. Taylor
> where the dialects of the most segregated African-Americans
And Hispanics as well. It is interesting that these groups tend to fight
each other (at least the gang-identified fractions) but they all thend to
speak and understand the same "urban"(?) language. Perhaps common
experiences in prison have something to do with this.
JoAnne Schmitz
> It seems to
>me that a vague Midwest accent lacks the attributes (or, sometimes,
>irritants) that listeners use to identify and categorize Others -- no
>misplaced Rs, comfortable pacing, no drawl, no uptalk. With a careful
>eye on the feelings of those who live in "flyover country", a vague
>Midwest accent to a USofAn audience is utopian -- essentially placeless.
> The speaker might not be "one of Us" but also succeeds in not being
>"one of Them." For those who must span the Great Pond, there's the
>vague "Mid Atlantic accent". Not really Queen's English, not quite
>North American. Again, the speaker might not be from here, but he ain't
>one of Them.
Kewl.
I am often amused by the accents used by "society" people on old TV shows
such as "What's My Line." The Mid Atlantic accent is pretty common there.
JoAnne "common only in the numeric sense, of course" Schmitz
The Horny Goat
>I spen a year living in Montreal in the mid-1960s, and when I
>came back I was surprised to find that we Americans talk through
>our noses.
You DO realize that Montreal people whose first language is English
speak with a strongly distinctive accent from the rest of Canada - and
that accent has nothing to do with French.
The portion of folks from Montreal whose first language is French
typically have a totally different accent when speaking English.
They're two quite distinct accents as someone from Toronto or Montreal
which have no difficulty recognizing them as "not from here".
Vancouver and Toronto area accents are quite similar but there are
enough regional words that given 5 to 10 minutes conversation one can
tell. (It is interesting listening to my wife who has lived in
Vancouver for 20 years but is a Toronto-area native talking to her
mother)
It's not as pronounced (no pun intended) as California vs. New York
but it's definitely there.
Of course the biggest shocker was when we visited Disneyworld in 1997
and met an intern at the EPCOT center who had a nametag saying she was
from a town in Ontario about 10 mi. from my wife's hometown but who it
turned out was 11 months into a 12 month internship. At first she
didn't believe the girl was where she was from but a few geographical
questions proved she was the indeed real thing. The thing was the girl
had an accent that was pure "Bubba" either north Florida or south
Georgia. We half expected her to talk about hunting gators from her
accent - which had been acquired in no more than 11 months (which she
said was her first time away from home for more than a week).
James
The Horny Goat wrote:
> Of course the biggest shocker was when we visited Disneyworld in 1997
> and met an intern at the EPCOT center who had a nametag saying she was
> from a town in Ontario about 10 mi. from my wife's hometown but who it
> turned out was 11 months into a 12 month internship. At first she
> didn't believe the girl was where she was from but a few geographical
> questions proved she was the indeed real thing. The thing was the girl
> had an accent that was pure "Bubba" either north Florida or south
> Georgia. We half expected her to talk about hunting gators from her
> accent - which had been acquired in no more than 11 months (which she
> said was her first time away from home for more than a week).
Some people consciously or subconsciously pick up accents, or fail to
hold their own.
I had a cousin (from southern Ontario) who went to Egnland for 6 months
and I could tell from her newly acquired accent which London
neighbourhood she was visiting.
James
Lee Ayrton
> The Horny Goat wrote:
>
>>Of course the biggest shocker was when we visited Disneyworld in 1997
>>and met an intern at the EPCOT center who had a nametag saying she was
>>from a town in Ontario about 10 mi. from my wife's hometown but who it
>>turned out was 11 months into a 12 month internship. At first she
>>didn't believe the girl was where she was from but a few geographical
>>questions proved she was the indeed real thing. The thing was the girl
>>had an accent that was pure "Bubba" either north Florida or south
>>Georgia. We half expected her to talk about hunting gators from her
>>accent - which had been acquired in no more than 11 months (which she
>>said was her first time away from home for more than a week).
>
> Some people consciously or subconsciously pick up accents, or fail to
> hold their own.
An illustration: In AFU we don't use emoticons or IM-style amputations
and initialisms. It is a group-specific "accent" that may or may not
hold for individuals posting in other venues.
This reflects what I believe to be a basic survival behavior for social
animals: Fitting in with the herd. One could go on about exclusion
based on perceived difference as a willful choice in humans -- as has
occasionally happened in AFU in meta threads about certain people -- but
the underpinning I think is explicable as biological. cf promiscuity as
gene broadcasting vs. lifetime bonding as a social stricture.
> I had a cousin (from southern Ontario) who went to Egnland for 6 months
> and I could tell from her newly acquired accent which London
> neighbourhood she was visiting.
An idea carried to the comic absurd extreme in _Zelig_.
<URL:http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086637/>
Lee "One of his older, funnier movies." Ayrton
R H Draney
Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
> An idea carried to the comic absurd extreme in _Zelig_.
> <URL:http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086637/>
>
> Lee "One of his older, funnier movies." Ayrton
Yet somehow made three years after the one in which he himself used the
"older, funnier movies" line in the script....r
Hatunen
<lcr...@home.ca> wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:47:34 -0700, Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>I spen a year living in Montreal in the mid-1960s, and when I
>>came back I was surprised to find that we Americans talk through
>>our noses.
>
>You DO realize that Montreal people whose first language is English
>speak with a strongly distinctive accent from the rest of Canada - and
>that accent has nothing to do with French.
Which has what to do with Americans talking through their noses?
>The portion of folks from Montreal whose first language is French
>typically have a totally different accent when speaking English.
Duh. See question above.
Back in the 1950s my roommate at Rensselaer was a
Canadian-American born in Saskatoon. His father was a prominent
nuclear physicist who had worked on Canadian nuclear projects,
such as Chalk River. His father was a professor at McGill
University for a while, so they lived in Montreal. His mother
found that when they went to university parties or gatherings
everyone spoke bilingually. She didn't know French so she decided
to learn.
She asked their maid, a Quebecoise, to help her learn French.
After many months she felt confident enough to use her new French
at a party.
She told me she said a few sentences and everyone got rather
quiet and looked at her. She couldn't figure out the problem
until she discovered her maid was the Quebec equivalent of a
hillbilly.
Hatunen
>
>The Horny Goat wrote:
>
>> Of course the biggest shocker was when we visited Disneyworld in 1997
>> and met an intern at the EPCOT center who had a nametag saying she was
>> from a town in Ontario about 10 mi. from my wife's hometown but who it
>> turned out was 11 months into a 12 month internship. At first she
>> didn't believe the girl was where she was from but a few geographical
>> questions proved she was the indeed real thing. The thing was the girl
>> had an accent that was pure "Bubba" either north Florida or south
>> Georgia. We half expected her to talk about hunting gators from her
>> accent - which had been acquired in no more than 11 months (which she
>> said was her first time away from home for more than a week).
>
>Some people consciously or subconsciously pick up accents, or fail to
>hold their own.
I still retain some characteristics of my year in Canada in the
mid-1960s (not to menton my Canadian roommate) and my four years
in Kentucky in the early 1960s.
Y'all have a good day, eh?
Lizz Holmans
>
>I still retain some characteristics of my year in Canada in the
>mid-1960s (not to menton my Canadian roommate) and my four years
>in Kentucky in the early 1960s.
>
>Y'all have a good day, eh?
While even after nine years I've not lost my very American accent, I
have learned their vocabulary. I don't use it, though, unless someone
really doesn't understand American English.
Since a whole lot of T and V programs shown Over Here are American, I
don't usually have much problem, except that folks in Yorkshire
occasionally make me talk cos it's so 'exotic'.
Lizz 'Oklahoma !=exotic, just far away' Holmans
--
Rumpeta, rumpeta, rumpeta
James
Another almost scientific datapoint.
Was listening to 'As It Happens' on CBC Radio the other day, and heard
an interesting piece on the funniest accent in Britain. A lecturer on
comedy at the University of Aberdeen did a study to compare regional
accents in Britain and determine the funniest. She did a survey where
people listened to the same joke told in a number of regional accents
and rated them.
http://www.cbc.ca/radioshows/AS_IT_HAPPENS/20060822.shtml
The Birmingham accent was judged the funniest, followed by Liverpool
and Yorkshire (IIRC).
James 'no MSG here' Linn
JoAnne Schmitz
<layrton@REMOVE_ME.panix.com> wrote:
>sta1...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Hatunen wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 06:22:12 GMT, "Gary G. Taylor"
>>><knot...@knotdonavan.org> wrote:
>>>>On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:58:40 -0400, JoAnne Schmitz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I know there's no such thing as "no accent". I think mine's got a little
>>>>>bit of Southern in it ("thainks" for "thanks") which disqualifies it for
>>>>>"no accent" even if I thought something could be considered to be "no
>>>>>accent".
>>>>
>>>>Interesting that you mention this. I speak what I consider to be Standard
>>>>American, although enunciated more clearly than most because of years of
>>>>self-training and experience in broadcasting.
>>
>> I heard that it all came from the Army. Midwesterners were chosen by
>> the Army as the radio operators because everyone could understand them.
>> All the other "accents" were not as mutually understandable.
I know I've read this in one of the twins' advice columns, Dear Abby or Ann
Landers. Don't know if it is the source or a vector, though.
>Related: I Was Told Long Ago <tm> that the Bell Telephone System
>operated a central training facility for their operators that included
>voice lessons that resulted in their distinctive "twang".
'Ny-un' is easier to distinguish from 'Five' than 'Nine'.
JoAnne "not to be confused with 'Nah-ee-ah-ee-ay-un'" Schmitz
coj
> While even after nine years I've not lost my very American accent, I
> have learned their vocabulary. I don't use it, though, unless someone
> really doesn't understand American English.
>
> Since a whole lot of T and V programs shown Over Here are American, I
> don't usually have much problem, except that folks in Yorkshire
> occasionally make me talk cos it's so 'exotic'.
We (3 ukians) were recently in Seattle and a waitress in a sushi bar
said "your accents are like music to my ears".
Accents? We don't have no accents!
> Lizz 'Oklahoma !=exotic, just far away' Holmans
I first read that as "erotic"
--
coj
TOliver
"JoAnne Schmitz" <jsch...@qis.net> wrote ...
Lesson from Air Intercept Contral School, NAS Brunswick, GA, 1963......
"Niner, but never Fiver!"
TM "Clansman 6, you are Missiles Free.*" Oliver
*Spoken in quiet monotone, not as not to arouse already over-primed emotions
likely at moments like that.
Nick Spalding
on Fri, 25 Aug 2006 00:32:28 GMT:
> Lesson from Air Intercept Contral School, NAS Brunswick, GA, 1963......
>
> "Niner, but never Fiver!"
>
> TM "Clansman 6, you are Missiles Free.*" Oliver
>
> *Spoken in quiet monotone, not as not to arouse already over-primed emotions
> likely at moments like that.
When I was a signaler in the Army Cadets at school five was "fife" and, as
you say, nine was "niner".
--
Nick Spalding
Gary G. Taylor
> Some people consciously or subconsciously pick up accents, or fail to hold
> their own.
I've found myself doing that when talking to people -- and then doing my
best to suppress it, lest I be seen as mocking the other individual.
James
Gary G. Taylor wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 05:50:44 -0700, James wrote:
>
> > Some people consciously or subconsciously pick up accents, or fail to hold
> > their own.
>
> I've found myself doing that when talking to people -- and then doing my
> best to suppress it, lest I be seen as mocking the other individual.
I was at a party once where a recently immigrated scottish man was
carrying on in lively conversation. We had both consumed a fair amount
of beverages.
I have in the past carried off on purpose a strong scots accent - My
grandparents were 3rd generation canadians but were ancesters of scots,
and lived in a very predominately scottish area, and had a trace of
accent left. I once wore a kilt to a dress ball, and encountered some
scottish pipers, who I managed to convince with my "scots" accent. (I
did fess up eventually after they failed to place my home town by my
accent)>
But on this occasion, I was not trying at all to pick up the accent,
but obviously I did, and the young former Glaswegian was not at all
impressed. He wanted to knock my block off, but I convinced him I meant
nothing by it.
My credible french accent gets me in to trouble all the time, as people
assume I can speak better french than I can, based on the
"authenticity" of my accent. For the record I used to be a mimic when I
was younger, entertaining my friends. I'm not sure whether it was an
ability that I picked up on or developed.
James " not making a mockery since 1961" Linn
Bob Church
> operated a central training facility for their operators that included
> voice lessons that resulted in their distinctive "twang".
>
> Oddly, I'm unable to formulate a satisfactory Google search to tell me more.
>
>
> Lee "Just _try_ to get a live Operator today" Ayrton
I was a telephone operator for Bell Telephone from about 1972 to 1974,
and never heard of this training center. Some of the women working
there (I was in the Marietta, Ohio office) had been around for decades
and on slow evenings we talked about just about every aspect of
telephony, including references to Central, but they never mentioned a
place that gave voice lessons.
Bob Church
David Lesher
>When I was a signaler in the Army Cadets at school five was "fife" and, as
>you say, nine was "niner".
As "nine" is hard to differentiate from "nein"...
I heard a UL that SHAPE Brussels had a special phonetic alphabet
for abusing newbie English speakers:
C as in chateau
K as in knowledge
etc..
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
TOliver
"The Horny Goat" <lcr...@home.ca> wrote in message
news:h4t1f2lu3m1offujk...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:34:01 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
> <wb8...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>>Nick Spalding <spal...@iol.ie> writes:
>>
>>
>>>When I was a signaler in the Army Cadets at school five was "fife" and,
>>>as
>>>you say, nine was "niner".
>>
>>As "nine" is hard to differentiate from "nein"...
>>
>>I heard a UL that SHAPE Brussels had a special phonetic alphabet
>>for abusing newbie English speakers:
>>
>> C as in chateau
>> K as in knowledge
>>etc..
>
> URL!
The US WWII Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog, Easy.....
was repleced by the NATO now generally international Alfa, Bravo, Cocoa,
Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India. Juliet, Kilo, Lima. Mike,
November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec ("K-bec"), Romeo, Sierra, Tango, Uniform,
Victor, Whisky, XRay, Yankee, Zulu...
TM "Please send two-fifty to salue my rembering them all!" Oliver
...and in order!
David Lesher
>>>I heard a UL that SHAPE Brussels had a special phonetic alphabet
>>>for abusing newbie English speakers:
>>>
>>> C as in chateau
>>> K as in knowledge
>>>etc..
>>
>> If you happen to find it online, please please please do share the
>> URL!
>The US WWII Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog, Easy.....
>was repleced by the NATO now generally international Alfa, Bravo, Cocoa,
>Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India. Juliet, Kilo, Lima. Mike,
>November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec ("K-bec"), Romeo, Sierra, Tango, Uniform,
>Victor, Whisky, XRay, Yankee, Zulu...
No No No... That's the ErrFicial phoneyetics.... NOT the ones used
to pick on folks...
Nick Spalding
on Sun, 27 Aug 2006 02:58:57 GMT:
>
> "The Horny Goat" <lcr...@home.ca> wrote in message
> news:h4t1f2lu3m1offujk...@4ax.com...
> > On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:34:01 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
> > <wb8...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Nick Spalding <spal...@iol.ie> writes:
> >>
> >>
> >>>When I was a signaler in the Army Cadets at school five was "fife" and,
> >>>as
> >>>you say, nine was "niner".
> >>
> >>As "nine" is hard to differentiate from "nein"...
> >>
> >>I heard a UL that SHAPE Brussels had a special phonetic alphabet
> >>for abusing newbie English speakers:
> >>
> >> C as in chateau
> >> K as in knowledge
> >>etc..
> >
> > If you happen to find it online, please please please do share the
> > URL!
>
> The US WWII Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog, Easy.....
... Fox, George, How, Item, Jig, King, Love, Mike, Nancy, Oboe, Peter,
Queenie, Roger, Sugar, Tare, Uncle, Victor, William, X-ray, Yoke, Zebra.
>
> was repleced by the NATO now generally international Alfa, Bravo, Cocoa,
> Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India. Juliet, Kilo, Lima. Mike,
> November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec ("K-bec"), Romeo, Sierra, Tango, Uniform,
> Victor, Whisky, XRay, Yankee, Zulu...
>
> TM "Please send two-fifty to salue my rembering them all!" Oliver
I learnt Able, Baker... in the cadets ca. 1947. About 15 years ago I got a
Marine VHF operator's licence and for that had to learn Alfa, Bravo... which
lasted just as long as necessary to get the ticket. I still use Able,
Baker... for everything, including VHF, and nobody seems to have any trouble
with it.
--
Nick Spalding
Ray
> The US WWII Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog, Easy.....
>
> was repleced by the NATO now generally international Alfa, Bravo,
> Cocoa, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India. Juliet, Kilo,
> Lima. Mike, November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec ("K-bec"), Romeo,
> Sierra, Tango, Uniform, Victor, Whisky, XRay, Yankee, Zulu...
When did Cocoa become Charlie?
A ham friend of mine once used "kay-beck" as a phonetic for K. I've
always preferred the pronunciation "kuh-beck".
--
Ray
(remove the Xs to reply)
Lee Ayrton
> "TOliver" <tolive...@Hot.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>>The US WWII Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog, Easy.....
>>
>>was repleced by the NATO now generally international Alfa, Bravo,
>>Cocoa, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India. Juliet, Kilo,
>>Lima. Mike, November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec ("K-bec"), Romeo,
>>Sierra, Tango, Uniform, Victor, Whisky, XRay, Yankee, Zulu...
>
> When did Cocoa become Charlie?
Sometime after Walter became Wendy?
Lee "And George became Christine" Ayrton
--
Bad command or file name. Bad! Go lay down.
David Scheidt
:Ray wrote:
:> "TOliver" <tolive...@Hot.rr.com> wrote:
:>
:>
:>>The US WWII Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog, Easy.....
:>>
:>>was repleced by the NATO now generally international Alfa, Bravo,
:>>Cocoa, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India. Juliet, Kilo,
:>>Lima. Mike, November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec ("K-bec"), Romeo,
:>>Sierra, Tango, Uniform, Victor, Whisky, XRay, Yankee, Zulu...
:>
:> When did Cocoa become Charlie?
:Sometime after Walter became Wendy?
What's the Moog synth got to do with it?
coj
>> We (3 ukians) were recently in Seattle and a waitress in a sushi bar
>> said "your accents are like music to my ears".
>>
>> Accents? We don't have no accents!
>
> I had an encounter only today in my store (.bc.ca) with a gentleman of
> the New Zealand persuasion virtually identical to this...
Did you say it about the NZ accent or did he tell you about yours ?
--
coj
Lon
...but before Jerry Dean became Liz
The Horny Goat
Ralph Jones
wrote:
>"TOliver" <tolive...@Hot.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> The US WWII Able, Baker, Charlie, Dog, Easy.....
>>
>> was repleced by the NATO now generally international Alfa, Bravo,
>> Cocoa, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India. Juliet, Kilo,
>> Lima. Mike, November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec ("K-bec"), Romeo,
>> Sierra, Tango, Uniform, Victor, Whisky, XRay, Yankee, Zulu...
>
>When did Cocoa become Charlie?
1956. Five letters changed:
Coca to Charlie
Metro to Mike
Nectar to November
Union to Uniform
Extra to Xray
>
>A ham friend of mine once used "kay-beck" as a phonetic for K. I've
>always preferred the pronunciation "kuh-beck".
Hams cheerfully use what they like...when I was hamming more or less
heavily in the 1980s as NY0F, I was generally addressed as Norway
Yankee Zero Florida.
rj
Jared
> When I was a signaler in the Army Cadets at school five was "fife" and, as
> you say, nine was "niner".
Can anybody tell me if there is any truth to the story I have been
told, that in military-type countdowns "five" is omitted and replaced
with a pause, to avoid confusion with "fire"?
Hugh Gibbons
"Gary G. Taylor" <knot...@knotdonavan.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 05:50:44 -0700, James wrote:
>
> > Some people consciously or subconsciously pick up accents, or fail to hold
> > their own.
>
> I've found myself doing that when talking to people -- and then doing my
> best to suppress it, lest I be seen as mocking the other individual.
Me too. I suspect that no matter where I went in the English-speaking
world, I would sound almost like a native within a year.
Ray
> On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 19:58:25 GMT, Ray wrote:
>>When did Cocoa become Charlie?
>
> 1956. Five letters changed:
>
> Coca to Charlie
> Metro to Mike
> Nectar to November
> Union to Uniform
> Extra to Xray
Tnx. I didn't know about that.
>>A ham friend of mine once used "kay-beck" as a phonetic for K. I've
>>always preferred the pronunciation "kuh-beck".
>
> Hams cheerfully use what they like...when I was hamming more or less
> heavily in the 1980s as NY0F, I was generally addressed as Norway
> Yankee Zero Florida.
I've generally used the ITU phonetics for my call on the rare
occasions when phonetics were needed, but I've heard others use more
euphonious alternatives. One I recall was "norway doorway" for "ND"; I
forget the rest of the callsign. Another was "mexico texaco" for "MT".
Hatunen
wrote:
This is common for hams; my call letters were W8LBU which I
always called "Long Baggy Underwear" and my QSL card showed long
baggy underwear hnging on a clothesline.
The use of "kay-bek" for "K" must have been confusing, since the
phonetic for "Q" used to be "Quebec"., pronounced "kay-bek"
internationally.
Lon
Never used a countdown when in the artillery, so if that is the alleged
venue, that wasn't it. And today, few artillerymen can count *up* to
ten [or even five] much less do it backwards.
As for missile firings, nope, the ones that have numbered countdowns
traditionally started counting seconds at 20 and counted from there out
loud. With the caveat that these were firings at a primarily research
range, not tactical firings where countdowns are about as common as
artillery firings.
TOliver
"Lon" <lon.s...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:FbOdnaJhDZI7AW7Z...@comcast.com...
> Jared proclaimed:
>
>> Nick Spalding wrote:
>>
>>
>>>When I was a signaler in the Army Cadets at school five was "fife" and,
>>>as
>>>you say, nine was "niner".
>>
>>
>> Can anybody tell me if there is any truth to the story I have been
>> told, that in military-type countdowns "five" is omitted and replaced
>> with a pause, to avoid confusion with "fire"?
>>
> Never used a countdown when in the artillery, so if that is the alleged
> venue, that wasn't it. And today, few artillerymen can count *up* to ten
> [or even five] much less do it backwards.
>
Five was always five in the USN, even over in the Med talking to furrin
avatars/aviators...
Especially when saying "Five by Five" to convey those rare moments when
VoiceComms were ideal.
TM "Yankee Whisky" Oliver
Ray
>>> On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 19:58:25 GMT, Ray wrote:
>>>>A ham friend of mine once used "kay-beck" as a phonetic for K.
>>>>I've always preferred the pronunciation "kuh-beck".
> The use of "kay-bek" for "K" must have been confusing, since the
> phonetic for "Q" used to be "Quebec"., pronounced "kay-bek"
> internationally.
In a moment of confusion, he used "kay-bek" for K because of the
initial "kay" sound. It was never repeated, thanks to the ensuing
laughter at his expense. "Quebec" is still the ITU phonetic for Q, as
far as I know.
Jared
> > venue, that wasn't it. And today, few artillerymen can count *up* to ten
> > [or even five] much less do it backwards.
> >
>
> Five was always five in the USN, even over in the Med talking to furrin
> avatars/aviators...
>
> Especially when saying "Five by Five" to convey those rare moments when
> VoiceComms were ideal.
That's a shame, but I guess it always sounded a bit cute. Counting
backwards while leaving a number out is probably one of those rub your
head/pat your belly things - too much thinking required to do it in a
stressful situation.
Jared "next you'll be telling me a big mess isn't really a Charlie
Foxtrot" Head
Skotto .com>
wrote:
>So this raises the question of why and how there is an accent that seems
>less "accenty" to most native speakers than, say, full-on Scots or drowning
>in Alabama, even to those Scots and Alabamans. I wonder how such an accent
>gets accepted as such. Is it "broadcast standard"? We don't have RP as
>such on this side of the pond.
I'm from Minneapolis where, you betcha, we consider ourselves
accentless. At least in the Mpls/St. Paul metro area. A couple of
network reporters and at least one anchorman hail from here. The
actor Robert Vaughn is from here and is a good example.
Out in the rural areas however, there exists a certain "Fargo" type
accent, which is most times exaggerated in the film or in midwest
stereo-types.
Howver, there was the indicent of my brother, while in a business
meeeting in Seattle years back, finished speaking and and had a
Seattlelite (sp?) point to him and say "Fargo !!".
--
Skotto
Madalch
> Out in the rural areas however, there exists a certain "Fargo" type
> accent, which is most times exaggerated in the film or in midwest
> stereo-types.
I'm glad to hear it was exaggerated- for some reason, I find that
accent particularly annoying...that entire movie was like fingernails
on a chalkboard to me.
The woodchipper scene was actually soothing, compared to hearing them
talk.