Re: Starving people refuse to eat food aid
trag
> There's several ways for it to work. (One of which involves freight cars
> full of mag tape, but I digress.)
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of mag tape
barreling down the freeway...
Dimensional Traveler
Okay, but can we calculate it?
--
"Dude. They've gone fractal."
Canth
Certainly. I imagine it is no different a calculation to that which
we did of computing the bandwidth of a computer operator carrying a
mag tape between two computers in adjacent rooms.
Compute your total data storage of the mag tapes (big number), = D
compute the distance traveled = S
compute the average speed of travel = V
Bandwidth = D times V divided by S
AS! ds++:+++ a++ c+++ p++ t+ f-- S+ p+ e++ h++ r++ n++ i+ P+ m++ M
Keith F. Lynch
> Compute your total data storage of the mag tapes (big number), = D
Not that large by today's standards. A single standard 1600 bpi 2400
foot tape could hold at most about 0.04 gigabytes. How many can you
fit in a station wagon?
> compute the distance traveled = S
> compute the average speed of travel = V
> Bandwidth = D times V divided by S
But what's the latency?
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Keith F. Lynch
> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Not that large by today's standards. A single standard 1600 bpi
>> 2400 foot tape could hold at most about 0.04 gigabytes.
> Um, Keith, you're doing that thing again.
> Storage capacity of a single T10000B tape: 1 terabyte.
That thing = maintaining context. When Andrew Tanenbaum made his
comment about tapes in a station wagon, 1600 bpi was standard.
David DeLaney
>> compute the distance traveled = S
>> compute the average speed of travel = V
>> Bandwidth = D times V divided by S
>
I've fixed your reference for you.
Dave "well, it's a cognate, at least" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
John Francis
Paul Arthur <flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 2009-12-17, Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
>> Canth <kwar...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>> Compute your total data storage of the mag tapes (big number), = D
>>
>> Not that large by today's standards. A single standard 1600 bpi 2400
>> foot tape could hold at most about 0.04 gigabytes.
>
>
>Storage capacity of a single T10000B tape: 1 terabyte.
1600bpi x 2400' = theoretical max capacity 1600x2400x12 = 46MB.
With normal block sizes this was, indeed, around 40MB, or 0.04GB
R H Draney
>
>On 2009-12-17, Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Paul Arthur <flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>>> Not that large by today's standards. A single standard 1600 bpi
>>>> 2400 foot tape could hold at most about 0.04 gigabytes.
>>
>>> Um, Keith, you're doing that thing again.
>>> Storage capacity of a single T10000B tape: 1 terabyte.
>>
>> That thing = maintaining context. When Andrew Tanenbaum made his
>> comment about tapes in a station wagon, 1600 bpi was standard.
>
>tapes. Which implies now, not some random point in the past.
Does it?...how long has it been since station wagons were commonplace?...r
--
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?
Dimensional Traveler
> Paul Arthur filted:
>> On 2009-12-17, Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>> Paul Arthur <flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>>>> Not that large by today's standards. A single standard 1600 bpi
>>>>> 2400 foot tape could hold at most about 0.04 gigabytes.
>>>> Um, Keith, you're doing that thing again.
>>>> Storage capacity of a single T10000B tape: 1 terabyte.
>>> That thing = maintaining context. When Andrew Tanenbaum made his
>>> comment about tapes in a station wagon, 1600 bpi was standard.
>> The context was calculating the bandwidth of a station wagon full of mag
>> tapes. Which implies now, not some random point in the past.
>
> Does it?...how long has it been since station wagons were commonplace?
>
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> Paul Arthur filted:
>> On 2009-12-17, Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>> Paul Arthur <flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>>>> Not that large by today's standards. A single standard 1600 bpi
>>>>> 2400 foot tape could hold at most about 0.04 gigabytes.
>>>> Um, Keith, you're doing that thing again.
>>>> Storage capacity of a single T10000B tape: 1 terabyte.
>>> That thing = maintaining context. When Andrew Tanenbaum made his
>>> comment about tapes in a station wagon, 1600 bpi was standard.
>> The context was calculating the bandwidth of a station wagon full of mag
>> tapes. Which implies now, not some random point in the past.
>
> Does it?...how long has it been since station wagons were commonplace?...r
I would say that there is very little significant difference between a
Subaru Outback Wagon and a station wagon. And around here Subaru Outback
wagons are the most common vehicle in sight.
Charles
John F. Eldredge
And, a few of us, such as myself, still drive old station wagons. Mine
is 18 years old, and has about 325,000 miles on it (estimated, as the
odometer stopped being reliable at about 300,000 miles).
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
Dorothy J Heydt
John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:15:12 -0800, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>
>> R H Draney wrote:
>>> Paul Arthur filted:
>>>> On 2009-12-17, Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>>>> Paul Arthur <flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Not that large by today's standards. A single standard 1600 bpi
>>>>>>> 2400 foot tape could hold at most about 0.04 gigabytes.
>>>>>> Um, Keith, you're doing that thing again. Storage capacity of a
>>>>>> single T10000B tape: 1 terabyte.
>>>>> That thing = maintaining context. When Andrew Tanenbaum made his
>>>>> comment about tapes in a station wagon, 1600 bpi was standard.
>>>> The context was calculating the bandwidth of a station wagon full of
>>>> mag tapes. Which implies now, not some random point in the past.
>>>
>>> Does it?...how long has it been since station wagons were commonplace?
>>>
>> Replace "station wagon" with "mini-van".
>
>And, a few of us, such as myself, still drive old station wagons. Mine
>is 18 years old, and has about 325,000 miles on it (estimated, as the
>odometer stopped being reliable at about 300,000 miles).
We have a 1968 Dodge van, the kind with extra length between the
front seats and where the rear seats would have been except we
took 'em out long ago. We used to go to SCA events with it
packed to the gills with camping gear: now we take it to
DunDraCon stuffed full of registration equipment (whiteboards,
computers, assorted necessary grunge).
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
Michael Stemper
>On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:15:12 -0800, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> R H Draney wrote:
>>>> The context was calculating the bandwidth of a station wagon full of
>>>> mag tapes. Which implies now, not some random point in the past.
>>>
>>> Does it?...how long has it been since station wagons were commonplace?
>>>
>> Replace "station wagon" with "mini-van".
>
>And, a few of us, such as myself, still drive old station wagons.
Who says station wagons have to be old? Mine's a 2002, with only 140k
on it. It's the third consecutive wagon I've owned. When my son was in
middle school, he told me that his friends were jealous when I would
pick him up in a station wagon. Apparently, wagons were considered cool
since they weren't mini-vans.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
The name of the story is "A Sound of Thunder".
It was written by Ray Bradbury. You're welcome.
Szymon Sokół
> On 2009-12-17, Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>
>> Canth <kwar...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>> Compute your total data storage of the mag tapes (big number), = D
>>
>> Not that large by today's standards. A single standard 1600 bpi 2400
>> foot tape could hold at most about 0.04 gigabytes.
>
> Um, Keith, you're doing that thing again.
>
> Storage capacity of a single T10000B tape: 1 terabyte.
BTW, what is the size of a T10000B?
LTO cartridge dimensions are 102.0 x 105.4 x 21.5 mm = 231.1422 cm³
3.5" hard disk dimensions are 101.6 x 146 x 25.4 mm = 376.77344 cm³
So, if a T10000B is the same size as LTO (or bigger), a 2 TB 3.5" hard disk
provides better data density.
Of course, SDHC memory cards, at 32 x 24 x 2.1 mm = 1.6128 cm³ and the
capacity of 32 GB, beat any and all magnetic media - you can squeeze almost
7.5 TB worth of them into the space a 2 TB hard disk takes.
--
Szymon Sokół (SS316-RIPE) -- Network Manager B
Computer Center, AGH - University of Science and Technology, Cracow, Poland O
http://home.agh.edu.pl/szymon/ PGP key id: RSA: 0x2ABE016B, DSS: 0xF9289982 F
Free speech includes the right not to listen, if not interested -- Heinlein H
Szymon Sokół
> Of course, SDHC memory cards, at 32 x 24 x 2.1 mm = 1.6128 cm³ and the
> capacity of 32 GB, beat any and all magnetic media - you can squeeze almost
> 7.5 TB worth of them into the space a 2 TB hard disk takes.
Make it 64 GB and 15 TB respectively - I have missed the announcement of the
new SDXC card from Toshiba.
cryptoguy
<szy...@bastard.operator.from.hell.pl> wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 20:58:43 +0100, Szymon Sokół wrote:
> > Of course, SDHC memory cards, at 32 x 24 x 2.1 mm = 1.6128 cm³ and the
> > capacity of 32 GB, beat any and all magnetic media - you can squeeze almost
> > 7.5 TB worth of them into the space a 2 TB hard disk takes.
>
> Make it 64 GB and 15 TB respectively - I have missed the announcement of the
> new SDXC card from Toshiba.
That's about half the density of a 16GB microSDHC card, such as the
one in my phone. I believe 32GB in this form factor (15 mm × 11 mm × 1
mm) is coming, which would beat SDXC by another factor of 2.
pt
Szymon Sokół
I feel so out of touch... I could swear that it was *recently* when I was
getting a 4GB microSDHC for *my* cellphone, and it was the largest
available. The progress in this area is amazing.
John Francis
Szymon Sokó� <szy...@bastard.operator.from.hell.pl> wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:41:47 -0800 (PST), cryptoguy wrote:
>
>> On Dec 18, 3:38 pm, Szymon Sokół
>> <szy...@bastard.operator.from.hell.pl> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 20:58:43 +0100, Szymon Sokół wrote:
>>>> Of course, SDHC memory cards, at 32 x 24 x 2.1 mm = 1.6128 cm³ and the
>>>> capacity of 32 GB, beat any and all magnetic media - you can squeeze almost
>>>> 7.5 TB worth of them into the space a 2 TB hard disk takes.
>>>
>>> Make it 64 GB and 15 TB respectively - I have missed the announcement of the
>>> new SDXC card from Toshiba.
>>
>> That's about half the density of a 16GB microSDHC card, such as the
>> one in my phone. I believe 32GB in this form factor (15 mm × 11 mm × 1
>> mm) is coming, which would beat SDXC by another factor of 2.
>
>I feel so out of touch... I could swear that it was *recently* when I was
>getting a 4GB microSDHC for *my* cellphone, and it was the largest
>available. The progress in this area is amazing.
I keep half an eye on this stuff, because digital cameras use flash memory.
Six years ago, when I got my first DSLR, you were paying over $1 per MB for
memory, and 256B was a typical memory size. You could also buy microdrives;
a real rotating disk drive the same size as a slightly thicker Compact Flash
memory card, which was about half the price per byte of flash memory. I got
a couple of 1GB drives maybe a year later (once they got down to $175 each).
Skip forward another couple of years, and 2GB SD cards are commonplace and
cost under $100; overall physical size decreases, typical capacity increases,
and cost per megabyte plummets. Nowadays (another three years later) the sweet
spot on the price scale seems to be at the 8GB or 16GB level (at perhaps $2
per GB for something with decent performance and from a reputable brand name),
and you can get that in the micro-SD form factor.
The top-capacity cards tend to run around 4x the capacity of the sweet spot
(albeit at significantly over 4x the price).
Keith F. Lynch
> I feel so out of touch... I could swear that it was *recently*
> when I was getting a 4GB microSDHC for *my* cellphone, and it was
> the largest available. The progress in this area is amazing.
And it seems very recently that folks in the Eastern Bloc had no
access to computers at all. Russian satellites used vacuum tubes
since they had no transistors. An American went to prison for
exporting an Apple II to the USSR.
Szymon Sokół
> Szymon Sok\303\263\305 <szy...@bastard.operator.from.hell.pl> wrote:
>> I feel so out of touch... I could swear that it was *recently*
>> when I was getting a 4GB microSDHC for *my* cellphone, and it was
>> the largest available. The progress in this area is amazing.
>
> And it seems very recently that folks in the Eastern Bloc had no
> access to computers at all. Russian satellites used vacuum tubes
> since they had no transistors. An American went to prison for
> exporting an Apple II to the USSR.
Uh... for certain definitions of "recently" and "access". The first computer
in Poland was built in 1958. By the '70s computers were quite commonplace,
but those were mainframes and minis. If you meant *personal* computers, then
yes, due to the embargo no NATO country would have sold them to any Warsaw
Pact country until its dissolution. However, there was quite a lot of
smuggling. In 1983 I have got my first computer (a Sinclair ZX Spectrum)
that way: asked a friend of my parents who was often visiting Germany to buy
it there and bring it back in his luggage.
Poland started production of transistors in 1957 - ten years after they were
invented, and the same year Russians launched Sputnik 1, so I really doubt
they used tubes because they had no transistors; I would rather think that
at that time tubes were more reliable or simply better understood by
designers.
Lon
> Paul Arthur <flower...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>>> Not that large by today's standards. A single standard 1600 bpi
>>> 2400 foot tape could hold at most about 0.04 gigabytes.
>
>> Um, Keith, you're doing that thing again.
>> Storage capacity of a single T10000B tape: 1 terabyte.
>
> That thing = maintaining context. When Andrew Tanenbaum made his
> comment about tapes in a station wagon, 1600 bpi was standard.
Possibly, or more possibly 6250 bpi was also available.
Lon
> Szymon Sok\303\263\305 <szy...@bastard.operator.from.hell.pl> wrote:
>> I feel so out of touch... I could swear that it was *recently*
>> when I was getting a 4GB microSDHC for *my* cellphone, and it was
>> the largest available. The progress in this area is amazing.
>
> And it seems very recently that folks in the Eastern Bloc had no
> access to computers at all. Russian satellites used vacuum tubes
> since they had no transistors. An American went to prison for
> exporting an Apple II to the USSR.
And someone once sneered at the use of tubes by the soviets, until
someone asked them to compare the effects of certain events on
semiconductor junctions vs tubes.
cryptoguy
> Szymon Sok\303\263\305 <szy...@bastard.operator.from.hell.pl> wrote:
> > I feel so out of touch... I could swear that it was *recently*
> > when I was getting a 4GB microSDHC for *my* cellphone, and it was
> > the largest available. The progress in this area is amazing.
>
> And it seems very recently that folks in the Eastern Bloc had no
> access to computers at all. Russian satellites used vacuum tubes
> since they had no transistors. An American went to prison for
> exporting an Apple II to the USSR.
Tubes were also used because they were much more resistant to EMP and
other radiation.
pt
Mac
> R H Draney wrote:
> > Paul Arthur filted:
> >> On 2009-12-17, Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> >>>> Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
> >>>>> Not that large by today's standards. A single standard 1600 bpi
> >>>>> 2400 foot tape could hold at most about 0.04 gigabytes.
> >>>> Um, Keith, you're doing that thing again.
> >>>> Storage capacity of a single T10000B tape: 1 terabyte.
> >>> That thing = maintaining context. When Andrew Tanenbaum made his
> >>> comment about tapes in a station wagon, 1600 bpi was standard.
> >> The context was calculating the bandwidth of a station wagon full of mag
> >> tapes. Which implies now, not some random point in the past.
>
> > Does it?...how long has it been since station wagons were commonplace?...r
>
> I would say that there is very little significant difference between a
> Subaru Outback Wagon and a station wagon. And around here Subaru Outback
> wagons are the most common vehicle in sight.
>
> Charles
When did that change? I can remember when outside of Washington
state, Subarus were seen as a sign of social oddity at best, and an
academic career at worst.
Anthony "Kinda like orange Volvos" McCafferty
Charles Wm. Dimmick
I donno. They've been common here in Cheshire, CT for quite some time.
In fact, one used car dealer I know refers to Cheshire as "Subaru
Alley". I remember one Sunday morning very much like tomorrow morning is
going to be like here when we were in the middle of a heavy snow storm
and the only cars that made it to church were four Subarus and a
Landrover. They are VERY good at handling the type of snow we have
around here. As for the Academic part, I certainly remember the Faculty
parking garage at CCSU where every fifth car was a Subaru wagon. And,
since this is AFU, as well as RASF, I should mention that I was at one
AFU meeting where three of the twelve cars present were Subaru.
Charles
Hatunen
I have a 2000 Subaru Forester (I'm thinking about upgrading to a
2010). They're pretty good on the sand and rocks around here,
although their clearance isn't what I might like.
We were down at Rocky Point, Mexico a while back, in company with
another couple who had something like a Ford F-150 4WD (he's a
geologist). Coming back into town from one of the remoter
estuaries we took a wrong turn on the worn places in the desert
sand that pass for roads down there. My wife was driving our
Suburu when we found a three foot high snd dune across the "road"
but the Subaru just sort of skipped over it. But my friend's 4WD
got hung up half way across. We all got out and tried pushing and
all while he spun all four wheels. We finally got him out and he
commented, "I hope this doesn't get around. I had to be rescued
by an old lady in a Subaru."
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Don Freeman
> I have a 2000 Subaru Forester (I'm thinking about upgrading to a
> 2010). They're pretty good on the sand and rocks around here,
> although their clearance isn't what I might like.
>
What is the difference between the Forester and the Subaru Outback.
From the outside they look pretty similar, I think I even saw one that
had both names on it. The Outback is a preferred vehicle for roof top
boat portage but jeez it is expensive.
--
-Don
John F. Eldredge
Given the long wheelbase and low ground clearance of stretch limos, I
wonder how often they end up stuck on a rise with all four wheels off the
ground?
R H Draney
>
>Given the long wheelbase and low ground clearance of stretch limos, I
>wonder how often they end up stuck on a rise with all four wheels off the
>ground?
And how many of those occurrences are somehow associated with the phrase "prom
night"?...r
Mac
> John F. Eldredge filted:
>
>
>
> >Given the long wheelbase and low ground clearance of stretch limos, I
> >wonder how often they end up stuck on a rise with all four wheels off the
> >ground?
>
> And how many of those occurrences are somehow associated with the phrase "prom
> night"?...r
More like "porm night."
Anthony "or something like that McCafferty
Charles Wm. Dimmick
shorter.
Charles
Richard Casady
Some carry a shovel which would have handled that, slowly. A folding
entrenching tool is easy to carry, it is the size of a book.
Casady
David Scheidt
:Some carry a shovel which would have handled that, slowly. A folding
:entrenching tool is easy to carry, it is the size of a book.
it's more macho to die in the desert, thouhg.
--
sig 127
Hatunen
I was in the US Army and please don't remind me of entrenching
tools.
As a practical matter it would have been necessary to remove the
entire dune, including under the truck, which seems pretty
impractical to me., given that he and my wife were in their late
50s and I was 70 yo.
But you are welcome to do such digging.
Hatunen
Well, we were only a few kilometers from the cantina at Oyster
Bay.
Richard Casady
wrote:
>Given the long wheelbase and low ground clearance of stretch limos, I
>wonder how often they end up stuck on a rise with all four wheels off the
>ground?
Given that no driver would be fool enough to take one off road, never.
Casady
David Scheidt
:On 22 Dec 2009 01:15:35 GMT, "John F. Eldredge" <jo...@jfeldredge.com>
:wrote:
http://www.dirtybutton.com/pictures/1367-high-centered-limo/
--
sig 75
Keith F. Lynch
>> never.
> http://www.dirtybutton.com/pictures/1367-high-centered-limo/
A few years ago a cow orker thought he'd show off his new SUV by
driving it up the slope of the snow hill where all the snow in the
parking lot had been plowed, and parking on the top.
It melted its way down and sank out of sight. After the guy spent
all weekend digging a path, he discovered the vehicle was impaled by
ice, and there was no way to remove the ice without disassembling
the vehicle. If I recall correctly, it stayed there until spring.
Scott Lurndal
>On Dec 19, 2:11=A0pm, "Keith F. Lynch" <k...@KeithLynch.net> wrote:
>> Szymon Sok\303\263\305 <szy...@bastard.operator.from.hell.pl> wrote:
>> > when I was getting a 4GB microSDHC for *my* cellphone, and it was
>>
>> And it seems very recently that folks in the Eastern Bloc had no
>> since they had no transistors. =A0An American went to prison for
>> exporting an Apple II to the USSR.
>
>Tubes were also used because they were much more resistant to EMP and
>other radiation.
>
>pt
>
Hence their use in the Shuttle up into the 90's.
scott
Richard Casady
The shovel is for when you are alone. Some insist on traveling in
pairs.
Casady