Re: Starving people refuse to eat food aid
trag
> Joyce Haslam <newsrea...@boulsworth.co.uk> wrote:
> > I gave up my US passport when I realized it was 10 years out of
> > date, and that I qualified for British citizenship.
>
> What does it mean to give it up? You hand it over in the embassy?
> You officially renounced your US citizensip? Why bother?
>
> My long-expired passport is sitting in a drawer, not doing any harm.
> If I needed the space, I'd shred it and toss it in the trash.
Expired passports can be renewed for some really long time. I think
five years? I renewed my passport which expired in Apr. 2007 a couple
of months ago.
Cryptoengineer
15 year is you're doing it by mail.
Apparently unlimited you do it in person, and the passport is
undamaged.
pt
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Jeez. I should see if I still have mine. Which was issued when I was
about 11.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Keith F. Lynch
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> My long-expired passport is sitting in a drawer, not doing any harm.
>> If I needed the space, I'd shred it and toss it in the trash.
> Expired passports can be renewed for some really long time. I think
> five years?
It was issued 19 years ago and expired 9 years ago. I last used it 6
years ago, to visit Canada. Expired passports were allowed for that
then, but no longer.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
cryptoguy
> trag <t...@io.com> wrote:
> > "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> >> My long-expired passport is sitting in a drawer, not doing any harm.
> >> If I needed the space, I'd shred it and toss it in the trash.
> > Expired passports can be renewed for some really long time. I think
> > five years?
>
> It was issued 19 years ago and expired 9 years ago. I last used it 6
> years ago, to visit Canada. Expired passports were allowed for that
> then, but no longer.
You'll have to make an in-person application. It looks like you could
do so either at the main Passport office in DC, or at the main Vienna
PO.
pt
Warren Oates
"Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> It was issued 19 years ago and expired 9 years ago. I last used it 6
> years ago, to visit Canada. Expired passports were allowed for that
> then, but no longer.
Here's a "security theatre" wrinkle for you:
Technically, under the law, US citizens and returning Canadians don't
_need_ a passport to enter Canada, just some sort of official picture
ID:
<http://www.cbsa.gc.ca/security-securite/admiss-eng.html>
In practice, however, since the Canadian officials know that everyone
needs passports (or EDLs) to enter the US, they know we have them, and
they ask for them. Of course, they "recommend" them. I don't really mind
this. It seems easier now to cross the US border than before 9/11.
(That's all for land travel; air travel has a whole bunch of other
regulations.)
--
Very old woody beets will never cook tender.
-- Fannie Farmer
trag
But above you wrote that they can be renewed by mail for fifteen
years, which is greater than nine. Did you mean fifteen years from
teh date of expiration, or fifteen years from the date of issuance?
James
> In article <hgca9o$n2...@reader1.panix.com>,
I think we Canadians would like to know that Americans entering our
country are able to return to the US without undue delay.
I hadn't had my car torn apart by US customs until this year. I had
all the proper docs, and I was told it was random but I have my
doubts. Before searching the car, they asked me (with more than one
officer present as witnesses) if there was any cash in the vehicle, or
any sharp items. This was presumably because they would be poking
their hands into the vehicle's cavities, and didn't want any
accusations of missing cash, or didn't want to stick themselves with a
needle.
The increases in security at Canadian Border points are primarily due
to longstanding co-operation between our border agency and the US
Department of Homeland Security. This was highlighted in a recent AFU
thread where a man in Buffalo following his GPS' directions
unintentionally went onto one of the bridges into Canada. He turned
around before he got to the Canadian agents. While under no obligation
at all to do so, Canadian agents contacted US agents on the other
side, who pulled him over for a more thorough inspection. His fake ID
was uncovered and he was busted.
James
cryptoguy
15 years from issue.
pt
Hatunen
<warren...@gmail.com> wrote:
>In article <hgca9o$n2m$2...@reader1.panix.com>,
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
>> It was issued 19 years ago and expired 9 years ago. I last used it 6
>> years ago, to visit Canada. Expired passports were allowed for that
>> then, but no longer.
>
>Here's a "security theatre" wrinkle for you:
>
>Technically, under the law, US citizens and returning Canadians don't
>_need_ a passport to enter Canada, just some sort of official picture
>ID:
>
><http://www.cbsa.gc.ca/security-securite/admiss-eng.html>
>
>In practice, however, since the Canadian officials know that everyone
>needs passports (or EDLs) to enter the US, they know we have them, and
>they ask for them. Of course, they "recommend" them. I don't really mind
>this. It seems easier now to cross the US border than before 9/11.
You must never have crossed the US-Canadian border in the 1950s
and 1960s.
Still, in the mid-1950s an American had to fill out a car permit
and had to mark any optional equipment on the car, such as a
radio or a heater!
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Keith F. Lynch
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> It was issued 19 years ago and expired 9 years ago. �I last used it
>> 6 years ago, to visit Canada. �Expired passports were allowed for
>> that then, but no longer.
> You'll have to make an in-person application. It looks like you
> could do so either at the main Passport office in DC, or at the main
> Vienna PO.
I have no intention of renewing it until Bush's War on Tourism is
ended. And Obama shows no signs of ending it.
Also, my financial situation precludes international travel. And if
Obamacare passes, I doubt there will be any financial recovery in
our lifetimes.
The US now shares its databases with Canada, so I wouldn't be allowed
in anyway, due to my false conviction 32 years ago, even though I
visited 6 years ago and 15 years ago.
John F. Eldredge
> On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:53:31 -0500, Warren Oates
> <warren...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <hgca9o$n2m$2...@reader1.panix.com>,
>> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>
>>> It was issued 19 years ago and expired 9 years ago. I last used it 6
>>> years ago, to visit Canada. Expired passports were allowed for that
>>> then, but no longer.
>>
>>Here's a "security theatre" wrinkle for you:
>>
>>Technically, under the law, US citizens and returning Canadians don't
>>_need_ a passport to enter Canada, just some sort of official picture
>>ID:
>>
>><http://www.cbsa.gc.ca/security-securite/admiss-eng.html>
>>
>>In practice, however, since the Canadian officials know that everyone
>>needs passports (or EDLs) to enter the US, they know we have them, and
>>they ask for them. Of course, they "recommend" them. I don't really mind
>>this. It seems easier now to cross the US border than before 9/11.
>
> You must never have crossed the US-Canadian border in the 1950s and
> 1960s.
>
> Still, in the mid-1950s an American had to fill out a car permit and had
> to mark any optional equipment on the car, such as a radio or a heater!
My mind boggles at the idea of a car heater being considered optional in
either Canada or the northern USA. I live in the American South, and
have never heard of a car being sold, even down here, without one. I am
assuming, of course, that "heater" means a means of routing surplus
engine heat into the body, as opposed to the heaters with separate fuel
sources used in some very early cars.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
cryptoguy
> cryptoguy <treifam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> >> It was issued 19 years ago and expired 9 years ago. I last used it
> >> 6 years ago, to visit Canada. Expired passports were allowed for
> >> that then, but no longer.
> > You'll have to make an in-person application. It looks like you
> > could do so either at the main Passport office in DC, or at the main
> > Vienna PO.
>
> I have no intention of renewing it until Bush's War on Tourism is
> ended. And Obama shows no signs of ending it.
>
> Also, my financial situation precludes international travel. And if
> Obamacare passes, I doubt there will be any financial recovery in
> our lifetimes.
>
> The US now shares its databases with Canada, so I wouldn't be allowed
> in anyway, due to my false conviction 32 years ago, even though I
> visited 6 years ago and 15 years ago.
You keep saying that. Have you tried actually finding out? Written to
the Canadian Emabassy, for example, pointing out the minor nature of
the supposed offence, how long ago it occurred, and your clean record
since? The worst they can say is 'No'.
The role unjustly punished martyr wears thin after a while.
pt
Warren Oates
Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
> You must never have crossed the US-Canadian border in the 1950s
> and 1960s.
>
> Still, in the mid-1950s an American had to fill out a car permit
> and had to mark any optional equipment on the car, such as a
> radio or a heater!
I guess the earliest for me was sometime in 1961 or '62, and I don't
remember anything like that. I was a kid, but I would certainly have
noticed complications of that sort. I remember there were no seat-belts,
and we'd have a mattress in the back of the station wagon to sleep on.
It's still illegal for a Canadian (resident) to drive across the border
in a car with US plates. It goes back to before the auto pact when cars
were very expensive in Canada.
Richard Casady
>On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:53:31 -0500, Warren Oates
><warren...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <hgca9o$n2m$2...@reader1.panix.com>,
>> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>
>>> It was issued 19 years ago and expired 9 years ago. I last used it 6
>>> years ago, to visit Canada. Expired passports were allowed for that
>>> then, but no longer.
>>
>>Here's a "security theatre" wrinkle for you:
>>
>>Technically, under the law, US citizens and returning Canadians don't
>>_need_ a passport to enter Canada, just some sort of official picture
>>ID:
>>
>><http://www.cbsa.gc.ca/security-securite/admiss-eng.html>
>>
>>In practice, however, since the Canadian officials know that everyone
>>needs passports (or EDLs) to enter the US, they know we have them, and
>>they ask for them. Of course, they "recommend" them. I don't really mind
>>this. It seems easier now to cross the US border than before 9/11.
>
>You must never have crossed the US-Canadian border in the 1950s
>and 1960s.
>
>Still, in the mid-1950s an American had to fill out a car permit
>and had to mark any optional equipment on the car, such as a
>radio or a heater!
So you drive to Canada and sell some impoverished Canuck the heater
out of your car. It would seem that the dealers really stung the
customers on the optional equipment. What else is new. You don't need
a heater if you drive with the top down, so that the windshield
doesn't frost up. I have driven four different ragtops all winter with
the top down [unless it was snowing.] A VW thing and a Mercedes Unimog
that had the tops in storage, to name a couple. You dress for the cold
and you are out of the wind, no problem. No matter how tough you are
the defrost is almost a must. Moose Factory here we come.
Casady
James
> In article <vdeli5p7ftpjboc5sktisukp92lrvhv...@4ax.com>,
>
> Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
> > You must never have crossed the US-Canadian border in the 1950s
> > and 1960s.
>
> > Still, in the mid-1950s an American had to fill out a car permit
> > and had to mark any optional equipment on the car, such as a
> > radio or a heater!
>
> I guess the earliest for me was sometime in 1961 or '62, and I don't
> remember anything like that. I was a kid, but I would certainly have
> noticed complications of that sort. I remember there were no seat-belts,
> and we'd have a mattress in the back of the station wagon to sleep on.
>
> It's still illegal for a Canadian (resident) to drive across the border
> in a car with US plates. It goes back to before the auto pact when cars
> were very expensive in Canada.
I did cross the border in a car in the 60s and we didn't require any
paperwork for the car. But the Auto Pact was signed in 65 and our
trips were likely after that point.
Why would it be illegal for a Canadian to drive a US plated car across
the border? Do you have a cite? My mother in law for example is a dual
citizen, and has driven with her American husband across the border on
many ocassions, in her US registered/plated car.
James
Ralph Jones
wrote:
>>
>> Still, in the mid-1950s an American had to fill out a car permit and had
>> to mark any optional equipment on the car, such as a radio or a heater!
>
>My mind boggles at the idea of a car heater being considered optional in
>either Canada or the northern USA. I live in the American South, and
>have never heard of a car being sold, even down here, without one. I am
>assuming, of course, that "heater" means a means of routing surplus
>engine heat into the body, as opposed to the heaters with separate fuel
>sources used in some very early cars.
I grew up in the South too, and I'm pretty sure I rode in cars without
heaters. "R & H" commonly appeared in used-car ads.
rj
Hatunen
When I was a kid cars didn't come with heaters. They were
installed at the owners request in the form of a heat exchanger
below the dash on the passenger side, which didn't help much with
demisting the windshield. The heat came from bypass tubing run to
the cars cooling system. That pretty much completely changed
after WW2, but the Canadian requirement hung on. My first car, a
1952 Ford had come with a radio and heater, just like now (I
bought it from a cow orker in 1955).
Hatunen
Are there still special marques for Canadians? I remember a sort
of hybrid Ford/Mercury called the Meteor (I think it was).
Hatunen
But was she a Canadian *resident*, the status required in the
poster's comment?
On the other hand, when fist wife ad I were a landed immigrants
in Canada 1965-66, and therefore residents, we used to drive our
car with Kentucky plates back and forth across the border without
incident.
Hatunen
I believe the heaters were frequently third party installed.
>You don't need
>a heater if you drive with the top down, so that the windshield
>doesn't frost up. I have driven four different ragtops all winter with
>the top down [unless it was snowing.] A VW thing and a Mercedes Unimog
>that had the tops in storage, to name a couple. You dress for the cold
>and you are out of the wind, no problem. No matter how tough you are
>the defrost is almost a must. Moose Factory here we come.
Obviously a rugged outdoorsman. How did you get the snow out of
the car, or sid you just sit in the snow? And what part of the
countfy was this?
You do understand, I hope, that your experiences are atypical?
James
> On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:03:04 -0500, Warren Oates
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> You must never have crossed the US-Canadian border in the 1950s
> >> and 1960s.
>
> >> Still, in the mid-1950s an American had to fill out a car permit
> >> and had to mark any optional equipment on the car, such as a
> >> radio or a heater!
>
> >I guess the earliest for me was sometime in 1961 or '62, and I don't
> >remember anything like that. I was a kid, but I would certainly have
> >noticed complications of that sort. I remember there were no seat-belts,
> >and we'd have a mattress in the back of the station wagon to sleep on.
>
> >It's still illegal for a Canadian (resident) to drive across the border
> >in a car with US plates. It goes back to before the auto pact when cars
> >were very expensive in Canada.
>
> Are there still special marques for Canadians? I remember a sort
> of hybrid Ford/Mercury called the Meteor (I think it was).
The point of the auto pact was to integrate auto manufacturing.
Instead of building the same models in both places, the Pact enabled
makers to build one model for both. There were special versions and
name changes from one country to another. There was a guarentee that
Canada would build roughly the same proportion of vehicles it had at
signing. Thats why we own 20% of GM, not the 10% our population would
dictate, for example. The other factor I'd heard that we would export
as many cars as we import, though since the rise of the non big three
makers, thats pretty meaningless.
They have been cars special to Canada for a while. Sometimes its that
we get a "foreign" model before its introduced in the US, kinda like a
marketing test. The Nissan XTrail (never made it to US), the Smart Car
and the Mercedes B class were in Canada for years. The US got newer
generations, presumably modeled with knowledge gained from Canadian
customers. Hyundai launched in Canada in the 80s with the Pony and
Stellar, both of which were superceded by the time of the Hyundai US
lauch (and as the former owner of a Pony, I'd say you got lucky)
I can't recall a "real" Canadian specific model from the big three in
a long long time. Of course we renamed the Lacrosse because of
Quebecois slang, but at the recent relaunch, they chose the Lacrosse
name for both Canada and the US. My uncle once owned a Meteor though,
it was vintage in the 70s (mid 50s car). Canada had the Passport/Asuna
experiments of the 80s/90s, but those were the same as Geos.
James
Quadibloc
> Why would it be illegal for a Canadian to drive a US plated car across
> the border?
It's illegal, at least in B.C., for a Canadian to drive a car with
U.S. plates - within B.C.. This law was brought in because some people
were registering their cars in the U.S. where the fees were lower.
John Savard
Strobe
>When I was a kid cars didn't come with heaters. They were
>installed at the owners request in the form of a heat exchanger
>below the dash on the passenger side, which didn't help much with
>demisting the windshield. The heat came from bypass tubing run to
>the cars cooling system. That pretty much completely changed
>after WW2, but the Canadian requirement hung on. My first car, a
>1952 Ford had come with a radio and heater, just like now (I
>bought it from a cow orker in 1955).
In post-war England there were still quite a few cars without heaters.
I came across a young couple in one, stuck on the Hogs Back in freezing fog.
I sprayed their windshield with de-icer, only to find it was equally iced up on
the inside too!
My own radio antenna built up over half an inch of impact icing that trip -
first time I'd experienced it in a ground vehicle.
Mac
I am trying to think of how many ways this could go wrong, but the
room is cold, and I don't wanna remove my socks.
Anthony "Surprised the spam folder didn't pick it up (1)" McCafferty
(1) Google. Yeah, as if.
Mac
> On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 08:59:21 -0600, Richard Casady
>
>
>
> >On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 16:10:04 -0700, Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> >>On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:53:31 -0500, Warren Oates
>
> >>>In article <hgca9o$n2...@reader1.panix.com>,
I suspect "Unimog" and "Thing" alerted him.
A neighbor, in the sense that those who use the same supermarket are a
sort of neighbor, has a Pinzgauer, which appears to have been designed
by people who thought that springs were quite enough decadent luxury,
thankyouvermuch.
Anthony "I have never seen it outside of high summer" McCafferty
David Scheidt
:On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:55:12 -0700, Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
:>When I was a kid cars didn't come with heaters. They were
:>installed at the owners request in the form of a heat exchanger
:>below the dash on the passenger side, which didn't help much with
:>demisting the windshield. The heat came from bypass tubing run to
:>the cars cooling system. That pretty much completely changed
:>after WW2, but the Canadian requirement hung on. My first car, a
:>1952 Ford had come with a radio and heater, just like now (I
:>bought it from a cow orker in 1955).
:In post-war England there were still quite a few cars without heaters.
My 1963ish Land-Rover (it's a home market truck, even though it's now in
the US, and has the steering wheel on the side god intended) came from
the factory with the optional "heater". It's affectionatly called the
shinburner, due to its location next to the shin ofthe person in the left
hand front seat. An acquantance made a long drive in a very cold winter
in a truck with only a smiths heater. He suffered second degree burns
to his left leg, and frostbite on his left foot. I installed a decent
heater in my truck...
--
sig 12
Keith F. Lynch
> An acquantance made a long drive in a very cold winter in a truck
> with only a smiths heater. He suffered second degree burns to his
> left leg, and frostbite on his left foot.
On average, he felt fine.
Warren Oates
Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
> Are there still special marques for Canadians? I remember a sort
> of hybrid Ford/Mercury called the Meteor (I think it was).
No. The last one I recall was the Ford Frontenac, which was a Falcon in
Canadian clothing.
Warren Oates
Hatunen <hat...@cox.net> wrote:
> But was she a Canadian *resident*, the status required in the
> poster's comment?
The closest I can find to a cite is here:
http://www.britishcolumbia.com/information/details.asp?id=6
towards the bottom of the page:
Canadian residents may not bring a US rented vehicle into Canada.
But (true UL stuff here) I had a buddy who was refused entry when he
tried to drive his girl friend's car across at Rock Island Que (or Derby
Line, Vt). It's a small town where the border runs through the library
and the opera house and a grocery store.
Keith F. Lynch
> Moose Factory here we come.
I've always loved that name, and the images it conjures.
Keith F. Lynch
> You keep saying that. Have you tried actually finding out? Written
> to the Canadian Emabassy, for example,
Why waste a stamp? I'd go there in person. I'm frequently in that
neighborhood anyway.
> pointing out the minor nature of the supposed offence,
I don't consider office burglary minor.
> how long ago it occurred, and your clean record since? The worst
> they can say is 'No'.
Why bother? Until my financial situation improves and the War on
Tourism ends, I have no intention of visiting Canada.
Anyhow, their own published rules say I'm ineligible. What makes
you think they'd make an exception for me? Just because I'm such a
nice guy?
Anyhow, the term "deemed rehabilitated" rubs me the wrong way. I
am *not* rehabilitated. I am not one iota more moral, ethical, or
rehabilitated than I was the day of the burglary. I'm just a lot
more knowledgeable.
> The role unjustly punished martyr wears thin after a while.
I'm just giving the facts. Sorry if they make you feel uncomfortable.
Be sure not to Google for "James Bain" or "Thomas Arthur." If my
story makes you uncomfortable, theirs will make your head explode.
Hatunen
<k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>cryptoguy <treif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You keep saying that. Have you tried actually finding out? Written
>> to the Canadian Emabassy, for example,
>
>Why waste a stamp? I'd go there in person. I'm frequently in that
>neighborhood anyway.
>
>> pointing out the minor nature of the supposed offence,
>
>I don't consider office burglary minor.
>
>> how long ago it occurred, and your clean record since? The worst
>> they can say is 'No'.
>
>Why bother? Until my financial situation improves and the War on
>Tourism ends, I have no intention of visiting Canada.
And Canada probably appreciates it.
Keith F. Lynch
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Why bother? Until my financial situation improves and the War on
>> Tourism ends, I have no intention of visiting Canada.
> And Canada probably appreciates it.
Sure. The last two times I was there I only spent a few hundred
dollars. Why in the world would they want me, or anyone else, to do
that again? I'm sure they greatly prefer their hotels to be empty.
Richard Casady
Iowa. We just had a fifteen inch snowfall. Four foot drifts in the
driveway. Luckily we have a nice hydrostatic drive John Deere with a
loader. The loader also moves firewood from the driveway to the back
door.
James
wrote:
> Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
> > "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> >> Why bother? Until my financial situation improves and the War on
> >> Tourism ends, I have no intention of visiting Canada.
> > And Canada probably appreciates it.
>
> Sure. The last two times I was there I only spent a few hundred
> dollars. Why in the world would they want me, or anyone else, to do
> that again? I'm sure they greatly prefer their hotels to be empty.
Well while there have been times in the last few years when Canada was
"desparate" for tourism, other than Toronto during the SARS crisis,
its never been to the point of being "empty". Some of us natives
found we could get tickets to shows, ball games, restaurant
reservations easily for once.
Sure the US border controls have made some US tourists (without
passports or enhanced drivers licenses) stay away. It has also served
to decrease the number of Canadians crossing to shop in the US, so its
not a total loss. I'd have to say Niagara Falls, NY and Buffalo, NY
are probably more deeply affected than Canadian tourist operators on
the other side of the border.
And our tourism marketing isn't focussed on the budget tourist.
Feel free to stay home if thats your choice.
James
Keith F. Lynch
> "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Sure. �The last two times I was there I only spent a few hundred
>> dollars. �Why in the world would they want me, or anyone else, to do
>> that again? �I'm sure they greatly prefer their hotels to be empty.
> Well while there have been times in the last few years when Canada
> was "desparate" for tourism, other than Toronto during the SARS
> crisis, its never been to the point of being "empty". Some of us
> natives found we could get tickets to shows, ball games, restaurant
> reservations easily for once.
Ironically, the last time I was in Canada *was* in Toronto during the
SARS crisis. When I returned, the Red Cross no longer accepted my
blood. Eventually, when I unaccountably failed to die or even get
sick despite my foolhardy visit to Canada's notorious city of death,
they relented and resumed draining my vein.
> Sure the US border controls have made some US tourists (without
> passports or enhanced drivers licenses) stay away.
Along with anyone ever convicted of a crime, even if it was minor and
many decades ago, and even if everyone else has long since acknowledged
that it was a false conviction and moved on.
> It has also served to decrease the number of Canadians crossing to
> shop in the US, so its not a total loss. I'd have to say Niagara
> Falls, NY and Buffalo, NY are probably more deeply affected than
> Canadian tourist operators on the other side of the border.
Maybe both countries would be better off if no person and no goods
ever crossed the border again. Better yet, also prevent anyone and
anything from crossing borders between states or between provinces.
If nobody in my home town -- including retailers -- ever bought
anything anywhere else or hired anyone who lives somewhere else,
just imagine how wealthy this town would soon be. Sure.
> And our tourism marketing isn't focussed on the budget tourist.
> Feel free to stay home if thats your choice.
It is. And it's more Canada's loss than mine.
Richard Casady
<k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>It is. And it's more Canada's loss than mine
I asked a Canadian bartender in the Vancouver airport how come all the
bilingual signs. First, its more than a thousand miles from the
francophones second, who can't they learn the forty words found on
highway signs. He said it's really dumb politics, what can I say.
Casady
R H Draney
"Really dumb politics" is as good an explanation as any for about ninety percent
of the nonsense we're faced with in this world....r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
James
wrote:
For an alternate perspective....
When the colonies that became the first provinces of Canada negotiated
the agreement for confederation, part of the agreement was for
bilingualism in federal courts and in parliament as well as other
language rights. So Canada has had some level of bilingualism in
federal institutions since its inception.
The airports are federally regulated, and used to be federally owned
and operated, therefore subject to having bilingual signage and
providing services in both official languages
As for being thousands of miles from Quebec, one would have to be
somewhat ignorant of how air travel works to think that Quebecers
would only ever use airports in Quebec. Hint, people usually travel
from from one airport to another. Vancouver is a gateway airport for
flights from Canada to Asia. I'm sure lots of Quebecers go through
there.
Roughly 20 % of Canadians speak French as their first language and
they are not only found in Quebec(New Brunswick is an officially
biligual province). They have rights to use their language that date
back from the treaties signed after the British conquered Quebec in
1763.
What gets my goat is bartenders like these who object to french signs,
but happily go to Chinatown and see biligual (Chinese/english) signs
without any complaint.
Fact is the vast majority of Canadians are descended from immigrants
who came to Canada long after the idea that there were two founding
nations was enshrined in law. And most of the complainers are woefully
ignorant of their country's history.
James
James
> James <jl...@idirect.com> wrote:
> > "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> >> Sure. The last two times I was there I only spent a few hundred
> >> dollars. Why in the world would they want me, or anyone else, to do
> >> that again? I'm sure they greatly prefer their hotels to be empty.
> > Well while there have been times in the last few years when Canada
> > was "desparate" for tourism, other than Toronto during the SARS
> > crisis, its never been to the point of being "empty". Some of us
> > natives found we could get tickets to shows, ball games, restaurant
> > reservations easily for once.
>
> Ironically, the last time I was in Canada *was* in Toronto during the
> SARS crisis. When I returned, the Red Cross no longer accepted my
> blood. Eventually, when I unaccountably failed to die or even get
> sick despite my foolhardy visit to Canada's notorious city of death,
> they relented and resumed draining my vein.
>
despite the 40 some odd SARS deaths over six months, you were more
likely to die from a car accident in Toronto in that time than SARS.
And yet people still use cars, imagine that.
> > Sure the US border controls have made some US tourists (without
> > passports or enhanced drivers licenses) stay away.
>
> Along with anyone ever convicted of a crime, even if it was minor and
> many decades ago, and even if everyone else has long since acknowledged
> that it was a false conviction and moved on.
You obviously made it into Canada despite your record, and obviously
the US border guards let you back in. We have plenty of similar
situations. I heard an interview with a Canadian accountant who was
denied entry into the US for business. Apparently despite the fact
that professionals including certified accountants have mobility
rights under NAFTA, no one told US immigration.
Were you ever granted a pardon? Is your conviction still on the books?
Define "everyone". The Canadians get their information on US citizens
from the US government, so if you want to blame someone, call your
congressman.
>
> > It has also served to decrease the number of Canadians crossing to
> > shop in the US, so its not a total loss. I'd have to say Niagara
> > Falls, NY and Buffalo, NY are probably more deeply affected than
> > Canadian tourist operators on the other side of the border.
>
> Maybe both countries would be better off if no person and no goods
> ever crossed the border again. Better yet, also prevent anyone and
> anything from crossing borders between states or between provinces.
>
Thats silly. Both countries benefit from trade, and its pretty
integrated. The auto industry for example, cars made in Canada contain
US parts, and vice versa. The supply chain snakes back and forth
across the border.
Becoming isolationist would only hurt the economies of our countries.
I am for trade and travel and more open boarders. But in the case of
Canada, given our dependance on US trade, we have to comply with the
regulations that the US comes out with on border security.
> If nobody in my home town -- including retailers -- ever bought
> anything anywhere else or hired anyone who lives somewhere else,
> just imagine how wealthy this town would soon be. Sure.
Are you suggesting thats my position, you couldn't be more wrong. I
was a political activist, and in the 80s I actively supported the free
trade agreement, even though it somewhat favoured the US. I haven't
changed my mind.
>
> > And our tourism marketing isn't focussed on the budget tourist.
> > Feel free to stay home if thats your choice.
>
> It is. And it's more Canada's loss than mine.
Seriously Keith, you think you are so special that we are losing
something by your absense? Get over yourself.
James
Richard Casady
wrote:
>The airports are federally regulated, and used to be federally owned
>and operated, therefore subject to having bilingual signage and
>providing services in both official languages
All the highway signs were bilingual, and none of them needed to be.
Keith F. Lynch
> I remember doing the math and posting the stats somewhere at the
> time, despite the 40 some odd SARS deaths over six months, you were
> more likely to die from a car accident in Toronto in that time than
> SARS.
And I'm sure the Red Cross would also have turned me down for blood
donation had I been killed in a car accident in Toronto.
The fact that I did go to Toronto should show how worried I was. Just
as the fact that I helped load and unload stuff in front on a hotel in
Silver Spring during a convention at the height of the sniper scare in
that area shows how worried I was about that. And now it's H1N1 flu
that I'm supposed to be worried about.
> You obviously made it into Canada despite your record,
Yes, six and half years ago. Since then the US has shared its
complete criminal database with Canadian customs, linked to
passport numbers.
> and obviously the US border guards let you back in.
I never said they wouldn't. As far as I know, US citizens are always
allowed to enter the US. They may be hassled, but not denied entry.
> Were you ever granted a pardon?
No.
> Is your conviction still on the books?
Yes. Convictions in Virginia are permanent.
> Define "everyone". The Canadians get their information on US
> citizens from the US government, so if you want to blame someone,
> call your congressman.
There's plenty of blame to go around. And yes, I blame myself for
being so gullible and so trusting of authority.
> Seriously Keith, you think you are so special that we are losing
> something by your absense?
If you also count millions of other Americans in similar
circumstances, yes.
Why the hostility?
Keith F. Lynch
> What gets my goat is bartenders like these who object to french
> signs, but happily go to Chinatown and see biligual (Chinese/english)
> signs without any complaint.
Perhaps they're objecting, not to the presence of the signs, but to
their being mandatory.
Hatunen
<jl...@idirect.com> wrote:
>For an alternate perspective....
>
>When the colonies that became the first provinces of Canada negotiated
>the agreement for confederation, part of the agreement was for
>bilingualism in federal courts and in parliament as well as other
>language rights. So Canada has had some level of bilingualism in
>federal institutions since its inception.
>
>The airports are federally regulated, and used to be federally owned
>and operated, therefore subject to having bilingual signage and
>providing services in both official languages
>
>As for being thousands of miles from Quebec, one would have to be
>somewhat ignorant of how air travel works to think that Quebecers
>would only ever use airports in Quebec. Hint, people usually travel
>from from one airport to another. Vancouver is a gateway airport for
>flights from Canada to Asia. I'm sure lots of Quebecers go through
>there.
I suppose. But a lot of Mexicans are closer than Quebeckers.
>Roughly 20 % of Canadians speak French as their first language and
>they are not only found in Quebec(New Brunswick is an officially
>biligual province). They have rights to use their language that date
>back from the treaties signed after the British conquered Quebec in
>1763.
But nothing west of Upper Canada was part of the confederation
then. So it's hard to explain to those from Manitoba to BC why
they should care. The Westerners seem to not undrdstand why
Quebec shluld have a special status, and mandatory bilingualism
is a reminder.
Hatunen
If you are an American citizen the US border people have to let
you back in. If you press US border officials about not having a
passport they will grudgingly admit you have to be allowed to
enter, but without a passport you'll play hell proving you are a
US citizen.
Of course, up until a decade or so ago crosssign the border
either way didn't require any documentaion at all.
When I was a landed immigrant in Canada in the mid-1960s I came
down to the States one time. At the border the US guy asked the
usual questions including "Where do you live?"
I replied, "Montreal."
He said, "You're an American citizen and you reside in Montreal?
Sir, have you registered for the draft?"
I held up my foot to the window and said, "See these army combat
boots? it took two years, nine months and 27 days of my life to
earn them."
He waved me on.
James
To me this is analagous to the people who buy a house beside an
airport and complain about the noise, ignoring the fact that the noise
and the airports were there before they bought, and indeed even before
the houses were built in many cases.
The french fact existed before those western areas became provinces.
Those colonies joined a country voluntarily, and the country they
joined was already committed to providing services in French.
Manitoba may be a little different because of the Metis - the people
who claim both french and indian heritage. The province isn't
officially bilingual but does have a substantial french presense and
since there was a "rebellion" over Metis rights in the 1870s, there is
a little more sensitivity.
Its not mandatory bilingualism. The vast majority of highway signs in
BC and the rest of the west are English only, including those on the
"TransCanada Highway". I think the signage on the roads leading to the
airport are bilingual, as are the signs within the airport. I've not
been there in a year.
I don't see the "harm" in biligual signs. It may cost money to replace
an english sign with a bilingual one, but signs get changed for other
reasons all the time without complaint. If you do a new sign, the
additional cost to make it bilingual is insignificant in most cases.
Its something larger at play. Many in the west feel that Quebec gets
too much benefits from its special status, that too many Prime
Ministers are from Quebec and that the federal government provides a
lot of porkbarrel projects to Quebec. They resent the fact that a
bilingual person has a better shot at becoming Prime Minister than
someone who only speaks english. The signs are simply a convient
target and a reminder to them of the larger issues.
James
James
I was detained for 30 minutes on a random search of my vehicle at a US
border crossing in June. The actual seach only took minutes. I had all
the right documents but I was required to fill out a special form
while I waited. I can only imagine what they would do to a US citizen
showing up without a passport, when their websites and press releases
say its mandatory. Of course you will get in eventually, but the
original premise is that the threat of this kind of thing has and will
deter Americans without passports, which is a majority of US citizens
from a visit to Canada.
Thankfully I've never had any delays returning to Canada, except for
one incident in 1981. I was working for a conservative member of
Parliament in Ottawa(summer job while in university), and the
conservative party sent a number of us to a college republican
convention in Chicago to attend a school on political organizing on
college campuses. They sent us by bus. We decorated the bus with
conservative signs. At the US border, the official boarded the bus, we
held out our birth certificates and he walked along the aisle. He had
decided to ignore the beer cases under our seats, though it was clear
that a number of us were not 21 and therefore not entitled to bring
beer to the US.
On the way back, at the Windsor border crossing, the agents asked our
driver to pull over. Now Windsor is quite a liberal party stronghold,
and the federal government was liberal at the time. While there was no
evidence that the motivation existed, it wouldn't be a huge logical
leap to assume our decorations may have caused us to be pulled aside.
We sat in the bus waiting in the heat (no AC it was a school bus). Our
driver got out at about the ten minute mark and asked if we were going
to be dealt with. He was told to go back and wait. Finally after 30
minutes he got out again and found a supervisor, who let us go. They
never even asked for our birth certificates.
James
Don Freeman
>
> All the highway signs were bilingual, and none of them needed to be.
Consider yourself lucky, ours can't even speak.
--
-Don
Hatunen
<jl...@idirect.com> wrote:
Analogous only if the airport it 3000 miles away (4800km for
Canadians). I guess you really mean the western provinces knew it
when they joined the confederation. OK, but they don't have to
like it.
>The french fact existed before those western areas became provinces.
>Those colonies joined a country voluntarily, and the country they
>joined was already committed to providing services in French.
oOops/ shoulda read a paragraph further.
>Manitoba may be a little different because of the Metis - the people
>who claim both french and indian heritage. The province isn't
>officially bilingual but does have a substantial french presense and
>since there was a "rebellion" over Metis rights in the 1870s, there is
>a little more sensitivity.
>
>Its not mandatory bilingualism. The vast majority of highway signs in
>BC and the rest of the west are English only, including those on the
>"TransCanada Highway". I think the signage on the roads leading to the
>airport are bilingual, as are the signs within the airport. I've not
>been there in a year.
There's no mandatory bilingualism in the Wetere/prairie
provinces?
>I don't see the "harm" in biligual signs. It may cost money to replace
>an english sign with a bilingual one, but signs get changed for other
>reasons all the time without complaint. If you do a new sign, the
>additional cost to make it bilingual is insignificant in most cases.
>
>Its something larger at play. Many in the west feel that Quebec gets
>too much benefits from its special status, that too many Prime
>Ministers are from Quebec and that the federal government provides a
>lot of porkbarrel projects to Quebec. They resent the fact that a
>bilingual person has a better shot at becoming Prime Minister than
>someone who only speaks english. The signs are simply a convient
>target and a reminder to them of the larger issues.
That's kind of what I said.
Hatunen
<jl...@idirect.com> wrote:
>On Jan 8, 12:21�am, Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Jan 2010 11:07:16 -0800 (PST), James
>>
>> >You obviously made it into Canada despite your record, and obviously
>> >the US border guards let you back in.
>>
>> If you are an American citizen the US border people have to let
>> you back in. If you press US border officials about not having a
>> passport they will grudgingly admit you have to be allowed to
>> enter, but without a passport you'll play hell proving you are a
>> US citizen.
>
>I was detained for 30 minutes on a random search of my vehicle at a US
>border crossing in June. The actual seach only took minutes. I had all
>the right documents but I was required to fill out a special form
>while I waited. I can only imagine what they would do to a US citizen
>showing up without a passport, when their websites and press releases
>say its mandatory. Of course you will get in eventually, but the
>original premise is that the threat of this kind of thing has and will
>deter Americans without passports, which is a majority of US citizens
>from a visit to Canada.
I live in a town 100km from the Mexican border. No one likes it
but the passport requirement seems to be doing sort of OK.
Nogales, Mexico, has had a bad drop in turista imcome, though,
and Nogales, Arizona, has had a loss of business from Mexicans
who used to cross the border freely to shop in downtown Nogales.
There is a cheaper passport card available to Americans for land
border crossings.
My wife and daughter and I have had passports for a long time,
and it does seem pleasantly less crowded down on the Arizona
Riviera on the Sea of Cortez.
Nogales, Mexico, has always been one of the stops on our personal
tours for people visiting us, but now we have to tell them to get
a passport or card before coming to visit.
James
The official languages act of Canada applies only to Federal
Institutions. The TransCanada Highway is actually not "one" highway
but a series of provincial highways desigated as one . The Federal
government must provide services in French everywhere, but that
doesn't mean you will get the same level of service at say a passport
office in Vancouver as you would in Ottawa, if you came in asking to
speak in French. You may find only one agent who can speak in French
in a Vancouver office, and wait longer for service. As I mentioned
airports used to be run by the Feds and are now regulated by the feds,
so they must be bilingual. The provinces, which run the highways, are
under no obligation to provide services in any language other than
English.
The only officially bilingual provinces are Quebec and New Brunswick.
Ontario, because of a concentration of francophones in the eastern
region, provides French services "where number warrant" but they are
under no obligation to do so. I've experienced first hand that Quebec
can be a little unequal in its treatement of anglophones. I got a
speeding ticket there and forgot about it and then was sent a summary
conviction notice. The notice I got was biligual. But the english
verbiage told me I had to appear at one of 4 offices in the province,
between 9-4:30, Monday through Friday to pay. The French side informed
me that I could got to a website and pay with a credit card. There are
other areas such as education and immigration, where Quebec is not
really bilingual.
Part of the resentment goes way back in history. During the
depression, western farmers, who were obviously hit harder by the
situation than most of their eastern counterparts, blamed "eastern
bankers" for foreclosing mortgages and farm loans too agressively. At
that time Montreal was the bigger home for banks and insurance
companies. Now that most of those firms have made Toronto their
headquarters, western resentment for Toronto has increased.
There was a time in the early 80s, when the Liberal PM (from Quebec)
introduced the National Energy Policy which would reduce the provinces
cotrol over the oil/natural gas business. The Alberta premier's
response was "let the Eastern Bastards freeze in the dark". That
comment helped spur Ontario to build more nuclear reactors.
Were you in Quebec during the implementation of their language
policies? (77-80ish)
James
James
apply for it separately and go through a few more hoops(and pay more).
It meets the standards established by Homeland Security. I would have
applied if I didn't already have a passport. There is also a "Nexus"
card thats been around for a while for frequent travellers between the
US and Canada, they often have their own express lines at border
crossings. I might be tempted to have that in my wallet, but I don't
take my passport with me unless I have planned a trip across the
border. For people in border cities though, they used to make spur of
the moment day trips for shopping, gas and groceries.
Before the passport regulations at land borders were enforced, my wife
and I were in Niagara Falls Ontario for an event, and decided to do
some cross border shopping on just such a trip.
If you look at the major cities, most Canadians live within 100 miles
of the US border.
US tourism to Canada has been dropping for a while, and border
crossing is one aspect, the rise in the Canadian dollar, and the
higher gas prices here are other factors.
James
Keith F. Lynch
> I got a speeding ticket there and forgot about it and then was sent
> a summary conviction notice. The notice I got was biligual. But
> the english verbiage told me I had to appear at one of 4 offices in
> the province, between 9-4:30, Monday through Friday to pay. The
> French side informed me that I could got to a website and pay with
> a credit card.
Which did you do? Thanks.
Hatunen
No. But I was in Quebec when the FLQ was still carrying on, doing
stuff like blowing up mailboxes in Anglophone neighborhoods. One
day my wife and I went up on Mount Royal. As a physics student
and engineer and one time ham I was fascinated by the CBC radio
tower and went to take a closer look. As we walked nearer to them
I saw a couple of men reposiioning themselves to be closer to me.
I figured they were Mounties, and that the rolled up rain poncho
in my jacket pocket looked too much like a stick of dynamite.
It was at the tail end of the Revolution Tranquille. Ford motors
announced they were going to switch to using French at the Ste
Therese assembly plant, which had been run solely in English, and
found out their Quebecois workers didn't know the French names
for many of the tools they used.
James
> James <jl...@idirect.com> wrote:
> > I got a speeding ticket there and forgot about it and then was sent
> > a summary conviction notice. The notice I got was biligual. But
> > the english verbiage told me I had to appear at one of 4 offices in
> > the province, between 9-4:30, Monday through Friday to pay. The
> > French side informed me that I could got to a website and pay with
> > a credit card.
>
> Which did you do? Thanks.
I am certainly not bilingual but I am coversant in French.
It was pretty obvious on the French side of the letter that there was
a URL, so I typed it in. The instructions were pretty simple.
James
James
> On Fri, 8 Jan 2010 10:54:19 -0800 (PST), James
>
> <jl...@idirect.com> wrote:
> >Were you in Quebec during the implementation of their language
> >policies? (77-80ish)
>
> No. But I was in Quebec when the FLQ was still carrying on, doing
> stuff like blowing up mailboxes in Anglophone neighborhoods. One
> day my wife and I went up on Mount Royal. As a physics student
> and engineer and one time ham I was fascinated by the CBC radio
> tower and went to take a closer look. As we walked nearer to them
> I saw a couple of men reposiioning themselves to be closer to me.
> I figured they were Mounties, and that the rolled up rain poncho
> in my jacket pocket looked too much like a stick of dynamite.
>
> It was at the tail end of the Revolution Tranquille. Ford motors
> announced they were going to switch to using French at the Ste
> Therese assembly plant, which had been run solely in English, and
> found out their Quebecois workers didn't know the French names
> for many of the tools they used.
I keep forgetting how much older you are Dave....
I was a kid then, but I've always been an avid consumer of news.
I remember the crisis well, I remember the pictures of the army in the
streets. From Ontario it was a little distant, but we all felt uneasy
about terrorism in our own country. I remember hearing the news about
Pierre Laporte.
I have first hand knowledge of that problem in the auto industry. In
the dealerships, the sales contracts are all nicely in french, as
required by law. But the mechanics at the back of the shop still use
english names for many parts.
I wasn't aware Ste Therese had been a Ford plant, or had a Ford plant,
I don't doubt you, again, before my time. I do recall they made
Camaros/Firebirds in Ste Therese for a long time, and the plant shut
after the old versions were shelved. The new ones are made in Oshawa
Ontario. AFAIK, there are no more auto plants in Quebec (maybe some
parts plants). Hyundai built a plant there and closed it.
James