Re: Starving people refuse to eat food aid
John F. Eldredge
> In message <4afd26e0$0$1597$742e...@news.sonic.net>, Dimensional
> Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> writes
>>> I don't think that's how GM works. On the contrary, there are
>>>reports
>>> of GM herbicide resistance genes from crops - so that you can spray
>>> right on the crop to kill weeds - quickly showing up in the weeds,
>>> which are pretty good at doing that sort of thing.
>>
>>Got a cite for that? It seems much more likely to me that this would
>>simply be a plant equivalent of the evolution of antibiotic resistant
>>bacteria. The herbicide kills off the susceptible weeds, leaving only
>>the ones that were already resistant to reproduce.
>
> If you're growing glyphosate-resistant maize in Europe then you don't
> have to worry about hybridisation with weeds, and the consequent
> development of glyphosate-resistant weeds. On the other hand,
> glyphosate-resistant canola is capable of interbreeding with a variety
> of weedy crucifiers, so the transfer of glyphosate-resistance is a real
> concern.
>
> On the gripping hand, the problem in Canada with glyphosate-resistant
> mallows is the result of a case of selection of pre-existing tolerance.
If you have closely-related wild species, some hybridization may happen
(the dividing lines between species are sometimes a bit blurry). Another
possibility is that viruses may transport the genes in question between
species (this technique is used in some genetic engineering, so it seems
plausible that it may occasionally happen in the wild).
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
Robert Carnegie
> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:51:34 +0000, Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:
> > Traveler <dtra...@sonic.net> writes
> >>> I don't think that's how GM works. On the contrary, there are
> >>>reports
> >>> of GM herbicide resistance genes from crops - so that you can spray
> >>> right on the crop to kill weeds - quickly showing up in the weeds,
> >>> which are pretty good at doing that sort of thing.
>
> >>Got a cite for that? It seems much more likely to me that this would
> >>simply be a plant equivalent of the evolution of antibiotic resistant
> >>bacteria. The herbicide kills off the susceptible weeds, leaving only
> >>the ones that were already resistant to reproduce.
>
> > If you're growing glyphosate-resistant maize in Europe then you don't
> > have to worry about hybridisation with weeds, and the consequent
> > development of glyphosate-resistant weeds. On the other hand,
> > glyphosate-resistant canola is capable of interbreeding with a variety
> > of weedy crucifiers, so the transfer of glyphosate-resistance is a real
> > concern.
>
> > On the gripping hand, the problem in Canada with glyphosate-resistant
> > mallows is the result of a case of selection of pre-existing tolerance.
>
> If you have closely-related wild species, some hybridization may happen
> (the dividing lines between species are sometimes a bit blurry). Another
> possibility is that viruses may transport the genes in question between
> species (this technique is used in some genetic engineering, so it seems
> plausible that it may occasionally happen in the wild).
I think I've read - but you may know and remember, or else may be able
to correct me - that there's evidence, in the form of virus genes and
other-species genes in some higher species, which is best explained by
horizontal transfer by virus (or intelligent designers accidentally
using the wrong parts). Of course most DNA is not actually useful,
particularly if inserted into the "wrong" species, and will be
gradually scrambled by mutation and not "conserved". (But for a while
you can still tell what it used to be.) On the other hand, it may be
that a gene being useful and conserved in one species is the way to
define or tell which it "belongs" to.
Horizontal transfer somewhat undercuts Darwinian evolution, but also
pretty much smashes the bible idea of species reproducing "according
to their kind", if that interests you. Let bird flu infect primates
and voila, flying monkeys. :-)
Keith F. Lynch
> Another possibility is that viruses may transport the genes in
> question between species (this technique is used in some genetic
> engineering, so it seems plausible that it may occasionally happen
> in the wild).
It does, even between very unrelated species, according to Steve
Harris, a doctor and a very smart guy:
From: "Steve Harris" <sbha...@ix.RETICULATEDOBJECTcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.physics
Subject: Re: Quantum Biophysics and the kindergarten
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 20:42:49 -0700
"Margot S�ttmann" <MSuet...@t-online.de> wrote:
> Quantum bio-physics in living organisms
> 'puting the kindergarten in charge of nuclear power'
> www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/quantumbiology.htm
> December 2001
> One of the great concerns arising from the development of genetic
> engineering in modern science is that new organisms are being created
> when very little is still known about the functioning of biological
> systems at the molecular level. Making synthetic alterations to a
> complex natural system whose basic organisational patterns are not
> understood is considered by many to be the equivalent to leaving the
> development of new computer software to technicians who know next to
> nothing about computer programming.
COMMENT:
As opposed to letting it be done entirely at random by nature, which
is like letting computer software be developed by monkeys typing on
typewriters. Which is how it's worked for the last 3 billion years.
Organisms swap genes all the time. Some of the mechanisms for this
are related to "bacterial sex"-- some microbes have stolen so many
genes from other microbes that they can't be said to be any longer
the nearest genetic relatives to their own species. But it doesn't
end there. Retroviruses and probably a lot of other processes swap
DNA from organisms as diverse as insects and the plants they live on
(swollen thorn acacia and their associated ants share some genes).
Get used to it. It's happens in you, too. Your colon cells
doubtless have some genes from the bacteria that live in your colon.
Surprise. Genes jump, and it isn't only Monsanto that makes them
do it.
Ms. Suettman, why don't you take a Xanax pill? Why take your anxiety
neuroses out on good, hardworking respectable scientists? Isn't
there a nice university position in bioethics you can take, where
they'll pay you to say "we shouldn't do anything until we know
more", and otherwise pay no attention to you? And where you can
only cause limited damage (usually only to the students dumb enough
to take your classes?)
SBH
In other news, today is the 150th anniversary of the publication of
_On the Origin of Species_.
Dawkins said it best: "Living organisms had existed on earth, without
ever knowing why, for over three thousand million years before the
truth finally dawned on one of them. His name was Charles Darwin."
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.