Re: Starving people refuse to eat food aid
Louann Miller
news:7hsoyk...@verizon.net:
> I turned up the factoid that 1/4 of the residents of Manhattan own a
> car.
>
> You wouldn't by any chance happen to have the percentages in San
> Francisco and Boston ?
Purely in the interest of making trouble:
Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages (transport
goods along with you, go exactly to your destination on exactly your own
schedule, relative privacy and security) do we get to denounce them back
if their preferred method of public transportation is 'Taxi'?
Louann "at least I don't need a chauffeur" Miller
Keith F. Lynch
> Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages
> (transport goods along with you,
You can do that with almost any form of transporation.
> go exactly to your destination on exactly your own schedule,
True, but only by working as an unpaid driver. Passengers on buses
and trains can read or do what they will.
> relative privacy and security)
Security against what? Per passenger mile, cars are by far the most
dangerous form of transportation (except motorcycles).
> do we get to denounce them back if their preferred method of public
> transportation is 'Taxi'?
Taxis are far too expensive to be practical for most people.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
David Scheidt
:lat...@verizon.net (Richard D. Latham) wrote in
:news:7hsoyk...@verizon.net:
:> I turned up the factoid that 1/4 of the residents of Manhattan own a
:> car.
:>
:> You wouldn't by any chance happen to have the percentages in San
:> Francisco and Boston ?
:Purely in the interest of making trouble:
:Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages (transport
:goods along with you, go exactly to your destination on exactly your own
:schedule, relative privacy and security) do we get to denounce them back
What security? Per passenger mile, private automobiles have a truly
horrendous safety record.
:if their preferred method of public transportation is 'Taxi'?
Taxis certainly make sense. For instance, you don't have to store the
taxi when your not using it. You don't have to park it wehn you get
to where youre going.
--
sig 11
Hatunen
<k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages
>> (transport goods along with you,
>
>You can do that with almost any form of transporation.
>
>> go exactly to your destination on exactly your own schedule,
>
>True, but only by working as an unpaid driver. Passengers on buses
>and trains can read or do what they will.
>
>> relative privacy and security)
>
>Security against what? Per passenger mile, cars are by far the most
>dangerous form of transportation (except motorcycles).
>
>> do we get to denounce them back if their preferred method of public
>> transportation is 'Taxi'?
>
>Taxis are far too expensive to be practical for most people.
If you don't have the expense of car ownership, you have the
money for taxis.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Keith F. Lynch
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Taxis are far too expensive to be practical for most people.
> If you don't have the expense of car ownership, you have the
> money for taxis.
I know car ownership is expensive, what with fuel, maintenance,
insurance, registration, repairs, tolls, taxes, parking, etc.,
and of course the car itself, but if it really costs more than
taking all the trips you would have taken in your own car by taxi
instead, why does *anyone* have a car?
John F. Eldredge
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 02:45:08 +0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
> <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
>>Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages
>>> (transport goods along with you,
>>
>>You can do that with almost any form of transporation.
>>
>>> go exactly to your destination on exactly your own schedule,
>>
>>True, but only by working as an unpaid driver. Passengers on buses and
>>trains can read or do what they will.
>>
>>> relative privacy and security)
>>
>>Security against what? Per passenger mile, cars are by far the most
>>dangerous form of transportation (except motorcycles).
>>
>>> do we get to denounce them back if their preferred method of public
>>> transportation is 'Taxi'?
>>
>>Taxis are far too expensive to be practical for most people.
>
> If you don't have the expense of car ownership, you have the money for
> taxis.
If you are having to use taxis on a daily basis, you will likely be
spending far more money than you would be spending if you drove your own
car. I used to live six miles from work; on the few occasions that I had
to take a taxi to work, that six-mile ride cost me about $25.00 one way
(I was able to persuade a co-worker to give me a ride back home).
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
Hatunen
It might be well to point out that in San Francisco your parking
place or garage might be two blocks away. When I first got my
consulting job in San Francisco in 1985 my agency paid for my
wife and I to live in a hotel for up to a month. Parking was two
blocks up Sutter St from the hotel and cost us $17/day (which my
agency paid). Once we discovered the Metro, BART and the cable
cars we sometimes simply left the car in the garage much of the
time (back then you could still use the cable cars as local
transit rather than an E-ticket ride, so I walked up to
California St each morning and took the cable car to my office at
1 California St).
Hatunen
<k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
>> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>> Taxis are far too expensive to be practical for most people.
>
>> If you don't have the expense of car ownership, you have the
>> money for taxis.
>
>I know car ownership is expensive, what with fuel, maintenance,
>insurance, registration, repairs, tolls, taxes, parking, etc.,
>and of course the car itself, but if it really costs more than
>taking all the trips you would have taken in your own car by taxi
>instead, why does *anyone* have a car?
For all the reasons others have cited. Depending on where one
lives, one might consider it worth the cost. When I had my first
car I was in my late teens. I had a job with the local General
Motors division and commuted from my home about four miles across
town. One day I figured out how much the car was actually costing
me and gave serious thought to dumping it. But if I couldn't get
out in the country to lonely roads, then where would I have made
out with girls?
Wayne Throop
: I know car ownership is expensive, what with fuel, maintenance,
: insurance, registration, repairs, tolls, taxes, parking, etc.,
: and of course the car itself, but if it really costs more than
: taking all the trips you would have taken in your own car by taxi
: instead, why does *anyone* have a car?
If you can throw out your garbage, why would *anyone* buy and
use a garbage disposal? If you can cook all your meals on
a stovetop, why would anybody buy and use an oven, or even
worse, a microwave?
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
A STOVE? Why're you using that stupidly complex and expensive
invention, when wood's lying around for the taking and you can have a
fire just anywhere, instead of having to be in your home, using this
limited set of burners?
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
David DeLaney
>> Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages
>> (transport goods along with you,
>
>You can do that with almost any form of transporation.
If you aren't the owner/purchaser of said form, and if it isn't at least
as large as a car, transporting goods along with you becomes MUCH more
inconvenient.
>> go exactly to your destination on exactly your own schedule,
>
>True, but only by working as an unpaid driver. Passengers on buses
>and trains can read or do what they will.
And can go only where the bus or train does while so doing. 1D vs 2D is no
comparison.
>> do we get to denounce them back if their preferred method of public
>> transportation is 'Taxi'?
>
>Taxis are far too expensive to be practical for most people.
Dave "gee, then most of us must be hallucinating NYC" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Cheryl
What's wrong with taking a taxi? I don't have to park it or repair it or
even drive it, and for short distances the fee charges for all these
services is affordable. I used to consider taxis luxury items until I
started using them on occasions I had a real load of groceries to
transport. All the advantages of a private car and none of the
disadvantages!
--
Cheryl
Cheryl
> Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages
>> (transport goods along with you,
>
> You can do that with almost any form of transporation.
>
>> go exactly to your destination on exactly your own schedule,
>
> True, but only by working as an unpaid driver. Passengers on buses
> and trains can read or do what they will.
>
>> relative privacy and security)
>
> Security against what? Per passenger mile, cars are by far the most
> dangerous form of transportation (except motorcycles).
>
>> do we get to denounce them back if their preferred method of public
>> transportation is 'Taxi'?
>
> Taxis are far too expensive to be practical for most people.
Not for small distances. I just said in another point that I find them
convenient sometimes - once or twice a month, maybe. I've noticed too
that a lot of elderly people who don't or maybe never did drive use
taxis, and can afford to do so if they have their doctor, grocery etc
comparatively close. That's not too hard to manage in many urban
environments.
You can take a lot of taxis for the cost of a car payment. Far more than
I do.
--
Cheryl
Cheryl
I've often wondered why people have garbage disposals. They always seem
excessively nasty and unsanitary to me, with all that chopped-up garbage
going through it, not to mention what it would do to fingers or cutlery
stuck in it. I know, I know, you're not supposed to put your fingers or
cutlery in one, but it could happen by accident or if you were trying to
unclog the thing.
--
Cheryl
Mark Bestley
P;us you don't have to pay parking. I used to think a taxi was a luxury
for certain journeys from the rail station to home then a collegue gave
me a lift in his car and I found the car park fee was more than the taxi
fare and the driver made the same length of journey I did.
--
Mark
Louann Miller
@reader1.panix.com:
>:schedule, relative privacy and security) do we get to denounce them back
>
> What security? Per passenger mile, private automobiles have a truly
> horrendous safety record.
I was thinking of security against random violence while you're on the bus
or subway, waiting at a stop with strangers, etc. Maybe it's because I'm a
girl. But since 51%-ish of the population is a girl TOO, I suspect the
worry is quite widespread.
Louann Miller
> What's wrong with taking a taxi?
Nothing, unless you're using the Cars Make Baby Gaia Cry argument. You
aren't, but some do.
Cheryl
You must live in a very violent place. I must say I can't remember
worrying about random violence on public transportation, not even when I
lived in Toronto. I didn't worry when I visited other large cities
either, but I suppose in that case, my lack of worry could have been
attributed to ignorance of local conditions, so I should stick to
commenting on places I actually know pretty well. And while I haven't
called myself a girl in years, I'm certain I'm female.
I don't think age has much to do with worrying about random violence
anyway, because the most worried person I know is a female of about my
age in my own quiet little city who once expressed concern about my
habit of walking after dark - when it's dark at 5 PM, which is when I
and hundreds and hundreds of others were leaving the same building at
the same time, and I certainly wasn't the only walker. But she's an
extreme case.
--
Cheryl
cryptoguy
> Louann Miller <louan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages
> > (transport goods along with you,
>
> You can do that with almost any form of transporation.
>
> > go exactly to your destination on exactly your own schedule,
>
> True, but only by working as an unpaid driver. Passengers on buses
> and trains can read or do what they will.
>
> > relative privacy and security)
>
> Security against what? Per passenger mile, cars are by far the most
> dangerous form of transportation (except motorcycles).
>
> > do we get to denounce them back if their preferred method of public
> > transportation is 'Taxi'?
>
> Taxis are far too expensive to be practical for most people.
I guess that would explain why taxis are so unpopular that the supply
has to restricted in large cities, less they become the majoriy of the
traffic.
pt
cryptoguy
> In alt.folklore.urban Louann Miller <louan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> :lath...@verizon.net (Richard D. Latham) wrote in
Back when I lived in Manhattan, I used taxis occasionally if it was
late, I was in a tearing hurry to get somewhere outside of rush hour,
or I was carrying something that would fit in the cab, but was awkward
to carry on the subway (which didn't leave much).
They make a great deal more sense when you're moving more than one
person.
pt
cryptoguy
Well, the 'garbage' you're putting into it is until-just-now good food
or cooking byproducts that you've just decided not to eat, not semi
compost, such as the stuff that's been sitting in your garbage can for
a week.
It removes from said garbage can not only most things that can rot,
smell, leak, and attract animals, but also a not-inconsiderable volume
of material.
pt
Mike Ash
David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
> In alt.folklore.urban Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> :lat...@verizon.net (Richard D. Latham) wrote in
> :news:7hsoyk...@verizon.net:
>
> :> I turned up the factoid that 1/4 of the residents of Manhattan own a
> :> car.
> :>
> :> You wouldn't by any chance happen to have the percentages in San
> :> Francisco and Boston ?
>
> :Purely in the interest of making trouble:
>
> :Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages (transport
> :goods along with you, go exactly to your destination on exactly your own
> :schedule, relative privacy and security) do we get to denounce them back
>
> What security? Per passenger mile, private automobiles have a truly
> horrendous safety record.
Horrendous? Please. Private automobiles are about ten times more
dangerous per passenger mile than airliners, which are so incredibly
safe that every single major accident makes the national news.
Cars aren't terribly safe, but neither are they terribly unsafe.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
netcat
> Louann Miller wrote:
> > David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote in news:hg9jha$bfp$1
> > @reader1.panix.com:
> >
> >> :schedule, relative privacy and security) do we get to denounce them back
> >>
> >> What security? Per passenger mile, private automobiles have a truly
> >> horrendous safety record.
> >
> > I was thinking of security against random violence while you're on the bus
> > or subway, waiting at a stop with strangers, etc. Maybe it's because I'm a
> > girl. But since 51%-ish of the population is a girl TOO, I suspect the
> > worry is quite widespread.
>
> You must live in a very violent place. I must say I can't remember
> worrying about random violence on public transportation, not even when I
> lived in Toronto.
Not _on_ so much as while waiting to get on it.
The only time in my life I've ever been threatened with a weapon I
actually was standing in a bus stop.
rgds,
netcat
David Scheidt
:In article <hg9jha$bfp$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
: David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
:> In alt.folklore.urban Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
:> :lat...@verizon.net (Richard D. Latham) wrote in
:> :news:7hsoyk...@verizon.net:
:>
:> :> I turned up the factoid that 1/4 of the residents of Manhattan own a
:> :> car.
:> :>
:> :> You wouldn't by any chance happen to have the percentages in San
:> :> Francisco and Boston ?
:>
:> :Purely in the interest of making trouble:
:>
:> :Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages (transport
:> :goods along with you, go exactly to your destination on exactly your own
:> :schedule, relative privacy and security) do we get to denounce them back
:>
:> What security? Per passenger mile, private automobiles have a truly
:> horrendous safety record.
:Horrendous? Please. Private automobiles are about ten times more
:dangerous per passenger mile than airliners, which are so incredibly
:safe that every single major accident makes the national news.
More people are killed in car crashes each year than american soliders
killed in vietnam.
:Cars aren't terribly safe, but neither are they terribly unsafe.
Can't think of a less safe mode of transportation, actrually.
--
sig 105
Bill Snyder
<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
Motorcycles.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Cheryl
Well, I've certainly waited for public transportation frequently. I
don't think I've ever been threatened with a weapon anywhere, unless you
count the time someone tried to smack me with a blackboard eraser, and
that was in a classroom, and anyway wasn't an attack by a stranger.
It never really occurs to me that I might be attacked by a stranger at a
bus stop. Mostly, we ignore each other, but sometimes we make
conversation about the weather, the bus system or Christmas shopping.
The people whose assaults are reported in the local media never seem to
have been at bus stops either. In the street, yes, but they've usually
gotten to the street by leaving/being thrown out of a bar or party.
--
Cheryl
Michael Stemper
>Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages
>> (transport goods along with you,
>
>You can do that with almost any form of transporation.
For some very limited values of "goods". Taking groceries for a family
of four wouldn't work too well on a bicycle or a bus. Neither would a
new lawnmower or a few pieces of sheetrock.
>> go exactly to your destination on exactly your own schedule,
>
>True, but only by working as an unpaid driver. Passengers on buses
>and trains can read or do what they will.
And they can do this not only while actually in motion, but also at
the bus or train stops.
>> do we get to denounce them back if their preferred method of public
>> transportation is 'Taxi'?
>
>Taxis are far too expensive to be practical for most people.
Interestingly, I dated a woman in 1979 who didn't own a car. She took
the bus to and from work, and used taxis for everything else. She
wasn't fabulously wealthy, either -- she was the receptionist for a
utility's purchasing department. She said that it was less expensive
than owning and operating a car. She could have been right, for her
circumstances, too.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
>In alt.folklore.urban Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com> wrote:
>:In article <hg9jha$bfp$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>: David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>:> In alt.folklore.urban Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>:> :lat...@verizon.net (Richard D. Latham) wrote in
>:> :news:7hsoyk...@verizon.net:
>:>
>:> What security? Per passenger mile, private automobiles have a truly
>:> horrendous safety record.
>
>:Horrendous? Please. Private automobiles are about ten times more
>:dangerous per passenger mile than airliners, which are so incredibly
>:safe that every single major accident makes the national news.
>
>More people are killed in car crashes each year than american soliders
>killed in vietnam.
That's more people are killed _worldwide_ in car crashes each year
than Americans were killed in the Vietnam War. Which may be what you
meant, but I'm making it explicit for those Americans who assume It's
All About Us.
If you're only looking at the U.S., it's 38,000 auto deaths a year,
compared to 58,000 combat deaths in Vietnam.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
I'm selling my comic collection -- see http://www.watt-evans.com/comics.html
I'm serializing a novel at http://www.watt-evans.com/realmsoflight0.html
Charles Wm. Dimmick
I know not whereof you speak. If it will compost it goes in the compost
bin. This includes paper towels, tea bags, coffee filters and grounds,
orange peels, egg shells, cat hair, potato peels, etc.
We've had this compost bin for 15 years now, and it is still only half
full. Funny thing is, it was half full 12 years ago and seems to have
reached some sort of steady-state condition.
Charles
Richard Casady
<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
>:Cars aren't terribly safe, but neither are they terribly unsafe.
>
>Can't think of a less safe mode of transportation, actrually.
Ever hear of motorcycles? Ever hear of bicycles. Ever hear of skiis?
Casady
David Scheidt
:On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:03:13 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
:<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
:>:Cars aren't terribly safe, but neither are they terribly unsafe.
:>
:>Can't think of a less safe mode of transportation, actrually.
:Ever hear of motorcycles?
A class them as a suicide method, not of transportation.
:Ever hear of bicycles. Ever hear of skiis?
I'll require a cite for the bike, thanks.
:Casady
--
sig 106
David Scheidt
:In article <hg9hjk$na1$2...@reader1.panix.com>, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> writes:
:>Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
:>> Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages
:>> (transport goods along with you,
:>
:>You can do that with almost any form of transporation.
:For some very limited values of "goods". Taking groceries for a family
:of four wouldn't work too well on a bicycle or a bus. Neither would a
:new lawnmower or a few pieces of sheetrock.
Delivery services. And you can easily get a weeks groceries for a
family of four on a bike.
:>> go exactly to your destination on exactly your own schedule,
:>
:>True, but only by working as an unpaid driver. Passengers on buses
:>and trains can read or do what they will.
:And they can do this not only while actually in motion, but also at
:the bus or train stops.
:>> do we get to denounce them back if their preferred method of public
:>> transportation is 'Taxi'?
:>
:>Taxis are far too expensive to be practical for most people.
:Interestingly, I dated a woman in 1979 who didn't own a car. She took
:the bus to and from work, and used taxis for everything else. She
:wasn't fabulously wealthy, either -- she was the receptionist for a
:utility's purchasing department. She said that it was less expensive
:than owning and operating a car. She could have been right, for her
:circumstances, too.
:--
:Michael F. Stemper
:#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
:Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.
--
sig 57
Don Freeman
> Richard Casady <richar...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> :On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:03:13 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
> :<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> :>:Cars aren't terribly safe, but neither are they terribly unsafe.
> :>
> :>Can't think of a less safe mode of transportation, actrually.
>
> :Ever hear of motorcycles?
>
> A class them as a suicide method, not of transportation.
>
The legend being that emergency room personal refer to motorcycle riders
as "organ donors".
--
-Don
Dorothy J Heydt
David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
>In alt.folklore.urban Michael Stemper <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote:
>:In article <hg9hjk$na1$2...@reader1.panix.com>, "Keith F. Lynch"
><k...@KeithLynch.net> writes:
>:>Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>:>> Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages
>:>> (transport goods along with you,
>:>
>:>You can do that with almost any form of transporation.
>
>:For some very limited values of "goods". Taking groceries for a family
>:of four wouldn't work too well on a bicycle or a bus. Neither would a
>:new lawnmower or a few pieces of sheetrock.
>
>Delivery services. And you can easily get a weeks groceries for a
>family of four on a bike.
Are there still grocery stores that deliver? Or have any taken
the habit up again? I can still remember, in 1961 when I first
came to the University, a grocery in downtown Berkeley that
delivered. They took orders by phone, loaded the groceries into
carton boxes, and muscular young men drove them to their
destination and, as I suppose, carried them into the house. I
think these customers had charge accounts, too. An echo of a
bygone past. It didn't last much longer.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
erilar
Well, I have a wood stove, too. I roasted a bratwurst in it as part of
my lunch today.
--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist
James
> In article <hgbc74$eb...@reader1.panix.com>,
> David Scheidt <dsche...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >In alt.folklore.urban Michael Stemper <mstem...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote:
> >:In article <hg9hjk$na...@reader1.panix.com>, "Keith F. Lynch"
> ><k...@KeithLynch.net> writes:
> >:>Louann Miller <louan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >:>> Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages
> >:>> (transport goods along with you,
> >:>
> >:>You can do that with almost any form of transporation.
>
> >:For some very limited values of "goods". Taking groceries for a family
> >:of four wouldn't work too well on a bicycle or a bus. Neither would a
> >:new lawnmower or a few pieces of sheetrock.
>
> >Delivery services. And you can easily get a weeks groceries for a
> >family of four on a bike.
>
> Are there still grocery stores that deliver? Or have any taken
> the habit up again? I can still remember, in 1961 when I first
> came to the University, a grocery in downtown Berkeley that
> delivered. They took orders by phone, loaded the groceries into
> carton boxes, and muscular young men drove them to their
> destination and, as I suppose, carried them into the house. I
> think these customers had charge accounts, too. An echo of a
> bygone past. It didn't last much longer.
During the internet boom, a Canadian startup called GroceryGateway
began offering a service to order on line and have groceries delivered
to your door. They did offer the services in major cities, having one
central warehouse per major center. They struggled to find the volume.
They were bought out by a major chain, eliminated the warehouse, and
work with the warehouse of the chain. I could order right now if I
wanted, for delivery tomorrow am.
Of course how many people without cars get their groceries home is by
taxi. Growing up my local store had a phone that was a direct line to
a taxi dispatcher. You can take public transport there, and taxi home.
As for drywall etc., Home depot and its competitors in Canada offer a
rental service. 90 mins with a full size van for $20. I used it
myself to deliver a bathtub and other supplies that wouldn't fit in my
minivan.
While in my current circumstance I need a car, I can wistfully
remember getting along just fine without one in the big city. It
especially makes sense in a large city as insurance costs are much
higher there, as well as the wear and tear of stop and go traffic
increasing gas and maintenance costs.
James
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> In alt.folklore.urban Michael Stemper <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote:
> :In article <hg9hjk$na1$2...@reader1.panix.com>, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> writes:
> :>Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> :>> Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages
> :>> (transport goods along with you,
> :>
> :>You can do that with almost any form of transporation.
>
> :For some very limited values of "goods". Taking groceries for a family
> :of four wouldn't work too well on a bicycle or a bus. Neither would a
> :new lawnmower or a few pieces of sheetrock.
>
> Delivery services. And you can easily get a weeks groceries for a
> family of four on a bike.
>
"Boss! De Plane! De Plane!"
"Welcome, Mr. Scheidt, to Fantasy Island."
I suppose you might be able to argue you're right, if you put everyone
on the identical, non-varying diet, and count nothing other than food in
"groceries", but I'd have a hard time carrying my family's weekly supply
of PAPER TOWELS on a bike (it's not the weight, it's the space), let
alone all the other stuff.
Leaving aside that I wouldn't ride a bike in traffic around here, and
it'd be useless at least 3 months to 4 months of the year.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
But still, you're using all that metal when you could just have a
simple fire! No one needs more than that!
Wayne Throop
: Are there still grocery stores that deliver? Or have any taken
: the habit up again? I can still remember, in 1961 when I first
: came to the University, a grocery in downtown Berkeley that
: delivered. They took orders by phone, loaded the groceries into
: carton boxes, and muscular young men drove them to their
: destination and, as I suppose, carried them into the house. I
: think these customers had charge accounts, too. An echo of a
: bygone past. It didn't last much longer.
Part of the dotcom bubble in 2000-ish, there were grocery stores
that took orders via web and delivered. And I think it's been
attempted again since then, maybe about 2006 or thereabouts.
They uniformly fail, or at least, so far they have.
That's from memory; I don't have any cites.
However, I imagine there are separate delivery/shopping services
that one could use, just not at the price-point the above attempts
attempted to hit.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Wayne Throop
::::: taken in your own car by taxi instead, why does *anyone* have a car?
:::: If you can cook all your meals on a stovetop, why would anybody buy
:::: and use an oven, or even worse, a microwave?
::: A STOVE? Why're you using that stupidly complex and expensive
::: invention, when wood's lying around for the taking and you can have
::: a fire just anywhere
:: Well, I have a wood stove, too.
:: I roasted a bratwurst in it as part of my lunch today.
: But still, you're using all that metal when you could just have a
: simple fire! No one needs more than that!
Plus, the inefficiency of everybody gathering their own wood and going to
the trouble and expense of lighting their own fires. Better they should
catch up on their reading while specialists do the wood-wrangling and
build a community bonfire for the whole neighborhood, and everybody cook
at the same time. Since you can cook communally for less money/effort,
why would anybody want to cook for themselves on their own schedule?
Michael Stemper
>In alt.folklore.urban Michael Stemper <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote:
>:In article <hg9hjk$na1$2...@reader1.panix.com>, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> writes:
>:>Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>:>> Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages
>:>> (transport goods along with you,
>:>
>:>You can do that with almost any form of transporation.
>
>:For some very limited values of "goods". Taking groceries for a family
>:of four wouldn't work too well on a bicycle or a bus. Neither would a
>:new lawnmower or a few pieces of sheetrock.
>
>Delivery services.
That does not qualify as "transport goods along with you ... almost
any form of transportation", which was Keith's claim. That is pretty
much the *opposite* of "transporting with you".
> And you can easily get a weeks groceries for a
>family of four on a bike.
Excuse me? I'm single and my minimum is two brown paper bags full. That
is bare minimum, and it is more often three, and sometimes peaks at
five. That's for a single person. When I'm waiting behind someone who's
shopping for a family, my mind is boggled by the quantity (not to mention
cost) of what they buy.
>--
>sig 57
That's catchy. Can I quote it?
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
A preposition is something that you should never end a sentence with.
Warren Oates
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
> Interestingly, I dated a woman in 1979 who didn't own a car. She took
> the bus to and from work, and used taxis for everything else. She
> wasn't fabulously wealthy, either -- she was the receptionist for a
> utility's purchasing department. She said that it was less expensive
> than owning and operating a car. She could have been right, for her
> circumstances, too.
I lived in Hongkong in the mid-eighties, and taxis were so cheap it was
ridiculous. The drop fee was about 50 cents (US), and the per-mile
charge was very low. It never occurred to anyone not to take a cab. It
was always good, though, to be able to say the name of your destination
in some sort of mangled Cantonese. I worked for a film company, and
they'd have a fairly big shoot going on, somewhere reasonably distant,
and instead of renting a van and two cars (say), they'd call 4 taxis and
it would cost them nothing.
Of course, the trams in Hongkong only cost 10 _Hongkong_ cents to ride.
You had to have the little coin though. Local phone calls were free too;
you wanted to make a call, you walked into a restaurant or a department
store and there'd be a phone sitting there for you to use.
--
Very old woody beets will never cook tender.
-- Fannie Farmer
Michael Stemper
You're not proposing that people be required to sign up for a communal
fire, are you? Even if they're decided to opt out and fend for themselves
because the fires available aren't at their price point?
ObSFW: The Kitchens in _The Caves of Steel_
trag
> Are there still grocery stores that deliver? Or have any taken
> the habit up again? I can still remember, in 1961 when I first
> came to the University, a grocery in downtown Berkeley that
> delivered.
The Randalls in Austin (I believe they're a Safeway affiliate) had a
service called PeaPod which delivered groceries for a while. I
believe it started in the late 90s some time. I'm not sure when it
ended. I simply noticed one day that I hadn't heard their ad on the
radio in a long time. Probably early 2000s.
Wayne Throop
: You're not proposing that people be required to sign up for a communal
: fire, are you? Even if they're decided to opt out and fend for themselves
: because the fires available aren't at their price point?
No no, just that anybody who opts out and owns their own fire
is a big stupid-head, and should be sneered at. Private fire
ownership just doesn't add up. Do the numbers and you'll see.
Default User
> Part of the dotcom bubble in 2000-ish, there were grocery stores
> that took orders via web and delivered. And I think it's been
> attempted again since then, maybe about 2006 or thereabouts.
> They uniformly fail, or at least, so far they have.
There's one chain in St. Louis that's had it for many years.
<http://www.schnucks.com/express/help/tutorial.html>
Brian
--
Day 317 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> Are there still grocery stores that deliver? Or have any taken
> the habit up again? I can still remember, in 1961 when I first
> came to the University, a grocery in downtown Berkeley that
> delivered. They took orders by phone, loaded the groceries into
> carton boxes, and muscular young men drove them to their
> destination and, as I suppose, carried them into the house. I
> think these customers had charge accounts, too. An echo of a
> bygone past. It didn't last much longer.
>
Here in New England Stop-n-Shop has Peapod service:
Dimensional Traveler
because there have been several assaults (with knives in some cases) on
the buses recently. The scandal comes from the fact that as a result
the public learned that a large percentage of the security cameras on
the buses don't work.
--
"Dude. They've gone fractal."
Dorothy J Heydt
Which everyone wanted to get out of, because having one's own
kitchen was a mark of status.
David Goldfarb
trag <tr...@io.com> wrote:
>On Dec 16, 2:09 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>> Are there still grocery stores that deliver? Or have any taken
>> the habit up again? I can still remember, in 1961 when I first
>> came to the University, a grocery in downtown Berkeley that
>> delivered.
>
>The Randalls in Austin (I believe they're a Safeway affiliate) had a
>service called PeaPod which delivered groceries for a while.
The Rice Epicurean Markets in Houston deliver -- at least, when I go
to the one near where I live, I often see a van there advertising
the service. Sometimes I see the vans driving down the street.
It says they have web ordering at ricedelivers.com. I've never
tried it myself.
--
David Goldfarb |"Hey, mister! Are you about to drag our brother off
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | to a bleak nether realm of despair where the
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | future is nothing but an endless sea of anguish
| and horrible misery?"
| "Yah."
|"We wanna go tooooo!" -- Animaniacs
David Goldfarb
Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>I know, I know, you're not supposed to put your fingers or
>cutlery in one, but it could happen by accident or if you were trying to
>unclog the thing.
If I were putting something in my garbage disposal to attempt to unclog
it, I'd disconnect the power first. Seems like an obvious precaution.
--
David Goldfarb |"I suppose an idiot plot is better than
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | no plot at all."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Katie Schwarz
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> In article <7orvvoF...@mid.individual.net>,
> Cheryl <cper...@mun.ca> wrote:
>> I know, I know, you're not supposed to put your fingers or
>> cutlery in one, but it could happen by accident or if you were trying to
>> unclog the thing.
>
> If I were putting something in my garbage disposal to attempt to unclog
> it, I'd disconnect the power first. Seems like an obvious precaution.
>
I don't see ANY simple way to do that on mine. It's wired to a switch.
I can turn the switch off, but if I want to disconnect the power, I'd
have to go down and throw a breaker that would I think kill the entire
kitchen.
erilar
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> if I want to disconnect the power, I'd
> have to go down and throw a breaker that would I think kill the entire
> kitchen.
I did that when I was repairing something on my stove once. I have a
major respect for electricity. So did my brother. We both, at different
times when very young, were told by my father who was supposedly fixing
a lamp in my case: "hold this while I plug it in". It was not fixed.
erilar
All that metal makes the smoke go up the chimney instead of my nose and
keeps the fire from burning things I prefer unburned.
Don Freeman
Unless it was some sort of jury-rigged setup it will have an electrical
socket under the sink that the disposal plugs into.
--
-Don
David DeLaney
>Richard Casady <richar...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>:On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:03:13 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
>:<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
>:>:Cars aren't terribly safe, but neither are they terribly unsafe.
>:>
>:>Can't think of a less safe mode of transportation, actrually.
>:Ever hear of bicycles. Ever hear of skiis?
>
>I'll require a cite for the bike, thanks.
There've been several threads on Making Light in the last year or two about
bicycling as transportation (helped by Abi, one of the moderators, living
in I think the Netherlands), and a recurring feature of them is how dangerous
it is, in the USA, to try to do any sort of road-sharing with automobile
drivers if you're on a bike. Some of the car drivers apparently take active
measures to try to damage or remove bicyclists... (This despite the fact that
bikes that are obeying the rules of the road are perfectly legal denizens of
said roads and the automobile drivers, being in possession of a GREAT deal
more momentum on average, need to be much more careful of bicyclists than
vice versa.)
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Richard Casady
<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
>Delivery services. And you can easily get a weeks groceries for a
>family of four on a bike.
Sure. I used to drink about three cases of beer per week. The bike
would handle one days groceries for one person. A cab would carry the
bike and a weeks groceries. So half the trip is cheap.
Casady
Keith F. Lynch
> David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
>> Richard Casady <richar...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> Can't think of a less safe mode of transportation, actrually.
>>> Ever hear of bicycles. Ever hear of skiis?
>> I'll require a cite for the bike, thanks.
As will I. My understanding is that per passenger mile, bicycles,
unlike motorcycles, are safer than cars.
> There've been several threads on Making Light in the last year or
> two about bicycling as transportation (helped by Abi, one of the
> moderators, living in I think the Netherlands), and a recurring
> feature of them is how dangerous it is, in the USA, to try to do any
> sort of road-sharing with automobile drivers if you're on a bike.
That's not a cite.
Forester's _Effective Cycling_ has numerous cites of evidence that
cycling on roads is much safer than on sidewalks or bike trails, that
larger roads are safer, that rush hour is the safest time to ride, and
that bike lanes make a road less safe for cycling. (I'll concede that
none of these are cites that cycling is safer than driving.)
> Some of the car drivers apparently take active measures to try to
> damage or remove bicyclists...
Very, very few motorists are homicidal maniacs. The realistic risk is
careless motorists, not malicious ones.
> (This despite the fact that bikes that are obeying the rules of the
> road are perfectly legal denizens of said roads and the automobile
> drivers, being in possession of a GREAT deal more momentum on
> average, need to be much more careful of bicyclists than vice versa.)
The fact that bikes are perfectly legal on roads isn't relevant to
whether drivers should "take active measures to try to damage or
remove bicyclists." If a motorist thinks bikes aren't legal, he
should call the police, not take direct action.
Everyone knows that exceeding the speed limit is illegal, but
motorists almost never take active measures to try to damage or
remove speeders. Police would rightly take a dim view if they did.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Keith F. Lynch
> I have a major respect for electricity.
Me too. It was, until recently, the way people were executed here
in Virginia. AC electricity was originally adopted as a means of
execution at the urging of Thomas Edison, who wanted to emphasize how
dangerous it was, so as to encourage demand for the DC electricity he
was promoting.
Of course DC is almost as dangerous as AC. Electric chairs would work
just fine with DC.
William December Starr
"Charles Wm. Dimmick" <cdim...@snet.net> said:
> I know not whereof you speak. If it will compost it goes in the
> compost bin. This includes paper towels, tea bags, coffee filters
> and grounds, orange peels, egg shells, cat hair, potato peels,
> etc.
Does cat hair -- mammalian fur, in general -- compost? Intuitively,
I see it just sitting there inertly until it finally gets eaten by
the swollen red Sun.
-- wds
Cryptoengineer
> In article <hgb8og$3u...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Charles Wm. Dimmick" <cdimm...@snet.net> said:
>
> > I know not whereof you speak. If it will compost it goes in the
> > compost bin. This includes paper towels, tea bags, coffee filters
> > and grounds, orange peels, egg shells, cat hair, potato peels,
> > etc.
>
> Does cat hair -- mammalian fur, in general -- compost? Intuitively,
> I see it just sitting there inertly until it finally gets eaten by
> the swollen red Sun.
I'm under the impression that it lasts longer than flesh, but not by
that much. Any body buried in the dirt turns to a skeleton without
hair eventually.
pt
Keith F. Lynch
> Does cat hair -- mammalian fur, in general -- compost? Intuitively,
> I see it just sitting there inertly until it finally gets eaten by
> the swollen red Sun.
If so, after half a million millennia of mammals, we'd be miles deep
in fur by now. So I conclude that it does decay.
Keith F. Lynch
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>> Are there still grocery stores that deliver? Or have any taken the
>> habit up again? I can still remember, in 1961 when I first came to
>> the University, a grocery in downtown Berkeley that delivered.
Thanks to the Internet, everything old is new again.
> The Randalls in Austin (I believe they're a Safeway affiliate) had
> a service called PeaPod which delivered groceries for a while. I
> believe it started in the late 90s some time. I'm not sure when it
> ended. I simply noticed one day that I hadn't heard their ad on the
> radio in a long time. Probably early 2000s.
They still exist here in Virginia. My mother has made use of them
within the past year. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peapod
Keith F. Lynch
> Plus, the inefficiency of everybody gathering their own wood and
> going to the trouble and expense of lighting their own fires.
> Better they should catch up on their reading while specialists do
> the wood-wrangling and build a community bonfire for the whole
> neighborhood, and everybody cook at the same time. Since you can
> cook communally for less money/effort, why would anybody want to
> cook for themselves on their own schedule?
Well, eating out is quite popular.
Speaking of which, an analogy I've used is that bringing your car into
a city is like bringing your oven to a restaurant.
Keith F. Lynch
> ... but I'd have a hard time carrying my family's weekly supply of
> PAPER TOWELS on a bike (it's not the weight, it's the space), let
> alone all the other stuff.
What does your family *do* with all those paper towels? A single roll
lasts me two or three months.
Keith F. Lynch
> David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
>> Can't think of a less safe mode of transportation, actrually.
> Ever hear of motorcycles? Ever hear of bicycles. Ever hear
> of skiis?
I'm skeptical that bicycling or cross-country skiing are more
dangerous than driving. Downhill skiing may be, but that's not
really a mode of transportation.
Strobe
wrote:
>cryptoguy wrote:
>> On Dec 16, 6:52 am, Cheryl <cperk...@mun.ca> wrote:
>>> I've often wondered why people have garbage disposals. They always seem
>>> excessively nasty and unsanitary to me, with all that chopped-up garbage
>>> going through it, not to mention what it would do to fingers or cutlery
>>> stuck in it. I know, I know, you're not supposed to put your fingers or
>>> cutlery in one, but it could happen by accident or if you were trying to
>>> unclog the thing.
>>
>> Well, the 'garbage' you're putting into it is until-just-now good food
>> or cooking byproducts that you've just decided not to eat, not semi
>> compost, such as the stuff that's been sitting in your garbage can for
>> a week.
>>
>> It removes from said garbage can not only most things that can rot,
>> smell, leak, and attract animals, but also a not-inconsiderable volume
>> of material.
>
>I know not whereof you speak. If it will compost it goes in the compost
>bin. This includes paper towels, tea bags, coffee filters and grounds,
>orange peels, egg shells, cat hair, potato peels, etc.
>
>We've had this compost bin for 15 years now, and it is still only half
>full. Funny thing is, it was half full 12 years ago and seems to have
>reached some sort of steady-state condition.
That's a funny thing about compost - you're actually _supposed_ to
remove some of it from time to time.
Keith F. Lynch
> Taking groceries for a family of four wouldn't work too well on a
> bicycle or a bus.
That depends on how often you shop.
> Neither would a new lawnmower or a few pieces of sheetrock.
Lawnmowers have wheels -- you can easily push them home from the
store. I'll grant that sheetrock could be a problem. But with the
aid of a hand truck, I've carried a bookcase on Metrorail.
Dorothy J Heydt
Yes, it does. I put both my own hair combings and the cats'
fluffs, dust bunnies, and hairballs into the compost. Great
source of protein.
Dorothy J Heydt
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>Speaking of which, an analogy I've used is that bringing your car into
>a city is like bringing your oven to a restaurant.
Depends on the city, I should think, and how good, bad, or
godawful its supply of public transportation is. And just where
in the city you want to go.
People keep mentioning taxis. Perhaps my experience with taxis
-- in Berkeley, in the 1990s -- is even more atypical than I
suspect. I was working for a cantankerous professor who liked to
fly off to conferences in distant countries, but didn't want to
drive to the airport and leave his car sitting in the parking lot
there for days or weeks. He therefore found a company -- it
described itself as "limousine" rather than "taxi" -- to drive
him from office to airport and eventually, from airport to his
home. *I* had to deal with getting the taxi^H^H^H^Hlimousine to
the vicinity of the office on time, and I had endless grief.
The drivers were all recent immigrants from somewhere in the
Third World. They were all very earnest, hard-working men,
determined to make a living in this strange new country, the kind
of people the US was built on. But ...
* They didn't know their way around the city, and particularly,
they didn't know how to find any given place on the perimeter of
the University.
* They didn't understand enough English for me to be able to tell
them and have them follow my instructions reliably.
* The dispatcher had been around long enough to know his way around
the city and the University, but ... he and the drivers spoke
different Third World languages, so he couldn't make it clear to
them either.
So there would be telephone calls back and forth, back and forth,
while the professor fumed and raged and snarled at *me* because
the driver wasn't here yet and he could miss his plane.
Once the driver did arrive, everything was jake, because he did
know "airport" and now to get there.
The result is that now I'd rather walk (if it's within walking
distance) or just not go, rather than entrust myself to any taxi.
Even though I suspect most other taxi drivers are better able to
find their way around than the ones I had to deal with. They
could hardly be worse.
Wayne Throop
:: If it will compost it goes in the compost bin. [...]
:: We've had this compost bin for 15 years now, and it is still only
:: half full. Funny thing is, it was half full 12 years ago and seems
:: to have reached some sort of steady-state condition.
: Strobe <Str...@nyc.Beep!Beep!.com>
: That's a funny thing about compost - you're actually _supposed_ to
: remove some of it from time to time.
I've lived with a compost bin (until I went to college)
and I've lived with garbage disposals (eg, now), and all in all,
I'd just as soon have a garbage disposal.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Kurt Busiek
> In article <hgc90n$ppf$9...@reader1.panix.com>,
> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
>> Speaking of which, an analogy I've used is that bringing your car into
>> a city is like bringing your oven to a restaurant.
>
> Depends on the city, I should think, and how good, bad, or
> godawful its supply of public transportation is. And just where
> in the city you want to go.
>
> People keep mentioning taxis. Perhaps my experience with taxis
> -- in Berkeley, in the 1990s -- is even more atypical than I
> suspect. I was working for a cantankerous professor who liked to
> fly off to conferences in distant countries, but didn't want to
> drive to the airport and leave his car sitting in the parking lot
> there for days or weeks. He therefore found a company -- it
> described itself as "limousine" rather than "taxi" -- to drive
> him from office to airport and eventually, from airport to his
> home. *I* had to deal with getting the taxi^H^H^H^Hlimousine to
> the vicinity of the office on time, and I had endless grief.
That's not so much an indictment of taxis in general as that one
particular car service the professor found.
When my family and I are going to be out of town for a trip, it's
usually cheaper to arrange a limo to drop us at the airport and pick us
up rather than pay parking fees, so we do that. The "limo" is usually
a Lincoln Town Car, but once, due to no other cars being available, we
were picked up in a white stretch limo with fancy upholstery and a full
bar, which the girls loved (they did not get to partake of the full
bar, though). We've never had any trouble with the drivers not
speaking English or not knowing how to get here.
In Los Angeles, when I've been brought down by some company or another
to talk movie/TV stuff, they ferry me around by car service and it's a
real treat; knowledgable, skilful drivers and a very comfortable ride.
I've also used car services in New York and Montreal, and gotten good
service.
So it wasn't that car services are inherently bad, it's that the
professor picked a stinker.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
Dorothy J Heydt
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> ... but I'd have a hard time carrying my family's weekly supply of
>> PAPER TOWELS on a bike (it's not the weight, it's the space), let
>> alone all the other stuff.
>
>What does your family *do* with all those paper towels? A single roll
>lasts me two or three months.
There's only one of you. Also, you cook (properly so described)
a lot less.
Dorothy J Heydt
>On 2009-12-16 20:03:12 -0800, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
>
>> In article <hgc90n$ppf$9...@reader1.panix.com>,
>> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Speaking of which, an analogy I've used is that bringing your car into
>>> a city is like bringing your oven to a restaurant.
>>
>> Depends on the city, I should think, and how good, bad, or
>> godawful its supply of public transportation is. And just where
>> in the city you want to go.
>>
>> People keep mentioning taxis. Perhaps my experience with taxis
>> -- in Berkeley, in the 1990s -- is even more atypical than I
>> suspect. I was working for a cantankerous professor who liked to
>> fly off to conferences in distant countries, but didn't want to
>> drive to the airport and leave his car sitting in the parking lot
>> there for days or weeks. He therefore found a company -- it
>> described itself as "limousine" rather than "taxi" -- to drive
>> him from office to airport and eventually, from airport to his
>> home. *I* had to deal with getting the taxi^H^H^H^Hlimousine to
>> the vicinity of the office on time, and I had endless grief.
>
>That's not so much an indictment of taxis in general as that one
>particular car service the professor found.
Could be. Having found it, however, he wasn't about to switch.
It didn't bother *him*. When he feared the taxi was going to be
late, he bugged *me*. It was also I that had to deal with the
linguistically unskilled drivers. It came to the same thing in
the end.
The professor died a couple of years ago. I wasn't working for
him any more by then. I sha'n't miss him.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
What? but NATURALLY no one would want to cook things INSIDE!
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
No, this was an installed hard-wired setup. I've had three different
houses with garbage disposals, and NONE of them were plugged into
anything; they were all directly wired and controlled by an off-on
switch just like a light switch.
David DeLaney
>> David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
>>> I'll require a cite for the bike, thanks.
>
>As will I. My understanding is that per passenger mile, bicycles,
>unlike motorcycles, are safer than cars.
>
>> There've been several threads on Making Light in the last year or
>> two about bicycling as transportation (helped by Abi, one of the
>> moderators, living in I think the Netherlands), and a recurring
>> feature of them is how dangerous it is, in the USA, to try to do any
>> sort of road-sharing with automobile drivers if you're on a bike.
>
>That's not a cite.
True; it's just massive anecdotal first-person evidence, from cyclists.
>Forester's _Effective Cycling_ has numerous cites of evidence that
>cycling on roads is much safer than on sidewalks or bike trails, that
>larger roads are safer, that rush hour is the safest time to ride, and
>that bike lanes make a road less safe for cycling. (I'll concede that
>none of these are cites that cycling is safer than driving.)
>
>> Some of the car drivers apparently take active measures to try to
>> damage or remove bicyclists...
>
>Very, very few motorists are homicidal maniacs. The realistic risk is
>careless motorists, not malicious ones.
Exactly. A great many auto-motorists are careless, and for some of them it ends
up being expressed violently, even homicidally in cases. They are watching for
other cars, vans, trucks, pickups, etc.; they are less disposed to be keeping
the appropriate distance from something as small as a bicycle. (Also applicable
to motorcycles, from what I hear.)
>> (This despite the fact that bikes that are obeying the rules of the
>> road are perfectly legal denizens of said roads and the automobile
>> drivers, being in possession of a GREAT deal more momentum on
>> average, need to be much more careful of bicyclists than vice versa.)
>
>The fact that bikes are perfectly legal on roads isn't relevant to
>whether drivers should "take active measures to try to damage or
>remove bicyclists." If a motorist thinks bikes aren't legal, he
>should call the police, not take direct action.
If a motorist thinks bikes shouldn't'a hadn't'a oughta be drivin' in the lanes
that God laid out specifically for automobile traffic, and is of the subclass
of people who have trouble treating other people as fully belonging to the
"people" class? Quite a lot of different actions can get taken that rationally-
thinking clear-minded people, or even you or I, would never consider. It
doesn't take every car on the road being careless to have Bad Outcomes; it
doesn't even take 1% of them.
>Everyone knows that exceeding the speed limit is illegal, but
>motorists almost never take active measures to try to damage or
>remove speeders. Police would rightly take a dim view if they did.
...Someone has never been stuck on a two-lane road behind a Hat going 44 miles
per hour. Or in a freeway lane behind someone who has decided to Not Pass the
next lane of traffic. Has someone. No, I can say for sure that someone hasn't,
because someone can't even drive.
"Almost never" isn't the right term. "Not very often" works, but it can SEEM
like a lot more often than that because of the frustration factor - we
remember the idiot other drivers, not the ones that kept things running
smoothly.
Mike Ash
David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
> In alt.folklore.urban Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com> wrote:
> :In article <hg9jha$bfp$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> : David Scheidt <dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> :> In alt.folklore.urban Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> :> :lat...@verizon.net (Richard D. Latham) wrote in
> :> :news:7hsoyk...@verizon.net:
> :>
> :> :> I turned up the factoid that 1/4 of the residents of Manhattan own a
> :> :> car.
> :> :>
> :> :> You wouldn't by any chance happen to have the percentages in San
> :> :> Francisco and Boston ?
> :>
> :> :Purely in the interest of making trouble:
> :>
> :> :Among the subset of non-car-owners who belittle its advantages (transport
> :> :goods along with you, go exactly to your destination on exactly your own
> :> :schedule, relative privacy and security) do we get to denounce them back
> :>
> :> What security? Per passenger mile, private automobiles have a truly
> :> horrendous safety record.
>
> :Horrendous? Please. Private automobiles are about ten times more
> :dangerous per passenger mile than airliners, which are so incredibly
> :safe that every single major accident makes the national news.
>
> More people are killed in car crashes each year than american soliders
> killed in vietnam.
So what? That's a completely nonsensical thing to say. More people are
killed in car crashes each year than were ever killed by electric chairs
(I'll bet), does that mean cars are more dangerous than electric chairs?
All this number tells you is that the risk of driving a car *multiplied
by the number of people doing it* exceeds the risk of being an American
in Vietnam multiplied by the number of people who did that. Because of
the enormous disparity between the number of people who did each thing,
the comparison tells you zilch about relative risk.
> :Cars aren't terribly safe, but neither are they terribly unsafe.
>
> Can't think of a less safe mode of transportation, actrually.
Then you're not trying even remotely hard to come up with any.
Motorcycles are an obvious example. Far more dangerous than cars.
How about walking? The US automobile fatality rate is about 1 per 100
million passenger-miles. To walk 100 million miles, assuming you could
sustain 50 miles per day (which you couldn't), would take about 5,000
years, and you'd die long before that. Walking is far more dangerous
than driving.
Light aircraft are probably more dangerous as well, although numbers are
hard to come by there. (The statistics that do exist tend to be per
hour, rather than per mile, and the variation in both speeds and safety
is large.)
Bicycles may be more dangerous as well. It's hard to find statistics,
again, but 2 of the 3 web pages I found with stats showed them as more
dangerous than cars per mile.
I'll say it again: cars are not exceptionally dangerous. The huge number
of traffic fatalities is due to the huge amount of car travel
undertaken, not because they're incredibly unsafe.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> ... but I'd have a hard time carrying my family's weekly supply of
>> PAPER TOWELS on a bike (it's not the weight, it's the space), let
>> alone all the other stuff.
>
> What does your family *do* with all those paper towels? A single roll
> lasts me two or three months.
Clean stuff. Absorb oil from french fries. Wrap bagels for microwaving
so they're still fresh-like. Makeshift nursing pads. Soak up spill of
(whatever). You have no children, nor a dog, as far as I know, so you
know not what sort of messes they can create. I have four kids, three of
which are mobile, plus one dog. One mishap with the sprayer on the sink,
half a roll is gone. Assuming they didn't spray the roll ITSELF, in
which case it's half a roll for the cleanup PLUS whatever part of a roll
was next to the sink. And so on and so forth.
David DeLaney
>> ... but I'd have a hard time carrying my family's weekly supply of
>> PAPER TOWELS on a bike (it's not the weight, it's the space), let
>> alone all the other stuff.
>
>What does your family *do* with all those paper towels? A single roll
>lasts me two or three months.
You aren't a family with children. (If I recall right you don't have pets
either.) Things HAPPEN that require paper towels, singly or in large quantity,
unexpectedly. (Also: bandaids; extra loads of laundry; scrubbing of floors,
walls, and occasionally ceilings; and removal of foreign substances from hair.)
I myself don't have any bandaids in the house, but I do have a roll of paper
towels, and once in a while it Needs To Get Used. And this is for someone
who's spent over 40 years trying to learn how not to bump into stuff and knock
it over. Many kids are much less good at this sort of thing.
tl;dr: Your life experience is atypical, Keith.
Wayne Throop
: The US automobile fatality rate is about 1 per 100
: sustain 50 miles per day (which you couldn't), would take about 5,000
: years, and you'd die long before that. Walking is far more dangerous
: than driving.
Pfeh. A single person doesn't have to walk the 1e8 miles, any more than
a single car or a single driver needs to rack up the 1e8 miles. It'd
actually be interesting to know the fatality rate for walking per mile.
Remember to include hikers, or cardiac patients who really shouldn't
oughta, just like drunks who really shouldn't oughta are included in cars.
I wouldn't really expect it to be worse than cars, any more than I'd
expect it to be worse than space shuttles (for vaguely analogous reasons),
but it'd still be an interesting number imo.
Wayne Throop
: One mishap with the sprayer on the sink,
I admit that even I (who use paper towels for lots and lots of things)
wouldn't use them for that. More likely, some microfiber cloths which I
can wring out and make several passes of sopping with.
But anyways. Quick estimate of usage among the (all adult, plus
complement of cats) household here, it would seem to be soemthing on
the order of one roll per person per month. Maybe a little more.
With children, or messier pets, I don't doubt it would be higher.
If paper towels were expensive, I don't doubt it could easily be lower
(and use towels/cloths/other-reusables instead.
Mike Ash
wrote:
I think it's a reasonable comparison. People make routine use of cars
which would suck up huge portions of their lifetime if the trips were
done on foot. For example, I pretty frequently make 150-mile round trips
on weekends for fun. Doing this on foot would take a couple of days at
least. The average lifetime lost in walking would exceed that lost in
driving, without even accounting for the immediate physical risks
involved in walking.
Kurt Busiek
> : "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com>
> : One mishap with the sprayer on the sink,
> : half a roll is gone.
>
> I admit that even I (who use paper towels for lots and lots of things)
> wouldn't use them for that. More likely, some microfiber cloths which I
> can wring out and make several passes of sopping with.
Same herer. We have two kids in the house plus dog, and we've never
gone through paper towels at the rate Wasp does.
We have a drawer full of dishtowels, which are handy for various
spills, drying dishes, using when the potholders are hiding and so on,
and they can be tossed into the washing machine along with other stuff.
Paper towels still get used for some moppings-up, for wrapping things
in hte microwave and so on, just not at anywhere near the volume the
Spoor household uses them at.
Wayne Throop
: I think it's a reasonable comparison. People make routine use of cars
: done on foot. For example, I pretty frequently make 150-mile round trips
: on weekends for fun.
That's an issue of cost and convenience, not safety. Express it in terms
of chace-of-dying-per-mile, and just compare.
Further, I don't think most people reach 1e8 miles of driving; certainly
cars don't last that long. So your way of comparison would have cars and
walking pretty much equally deadly, since 1e8 miles in a car at 500
miles per day is beyond human lifespan also (unless I've dropped a
decimal point somewhere).
Therefore, I'd be more interested in chance-of-dying-per-mile for each,
rather than chance-of-dying-while-making-a-1e8-mile-trip.
Bill Snyder
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
Yeah, the next thing you know some lunatic will want to put the
*privy* inside.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Dimensional Traveler
--
"Dude. They've gone fractal."
Dimensional Traveler
> Michael Stemper <mste...@siemens-emis.com> wrote:
>> Taking groceries for a family of four wouldn't work too well on a
>> bicycle or a bus.
>
> That depends on how often you shop.
>
>> Neither would a new lawnmower or a few pieces of sheetrock.
>
> Lawnmowers have wheels -- you can easily push them home from the
> store. I'll grant that sheetrock could be a problem. But with the
> aid of a hand truck, I've carried a bookcase on Metrorail.
Many transit systems will not allow passengers to do things like that.
(Assuming said passenger could even _get_ a loaded hand truck to the
train or vehicle or thru its doors.)
David Goldfarb
>> If I were putting something in my garbage disposal to attempt to unclog
>> it, I'd disconnect the power first. Seems like an obvious precaution.
>
> I don't see ANY simple way to do that on mine. It's wired to a switch.
>I can turn the switch off, but if I want to disconnect the power, I'd
>have to go down and throw a breaker that would I think kill the entire
>kitchen.
Given the possibility, however remote, of having the thing activate
while my fingers were in it, I'd flip the breaker. Am I being paranoid?
(Looks like the disposal in my kitchen is also hardwired; but the breakers
are just in the next room, not the basement. [I live in an apartment
and don't have a basement.])
--
David Goldfarb | From the fortune cookie file:
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | "You will have gold pieces by the bushel."
Mike Ash
> : Mike Ash <mi...@mikeash.com>
Um, ok. Your chance of dying in a car is roughly 1e-8 per mile. Life in
general causes about 1.5 deaths per million hours, which, assuming 3
miles per hour, puts you at around 2e-7 per mile. Of course that's
heavily biased toward the end of life, but at the same time it *doesn't*
account for any walking-specific chance of accident.
If you want to know the chances of actual violent death, consider that,
in 1991, pedestrians in the US racked up 1-2% of the number of miles
that cars did, yet experienced well over 10% of the number of roadway
fatalities. Thus, walking is about an order of magnitude more dangerous
per mile in terms of violent death, at around 1e-7 per mile.
(Numbers pulled from http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/ped_bike/docs/case15.pdf
. They're old, but I doubt that walking has become enormously safer in
the past 20 years, or cars more dangerous.)
Wayne Throop
: If you want to know the chances of actual violent death, consider that,
: that cars did, yet experienced well over 10% of the number of roadway
: fatalities.
Well there you go. Of course, I presume that's pedestrian encounters
with cars, so in mastranstopia, those deaths would occur at a rate
taken only from buses and trains. Scaled.
However, that *is* suggestive.
Dorothy J Heydt
Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>Kurt Busiek wrote:
>>
>> So it wasn't that car services are inherently bad, it's that the
>> professor picked a stinker.
>>
>Probably it was the cheapest.
Or some colleague recommended it to him. I'll never know and at
this point I no longer care.
R H Draney
>
>Um, ok. Your chance of dying in a car is roughly 1e-8 per mile. Life in
>general causes about 1.5 deaths per million hours, which, assuming 3
>miles per hour, puts you at around 2e-7 per mile. Of course that's
>heavily biased toward the end of life, but at the same time it *doesn't*
>account for any walking-specific chance of accident.
>
>If you want to know the chances of actual violent death, consider that,
>in 1991, pedestrians in the US racked up 1-2% of the number of miles
>that cars did, yet experienced well over 10% of the number of roadway
>fatalities. Thus, walking is about an order of magnitude more dangerous
>per mile in terms of violent death, at around 1e-7 per mile.
>
>(Numbers pulled from http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/ped_bike/docs/case15.pdf
>. They're old, but I doubt that walking has become enormously safer in
>the past 20 years, or cars more dangerous.)
Death need not be violent to make cars safer than other forms of
transportation...consider that at any moment, a blood clot of which you were
unaware could suddenly lodge in a critical part of your brain and kill
you...there are other fatal things that can happen at any time without warning,
such as meteorite strikes....
It took me about twenty minutes to drive to work each morning...I checked the
bus schedules a few time to see that the situation hadn't changed, and it always
seemed to work out that a one-way trip from my home to the office would take
from two to three hours using public transportation....
Therefore, I would be on the bus or waiting for one somewhere between six and
nine times as long as I would be behind the wheel of my own car...the odds of
dying from one of those "when you least expect it" causes is likewise between
six and nine times as great when taking the bus as when driving myself....
(Plus they make you stand outside in the weather, and you can't willy-nilly
bring your sewing machine along to sell to a cow-orker at lunchtime)....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Thomas Prufer
>Does cat hair -- mammalian fur, in general -- compost? Intuitively,
>I see it just sitting there inertly until it finally gets eaten by
>the swollen red Sun.
Absolutely.
I can buy "horn shavings" here -- ground-up hoof and possibly horns -- as an
organic slow-release nitrogen-rich fertilizer. Fur would be very similar, though
possible releasing nitrogen faster due to the larger surface/volume ratio.
Thomas Prufer
Joyce Haslam
> Are there still grocery stores that deliver? Or have any taken the
> habit up again? I can still remember, in 1961 when I first came to the
> University, a grocery in downtown Berkeley that delivered. They took
> orders by phone, loaded the groceries into carton boxes, and muscular
> young men drove them to their destination and, as I suppose, carried
> them into the house. I think these customers had charge accounts, too.
> An echo of a bygone past. It didn't last much longer.
Here in England the big supermarket chains (Tesco, Asda, probably others)
do internet shopping with delivery. The van will arrive within a 2-hr
window and the goods come into the house.
--
Joyce.
Cheryl
> Are there still grocery stores that deliver? Or have any taken
> the habit up again? I can still remember, in 1961 when I first
> came to the University, a grocery in downtown Berkeley that
> delivered. They took orders by phone, loaded the groceries into
> carton boxes, and muscular young men drove them to their
> destination and, as I suppose, carried them into the house. I
> think these customers had charge accounts, too. An echo of a
> bygone past. It didn't last much longer.
There are a few here - a small, very nice but expensive place aiming at
the busy and rich, I suppose, and a regular supermarket from a local
small chain which I think uses the additional service as a way to
compete with the big chains. They appeal to the elderly and shut-in, I
think. The elderly also have access to a bus service run by a local
group that will take them to and from a store, and have the driver carry
the groceries to the kitchen.
--
Cheryl
Cheryl
> In article <hgc9a0$787$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> ... but I'd have a hard time carrying my family's weekly supply of
>>> PAPER TOWELS on a bike (it's not the weight, it's the space), let
>>> alone all the other stuff.
>> What does your family *do* with all those paper towels? A single roll
>> lasts me two or three months.
>
> There's only one of you. Also, you cook (properly so described)
> a lot less.
>
After one of my moves, I ended up with lots of clean rags (since I'd
separated a lot of old clothes into "donate" vs "rags" and I started
using them in place of paper towels, washing them as needed. I haven't
bought paper towels since.
--
Cheryl
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> : "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com>
> : One mishap with the sprayer on the sink,
> : half a roll is gone.
>
> I admit that even I (who use paper towels for lots and lots of things)
> wouldn't use them for that. More likely, some microfiber cloths which I
> can wring out and make several passes of sopping with.
Cloths and sponges -- anything that isn't thrown away, yet is used for
liquids -- grow nasty stuff in them if someone doesn't dry them. I can't
depend on people to make sure they dry. So, none of those here.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Privy? Why are you wasting all those resources when a simple hole will
do perfectly well?