Calculations involing very large decimals
Charles Richmond
>
> [snipo...] [snip...] [snip...]
>
> About 15 years ago, I wrote a K&R C program that calculated 'e' to 5000
> places, using 8000+bit fixed point math (8 bits to the left of the
> decimal, 8000+ bits to the right). The math lib was written from scratch
> as part of the program, not imported from someone elses program or library.
>
> I regularly use the program even now to benchmark systems; it's a great
> "CPU-intensive" program.
>
> FWIW, I based my code on the description of a program that I read in
> Byte Magazine (a late 80's issue). Steve Wozniak (of Apple Computer
> fame) wrote an article about how he computed 'e' to 50,000 places on an
> Apple ][ computer, using cassette tapes to store the intemediary
> results. In that article, he describes the /technique/ necessary to
> compute 'e' to such a large significance. Find that article, and read it
> (IIRC, it was called "Computing E to 50,000 Places" or something like that).
>
There is a chapter in the book _Programmers at Work_, by Susan
Lammers, Mi$uck Press...that is about Andy Hertzfeld. Wozniak was
Hertzfeld's acknowledged "hero". Hertzfeld told that Woz ran his
program to calculate "e" to 50,000 places on an Apple II computer...
and it took a week. Just before it was supposed to print out the
result, someone knocked the plug out of the wall socket. So Woz
had to start over...but he finally did get his digits of "e".
The program was designed to calculate "e" to enough places to use
*all* the available memory of the Apple II (after the program is
there) to hold the digits. IIRC.
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
Glen Herrmannsfeldt
> Lew Pitcher wrote:
> >
> > [snipo...] [snip...] [snip...]
> >
> > About 15 years ago, I wrote a K&R C program that calculated 'e' to 5000
> > places, using 8000+bit fixed point math (8 bits to the left of the
> > decimal, 8000+ bits to the right). The math lib was written from scratch
> > as part of the program, not imported from someone elses program or
library.
> >
> > I regularly use the program even now to benchmark systems; it's a great
> > "CPU-intensive" program.
I used to know people who assigned this for a college freshman programming
class.
It is relatively easy as multiple precision problems go, as it does not
require division with a multiple precision divisor. If you store some
number of decimal digits in each machine word, it isn't hard to detect
overflow to perform carries, and output conversion is easy, too.
Though I did used to know a binary multiple precision package that would do
the decimal conversion to a printable form. All written in assembler, and
used all the available bits to hold data.
-- glen
Dennis Ritchie
"Charles Richmond" <rich...@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:3EB18992...@ev1.net...
> Lew Pitcher wrote:
...
> > About 15 years ago, I wrote a K&R C program that calculated 'e' to 5000
> > places, using 8000+bit fixed point math (8 bits to the left of the
> > decimal, 8000+ bits to the right). The math lib was written from scratch
> > as part of the program, not imported from someone elses program or library.
> >
> > FWIW, I based my code on the description of a program that I read in
> > Byte Magazine (a late 80's issue). Steve Wozniak (of Apple Computer
> > fame) wrote an article about how he computed 'e' to 50,000 places on an
> > Apple ][ computer, using cassette tapes to store the intemediary
> > results. In that article, he describes the /technique/ necessary to
> > compute 'e' to such a large significance. Find that article, and read it
> > (IIRC, it was called "Computing E to 50,000 Places" or something like that).
> >
> There is a chapter in the book _Programmers at Work_, by Susan
> Lammers, Mi$uck Press...that is about Andy Hertzfeld. Wozniak was
> Hertzfeld's acknowledged "hero". Hertzfeld told that Woz ran his
> program to calculate "e" to 50,000 places on an Apple II computer...
> and it took a week. Just before it was supposed to print out the
> result, someone knocked the plug out of the wall socket. So Woz
> had to start over...but he finally did get his digits of "e".
>
> The program was designed to calculate "e" to enough places to use
> *all* the available memory of the Apple II (after the program is
> there) to hold the digits. IIRC.
Ken Thompson and Bob Morris have a 1975 paper, entitled
"A million digits of e on a minicomputer," describing two such
calculations. The two versions used the same algorithm.
(The basic game is that you already know e-2 exactly:
it is .111... in the mixed-radix notation in which the weight
of digit n is 1/n!).
The first was done about 1972-3 on a PDP-11/20. The interesting
thing is that this machine had no memory protection, rather few
K of memory and was being used for time-sharing at the same time.
It took several months.
The second was on an 11/45 (now with protected memory),
but still time-sharing. This took only a couple of weeks, partly
because the 11/45 was faster, more because they used
the built-in FP instructions to get more bits/operation.
In the end the calculations agreed to about 950K places.
They didn't bother to investigate the discrepancy.
One result was printed out in "serial access form,", i.e.
on roll paper on a TTY33. The other was "random access
form," using a TTY37 with fan-fold paper. Both terminals survived the
~day of continuous printing, but the ribbons were pretty
faint toward the end.
Dennis
arargh...@not.at.enteract.com
<d...@bell-labs.com> wrote:
<snip>
>Both terminals survived the
>~day of continuous printing, but the ribbons were pretty
>faint toward the end.
<story>
This reminded me of someone that I knew back in the late 70's. He was
evaluating printers, looking for a model to sell. His business was
selling and repairing TTY's. He was looking for a dot-matrix printer
that was as reliable. Come to think of it, I think Bell Labs was one
of his customers. (He was based in NJ)
His favorite test, was to load up a box of paper, and start printing.
He told me that most of the printers that he tested died after only a
box or two of paper. One printer he gave up on. It never died. I
still have two of that model. Working. One of them is used as a
status printer on my alarm system. The other is a spare.
</story>
--
Arargh at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
Basic Compiler Samples Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/basic.html
To reply by email, change the domain name, and remove the garbage.
CBFalconer
> "Dennis Ritchie" <d...@bell-labs.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Both terminals survived the
> > ~day of continuous printing, but the ribbons were pretty
> > faint toward the end.
>
> <story>
> This reminded me of someone that I knew back in the late 70's. He
> was evaluating printers, looking for a model to sell. His business
> was selling and repairing TTY's. He was looking for a dot-matrix
> printer that was as reliable. Come to think of it, I think Bell
> Labs was one of his customers. (He was based in NJ)
>
> His favorite test, was to load up a box of paper, and start
> printing. He told me that most of the printers that he tested died
> after only a box or two of paper. One printer he gave up on. It
> never died. I still have two of that model. Working. One of
> them is used as a status printer on my alarm system. The other is
> a spare.
> </story>
The first /reliable/ printer at a reasonable price that I
encountered was the Epson MX80. IIRC the early ones went for
something in the $300..$500 range, and took very little care and
feeding. I have an RX80 somewhere still.
--
Chuck F (cbfal...@yahoo.com) (cbfal...@worldnet.att.net)
Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
<http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!
arargh...@not.at.enteract.com
wrote:
>arargh...@NOT.AT.enteract.com wrote:
>> "Dennis Ritchie" <d...@bell-labs.com> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> > Both terminals survived the
>> > ~day of continuous printing, but the ribbons were pretty
>> > faint toward the end.
>>
>> <story>
>> This reminded me of someone that I knew back in the late 70's. He
>> was evaluating printers, looking for a model to sell. His business
>> was selling and repairing TTY's. He was looking for a dot-matrix
>> printer that was as reliable. Come to think of it, I think Bell
>> Labs was one of his customers. (He was based in NJ)
>>
>> His favorite test, was to load up a box of paper, and start
>> printing. He told me that most of the printers that he tested died
>> after only a box or two of paper. One printer he gave up on. It
>> never died. I still have two of that model. Working. One of
>> them is used as a status printer on my alarm system. The other is
>> a spare.
>> </story>
>
>The first /reliable/ printer at a reasonable price that I
>encountered was the Epson MX80. IIRC the early ones went for
>something in the $300..$500 range, and took very little care and
>feeding. I have an RX80 somewhere still.
The printer in my little story was an Okidata ML 82a. Considering
that I am still using it after 25 years, I would say that it also was
reliable. The only problem is going to be finding another print head
when the current one wears out, again. Also, I think I have a
rebadged Epson of that vintage sitting around. Still working. Also
some little slow HP 80 col printer. With an odd instruction set. But
thats HP.
Nick Spalding
> arargh...@NOT.AT.enteract.com wrote:
> > "Dennis Ritchie" <d...@bell-labs.com> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > Both terminals survived the
> > > ~day of continuous printing, but the ribbons were pretty
> > > faint toward the end.
> >
> > <story>
> > This reminded me of someone that I knew back in the late 70's. He
> > was evaluating printers, looking for a model to sell. His business
> > was selling and repairing TTY's. He was looking for a dot-matrix
> > printer that was as reliable. Come to think of it, I think Bell
> > Labs was one of his customers. (He was based in NJ)
> >
> > His favorite test, was to load up a box of paper, and start
> > printing. He told me that most of the printers that he tested died
> > after only a box or two of paper. One printer he gave up on. It
> > never died. I still have two of that model. Working. One of
> > them is used as a status printer on my alarm system. The other is
> > a spare.
> > </story>
>
> The first /reliable/ printer at a reasonable price that I
> encountered was the Epson MX80. IIRC the early ones went for
> something in the $300..$500 range, and took very little care and
> feeding. I have an RX80 somewhere still.
I have a Citizen 120D which was a near clone of one of that series still in
working order.
--
Nick Spalding
Pete Fenelon
>> encountered was the Epson MX80. IIRC the early ones went for
>> something in the $300..$500 range, and took very little care and
>> feeding. I have an RX80 somewhere still.
>
> I have a Citizen 120D which was a near clone of one of that series still in
> working order.
Likewise, I have an ancient Panasonic KXP1080 (or 1081? - can't
remember, it's buried in my spare room) which is an enhanced
MX80 clone. Bit of a boat-anchor these days as I've got a lovely
Xerox C20... (Actually, Panasonic build sturdy stuff generally -
for a brand that lacks the cachet and perceived quality of Sony,
their consumer electronics are generally pretty damn good - I've
had very good experience with their TVs and monitors...)
pete
--
pe...@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins
<arargh...@NOT.AT.enteract.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 02 May 2003 07:56:27 GMT, CBFalconer <cbfal...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>arargh...@NOT.AT.enteract.com wrote:
>>> His favorite test, was to load up a box of paper, and start
>>> printing. He told me that most of the printers that he tested died
>>> after only a box or two of paper. One printer he gave up on. It
>>> never died. I still have two of that model. Working. One of
>>> them is used as a status printer on my alarm system. The other is
>>> a spare.
>>The first /reliable/ printer at a reasonable price that I
>>encountered was the Epson MX80. IIRC the early ones went for
>>something in the $300..$500 range, and took very little care and
>>feeding. I have an RX80 somewhere still.
>The printer in my little story was an Okidata ML 82a. Considering
>that I am still using it after 25 years, I would say that it also was
>reliable.
I was going to ask if it was that model the moment I saw your post (but
followed the thread to see :)
There was also a 92, with a wider carriage.
Then they came out with the 182 and 192 to "replace" them, and it was
all over :(
The original apple Imagewriter was also a workhorse; the Imagewriter II
was no match for it.
hawk
--
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign
doc...@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \
Steve O'Hara-Smith
arargh...@NOT.AT.enteract.com wrote:
AAEC> One printer he gave up on. It never died. I
AAEC> still have two of that model. Working.
Epson I presume ?
--
C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors
The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see:
| http://www.sohara.org/
Charlie Gibbs
arargh...@NOT.AT.enteract.com (ararghNOSPAM) writes:
>On Fri, 02 May 2003 07:56:27 GMT, CBFalconer <cbfal...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>The first /reliable/ printer at a reasonable price that I
>>encountered was the Epson MX80. IIRC the early ones went for
>>something in the $300..$500 range, and took very little care and
>>feeding. I have an RX80 somewhere still.
>
>The printer in my little story was an Okidata ML 82a. Considering
>that I am still using it after 25 years, I would say that it also was
>reliable.
I still come across one occasionally, sitting in some corner just
waiting to print whatever comes along. When I got involved in
telephone call data recording in the mid '80s they were ubiquitous.
A good, solid unit.
--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Charlie Gibbs
(Pete Fenelon) writes:
>Nick Spalding <spal...@iol.ie> wrote:
>
>>> encountered was the Epson MX80. IIRC the early ones went for
>>> something in the $300..$500 range, and took very little care and
>>> feeding. I have an RX80 somewhere still.
>>
>> I have a Citizen 120D which was a near clone of one of that series
>> still in working order.
>
> Likewise, I have an ancient Panasonic KXP1080 (or 1081? - can't
> remember, it's buried in my spare room) which is an enhanced
> MX80 clone. Bit of a boat-anchor these days as I've got a lovely
> Xerox C20...
I still occasionally haul out my KX-P1124 when I need to run some
tests to a straightforward non-PostScript, non-PCL, non-Winprinter.
It cost me $600 when I bought it - but hey, a 24-pin dot-matrix
printer was hot stuff at the time. (Various Panasonic models were
also sold under the Roland name with different model numbers.)
> (Actually, Panasonic build sturdy stuff generally - for a brand
> that lacks the cachet and perceived quality of Sony, their
> consumer electronics are generally pretty damn good - I've
> had very good experience with their TVs and monitors...)
Yes, they've always managed to quietly do a pretty good job of
whatever they try.
Stan Barr
<arargh...@NOT.AT.enteract.com> wrote:
>The printer in my little story was an Okidata ML 82a. Considering
>that I am still using it after 25 years, I would say that it also was
>reliable.
I had an Oki Microline bought in '82. That's still in use, but not by me.
My Star NL-10, mid '80s, is still in everyday use after printing boxes and
boxes of paper over the years, and I know of another one that has spent the
last 15 years printing labels every day. Also very reliable...
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com
(Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.)
The future was never like this!
jchausler
"Dr. Richard E. Hawkins" wrote:
> >>The first /reliable/ printer at a reasonable price that I
> >>encountered was the Epson MX80. IIRC the early ones went for
> >>something in the $300..$500 range, and took very little care and
> >>feeding. I have an RX80 somewhere still.
>
> >The printer in my little story was an Okidata ML 82a. Considering
> >that I am still using it after 25 years, I would say that it also was
> >reliable.
>
> I was going to ask if it was that model the moment I saw your post (but
> followed the thread to see :)
>
> There was also a 92, with a wider carriage.
A customer of ours got a whole "pile" of 92's as
recently as 1999 to use as serial port printers (there
was a required adapter car in the printer IIRC).
This was in a very "industrial" environment with
"users" who would likely "hit" the printer if it
didn't work. To my knowledge they're still
all working fine. As to the MX-80, I tried to
buy one shortly after they first came out but
they were back logged. Instead the dealer sold
me an MX-100 (with GRAFTRAX :-) and
although I rarely use it anymore, it still works
or at least did the last time I turned it on a year
or so ago. When I first got it, I did have
problems with the print head and went through
a couple pretty quickly under warranty.
Chris
AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE
$$
Chris Adams
>Yes, they've always managed to quietly do a pretty good job of
>whatever they try.
I thought you were talking about dot matrix printers? "quietly"?
--
Chris Adams <cma...@hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
Glen Herrmannsfeldt
"Chris Adams" <cma...@hiwaay.net> wrote in message
news:vb5l102...@corp.supernews.com...
> Once upon a time, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> said:
> >Yes, they've always managed to quietly do a pretty good job of
> >whatever they try.
>
> I thought you were talking about dot matrix printers? "quietly"?
Compared to chain printers like the 1403 they were pretty quiet. The 1403
has a sound absorbing box, too.
-- glen
Russell Wallace
<d...@bell-labs.com> wrote:
>In the end the calculations agreed to about 950K places.
>They didn't bother to investigate the discrepancy.
I'd find that highly disconcerting. Did anyone come up with a guess as
to whether it was likely to be a program bug or hardware glitch?
--
"Sore wa himitsu desu."
To reply by email, remove
the small snack from address.
http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace
arargh...@not.at.enteract.com
(Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote:
>In article <1ge4bvcrjj06qklqq...@4ax.com>,
> <arargh...@NOT.AT.enteract.com> wrote:
>>On Fri, 02 May 2003 07:56:27 GMT, CBFalconer <cbfal...@yahoo.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>arargh...@NOT.AT.enteract.com wrote:
>
>>>> His favorite test, was to load up a box of paper, and start
>>>> printing. He told me that most of the printers that he tested died
>>>> after only a box or two of paper. One printer he gave up on. It
>>>> never died. I still have two of that model. Working. One of
>>>> them is used as a status printer on my alarm system. The other is
>>>> a spare.
>
>>>The first /reliable/ printer at a reasonable price that I
>>>encountered was the Epson MX80. IIRC the early ones went for
>>>something in the $300..$500 range, and took very little care and
>>>feeding. I have an RX80 somewhere still.
>
>>The printer in my little story was an Okidata ML 82a. Considering
>>that I am still using it after 25 years, I would say that it also was
>>reliable.
>
>I was going to ask if it was that model the moment I saw your post (but
>followed the thread to see :)
>
>There was also a 92, with a wider carriage.
The 83 was the wide version of the 82a, I think that the 92 was later.
>
>Then they came out with the 182 and 192 to "replace" them, and it was
>all over :(
I have a couple of 182's that still work. I am saving them for spares
for my garage/gas station. The garage has an wheel alignment system
that uses a modified bios version of a 182, and if it dies . . .
I have already fixed it once.
>
>The original apple Imagewriter was also a workhorse; the Imagewriter II
>was no match for it.
How about a Centronics 101 printer? They seem to last, also.
I should see if mine still works.
Nah, too loud.
Wizzzzzzz-thump. Repeat until you have to leave the room.
arargh...@not.at.enteract.com
<ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 02 May 2003 00:37:04 -0500
>arargh...@NOT.AT.enteract.com wrote:
>
>AAEC> One printer he gave up on. It never died. I
>AAEC> still have two of that model. Working.
>
> Epson I presume ?
No, Okidata.
Brian Inglis
I remember seeing the Matsushita (aka Panasonic/Quasar) name on a
number of parts in IBM equipment used 24x7, so they're probably
pretty reliable (on the order of 10 years with zero failures).
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada
--
Brian....@CSi.com (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca)
fake address use address above to reply
Charles Shannon Hendrix
In alt.folklore.computers, you wrote:
> I still occasionally haul out my KX-P1124 when I need to run some
> tests to a straightforward non-PostScript, non-PCL, non-Winprinter.
> It cost me $600 when I bought it - but hey, a 24-pin dot-matrix
> printer was hot stuff at the time. (Various Panasonic models were
> also sold under the Roland name with different model numbers.)
I used to have one of those. Ran perfectly for years until I sold it.
Should have kept it. Noisy though.
I had a Star 10 that lasted many thousands of pages and 8 years before
one of the print wires started misfiring.
I'd like to have a reliable impact printer now. I prefer those
printouts for code and things like database listings.
I have an inkjet, and even at $8 a shot, the cartridges are still
expensive if you print very much. Ironically, if you do NOT print
often, they don't work well. You need to print at least once a week or
two to keep them wet, or whatever it is they need.
> Yes, they've always managed to quietly do a pretty good job of
> whatever they try.
They have some cool stuff in Japan that they don't sell over here, which
I'd like to see in the US market.
Someone told me lately their laptops have fallen in quality, but I have
never verified this.
CBFalconer
>
... snip ...
>
> I had a Star 10 that lasted many thousands of pages and 8 years
> before one of the print wires started misfiring.
>
> I'd like to have a reliable impact printer now. I prefer those
> printouts for code and things like database listings.
>
> I have an inkjet, and even at $8 a shot, the cartridges are still
> expensive if you print very much. Ironically, if you do NOT
> print often, they don't work well. You need to print at least
> once a week or two to keep them wet, or whatever it is they need.
There is no excuse for not having a Laser printer today. Some
models go for under $200 (US) today, and combined with such
utilities as Fineprint (for booklet output) are very economical.
Mine sits there gobbling up 5 to 10 watts in standby mode, and
still gets first sheets out after warm-up time as quickly as an
inkjet.
The only reason for an inkjet is color. Their operating costs and
reliability are out of this world, in the evilest sense.
arargh...@not.at.enteract.com
wrote:
<snip>
>There is no excuse for not having a Laser printer today. Some
>models go for under $200 (US) today, and combined with such
>utilities as Fineprint (for booklet output) are very economical.
>Mine sits there gobbling up 5 to 10 watts in standby mode, and
>still gets first sheets out after warm-up time as quickly as an
>inkjet.
But for some kinds of source listings, fanfold works better than loose
pages.
>
>The only reason for an inkjet is color. Their operating costs and
>reliability are out of this world, in the evilest sense.
--
Pete Fenelon
>> Yes, they've always managed to quietly do a pretty good job of
>> whatever they try.
>
> They have some cool stuff in Japan that they don't sell over here, which
> I'd like to see in the US market.
>
> Someone told me lately their laptops have fallen in quality, but I have
> never verified this.
>
Almost everyone's have. A laptop seems to be perceived as a status item,
and therefore not one anyone who is correctly attuned to the consumer
zeitgeist would want to keep for more than a couple of years.
They don't merely have built-in obsolescence - they have built in "it
doesn't work any more"...
grey...@yahoo.com
>> printouts for code and things like database listings.
I had a reliable dotmatrix, children objected to the noise, which
resembled a dentists drill. One company had a special room for the
printers, which was handy for someone who liked to read others
printouts.
>>
>> I have an inkjet, and even at $8 a shot, the cartridges are still
>> expensive if you print very much. Ironically, if you do NOT
>> print often, they don't work well. You need to print at least
>> once a week or two to keep them wet, or whatever it is they need.
>
> There is no excuse for not having a Laser printer today. Some
> models go for under $200 (US) today, and combined with such
> utilities as Fineprint (for booklet output) are very economical.
> Mine sits there gobbling up 5 to 10 watts in standby mode, and
> still gets first sheets out after warm-up time as quickly as an
> inkjet.
I got an OKI, daughter brought it with her when she moved out, then
bought a LexMark E320, daughter moved back in, Lexmark cost about
300euros, new toner catridge cost 170euros. Children we have forever,
well almost, printers vary.
>
> The only reason for an inkjet is color. Their operating costs and
> reliability are out of this world, in the evilest sense.
>
--
greymaus
Steve O'Hara-Smith
C> The only reason for an inkjet is color. Their operating costs and
C> reliability are out of this world, in the evilest sense.
I have found that the reliability of inkjets is variable, some
are crud but the one on my desk now has been fine for a good while now and
sports a duplexer which is nice. Cost per page is nearly irrelevant to me,
because total annual printing costs are minimal. It isn't colour so much
as versatility that sends me to the inkjets, lasers are for bulk.
Steve O'Hara-Smith
arargh...@NOT.AT.enteract.com wrote:
AAEC> On Fri, 2 May 2003 18:16:13 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith
AAEC> <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
AAEC> > Epson I presume ?
AAEC> No, Okidata.
I confess surprise - I always had Epson dot matrix printers in
the 'cannot be worn out' category having seen some pretty determined
attempts at doing so fail.
Steve O'Hara-Smith
cma...@hiwaay.net (Chris Adams) wrote:
CA> Once upon a time, Charlie Gibbs <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> said:
CA> >Yes, they've always managed to quietly do a pretty good job of
CA> >whatever they try.
CA>
CA> I thought you were talking about dot matrix printers? "quietly"?
Quieter than the daisy wheel, and a lot quieter than the 1403
with the hood up.
Anne & Lynn Wheeler
> I remember seeing the Matsushita (aka Panasonic/Quasar) name on a
> number of parts in IBM equipment used 24x7, so they're probably
> pretty reliable (on the order of 10 years with zero failures).
slightly related ... although a little drift
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003h.html#0 Escon vs Ficon Cost
the following ref trip was a couple years before the time-frame
mentioned in the above:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#33b High Speed Data Transport (HSDT)
it was first time i walked a surface mount assembly line (outside
osaka). I watched the boards pass under this line ... and it was
almost like it was spraying black paint on the board. there was a
rumor that a single surface mount assembly machine might exist in the
US at the time ... but the rumor was standard chips that had the pins
cut-off flush with the bottom of the chip (as opposed to surface mount
chips). surface mount implied that you could paint both sides of the
board with chips .... and real surface mount with the contacts
directly underneath the chips, implied that you could pack them closer
together on the board.
at the time, I was dealing with these $6k modems and I claimed I could
get better FEC (reed-solomon) and optical drivers in a $300 cd player
... and the servo-motor was for free.
other refs related to the optical drivers:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#23 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#25 ESCON Data Transfer Rate
there were some numbers from the time that because of the volumes in
the consumer electronic industry ... that better QA up-front had
bigger pay-off vis-a-vis the computer industry (modulo issues of
mechanical parts and duty cycles). Possibly some idea that higher
profit margin in the computer industry tolerated a much higher
scrap/failure. on the other hand it might just be similar to what hit
the auto industry.
random surface mount ref:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#27 End of Moore's law and how it can influence job market
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
Internet trivia 20th anv http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/rfcietff.htm
arargh...@not.at.enteract.com
<ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 02 May 2003 17:00:38 -0500
>arargh...@NOT.AT.enteract.com wrote:
>
>AAEC> On Fri, 2 May 2003 18:16:13 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith
>AAEC> <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>AAEC> > Epson I presume ?
>AAEC> No, Okidata.
>
> I confess surprise - I always had Epson dot matrix printers in
>the 'cannot be worn out' category having seen some pretty determined
>attempts at doing so fail.
I don't know if he ever tested any Epsons. The testing occured around
1977-78, IIRC. Maybe a bit later. I could get a more exact date, as I
should still have the invoice for when I bought my printer. But that
would require digging around in some old files.
It was later. I just checked the dates on the printers, and they are
05/81 and 06/82. So the testing must have been in late 80 or early
81. If it makes any difference.
Charles Shannon Hendrix
> There is no excuse for not having a Laser printer today. Some
> models go for under $200 (US) today,
Maybe, but I find the low end lasers are pretty cheap and flimsy. They
seem to really cut corners on the feed mechanism. I talked to someone
who swears by their little Samsung unit, but they admitted that text
could be better, and it didn't always feed straight.
I also want PostScript.
I have given a lot of thought to a used HP with a PostScript mod, or
maybe one of those Brother's with PostScript.
I do plan to get a laser, but right now I don't print enough to make
the inkjet costly. Of course, some of the reason I don't print much is
because the inkjet is costly... :)
> and combined with such utilities as Fineprint (for booklet output) are
> very economical.
I can't use booklet output for code. But sometimes I use two pages per,
and sometimes I do that on both sides.
> The only reason for an inkjet is color.
I do print color now and then. The problem is, I don't want to print
color often enough to keep the print heads in good condition.
> Their operating costs and reliability are out of this world, in the
> evilest sense.
No argument there. They really cost a lot.
It's really too bad they've almost quit making those industrial strength
injkets. I know someone who got one. Unlike the consumer stuff, his
has very few problems. Plus, the printer gets its ink from large,
external ink reservoirs. He buys ink by the bucket at a price that
would make my $8 cartridge about $0.25.
It will crank out 12ppm all day long.
I notided about 2 years ago they started disappearing from the stores
around here, and now several models are gone.
I talked to someone who was going to get four for them after testing one
for 4 months, and found he couldn't get them anymore.
You can modify some of the larger inkjets they have now to use external
ink, but they don't have near the feed or printhead reliability.
Charles Shannon Hendrix
grey...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I had a reliable dotmatrix, children objected to the noise, which
> resembled a dentists drill. One company had a special room for the
> printers, which was handy for someone who liked to read others
> printouts.
I worked for a minicomputer shop, and most of the impact printers were
placed in closets or in the A/C shafts around the building, to kill the
noise.
Some of them had 6 printheads and were very fast and loud.
Charlie Gibbs
(Charles Shannon Hendrix) writes:
> In alt.folklore.computers, you wrote:
>
>> There is no excuse for not having a Laser printer today. Some
>> models go for under $200 (US) today,
>
> Maybe, but I find the low end lasers are pretty cheap and flimsy.
> They seem to really cut corners on the feed mechanism. I talked to
> someone who swears by their little Samsung unit, but they admitted
> that text could be better, and it didn't always feed straight.
>
> I also want PostScript.
>
> I have given a lot of thought to a used HP with a PostScript mod,
> or maybe one of those Brother's with PostScript.
I've been seeing HP IIPs in used computer stores around here, going
for a song. We got a IIP when it was new (and cost fairly big bucks),
then shelled out some more for a Pacific Page PostScript cartridge.
I don't know whether such cartridges are still available, but our
combo shows signs of lasting forever. The printer has broken down
a couple of times, but a quick trip to the local repair shop and
it's back in service once more.
CBFalconer
> In alt.folklore.computers, you wrote:
>
... snip ...
>
> > and combined with such utilities as Fineprint (for booklet
> > output) are very economical.
>
> I can't use booklet output for code. But sometimes I use two
> pages per, and sometimes I do that on both sides.
You should try Fineprint. You might be surprised. For some
things I output to a (figurative) 14 x 11 page, which gets
remapped to a booklet page of 5.5 x 8.5, and dumped 2 per side, 4
per sheet. My eyes can stand the reduction. That gives me the
old fashioned 132 char line listings without decimating the trees,
and the results are easily filed away.
Bruce B. Reynolds
<ste...@eircom.net> writes:
> I confess surprise - I always had Epson dot matrix printers in
>the 'cannot be worn out' category having seen some pretty determined
>attempts at doing so fail.
Best effort at "cannot be worn out" is a Datasouth DS-180.
--
Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA
Bruce B. Reynolds
> I confess surprise - I always had Epson dot matrix printers in
>the 'cannot be worn out' category having seen some pretty determined
>attempts at doing so fail.
Best effort at "cannot be worn out" is a Datasouth DS-180.
Charles Shannon Hendrix
> I've been seeing HP IIPs in used computer stores around here, going
> for a song.
That would be cool, if we had used computer stores.
Sigh...
The last good one died 2 years ago, and it had little but junk the last
few years.
The computer shows all suck now. They used to be great around here, but
they've become very narrow in product focus, and even the PC stuff they
do sell is often mainstream junk. Very few of the vendors now carry the
high end stuff like they did 5 years ago.
> We got a IIP when it was new (and cost fairly big bucks),
Not a bad printer.
I've seen the IV's pretty cheap too, but they are huge.
Bruce B. Reynolds
> I confess surprise - I always had Epson dot matrix printers in
>the 'cannot be worn out' category having seen some pretty determined
>attempts at doing so fail.
Best effort at "cannot be worn out" is a Datasouth DS-180.
arargh...@not.at.enteract.com
Reynolds) wrote:
>In article <20030503082231....@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith
><ste...@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> I confess surprise - I always had Epson dot matrix printers in
>>the 'cannot be worn out' category having seen some pretty determined
>>attempts at doing so fail.
>
>Best effort at "cannot be worn out" is a Datasouth DS-180.
They were good. But not three times worth. :-)
Bruce B. Reynolds
> I confess surprise - I always had Epson dot matrix printers in
>the 'cannot be worn out' category having seen some pretty determined
>attempts at doing so fail.
Best effort at "cannot be worn out" is a Datasouth DS-180.
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
> There is no excuse for not having a Laser printer today. Some
> models go for under $200 (US) today, and combined with such
> utilities as Fineprint (for booklet output) are very economical.
> Mine sits there gobbling up 5 to 10 watts in standby mode, and
> still gets first sheets out after warm-up time as quickly as an
> inkjet.
I bought my HP LaserJet IIP in 1988; it's still going strong. Mind you,
it did cost GBP1000 (including VAT) and that was *after* an "academic
discount". It's given sterling service; in the intervening 15 years,
I've replaced the feed clutch (USD16), a gear in the paper pickup path
(GBP5) and [very recently] the scanner motor (USD50).
I can heartily recommend http://www.fixyourownprinter.com and Moe's
excellent "hand-holding".
> The only reason for an inkjet is color. Their operating costs and
> reliability are out of this world, in the evilest sense.
Indeed so.
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} b...@dsl.co.uk
"We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are
untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them".
George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919
CBFalconer
>
... snip ...
Looks useful. However I can get nothing from their message
searching facility except a summary list. The individual messages
are just blanks.
I was hoping to find a way to make the Samsung 4500 work under
DOS. It connects over a parallel port, so there must be some sort
of protocol, even if it is bit bashing.
Brian Inglis
CBFalconer <cbfal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
>>
>... snip ...
>>
>> I can heartily recommend http://www.fixyourownprinter.com and Moe's
>> excellent "hand-holding".
>
>Looks useful. However I can get nothing from their message
>searching facility except a summary list. The individual messages
>are just blanks.
>
>I was hoping to find a way to make the Samsung 4500 work under
>DOS. It connects over a parallel port, so there must be some sort
>of protocol, even if it is bit bashing.
You may know this, as you've been trying to get this going for
over two years (according to google):
Windows GDI printer, drivers only for Win 3.1, 9x, NT 4, Mandrake
CUPS, RH gpr, SuSE Linux CUPS or 8.0 YaST2, and GhostScript 5.5+.
You might want to look at some of the code referenced at:
http://hesweb1.med.virginia.edu/biostat/s/linux.setup-body.html#printing
PDQ, LPRng, and apsfilters are also recommended for flexibility
on *n*x.
The problem is not the fact that you need rendered bits to send
over the parallel port, but you need to format the bits in a
particular way for each of these types of printers, to be
recognized as control and data messages by that printer.
It would be nice if all GDI LOSEprinters at least supported the
HP PCL subset of reset and bitmap data escape sequences and data
formats, instead of reinventing yet another different square
wheel.
CBFalconer
> > DOS. It connects over a parallel port, so there must be some
> > sort of protocol, even if it is bit bashing.
>
> You may know this, as you've been trying to get this going for
> over two years (according to google):
> Windows GDI printer, drivers only for Win 3.1, 9x, NT 4, Mandrake
> CUPS, RH gpr, SuSE Linux CUPS or 8.0 YaST2, and GhostScript 5.5+.
> You might want to look at some of the code referenced at:
> http://hesweb1.med.virginia.edu/biostat/s/linux.setup-body.html#printing
> PDQ, LPRng, and apsfilters are also recommended for flexibility
> on *n*x.
Well, I haven't been working very hard at it :-) I would like
something that documents "This sequence does that" at the actual
port.
Bill Marcum
<cbfal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Well, I haven't been working very hard at it :-) I would like
> something that documents "This sequence does that" at the actual
> port.
>
drivers.
--
bill marcum the mushroom-eating laboratory monkey
What kind of monkey are you? http://thesurrealist.co.uk/monkey.cgi
Steve Burton
wrote:
>On Fri, 2 May 2003 18:16:13 +0200, Steve O'Hara-Smith
><ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 02 May 2003 00:37:04 -0500
>>arargh...@NOT.AT.enteract.com wrote:
>>
>>AAEC> One printer he gave up on. It never died. I
>>AAEC> still have two of that model. Working.
>>
>> Epson I presume ?
>No, Okidata.
We still use Oki ML321's for printing cheques, labels and delivery
tickets. They seem to last about eight years before the nylon gear
that drives the platen is too mangled to work. Takes about ten minutes
to replace. We also use OKI LED printers for general A4 monochrome
printing and they also last well except in one regional office where
they break the lid retaining clips in weeks and you can't buy those
(have to buy the whole lid) :-(. This is Model 14N (I think) which has
ethernet, serial and parallel interfaces (we use serial to connect to
terminal servers for a legacy system) and they have postscript. The
model has been replaced with a faster and cheaper one now so we'll
start again evaluating for reliability. The colour model seem reliable
but we've only been using those for a couple of years and they've
changed those models too (faster and cheaper). When they introduced
colour they decided to build on the engine they already had so they
put four of them in-line on for each colour, fours toners *and* four
drums so there's no need for multiple passes or photo-sensitive belts.
Very neat.
Steve.
who has no connection to OKI Corp.
Steve Burton
Reynolds) wrote:
>In article <20030503082231....@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith
><ste...@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> I confess surprise - I always had Epson dot matrix printers in
>>the 'cannot be worn out' category having seen some pretty determined
>>attempts at doing so fail.
>
>Best effort at "cannot be worn out" is a Datasouth DS-180.
Well I'm not certain what happened here. I typed a long(ish) message
earlier and now it's 'no longer available' but I did get four copies
of Bruce's message!
The jist was that we still use Okidata ml321's for cheques and labels
and I really like their LED printers.
Steve.
CBFalconer
> On Wed, 07 May 2003 13:09:45 GMT, CBFalconer
> >
> > something that documents "This sequence does that" at the actual
> > port.
> >
> Your best bet would probably be to find the source code for the
> Ghostscript drivers.
(about driving the Samsung laser from DOS)
GS doesn't drive it. It converts everything to a bit map and
ships that via the Windoze graphics driver.
Tim Shoppa
> The original apple Imagewriter was also a workhorse; the Imagewriter II
> was no match for it.
Something in my head tells me that original Imagewriter was based on
the mechanics from the IDS Paper Tiger. Wasn't there a variant that
did color in the early 80's?
Tim.
Tim Shoppa
> ha...@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote in message news:<b8u2bi$1hk8$1...@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>...
> > The original apple Imagewriter was also a workhorse; the Imagewriter II
> > was no match for it.
>
> Something in my head tells me that original Imagewriter was based on
> the mechanics from the IDS Paper Tiger.
No, wait, after time for my memory refresh, I'm sure it was a C.Itoh
mechanism.
My IDS 440 died in 1998, after nearly twenty years of use. Too bad, mine
had the serial interface which is also something not-so-easy-to-find on
today's printers.
Tim.
CBFalconer
> > > Imagewriter II was no match for it.
> >
> > Something in my head tells me that original Imagewriter was
> > based on the mechanics from the IDS Paper Tiger.
>
> No, wait, after time for my memory refresh, I'm sure it was a
> C.Itoh mechanism.
>
> My IDS 440 died in 1998, after nearly twenty years of use.
> Too bad, mine had the serial interface which is also something
> not-so-easy-to-find on today's printers.
Not only did the Epson MX80 have a serial interface, it had a
current loop interface. These were very handy when driving them
down 2 miles of leased telco pairs.
Peter Ingham
wrote:
>sho...@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote in message news:<bec993c8.03050...@posting.google.com>...
>> ha...@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote in message news:<b8u2bi$1hk8$1...@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>...
>> > The original apple Imagewriter was also a workhorse; the Imagewriter II
>> > was no match for it.
>>
>> Something in my head tells me that original Imagewriter was based on
>> the mechanics from the IDS Paper Tiger.
>
>No, wait, after time for my memory refresh, I'm sure it was a C.Itoh
>mechanism.
>
I think you are right. The printer was the C.ITOH 8510.
>Tim.
--
Please remove '_SpamTrap' when replying. You know why :-(
Peter Ingham
Lower Hutt
New Zealand
Charles Richmond
will emulate an Epson and has an *optional* serial interface
plug-in board. The company where I used to work...used these
printers for bills of lading.
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
Charles Richmond
Frank McConnell
> the mechanics from the IDS Paper Tiger. Wasn't there a variant that
> did color in the early 80's?
You are thinking of the IDS Prism.
On the other tentacle there was the predecessor to the Paper Tiger,
a thing called the BrighterWriter. It's probably better forgotten,
but maybe someone will learn from its mistakes.
1) Its carriage was 8.5" wide, but this included the tractor-feed
holes.
2) Its graphics mode was entered and exited by sending a 0x03 (^C)
character to the printer. In graphics mode, the low seven bits of
bytes sent were used to directly drive print head pins for one
pin-wide column. So you want only the bottom two pins to fire?
Whoops, there you are back in text mode.
-Frank McConnell
David Powell
Peter Ingham <ping_S...@3days.co.nz> in alt.folklore.computers
wrote:
>On 8 May 2003 06:24:44 -0700, sho...@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
>wrote:
>
>>sho...@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote in message news:<bec993c8.03050...@posting.google.com>...
>>> ha...@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote in message news:<b8u2bi$1hk8$1...@f04n12.cac.psu.edu>...
>>> > The original apple Imagewriter was also a workhorse; the Imagewriter II
>>> > was no match for it.
>>>
>>> Something in my head tells me that original Imagewriter was based on
>>> the mechanics from the IDS Paper Tiger.
>>
>>No, wait, after time for my memory refresh, I'm sure it was a C.Itoh
>>mechanism.
>>
>I think you are right. The printer was the C.ITOH 8510.
>
Similar to a DEC LA50?
Regards,
David P.
Michael Roach
Frank McConnell <f...@reanimators.org> wrote:
>On the other tentacle there was the predecessor to the Paper Tiger,
>a thing called the BrighterWriter. It's probably better forgotten,
>but maybe someone will learn from its mistakes.
>
>1) Its carriage was 8.5" wide, but this included the tractor-feed
>holes.
I'm confused. Isn't the carriage the part that carries the print head?
>2) Its graphics mode was entered and exited by sending a 0x03 (^C)
>character to the printer. In graphics mode, the low seven bits of
>bytes sent were used to directly drive print head pins for one
>pin-wide column. So you want only the bottom two pins to fire?
>Whoops, there you are back in text mode.
So fire the bottom pin as often as you need, reenter text mode,
backspace however many characters you need to, reenter graphics mode,
and fire off the next-to-bottom pin as often as you need.
Anyone remember thermal transfer printers? I programmed some black wax
ones for prescription labels[1] and cash drawer printers. Supposedly
it was possible for the printout to be read by magnetic readers but
we never had that application. We also had a color thermal transfer
printer for a while. The wax transfer ribbon was four color. The tractor
would advance the paper 1/4th of a line at a time so each color could be
melted on in sequence.
Don't leave the ribbons in a car on a hot day!
[1] Great printer, wish I could remember what it was. I had horizontal,
vertical, and barcode print on each label. The printer had a serial
number function, so I could send the label as a form, tell it to print x
number of copies, and each label had its own prescription number. This
was for a high volume pharmaceutical prepacking application where the
manufacturer was prepackaging common drugs that require a prescription
for clinics and doctor's offices.
--
Cold, adj.:
When the local flashers are handing out written descriptions.
Mo
wax) ribbons. Either black or four color. Then I have my old Radio Shack
Quick printer, which uses aluminized paper that is a size no one makes
replacements for anymore. That one actually shocks the type into the paper
by means of electrical current. They labeled it a thermal printer though.
Mo
"Michael Roach" <never...@panix.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:b9f6db$ihg$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> In article <b9emiv$2n9$1...@daemonweed.reanimators.org>,
> Frank McConnell <f...@reanimators.org> wrote:
> Anyone remember thermal transfer printers? I programmed some black wax
> ones for prescription labels[1] and cash drawer printers.
.
Glen Herrmannsfeldt
"Frank McConnell" <f...@reanimators.org> wrote in message news:b9emiv$2n9
(snip)
> On the other tentacle there was the predecessor to the Paper Tiger,
> a thing called the BrighterWriter. It's probably better forgotten,
> but maybe someone will learn from its mistakes.
>
> 2) Its graphics mode was entered and exited by sending a 0x03 (^C)
> character to the printer. In graphics mode, the low seven bits of
> bytes sent were used to directly drive print head pins for one
> pin-wide column. So you want only the bottom two pins to fire?
> Whoops, there you are back in text mode.
I used to print on various bit image printers connected to DOS through a
serial port, using the PRINT command. Some characters wouldn't survive
that, such as X'1A', and I believe one other, so I would test for those and
remove one dot, hoping that it wouldn't be noticed.
I think the same solution works for X'03'
-- glen
Charles Richmond
>
> I have a couple of 'em. One is the Okimate 10 which uses the plastic (maybe
> wax) ribbons. Either black or four color. Then I have my old Radio Shack
> Quick printer, which uses aluminized paper that is a size no one makes
> replacements for anymore. That one actually shocks the type into the paper
> by means of electrical current. They labeled it a thermal printer though.
>
to as electrostatic printers...
Frank McConnell
> >1) Its carriage was 8.5" wide, but this included the tractor-feed
> >holes.
>
> I'm confused. Isn't the carriage the part that carries the print head?
It was all fastened together, and I haven't seen the thing in 15 years
and have frankly tried to forget. Anyway, the paper path did not
permit paper wider than 8.5", and this included the tractor holes
because you couldn't move the tractors beyond this span.
> >2) Its graphics mode was entered and exited by sending a 0x03 (^C)
> >character to the printer. In graphics mode, the low seven bits of
> >bytes sent were used to directly drive print head pins for one
> >pin-wide column. So you want only the bottom two pins to fire?
> >Whoops, there you are back in text mode.
>
> So fire the bottom pin as often as you need, reenter text mode,
> backspace however many characters you need to, reenter graphics mode,
> and fire off the next-to-bottom pin as often as you need.
It's been a long time, but I'm thinking that didn't work for several
reasons, such as the printer not backspacing and the printer not being
able to do a carriage return without also doing a linefeed, so no
overprinting unless the paper jammed (which it did).
The workaround was, as another poster suggested, look for this pattern
and drop one bit before sending to the printer.
If this thing was the BrighterWriter, I'm kind of glad I don't know
about its dimmer cousins.
-Frank McConnell
Brian Inglis
McConnell <f...@reanimators.org> wrote:
You couldn't do the print-no-advance dance.
Used to have to do a lot of overprinting to synthesize special
character lookalikes for lineprinters, daisy wheels, and early
laser printers (without soft fonts or graphics) like -\b: +\b_
/\b= <\b_ >\b_ S\b| L\b= C\b= c\b| ^\b| v\b| <\b- >\b- etc?
And character overtype patterns for hard copy terminal passwords?
H\bM\bQ\bW\bX\bZ * 8
Philip Newton
<Brian....@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:
> Used to have to do a lot of overprinting to synthesize special
> character lookalikes for lineprinters, daisy wheels, and early
> laser printers (without soft fonts or graphics) like -\b: +\b_
> /\b= <\b_ >\b_ S\b| L\b= C\b= c\b| ^\b| v\b| <\b- >\b- etc?
What's C\b= ? It looks like a euro sign to me, but I doubt you were
printing lots of those back in the days of "used to have to".
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <nospam...@gmx.li>
That really is my address; no need to remove anything to reply.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Brian Inglis
Philip Newton <pne-news...@newton.digitalspace.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 09 May 2003 06:01:28 GMT, Brian Inglis
><Brian....@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> Used to have to do a lot of overprinting to synthesize special
>> character lookalikes for lineprinters, daisy wheels, and early
>> laser printers (without soft fonts or graphics) like -\b: +\b_
>> /\b= <\b_ >\b_ S\b| L\b= C\b= c\b| ^\b| v\b| <\b- >\b- etc?
>
>What's C\b= ? It looks like a euro sign to me, but I doubt you were
>printing lots of those back in the days of "used to have to".
Good catch! Just thought I throw that in there to see if anyone
was paying attention.
gezn2
"Michael Roach" <never...@panix.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:b9f6db$ihg$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> Frank McConnell <f...@reanimators.org> wrote:
>
> Anyone remember thermal transfer printers? I programmed some black wax
> ones for prescription labels[1] and cash drawer printers. Supposedly
> it was possible for the printout to be read by magnetic readers but
> we never had that application. We also had a color thermal transfer
> printer for a while. The wax transfer ribbon was four color. The tractor
> would advance the paper 1/4th of a line at a time so each color could be
> melted on in sequence.
>
things had both paralell and ethernet ports, ours were spit out of the
company server on the fly. Ten/ twenty phones per overpack, individually box
labelled and an overpack label with correct serial/IMEI numbers.
I got quite fast at changing the thermal tape, autoline *couldnt* stop any
longer than absolutely neccessary.
Motorola was still using them on every packing line until they shut out the
lights and sent what was left of distribution to Texas in march, I assume
the same units are buzzing away in Texas now.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.476 / Virus Database: 273 - Release Date: 4/24/2003
Peter Ingham
<Brian....@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Sat, 10 May 2003 10:56:37 +0200 in alt.folklore.computers,
>Philip Newton <pne-news...@newton.digitalspace.net> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 09 May 2003 06:01:28 GMT, Brian Inglis
>><Brian....@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Used to have to do a lot of overprinting to synthesize special
>>> character lookalikes for lineprinters, daisy wheels, and early
>>> laser printers (without soft fonts or graphics) like -\b: +\b_
>>> /\b= <\b_ >\b_ S\b| L\b= C\b= c\b| ^\b| v\b| <\b- >\b- etc?
>>
>>What's C\b= ? It looks like a euro sign to me, but I doubt you were
>>printing lots of those back in the days of "used to have to".
>
>Good catch! Just thought I throw that in there to see if anyone
>was paying attention.
Commodore logo?
>
>Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada
--
Giles Todd
Wallace) wrote in alt.folklore.computers:
> On Fri, 2 May 2003 03:38:23 -0000, "Dennis Ritchie"
> <d...@bell-labs.com> wrote:
>
> >In the end the calculations agreed to about 950K places.
> >They didn't bother to investigate the discrepancy.
>
> I'd find that highly disconcerting. Did anyone come up with a guess as
> to whether it was likely to be a program bug or hardware glitch?
Oh, come on. In any self-respecting newsgroup, you must at least
entertain the notion that 'e' is wrong.
If you can have rational numbers, irrational numbers, imaginary
numbers etc then why can't you have wrong numbers?
Giles.
Tim Shoppa
> On Fri, 2 May 2003 03:38:23 -0000, "Dennis Ritchie"
> <d...@bell-labs.com> wrote:
>
> >In the end the calculations agreed to about 950K places.
> >They didn't bother to investigate the discrepancy.
>
> I'd find that highly disconcerting. Did anyone come up with a guess as
> to whether it was likely to be a program bug or hardware glitch?
Because if we ever did compute the 950,001st place of "e" then time, as
we know it, would stop. Nature doesn't want to stop time, so it has to
intervene whenever we get close to finding that digit :-)
See "The Nine Billion Names of God" (Asimov) and that Larry Niven story with
the comment about how time machines are possible but nature conspires to
destroy whatever civilization tries to build one.
Tim.
jmfb...@aol.com
sho...@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote:
>wallacet...@eircom.net (Russell Wallace) wrote in message
news:<3eb2dc0c....@news.eircom.net>...
>> On Fri, 2 May 2003 03:38:23 -0000, "Dennis Ritchie"
>> <d...@bell-labs.com> wrote:
>>
>> >In the end the calculations agreed to about 950K places.
>> >They didn't bother to investigate the discrepancy.
>>
>> I'd find that highly disconcerting. Did anyone come up with a guess as
>> to whether it was likely to be a program bug or hardware glitch?
>
>Because if we ever did compute the 950,001st place of "e" then time, as
>we know it, would stop. Nature doesn't want to stop time, so it has to
>intervene whenever we get close to finding that digit :-)
THAT'S IT!!!!! That's the answer. Oh, thank you, thank you,
thank you. Now I know why Murphy is winning; we're at the 949,999th
digit.
>
>See "The Nine Billion Names of God" (Asimov) and that Larry Niven story
with
>the comment about how time machines are possible but nature conspires to
>destroy whatever civilization tries to build one.
I know I must have read those but I can't recall. I'll have to look
them up again.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
arargh...@not.at.enteract.com
That Niven story is called:
"Rotating Cylinders and the Possibility of Global Causality Violation"
and is in the collection "Convergent Series".
I believe that that subject is also covered in an essay in another
book.
--
Arargh at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
Basic Compiler Samples Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/basic.html
To reply by email, change the domain name, and remove the garbage.
Steve O'Hara-Smith
sho...@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote:
TS> Larry Niven story with
TS> the comment about how time machines are possible but nature conspires
TS> to destroy whatever civilization tries to build one.
"Rotating Cylinders and the Possibility of Global Causality
Violation" - IIRC. Unless memory is really playing tricks the title
matches that of the paper in which this particular way of making a time
machine (more like a time road really) was first described mathematically.
--
C:>WIN | Directable Mirrors
The computer obeys and wins. |A Better Way To Focus The Sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licenses available - see:
| http://www.sohara.org/
arargh...@not.at.enteract.com
<ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
>On 12 May 2003 07:03:20 -0700
>sho...@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote:
>
>TS> Larry Niven story with
>TS> the comment about how time machines are possible but nature conspires
>TS> to destroy whatever civilization tries to build one.
>
> "Rotating Cylinders and the Possibility of Global Causality
>Violation" - IIRC. Unless memory is really playing tricks the title
>matches that of the paper in which this particular way of making a time
>machine (more like a time road really) was first described mathematically.
Larry's comment at the start of the story:
"This story has a catchy title. I stole it from a
mathematics paper br Frank J. Tipler."
Roberto Waltman
>See "The Nine Billion Names of God" (Asimov) ...
Ehem!, Not Asimov but Arthur Clarke. ("The other
2nd best SF writer...")
Roberto Waltman
Dr Ivan D. Reid
wrote in <b9pd2h$f7v$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>:
www.geocities.com/rojodos/docs/9000000000.htm
(or google on: nine billion names wagner)
--
Ivan Reid, Electronic & Computer Eng., Brunel Uni. Ivan...@brunel.ac.uk
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins
>CBFalconer <cbfal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>C> The only reason for an inkjet is color. Their operating costs and
>C> reliability are out of this world, in the evilest sense.
> I have found that the reliability of inkjets is variable, some
>are crud but the one on my desk now has been fine for a good while now and
>sports a duplexer which is nice. Cost per page is nearly irrelevant to me,
>because total annual printing costs are minimal. It isn't colour so much
>as versatility that sends me to the inkjets, lasers are for bulk.
I have an HP DeskWriter (the mac version of the deskjet) out of the
first batch to hit San Diego that included appletalk (I called a couple
of times a week :). It ran dependably from when I bought it (late 90
or early 91) until I stopped using macs for full time unix (and never
quite found the time to build the funny cable to connect it to a pc).
However, the spring in the paper bin eventually needed to be fortified,
but I was able to put another on the side of the tray to help it.
Yes, this printer ran until the spring that supported its paper tray had
been weakened by too many cycles.
hawk
--
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign
doc...@psu.edu Smeal 178 (814) 375-4700 \ / against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of X and postings.
Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \
Steve O'Hara-Smith
ha...@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote:
DREH> However, the spring in the paper bin eventually needed to be
DREH> fortified, but I was able to put another on the side of the tray to
DREH> help it.
DREH>
DREH> Yes, this printer ran until the spring that supported its paper tray
DREH> had been weakened by too many cycles.
Something has to be the weakest part - not a bad choice :)
Russell Wallace
wrote:
>See "The Nine Billion Names of God" (Asimov) and that Larry Niven story with
>the comment about how time machines are possible but nature conspires to
>destroy whatever civilization tries to build one.
(Clarke, not Asimov. And, "Rotating cylinders and the possibility of
global causality violation." That one was good!)
Though I think the Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy may provide an
even better analogy.
--
"Sore wa himitsu desu."
To reply by email, remove
the small snack from address.
http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace
Tim Shoppa
> On 12 May 2003 07:03:20 -0700
> sho...@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote:
>
> TS> Larry Niven story with
> TS> the comment about how time machines are possible but nature conspires
> TS> to destroy whatever civilization tries to build one.
>
> "Rotating Cylinders and the Possibility of Global Causality
> Violation" - IIRC.
Yeah that was it. (And thanks to others for pointing out my Asimov vs
Clarke mistake).
Niven mentions the concept of a self-censoring universe in at least one other
story... I think as a kind-of parenthetical remark in one of the "Known
Space" series, although I cannot rule out a parenthetical comment in
_The Mote in God's Eye_ (there's a lot of weird hints about Motie pre-
history and "religions").
Tim.
Gene Wirchenko
Essay Question: Is this an appropriate use of technology?
Support your answer.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
Alexandre Peshansky
And for those interested in an exhaustive discourse on the topic ;-) there is a
short novel "A Billion Years prior to the End of World"[1] by Arcady & Boris
Strugatsky. It even has quanta in form of gorgeous blondes and burly strangers
used by Universe to stop too inquisitive humans ;-)
[1] Unfortunately, LoC doesn't show any translations available; the original
Russian title is "Za milliard let do kontsa sveta".
--
[ When replying, remove *'s from address ]
Alexandre Peshansky, Systems Manager, RUH, NY
(note last name spelling change)
Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
>And for those interested in an exhaustive discourse on the topic ;-) there is a
I posted an essay question. Does that count?
>short novel "A Billion Years prior to the End of World"[1] by Arcady & Boris
>Strugatsky. It even has quanta in form of gorgeous blondes and burly strangers
>used by Universe to stop too inquisitive humans ;-)
>
>[1] Unfortunately, LoC doesn't show any translations available; the original
>Russian title is "Za milliard let do kontsa sveta".
That sounds familiar. If so, there was a translation. I found
it boring and tossed it aside.
Steve O'Hara-Smith
ge...@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote:
GW> Essay Question: Is this an appropriate use of technology?
GW> Support your answer.
o Y E S o
+++++++++
+++++++
+++++
+++
+++
+++
+++
+++++
+++++++++++
+++++++++++
Alexandre Peshansky
>Alexandre Peshansky <alex*@*mail.rockefeller.edu> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>And for those interested in an exhaustive discourse on the topic ;-) there is a
>
> I posted an essay question. Does that count?
:-)
>>short novel "A Billion Years prior to the End of World"[1] by Arcady & Boris
>>Strugatsky. It even has quanta in form of gorgeous blondes and burly strangers
>>used by Universe to stop too inquisitive humans ;-)
>>
>>[1] Unfortunately, LoC doesn't show any translations available; the original
>>Russian title is "Za milliard let do kontsa sveta".
>
> That sounds familiar. If so, there was a translation. I found
>it boring and tossed it aside.
Probably lost in the translation - original was good, as practically everything
Strugatsky brothers wrote.
Gene Wirchenko
>On Thu, 15 May 2003 05:00:29 GMT, ge...@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko) wrote:
>
>>Alexandre Peshansky <alex*@*mail.rockefeller.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>>>[1] Unfortunately, LoC doesn't show any translations available; the original
>>>Russian title is "Za milliard let do kontsa sveta".
>>
>> That sounds familiar. If so, there was a translation. I found
>>it boring and tossed it aside.
>
>Probably lost in the translation - original was good, as practically everything
>Strugatsky brothers wrote.
I do not know. I have read some foreign SF, admittedly not much.
I think it has all been boring. I do not know if it is bad
translation or that I am not the target market (cultural differences).
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchekno
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins
Gene Wirchenko <ge...@mail.ocis.net> wrote:
>Alexandre Peshansky <alex*@*mail.rockefeller.edu> wrote:
>>Probably lost in the translation - original was good, as practically everything
>>Strugatsky brothers wrote.
> I do not know. I have read some foreign SF, admittedly not much.
>I think it has all been boring. I do not know if it is bad
>translation or that I am not the target market (cultural differences).
In spite of warnings from Twain, I read some translated French SF that I
bought by accident. I didn't know anyone used deus ex machina any more
. . . while one had a clever idea (what would have happened had the
Knights Templar actually cut an un-Holy deal?), I'm left with the
impression that "French science fiction" belongs in the same category as
"British Cuisine" :)
Alexandre Peshansky
E. Hawkins) wrote:
>In article <3ec505a...@news.ocis.net>,
>Gene Wirchenko <ge...@mail.ocis.net> wrote:
>>Alexandre Peshansky <alex*@*mail.rockefeller.edu> wrote:
>
>>>Probably lost in the translation - original was good, as practically everything
>>>Strugatsky brothers wrote.
>
>> I do not know. I have read some foreign SF, admittedly not much.
>>I think it has all been boring. I do not know if it is bad
>>translation or that I am not the target market (cultural differences).
>
>In spite of warnings from Twain, I read some translated French SF that I
>bought by accident. I didn't know anyone used deus ex machina any more
>. . . while one had a clever idea (what would have happened had the
>Knights Templar actually cut an un-Holy deal?), I'm left with the
>impression that "French science fiction" belongs in the same category as
>"British Cuisine" :)
Oh, come on, you can't mean that! Did you forget Pierre Boole's "The Planet of
Apes"? (And I don't mean the movie either!)
Steve Burton
(Dr. Richard E. Hawkins) wrote:
>In article <3ec505a...@news.ocis.net>,
>Gene Wirchenko <ge...@mail.ocis.net> wrote:
>>Alexandre Peshansky <alex*@*mail.rockefeller.edu> wrote:
>
>>>Probably lost in the translation - original was good, as practically everything
>>>Strugatsky brothers wrote.
>
>> I do not know. I have read some foreign SF, admittedly not much.
>>I think it has all been boring. I do not know if it is bad
>>translation or that I am not the target market (cultural differences).
>
I've read quite a lot of foreign SF in my time, most of it American
but I've read some Jules Verne (in translation) and that wasn't so
bad. I couldn't realy say that foreign SF is boring....
Steve.
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Alexandre Peshansky <alex*@*mail.rockefeller.edu> wrote:
AP> Oh, come on, you can't mean that! Did you forget Pierre Boole's "The
AP> Planet of Apes"? (And I don't mean the movie either!)
I try to.
Jeff York
>If you can have rational numbers, irrational numbers, imaginary
>numbers etc then why can't you have wrong numbers?
You can.. But they're only used in the design of telephone switching
systems.
--
Jeff. Ironbridge, Shrops, U.K.
je...@jakfield.xu-netx.com (remove the x..x round u-net for return address)
... "There are few hours in life more agreeable
than the hour dedicated to the ceremony
known as afternoon tea.."
Henry James, (1843 - 1916).
Pete Fenelon
> You can.. But they're only used in the design of telephone switching
> systems.
Oh my - fancy meeting you here! Is rasf1 invading this group ;) -
Andreas posts here too from time to time ;)
pete
--
pe...@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB
Pete Fenelon
> impression that "French science fiction" belongs in the same category as
> "British Cuisine" :)
>
I think Sturgeon's law applies recursively to French sf - although I do
have one very good anthology cherrypicked by Max Jakubowski called
"Travelling Towards Epsilon".
A lot of more "serious" French sf is apparently heavily political
and leans towards structuralism - getting rid of all that tedious
'sense of wonder' nonesense ;P - then again, they love PKD and Norman
Spinrad over there so at least there's some hope for them!
Tim Shoppa
> On Fri, 16 May 2003 18:07:16 +0000 (UTC), ha...@slytherin.ds.psu.edu (Dr. Richard
> E. Hawkins) wrote:
> >In spite of warnings from Twain, I read some translated French SF that I
> >bought by accident. I didn't know anyone used deus ex machina any more
> >. . . while one had a clever idea (what would have happened had the
> >Knights Templar actually cut an un-Holy deal?), I'm left with the
> >impression that "French science fiction" belongs in the same category as
> >"British Cuisine" :)
>
> Oh, come on, you can't mean that! Did you forget Pierre Boole's "The Planet of
> Apes"? (And I don't mean the movie either!)
You mean, the Broadway Musical, starring Troy McClure?
(See the bottom of http://www.spleenworld.com/apes/audiomain.html )
Tim.
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
cbfal...@worldnet.att.net "CBFalconer" writes:
> Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
> >
> ... snip ...
> >
> > I can heartily recommend http://www.fixyourownprinter.com and Moe's
> > excellent "hand-holding".
>
> Looks useful. However I can get nothing from their message
> searching facility except a summary list. The individual messages
> are just blanks.
It seemed to work for me with _some_ messages; however, for those that
have the string "(Archived)" in the <TITLE>, it appears that there is
some very cruddy HTML present (validator.w3.org shows about 120 errors
par page). I suspect that the HTML is sufficiently invalid (probably in
a <TABLE>) that Nutscrape cannot display it (the information IS there, if
one uses View Source).
Are you using Nutscrape?
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} b...@dsl.co.uk
"We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are
untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them".
George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919
Jeff York
>Jeff York <pog...@talk21.com> wrote:
>> You can.. But they're only used in the design of telephone switching
>> systems.
>
>Oh my - fancy meeting you here! Is rasf1 invading this group ;) -
>Andreas posts here too from time to time ;)
I'm amazed that they allow children like you in here, young Fenelon!
As I started as a junior stoker on a Univac 1004 I find reading this
group a splendid nostalgia trip.. I doubt that you even pre-date
integrated circuits! :-)
Graham Hodgson
> Jeff York <pog...@talk21.com> wrote:
>
>>You can.. But they're only used in the design of telephone switching
>>systems.
>
>
> Oh my - fancy meeting you here! Is rasf1 invading this group ;) -
> Andreas posts here too from time to time ;)
Hmm, stumbled across here the other day...
More of a reading room for me ;)
Cheers
Graham
Larry Jones
>
> The workaround was, as another poster suggested, look for this pattern
> and drop one bit before sending to the printer.
Couldn't you just set the otherwise unused 8th bit (e.g., send 0x83
rather than 0x03)? That was the usual trick to avoid misinterpreting
data as a command with such brain-damaged protocols.
-Larry Jones
I've got an idea for a sit-com called "Father Knows Zilch." -- Calvin
Michael Roach
gezn2 <ge...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>"Michael Roach" <never...@panix.com.invalid> wrote in message
>news:b9f6db$ihg$1...@reader1.panix.com...
>> In article <b9emiv$2n9$1...@daemonweed.reanimators.org>,
>> Frank McConnell <f...@reanimators.org> wrote:
>>
><snip>
>> Anyone remember thermal transfer printers? I programmed some black wax
>> ones for prescription labels[1] and cash drawer printers. Supposedly
>> it was possible for the printout to be read by magnetic readers but
>> we never had that application. We also had a color thermal transfer
>> printer for a while. The wax transfer ribbon was four color. The tractor
>> would advance the paper 1/4th of a line at a time so each color could be
>> melted on in sequence.
>>
>Was printing box and shipping labels with Zebra units until the layoff, the
^^^^^
Yeah, that's the one. I told the client Zebra could have called their
feature, "Cool Slew". With each label I was also vertically printing
barcodes, lot numbers, warnings from the drug database I also developed,
and the logo. If the clinic or practice gave us a logo, we could store
it in the customer database and use that instead. I don't remember how
we got the logos, deskjet scanners weren't available yet.
--
Everyone can be taught to sculpt: Michelangelo would have had to be
taught how ___ not to. So it is with the great programmers.
Michael Roach
Brian Inglis <Brian....@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:
>And character overtype patterns for hard copy terminal passwords?
>H\bM\bQ\bW\bX\bZ * 8
I remember "MHWMHW..." for selectrics attached to the PDP-10. After
the first pass there would be a CR with no LF, the sequence would repeat
starting from H, then do it all again starting with W. I also remember
stealing passwords typed before the above sequence started printing, or
from VT05's before the no-echo kicked in ;^)
--
On-line, adj.:
The idea that a human being should always be accessible to a
computer.
Glen Herrmannsfeldt
"Michael Roach" <never...@panix.com.invalid> wrote in message
> In article <iqfmbvsmula874tqj...@4ax.com>,
> Brian Inglis <Brian....@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:
> >And character overtype patterns for hard copy terminal passwords?
> >H\bM\bQ\bW\bX\bZ * 8
>
> I remember "MHWMHW..." for selectrics attached to the PDP-10. After
> the first pass there would be a CR with no LF, the sequence would repeat
> starting from H, then do it all again starting with W. I also remember
> stealing passwords typed before the above sequence started printing, or
> from VT05's before the no-echo kicked in ;^)
The discussion of 2741 password masking is also in the Hercules group, as
related to how VM/370 does it. The discussion there says that 2741's can't
CR without LF, but they can (and I am sure about this) backspace. All the
ones I even knew used backspace for this function. At the end of a password
prompt, it would be faster, too.
-- glen
David Wade
news:Or7Ba.775695$Zo.160864@sccrnsc03...
They sure could backspace, but the mechanism did not like it. I rememver a
program that spaced across the full width of the carrage and then backspaced
all the way back. The poor 2741 was not a happy bunny and jumped about
(physically that is, it always backspaced properly) much to the disguist of
the Ops Staff in the next room. Perhaps it disturbed their afternoon nap???
>
> -- glen
>
>